Bishop Barron on The God Who Doesn't Need Us

[@BishopBarron]

God doesn't need our confession; but we need it! Confession, as they say, is good for the soul.

[@BishopBarron]

@MrCamus1960 Don't think of heaven as "reward" or "personal gain." Heaven simply means love to the highest degree and love is its own reward.

[@BishopBarron]

@MrCamus1960 You should love him because he's the ultimate good, that which will satisfy the deepest longings of your heart.

[@BishopBarron]

@mjduke27 Because he wanted us to be fully alive. Loving God is good, not for God, but for us.

[@BishopBarron]

Thanks for your feedback. I've done a number of things on the contemporary culture. I do think it's important from time to time to step back and look at the theological framework for our belief.

[@ElGringoJoe]

I wasn't expecting to find something on KZbin concerning God as being so sound an explanation. This is how I viewed God even when I was young. I acknowledged that God is but never thought he would need my attention. And if I should use the term blessed then I must have been as I rarely needed to ask of anything if at all.

[@BishopBarron]

@tmyersable There is no contradiction at all! To say that God has no need of us is by no means equivalent to saying that he is "indifferent" to us, just the contrary. His compassion for us can be total, precisely because he has no need of us. To love, as I explained, is to will the good of the other as other. God can do this to an infinite degree.

[@DiscernersChurch]

God needs us in order to have someone to love. Love is to be given. Love kept to oneself eventually leads to sadness. Even the omnipotent God absolutely needs someone to love.

[@McKinleyHolm-t9q]

Well, still God does not need us. As Bishop Barron explained, God is a communion of divine love, the Trinity. Hence, the love of God is not kept to self but shared within the Trinity. However, in His loving goodness, he still desired to create us to SHARE in His Divine life!! But that does not by any means imply that he need us 😉

[@thespiritualitypodcast]

@McKinleyHolm-t9q so sad.

[@TuckerFinch]

What a video, thank you Bishop Barron, and may God bless you!

[@BishopBarron]

@fancullo He is fully alive when he has realized his deepest longings through union with God.

[@rmlaporte57]

God help me to be fully alive to be partners with your Divine love! Teach me what that feels like purely by your Grace! Thank you for this deep insite on how much I might get to know Gods unfailing Love for the world and for myself.

[@Joh-jf5kc]

"God is love." 1. John 4:16 Love is not only what God is like, it is who he is. Since love only exists in communion, in relationship, God has to be trinitarian. God is a relationship of love. The love between Father and Son. And since God is beyond our human intellect and reason, love can be what Christian theology calls the Third Person of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit. In our human experience, perfect love always seems to manifest itself when we give to others as if we gave to ourselves. It is truly unconditional. Giving unconditionally. And here is God becoming man, living the perfect - sinless - life, taking all punishment upon himself and dying the most dreadful death one can possibly imagine sothat we might be saved. What more could one give - how could one give more unconditionally? Love is who he is. In Thomas Aquinas' words, God is 'ipsum esse per se subsistens'. Being itself subsisting. The sheer act of being. Love. That is what we see in the first books of the bible to our salvation in Jesus Christ. From the God who gives by creating, from the burning bush which was not consumed by its flames to Pentecost. Then, "what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on their heads" - the Holy Spirit. God is love. :)

[@barnabyrt1012]

Brilliant, father, as always.

[@AlejandroGarcia-ek3uy]

God bless you, father Barron.

[@JuniorLewingKoo]

God don't need humans being, however, he loves us. His very nature is to love.

[@mannyfit75]

That judgement is reserve to God alone. For God is the only one who knows the hearts of men.

[@BaronvonKorf]

I think that is the single best argument against the Tyrannical God world view. If he needs nothing from us, and yet we exist and good exists as well, then all of our lives and all of creation is nothing but a loving gift.

[@luigimoonriver2017]

This is my favorite video of yours among the first ones I saw because it is the basic knowledge about God as love that I needed to know first and to know more about. Thank you. 😇🤓

[@yellow_daffodil5689]

Enlightening!

[@mannyfit75]

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.

[@mannyfit75]

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

[@dynamic9016]

Thanks much for this video.

[@BishopBarron]

I don't see why. Jesus' divinity was recognized by those around him who witnessed what he said and did, how he died and how he rose from the dead. I don't see why his writing or not writing has anything to do with it.

[@BishopBarron]

Okay, I give up. God bless you.

[@haudace]

i needed a straight answer that i can understand. a simple yes or no, no question dodging, no conjectures etc... i didn't understand the other posts.

[@ThomistC]

Father, I'm Catholic, and my favorite saint of all time is Augustine. Can you elaborate St. Augustine's famous words from his book Confession, "You have made us for yourself, therefore our heart is restless until it rests in You" with Ireneus's "God does not need us"? At first sight, it seems kind of contracdictory with each other if God created us for his glory and the creation of the world and human was necessary to reveal his infinite glory to himself. And Benedict XVI said in his book Eucharist, "God is a God with us and not just a God in himself and for himself." And it seems that Christ is not Christ apart from his body which is the Church. So, I guess for you all the words above are coherent with each other, but for me not with Ireneus. Can you comment a little bit? Thank you very much. Seokwon Chung

[@mannyfit75]

He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

[@BishopBarron]

@ideasforfeeling No divisions at all? How about the division between right and wrong? The division between Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and decent people? How about the division between a child molester and someone who would never dream of harming a child. Some divisions--those based on violence and hatred--are indeed wrong, but not every division is of that nature.

[@mannyfit75]

Catechism states concerning Non-Christians: 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

[@tmyersable]

@wordonfirevideo Thank you for your answer! With this said, thank you for all that you do. I love all your videos; they are amazing! P.S.; I am in the final stages of applying to be a seminarian for the Diocese of St. Augustine, and I will know whether or not I am accepted by the end of this month. Its priests like you that have influenced me to answer God's call, and I just want to let you know that God is using you in wonderful ways. Thanks, again, for everything, and God Bless!!!

[@mannyfit75]

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

[@BishopBarron]

So what? Socrates didn't write anything. Neither did the Buddha. The truly great masters taught with their lives rather than with words.

[@namnajana6264]

Jesus oll sester.pak rady Amen

[@richgr1123]

@ThomistC Hi Daniel (I'm not Fr. Barron, by the way). St. Augustine goes on to say, "And our hearts are restless until they rest in you." I think the thought of Augustine here fully complements Irenaeus's "The glory of God is man fully alive." If you think Augustine means God made us for Himself in the sense that God needs us, that's a misunderstanding; Augustine means, rather, that our happiness and fulfillment is found in freely participating in God's life of infinite love.

[@sin128]

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." It seems to be heavily implied that they are, no?

[@manutdfan4321]

This question ive been struggling with father, but if God doesnt need anything then why is the act of confession so necessary in the Catholic Church. Thank you for answering father!

[@mannyfit75]

Unrepentent sinners are condemned to hell. It is possible for a Non-Christian to live a righteous life do good and avoid evil.

[@jayyy689]

When he said that to have or experience the glory of God is not to submit but to share in God's goodness. One must fully submit to the ten commandments correct? Did God not give us these commandments out of his Goodness and so therefore by following them we are sharing in his Goodness and expressing our love? Is this man not a priest who practices abstinence in order to submit to God? Is being fully alive not just showing absolute love and appreciation for God and his guidance?

[@Joh-jf5kc]

"God is love." 1. John 4:16 Love is not only what God is like, it is who he is. Since love only exists in communion, in relationship, God has to be trinitarian. God is a relationship of love. The love between Father and Son. And since God is beyond our human intellect and reason, love can be what Christian theology calls the Third Person of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit. In our human experience, perfect love always seems to manifest itself when we give to others as if we gave to ourselves. It is truly unconditional. Giving unconditionally. And here is God becoming man, living the perfect - sinless - life, taking all punishment upon himself and dying the most dreadful death one can possibly imagine sothat we might be saved. What more could one give - how could one give more unconditionally? Love is who he is. In Thomas Aquinas' words, God is 'ipsum esse per se subsistens'. Being itself subsisting. The sheer act of being. Love. That is what we see in the first books of the bible to our salvation in Jesus Christ. From the God who gives by creating, from the burning bush which was not consumed by its flames to Pentecost. Then, "what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on their heads" - the Holy Spirit. God is love. :)

[@TheBlackCoug]

If God does not need us, are our actions of any value at all? That is, it appears all my effort, all my work, and all the good I accomplish in the world is of no worth at all. Did God only create me to be an object for his love? Am I simply an arbitrary creation whose purpose is none? Father Barron, I attest to you you do have intrinsic worth. Your actions have meaning, and the Good you accomplish resonates throughout the universe. God appreciates the work you put in to help his plan succeed. Love can only exist if we seek to create and nurture it. Thus, God creates AND USES us to make such environments possible.

[@BishopBarron]

Absolutely! God appreciates the good and uses it, but he doesn't need it; if he did, he wouldn't be God!

[@TheBlackCoug]

Fr. Robert Barron "God appreciates the good and uses it, but he doesn't need it." Do you not see the contradiction within this statement? Why would an omnipotent God use anything? Does his using us help make his plan better? If not, the "use" he gets from us still means nothing. Thus our actions still mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. Does God have to allow free agency? If he does, it seems laws exist outside of God, (which does not take away from his worth) and if he does not allow free agency, he would cease to be God. So, God does not have a choice, he MUST allow free agency.

[@danielt.9101]

***** What Fr. Barron is getting at IMO is that God himself cannot be affected either negatively or positively by the things we do or fail to do... however this does not mean the things you do in this life are meaningless simply because they are of no utilitarian benefit to God. They are of utilitarian benefit to the people who you do those things for, and God is able to appreciate your doing that because you would be sharing in his divine loving nature, and that is the reason he created you. At least, that's how I understand it...

[@TheBlackCoug]

Daniel Tibirisa "God himself cannot be affected either negatively positively by the things we do or fail to do." It seems we can affect God... like you said, when we do something good he appreciates it. Moreover, those good actions may benefit people like you said, but in the grand scheme of things, it still means nothing? Does God need love? What would be God's purpose if people did not exist? Did God create us on an arbitrary whim, or was it necessary that he created us and keeps creating? If God does not continue to create, and spread love, then he would no longer be God, in that not spreading love is bad. So, it seems we have found something that God has to do, and he needs us to do it. If you, Daniel, suddenly ceased to exist, would God be sad? If so, why? By your reasoning, his plan would go on just as well. Does your uniqueness in any way help God? Sir, I tell you it does. Your intrinsic worth matters, as do you actions.

[@danielt.9101]

***** Yes, you should act in a way that manifests love in this world, and yes, it does have ultimate significance, but the main point that Fr. Barron is making here is, that God does not require submission, subservience, blind worship, etc..."the glory of God is a human being fully alive". Essentially, God doesn't have any self-interest, and because of that he has no selfish desire, he is capable of being absolutely loving. Because he has no need of anything from anyone, he can give everything to everyone who will accept it. I think that is a very positive thing...

[@haudace]

thanks for bringing up omniscience again. we didn't finish our very fruitful conversation yesterday. quote:"it matter nothing (in terms of omniscience) which choice is taken...omniscience doesn't imply god knowing which decision will be taken" we're in a christian thread, possible rescue for you :D. omniscience ought to fill any gap in knowledge yet your phrasing suggests otherwise albeit not clearly. this is where we don't reach consensus and i've been begging you to explain that one to me.

[@rytsign69]

@lewisejackson The term i should have used is "command". Sorry I just posted the comment without making the correction. I just like to point out the contradiction in your post that GOD commands people to love him while at the same time its a "request". Second, The Love of GOD and the church is like a marriage. You are under vow to love only your husband which is GOD, for better or worse.

[@MrCamus1960]

Father Barron, why should I love God? The only reasons that I can come up with is He gave me everything, which seems like a selfish reason on my part to love Him. But I know that real love is the opposite of selfishness, can you help me with this dilemma?

[@dawellknown]

I think one need to address our past saint with their rightful titles. It's Bishop St. Irenaeus Bishop Barron.

[@warzoneG5]

@wordonfirevideo Could you make a video talking about your testimony and also a video about the experience of knowing Christ personally showing the viewers its not a delusion but a real relationship? thank you and all your videos are great

[@HopefulSaint]

What this passage fails to define is the definition of the word "believe." This is incredibly crucial. Seeing as how it is impossible, or atleast very very very difficult to discover, we are not in a position to make any assumption on the eternal destination of others. All we can do is have faith of our own destinations by accord of the Church's teachings

[@Jugglable]

5:26 "The glory of God is not a human being in submission." Well, maybe in submission to God. God wants us to be fully alive more than we want it ourselves, so by submitting to God we become fully alive.

[@MrCamus1960]

Father Barron, isn't it wrong for God to command me to love him, and obey his commandments in order to get a reward that is Heaven? I understand that the glory of God is a human being fully alive, but wouldn't it be wrong on my part to "love" God and do what he says for my own personal gain?

[@rytsign69]

@lewisejackson could you please cite the following passages in the bible that states that GOD demands our love.

[@sin128]

Thanks for the replies. So how would a non-Christian get to heaven? How can they repent for their sins?

[@fancullo]

Father Robert Barron, what does it mean to say man is fully alive? how can man be fully alive?

[@rytsign69]

@lewisejackson you said it yourself, its a request and not a demand.

[@sin128]

If this is true, why are all non-Christians condemned to hell?

[@TheFutureengineer20]

Does God truly know exactly what we are going to do before we do it? If so then how do we have free will? Unless I'm thinking of free will in the wrong sense. Polkinghorne said he thinks that God chooses to have limited knowledge of future events in order to give creation a certain degree a freedom. He limits himself for the sake of creation as Christ did for us on the cross. He admits that he is uncertain of this conclusion but it makes most sense to him. Do you agree w/ this?

[@thehollowknight2900]

We can still choose, but God knows what we will choose. That doesn’t diminish the gift, just shows that God will know what will happen.

[@rytsign69]

@lewisejackson I would assume that the Religion in this discussion would be "Catholic", I have no authority speaking for the other Religious Institutions. Secondly, you said that Stalin was coincidentally an Atheist, then what about Karl Marx and Vladimir Lennin, contributor to communism and are both atheist? Thirdly, you said Atheism is not an organized system of thought, then how do they deliberate what is morally wrong and right? Who gets to claim what are morally right and wrong for atheist?

[@JeffersonDinedAlone]

@MrCamus1960 When you begin to understand that selfishness is a virtue, not the corruption of original definition which Society has made it to be, then you won't have this particular dilemma.

[@bygonevexation114]

very beautiful :')

[@Komnenos1234]

@wordonfirevideo I know I'm replying to this long after the fact. I was just wondering how it is resolved, what St. Paul says that, "no one is desiring God, not one, etc." and Augustine saying "our hearts are restless until they rest in you". It seems like Augustine isn't the only one who discusses the individual as on a quest for God, Anselm does a similar thing in the Monologion, how can th heart searching for God be resolved with what St. Paul said in Romans?

[@aVo_001]

"you mean your scrutiny" well if you weren't so afraid to reveal them we would know wouldn't we? "...the ones with inquisitions?" Basic sentence structure would probably carry whatever point you were attepting to make a little easier. And that's approved divorce you are talking about. Specificly Henry the 8th.

[@swordofstmichael007]

Bishop Barron, didn't Saint Irenaeus started from this and then ultimately concluded that all men has to go to heaven? It may be incompatible with hell. I'd like to know how this theology connects with final judgement and hell.

[@deborahanne9793]

Bishop Barron: Can you please comment on this disturbing teaching from Saint Augustine in regard to women not being made in the image of God. Woman does not possess the image of God in herself but only when taken together with the male who is her head, so that the whole substance is one image. But when she is assigned the role as helpmate, a function that pertains to her alone, then she is not the image of God. But as far as the man is concerned, he is by himself alone the image of God just as fully and completely as when he and the woman are joined together into one. -Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354-430)

[@JeffersonDinedAlone]

@MrCamus1960 True. Which is precisely why the wording of the 1st Commandment should be re-worded. No one can command anyone to love them; the very concept is absurd. Love has no meaning, whatsoever, unless it is given freely.

[@dannycox3085]

In other words it’s all about you. What can God do for me?

[@tmyersable]

@wordonfirevideo You seem to be contradicting yourself in saying that God simultaneously unconditionally loves us and is not significantly effected by us or in need of us. For some reason, I can't imagine having and/or being the kind of love that God has/is, while at the same time being indifferent and lacking in need in regards to the things/beings that are the primary objects of my great love. Of course God would live on without us, but does that mean that He doesn't need us?

[@haudace]

the reality is that i am too afraid. i am afraid to engage in a fruitless battle. we probably won't even enjoy an intellectual discourse if we decided to keep talking to each other. our egos are just too high and mighty... not to forget to biased. i'll gladly debate you when you'll be able to convince me and me you. until then, tada! unless you are ready and willing... i know i am.

[@Daewonnni]

Can you elaborate then what it means to be "fully alive?"

[@bobpolo2964]

Fully in tune with the Holy Spirit

[@rytsign69]

@lewisejackson you said yourself its a request and not a demand.

[@ThomistC]

@wordonfirevideo Father, I'm Daniel~ St. Augustine said, "You have made us for yourself." Then, how should we interpret your or St. Irenaeus argument that God doesn't need us with st. Augustine's? Don't we always create something for our needs? God could've chosen not to create, but He did. So, I thought that He needed to create us to be called a God and from that moment the creator begins to exist with the creatures. I'm a Catholic, so help me to understand both saints' words. Thanks!!!

[@rytsign69]

@lewisejackson ....but sinners, rejecting the truth which is God, leads to all kinds of error, injustice, compromises which ultimately leads to death, suffering, injury, albeit like Hell.

[@Komnenos1234]

If you really want to debate God's existence with me, fine then let's have a candid, cordial discussion. In fact why don't you tell me ahead of time what would count as "evidence" for not just God, but any supposed person, thing, or entity, and save us both some time. I'll try and find something that counts on your list.

[@haudace]

so you do acknowledge that humans have within themselves a moral compass to judge what's right or wrong. on that point, i agree with you. i'm confused with your other claim. how did god embed us with a conscience to judge evil from good? why are the dark ages characterized with extremely rare periods of social enlightenment considering religion dominated every facet of life? why is the bible so violent towards certain outsiders?

[@rytsign69]

@lewisejackson Yes, Catholicism has done some crappy job protecting human rights during the crusades, and the inquisition. But like a living organism, it learned from its mistakes and provided measures to ensure it never happened again. The Crusades was replaced by ecumenism and dialogue between Muslims and of other faiths, Though I haven't yet know what replaced the inquisition, I'll try to look it up. Also this will be my last comment, I forgot this is a comment, not a forum, Sorry Father.

[@rytsign69]

@lewisejackson rightfully said.

[@mannyfit75]

like wordonfirevideo states, "They're not."

[@rytsign69]

@lewisejackson Take for example, a man who kills innocent people, even though he knows that killing them is a crime, the state ordered him to stop, but he would not. what do you think is the natural consequence of his action? He goes to prison, to stop his wanton destruction to society. The man suffer because his desire to kill is not satisfied, and because he refuses to stop, he stays there indefinitely.

[@BishopBarron]

They're not!

[@haudace]

"Probably because they don't stand up to scrutiny." you mean your scrutiny. "Sounds like someone needs a history lesson." oh, you're talking about those monarchs who couldn't even marry without some pope's consent. the ones with inquisitions?

[@manutdfan4321]

hmm good point

[@BishopBarron]

Friend, you're really straining now! Does it not strike you as at least interesting that this uneducated rabbi who, as you put it, spoke to a handful of people in the Palestinian desert, has been proclaimed and believed in all over the world as the most decisive figure in human history? You say that he is not believed in. Well, in excess of two billion people around the globe proclaim him as the Son of God. I'd say that's a pretty good record.

[@lesparks126]

Does God need to Love? I am not being rhetorical.

[@ABB14-11]

He IS Love, that's His nature.

[@lesparks126]

@@ABB14-11 I wholly agree, I am just curious from a perspective if that you are one thing, do you need it? I would argue that yes, like seeks like and to do like. Language may fail my feeble mind using the word need. maybe compelled would be better. And of course the word that separates us from the animal is why? As a father, I am compelled to love my daughter. In purity as she is the extension of my wife's and my love, but more.

[@Lerian_V]

@@lesparks126 God would need love if he's a solitude. But since he is a family (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) he has all the love he needs in his being or essence.

[@lesparks126]

@@Lerian_V Then why does he love us? Why did he create us? I am being sincerely curious. I think that God's love is so great that he created us to share the perfection. If love is to will the good of the other, God wanted more others to will the good for. Even if it causes pain when they reject His love. I am open to dialog.

[@Lerian_V]

@@lesparks126 He loves us because that's how love works. Love reaches out towards that which it loves. As the Catechism says, God created all things not to increase his glory, but to show it forth and to communicate it. God has no other reason for creating than his love and goodness.

[@Komnenos1234]

You don't understand what I'm asking because you probably don't know who St. Augustine, St. Paul. and St. Anselm are. And that's fine. But whether or not God exists is irrelevant to my question, I'm asking a question about theoretical doctrinal coherence.

[@rytsign69]

@lewisejackson Well, considering the insults given, I say this friendly discussion has turned bad. Sorry if I offended you, I just want to learn a little about atheism. Well, I have learned some bit about Atheism, thank you and have a nice day.

[@samueldooley5952]

Doesn't God demand we believe in him?

[@bobpolo2964]

More like command we acknowledge Him

[@triconcert]

Has Fr done a review of the Matrix?

[@BishopBarron]

Yes!

[@triconcert]

Saw it. Splendid as usual. I'm a close friend from Trinidad of Fr Tom Rosica. Thanks for your edifying posts!

[@Jugglable]

So god just wants us to be fully alive. So why are some things that the church prescribes as "sinful" things that don't seem to make us less alive? Prayer makes me feel alive, and love makes me feel alive, but so does sex! And if the idea isn't that god is "offended" at our sins, why all the language of God's judgment?

[@helpmaboabb]

Hmm... seems God's love is finite, with only a capped number of humans to "share" it with.

[@Komnenos1234]

Dude, you're not getting it. I didn't "recognize that my God appears to be fictional". The logical coherency of conditional statements that take the form, "if A, and if B, then C" can be scrutinized for their logical coherence even if A and B are purely theoretical things. And the way that you shove your show in this debate frankly reminds me of the time I was accosted by an evangelical Jehovah's Witness.

[@rytsign69]

@lewisejackson Since Atheism is not an organized system, there is no criterion of what is considered a "good atheist". Unlike Religion if you permit me, who makes a standard of what a "Good Person" is, by offering these moral codes which guides a person on how to be a "Good Person". But each Criterion is different from each Religion, problem arises with conflicted views hence, zealotry, persecution, oppression for people of different background.

[@billbrock8547]

The Christian God doesn't need us? He certainly seems to need our worship. In Exodus 20:1-7 he insists upon worship and fidelity, calls himself a jealous God, and promises to punish the unfaithful and their descendants. Does God ask for our love? No, he demands it, just like the pagan gods.

[@Komnenos1234]

You said that there was no evidence for certain Christian historical claims, and I asked you what YOU would consider evidence. What could be MORE relevant to this kind of discussion!? You use the expression "malodorous clouds of effluvium" and you accuse me of filling the conversation with jargon? My question would have been easy to answer with a single sentence but by all means walk away.

[@aVo_001]

Ok good start. Now use normal human reason to understand that those 3 things are not just wrong simply becuase society or the culture says so. Recognize that these evils are in and of themselves diobolical because our benevolent creator has imbedded in our concience the sence to determine what is ultimately right and wrong.

[@rytsign69]

@lewisejackson you're obviously lacking in Catholic teachings about the faith. See that Jesus describes himself as a bridegroom (Luke 6:34-35) and that John the Baptizer consider himself the best man (John 3:27-30), is that not a hint about wedding? Also please watch Father Barrons "Comment about Hell" to see what Hell is truly is in the Catholic teaching. Its not so much a punishment, rather a necessary consequence of rejecting Gods Love. God does not want to punish sinner......

[@Jugglable]

lol! 4:48 "That's not the game. That's a pagan game."

[@MartinDezion]

Then God must be very frustrated. You share that: "God delights in our sharing in" (or replicating) "His goodness" (or state of perfection). However, In our world; parents can delight in their children eventually replicating their excellency; but your god is limited because He will never enjoy the amazing glory and joy of replicating himself, he is basically a hermit that created in mankind to be capable of having a greater level of sociability than what he is capable of participating in . We are therefore more capable of happiness that your god is. Unless you believe in the Restored Gospel, then you would know that as the Bible states "ye are gods". and the true God is our literal Father whereby we can become joint heirs of exaltation.

[@aVo_001]

"i have some ideas where morality came from but you won't believe me. " Probably because they don't stand up to scrutiny. "only the catholic church of rome with some pope. " Sounds like someone needs a history lesson.

[@aVo_001]

They're not.

[@Komnenos1234]

Stop pretending to be an intellectual giant and READ what I'm asking you. I'll make this easy. When you say that "there is no evidence", what are you saying? What KIND of evidence are you saying there isn't? For example, whether what I want to know happened two days ago or two millenia ago, things I consider "evidence" are eyewitnesses, written accounts, and physical remains. So before we go on, do you agree with that criterion or not.