Bishop Barron Presents | Larry Chapp - Traditionalism, Liberalism, and Vatican II

Friends, it is my pleasure to share the latest “Bishop Barron Presents” discussion, featuring theologian and educator Dr. Larry Chapp. In our conversation, we discuss topics such as:
The Catholic Worker Movement
Traditionalism and liberalism in the Catholic Church
The Second Vatican Council
And numerous other topics
Stay tuned for future “Bishop Barron Presents” conversations. These intellectually invigorating discussions feature varying religious and political perspectives to encourage greater understanding and civility.
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[@catsaberhagen5266]

So wise to say porn is public health issue. As a nurse we try desperately to rescue its victims! Thank you for speaking up!

[@RH-ti2dp]

Porn is a mortal sin. A sin that begets more sin.

[@dianemitchell9374]

I think these conversations, and your word on fire ministry, have brought a lot of hope to people.

[@mommyseastar5776]

I’m really glad to listen to this. I do a lot of pro-life work and so many people have no idea about Jesus and his Church but they respond when I allow his kindness to speak to them through my words. This gives me hope that the goodness in people will respond to Jesus when he reaches out to them.

[@got2bgt]

The beauty of this conversation is: exactly that! - an actual conversation! Keep up the great work!

[@jupiter2591]

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[@jupiter2591]

Bpupbpupppphppp7piIIiiIIÎIIiouooooono impious as you obo out oboiubBOUPObkjklo Uf duff ccc Y l 7”6 777nah Nah lol L L Nah Nah I L II I L I’m Ok I O Z.” Zzzzzzxz Z z …x Z . 8 . . X du. O O O O O O O O O o O O O Moo I Ooo O O I “((((.(.(…((.((.((…(. Z 7. Z . . O O K O O O Ok Y O Yo O O K O o Ok o O I I ..f(( 7 7 F @ O O Ok Oi O I O I Oo Oh O O Oi Nah O K O O O Oo L O O Ooo O. O U a U 7 Yo I I O O L L O O Oo O I O I 6 Loo Kim 787 I L L Zgu7 I 77766866668989 Y Y U Y Y Y YNahy You You Y Yo

[@Lankester_Merrin]

Hello Dr Chapp!! I was one of Dr Chapp's students back in the Allentown College days . Awesome professor !! 👏

[@satcheukarlsedricktapamo5023]

Simply magnificent… so much to take from this conversation between 2 brilliant minds, passionate about universal faith!

[@conornagle9528]

As a catechumen about to make Confirmation and Holy Communion in the next few weeks, this type of depth, intrigue, fascination, and passion of dialogue keeps drawing a deeper and deeper love for Catholicism out. In Ireland the Church is going through such a challenging time for a multitude of reasons, some just and some seemingly shortsighted, but as a newer citizen to this beautiful country, I am incredibly thankful to come to the Holy Catholic Church at the mid-stage of my life. Glory to God.

[@jjcm3135]

Good.

[@kathleenarffmann2623]

This interview answered a lot of my questions. However,I was fortunate to have attended Catholic college in the 60's. Please speak to my children and the younger generation. There's so much you need to know before you listen and understand this great conversation.

[@jacobgray7007]

Hello fellow Catholics .. has anyone had any apparition from our blessed mother. pls share with me

[@4sanche]

Great conversation! Very informative, encouraging each of us to live the Word on Fire. That is the Beauty, Goodness, and Truth of the Lord Jesus Christ in our everyday lives.

[@jacobgray7007]

Hello fellow Catholics .. has anyone had any apparition from our blessed mother. pls share with me

[@Meraikie]

We thank you both for this very necessary discussion.... Blessings to you both🕯🕯🕯

[@marianweigh6411]

What people who stand on the sidelines and criticize don't realize is this: You will _never_ successfully evangelize someone unless you _gain their _*_trust!_* That is a long hard work-and plus, all you're really doing is tilling the soil so that *_God_*_ can plant the seed._

[@anneturner2759]

I love Bishop Barron.

[@JohannesAvDamaskus777]

You know when you take a hammer, and you hit the nail effortlessy, with such a momentum and precission that it goes in whith almost one maybe two strokes. Thats what just happened. Over 1hour of satisfying and very much needed points and topics. Inspiring. This inspired! Thank you!

[@teresaaarthinazareth6704]

God bless your ministry Bishop Barron which led me to dig deeper in my catholic faith ,as a family we have discovered the traditional Latin mass more than a year ago and can say our generation had been robbed the very precious gift of the church .... God bless you

[@jacobgray7007]

Hello fellow Catholics .. has anyone had any apparition from our blessed mother. pls share with me

[@pop6997]

Thank you for this fabulous talk guys. Yes, you're spot on when you say people recognise 'authenticity' - thanks for being authentic! I love Bishop Barron and am so grateful for his dialogues...and the mission to not 'dumb down' the faith or indeed restrict it to some cold and drafty version of radical traditionalism. The emphasis on the faith being Christ centric and starting there letting it make you radically Jesus in the world is 'authentic' to my ears. That, like the Saints it's a 'lived' thing in every moment, not just Sundays :) I also love the introduction that the Bishop gave me over the years and interest in reading people like St. Thomas, St.Augustine et al right up to Saint J.H. Newman, Chesterton & Lewis, Doris Day etc. Sooo many! Thanks for trusting that the faithful can 'handle' reading, conversing and understanding...

[@nathanngumi8467]

Word. The Church will endure.

[@jjcm3135]

Chapp is excellent writer. Very sharp intellect.

[@danyoungmusic2023]

Helpful discussion. What I think would be even more helpful is a direct dialogue with traditionalists. Why not a long-form discussion/debate between Bishop Barron or Prof Chapp and an informed traditionalist intellectual? There seems to be too little of that sort of thing. The likes of Bishop Barron have much to offer traditionalist-minded Catholics. By the same token, Bishop Barron at times seems to be dismissive or offer only caricatured portrayals of traditionalists and their views. Outside of certain sedevacanist and Vatican II-denying pockets, traditionalists are a rather joyful, faithful and committed lot. Very little indifference or spiritual boredom there. Are seminarians on fire with tradition really something to be feared, or that rather a ray of hope? I would encourage the good Bishop to engage more deeply and openly with these traditionalist brothers and sisters, which may be a great opportunity for renewal within the Church.

[@drkissinger1]

I consider myself a mild traditionalist, and I have to say that the face of Catholic traditionalism on social media is precisely as the Bishop describes.

[@RJ-bq5mr]

Peter Kwasniewski comes to mind

[@RJ-bq5mr]

@@drkissinger1 that's every faction on social media, of course the traditionalists have their toxic ones too

[@dianawilde417]

Well said.

[@RobbinESeal]

I don’t know if you know this but I have a friend who 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@lardiop]

Larry Chapp is the man, really looking forward to this one!

[@lardiop]

What a great chat. Get this guy a WOF Fellowship!

[@timthurston9]

A beautiful dialogue between two great minds. It is interesting how decreases in the faithful somehow give us hope for the future. That hope brings excitement to each day as we wait for the "explosion". Thanks for showing us the way.

[@catholicrakelle]

I honestly don’t care which flavor of Catholicism people plant their flag in as long as they’re not denying or trying to change Church teachings. I’ve personally found Traditional Catholicism to be appealing because it gives me a firm foundation to build a life on and it worked for the saints. I wish the two sides could come together, focusing on both mercy and justice, but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

[@crisr3055]

🙏🏻. Thank you Bishop Barron, may God Bless you. And I truly pray that be I May be able to go to the Good News Conference. Amen

[@reginaclaire4680]

two reasonable Catholics who arent mesmerized by the Left Church or the Right Church. Men fighting for cradle Catholicism and against Progressivism and Radical Traditionalism.. Both/And and win-win-win. ❤❤

[@dynamic9016]

Thanks much for this video.

[@rosalindaworsham9322]

Something to look forward to that's beneficial for our souls.

[@natashaduquette517]

It's true that "there is an element of violence" (Dr. Larry Chapp) in the "tradicalism" (Dr. Philippa Martyr). I have witnessed it, and it is frankly quite frightening and irrational. I love Hans urs von Balthasar's work on aesthetics and was baffled to see it questioned from a traditionalist viewpoint. This fulsome and capacious Word on Fire conversation helped me understanding the context. Thank you.

[@wheels7896]

Sawing off the branch they are sitting on - EXACTLY! Thank you!

[@jackiesterios1859]

Love this format. Just the 2 in conversation…also can interrupt one another or even argue back. Some passion is now possible. High stalls can go too. BB does not need a lead question from moderator.

[@jacobgray7007]

Hello fellow Catholics .. has anyone had any apparition from our blessed mother. pls share with me

[@aloysiusmaina2625]

Insightful on so many points.

[@jean-guydallaire6527]

I wish I had a theology degree of some kind... it might have helped to better understand this conversation between the two great minds at crossroads but I will remember... as Bishop Barron said "Christ is the fullness of salvation" and what Mr. Chapp said... "All politics is ultimately theological". So, I say... Go, follow your God giving talents and bring the good news. I share my art and photography.

[@Eserr7856]

Bishop Barron's hero is Thomas Aquinas and his most famous work Summa Theologia has been synthesized in an easy to understand book by Dr Peter Kraft called Summa of the Summa. I think that would be a great starting place for you to get into the Catholic intellectual tradition

[@kristincalvarese]

Thx faith 💓.

[@alanflood8162]

Enriching discussion

[@momsplainer3052]

I love this interview! Dear Bishop, please get Dr Chad Pecknold on to learn about “integralism” which is not quite a confessional state. There is only ONE integralism which is necessarily Catholic because it is about ordering the political order to Truth. Dr Chap is right that there are no neutral states, they just can’t all rightly be called “integralist.”

[@bc5612]

I didn't understand this till late in life, men and women are created to come together under the sacrament of Holy Matrimony to participate in the creative Glory of God and to bring His children into this world. As a parent, I wish I could control the content my children see on the net and tv. I guess I could go off the grid, but that seems overwhelming in its own right (I would miss discussions such as these). Loved this conversation.

[@RH-ti2dp]

Your kids are toast if they are watching TV, etc. God help all out children!

[@NightLetterLondon]

this is SO much better, this one on one conversation format, without the unnecessary moderation (of Jared).. which was just intrusive and held up the whole thing, made it unnecessarily formal.. here now we have two minds free to 'let go'.. well done on making this really essential change. one thing though.. i don't see the point of regularly pulling back to show the cameramen.. we get its being filmed, c'mon..

[@janakroyal2209]

Amen

[@Joss1245]

I think the question of hell gets right to the heart of the issue here. I agree people live in little "hells" in this life, such as addiction or abuse. Evangelism is partly about saving them from that. We cannot, however, deny that eternal Hell, after you die, is a reality. The majority of people have gone there, through the wide way to perdition. St. Thomas agrees.

[@christophersnedeker2065]

The little hells are more existential.

[@alfonsvancraeynest2461]

The most important thing we are all called to be is Holy and therefore love and do the Will of God. Humanism is not Christianity.

[@janakroyal2209]

Amen papa ⛪⛪⛪⛪⛪⛪⛪

[@rickmiller2042]

Took a long time listening through this as I have complex thoughts on the discussions. The discussion on the traditionalists lacked a lot of charity, the agreement they had on the issue of hell displayed a lot of balthasarian origenism is offputting which color's my opinion on much of the 2nd half of their discussion. Otherwise I probably would have found that part of the discussion much more attractive.

[@Apamaru]

"NARROW is the gate and STRAIT is the way that leadeth into life, and FEW there be that find it." - The Master

[@BishopBarron]

When the Son of Man is lifted up, he will draw all people to himself.

[@Apamaru]

@@BishopBarron The offer has truly been made and the desire to draw everyone to Himself is obviously there on His part. But look around yourself: few indeed are responding, few are willing to take the offer.

[@BishopBarron]

@@Apamaru Christianity is not a desperate Pelagian scenario. Our hope rests, not in our achievement, but in his mercy.

[@Apamaru]

@@BishopBarron But Christianity is not Calvinism. We also must actively participate in accepting the offer and begin to follow Christ. We are not objects that God saves unilaterally or disregarding our will.

[@BishopBarron]

@@Apamaru Of course, but thank God that his grace is more powerful than my sin.

[@nancyjanzen5676]

,it is hard to charge the enemy in the field if I feel confused by my leadership in the Church.

[@jacobgray7007]

Hello fellow Catholics .. has anyone had any apparition from our blessed mother. pls share with me

[@paulheuton8797]

A question. As Catholic Christians (and I believe Bishop Barron has used this phrase himself) we truly believe that you will “know them by their fruits.” The bishop talks about the bad implementation and mass liturgical abuse post Vatican II. What the bishop does seems like trying to have it both ways and using a rhetorical device acknowledging the other side’s concerns in order to be nice and congenial and draw them in but not actually addressing them in a substantive manner. How can the second Vatican council be wonderful and totally legitimate within the liturgical sphere when the bishop himself states that the “implementation” was often done so poorly. Is this implementation and the resultant liturgical abuse not the very fruit of the council?

[@BishopBarron]

Not at all! You're succumbing to the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. When you look at the texts themselves, you find tremendous riches. Don't blame the council texts for the lousy way that Vatican II was implemented.

[@paulheuton8797]

Thank you for the response. I don’t personally have a problem with Vatican II (though I love the Latin mass) and know it was full of great thoughts for the Church. I will consider your response very thoughtfully.

[@ryanscottlogan8459]

Christ said nobody comes to the Father but through me.Period.

[@dariofromthefuture3075]

Coming from a non-Catholic perspective, but someone who respects much of the Catholic message.: It is painfully obvious what the shortcomings of the church have been in exciting the modern world. You guys need to integrate with the eastern religions. Who, I will say quite frankly, have a much deeper philosophy of Being-ness than the Catholics do. (Ie meditation and the transcendent ability too connect with God from within your internal channel. .) At The same time., The Catholics have a lot to offer the Eastern World about charity and responsibility. The future is so clear - we need to link the Eastern Cannons with the Western Cannons. And as someone who has done this myself - it’s remarkable how much cross over there is - but the starting points are radically different. To the degree the Church open their brains to new interface opportunities - they will be more compelling.

[@MaryvalePress]

I'm not sure you understand the Trads. Recently the Mass of the Ages had a good episode where they talked about Vatican II. They say, Sacrosanctum Concilium is 100% good and voted on my 2000 bishops at an ecumenical council. They do question the sub-committee that created the Paul VI Mass, although they don't doubt it's valid. Where the trads agree is that the application of the Paul VI Mass was an utter failure. If one has to follow the Paul VI Mass, they should do it through the lens of Sacrosanctum Concilium and the Tridentine Mass and not the music minister and experimentation of the pastor.

[@SeveredLegs]

It's not extreme to think the council was a big mistake. Look at the church now, with 70% of people not actually believing any of this stuff is real. A third council is the only way to potentially compromise and move forward together. This Pope doesn't have the temperament for it though, in my personal opinion.

[@kevinluke2195]

Would dearly love greater examples come explanation around juxtaposition of historical theological points of view🙃🇳🇿

[@tadstilwell6127]

I appreciate the discussion. However, I believe that this discussion would make most laymen’s eyes roll. I think a very great number of young people attending the Latin Rite, or the Ordinariate or Eastern Rites, feel a connection in the Mass that is seldom found in Novus Ordo liturgies as they are conducted in the US. The usual Novus Ordo is sadly lacking in a rich, emotional tug at the soul. Yes, there are “rad trades”. But the average person in the Latin Rite pew is a Vatican II Catholic who finds the Latin Rite deeply satisfying as worship.

[@karma0is0a0bitch]

Why do you presume to know what people are feeling emotionally at mass? You have absolutely no idea.

[@catholicdisciple3232]

From Lumen Gentium 16: "But **often** men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and *procure the salvation of all of these*, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature", the Church fosters the missions with care and attention." This seems to suggest that not all will be saved, as *often* people will exchange the truth of God for a lie. It also seems to suggest that procuring the salvation of souls is a reason for evangelization. Thoughts?

[@blakemoon123]

Great conversation. Thankyou

[@lorettagallagher9577]

"Nourished by my parish community. " I love that, and experience that at my parish . I'm grateful to God for that. God bless.

[@franciscojuan4551]

Same here

[@jacobgray7007]

Hello fellow Catholics .. has anyone had any apparition from our blessed mother. pls share with me

[@andrewsinfotainment2063]

God may bless you guys Andrew from Pakistan

[@STRENGTHFROMABOVE]

“Rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.” 1 Thessalonians 5:18

[@deniseb2014]

I thoroughly enjoyed this intellectual conversation on so many topics. Thank you.

[@jacobgray7007]

Hello fellow Catholics .. has anyone had any apparition from our blessed mother. pls share with me

[@pozamatrixem7540]

Balthasar and Saint Maria Faustyna Kowalska...? Choose the Image of God's Mercy... "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus"?And maybe you are too close to saying: living with and without the Sacraments - what's the difference? And then you are close to rubberizing the meaning of the Savior's Cross and the necessity of religious missions. Even if you don't think about it. I am not a traditionalist but they are right: The beauty and silence of the Liturgy of the Holy Mass - the colors of the Mystery - have been destroyed. And the most important thing is that the Second Vatican Council itself did not want to plan such a destruction.The minimal attempt to repair this destruction could be a universal papal order to put the Cross in the center of the Sacrificial Table during the Holy Mass; as it is during papal celebrations. The Catholic Church needs...more Silence. All above Silence of the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and prayers of the heart - like the Eastern Jesus Prayer. Silence and Beauty are the paths of saving faith and the Church in the world. Generally: We no longer have time only for "dialogues" and words, words, words. Cardinal Sarah feels well the truth about the need of modern times ... Arthur from Poland (the country of JPII, Saint Faustina Kowalska and blessed Father Popieluszko, Martyr for the faith and ideals of the "Solidarity" Movement). I mention him more broadly because the world today also desperately needs real Solidarity. Based on the ideals of the Gospel, not on leftist ideology and propaganda. The life and work of Father Popieuszko are today still a dynamite for all ideological regimes, more or less modern. He should long ago be canonized ... as an example to the whole world.

[@marginalmartin]

No disrespect to Jared and all the great work he does, but this format - just two speakers in conversation - works much better than those with a chair/moderator - and I'm sure getting away from those uncomfortable and awkward-looking high stools helped too!

[@juanchamorro9924]

I am not sure if I can agree with that. I think the three-person format enables Bishop Barron to free himself from the moderating role.

[@Jack-fw4mw]

Depends on the other party. For some guests, having a moderator steer the discussion is very useful. For a guest where they largely agree on points, yeah it is pretty calm.

[@sirwilliamraleigh2100]

Bishop - I liked that you fleshed out here some of your previous statements that you took a lot of heat for. I wish you would have a chat like this with Taylor Marshall... I know he is a critic and not your favorite but it drives me batty lol when distinguished, scholarly folks like you and him who seemingly are at strong philosophical odds won't get together and cordially discuss the critical issues facing the Church. I think you both have a role to play as clergy and lay. I am a fan and follower of you both. I am interested in the common ground you could find and it might lessen the confusion the faithful like me experience quite often these days. The devil delights in the discord! Thanks for all you do.

[@catholicrakelle]

That would be great. As a new Catholic, trying to figure out where to plant your flag is frustrating and discouraging sometimes.

[@CathDad4]

The problem with that is you risk giving Taylor Marshall any credibility, Which he deserves practically none.

[@jmhurl4350]

My gracious. I’m a bit shell shocked by two things. One, how utterly lost I am in the give and take between you two. Clearly amazingly intellectual and scholarly students and teachers of theology. Secondly, and maybe more importantly to me, is how devoid the conversation seems to be of emotional connection to the real function of religion. I feel a disconnect between intellectualism and emotional gravitas to Jesus. Why He came, what he died for and how it is our salvation. Maybe just a forlorn, retired lawyer seeking deeper meaning from religion which I often sense from the Bishop but it almost feels like the conversation devolved into who can name drop references to various scholars they’ve read and agree or disagree with. Probably just my ignorance of the significant theological teachings referenced but I feel the need to remind you both that the end game is saving souls. Not just impressing the audience on name dropping references to historical analysis you may agree or disagree with. Sorry for the candor but was moved to comment in this way…

[@marypinakat8594]

Will you agree that the two people had some specific topic within the stipulated time. That is how discussions are conducted. If somebody has to talk everything under the sun a single video might be the thing, of unending length. Is that what is your expectation?

[@BishopBarron]

Just completely unfair…Friend, this is a particular type of discourse, intended for an academic audience. Take a look at hundreds of other videos I’ve done to find the emotional uplift you’re seeking.

[@aenciaannunciencia5575]

@@marypinakat8594 its very clear saving in the name to salve in every way as possible during these trying times

[@jmhurl4350]

@@BishopBarron I’ve had an opportunity to reflect on my comments Father and have to offer a mea culpa. I do so after watching your first episode of The Creed (which I can’t recommend highly enough to your readers). While this particular discussion indeed fell flat on me (and in particular to the seemingly endless references to historical philosophical and religious figures of years gone by), it clearly has a very specific and different audience in mind. That is, I presume if I had a deeper knowledge of the specific subject matter (ie intended audience) I would have followed more closely and found meaning in the various references made by the two of you. Clearly that audience enjoyed this discussion (witness the other comments) as much as I do most all of the other lectures and talks I’ve seen or heard given by you. Not that you’d be losing sleep 😉 but wanted to let you know I agree with your “unfair” response and offer my mea culpa.

[@JosephZaidan-tf2vu]

based bishop robert baron

[@luluq01]

Bishop Barron, I always look forward to your videos. I am always challenged, enlightened, and even surprised. These videos fill my entire being on so many levels and my soul rejoices. My hat is off to Larry Chapp who I did not know but now I will. Love this format. Casual, comfortable, easy, and enjoyable.

[@Southernromanist]

I realize the pro in having a moderator such as Jared, so that the BB can just focus on answering rather than managing the conversation, but this one on one format is much more enjoyable. Authentic

[@markbrunini9297]

That’s a good point. I hear what you mean. Jared was missed. Good one.

[@tonywallens217]

True

[@quasicroissant]

I don't mean to malign Jared in any way, but at the same time I agree completely

[@Southernromanist]

This is the best BB Presents yet. Chapp is the man. Bring him back soon

[@channnel14]

My old professor. Learned so much

[@TruthSeeker-333]

As a defender of Bishop Barron and supporter of traditional catholic teaching as well as the traditional catholic youtubers, it’s bugs me to watch them attack each other. Modernism is the biggest threat to the church not traditional teaching. Bishop Barron and the traditionalists are all on the right side of defending the church against the modernist take over. The rise of trads are the response to the evils of modernism trying to dismantle the faith from within. I do wish Bishop Barron would talk about the errors of Fr Martin the Pope and all the bad bishops and priests who are tearing the church apart. The trads are not the problem, they are the solution. Some need a little patience and humility, but they are not willing to bend the faith to their will - unlike the modernists

[@aenciaannunciencia5575]

two great minds alike

[@mchurch72]

Imagine thinking that traditional Catholics are what's wrong with the world in 2021. Imagine existing in the same world as Fr. James Martin and spending all your time obsessing over those that want to attend a reverent TLM. If only Bishop Barron would actually make a serious video on this subject that actually addresses the thoughts of actual traditionalists.

[@BishopBarron]

What I find interesting is that my critics on the rad-trad side seem completely to overlook my sharp criticisms of Catholic progressivism, which I have been making for the past thirty years. Both Dr. Chapp and I are eminently clear that we are just as impatient with a Catholic liberalism that would sell out the substance of the faith as we are with a Catholic uber-traditionalism that would undermine the papacy and the authority of Vatican II.

[@mchurch72]

How do I know this conversation is unserious? They conflate being a traditional Catholic with being a sedevacantist.

[@BishopBarron]

@@mchurch72 No we don't. I have no problem with embracing the Catholic tradition. I consider myself a strong traditionalist. What both Dr. Chapp and I have a problem with is the questioning of the legitimacy of Vatican II and personal attacks on the current Vicar of Christ.

[@mchurch72]

@@BishopBarron The only thing traditional Catholics see is the constant bashing from some elements of the Church that seem to openly despise them and their attempts at pursuing what they believe to be is the most authentic form of the faith.....meanwhile, literal heretics abound, espousing hateful, pro-death culture and anti-Catholic positions in the Church and out in the secular world. See the problem? Can we have a moratorium on trad-bashing for a bit? After all, trad Catholics are a minority here in the west....and we are all immersed in the ascendant death culture - and it only gets worse from here.

[@jesseholthaus8357]

We are no longer fighting against the craziness of the post V2 Church. Yes there’s still elements that need to be dealt with but the right has become so radical that the front lines of the fight have shifted in that direction. In all humility, I’d encourage you to pray and ask the Lord to help you to understand the direction the Holy Spirit has been trying to move the Church over the last 60 years.

[@maryblacklock9518]

Thank you for all you do. God bless you.

[@dreseat123321]

More Larry Chapp. Less Taylor Marshall. Would love to see them sit down and duke it out so these Tradicals could see how out of league Marshall really is.

[@dreseat123321]

@Brian Ortiz Don't feed into the polarization?! Have you watched a single Taylor Marshall video? The guy routinely implies Pope Francis is a heretic schismatic nut job. The fact of the matter is Larry and TM's views are in opposition and it would be a treat to see them discuss the various points of disagreement.

[@rosalindaworsham9322]

I love this conversation. Deep, but understandable enough to listen and be informed by these two great minds of the Catholic church. Bishop Barron and Dr. Chapp, you both are brilliant , poise and so eloquent of discussing ongoing issues the church and the world face today. Thank you !

[@jacobgray7007]

Hello fellow Catholics .. has anyone had any apparition from our blessed mother. pls share with me

[@edwardbaker1331]

Would that include their cowardly refusal to cease bearing false witness against what Traditionalists are saying? Bishop Barron is flat out lying. The issues are about truth and the denial of orignal sin and the imperfectability of the human condition implicit in the cultic promotion of inevitable secular utopian progress clearly promoted in the documents of VII and current Church leadership.

[@garyspencersalt9449]

Thanks for the truth but I have to believe or hope for Jesus that was at the well as I and many others will have a problem.

[@benhutchinson9808]

This is a brilliant discussion. Two smart guys chatting about some of the most important issues the world faces (and ever will face).

[@janicecrowe9792]

Bishop Robert Barron

[@joanfoote5303]

Fr. Morgenroth was at pot church

[@joanfoote5303]

Continuing. Our church in Lincoln NE years ago! I loved his homilies was on the edge of my seat! But so many didn’t get what he was preaching. It was sad but I loved him. Good to hear his name again!

[@edwardbaker1331]

Would that include their cowardly refusal to cease bearing false witness against what Traditionalists are saying? Bishop Barron is flat out lying. The issues are about truth and the denial of orignal sin and the imperfectability of the human condition implicit in the cultic promotion of inevitable secular utopian progress clearly promoted in the documents of VII and current Church leadership.

[@jamesunderwood8423]

I liked the video. Many interesting points made. I wish you would have a dialog with the people you speak negatively about. Remember the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. The reason perhaps some traditional catholics are difficult with you is that the love Many things you say and certainly love your office. Have an open convo with one of them if you are to keep criticizing them. I'm sure they all would be very glad to have a conversation.

[@altalingua]

I agree with you. Would be great to see an open conversation / debate between let's say "mainstream" Catholicism and more "traditional" Catholicism. I'm certainly no expert, but I thought there was a lot of strawmanning of the traditional position. For example, I think at one point Bishop Barron says that trads believe "the pope is not the pope" ... that would be a fringe position among the trads, sedevancatism, whereas most trads I think would simply say that the pope has made errors. Also the idea that it might be possible that all are saved... what are we to make of the words of Jesus, then? The parable of the rich man in hell? When Jesus says better that Judas not have been born, etc? I understand that this is sensitive but yes, a debate between the two sides would be very interesting!

[@jamesunderwood8423]

​@po18guy exposure is always the method by which we root out evil/extremism in the church. Whether it be heresies (e.g. albigensianism, arianism) or sexual abuses. And for what its worth, the people that he is mentioning get plenty of exposure anyway so it's not like he's mitigating against anything if he doesn't talk to them.

[@mmccrownus2406]

@@jamesunderwood8423 he might actually learn some points he is wrong upon

[@elizasims315]

I agree, based on my experience, a lot of Bishop Barron’s criticism of ‘trads’ is based on some internet fringe rather than actual traditional Catholics. I wonder if Bishop Barron actually knows many traditional Catholics or has been to a traditional parish before because it seems to me his critiques are not entirely based on the reality on the ground.

[@drkissinger1]

He is specifically criticizing the calumnious, extremely online rad trads you mentioned. I go to a TLM and don’t see any of this on the ground either, but I’m glad to see Bishop Barron taking the online excesses to task.

[@christinamoynihan4021]

Would it be possible to list these authors and their works so I can learn more, too,?

[@kathleen9859]

My sentiments, exactly!

[@sarasofiacastro6750]

Me too!!!

[@ntsakomathebula4840]

I love how Dr. Chapp is wearing either Dr Martens or NPS Solovairs. He's a fly guy.

[@thedjc100]

I am always both uplifted and learn a great deal whenever I get to hear Bp Barron. Add in Dr Chapp and it’s like the start of weekend with a blizzard coming in and your favorite beer and pizza for supper. Pure bliss.

[@normaodenthal8009]

Thought provoking discussion. It’s interesting to note that the human tendency is to see faults in others that we are blind to in ourselves, and that we usually assume that we are members of the special club going to heaven, while it is the others who destined to hell. It then becomes easy and enticing to focus on doctrines of damnation. It’s not so much a matter of believing the right thing, but a matter of doing the right thing. The challenge is to make a heaven out of hell here, now, on earth, rather than just later, in heaven. Thinking of ourselves as human beings who are called to live up to our divinity, and recognising that divinity in others, instead of being merely consumers, or human resources, would be a good start.

[@marypinakat8594]

Awesome Comment☆

[@paull693]

I thoroughly enjoy the interaction with Barron and the speaker. This formation should be maintained

[@t.p.3532]

Thank you Bishop Barron for bringing me back to my lost Christ

[@chanman201]

Thank you for this interview. May the will of God be done on earth as it is in heaven.

[@heroicacts5218]

Agree with the format. I guess Bishop Barron can explore going back and forth from previous format and this one, with Jared Zimmerman or being 1 on 1 with the guests. I would not close the possibility of any format… It should depend on the topic, not a solidified structure… Again, great talk!

[@danmcgrath5712]

I love your work! But it seems you’re both engaging in name calling. Some trads may be rads, but they’ve found audiences due to bad bishops who affirm sin and cover up evil. Uncle Ted is to blame, not T’nT. Lagrange vs Balthazar? Who cares? We need “metaphysics you can use” not who’s the most Thomistic Thomist. Our Catholic schools are collapsing, and it’s not because of mean trads.

[@BishopBarron]

Not so! You know very well that many prominent trads, with thousands cheering them on in com- boxes, have been attacking the Pope, the Novus Ordo and Vatican II with enthusiasm. It’s not “name-calling” to call them to account.

[@benhutchinson9808]

@Brian Ortiz Dr Chapp has spoken about this elsewhere. He holds the position that he's going to be tough on the traditionalists because he thinks they're mostly right and he thinks they're in the ascendency. He doesn't want to get to a situation where they have power, but are still following the bad actors in their movement - he wants them to be victorious, but to be correctly victorious. He largely doesn't bother with liberals because he thinks they're crazy. Both of these men are against the beige Catholicism that trads are fighting - the fact that they disagree with a particular subset of trads should give us all pause as to why.

[@benhutchinson9808]

@Brian Ortiz apologies, that was poor phrasing from me. "On the path to ascendency" would have been better. Chapp sees it as inevitable that they will be the dominant force because the spirit of Vatican 2 type is not a self replacing ideology. In any event, the idea of "punching down" isnt something I have much truck with - a person or an idea is either wrong or they're right and if they're wrong they should be called out on it. If they're wrong, and they have increasing success based on their wrong ideas, the situation becomes ever more fraught. The absolute worst thing (and I think Chapp/Barron would agree) would be for the traditionalists to win the battle, but to win it with Marshall/Voris/Vigano/Gordon brothers et al leading the charge. A pyhrric victory that would be, no doubt.

[@BishopBarron]

@Brian Ortiz Two wrongs don’t make a right.

[@benhutchinson9808]

@Brian Ortiz Yes, Tim Gordon is far more sensible than the rest on Vatican 2, and some of the subtext seems to be that he and Marshall split over such matters. Vigano is the standout in that respect, although given the way in which Marshall treats Vigano and his (lately) silly pronouncements suggests there isn't much between the positions of those two. In terms of Voris, I think we can be guilty of gaslighting the other way - whilst he has done good work on sexual abuse matters in the past, that shouldn't blind us to the problematic way he goes about other things - misrepresenting Barron and von Balthasar is merely one example. And whilst it is somewhat subjective, I would wager you're going to convert far more people with a ressourcement view of the world than with a Voris view of the world. I will say this as well - it is entirely possible to criticise Pope Francis whilst criticising the bad actors of the traditional movement. Chapp himself does that, if you take a look at his blog (and the numerous interviews he's given on Traditiones Custodes over recent weeks/months). Finally, I agree that we should not downplay the problems that such people identify. I also think we should be careful not to get into a situation where we don't call them out on their errors due to them being "on the team" (as Marshall would put it. In saying that, if I could make one criticism of Bishop Barron, it is that he calls out beige, modernistic Catholicism just fine - but in an abstract way. I don't think I've ever seen him criticise the practical ways that such a view of the world manifest, and this does lead to some frustration on my part. I think it's a broader problem with the Bishops worldwide (and specifically with the USCCB). It seems to me that they are far too willing to stay silent in the face of poor acts from their contemporaries so as to not risk causing scandal. I will note that it seems to hold the conservative bishops back far more - I think theyre far too honourable when men like Cupich gladly breach such norms regularly to criticise positions that they disagree with, but that's another topic.

[@andrewheath1393]

For all of the people who take issue with Balthasar and Bishop Barron’s position on salvation: what exactly do you think the “good news” of Christ’s resurrection is? The narrow reading that very few will be saved seems to make Jesus into a mere policeman of sin, and, what’s worse, it makes our mission to evangelize a race to save people from…God himself? Can Christ, the second Adam, not take away the sin that infects all of creation which came through the first Adam? How do you deal with John 12:46-47 “ I have come as light into the world, so that everyone who believes in me should not remain in the darkness. I do not judge anyone who hears my words and does not keep them, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.” My point is not that “everyone gets saved immediately because Jesus is so nice”, but rather: we must evangelize because the new creation is now, the kingdom of God is at hand, and that new life (oriented toward heaven and the resurrection) belongs properly to the Church and is meant to be lived out from within Her as the beloved community. What a hopeful fire to spread throughout the world! Christ has died, Christ is RISEN, Christ will come again! Believe this good news because it’s true, and bring that witness into the community of the Church which our Savior has instituted!

[@andrewheath1393]

Fair enough, but what is Christ’s judgment? See the centurions during the Crucifixion: “Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing”. That’s as clear a judgment on those who clearly reject him. See St. Peter upon seeing the resurrected Christ. There is no condemnation for his betrayal when the cock crows 3 times, only a tender reception over breakfast with a renewed call to feed the flock. I don’t doubt the potentially difficult and painful work of those outside the church who have not truly understood the Gospel (I’m a lifelong Catholic who is still learning to see the bigger picture, little by little, through years over prayer, scriptural reflection, and receiving the sacraments), but I think it’s worthwhile to invoke purgatory here. I see that purification as a beautiful way of including all (or the vast majority) of humanity in Christ’s salvific work. It’s a spectrum-concept, not a toggle-concept. The notion of a time of purification is strangely absent from most of these debates which seemingly presume a “heaven or hell immediately after death” kind of theology

[@andrewheath1393]

I actually agree with most of your response. I would say that unbelievers have an absolute responsibility to seek the truth, but I’m sympathetic to the fact that one’s understanding of truth is going to be very dependent upon the religious and cultural background of one’s childhood and upbringing. That’s certainly no appeal to relativism, though. We as Catholics have a responsibility to encounter people where they are at, affirm whatever truth we can find, and then point them to Christ in a way that shows how He is the very fullness of Truth. I would push back against keeping too strict a partition between nature and grace, especially in the name of protecting man’s freedom to choose. That seems to be a very modern tendency, doesn’t it? What’s so great about my arbitrary choice anyway?? I want God to build upon my natural desires so that I may know the Good beyond my own limited understanding. How can one even truly choose The Good as such without knowing it prior to choosing? Even still, as we see with St. Paul, we can habitually act against what we know to be good for us. Hence the need for an overriding grace.

[@andrewheath1393]

You’re conflating my notion of grace with a particular Calvinist doctrine that doesn’t really have much to do with what I’m talking about. And are you really saying that someone who has committed murder is beyond the scope of salvation?? That’s repugnant to the gospel even if murder is a terribly grave offense against God and humanity. The point is not whether such a person can be forgiven, it’s the means by which God restores that person and how they, by the cooperation of their will, “make up” for such a heinous crime. That such a crime could possibly be forgiven in no way makes it OK on any reading. I won’t deny that those outside the church will ultimately be held to the standard of Christ and His Truth, but the notions of repentance and “the narrow way” really only make sense from within the Church and within the sacramental economy. My point is, as I think Bishop Barron’s is, that you draw people into that economy through hope of restoration and an appeal to the higher love of the coming kingdom, not the arbitrary threat of eternal torment.

[@andrewheath1393]

Ben Shapiro is not “screwed”. Full stop. That is the orthodox Catholic position and that should be a sobering fact for any would-be traditionalist or self-proclaimed theological conservative. And what then do you mean by “screwed”? At some point you’re going to have to make a dualistic choice between whether you believe in a cosmic savior or “policeman Jesus”

[@brendansheehan6180]

I disagree. Normativity can be seen medically. And morality is prudence.

[@timjicinsky1098]

I don't believe in indiffertism, I believe in insecurity. We need two things: a greater confidence in our small talents in a specialized society and God's guarantee of His blessings. and a flourishing of humility that we need a whole church.

[@marypinakat8594]

Yes indeed. Insecurity is something that no one seems to have put the finger on.

[@TheOjamaYellow]

Any chance we could get Cornel West on?

[@darthdarksbane1096]

Unfortunately, with all the references to theologians and philosophers I have never read, most of the first 20 minutes of the conversion was lost on me. In the future, I would encourage you to remember that most of your audience has not studied works you reference and explain what you actually mean when you reference them.

[@Daniel_Abraham1099]

Maybe you should go read them then.

[@Eserr7856]

Lol, I started googling these names to learn who they are. I think if we're watching a conversation about high level theology then we should be prepared to be unfamiliar and confused at times, but that is where the opportunity for research and growth comes for the responsibile and mature listener of said conversation, otherwise the prudent thing to do is not watch this conversation instead of criticizing the hosts.

[@pabloh5884]

God bless you Bishop Barron

[@v.a.l.i.s.2995]

A wonderful dialogue. Thank you!

[@mrsmaricarment5043]

This video is so much above my head. However, I did read Dare to hope......by Balthazar. The One Thing that I got from that book, don’t know exactly why, bc I read it a few yrs ago. That when I Hope all people be saved, I feel United to Jesus Christ hoping that all would hear His Call and be saved. When I heard Bishop Barrón talk on it few mos ago, I felt again that closeness to Jesus’s Heart. Both Baltazar and Bishop Barrón awake a desire to daily prayer for the Salvation of all souls. This Hope is a thirst, Jesus Thirst on the Cross, and experience it when I hope all would be saved. As a mother, I want the best for my children, grandchildren and great children. What would our Heavenly Father would want and hope?

[@evilmisterspock]

Great talk! I much prefer Bishop Barron when he's one on one with guests, too.

[@tonywallens217]

It’s more personal

[@RosWeeks]

I feel deeply "nourished by by parish community". It is a joyful, multi-racial, bi-lingual congregation, always full to the brim, with people of all ages and especially lots of younger adults and families. We meet afterwards, at coffee, to share the faith with each other, make new friends and welcome visitors. There is glorious music - our organist is one of N. America's finest - and the choir, 'distanced' because of Covid, sings the Mass on our behalf. The Mass isn't about me - 'my' likes and dislikes, 'my' theology, 'my' taste in worship, 'my' oh-so-impressive academic achievements/degrees - but about God, His demanding love for His sheep and the utter joyful adoration in His Presence. And, judging by your opening remarks, you would dismiss me entirely and call me a "Rad Trad"!

[@benhutchinson9808]

If you think they're dismissive of all that, then you're not listening properly.

[@jacobgray7007]

Hello fellow Catholics .. has anyone had any apparition from our blessed mother. pls share with me

[@elgusto5329]

And another thing, Dr. Taylor would have a difficult time with these two. Pseudo, indeed.

[@marypinakat8594]

I think it is better for us viewers here and for the Channel not to comment negatively about any other Channels. Let's not comment on those who calumny. Entrust all to God and pray.

[@elgusto5329]

Another thing, I pity those who have unfairly mis characterized and slandered those who still hold to the NO, VII, and a a honey like way of communicating to bring people into Christianity if not, Catholicism. I think many have been bamboozled. God, help us.

[@lucjay9]

If only I discovered Derek Prince's work on spiritual warfare decades ago, I never would have left the church for so long. I guarantee you cradle Catholics would not leave the church if they knew these concepts. Checkout Derek Prince video's on negative emotions or depression.

[@jjcm3135]

Yes. A serious Christian. Orthodox are also excellent.

[@supreadytoparty]

Yes! Please keep the format! This is what everyone wants! A true Bishop podcast!

[@bman5257]

27:50 No Bishop, you don’t have to be a fire and brimstone preacher, but if a man who is clearly not invincibly ignorant asks you if faith in Christ is necessary for salvation then you have to say Yes. Granted that there are exceptions and people can be in the Church without being visibly inside it. Granted that we can’t assume a person visibly appearing outside the Church is danmed. But if Ben were to die today and was saved, that would be an exception by God and not the rule. We should lead with the necessity of faith in Christ, follow up with Lumen Gentium 16 and talk about possible exceptions, while being sensitive in our language.

[@davidjohnzenocollins]

How do you sensitively tell Ben Shapiro he is going to hell for being Jewish?

[@elgusto5329]

Those were my thoughts exactly. I am thrilled with this discussion. I am a traditionalist as far as attending a TLM but was raised on Pope St. John Paul II. I can have both. Even Mother Angelica, no modernist, extolled the documents of Vatican II. She loved them but despised the misinterpretations. This is an important conversation. It’s one thing to love the reverence of the old liturgy but denounce all that came after? Count me out. Christ’s bride always!

[@bman5257]

@@davidjohnzenocollins You misunderstand. If Ben Shapiro is danmed it won’t be because he’s Jewish it will be because of all the sins he has committed in his life that he doesn’t have a way for atoning for. Nobody deserves to go to Heaven. If everything were fair we would all be in hell. You preach the necessity of faith in Christ like all of the apostles in the New Testament.

[@bman5257]

@@elgusto5329 I love Bishop Barron and his work too. I just wish he wouldn’t do this dance with Universalism.

[@BishopBarron]

@@bman5257 You mean you wish I didn't subscribe to the official teaching of the Church as articulated in Lumen Gentium? Friend, I've shown, over and over again, that Balthasar's position on this matter is not "universalism."

[@marypinakat8594]

"The greatest challenge of the day is how to bring about a revolution of the heart, a revolution which has to start with each one of us." - DOROTHY DAY

[@TerminatorT_31]

“Peace is never corporate never social unless at 1st individual. Social peace world peace is the extension of individual peace in our hearts. When we are right with god then we will be right with our fellow man. When we are not right with God then we’ll be wrong with everyone else” Bishop Fulton Sheen

[@jacobgray7007]

Hello fellow Catholics .. has anyone had any apparition from our blessed mother. pls share with me

[@elliotfrank119]

Wow five minutes in and this is awesome. We definitely need more moderate voices there are so many “Tradicals”

[@mchurch72]

Right, people that veil themselves for mass, abstain from birth control and fully buy into the thousands-of-years old teachings of the Church Christ founded regarding human sexuality are the problem - not liberal heretics.

[@robertsperry6457]

You will be sorry for eternity.

[@ms.leclaire9017]

What's the name of Chapps blog?

[@elgusto5329]

Gaudium et spes 22?

[@alanlo-557]

What leads people to intimacy with God? Pray for docility to Holy Spirit. The battle is not with your fellow man, no matter how erroneous you perceive his ideas to be. It is against the enemy of mankind, our common enemy. Our Blessed Mother urges us to pray, because reliance upon the flesh is simply futile.

[@marypinakat8594]

That's a greatly valuable comment☆

[@Elijah_Al-Naysaburi]

Good evening 🌷, pray for me father so I can devote my self to Mary pure heart & help my family & society . My name is suhail & I live in Dubai 💗💗💗

[@TerminatorT_31]

“Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.” Would this happen to be the violence you’re talking about when it comes to traditionalist?

[@christophersnedeker2065]

I don't think he meant literal violence.

[@TerminatorT_31]

@@christophersnedeker2065 Explain

[@christophersnedeker2065]

@@TerminatorT_31 his kingdom is not of this world. Not a government wielding a literal sword.

[@TerminatorT_31]

@@christophersnedeker2065 “The Lord brought a sword. It’s not the sword that’s thrust outward against the enemy. It’s a sword that’s thrust against ourselves, cutting out the seven pallbearers of the soul: pride and covetousness and lust and anger, envy, gluttony and sloth.” Ok we have a mutual understanding than