Billy Robinson's wrestling is nonsense!

When Billy Robinson last came to the UK I trained with him for several days and made copious notes. When I was packing to move house I found those notes.
I now have a newfound respect for wrestling writers as my notes don't seem to make an awful lot of sense.
Please consider supporting me on Patreon: / englishmartialarts

[@Generic549]

I've got a notebook somewhere from my BJJ training that just says "side control - underhook and glute raise spin". This is the sort of thing archaeologists will be writing essays on in 500 years time.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I certainly hope so!

[@brianknezevich9894]

I saw an article from April 1... A month later... Saying "Archeologists reach consensus"... I didn't realize the date, and I was absolutely stunned that archeologists reached a consensus on anything, I've taken a few classes and done a very small amount of the work when I lived across the pond. I don't think they could agree on any one color, say blue, unless there is an expert on the color blue... And even then 1/3 of them would say it's brown "for ritual purposes"... I dread to think what future archeologists might think or assume about us.

[@markbroughton961]

"Archaeologists believe that the "Gluter Aisespin" was important for religious or ceremonial purposes..."

[@SpawnofHastur]

@@markbroughton961 "Or possibly used in fertility rituals."

[@RoyalMountedAnkleBiters]

Lol, "Religious ceremonial mating ritual discovered written on thin slices of ancient trees."

[@MarslArts]

You are so lucky having trained with Billy. Puts you in a special class of people!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It was a great opportunity and I'm very glad I had the chance I did.

[@bankuei]

I found a lot of my older notes end up being a combination of stick figure drawings plus descriptive terminology (often self generated). I would often use a description like "R Hand to back of neck, push down to L hip" knowing that I could basically flip the L/R for opposite side use but I needed a clear starting point from one side. The ease of phone and digital video is a godsend these days.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Isn't it just!

[@brianknezevich9894]

I've been trying to show the kids not just mirrored technique, but to understand which side is which in video... Somehow my daughter has better longsword form than I, but gets left and right wrong. The son is ambidextrous, so that's really no help. I really only learned it completely intrinsically by yelling at stupid teenagers and grunts. It was never important before... Trying to tell someone where the correct tool is across a building, on ladders, for example.

[@vyderka]

when I was a teenager I compiled techniques in a notebook copying by hand the drawings from all the books on martial arts that were available in eastern Europe in the 80s. I even got creative and I combined them into my own combinations. All that effort! The notebook is long gone, oh I wish I could steal a glimpse on it. It was a start of a long journey into the world of combat sports.

[@melvindunn2234]

I love the half halch. I learned it wrestling when I was younger. It's also called a "cow catcher" or a "cement mixer" in America. Love cranking that chin pick at the end as well.

[@Zwerchhau]

You should get some random folks together who've never studied wrestling, have them study your notes and present their interpretations to you like it's HEMA! Give a prize to whomever is closest!

[@benstoyles1297]

I'm currently writing up notes on all the catch moves I know with us much detail as possible (because I keep forgetting things) and it's just so labour intensive. Something that takes two minutes to learn takes an hour to write out with clear instructions and addendums and variations. And my quick notes after class feature some truly atrocious handwriting, spelling and flowcharts.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

The one positive about my notes is how good the handwriting is for me.

[@brianknezevich9894]

I take notes because it helps the memory, just writing it down. I almost don't have to look again. My handwriting has been awful since a series of hand injuries in the late 90's and early aughts.

[@getschwifty9531]

That's because you're being introspective and really putting thought into technique that was muscle memory. If anything, I find writing it helps me have a stronger grasp on the subject.

[@pm7081]

Are there a particular or strict set of moves set out in Catch or is it limitless to what people want to add?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Catch is a rule set and an attitude. One informs the otther. Billy was always very clear that he could teach people to wrestle in the short time he had with them at camps, but he could teach a good grounding of technique, and how to learn. If you left with the right mindset and the ability to add moves to the foundations he provided I suspect he'd have been very happy.

[@pm7081]

@@EnglishMartialArts Thanks for your reply. On a separate point, your note book. You shouldn't be too harsh on yourself, you were making quicks notes during/after lessons on limited time to remember the bullet points, these other writers are sitting back to write books in their spare time. Not quite the same.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@pm7081 that is a good point.

[@ramseydoon8277]

"Put your ear on their back, look 'round" Ahhh, perfectly understandable. Ear on their back, take in the scenery and listen to their spine, they'll tap immediately.

[@markbroughton961]

I think I remember reading a review of your short book on classical pugilism on Amazon that said something like "this guy should not be writing a short book on basic concepts, he should be writing a massive encyclopedia of boxing and wrestling throughout the ages and the different styles and settings". That's the book of yours I'd like to see! Something that draws on all your expertises!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Oh I haven't seen that! What a lovely review.

[@NoneMcNobody]

just like programming, you have to clearly define your variables at the beginning, explaining in painfully exacting detail each position and move. I've learned this the hard way over 30+ years of training. Videos really help with this.

[@ianscott3265]

On a self-interested note, I know you've done quite a bit on the applicability of catch to BBJ and the differences between the two. Have you considered doing anything on the applicability of catch techniques to the thai clinch? Certainly, the pivot step sounds not ulike the stepping techniques used to unbalance an opponent when clinching thai style.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I don't know enough about muay Thai to do it justice, but I know a man who does...

[@cahallo5964]

I have this very strangely translated karate manual (written by a French man and translated into Spanish by the author) and sometimes it's so strange to read, it reads like a fencing manual, very akward geometrical descriptions and misstranslations, but when you decipher his descriptions it's very good, particularly the chapter about training methods, it's also the easier to read. I know this is only slightly related to the video but I wanted to share this

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I think its often true that once you understand the obscure notes they make a lot of sense.

[@ramseydoon8277]

I'm very curious, what's the name of the author and the book? It sounds fascinating!

[@cahallo5964]

@@ramseydoon8277 It's literally called "Karate Manual" the author is E.J Harrison, I have the Spanish version so idk if it is as weird to read in English. He was a 4th Dan in 1959 so he probably broke bricks with his head or something like that.

[@Fred-px5xu]

First let me state the following: Fight team! Now that I have that out of the way, I enjoyed your video lecture thoroughly. I humbly request that you Sir continue producing brilliant little and great video lectures. And thank you once again for bringing joy to an elderly gentleman.

[@MartinGreywolf]

I'm not saying that the usual HEMA treatise isn't worse at communicating information - it definitely is, and it gets worse the forther back you go. Storing information in written text is a technology like any other, and we've been getting progressively better at it, just look at fairly well-structured Fiore and an absolute mess that is I.33. That said, the treatises aren't written as ambiguously as most people tend to think or say, the problem is: they aren't written in English. Yeah. Turns out that even a basic fluency in modern German will let you understant Lichtenauer tradition books a lot better than most of the English translations, especially the older ones that weren't always the best. I remember looking up transcriptions of Codex Dobringer specifically because I've read something in its Enlgish translation that looked dodgy to me, and sure enough, German text was much clearer. This isn't a problem unique to HEMA, reading any book in its original language is a different experience, even with a very good translation. Czech translations of Terry Pratchet's books are legendarily good, but they still don't quite capture the originals. Add severe cultural differences into the mix (Fiore names a dagger technique in a way that has me fully convinced it's a pop culture reference from 1400 AD), and you get ambiguities in the text that are introduced artificially. That does make me wonder how well someone from, say, rural Japan would be able to learn Catch or Greco-Roman from a book translated to Japanese...

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Some years ago I taught a class at Fightcamp where I simply gave people several pages of my notes and left them to try and figure the techniques out. It was my was of introducing them to both original source interpretation, and also wrestling...

[@brianknezevich9894]

Very interesting perspective, and as an amateur linguist of mainly dead Germanic languages and obscure dialects, I don't disagree. And yet here I am, practicing and trying to figure out every nuance of I33... And there's really not much to go on. I think I've translated most everything in Germanic languages for myself, I'm just mostly interested in the earliest interpretations possible, other than Napoleonic era, which is very well described. Mostly interested. Obviously, being here, I'm interested in a whole lot more than that.

[@robertnguyen9493]

Nice video, training with Billy Robinson sounds like it was a blast.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It was a hell of an introduction to Catch!

[@robertnguyen9493]

@EnglishMartialArts but what better way than with the master

[@foyble]

I met billy in the bar of a hotel in about 2010 when I was away with work. I didn’t know anything about the man until I heard Joe Rogan talking about him tonight. He was a class act.

[@bustersales6921]

US NCAA/HS ‘folkstyle’ + good old fashioned traditional boxing. Those are the two most effective forms of combat, period

[@darraghchapman]

I sympathise (though not empathise) with you! It strikes me as being similar to old cooking books like 'Le Répertoire De La Cuisine': the 'recipe' is 'cook the X in X way, then serve with X sauce "in the usual way"', just assuming that you know what you're cooking, how to cook it, and how to prepare the sauce. It also reminds me of TCM forms and how they're taught. Many teachers will show you the form but few will show you the 'intent' behind it, without which it becomes just a dance.

[@brianknezevich9894]

We use this language similarly

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, there are always a lot of assumptions in treatises, old or new!

[@calebr908]

Ya i too really loved doing handwritten and drawn stuff for wrestling when i was younger. I still have a 400 page 2 part book series of hand drawn catch techniques and some information on how they counter and recounter. It was the old books like A Handbook on Wrestling that inspired me. one thing id like to say is that the english language is much simpler now and is always growing simpler. its harder to express as well as they used to. our own noted are best for us to learn faster.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Your notes are obviously better than mine! 🤣

[@calebr908]

@@EnglishMartialArts Don't say that! LOL Most of them dont have any writing. Just lots of hand drawn stuff. My writing isnt what it used to be. Most of the writing was for the stand up stuff and stuff i borrowed from Judo. I wish i could upload photos on here you might find some of it interesting

[@brianknezevich9894]

Wish I could see some of that... I agree about modern language, hence I tend to the archaic and verbose.

[@brianknezevich9894]

FIGHT TEAM! Some of that was completely hilarious, if out of context... "Put ear on back and look around" hehehe... Sounds like some instruction I would have gotten in the Army, training to be a medic. I have tons of old notebooks dating back decades, but they're mostly translations, early medieval history, and literature... I'm still filling them, I appear to be trying to translate everything I can find in dead Germanic languages at least three times. I can't say I'm getting better, just faster. I like the red curtain backdrop in the new studio... And I'm curious about the banner and (what I take to be) the acronym underneath. Also been meaning to ask if that's an antique kukri on the shelf for the last year plus. An interesting video could be done about the similarities between biomechanics of armed and unarmed HEMA. I've noticed more than a couple. I also must ask... What is the European Martial art with the longest provable unbroken tradition? I was just discussing this with the former editor of a US martial arts magazine... I think it's Glíma but I'm not sure. Trying to introduce her to HEMA. Hopefully she shares some of your content with the right people.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Many questions.... EMAA is English Martial Arts Academy. Glimaclaims an unbroken lineage, but there is some debate about how honest that is. Most folk wrestling systems have some form of tradition dating back a long time. There are now a few kukris in the background, I don't think any of them are particularly old, but I do like them. Did I miss anything?

[@brianknezevich9894]

@@EnglishMartialArts I don't think so. Icelandic glíma certainly has a very long verifiable tradition. I haven't been able to find as much in Norse or Danish... I don't do Swedish (yet). It's also possible that Scottish backhold is as old a tradition, you'd know better than I. As far as other questions go, I've been watching your sleeve tattoo grow for years, but some of it is generally obscured or in motion. I've made it this long with no tats, so it's almost a point of pride and individuality, although I've always wanted Celtic knotwork. That's not exactly a question, I know. I've just been watching for long enough to wonder. As far as kukris go, I know you know Matt Easton, I thought it possible you had something special.

[@corrugatedcavalier5266]

I've recently been trying to re-learn a Tai Chi Chuan form that I learned 15 years ago. I have a pretty detailed book, but it's not always clear, and it was written in the 90's. Definitely a crucial skill to be able to communicate accurately and concisely.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yeah, a crucial skill many of us seem to be missing.

[@brianknezevich9894]

I recall reading martial arts books that would certainly be considered antique now, they were old in the 80's and early 90's... In a very small library, in a very small village. I couldn't figure half of it out, if that. Wonder if they still have the books, about a mile walk.

[@billyscott5241]

Great job continue to pass along understood completely great memories as you spoken about your experience.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you!

[@waterbottlecrinkle6973]

Hahah I found my notes from my bjj, jkd, days and the obscure techniques I had worked in from xingyi, capoeira Got rid of all of them get too cringy 😭😭

[@KevinRCMan]

I trained in pro wrestling for a number of years and still have my notebook from day 1 of training.

[@fredazcarate4818]

Well my lad you delivered another mighty blow. However practice does add to perfection. Now that you have acquired insight through experience. Now would be the time to invest on correction and rewriting said note book; so that it can be the bases of a publication on the art of wrestling. Mind you my lad this only a suggestion. Once again God bless you and your entire family. And I wish your wife a happy Mothers Day

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That's definitely worth considering!

[@VictorParlati]

Billy Robinson was a phenomenal wrestler and coach.

[@davidemelia6296]

Hey, you know, it's impressive when wrestlers manage to write anything that's not written in crayon or finger-paint 😉

[@EnglishMartialArts]

LOL! The state of my hands at the moment you aren't far wrong.

[@exploatores]

got any more writing from the grumpy guy. that thought things was unenglish. forgeting that he himself was unenglish. as he was from Scottland.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Oh yes, more to come from him.

[@brianknezevich9894]

There's, like, everything in the one book, I don't think it's all been read yet. And it's absolutely hilarious methinks.

[@spencerantoniomarlen-starr3069]

I much prefer the alternative route of being a combination of delusional and arrogant enough to think that I will either remember all of the techniques I learn or figure out, or figure them out from scratch on the spot in real time lol

[@zachleprieur2871]

Ufc commentary team need something like this and take a class. They rarely talk technique and when they do it's very cumbersome

[@brianknezevich9894]

Methinks some wildlife could do better commentary than the UFC. The birds will be up soon, I could ask a chickadee and get a more coherent response about technique.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I thinknitbis hilarious that thebUFC complain that spectators don't appreciate the ground game, and then have commentators that rarely do more than gloss over what's happening. Love him or hate him at least Joe Rogan understands grappling.

[@brianknezevich9894]

@@EnglishMartialArts I agree about Rogan, to some extent. I don't agree with everything he says, but I agree with alot. And I'm talking politics. I'm a former libertarian, extremely on the Leftist and all inclusive progressive side, his support of Bernie Sanders, well, I can't discredit him after that. And I've met Bernie twice, many years ago before he ran for president. Wonderful man. Literally walked up to me working to discuss wages and benefits and compensation.

[@zachleprieur2871]

@@EnglishMartialArts that's true, politics aside he knows his jujitsu and can tell when some is gonna spin for a kick

[@100dfrost]

Sir, comment: Break the algorithm!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you!

[@brianknezevich9894]

I'm seeing if replying to comments helps. I don't know the dreaded algorithm, but I'd face it with sword and shield. This is my attempt at the less combative version. So far the dreaded algorithm has proven to be no Drengr at all.

[@Stephen_Curtin]

FIGHT TEAM!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

FIGHT TEAM!

[@brianknezevich9894]

FIGHT TEAM!

[@philotown]

Your title says a lot. Click Bait. In my 70s now, ex military and security contractor, from up North, worked most of my life overseas. I was trained by Billy in the grovit and other stuff. Like most of his methods it works for real. Used it.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Did you watch the video?

[@CowcaticalChris]

Sticking something in the comments.

[@smilingmrj2019]

Good to see the EMAA pennant in action

[@brianknezevich9894]

I just asked what it is... I can't definitely figure it out, but it seems obvious you know...

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It's good that I finally have enough space for it. Brian, it is the unicorn logo of my old HEMA group. One of my students made it and I have been treasuring it ever since.

[@brianknezevich9894]

@@EnglishMartialArts I certainly would, as well! I love it, and a gift from a student?! Can't get better!

[@Davlavi]

interesting

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you!

[@RichardRohlin]

Fight team!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

FIGHT TEAM!

[@brianknezevich9894]

FIGHT TEAM!

[@frankiecal3186]

NO U.

[@dalejohnson1954]

You speak of want Billy thought want a beginner catch wrestler should know maybe you could release a u- tube series of want a beginner, intermediate and an advanced catch wrestler should know as away for those of us that don't live in country's that have catch wrestling or as away to halp new students to use a a reference or maybe even a book where you can get know catch wrestlers shoulding the moves and speaking on want they think should be worked on

[@redhead6415]

Your title is misleading. Should be “this video is nonsense”..”don’t watch”

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thanks for boosting the algorithm with your comment!

[@Philo68]

FART TEAM!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

While I appreciate the comment for rhe algorithm... 🤐

[@Halbared]

You hooked me jn with your cheap bait. My training logbooks are hieroglyphs.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I'm glad it worked! 🤣

[@SINdaBlock411]

Cope

[@VictorParlati]

NONSENSE..??????!!!!!!!!🤣 I wonder what the Gracie’s think about that?