Biggest story misconceptions in Final Fantasy: The real villains of FF7, FF12 & FF13? *spoilers*

It's no fresh news that the Japanese know how to craft a crazy RPG story or two. Final fantasy is no difference and to this day, huge misconceptions exist even on who the main villain is. In celebration of 30th / 20th anniversary FFVII remake hype, I will do my best to see the dynamic of Sephiroth and Jenova explained. For FFXII zodiac age remaster hype I will cover wether Vayne could be the hero of the plot and Ashe the villain. Then rounding out with FFXIII Fal'cie, L'cie and the mad lore that is fabula nova crystallis.
Spoilers for the ost soundtrack, gameplay, cutscene, cinematics and ending of all 3 games. Enjoy!
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[@bennybeck]

Hojo is the main villain of 7 he's the true cause of everyone's misfortune

[@LakrimaProject]

In some way you might be more right then you think ;> But to be honest FF 7 has many villains anyway, who is more and who is less is not that important I think.

[@ff7soldierff7]

FF7 is more a story about corruption by taking things from others for their own gain/ideas. FF12 its story is just like how we live. Everyone tries to do good for their own people for the sake of others, and that's why I love FF12. FF13... nah the story was good but after XIII-2 it was rubbish so I didn't finish FF13-3. Actually I never finished the 13 saga because it's not my type of game.

[@yojimarusilverfang]

Chee Rpgg It could also be said that FF7 is a story about the dangers of acting on shoddy research. Jenovah deceived the Shinra scientists, making them think she was an Ancient. they went off that incorrect data and used her cells to make human weapons. Hojo, the total bastard that he is, doesn't tell his own son about the truth of his mother. Sephiroth begins to question his humanity, stumbles on the faulty research, is driven mad by it and commits atrocities as a result. All his life, Sephiroth was led astray by lies. He's truly a tragic and pitiable character. I never picked up on that theme in the story when I was young and first playing the game, but now that I'm older and replaying the game, it really jumped out at me because of similar things happening irl.

[@LakrimaProject]

Well fun part is .... in Original game, Hojo is on control of many things, maybe even Presiden Shinra. You see JENOVA project was basicly ment to produce a supersoldiers. But not by making superhumans, enchancments were done with MAKO not JENOVA cells. JENOVA cells was implented to CONTROL them, and only 1st Class SOLDIERS had JENOVA cells implented. Whole program was to select strongest and most deadly of them and took full control over them. But all that was changed in Crisis Core, since Zack was alwayas mambling about some honor or something. Honor of a death squad under a evil corp? Eh ok? But we know that Compilation games are crap anyway and dont stick too much to anything. Ofc Hojo is based on mad scientists like Eduard Wirths .

[@alxjones]

Hojo is basically Dr. Frankenstein

[@Chimpy_Mc_Gibbon]

13 had such a detailed back story but none of it was communicated during the game, you get to the end and have no idea who you are fighting or why really. Square always come up with interestring worlds and stories but can never communicate them

[@PiPArtemis]

Definitely had the biggest clusterfuck of a story and it really dragged the game down for me I was willing to look past the (pretty boring, imo) combat system but the story was all over the fucking place and because neither aspect of the game felt very good I've never been able to finish any of the 13 series.

[@blackchase6732]

@@PiPArtemis cluster fuck did you even understand the storry or it connection to the fnc

[@Neofabitch]

I'd say only XII, the XIII trilogy and XV were like that. The rest of the series was very well explored.

[@bootesvoid1275]

XIII was the nail in the coffin for the FF series.

[@baschlives9252]

Ff12 is one of my favorite stories in video games or any media because it operates in the moral gray area. So many say its a Star Wars like story and in a way it is but FF12 isn't about Light vs Dark its Gray vs Gray! Matsuno is a master of this as this is also the case in Final Fantasy Tactics!

[@RockingtheRaikou]

Basch Lives I love FF12 and thought the story was good. But you can tell that the story just kinda stops towards late game and is very rushed.

[@adrammelechthewroth6511]

Good point.

[@Nyonics]

I'm going to ask for your help understanding some things then since you love FFXII so much. Backstory: my friend is awesome and as a gift for being a groomsman in his wedding gave me some video games back in 2011. One of them was FFXII. I played through it, and did everything except Yiazmat and Zodiark, but I was unimpressed with some characters' motivations. At the time (and I have not replayed it since), I wrote things like this: "So Cid doesn't like history to be guided by occurians. Venat likes to shit and giggle and help him out because the other occurians never let him play their reindeer games? Or something? Vayne just wants to smash stuff and feel good about himself? If any of these people were believable characters I might have cared more. None of them really have a decent motivation or any kind of redeeming qualities. Cid comes the closest, but nobody ever explains the why or the what-gives behind his opinion on the occurians and why humans have to be liberated from divine shackles. I can understand the "we're not puppets" business, but it's implemented poorly here. For a better example of how that plot can be done well, check out Valkyrie Profile 2 and pay attention to Brahms. Dear Ashe--please do this for us. Why? Wouldn't you like to know!? But we're not telling. Dear occurians--no. I will do almost exactly the same as my current opponent and give you the finger. Then I will give him the finger. Then what happens? Shit if I know. At the end of this game, Dalmasca is free again and on peaceful terms with the Archadian empire. But what became of all the occurian business they introduced into the plot? Only the occurians themselves know, 'cause we sure don't. What significance has the sundering of the sun cryst? Is anything metaphysical explained? No. Even Venat didn't explain to Vayne what was going on, just BOOM! All of a sudden he possesses him and you have a last boss. Cid was hoping to accomplish what, exactly? Venat was hoping to accomplish what, exactly? Vayne was hoping to accomplish what, exactly? What was the point to all of those plot elements if there was to be no resolution? And I knew by the time I was done at Pharos there wasn't going to be a resolution, but I saw it through anyway. This game didn't end, they just ran out of budget. These villains suck. Even Dracula has a REASON he hates god. (and on that note, I'd be pretty upset if he killed my wife unfairly too.) If you're going to have a villain like Cid who hates god, either tell us why or expect us to lump him in with suburban emo kids."

[@Nyonics]

That's boring and not worth my time, and I was really asking Basch Lives and not you.

[@RexZShadow]

I'm Basch fon Ronsenburg of Dalmasca! That is ingraved in my mine from that one quest xD

[@MrMathGames]

FF12: No, sorry, that argument has always been a load of crap. Vayne is, indeed, a power-hungry megalomaniac only out for his own gain. He literally committed genocide against Nebradia, attacked Delmasca without provocation, then murdered the Delmascan king while he was figuratively under a white flag, all merely to get the pieces of the Suncrist. The fact that he met the bare minimum requirements while governing Delmasca does not change any of that. Seriously, he enforced the law and reigned in his guards, thus "solving" a problem that his conquest had created in the first place? Big deal. Shall we give him a biscuit? And yes, Ashe was following that same path, but the game made it pretty clear that her actions were morally grey at best. And in the end, she rejected that path. As for the Occuria, they are something of a big question mark, because they don't actually do very much. They try to manipulate Ashe into fighting fire with fire and becoming Raithwall's successor as the next Dynast monarch, and that's about it. Meanwhile, Vayne killed (probably) millions of people, incited war with the Rosarian Empire, and basically sought to conquer the whole known world. I suppose if we were to look at the bigger picture, it could be argued that Vayne and the Occuria were equally villains in the story. The Occuria's villainy was much longer term, while Vayne's was happening right now. One could say that they were basically waging war against each other and the entire world was caught in the crossfire. That would definitely be an understandable point of view. But to suggest that Vayne is not really a villain and that Ashe is? No. That's utter crap.

[@sohtak7208]

Pez? I LOVE YOU for doing more 13 stuff! I know 15 is more relevant and will bring in more views and all that good stuff. But it makes me really happy and I love that a big FF personality is giving 13 the credit it deserves instead of just blind hate of "WAHHHH it's not 4,6,7,8,9,10!" "It's not a REAL FF" etc etc. You need to do more 13 stuff, us fans are out there!

[@GKid139]

You talk about FF XII like you've never played it before. 1. Ashe determines on her own accord, by defying her love Rasler, that she must destroy the Cryst in order to destroy any power that great, which could possibly enslave man. a power that Vayne himself wanted, in order to... you know ENSLAVE MAN. Reddas doing it was necessary because A) He alone had the physical strength to do it. and B) it serves as Ashe's key shift, rather than take on the world/empire alone, in order to rule alone, she had to rely on people that she otherwise would never have trusted under any other circumstances. Balthier - Sky Pirate and son of Archadia. Vaan - a thief who stole her prized heirloom. and Basch - The man she believes betrayed her kingdom and killed her father. (As an aside, Reddas is all 3 of those things. A Sky Pirate son of Archadia, who stole a royal heirloom in order to kill a king/kingdom) Ashe was never going to rule, or be a worthy monarch until she learned to cast off vengeance, and trust again. that's her whole arc as a character. 2. Vayne kills his father, (and brothers) defies the justice system put in place, and seeks to hoard and weaponize what is essentially Ivalices equivalent to Nuclear Weaponry, so that he can attack another empire (Rozarria) and attempt to take them over as well. Forget about the "history back in the hands of man" bit for half a second, and see that this is war mongering, in order to accumulate as much power as possible. as for the hands of man thing, Vayne recognizes that the only thing capable of completely stopping him, is if the Occuria assign someone the weapon necessary to create nethicite that can be used against him. He wants the Occuria gone, and for history to be "back in the hands of man", so that he will be unstoppable, and rule as a new Dynast-King. He didn't want history in the "hands" of man, he wanted it in the "hand" of man. his hand alone. He is a more political and boring Kefka, he wanted to be God. Also, suggesting that an "Empire" has elected officials makes no sense I'd be fine if you said that Venat, is the real villain, or even to say that the Occuria are, but to say that Ashe and the party are, makes absolutely no logical sense.

[@miguelcondadoolivar5149]

I'd say he's a more interesting version of Kefka...

[@seprithlicastia463]

But Vayne spent the entire game trying to get Larsa to kill him. I always figured he wanted to defeat the Occuria, defeat Rozaria (which was as militant as Archadia), and start a reign of stability and then turn everything over to Larsa. He never seemed to personally want any power outside of what was necessary for the plan. Conversely, Ashe spends almost the whole game doing exactly what the Occuria want. Admitetly, she does eventually realize this and stops, but for the majority of the game...

[@MrKaleen]

You know I love the Final Fantasy fanbase at times, but I also hate it at times. The amount of people I see/read complaining about lack of gameplay in one game and lack of story in another, and yet no one seems to appreciate the positives of the games. After FF12, Square had mixed receptions to their new Battle system, and after a wait wanted to return to what made Final Fantasy lovable at its core - what made FFVII so great - an atb turn based combat system and a game story DRIVEN. Then after release of the FF13 trilogy (all probably pre-planned in very early stages), a majority of people goes and hates on Squares' attempt to create a complex interesting universe to explore, saying "the gameplay is so boring" , and "there's too many cutscenes and too many soppy (real) emotions with the characters" and "I don't understand it cause it doesn't tell me everything I need to know about the universe at the beginning of the game". THEN Square sees this, and Tabata decided the people's opinions were important to creating a great final fantasy game. So he proceeds to create FF15 (in the time allotted) which is Gameplay driven, open world driven, full of places to explore and giving the player full control, things that lacked in FF13 and things people complained about HEAVILY in FF13. They made a slightly less complicated story, and in the end less story cutscenes, with much less hidden lore behind the game than in 13 (especially with the additional content like kingsglaive) - all of which was squares attempt to create context for a still essential-to-the-franchise fantastical world and help people understand the game they've created, which they've tailored to the modern audience through everyone's comments and feedback. Then of course, what do FF fans do? Complain. "There's not enough story" well you hated that about 13. "Why do I have to watch a movie and an anime" well you wanted more context with 13, and they managed to pull as much as they could together in the time they had for you, and still provided exterior context after the fact. "The gameplay isn't like final fantasy at all, and the fetch quests suck" well you wanted a more explorable and immersive world than 13 had, and you thought the 13 gameplay was stale, boring and un-engaging. All I wish for would be for the majority of fans to understand and appreciate the separate games for their qualities instead of what they lack, as it seems that no matter what Square do, and whoever directs the game, they will never make a perfect game, and everyone will always latch onto the what the FF in question lacks instead of the bountiful qualities that make it a great game, which a lot of people just ignore. Sorry for the rant, and thanks to anyone who gave this comment the time of day to read :) great video as always Pez

[@Sheechiibii]

MrKalleen Not 'everyone' otherwise that'd include yourself, and Pez, and all the others who like XIII. What you're really saying is that literally everybody should like every game that they buy, or if they don't they should shut up about it and only talk about it's flaws. I'm sure you never complain when you buy something and it turns out you don't like it. Never seen a movie, tv show, book, game and said it's not good?

[@ff7soldierff7]

I liked FF12 and every other FF before it but 13 (even though the hidden lore is interesting) the game as a whole is lacking the adventure feel that I like in RPG games. But don't underestimate FF12 in hidden lore and the lore about the world because FF12's world is the same one as in FF TACTICS series and revenant wings which makes it a very big story as a whole.

[@ff7soldierff7]

Nah I liked the FF12 style more, it was more true to the original FF's and the battle system was more fun to experiment with.

[@arziel340]

MrKalleen i want good Story and Gameplay. So is logical that 13 and 15 not the great games which they could be. But i like FF 13 and 15. And by FF15 i missed Noctis xStella fight and more dark elements from Numora. But i not say FF 15 is bad. I only say it was designed in beginning to be the best( dark setting/Story and Shakespeare elements) This is my point of criticism. And FF 13 is ok and for me only first Game i missed mini games. But the trilogy was enjoyable:) In Final Fantasy 12 i like the combat system so hart, many tactics ( item like Accessories,shield can be changing in battle) and gambit programming for auto tactics in long battle is cool. So in the end i like all 3 last FF : 12,13,15 and for me they are real FF like other FF too. My favorite FF is : Final Fantasy 9 and second 8. Final Fantasy 7 is only of 3th best with FF 6 together ^^ Lg from Germany

[@MrKaleen]

@ff7soldierff7 I like FF12 as well, and I don't disagree with you, and I never bashed FF12 - all I was saying is that all the Final Fantasy games are flawed in some way, and instead on focusing on those flaws as fans we should be focusing on what makes the games great. And unfortunately this has only become apparent with the new titles such as the 13 trilogy and 15 which is why I mentioned them.

[@vulpinedeity3379]

I would argue that Hojo is 7's true villain, though not the antagonist from a purely narrative standpoint.

[@foxshear]

Too legit. Everything is his fault.

[@Level_1_Frog]

You are completely incorrect in regards to FFXII. Firstly, he is absolutely attempting to amass power for himself and cares not a lick for the rest of mankind. This is apparent by him executing two of his brothers, murdering his father, imprisoning the Archadian consul and becoming the Emperor of Archadia until he decides not to be anymore. Not to mention he started the entire war to get the Dusk & Midlight shards and explore their power. Secondly, he only managed to win over the people of Rabanastre by framing Basch for the murder of their beloved king, thereby making them turn on one of their own and trusting Vayne into bringing them justice, and throwing the starving people of Rabanastre a feast to show good faith, even though Archaida is keeping a stranglehold on the nation and can be assumed is denying the people food in the first place AND the fete was used a setup to capture the Resistance forces anyway. And what do you mean in his lifetime? HE'S CALLED THE UNDYING! Something about that name implies that he won't be kicking the bucket for quite a while. And I can only imagine what being ruled by a megalomaniacal metal-dragon-zombie who's obsessed with the fantasy version of nuclear warheads would be like, but we can assume it wouldn't be all sunshine and rainbows. I will say that Ashe is a selfish and easily manipulated character at the beginning of the story, but she grows into the role of a savior. A character weakness gives her depth. At least she isn't outright evil. The difference is Ashe is unaware of the Occuria and their influence over her, whereas Vayne is aware of them and is in full, deliberate control of his actions. Plus, what did he think was going to happen when he kills the newly wed husband of the heir to the Dynast King's lineage? Basically, an interesting idea, but one that is easily refuted by events in the game.

[@TenchiHawkwing]

A couple of corrections for you. Vayne and Venat were in fact trying to take control back from the Occuria. Venat maybe moreso than Vayne, who can say? Just listen to the lines before the final battle if you want proof. "Vayne: Venat! [Venat appears] I have failed us both. I am no Dynast-King. You must find another. One who might realize your ambitions. Venat: They are fulfilled beyond your knowing. The Cryst is sundered, Age of Stones, complete. From the Undying ones the world is freed. You shall not tread this path alone. Together we go, come..." And the second correction also comes from this. Vayne was NOT The Undying until he merged with Venat as a last-ditch effort to beat the party. There's nothing stating he'd have been immortal had similar events not occurred. What is clear, however, is that Venat felt some sort of camaraderie with Vayne and may possibly have offered him immortality by some means but that's mere speculation.

[@Level_1_Frog]

TenchiHawkwing I was under the impression that the three, Vayne, Cid and Venat worked together from the beginning to usurp the Occuria. I could be wrong on this but from the actions of all three I don't see why this wouldn't be the case. As for him becoming the Undying to stop the party- who's to say that wasn't his intention anyway? He must have gathered all that mist and nethicite for a reason, and he knew how to become Vayne Novus without the aid of Venat. Whether his Novus form grants him an extended life is uncertain, but clearly he had some idea of morphing his being into something more powerful. Although I will grant that this could merely be a coincidence, and he only figured out he could change his form after he gathered all that power. But yeah you're right, these points could theoretically go either way. I'm still of the opinion that Vayne is a psychopath that has virtually no charity in his heart, especially after he smacks Larsa, the only person he said he'd never harm.

[@TenchiHawkwing]

Well, their basic intentions are pretty much laid bare in those couple of lines. Venat wanted to (for some reason) free the world from the control of the Occuria. It doesn't seem that Vayne fully understood this since he didn't realize they'd already done what Venat wanted hence her saying "They are fulfilled beyond your knowing." Essentially, Venat won. She chose to die with Vayne there with her mission fully completed. The line that Vayne says after all that "Won't Cid be eager to learn what has happened here" leads me to believe he knew they were about to die at the hands of the party and yet he didn't seem to be angry or disappointed or anything. That whole end part really makes me think Vayne is just following Venat's orders without fully understanding why. Cid seems to have been a lot more knowledgeable about what was going on than Venat and Cid didn't seem ill-intentioned... just overly zealous. What Vayne 'actually' wanted, outside of giving Venat what she wants, isn't very clearly defined. It's weird.

[@RexZShadow]

I feel like Vayne mentality was for the greater good sacrifice would be needed. He had to remove his brothers, his father, and the consul so he has full control of the country to get what he needed done. Sure people will die and suffer but the end goal was freeing humanity which seem to be on a much higher importance. And he not about being just or rightous its about getting the job done and in truth is goal is overall good.

[@dubiousspacehamster3833]

If Vayne's main concern was to liberate mankind from the Occuria, you'd think that instead of wiping out the monarchy of one land, killing his own father, letting Bergan kill the Gran Kiltias, and making enemies of his own people (his little brother and a few of his own judges included), he'd be working to get everyone on the same page. Yes, he wants mankind to be free of the Occuria, but whatever good that might do is warped by the fact that he wants to be the equivalent of a NEW Occuria. I don't think "he's charming and he doesn't want to murder EVERYONE" classifies him as a good guy. He's only a few steps away from Kefka as far as I'm concerned, only slightly less crazy and a lot less entertaining.

[@patricpelto]

Wooow Wooow hold on.... a Few steps from Kefka? That is waaaaaay over the moral line already xD

[@Tommygunnz219]

Exactly. Vayne was nothing more than a sociopathic snake. Trying to make him out as the hero legit upset me lolz.

[@tomasgarcia7499]

This!

[@Omega-jg4oq]

@Old Toby AND HE KILLED MY BROTHER!!!

[@mitch4904]

rofl holy shit the people that legit think Vayne is the hero and ask "would it be that bad" are the same ones that would agree that France should've surrendered because "would it really be that bad". god damn thats such a fucking awful take on the plot of XII.

[@forrestcatlett2708]

You should do a 13 trilogy/type 0 lore dive in!

[@ChillnTurtle]

MORE 13 VIDS PLEASE! I need the "hidden lore" of this game explained thoroughly..

[@jd_9144]

SergeantAnonymous agree

[@wndyd95]

I having played all the XIII, I barely know the lore. I need someone to spoon feed it to me

[@randoMMise666]

Oh, I do love me some FFXIII lore. Here's the proper starting point around which everything revolves: So from FFXIII-2, we find out the universe of Fabula Nova Crystallis exists in three realms - that of the living, the unseen realm of the dead and Valhalla, the realm between the two. There began two gods, Bhunivelze and his mother Mwynn. Bhunivelze wants total control over the mortal realm, and slays his own mother, sending her to the unseen realm. Despite his newfound total control, Bhunivelze feels troubled (the things matricide will do for you) and becomes paranoid, fearing Mwynn had put a curse on the world. To ease his mind, Bhunivelze desires to finish off his mother once and for all, but in order to reach the unseen realm, he would have to give up his current power. So, he creates three deities to assist him - Pulse, Etro and Lindzei - before putting himself into crystal sleep. Pulse is tasked with finding the gate to the unseen realm whilst Lindzei is tasked with protecting the universe (and Bhunivelze) and was to be the one to awaken Bhunivelze when the gate was found. Etro however, was created in Mwynn's image, and so Bhunivelze stripped her of all her powers. In her sadness and as a desperate plea to Bhunivelze, Etro tore herself apart and disappeared to the unseen realm. Her blood was later used by Lindzei to create humans. Etro enters Valhalla to find Mwynn being consumed by Chaos. With her dying breath, Mwynn tasks Etro with keeping the balance of the world. In the meantime, Pulse and Lindzei create fal'Cie to aid in their search of the gate. Pulsian fal'Cie search the land, seas and skies for the gate (that's why Atomos digs his tunnels, Dahaka flies the skies, etc.) They are also distinctly Darwinian in nature, believing in survival of the fittest, whilst keeping balance to the world. Lindzei on the other hand has a far more duplicitous scheme. Though initially only tasked with protecting the universe and Bhunivelze, s/he develops an interest in finding the gate for Bhunivelze. Upon death, the humans s/he made pass into Valhalla, and so Lindzei constructs a plan - kill enough humans at once, and the gate will be torn open. He tasks his fal'Cie with creating Cocoon, and luring humans there as it is a paradise. Barthandelus, who runs the Sanctum fal'Cie watches over the construction of this human farm. But in making Cocoon, Lindzei's fal'Cie steal from the surface of Pulse and this develops a feeling of resentment between the Pulse dwellers and Cocoon, which culminates in the War of Transgression. During the War, Fang and Vanille are branded by the fal'Cie Anima who was Oerba's guardian fal'Cie to become Ragnarok and destroy Cocoon. However, Vanille cannot go through with it and Fang's incomplete form of Ragnarok can only break Cocoon's shell. Then Etro steps in - seeing the potential for disaster she prematurely locks Fang and Vanille into crystal stasis. Pulse loses the War, and its cultures begin to collapse as the fal'Cie task the humans with Focuses they cannot complete, and cities become Cie'th settlements. Cocoon rebuilds, taking the necessary pieces from Pulse but Barthandelus also organises it such that Fang and Vanille, along with the fal'Cie Anima are brought onto Cocoon as well, all so they can be used to complete his plan when they awaken. ...I should probably stop here or else I won't stop. I hope some of that was new to you and that it was interesting.

[@ChillnTurtle]

randoMMis Holy shit, that was awesome! Definitely didn't know all that. Thanks for taking the time to type all that up! Tho I do have a couple of questions... Valhalla is like purgatory? A realm that you must pass to get to the unseen realm? So Mwynn got stuck there instead of passing? Where did the Chaos come from? Is it a force created by Mwynn's own despair at being murdered by her own son, or was it a pre-existing force within Valhalla? If Etro "stepped in" to crystallize Fang and Vanille during the War of Transgression, that means Etro found the gate Bhunivelze was looking for, and she can pass through it willingly? How? Did Mwynn give her the power to do so? Also, at the end of 13, Fang and Vanille forming a giant crystal pillar to save Cocoon from falling, that was Etro again? What was with the whole 13-2 storyline? Sorry, I know that's a lot of questions... this is why I'd like a Pez video. lol

[@wndyd95]

Well, people tend to forget the smaller details after 8 years

[@mitchellfrye897]

Wait... Barthandelus was king of Gran Pulse?! Where did I miss this?!

[@williampalkow5108]

I saw him more as a space pope.

[@samuelcp100]

Makes more sense if you consider that vanille and fang were made in pulse centuries past ff13 events and that he a ascended to power hiding his identity.

[@nomysonisalsonamedbort]

I think the idea behind Vayne is that, unlike most early FF antagonists, he's a politician. The nice speech was just a front, he was willing to murder most of his family in cold blood and completely undermined the "democratically elected" council members by framing them and installing himself as an emperor. Sure his goal is sympathetic, but he's still very much an antagonist, and a very good one at that.

[@SwobyJ]

Indeed. We can have sympathies for him, but it stops there, and our care 'should' be for characters like Larsa.

[@haeroarchon9741]

Who else came for the XIII theory?

[@sohtak7208]

I'm game for ANYTHING 13 related and I honestly hope Peasant does more. I know FF15 is the new hotness and that'll bring in more views and more subscribers but I think a good chunk of us would love/appreciate more 13 videos. Especially since he's stated 13-2 is his favorite.

[@swordofetro8291]

Versus is not his area of expertise. He knows this. Maybe he can do KH.

[@RougeMephilesClone]

Haero Archon I did.

[@ClaireYunFarronXIII]

Here!

[@fat4eyes]

The villains of FF13 are the writers. Everyone else is just a victim of horrendous writing.

[@smb0621]

fat4eyes LOL! Nice

[@KenjiShiratsuki]

I honestly don't think it's written poorly, I think it's just so vague and hard to piece together that you might as well be playing Demon's Souls and trying to figure out THAT lore. Or, to compare trilogy+related title to trilogy+related title. Fabula Nova Crystalis == SoulsBorne lore-wise. Hard as hell to piece together and explain, but with a basic narrative that gets you through the game. I played XIII, loved it, hated XIII-2 because I always hate pets-as-party-member systems like Tales of Symphonia 2 had. Played Lightning Returns, loved it. I liked the stories they told for the simpler narrative that mainlined the plot. I don't have the brainpower to put together the pieces to get the whole picture, but I found that what I COULD understand was good enough for me. But yeah, the writing could pull people into the deep lore a bit harder.

[@Melchiorblade7]

Agreed Kenji. I would also place KH in the group of games that have a lore and story that requires much digging on the players part

[@fat4eyes]

The thing is, all the supplementary material, should be just that, supplementary and not required to understand the main story. Many games with good stories (most classic Bioware titles, Skyrim, Bioshocks) are able to present a good understandable story but are still filled to the brim with little stories that flesh out the lore. A game that REQUIRES the supplemental material just to understand the main story has failed in its presentation. What's even more annoying is that there are some actual interesting characters in FF13 (Lightning and Sazh) who are more than the typical anime stock characters. These characters were wasted on a very badly presented story, which makes the game's failings even more noticeable.

[@smb0621]

fat4eyes I have to ardently agree with you on your point regarding the role of supplemental information in storytelling. One of my cardinal "oh no no's" in gaming is when the writers depend to much on external sources in order to deliver what should be a 'stand alone' story. And in my opinion, every game that isn't a direct sequel should be stand alone. FF15 lost points with me on that one big time, as it depended far too heavily on extra movies, amines, demos, and even PR spots just to deliver the primary story. Halo 5 was just as bad. FF13 I thought overly relied on their codex and frequently committed to sin of "too much tell/not enough show" in world building (over reliance on exposition in other words). And good grief....Kingdom Hearts is a category unto itself what with all its dependencies on spin offs (on various platforms no less), Retcons, and winning the Olympic Gold Medal in confusing plot development with plot overcomplication (and I even like KH!). Definitely in agreement here. Supplements are awesome bonuses--not primary story telling devices.

[@narfd.8837]

The biggest misconception in FFXIII is its overflown lore. All 3 games combined have over 400 pages of lore, in FFXIII-2 we have around 200 pages alone and thats without all those legends and myths and backstories. I love those games, but the fact that the original FFXIII pretty much threw the player into the world without telling anything about its lore hurt the whole Trilogy and the FNC as a whole as well.

[@brennangum6236]

That was always my issue with the game... I dont want to read lore logs... I want the lore to be presented in game through what happens...

[@Krescentwolf]

That's the thing I've always tried to argue about the FF13 series... It has a DAMN GOOD story... but it was just horribly written from a technical perspective.

[@brennangum6236]

Its horribly presented. Good story if it was actually told as the game unfolds...

[@gianghuynh9570]

hmm I always believed the real villain in 7 was Hojo.

[@BlackSteelKeyChain]

shout out to my fellow 13 fans where u at guys, unit we are the ultimate FF fan group

[@sohtak7208]

Represent! I love FF13 and I think it's one of the best FF games and I've 100% all 3 of them, and am beginning to practice speedrunning them. I've even got some of the rare "Elixir" merchandise, collectors editions, play arts figures etc...such a great game

[@BlackSteelKeyChain]

Sohtak 😁 👍

[@Munchticles]

I love the 13 series, I think only the nostalgia fans are the ones that hate it or never gave it an open minded chance

[@tjc3644]

First FF I've played and it is still my fave

[@The810kid]

BlackSteel KeyChain lightning is bae just came to say that

[@minilabyrinth]

FF12 REMASTER HYPE ONLY 3 MORE MONTHSSSSSS

[@baschlives9252]

Too long !!

[@wenceslaohernandez1647]

We really need you to do a 13 trilogy lore. Please. Hearing you talking about it makes everything clearer and more interesting than playing the games! Love your channel.

[@Nikolai4567]

FF13's lore is an example of a lore so deep, that the developers themselves drowned in it. So, let me correct a few things: 1. Valhalla is in the unseen realm, there is no heaven and hell, there is only Valhalla. 2. Lightning killed Lindzei actually: "Lindzei personally manifests during Lightning's battle with Bhunivelze, transforming into a half of a twin scythe for him to wield, and is apparently destroyed during the battle." Yes, that was him, he was pretty weak compared to Bhuni. 3. FF13, has no villains: Bhunivelze created Pulse and Lindzei to find a way to the unseen realm, where he could kill etro because he thought she was plotting against him. Etro does not want to die and uses any means necessary to survive as long as she could. The biggest Problem with FF13 and villains, is that you have closed loops of cause and effect. This is so incredibly complex, that I would literary have to write a thesis of 30 Pages to explain this stuff, and that is not an understatement. Small example: In 13-2 when Noel's Yeul dies, she sees a vision and tells him "WE WILL MEET AGAIN". This Vision does come true, BUT it comes true in 13-3 AFTER Bhunivelze has been defeated. This means, that from this moment, his defeat was already Fate, but think of all the things that needed to happen after that, and that includes the actions of people who knew about this vision, it could be argued that even Caius knew about this. So did he know what would happen? Did Etro know what would happen? Was it her plan all along? And this gets more and more complicated from there on xD PS: Also the timeline is AT LEAST in 6D

[@somed214]

Except that Bhunivelze kicked everything off by murdering his own mother, Mwynn. Now, she was a god, so being murdered just meant that she was trapped in the unseen, but still. Even giving him a pass for being above human morality that's pretty villainous. From there, Bhunivelze set about trying to play the creator, but since he refused to accept that chaos was a necessary component of existence, he sucked at it. The only reason life existed at all in the FFXIII world is that Mwynn (and after she expended herself, Etro) were feeding chaos across the veil. Mwynn quite literally sacrificed herself to keep life humming in spite of Bhunivelze's idiocy, and so did Etro after her. And once Etro was gone, the world started disintegrating in one of the few instances in the series of a world falling apart due to a lack of darkness. Only by killing Bhunivelze (and by extension Pulse and Lindzei) could the energies making up the world be put into a proper balance of light and darkness and get reset, because Bhunivelze simply wouldn't accept that darkness was a necessary component (and he may not have been capable of directing chaos anyway, meaning the worlds were doomed from the moment he killed Mwynn). Or at least that's what I've come up with. This is all assuming that "darkness" from other games in the series equates to chaos from the XIII games, which may not be exactly right but it seems pretty close from what I can tell.

[@Thefluff99]

Bhun. could not see chaos or the human souls that were a part of the chaos. If he had succeeded, he would have been the ultimate "God in the machine" philosophical example where everything was a part of some infallible program where nothing had a choice in what they did. In essence, there would be no true life, no true growth, no true destruction... Nothing to overcome, nothing to love.... He would have failed at everything he tried to copy.

[@Nikolai4567]

Final Fantasy 13 is extremely extremely deep on the concepts of free will. What you say is just the surface. I would argue, that final fantasy 13 has Hard Incompatibilism (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FreeWillTaxonomy4.svg) . Chaos is Indeterminism, but Bhuni was the God of Determinism, so he could not see Chaos. But even Chaos does not free someone from Fate in FF13, as Visions still exist, and there is NO known instance in universe, where Fate was avoided actually (And all the instances where it seems that way, can be originated to a God (This actually deconstructs Deus Ex Machina also)). It is just 6 Dimensional Fate, with Timetravel (and it has lots of plot holes, because it was impossible to write something this complicated). That is actually in itself a really radical statement about Quantum Mechanics that we have here. I originally thought, the Devs just mashed everything together without thinking about it at all. But then we have things like a Quest From 13-3 that is called: "Free Will" it is essentially about if THE PLAYER himself has free will or not. And that makes it seem like they did indeed think so far.

[@tjc3644]

That just makes me love the game even more

[@mismismism]

I like the 11 theory, it's interesting. FF13... That story was a mess, if you're gonna have that much background lore that's convoluted on it's own, on top of a convoluted story you need to explain things carefully cuz it was SO confusing. Constantly referencing things they haven't actually explained yet, we don't even see most of the gods who are the core of the story. Just a mess.

[@jlwest23]

I think the other gods were to show up in Agito/Type-0 and Versus but 13 kind of ruined that hence the chances with those games.

[@mismismism]

jlwest23 That's a problem with Square lately though, they want to do multiple games and shows that interconnect but a good story gives you everything you need to know to understand it. If they walled off info you needed to understand 13 in Agito/Type-0 and Versus then that's bad writing. They could still connect but they didn't give you the info you needed to understand 13 in 13.

[@jlwest23]

Etro was to play a big part in Versus and we can see how that turned out.

[@mismismism]

jlwest23 Hopefully they stop doing this is future games, FF stories usually have a lot to follow already with all the necessary info.

[@Indubidably0]

lol you act as though America is a special exception, as though your government doesn't engage the same levels of it or as though your people don't directly benefit from the shit our government does. Anyway, FF12 feels like Chaotic Good vs Lawful Good to decide who gets to take down the big bads, with neither knowing the other is on the side of good. "What we have here is a failure to communicate." That's how I frame it in my own mind at the end.

[@FallenSnowWolf]

I got the feeling from Vayne that he had every intention of dying at the end and that he had planed all along to put his brother on the throne. He had stated that his hands were too bloody to rule and that his brother was far cleaner. Vayne seemed like the type that does what IS right more then what FEELS right. So I think at the end he was successful in what he had planed.

[@juliuscasar7202]

didnt Vayne killed some of his own family?

[@jerric1228]

Sephiroth's behavior is irrelevant because it wasn't him. This is borderline objective fact. The real sephiroth was in the crater and the person you chase is jenova. Her cell was broken out of from the inside and that's where the blood trail starts. Her being in control makes sense during the flashback but he likely takes control sometime after traversing the livestream and cloud disturbing her cell. There's videos out there that break it down better I'm just going off memory, but she didn't know who you were and left pieces of herself behind to fight you each time you catch her, but she was likely trying to bring the name of sephiroth back to stir up the clones and resume the reunion.

[@FinalFantasyPeasant]

except it isnt borderline objective fact as it is directly stated that they have a joint conciousness. Theres no such thing as a 'real sephiroth', your are talking about a game and two villains that transcend the physical. "Sephiroth is devoted to Jenova and its cause, even though its body serves as little more than his avatar. It is also stated he is now an agent carrying out Jenova's will." "Through his control over Jenova, Sephiroth can shapeshift her cells into his visage and other forms, and act through them as though they were his own body. " Jenova is a proxy body for Sephiroths mind, that is the objective facts compadre ;)

[@jerric1228]

Then at what point did they become one? In the livestream? And I suppose in the process he gets his God complex and talks as if no ones there despite that person being the man who killed him? It seems like you're making it more convoluted than it needs to be in order to make a point.

[@FinalFantasyPeasant]

Yes in the lifestream. Not only was that when the assimilation fully happened, though you could argue Jenova didnt need that for assimilation. It was also when Seph cut away parts of his humanity. For sephiroth to endure only the most important aspects of his will could endure, things like empathy, sympathy etc were lost. Thats a part of why he doesnt remember cloud, his god complex was even beginning to form in the damn library for goodness sake. You literally here him talking about taking the world back from traitors before he jumps so explain that? Im not making anything more conuluted, I'm stating facts of the game, facts the directors have confirmed. The other part of not remember cloud is as explained, the balance of control between seph/jenova was an ever moving scale in the game

[@FinalFantasyPeasant]

OP edited to concede an element of control was in sephiroths hand? That there was a mental link?

[@jerric1228]

I edited it before you commented to fix a spelling error because iPhones don't think sephiroth is a proper name. I never argued the mental link or any of that, I simply disagreed that it was always sephiroth and he didn't recognize cloud because of his God complex. It seems more likely to me that sephiroth was in control but that it was still jenova talking to them, and that they aren't literally one mind. The idea that jenova was deceiving him because she couldn't fully control him is interesting though.

[@somed214]

There's a good reason most people don't know that Etro helped the party at the end of XIII, which is that THE BLOODY GAME DOESN'T EVEN HINT AT IT. I guess this got explained in an untranslated test story and it does get more or less explained in XIII-2, but jeez. I like the underlying lore of the XIII series, but the execution was just miserably bad.

[@groudonvert7286]

It's hint at the end of Chapter 11, where Etro saved Fang and Vanille 700 years before the main story.

[@SktMew]

I am so glad to see someone on youtube who is not hating on FF13. in my humble opinion, 13 has one of the most rich and amazing lores on the series, grounded characters like hope and Sazh are hard to find (as much as hope is annoyng, he pretty much acts according to his age) Sazh, Lightning and Caius are my favorite characters and oh boy the combat system is just sweet af.

[@sohtak7208]

That's EXACTLY it and I don't see why people don't get it. The characters have flaws...that what makes them so relateable...Vanille isn't just "Happy go lucky giggly ditzy girl" that's just an ACT to hide her pain/sorrow but most people write her off. Lightning isn't just "A bitch" she has a reason to be that way and even then, she warms up and even starts cracking casual jokes with the gang and smiling. She changes in midway into 13, even more in 13-2 and even MORE in 13-3. Or like you said with Hope, yes...he is whiny and annoying but...he's a 14 year old boy who watched his mom die right INFRONT OF HIM. Anyone would be upset/distraught over it. And infact, I'd say Hope has the BEST character development in all of 13.

[@LakrimaProject]

I would say FF13 is not that bad (still I dont like the tone and design of this game anyway) BUT FF13-2 and versus are.

[@tyfenrir]

Edzoneko I hated everything about 13 expect for Sazh he was the only likeable thing about that entire game. My opinion though, I also loved FF8 so everyones different.

[@nateputerbaugh5709]

Edzoneko 13 has an insane amount of lore, but the reason "most people didn't understand" is because it generally did a terrible job of explaining it

[@baschlives9252]

I can usually follow complex stories with complicated plot points but I have to admit FF13 lost me at points. liked it a lot more during a second play through!

[@Starwarsdude8221991]

When you talk about thirteen I was actually interested then I remember playing the game, yeah no matter how good a salesmen you are I am not going back to that hot mess

[@TNobody0214]

true villain wise the whole gray area of 12 is huge and more or less would take hours yk go through all the dialogue of any npc, story event, and interaction that can happen in game to explain it at it's best. Though the story for 12 kinda everywhere I do believe it has the best world of any ff game and I will stand by that thoroughly

[@TWOxACROSS]

From what I remember, Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream from the Mt Nibel reactor and ended up crystallized at the Northern Crater, where he existed in a suspended state that allowed him to travel anywhere in the world through the Lifestream. Because of his connection to Jenova, he was able to reshape the headless corpse in Shin-Ra tower and start walking around, manipulate others with Jenova cells, and focusing on Reunion to get the Black Materia and attain godhood by standing at the source of a massive Lifestream flood healing a planetbusting wound. Jenova...doesn't exist anymore, I think is the whole point. She had been dead for an extremely long time, and was put in a tube up on Mt Nibel for culturing purposes. The Sephiroth in the game is literally himself, but using all of the tricks Jenova used against the Cetra because he's essentially the closest thing to Jenova now. There isn't even a "will of Jenova," considering Jenova was a parasitic lifeform that rode in on space debris and tried to infect the Cetra to spread itself. Sephiroth's ambitions had absolutely nothing to do with that, because he wanted to become a god-like being. The closest thing to Jenova's will is in Advent Children when Sephiroth says he wants to kill everyone on the planet and then use it as a vessel to find another planet, with another Lifestream that he can absorb. Even then, that's just an idea he got from Jenova because that's what it did.

[@MeiriDesu]

This was awesome, do more like this! I'm stoked you said you'll be tackling FFIX. Also; I'd watch a 20min video for *each game* if you dug into their lore, especially since I don't have time to play, replay, and get deep into the stories and theories anymore. So, thanks Pez!

[@Pduarte79]

FFXIII real villain is Bhunivelze is in the lore, since that was He that created the Pulse, Etro and Lindzei to search Etro's gate, but since Etro reminded so much of his mother, He decided to kill her, us humans in FFXIII lore are Etro offsprings, their children, and Etro in Valhalla met a dying Mwynn, that pass her power to protect both worlds, later Etro passes to Lightning, that's why Caius sometimes calls Lightning, goddess, that what I understood fromm FXIII lore!

[@Togekab00m]

Lindzei COULD be fought in Type Next/1 or even 2 or whatever, but, they couldn't be killed, bc they're still around in XIII3 when Bhunivelze summons them and Lightning destroys them with Bhunivelze and Pulse to become the god of the new world

[@eratiera]

Hojo is definitely the main villian in the entire game. And Jenova is not a female. The woman infused with Jenova you're talking about is most likely Sephiroth's mother who died at birth because of the Jenova infusion. Jenova did not take over Sephiroth's mind. It is all his own act. He studied the library's books in the Basement (basically) his parent's mansion, by accident, finding the information about... literally, himself.

[@theftking]

The clones gravitated towards Jenova. _Jevnoa_ gravitated towards Sephiroth, which is why Jenova left the Shinra building.

[@xseraphx219]

The ultimania of ff7 straight up tells us Jenova was used by Sephiroth at all times. He used her head to begin regenerating his body, he initiates the reunion to have his clones bring him the black materia, he instructs Jenova to assume his form and even free Cloud out of his prison. Jenova is, as described in the ultimania, only concerned with destroying everything. Sephiroth's goal isn't total destruction. it's to rule the world. And why would Sephiroth even remember Cloud? Cloud falsely remembers himself as a soldier first class that had a relationship with Sephiroth. The reality was that Cloud went on a single mission with him, where he never showed his face, as an infantryman that was friends with Zack. The one and only time Sephiroth saw Cloud's was when Cloud stabbed him. furthermore the ultimania tells us there are people who can resist Jenova's influence. All SOLDIERS are an example. and finally, Jenova is a virus. Her singular purpose is to infect and destroy everyone and everything. her mimic ability was to allow her to infect the cetra, because it allowed Jenova to get close to them. Only those with Jenova cells in them go "mad," because Jenova cells have a need to return to the main body, thus collapsing the individual's own psyche. Zack and Cloud being part of the Sephiroth clone experiment helps illustrate the point: Zack was a failure because he resisted Jenova, a trait SOLDIER possesses; Cloud however couldn't.

[@ArcaneGE]

I could see Sephiroth remembering Cloud because he was probably the one person to ever defeat him(with a crazy feat of strength that shocked Sephiroth no less) even if they had only met briefly. Though, Sephiroth not remembering him very well is also plausible. I mostly think Sephiroth not remembering Cloud was there to hint at the fact that Cloud was not the ex-SOLDIER he believed himself to be and it certainly did even though it is later revealed that Cloud did meet Sephiroth beforehand after all.

[@glaeli1184]

xseraphx219 I kinda agree, but I also think that Pez has a point when he says that Jenova, exactly like a disease, in a way "infected" Sephiroth's mind and thus altered his path. I don't think he was in control from the start, he probably "wrestled" with Jenova's will for a while and he was pretty surely changed by this fight because he had to sacrifice parts of himself (the "weak parts") in order to be strong enough to take control and porsue his own goal. So yeah, in the end he managed to subdue Jenova but she did have a huge role in the development of his new "self", enhancing some aspects of his personality and destroying others.

[@xseraphx219]

Lutz I I have to disagree. The Sephiroth clones and Cloud show us what Jenova does to a person. It firstly makes them want to go to Jenova and reunite, a trait Jenova's cell's possess. And secondly they have a weakend mimicry ability that essentially creates a dissociative identity. in other words Jenova is like a voice in one's head whispering the same desire over and over, as well as having multiple personalities. the combination of both is what drives people into insanity. Sephiroth doesn't display either. Sephiroth's new self was brought about because of pride. He thought himself the strongest human, and a hero, to find out he was a lab rat, Hojo's in fact (he doesn't even respect him as a scientist), and a monster. Having his pride hurt, he latches on to Gast's incorrect belief that Jenova, and thus he, is an ancient. Learning all of the truth in the lifestream (probably in the same manner materia teaches magic) Sephiroth discards all notions of being a hero or a savior. he focuses on the only thing that matters: he is the strongest. His pride make him fancy himself a God, and thus he has to become a God. This sets in motion his plan to fuse with the lifestream and become one with the world. In my opinion the greatest indicator of this is how Squaresoft designed him. His name is Hebrew in origin, and his final form possibly being an allusion to the ten aspects of creation in Jewish mysticism; thus implying Sephiroth has become one who can create anything. The black wing may be symbolic of a fallen angel. All in context it has many similarities to the ultimate story of pride being what drives one into madness and begins their downfall: the story of Lucifer.

[@glaeli1184]

xseraphx219 I do see your point, and the analogy with Lucifer is absolutely fitting (and beautiful I may say), I just find hard to completely discard the notion of Jenova as at least a catalyst. I can't see her as completely irrelevant in the making of the "god" Sephiroth, whose character is built on pride but also desire for annihilation, a primal drive that does echo the destructive instinct that is Jenova (and if Jenova is a parasite than Sephiroth is quite the perfect host since his will is largely in tune with hers, it's pretty much a symbiotic match). Yes, Sephiroth is "a man (god) of his own making", every choice is his own as he is in control of the calamity, but would have it been really the same without Jenova's call for blood poisoning his mind? The worst obsessions can be born from a simple fleeting intrusive thought, I could see Jenova as at least something similar. But this is a matter of slightly different interpretation, because Sephiroth is in charge anyway, I do agree that it's his Pride that made him, with or without Jenova's "push".

[@TWOxACROSS]

Lutz - Jenova was a parasitic lifeform, but not necessarily something with a "desire" like that of a person. Look at cordyceps, it is one of the most evil infections ever seen, and it controls hosts to keep spreading. It feels like fiction because how could nature make such a perfectly dangerous parasite that can brainjack a host. Not once did Sephiroth's intentions of becoming a god line up with Jenova's nature of infection and spread, and in fact, Sephiroth used Jenova's nature to make his goals a near-reality. The thing is that Jenova has been dead for centuries before Sephiroth ever came along, and Sephiroth was able to use all of Jenova's tricks like mimicry and Reunion for his own goals, because he was the closest thing to a Jenova-like organism, so he capitalized on what he truly was to get what he wanted. Jenova isn't the villain of FFVII, but she is definitely the catalyst for a lot of the antagonists, chief among them Sephiroth.

[@Stroggoii]

Trying to choose sides between Ashe and Vayne, from a moral standpoint, is like trying to chose sides between Hitler and Stalin. Ultimatedly both were good and evil, and either victory would have caused both progress and suffering. The problem with politics is that the world is not a monolithic entity and what benefits one country may destroy another.

[@DOC_951]

the villain of 7 is Sephiroth, 13 is barthandalus... don't remember anything from 12 lol

[@zndermaru8115]

I think Hojo is the real villain of FF7, he is the one who is responible for everything. And also all people who knew about this and didn't do anything, maybe even everyone who used Mako energy

[@56momoney]

Yea for FF12 I think you can frame either side as the villian or the hero.

[@brennangum6236]

Thats why I liked 12... the rogue occuria actually had good motives... to put the destiny of man into their own hands. I love when antagonists arent a dark lord

[@digitalreframe]

There are no heroes in FF12....My issue with that one was battle system, nothing of story.

[@evansvisual]

complete opposite for me

[@digitalreframe]

Mileage will vary... xD

[@ff7soldierff7]

I enjoyed the battle system very much.

[@digitalreframe]

I sure didn't, so cumbersome and slow....FF7's was faster as is FF15's so I got used to that... >_>

[@ff7soldierff7]

digitalreframe you can change the battlespeed in the config menu. if you never changed that then yeah its slow xD

[@dice5709]

FF13 is the best Game of it's Franchise and you can't tell me that none of you wanted a piece of that Lightning.

[@Vayne_Solidor]

My favorite villains in FF are Ardyn Izunia, Caius Ballad and Vayne Solidor.

[@romax3115]

i always thought ashe is the villains, she is the chosen one of the gods, gods who enslave mortal, while vayne only wants mortal to be free from the dammed gods. The entire time i play the games i pretty much aware we are playing the bad guys part, it probably the only amazing thing about FF12 story, because the overall plot line is just boring politics and the complete uselessness of vaan

[@romax3115]

i love the game most of all, i think the combat system is the best one of all ff series, but to say it have good story or worse saying it have better story compare to the other ff is just wrong in all possible level. If one would describe ff 12 story in one word, than that word would be "totalshit" let me ask you this, what is the purpose of vaan? if he is not around would the main story line be any different? to both answer ill say, no he have no purpose except for one, to fulfill ff stereotypical main protagonist "the teen hero". So how can a story be any good if the main protagonist is a total waste of character? now lets dwell to politics, the main purpose of the vayne is not power, he just wants to end occuria control to mortals, because no matter how you look at it the occuria is describe as evil gods in the games, they even hammer the point in revenant wings, when the occuria destroy entire civilizations of the winged people. So why bother with all the theatric? why not make alliance to fight occuria instead? and worse of all we are playing the role of evil gods chosen one and finally kill the mortal liberator i fail to see which are the "better stories" part in ff12

[@aundrea5541]

wow! I feel like playing FFXIII series now...mind boggling

[@sohtak7208]

I'd whole heartedly recommend it! The FF fanbase is just a bunch of babies that want EVERY FF game to be 4,6,7,8,9,10 and literally nothing else ever, just the same game again and again and again and again. Go into it with an open mind, don't listen to haters and I'm sure you'd enjoy it.

[@arziel340]

Sohtak If you really say FF 4,6,7,8,9,10 was the same you not FF Fan! You mainstream. FF 13 is good FF 15 yes but to easy in combat system. FF was to linear and have not much mini games(this was main point) F F 15 story problem. So if i wish me good Story and good gameplay : Iam say in you eyes every FF should be the same?? Whats wrong with you?? If i pay 70€ for a game so i want more that fucking DLC contest for complete the game! But ok you mainstream gamer all casual easy player which pay Games with mom's and Dads credit card 💳:) So ok iam old school and lets like Quality🤗 Before Games was mainstream many goodies/stuff virtually or physically like DLC /Hartcover was normal version you must not pay again. And in the and i dont hate FF 13,15 i only now both FFs the FF13 series and FF15 universe can be perfect if not mainstream buy 30-60% of the Game and say yeah.

[@sohtak7208]

But that IS the case, look at any new FF game that comes out. 12 is trash because it's not 4,6,7,8,9,10 13 is trash because it's not 4,6,7,8,9,10 14 is trash because it's not 4,6,7,8,9,10 15 is trash because it's not 4,6,7,8,9,10 (In the future) 16 is trash because it's not 4,6,7,8,9,10 It ALWAYS comes back to those select games.

[@warangelcloud]

FF2 dawn of Souls FF5, FF6, FF7, FF8, ff10, and FF12 copy each other a whole lot. FF13 and FF15 go back to FF1 and FF4. The original FF12 Zodiac age is more like FF4. FF4 has a Highwind army like in FF12, but everbody is a hybrid Class like in ff5-Ff8/10. FF112 Zodiac age makes you stick to one class ,like a true FF4. FF13 is linear, but it sticks to classes like FF4 and FF1. Wait, FF10 is linear also to a degree. FF13 is Linear, but makes since being Linear because it's what the whole story is about. Being forced to move as directed by Fal'cie. FF15 has an open ended story, but It feels like FF1. Meaning that FF15 was kind of a remake of FF1 if the characters could talk. You're just on an adventure with a plot twist at chapter 13. The dungeons in FF15 brought that classic longevity to them that classic FF games had. Is FF15 easy, yes. Yet, so is FF7. You don't have to fight Ruby weapon. If you just follow every FF games story, it's linear. FFV, FF2 Dawn of souls and FF13 are the hardest. There's also a reason why if the character you controls dies is a game over. You need every character to be in the game to fulfill the focus. Plus, if the main character in Persona 5 dies, you start from the save spot, rather than getting a retry like in FF13. So why hate on FF13? The greatest FF game is FF10 to me. To make every character similar is not easy and the true bad guys are the Yu Yevon holier than thou crew.

[@Nyonics]

You got me. I love V, VI, VIII, and IX and want more. I thought XV sucked because it wasn't one of those games instead of because it had no plot to speak of. I disliked XIII because it wasn't one of my favorite FF games instead of because Hope is nails-on-chalk-board and the mythology is too convoluted and written into the corner of a Greek Amphitheater. (By which I mean it clearly aims for a catch-22 tragedy that it then tries to deus ex machina out of because the set up to the tragedy was so airtight that they wrote themselves into a corner. Not to mention that they repeated this exact process for both direct sequels.) XIII had some great characters, but a terrible setting/exposition. It got a lot better when they introduced Caius and Yeul, and a lot worse again in Lightning Returns (even though LR had arguably one of the best battle systems in the franchise; one that clearly IS the future of ATB and desperately needs adapted into a multi-character party system, the initial proof of concept for which is already in LR itself with AI Fang and AI Noel being able to do their jobs at least as well as a "Tales of" computer).

[@chilliconcarnage._.7975]

More 13 vids!!!!!!! This game has so much story I think it needs more fleshing out for peeps to truly understand the game and maybe even change the minds of others if explained in detail 😏 Ooohhh damn i can't buy ff7 yet cuz I have no memory space in my vita 😩 gotta wait till I find a bigger memory card available 😒

[@rachelhighfill6754]

Shut up you dum ass millennial 13 and 15 is trash that has no heart no story and it is just a cash grab go fuck your self

[@dellboi1984]

i also loved the 13 series lore, for all its short comings in gameplay, the story rly impressed me and kept me playing. MORE PLEASE, MORE !

[@Mephistel]

Given how strongly influenced Archadia seems to be by the structure of the Roman Republic, I'd wager that only the nobles and upper classes get to vote. You even see going into Archadia that there's the slums and Archadia proper, and they are divided heavily by class and social status. It even becomes part of the gameplay for a bit while you're getting those ...thingies to get into progressively classier parts of the city. So they definitely have a very limited and restrictive democracy if even that, but that's still not enough to call Vayne the villain. Actually, I don't think the game had a real *big bad* like other FF games, which I found refreshing. There's many different conflicts going on that all play into each other.

[@eshelynn]

ACKSHUALLY, The Shinra Corporation was the true villain. If they hadn't played God and cloned JENOVA, or injected its cells into people to create this ultimate weapon, none of the games events would have happened.

[@01bullbl]

Pez, if you haven't yet, you should look up the FF8 theory that rinoa is ultimecia. its by far the most perfect, almost flawless theories that I've ever heard. My heart started racing, I was sweating while reading it, the whole 9. ***spoiler*** i cried like an infant when I got to the part where it said that the scene at the end of the game with the hole in squalls face didn't mean that squall was dead, but that rinoa/ultimecia couldn't remember his face anymore because of her GF. It turns the entire game into the most tragic love story ever told in ff history.

[@WhiskeyTango76s]

Brendin Bullard That bit at the end was Squall forgetting himself and Rinoa, just as Ultimecia said he(and everyone else that was there) would and all they will know is her, that's why Rinoa was replaced by Ultimecia in that scene, those were the last bits of his memory being lost. Play or watch the entire scene starting right before the boss fight and you can see that everything she told them that would happen happens

[@Sheechiibii]

It might be a cool theory but it's made impossible by a fair few facts in the game (such as the lifespan of sorceresses for starters). And Ultimecia has such a stunning story if you buy into the 'unjust persecution' idea, which goes into a whole lot of detail on the timeline of VIII how Ultimecia's story is a pretty tragic fate. Definitely recommend it, especially if you just enjoy FFVIII's lore because it goes over a whole lot of the timeline and how everything transpires in the game very well before it goes into the theory side of things.

[@mrskye08]

I REALLY REALLY LOVE listening to your ff13 stories. 13 and 7 for me is the most vastly thought of final fantasy (havent played 15 tho). So deep and needs a lot of thinking afterwards. Ive tried replaying 13 but replayability of this game is really poor haha but hell the story keeps me thinking for long.

[@aransom808]

jenova is a corpse. this isn't a conversation... you're being told that sephiroth is the bad guy. The end.

[@swordofetro8291]

Winner.

[@JuanchoPradaGamer]

So...The Final Fantasy VII main villain is.....

[@chalunkxlight578]

Hmm,i think many comments here missed some point about Vayne. Sure,he's not a good guy with his method either. Many points that he killed his brothers & father in cold blood. But he killed his brothers as his father requested.(They were trying to start a coup e'dat as i recall) For his father,he sees as the only way to silence the senate for good and to protect Larsa from them. Remember what Gabranth has said to Drace? The senate prefered Larsa only for being easier to manipulate which they can't do it with Vayne being around. That's why they tried to remove Vayne from the board and his father already has a little power over them at that point. As Vayne stated to his father before killing him that it won't be just his future that will be taken away from them. He knew that Vayne mean that it was for Larsa as well. And despite Cid didn't seem to be pleased for keeping Larsa around believing that he was too soft. Vayne just calmly responded that "Larsa is as he should be". So what i want to say is not that he's cold blood to the core. Normally he should've removed Larsa from his plan. But no,he let him stand up to his own ideals even knowing that it will oppose his. So yeah,he's not a good guy but not that bad either.

[@tynanchapatte8840]

ffxv noct and his bros are the villains

[@SteelAngelVikki]

Half the reason I struggle to enjoy the FFXIII universe is the convoluted lore. I mean, if it was actually explained it in similar way as you have Pes (without reading all those damned logs), I would be more on board because the idea of Gods manipulating humans is brilliant but so poorly presented.

[@TheMovieEm]

About FFXII and King Raithwall: Wasn't he one of the chosen kings of the Occuria? I would argue that the 400 years of peace he (technically) brought was thanks to the fear of destruction through Nethicite. It's almost like being the only country with nuclear power in the world and forcing the rest into non-violence through fear, which sounds like the sort of thing the Occuria wanted...

[@HittokiriBattousai17]

No, really...it's Jenova, it's not even hidden, my 13 year old me knew this...it's Jenova the one that kills the Cetra, the one that infects the planet, the one that wants to destroy the planet and everytime you face her you previously see Sephiroth. Sephi actually explains telling you that "Mother can adopt every form she wants and blablabla, infinite knowledfe, blabla" type of thing. Also, Sephiroth is imprisoned in the lifestream near Weapon's nest.

[@almooseb]

Lindzei personally manifests during Lightning's battle with Bhunivelze, transforming into a half of a twin scythe for him to wield, and is apparently destroyed during the battle. finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Lindzei

[@TheTruestZero]

Well, Sephiroth wasn't a normal man. He was filled with Jenova cells in the womb of Lucrecia, so her influence should be extremelly strong inside him, and remained dormant until Sephiorth searched about Jenova, that maybe triggered her influence to re-awaken in his mind and body.

[@mikigirl18]

I haven't finished Final Fantasy XII, but I can see what you mean about Vane. His brother, who I have a LOT of respect, even count as one of my favorite characters besides Balthier, is a very smart person. He also seems to be a very fair person too. So the fact that he had respect for his brother. Even believing that his brother had reasons for his actions, make me find truth in your theory. Now, as far as I got is a little past meeting Cid for the first time. But that still is enough time to get some impressions.

[@TheGingerMassiah]

Yeah, I'd go with Hojo and Shinra in 7, had he been told the truth and been allowed to grow up with lucrecia he would have most likely never have had the psychotic break at Mt. Nibble and most likely wouldn't have gone on to cause the trouble he did. Sephiroth wasn't evil and twisted from the start it was his existential psychotic break that caused it and had he knows he was actually born from lucrecia and not created in the way he feared as such I doubt he would have been the villain we saw.

[@ffjason]

After hearing all that "lore" for XIII I can feel my brain trying to kill itself. What a clusterfuck of having no idea what to do with the story and making it up as you go along....

[@Catzillator]

FF7: the villian tried to destrot a planet/ loss to the planet FF12: the villian want to safe the world/ the protagonists safe the world from the villian. FF13: The villian want to die, protagonists didn't want to do it but did it anyway.

[@AngryAnimeFan2]

so much talking that really creates confusing. for me the real Big Bad of 7 is Hojo. the argument is what Jenova or Sepirith did. and Jenova did land on the planet but that does nto change thta Hojo where the reason for a lot of the main Despair in the game

[@lsaacthecraftsman]

Real villain of 7 is hojo and jenova cells Real villain of 12 are occurias, venat and vayne have noble motives Real villain of 13 is bhunivelze though unseen in the game

[@Sharff514]

Jenova and Shinra are the main villains of ff7. Honestly it all started with them, I think sephiroth and rufus and everyone else are victims who became villains

[@benjaminlukas2881]

WAY too many ads in every single one of your vids that I've watched dude. They're not even slotted into convenient spots such as between topics etc. I get that you make money based on ad traffic in your vids, but seriously...

[@HarryBillyBobGeorge]

Just wanted to say this completely chagned my perspective on the disjointed shitshow of the 13 sequels. It actually seems like a trilogy instead of an anthology now.

[@johnnyscifi]

No...about ff7. Even the Jenova pieces were sephiroth doubles until fought by the party

[@johnnyscifi]

PS: Sephiroth was NOT a normal man, dude

[@johnnyscifi]

To explain what id initially said a bit better...sephiroth's will hijacked Jenova

[@IosLocarth]

Oh my god I never knew any of this. Holy shit. I'm a huge fan if 13 but I never knew any of this and this makes the entire trilogy make so much sense

[@FalafelTheBurner]

Everyone knows Adachi is the main villain. He put all those guys in the tv.

[@FrizzleLamb]

While everyone is talking about XIII, let us all Final Fantasy XII fans gather in this one corner and be ourselves. ;^)

[@aliawadh7900]

I get the theories for FF7 and FF13 but I think you were definitely reaching when it came to FF12. Besides that though, interesting vid

[@swordofetro8291]

Sephiroth is no the villain until the 'end', I guess you could say. He was a good guy, and the moment he snapped and lost himself was where? In a library, reading all that he was, and all the research and poor souls that died before 'perfecting' him. Man, all you gotta do is just read the damn Ultimania, and there's no need for even theory videos. As for FF13, Lightning Returns is the closest thing in terms of plot you are going to get until you one day see Versus. Hell, I'm not gonna lie--I'm an all around hater of FFXIII, but Lightning Returns had one dope ass fucking plot. Remember the Cult of Etro? That was like, the entire town of Insomnia, originally lol. That's the church you went to on Sunday lol. "OH GREAT REAPER OF DEATH. THANK YOU FOR KILLING ALL DEEZ MOTHAFUCKAZ THAT BE TRYIN' TO THROW SHADE ON OUR ALREADY GLORIOUSLY SHADY INSOMNIA. OHHHHH UMBASA....."

[@sh4d0wfl4re]

Weren't Pulse, Lindsei and Etro all dead by 13-3? I thought the two weapons Bunizevivei (pardon my typos on the God's names) wielded made of Pulse and Lindsei's magicite crystal cores? I am also pretty certain the "warring triad" in FFVI are The Devil below Pulse, the Demon Lindsei and the Goddess of Doom Etro. In FFVI the three Gods of Magic you kill are only given the titles that people whom are against each deity call them by in Fabula Nova Crytalis, almost as if the game developers had some ideas of what 13's plot would be back then. Heck, you can even find a "statue" of a royal warrior whom was Odin's partner in a castle that was thrown out of the "Unseen World" by Kefka's divine power-grab, *and* when Odin sees this statue he transforms into "Raiden," an electric variant of his build with a spell called "quicken" (a super haste spell that gives similar if not more speed than Lightning's later "Overclock"). FFVI doesn't just reference FFXIII, FFXIII-2 gives us a shared location for Valigarmanda. And zozo very much resembles the Paddraean sky scrapers, zozo even has a vast number of workers hired to regularly climb it's towers by the rich people whom used to live nearby when the ruins were more profitable, its weird to have ruined sky scrapers being milked for relics in both games. I actually, think that it would make sense for the beginning of the war of transgression at 600bf to be the War of Magi's start, and placing the rise of the 13th ark at the same timeframe as the Floating Continent in FFVI, putting FFVI's events in one of the alternate timelines. The coliseum references a "day of reckoning" where the vault's within the arc would be opened and the monsters within join the God's in their war, much like what was seen ontop and after the events in the floating continent. sorry for the ramble this turned into, but I am pretty sure that by 13-3 all three of the Pulse, Lindsei, Etro Triad were dead with one death happening on screen in 13-2 and two happening off screen with their corpses being wielded by the final boss, benizevei.

[@jenniferwebster5226]

Thanks FFP for that :-) Funny I always adored Basche and Balthier but I never trusted or liked Ashe until the end, now I understand why... Now will you please give us all the full investigative stories of FF 13 from beginning to end, dig in to all and each characters and explain they're plans, changes, disappearances and reappearances and what we didn't get to see, and how little Claire became a separate being under the guise of Lumina, cos I think there are lots of mysteries here including lots I don't even know (I bet), and confusion with time not just for me but lots of others. What's with the two Hopes I mean he grows up and he's a kid again...Time travel affect? And what did Snow do for Yussnan in the 500 yrs he lived there, being he changed and became Lord of the Feast Hall...changed from what? Did he build up Yussnan then? And how is it both he and Sahz lived for 500 yrs without being crystalized, I suspect that Chaos is the suspect behind Snow's longevity, so what's Sahz excuse lol?! questions, questions questions...

[@ajdove1823]

Years later, (I just happened across this video while I was doing more research on L'Cie for my FF D&D supplement) with Tabata gone, I don't think we'll ever see Type-Next unless Chiba takes up the reins. In that regard it would be amazing to finally see someone confront Lindzei since most people don't subscribe to the implied Bunhivelze is dead therefore Pulse, Diva, and Lindzei also died. ( I know I don't) and who would be better to be the one to take down Lindzei than Ace in the final Spiral as a L'Cie (Using the term loosely to imply that since he was chosen and resurrected by Suzaku Crystal and chosen by Dr Arecia to essentially be the Warrior of Light against Lindzei) Though I would pre-order the super deluxe version of Type-Next if it ever did happen because I'm just that big of a fan of the Fabula Nova Crystalis series.

[@ArveEriksson]

Really interesting angle on FF12. I'll keep an open mind to that line of thinking when I play through it the next time. (Probably this century...) However, I think you make a bit of a boo-boo in describing the Venat vs. Occuria as a struggle between good and evil. I'd say it's more accurate to say those two factions represent order and chaos, like what we get in Shin Megami Tensei. And in most other games, blindly siding with order is usually presented as the somewhat more harmful option... which would be a point in favour of the Vayne=good, Ashe=EV1L!!!1! line of reasoning. But then there's the matter of the patricide and implied government corruption that Vayne is also ascribed the responsibility for... We don't like that, do we?

[@davemarx7856]

12 is a personal favorite of mine. It's a story full of gray areas. Every person in the story is making the choices that *they* think are right. But they (and we) can't see everything. Little is known about the Occuria, their motives, or what they did to guide the mortal world. We also don't get to see the results of the many decisions that were made, how the future would be affected. In the end, everyone was doing what they thought was best and right.... except that one wolverine looking Judge. 😒 That guy was just a monger and reveled in destruction. Plus... IVALICE ALLIANCE ✊😲

[@Padrier958]

Vayne is ruthless, shady, power hungry, and might have a noble goal, but not noble means. Thing about FF12 is that it's a political campaign more than anything, there's no right and wrong, just sides. But Vayne is attacking and conquering HUMANS and not the Occuria with Nethicite, he is backstabbing and tricking HUMANS and not the Occuria. He is actively dominating and conquering HUMAN lands and not fighting the Occuria's hold. It's up to you to decide if he's inhuman in his conquest or not, or if you're willing to accept his politics, speeches and ways of reaching his goals. But that is what makes him an amazing villain, one of the best villains.

[@Tython82]

Well we do sort of get to face Lindzi, just as a part of Bhunivelze's weapon when he summons both gods to do battle with Lightning.

[@ktonirian4274]

I didn’t play to FF 12 or 13, but as far as I’m concerned I can say that you’re wrong about who is the real villain in FF 7. It’s someone a lot more hateful, that some might have forgotten because the point of view you have don’t make him that important. Someone that you kill before even Sephiros, but also someone that was the origin of all the FF7 stories. The original, Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus, all those stories were ignited by him: Hojo the mad scientific. Without Hojo, no Genova cells experimentation, Angel and Genesis would have be born as normal human, no Sephiros at all, Vincent wouldn’t have been killed and wouldn’t have become what he became with Chaos, Zack wouldn’t have died, or at least not for the same reason, even Cloud wouldn’t have been like the Cloud we know: no Genova cell in his body, no identity problem, just the timid and young troopers with no enough talent to be a SOLDIER. If we take it at a biggest scale, the whole war that happen just before the original FF 7, the one that you only see a little in Crisis Core, wouldn’t have happen the same because the SOLDIER wouldn’t even exist. Hojo, the true villain of FF 7. Not the biggest enemy, nor the hardest to defeat in battle. But the most evil and important villain of the whole story. He represent the madness of science and high level technology in FF7. As for the other, I stopped at FF 10.

[@epsilon5193]

I have to disagree with you on FF12. It is Ashe (well Reddas), not Vayne, who ends up destroying the Sun Cryst, destroying the Occuria's ability to manipulate the humans. As Well, Vayne actually usurps the Senate after he murders his own father. He frames the senate then has the Judges declare emergency powers to himself. He also moves to start a War with Rozzaria, using the Dalmascan resistance of a pretense. Vayne shows little care for "Freeing mankind" until after Cid dies. I'd always assumed that was because Venat was manipulating him, much like Occuria do for all mankind.

[@Dazreiello-old]

Didnt Jenova also need a viable host to "reunite" herself with and to essentially resurrect? Couldnt that just be what the One winged angel form was? Her true form coming to light THROUGH Sephiroth as he was mutating and accumulating her cells through these "Clone"? Just something I noticed as well, heart could be below where the mass of wings are (Referring to One-WInged angel), since her heart was also HUGE and optimally set beneath her or behind her I guess.. Afterall, wasn't it said Jenova couldve been seen as an angel coincidentally? Heaven's Dark Harbinger and such or something.

[@edwardperez3535]

Ok Rin in X was a joke but in FF7 the REAL villain is Shinra. In all seriousness without Shinra, Jenova would’ve never been discovered, Gaia wouldn’t be draining the Life Stream, Sephiroth would of never been born. That’s direct antagonism to AVALANCHE, Cloud and the other Shinra soldiers, all of Sephiroths pain. It’s Shinra Corp.

[@symbiote3220]

I don’t know where you’re going...seph IS because he outlasted hojo (who just wanted him to destroy everything) And jenova...because he was the one controlling her from the mako whirlwind Hojo IS FAR from the progenitor of Gaia’s problems GENSIS, is shown in CC to have been the seed and not jenova, that had mind controlled seph...the misunderstood files is the only thing that brought seph to his “mother”..she had NO will over him

[@whisperingshadowXI]

Loved the ff12 discussion about how Vayne was trying to free Humanity. Sadly you still overgeneralized a decent bit with Vayne (which is expected given the limited amount of time you had to talk about it in the video). Vayne is a level headed thinker and knows when to project authority or respect. But he has done some incredibly stupid or needlessly cruel things that do not contribute to his plans more so than his own ego. *Vayne's Dumb Shit List:* -Orchestrated the King's assassination at a peace treaty signing (where he probably could have ordered the King to hand over the stone anyways or face complete annihilation) -Kills his father to become Emperor simply because he could (there's no indication that becoming Emperor helped him "put history back in the hands of man") -Frames and dissolves the only known elected government body aka the Senate on the flimsiest of evidence to seize complete control of the Archadian Empire (again not beneficial to his plan as apparently both him and Dr. Cid knew where the Sun Cryst was and could have just sent someone to destroy it) -Orders a Judge Magister executed when he is called out on all these clearly anti-democratic maneuvers that clearly violated his Empire's core government system (A rather annoying plot hole in a relatively well-written story because somehow there is no civil war that erupts when Vayne directly attacks the Archadian military, the only real ally he has beyond Dr. Cid. You'd think that executing one of your Empire's premier military leaders under highly sketchy circumstances would cause some sort of uprising among the soldiers but apparently no one gives a shit) -Using Manufacted Nethicite in human experimentation that have been shown to cause fatal backlash on its human subjects and painfully kill them. Clearly some ethical implications here. -Allows/Possibly orders the butchering of war refugees and a pacifist religious leader in a supposedly neutral zone because apparently that makes things easier (it was apparent the Grand Kilkas was not aligned with the Occuria's interests because he kept questioning Ashe's intent on revenge and apparently Vayne can't send a spy or a scout to get the information himself even though Larsa is there and probably would gladly tell his brother if he bothered to tell Larsa ANY of his plans but that's a different rant lol). -Prepares to butcher an entire army that signaled they were ready to surrender when he showed they were outmatched simply because he could. Apparently mass murder is ok instead of trying to craft terms of surrender that would prevent the support and rallying of such a force under his occupation (like he really should have the first time around he occupied Rabanastre but whatever). Plus he already had a weapon of super sky-fortress (that could NOT be replicated due to how it was directly made by the Sun Cryst's power) and achieved his goal of destroying the Sun Cryst. Everything else is just petty desire/mindset at this point. Plus Dr. Cid did utilize the Esper Famfrit against Ashe, so clearly Vayne's forces were not above enslaving demons to do their bidding as well (a theme repeated and subverted in FFXV) All in all, Vayne is a flawed character. Brilliant and manipulative, but also paranoid about loyalty and Machiavellian to a fatal fault (when he drives Drace, Larsa and ultimately Gabranth to betray him which cost him everything in the end). You could claim that none of this matters as history is written by the victor and none of this matters, but then why even bother talking about any of this at all? It's a intellectually lazy argument that is the metaphorical equivalent of overturning the gaming table because you don't want to admit you lost which is not a flattering image FYI. However there is another theory: Venat planned on having Vayne die all along. She needed Vayne and Dr. Cid to execute her plans and knew each of them while gifted were very flawed individuals that she could manipulate into killing themselves. She fed their egos with her plans and their roles in it and made them think they would be the new gods of Ivalice and allowed them to make incredibly reckless decisions. The reason? She did not want ANYONE who benefited from her power to live to become the new Occuria. This included herself as she was the last Occuria in Ivalice after their connection was sundered by the Sun Cryst's destruction. With Dr. Cid dead, she only needed to kill herself and Vayne and she found the perfect way to do both at once. She fused with Vayne to trick him into thinking he could still win against Ashe's party with the Occuria's powers but Venat actually implied that they would die together by saying: _"You shall not tread this path alone. Together we go."_ Thus passed Archadian Emperor Vayne Solidor and Venat, the only Occuria on Ivalice. In the end, only Venat's plans came to fruition and not Vayne's plan. Vayne wanted to become the first secular Dynast King (and probably would look for a way to become immortal via research from the Drakklor Laboratory and become a secular Occuria). Venat wanted no one to wield such power, even herself, which is why she betrayed the Occuria in the first place. History would now truly be determined by the hands of Ivalice's people. The three powers had not shifted their balance in any practical way. Rabanastre, though once more it's own kingdom with Queen Ashelia B'nargan Dalmasca as it's ruler, they were still a relatively small kingdom trapped between two Empires that needed peace to reign if they didn't want to be conquered yet again. Archades is now ruled by Archadian Emperor Larsa Solidor with Judge Magisters Gabranth (Basch) and Zargabaath at his side and is perhaps one of the first Archadian Emperors in Ivalice's history who genuinely wants peace instead of war. The Rozzarrian Empire emerged almost completely unscathed as they were fighting with Ondore's Resistance Fleet as it's proxy against the Archadian Empire the entire time, plus there is no evidence to suggest the Occuria meddled with their forces at all in any point of the story (the only force that was always master of it's own destiny ironically). Plus, they were too chicken to launch a war against Archades without justification and clearly had members of the royal family that also desired peace. Thus the peace and balance between the three powers in maintained and done so by mortal hands. Also: Archades supposedly has a racist doctrine against non-humes as evidenced by Gabranth's lecturing Ba'Gamnan. This is never further explored nor addressed or even resolved in any way as far as I can tell. Another annoying plot hole sadly :( *edited this to only talk about Vayne because realized this post is a tad long haha

[@Artahe]

While Etro is the Big Good deity of Final Fantasy XIII trilogy, s/he's also pretty much the unwitting instigator of doom. Her intervention at the end of Final Fantasy XIII to help the heroes fuck up the timeline so severely that, down the line, it becomes the reason for Caius' start of darkness (long to explain, but the timeline being shattered to endless possibilities means that Yeul, who Caius adores, will die and be reborn ever and ever again while him being immortal means that he will have to witness that for the entirety of Time). And if you've played Final Fantasy XIII-2 and Lightning Returns, SPOILERS if you didn't, but you know that Caius pretty much destroyed the entire universe by forcing Etro's gate opened by manipulating the events so that no matter what you did, there's nothing that could have prevented that. Basically, by helping a group of people, she fucked up the timeline in such a way that it led down to its destruction. When you think about it, even if Fabula Nova Crystallis ultimate villain is Lindzei, and the main antagonists are Orphan, Barthandelus, Caius and Bhunivelze, the biggest good is the one that, in the end, brings, unwittingly, the destruction of the universe.

[@ShazidusSnake]

The Occuria were not evil, like Peasant is trying to portray them. There is a TON of religious allegory in this game. I'm surprised he missed it. Basically, the Occuria were God and the Venat were Satan. Satan (in Christian religion) is formerly an Angel who was cast out of Heaven. The Venat were once a part of the Occuria, but were cast away, as well. The Venat wanted mankind to have control over their own destiny, the Occuria wanted mankind to remain dependent on them. But (for those of you who are Religious out there) we know that the plan God has for our lives is better than our own and when we try to play by our own rules, we often mess things up. So *puts on Tin Foil cap* whose to say that the Venat helping mankind free themselves from the Occuria is the best choice? If you go back and play the game from that perspective, you'll see that FF XII is about Satan helping mankind free themselves from God. *Moreover, Vayne killed his father. How is he a hero?

[@WandererEris]

I personally prefer Jenova being the true villain, as she's a much more interesting character. I'm not saying Sephiroth wasn't an active player, but we know Jenova is a manipulator, especially during Advent Children where she takes on Sephiroth's form to torment Cloud. If it was Sephiroth in control during Advent Children there would be no reason for him to turn back into Kadaj when he was defeated. In FFXII, it is definitely the Occuria that are the villains. I don't think Vayne would be good for the world, but there is definitely room for a sequel focusing on the downfall of the Occuria. About Ondore: It's a running theme in the Ivalice games that you can't trust historical accounts, and FFT is based around someone trying to discover the true history.

[@AbrasiveTruth]

For me FFXII posed the question: Is it okay to nuke people with magic rocks if a god-like being tells you to? And even though I found Ashe to be a self-centered putz, she eventually realized... No, it's no okay to nuke people with magic rocks because a council of god-like beings told me to. So it's more about Ashe growing up than being a "hero". That said, trying to create artificial magic nuke rocks doesn't really make you a "hero" either in my book. No one is a black and white hero, because even Reddas, who does the truly heroic thing, is doing it in atonement of his past. FFXII is a story of No Heroes, but that doesn't change the fact that Balthier is the leading man.

[@ic0n67]

Oh Jesus Christ ... Sephiroth doesn't know who Cloud is at the beginning of the game because THAT ISN'T SEPHIROTH. That is JENOVA, the shapshifter, taking on Sephiroth's form. This is why when they slice of Sephiroth's arm a tentacle falls to the ground. Why is she taking Sephiroth's form? Possibly because her head is in the real Sephiroth's possession in the Northern Crater encased with him in the crystallized mako. The clones are going to the Northern Crater for the same reason the rest of JENOVA is going there: She wants to use Sephiroth as her new vessel and use Meteor to fly to another world and and repeat the process all over again because, as a parasite, it is what she does.

[@Joshua_Shadow_Manriguez]

If you're focusing on Villains, I'd like to point out that Cloud is the only one of Sephiroth and himself to truly overcome Jenova's mind control, because of Tifa helping him. On 12, that's just war. Who's the "bad guy" is totally subjective. No matter what they're fighting for or against, both sides see themselves as "The good guys".

[@ravoniesravenshir3926]

I Always thought Jenova was a Plot Device, and that the real Villian was basically Heddger, and Hojo, from the background, Sepheroth was basically some dude with a god complex and mommy issues, but hearing what Jenova is... makes sense... but what if, they became symbiotic... not just 2, but one... I hope remake clears this up. What the hell is that thing that is present with Vaine and Cid throughout FFXII? I would sat that is the Villain, more than anything. Always in the way and that crap.

[@Olivia-W]

FFXII Cid and Vayne tried to do a lot of really good stuff. Ashe... Ashe was bent of destroying the world most of the game :/. Vaan was a thief, Balthier and Fran... well, they were sky pirates. Which means they probably stole/looted/killed/etc, and Penelo is just useless. Basch? Imagine his state of mind after being tortured 2 years by _his own brother._ Joy.

[@jd_9144]

Hey Pez, go take a look at your video from June 8, 2016 about Open World real talk. At 18:35 there's some clips from pre-release FFXV, gameplay as Noctis with a combat system that looks like a cross between Noctis' and Gladio's system. Looks interesting to me, what do you think?

[@thexspikes]

Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells before birth by Hojo (big villain) , he finds out bout it in goes against Shinra & decides to follow what Jenova was trying to do - find a new holy place by using the planet as a ship in destroy all others without Jenova cells. Cloud threw Sephiroth into the life stream (cloud/zack then get infected by hojo), Sephiorth got struck in a crystal of materia but the Jenova cells in the life stream projected Sephiroth to follow his will (shadow/monster) which also effected Cloud to hand over the Black Materia in then Sephiroth was freed from the Materia. The end story, Sephiroth / Jenova worked together - Hojo, Shinra is another evil group & in Cloud in co the rebel party, you take shinra down & they end up doing some good.