Bike Geometry Explained: The Bicycle Flavor Wheel!

[@urbanprimitive]

That just summed up 4 books and two years of research on bike geometry and handling in less than 15 minutes.

[@nopets]

Pretty sure Russ's shirt is the same flavor as that bike.

[@scrubby0]

Thank you for the link to Bike Insights! What a great website for geometry nerds!

[@KoroWerks]

there's also a handlebar comparison tool whatbars.com/ both this and bike insights are missing a lot of modern, and some discontinued models, but they've both helped me compare used products to other bikes before i even message the seller, so if you're shopping for a gravel bike, take a look on CG, there's likely something reasonable that works better than you'd expect. of course they have to list the model for that, but generally i try to buy from bike people, not garage cleanouts.

[@thestinkywhistler]

From personal experience, I find all of these rules to be generally true, but I think it is important to mention that combinations of these different aspects can have surprising results.

[@nateisright]

Great video Russ! I’ve never heard of Bike Insights until now. This is like candy for a bike nut.

[@joeb6955]

Can see the tie-in to the new service you announced. Would have jumped on it a few months ago. Have watched enough of your videos to see that you are the perfect person to interpret and translate the geometry numbers into plain-language, how-does-it-ride, decision-making info. Plus, it's evident from your PLPTalks that you are a good listener. We just landed on a pair of hers-'n-his Salsa Vaya framesets, built out for us by a wonderful LBS. Before then I made myself nuts trying to understand the key geometry factors for us. Didn't know about Bike Insights and created an MS-Excel spreadsheet to compare all the geometry of all the bikes I was considering. REALLY happy with our new bikes but mainly it illustrates that even a blind squirrel occasionally finds an acorn. Wishing you much success with the new venture. P.S.: You may be agnostic in most respects, but don't you think you're kind of an evangelist for 650b? Just sayin'.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Brand agnostic but not tire size agnostic :)

[@BradWadeNL]

This is amazing! I was bouncing back and forth between this video and bikeinsights. I've now learned why my AWOL handles the way it does. Thank you Russ!

[@leahmoynihan5230]

This was super helpfu! I sometimes feel like I’m drowning in unfamiliar terms when I’m watching videos, and this went a long way to helping me make sense of what you describe.

[@dyj1948]

A great and easy presentation on the relationship between geometry and the type of rides that would benefit. Excellent work as usual, Russ.

[@rolandmarichal1250]

Great info! Best that I’ve seen on the subject. Simple, straightforward, clear

[@davem80000]

Russ, important topic and well done. Worthy of a deeper dive for a future episode.

[@AlS-zg4di]

Russ.... no kidding.... the Bike Whisperer is a GREAT idea. People will pay for advice. I just bought a Velo Orange Polyvalent because of you and Ms. Cools on Wildeberry's channel... It arrives on Friday!!!

[@joshmccullock4996]

The Bike Whisperer service is a wonderful idea!

[@mattdelcomyn8012]

Really glad you’re getting into the numbers. Helps make the ride reviews more subjective. Great job simplifying bike geometry. And cool idea: Bikewhisperer! Good stuff Russ.

[@beebopcola]

Great job distilling the numbers! I wasn't able to relate the data back to bike feel until now. Thank you!

[@ABFPV584]

Well you pretty much helped me put to rest any questions if I got the right bike. The bike whisperer idea is a fantastic one!!

[@sameoldcircus]

This is great! Love the idea of the flavor wheel to give a better understanding of the feel of bikes.

[@MsGscoot]

Super helpful man youre the goat. You have no idea how helpful this is and that tool you mentioned is incredibly powerful. Thank you - you just got a nother subscription

[@tomordr]

Nice video Russ. I have an n+2 problem of wanting a fast feeling light road bike with some cushioning of the fork (wrist issues) and a second bike, steel perhaps, rack capable but not an overweight slug so I may well utilize your service to help select that second bike need. I think you have a good understanding of bikes and ability to communicate it.

[@danmathis4046]

Well...congratulations! You just keep getting better. This is excellent!! Even the racing nerd shows don't have this quality explanation!!! Thanks & you're the Best!!!

[@ssquared8076]

This is really good well put together information. I am currently starting my hunt for my next gravel bike and this info is exactly what I needed to start narrowing down options

[@SamuSaurama]

Excellent info, thanks! I have an eFatbike for Finland's snowy winter but your channel has made me seriously consider a gravel bike for summer :)

[@maz_uwu]

This was super helpful! Was able to compare my current bike (surly CC) to my last one (trek crossrip) to really see why I much prefer the CC for the kind of ride I want

[@JasonBerryOnFire]

I commented on another thread about how cool this chart is. So I'll just give you a quick thanks here for how immediately helpful this chart is. I'm printing it out and will start using this language to describe bikes.

[@JasonBerryOnFire]

This is kind of a bike-nerd idea, but would you consider creating one of your t-shirts with the flavor wheel on it?

[@jonlouis2582]

Tune in for the shirts, stay for the content. Brilliant.

[@meredithnielsen7035]

Great video. I’m shopping for a new bike and this info will be hugely helpful.

[@gffriedman]

Love the bike insights website. I always wanted a Black Mountain Cycles Monster Cross Disc. Turns out I kind of already have one. Compare the 57cm Salsa Vaya and the Lg MCD. It’s almost the same bike but the MCD has 12 mm shorter chain stays. Almost everything else is really close. On the other hand, I always thought the Vaya would be a perfect all-rounder if only it had shorter stays. So I guess I still want a BMC MCD...

[@jasonsaleh7920]

Outstanding video. Great explanations. Thank you.

[@gradywright]

Thanks so much for posting this. A video I have been looking forward to.

[@gjtramey]

Thanks Russ. This is a great place to start. What I don't think you address fully is how these different components of a bike's geometry interact with each other. And I think that is still somewhat of a black box. The Jones LWB bike threw all of my previous knowledge into shambles. It has a hugely long wheelbase with 483mm/19" chainstays, a 67.5 degree head angle with 76mm of rake, and a lowish BB drop. These unusually long components interact in a really interesting and fun way. One point you make does not match my experience with short chainstay bikes. I find short CS bikes to not climb steep terrain well as I struggle to keep the front end on the trail. A longer CS really helps with that. Thank you Russ for taking on this complex topic.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Extreme mountain bike terrain breaks a lot of these rules.

[@Dave435l]

Super nice video for a fellow bike nerd! Never used bike insights and the consult service is a creative idea I've never seen a content creator use before

[@AlMartinsvidplace]

Brilliant! It took me many hours of research and head scratching to come to similar conclusions. My first road bike was a CX bike...twitchy and I felt "on top of" the bike. Not what I ultimately wanted for the type of riding I ended up wanting to do. Second bike excellent after research...so add a time machine feature to the bike wheel Russ

[@johnbodenchuk514]

Great explanation. I'm looking for a drop bar all-road bike and now better understand how to compare the number between my Jones LWB 29+ Ti Spaceframe, Surly ECR and Salsa Bucksaw (yes I have strange bikes that all ride very differently but cover most of what I ride). Because of your channel I'm now looking for a drop bar for gravel and some paved trails N+1. Haven't ridden drops in over 30 years so wish me luck. Thanks

[@dcv9460]

Russ, you're AWESOME! 😎👍 Thank you 💯

[@1gregalbert]

Excellent information- very informative 👍

[@ttiwehde]

Age factor is changing what “flavor “ I seek in my next bike. 50 years on diamond frames and the search for the holy grail ride quality continues! Great info Russ

[@johnbodenchuk514]

For my 59th birthday last summer I got a Jones LWB Ti 29-plus Spaceframe, not his diamond. Over 2000 miles on it including my first century and it is the most comfortable and safe feeling bike I've ridden. Road, gravel and single track. Check out Jeff Jones video on his geometry. Riding doesn't have to hurt.

[@ttiwehde]

It’s funny that I own a Jones plus ti LWB diamond frame large with Titanium truss fork and maybe I should have got the space frame....will have to check it out next time I go to Southern Oregon to visit family, thanks John for your input. Enjoy the ride.

[@malcontent_1]

Thanks, Russ - this was very helpful

[@richhughes77]

Loved this instructional video

[@sanfransimo]

Great rundown of how measurements translate into ride characteristics. Might add that a longer chainstay will prevent the front from coming off the ground during extreme uphills and also prevent the back wheel from spinning out on loose terrain uphills.

[@coopwalker]

sim1tti not so sure about the spinning out on uphill part.

[@JpDubbed]

If you had to choose, what is one bike that can do it all? 50-70% road & 30-50% gravel and/or mtb paths. I used to have a cannondale synapse carbon and it was amazing, just a bit too "springy" for me. Although I do want something that can snap into action, I like stability and not fearing for my life going down a hill 😂 I'm considering a new purchase, and there are a few I'm looking at and a few feature's I'd like: - Aluminum frame (Unless carbon won't crack on me from a spill lol) - Thru axles - Clearance for 38/40c tires(I think that's plenty, right?) What would even be the 29er equivalent for a gravel bike? like...29ers to c tires...? - Complete shimano tiagra/105 groupset preferably - I really like the Giant D-fuse seatpost from what I see. - Hydraulic disc brakes - unless you'd like to convince me I'd be better with mechanical. - More of a relaxed geometry. Options: ***I think the shops near me try to always put a matching shimano crankset on their bikes, so I tried to look past that in these specs. - Giant Contend Ar 1 2020 - Giant Contend Ar 2 2020 - Giant Contend SL 2 disc 2020 (if it can fit bigger tires) - Giant Revolt Advanced 2 2019 - Giant Revolt Advanced 2 2020 (highest cost I want to pay) - Giant Revolt Advanced 3 2020 - Trek Checkpoint AL4 2019 - Trek Checkpoint ALR4 2019 - Trek Checkpoint ALR5 2020 Thank you in advance!!!

[@mjenk20236]

Excellent analysis, Russ. In addition to geometry, factors that strongly influence feel are tire size and front load inertia (weight). I'm sure you've had the experience of a change of tires or redistribution of load has made a bike better or worse.

[@peppermintp2610]

Dear Bike Professor Roca: Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! I love this explanation. I have been picking it up a bit from watching all of your other videos, but explaining it all (so well) in this one video helps me understand it all a bit more. :-) Love the "Flavor Wheel" concept too! Were you aware that your shirt matches the bike? (Of course you were, what am I thinking!)

[@nmonye01]

Great video. Very informative ❤

[@automat8]

Great intell, thank you Russ. Great idea the Whisperer.

[@automat8]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eKDMYYt7op5gaqc

[@BikeTouringMike]

Clicked right away when I saw the thumbnail. Hilarious! Russ, you look like I did when I was a little kid going around licking frozen lamp posts in the winter.

[@craigtorso]

Love the idea for the new service!

[@walkwithmetravel3596]

So, in 2020, what is the gravel trend? (?short chainstays with high trail?) Thanks for the bike insight reference. Have too many bikes and am converting a hybrid to gravel drop bars and found out that the hybrid is based on the brand's cross geometry which had relatively high trail. Yippee! Free 'gravel bike' I already had in the stable! Love the reviews, but so much KZbin is reviewing gear and less time riding around. Thanks, again.

[@twistythistle]

Excellent synthesis!

[@GasmanA]

Love the flavor wheel!!

[@robertseevers379]

Feeling educated! Thanks Russ!

[@GeoffMcLelland]

Hilarious! Like the flavour wheel. You should add the chainstay lengths to the rear section and the trail ranges to the front end handling sensations

[@packratty]

Since you've gone into this in excruciating detail - can you tease apart the effects of the secondary characteristics - why would a frame designer choose to achieve a particular trail number with rake only, or getting the same trail with more rake and more offset? I'm interested in the handling aspect of it, not how these things might be used to adjust bike fit (toe overlap etc.).

[@cameronbracken6223]

Even though there's no more Bikes n Bourbon, it's good to see you're still tasting things on our behalf! I'm thinking that Crust tasted like a real hoppy IPA. You know, tart and snappy just the way we like 'em

[@ianmcc2420]

So helpful! Thanks.

[@dmcg2511]

Haha bummer, I just purchased a Surly Midnight Special yesterday... I would have totally done the Bike Whisperer thing it’s been a really hard purchase decision for me for 6 weeks now haha

[@mancello]

By licking that fork does it mean you SPEAK WITH FORKED TONGUE?😆

[@dpmccutcheon]

Very informative!

[@kennoon7177]

Just what I’ve been looking for, so if I understand this right I send you the specs of my favorite riding bike and you’ll help me with the next bike purchase so I get it right the first time ( just gave away my new Super six evo high mod because I didn’t like it after the purchase). My friend however seams to be getting along fine with it but my wife was not pleased I’m now bike shopping again so I need to get it right this time.

[@suryajala]

This has to be a first! Another patch for the shop!

[@cameronbracken6223]

Agreed, that’s me too, actually. Maybe see you next month at Swift

[@grandad1982]

Very nicely broken down.

[@dougnevitt2257]

Excellent content! Thanks

[@TomGurion]

Great video as usual! One question though: How does the upper body position fit with this in terms of more / less upright riding? Or maybe it's something you can always change by changing the stem / handlebar? E.g, Laura's position on most of your B-rolls looks quite upright, I think it's the warbird I have in mind. Can you tell why? Would love to hear your (and others) opinions on that.

[@youtubeperson1856]

Great shirt 🌸

[@bmi1965]

Dude great info!

[@Geeios1]

Maybe add a geometry point. The seat tube angle, 72.5° to 75°. The closer to 75° the harsher the ride, less shock absorbing, body weight gets dumped to the handlebars making the bike "twitchy", less power to the pedals. The opposite is true closer to 72.5.

[@wolfeb99]

Bike whisperer is an excellent idea I would definitely have gone for it before I settled on my cutthroat

[@poiXquared]

I'm a simple man, I click on a video, I see a man licking a fork, I click subscribe.

[@jeffreyrule8143]

Thanks Russ.

[@noice9709]

Ingenious! Thank you : )

[@davidmithen9223]

Love a spicy rear end :D Think you could add floppy to your wheel for the front end section. I have a mtb bike that is long and slack in the front which made for a very floppy feel. I did not like they way it cornered and it was difficult for me to hold a smooth line. Swapped my stem from a 90mm to a 30mm and paired it with wider bars. The shorter stem solves the floppy feel and the wider bars helps dampen the twitch. Much better. Great video, love your channel and can you please mention the fabric type of your riding shirts.

[@iWillbike]

Good vid, Russ.

[@anthonyd9984]

Is that a Breezer Radar review coming down the pipeline?

[@BrentZahradnik]

Dang that's a cool idea for a service, bike fit consultation. I might go for it! Where is the link?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Its in the description of the video. To be clear its not a bike fit, but focusing more on how you want the bike to ride and get you in the ballpark.

[@BrentZahradnik]

@@PathLessPedaledTV how about just talking bikes in general? I'm working on plans for a build later this year.

[@solarguy6043]

How about a dedicated video for recumbent bikes and trikes??? I have one. It's.......different.

[@hermeneut]

Hi from Germany and thanks for your inspiring passion and sharing tons of knowledge! I'm confused know. What says more about the overall riding-feel of a bike (nervous, neutral, stable, sluggish): the wheelbase, the chainstay or the trail? I'm interestad in a titanium-frame with a 63,9mm trail but a quite short wheelbase with 1015-20 and chainstay 425mm. I'm a bit worried, that the bike is getting to nervous for my taste. Unfortunately, I cant test it anywhere. Thanks for your advice!

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

That’s going to handle like a road bike. So definitely more on the responsive end of the spectrum.

[@evelasq1]

What would you consider an Italian road bike with an approximate measurement of 355.6 on the chain stay? What kind of setup is it on your chart?

[@DDDorq]

Best screen grab ever.

[@basengelblik5199]

We should team up and make a more advanced video on bicycle desing and ergonomics. Reach is such a stupid number and many people don't understand. Also the seat poost being the same angle for all lengths whilst the chainstay remains the same length. There is no theory of relativity in frame design.

[@Ray-dz9fn]

Thanks so much for this feature and Insights website link. P.S. Could have been worse - could have been a bowling ball Russ was licking.

[@AlS-zg4di]

Like Jesus from the Big Lebowski...

[@simplydebes]

Hi Russ, Do chainstay lengths change as you go up in frame size? As in your small frame to my extra large?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

No. Typically the same thru a size run.

[@simplydebes]

@@PathLessPedaledTV So what you feel on a small frame could be different to a rider on a large frame? (Newbie here)

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

John de Bes chainstay is usually locked in. What changes thru a size run in terms of handling is headtube angle and fork rake to prevent toe overlap in smaller frames. Typically the smaller size bikes get the short end of the stick esp in 700c bikes.

[@pedaldriven417]

Where does the recumbent bike fit on that flavor wheel?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Don't know. Haven't ridden one.

[@peppermintp2610]

I imagine that recumbents might need their own flavor wheel given their various lengths and configurations? Perhaps there is a KZbin channel expert that focuses on recumbents and the like? :-)

[@OliverJustChillin]

You left out a middle spot in the circle for the Goldilocks zone, aka “Floopy Flappy Ride Quality”

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

That is where the Most Supple Bike award comes in :)

[@damienm8416]

How funny , in Germany there is a thing that when you lick something ( usually drink or food ) it goes into your posession .

[@AI-xi4jk]

Brilliant

[@schadlarry]

I double dog dare you to try that in December.

[@B_COOPER]

Russ, to be honest… nobody questions why you are licking your bike… lol

[@jacquesconnard]

Apologies, Russ... yawn. Bring back the whiskey!

[@palebluerider]

Hey heads up, it's Velo ORnge. Not Velo OrAHnge. They from Glen Burnie Maryland, not France.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

It’s a joke.

[@OriginalGabriel]

It's all about the mullet

[@Skyhook77]

awesome

[@curbowman]

Somehow I thought that pink bike would taste like Pepto-Bismol.

[@phillycheesetake]

BUY THE CRUST!

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Ha. Tried to but Matt needs it back for another trip.

[@joro8604]

Well done. Not a commonly well explained topic.

[@BrianRouse]

Yes, I am in to food. 😜

[@davidward4329]

10/10

[@EZK4ME93]

Lowkey licked my bike after this lmfao

[@philb4493]

Too funny!

[@Yhuannenorelle]

bro, pinoy ka ba nahihiwagahan kasi ako sayo,

[@Radnally]

Funny and a little creepy