Tom Holland vs AC Grayling • History: Did Christianity give us our human values?

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Belief in the dignity, value and equality of human beings has become a cornerstone of Western societies. But how did those values arise?
Tom Holland’s book Dominion tells the story of how Christianity, came to positively shape the values of human dignity and equality the Western World. He debates with atheist philosopher AC Grayling, a Humanist who is critical of the place of religion in society.
Episode 5 | Season 2 of The Big Conversation
The Big Conversation is a unique video series from Unbelievable? featuring world-class thinkers across the Christian and atheist community. Exploring science, faith, philosophy and what it means to be human.
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3. Bart Ehrman & Peter J Williams • Peter J Williams vs Ba...
4. Dave Rubin & John Lennox Pt 1 • Dave Rubin & John Lenn... Pt 2 • PART 2 Dave Rubin & Jo...
5. Tom Holland & AC Grayling • Tom Holland vs AC Gray...
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[@PremierUnbelievable]

Hope you all enjoy this - one of the most epic debates we've recorded I reckon. Be the first to watch more debates and get updates and bonus content - sign up at www.thebigconversation.show .

[@carlf2842]

Good stuff alright. A lot to think about.

[@TheSaffronasha]

Three white Europeans....who are the VICTORS of Christianity proclaiming Christianity a victory although Grayling mildly pushed back. Why not ask all the indigneous people who's homelands were invaded, conquered and those that survived were oft time forcibly converted? Oh yeh, their voices have mostly been silenced. Might makes right. Love and Light Tara

[@eliasarches2575]

Great discussion! This was one of the best big conversations.

[@eliasarches2575]

@@greg5023 the murder of six million Jews was driven by radical scientific racism and what happened in Rwanda was a tribal conflict. These things would never have happened if these people read their Bible. As for what’s happening in the US - the governments’s actions there are for fully secular, non-biblical reasons.

[@asabove6815]

Unbelievable? GET A BLACK ISRAELITE TO DEBATE ON WHO ARE THE REAL JEWS

[@aaronclarke7732]

Given your vested interest in one side of the argument I think as a Podcast Unbelievable's professionalism and balance deserves praise compared to more partisan equivalents elsewhere on KZbin.

[@Iverath]

Modern Day Debate is clearly superior on that point, though.

[@elguapochango]

The full debates they post are good so I would agree with you there. However all the short selections they post are often pretty one-sided in the way they’re edited.

[@astaboy]

I've always been amazed at how many non-christians have helped my Christian faith.

[@theguyver4934]

Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )

[@astaboy]

@@theguyver4934 They were Jewish. It's impossible that they were vegetarians. Where are you getting this stuff from?

[@TheGlobuleReturns]

No you haven't, you just wrote that to feel smart and take a petty dig. This comment exposed you more than anything else.

[@astaboy]

Oh yes I have. And on multiple occasions. Looks like I hit a nerve with you. This comment exposed how insecure you are.@@TheGlobuleReturns

[@TheGlobuleReturns]

Ohhh noooo you haven't! This reply exposed how the nerve that took the hit was actually yours. In fact, I would be willing to bet money that you didn't even listen to the video. I bet you go around copy/pasting that into random youtube videos. @@astaboy

[@gretareinarsson7461]

In my country it was actually early christians who saved most of my countries early litterature; the Icelandic Sagas.

[@topologyrob]

Your country is a marvellous one (especially for music)

[@stypemann633]

The same in Ireland. The extent to which our pre-Christian mythologies survive is in what was recorded by monks. This notion of them as history-erasing zealots is so out of step with historical fact as to be laughable.

[@lw3646]

​@stypemann633 yes as mentioned the founding of the first european universities came about as a result of the church. I had a friend who used to tell me the Christian romans destroyed the library of Alexandria, that claim features in a Carl Sagan episode of Cosmos too. In fact the history seems to show a gradual decline I the library over centuries, including a probably accidental fire when Julius Ceasar was there. Its painful to think of all the lost works from that time but in a time later on where cities were repeatedly sacked its hardly surprising so many works were damaged or lost. Even far later on today we still know that Shakespeare wrote and performed some plays which we don't know anything about today expect the title.

[@grolstum211]

In my country ( where christianity actually began), Greece, it was the protochristian mob who burned every single classic library ( serapeion, library of antioch), destroyed every temple, killed every pagan philosopher, banned every non-christian gentile book, closed the academy of plato, the lyceum, banned the olympic games, executed and mutilated every priest and pagan philosopher ( simonides, maximus, gennus,hypatia), burned the work of archimedes, sappho, apollonius, celsus. Less than 2% of ancient greek literature survives and it is not DUE to christians. It is despite christian mobs. Christianity delayed human progress and corrupted human morality to an irreversible extend. The wisdom contained in the delphic maxims or in presocratic philosophy was orders of magnitude superior to faerie tales from goatfuckers in the uncivilised ddesert.

[@grolstum211]

@@lw3646 Your friend tells you the truth. Christians did burn down the serapeion library ( along with the huge library of antioch). We are talking about the 2nd burning of the library of alexandria. They also killed multiple philosophers, e.g hypatia and burned her work in mathematics. You should educate yourself better than some idiot christian apologist e.g tom Holland

[@mythosandlogos]

On the discussion on slavery around 53:00 , I found something relevant during research for my video on Native American mythology and European reactions to it. When Spanish philosophers debated how to deal with the New World, Bartolomé de Las Casas argued for peaceful discussion and conversion, from a Christian view. His opponent, Juan Gines de Sepúlveda, argues for enslaving them, based not on Christianity, but on Aristotle.

[@drewmann856]

Jonathan Archer Your utopia ends up in Maoist China. Social credit system, starvation and genocide, concentration camps for dissidents and religious people, total police state. I’m sure everyone is just totally going to go along with that.

[@MrAndreiPegasus]

Very interesting. Could you please send me the references for the Spanish philosophers debate?

[@robertfreid2879]

The Catholic Church also issued 'Sublimus Dei', which was issued against the brutalization of the New World peoples. Also, most peoples of the New World generally died from Old World Eurasian diseases (to the tune of 90-95 percent). A lot of disease of which, was actually brought into from the animals indigenous to the Eurasia-sphere during this point of great convergence (circa 1500-1800 A.D.). Because the only large animals ever domesticated in the New World were the Alpaca and the Llama (because that was all that was available to them, the rest of the relatively large domesticated animals were indigenous to Eurasia - which immunized peoples in that region against a lot of diseases that killed off the peoples of the New World). See Jared Diamond's brilliant work - "Guns, Germs, and Steel" for more information on this...

[@simeonb3726]

@@robertfreid2879 Which also unintentionally demolished the argument for the historicity of 'The book of Mormon'...

[@robertfreid2879]

@@simeonb3726 Yeah, the concept of the 'Virgin Soil Epidemic' really demolishes Mormonisms idea that their religious ideas somehow made contact with the Native Americans in Late Antiquity during the Pre-Columbian Period...

[@paulmarko]

"the cross was physically excruciating" That's where the word comes from, lol.

[@duncescotus2342]

Wow, you're right, if I had ever known that, I'd long forgotten, so thank you for pointing it out!!!

[@calum66]

Imagine being singled out for a mode of torture which would define torture !

[@IrradioMan]

that's why we gotta bring it back.

[@calum66]

@@IrradioMan Good luck with that thought .

[@Jasseme9813]

How do you mean?

[@ferrantepallas]

Holland's book Dominion is a magnificent work, a masterpiece in my opinion.

[@grolstum211]

I will buy it to wipe my @ss with it.

[@EyeByBrian]

I’m curious what other works of history qualify as a ‘masterpiece,’ in your opinion. Care to tell us?

[@ferrantepallas]

@@EyeByBrian Thucydides

[@CvW-iy8jt]

It's the most anti-hellenistic book I read, and I don't mean that as a compliment

[@asiangoofs4697]

@@CvW-iy8jt the greeks were wankers

[@randomfandom33]

This was nothing more and nothing less than a conversation where a historian educated a philosopher on history. Applause for Holland, he didn't back down like so many others do.

[@atilaorhan9864]

i doubt you were being objective

[@denverbritto5606]

@@atilaorhan9864 why? Grayling was clearly ignorant of many things.

[@denverbritto5606]

@@rationalsceptic7634 Richard Carrier lol

[@aaronclarke7732]

No history is objective. Bias is a significant part of human nature and therefore human storytelling.

[@asix9178]

@@denverbritto5606 _"Richard Carrier lol"_ Tom Holland, lol

[@warrenking3873]

I would say to the ending question about what Christianity offered the world that no other religion had, is the loving of one's enemy. That is a completely new way of thinking and treating each other.

[@juansenaranjo]

I was waiting exactly for a comment on that from Tom, and and then from any of you. Does Dominion make such distinction?

[@LaLaLonna]

It seems this is yet to be practiced though for a lot of Christians. Egyptians also usually made friends with their enemies (as a way to advance relationships throughout the Mediterranean) so it's not totally new.

[@thinking7667]

@@LaLaLonna Your example of Egyptians making friends with their enemies is what many countries have done for political reasons, but it's not the same as the Christian idea of loving your enemy.

[@glennsimonsen8421]

@@LaLaLonna Uh, LaLa, the Egyptians enslaved their enemies.

[@colindtrix2927]

Na hi verena verani sammantidha kudacanam averena ca sammanti esa dhammo sanantano.1 Verse 5: Hatred is, indeed, never appeased by hatred in this world. It is appeased only by loving-kindness. This is an ancient law. Loving ur enemy is not just coming from Christianity, even in buddhism and jainism have similar things but if you look at the bible there is many bible verses condone and justify violence against non believers and idoltary but in buddhism and jainism doesn't even encourage violence. Eg in pali canon Bhikkhus, even if bandits were to sever you savagely limb by limb with a two-handled saw, he who gave rise to a mind of hate towards them would not be carrying out my teaching. - Kakacūpama Sutta, Majjhima-Nikāya 28 at MN i 128-29[6

[@steveurquell3031]

I'm an atheist, or at least agnostic, contemptuous of Christianity as any religion, and a lover of people like Christopher Hitchens, yet Holland's book was so convincing it changed my perception deeply. I now agree with him, I recognize Christianity's total influence on my worldview, while still being atheist and religious critic, and still valuing the morality the Christian revolution provided. I think all of that is perfectly possible. He seems right on the money when he identifies today's secular and humanist evangelicalism as contingent on Christianity, without this requiring any exclusiveness for other faiths. To cite a Stoic, Seneca, "what is true is mine": atheists or people of any culture might value some products of Christianity and embrace them, without being Christian (although I know Holland focuses rightly on the headaches arising from the Nietszchean argument concerning unmooring Christian morality from its theology).

[@Joeshapiro7]

As Jews we've actually been having substantial discussions as to how secular humanist jews substantially differ from their formerly Christian counterparts

[@steveurquell3031]

@@Joeshapiro7 I'd be curious to hear more

[@tigran56]

“For two millennia Christianity has dominated!” Dominated who? The “light” was brought to the Americas in 1492, to culture(s) unaffected by either classical/pagan nor it’s Christian offspring. An invasion of an arrogance unprecedented. A trigger it seemed, for Christians to colonize and invade the world. Had they found their unalloyed Satan to hate in red and brown people? Are we waiting for Christianity to reflect what we are told Jesus imagined? Still waiting.

[@den8863]

I feel that many atheists ( mainly the new atheists) are ill informed or misinformed of what Christianity is. They are also unwilling to investigate it.

[@anthonybrett]

Great comment!

[@MrAlittleparty]

AC Grayling gets it categorically wrong when discussing who maintained Greek philosophy during the Muslim era. It was Syriac monks who were translating key Greek and Roman text prior to the establishment of the Caliphate, and through their work, such philosophies were maintained throughout.

[@sensennsen]

I know, even I, an atheist, cringed on his confidence of pushing the idea of Greek philo to the power of Christianity.

[@maxjelley4055]

this is true and overall i agree with holland, but i think that the involvment of the islamic translation movement in the 9th century is still signifficant

[@Lalakis]

@@sensennsen what is greek philo ? If you mean greek philosophy, it is beyond any debate that neoplatonism has influenced christianity more than even judaism itself.

[@crushinnihilism]

​@@Lalakis as has aristotles ethics. Aquinas appropriated his ethics into Christian theology. So, the idea Christianity has a supremacy on morality is absolute nonesense. Holland also fails to adress all the other EASTERN traditions that have "Christian" values centuries before Christ. Hes so biased I cant believe hes a non believer

[@lw3646]

​@@crushinnihilismI think the weakness in Holland's argument was Christian thought on sex and the dignity of the body was a massive revolutionary step forward in human morality, in other religions you take as many wives as you want, in the old testament King Solomon has 700 wives and 300 concubines and that seems fine yet in Judaism now monogamy is the norm but Holland would say Christianity came first. But its hard then for Holland to explain why there would have been brothels and prostitutes throughout the middle ages and medival ages, right up into the 18th even early 19th century. He's also a bit weak on slavery, why was it deemed okay for hundreds of years for European governments and merchabts to participate in the African slave trade? I'm not a Catholic but I think at times the church leadership has appeared more interested in earthly powers and pleasures but there have also been some very good popes and bishops too of course. St Augustine is probably the greatest Christian thinker of the early church in my opinion. Where Grayling seems weak to me is he cherry picks the things he likes from classical Greece, but discounts all the horrible bits, the genocide the Athenians commit, the women who can't leave the home unveiled or who can't eat a meal with a man, the xenophobic attitudes of Aristotle and Plato, I'm not attacking them, both men of their time and incredibly clever, knowable and influential. It seems mad though to deny the influence on our law courts for instance, people still swear on the bible. Humanism still seems a pretty minority viewpoint too. Grayling can't really offer any solid evidence or sources either that the early Christian authorities went out of their way to destroy classical culture.

[@wm.powell6215]

I recently finished Dominion-one of Mr. Holland's best works. I can't recommend it enough.

[@rontimus]

It is truly seminal, an absolutely amazing book....

[@WoundedEgo]

I suggest you consider your biases might be tainted by Christian nationalism.

[@wvp738]

@@WoundedEgo Far, far from being such a person-just thought it was his best work thus far. Until this book's publication, I thought Persian Fire was his best book. Just a fan.

[@cluckycluck3053]

I am a fan of both of these guys. Graylings book about greek philosphy, "Dream of Reason", is excellent. And so is Hollands book "Dominion". I feel privileged to listen to them discussing this for me fascinating topic.

[@bucksfan77]

It was fantastic

[@pyrrhusofepirus8491]

I heard his first argument, and I immediately thought ‘wait, so if Christianity smashed every in antiquity, but was basically inspired and filled with nothing but ideas of antiquity, then what’s the loss if we then still possess those ideas of antiquity?’

[@xlxxxxrxi1151]

I will be buying Toms book and I look forward to reading it. I didn't realise that my understanding of history had been so tainted by anti Christian sentiment.

[@denverbritto5606]

I'm Christian and my understanding of my own religion has been tainted by 18th and 19th century myths until a couple of years ago. Also a bunch of 20th C myths regarding Pope Pius and Hitler etc.

[@bouncycastle955]

When you find out what he means by homosexual, please let me know.

[@holdontoyourwig]

600 years before Jesus existed Greek Philosophers deliberated the concept of what " good " is and how " being good " would effect society. You can argue all you want about Christian culture and it's effect on the western world.....It's still derived from the Greeks. Tom simply doesn't want to accept that. He claims that it's still Christian in nature. It's not. It's Greek by design but tought as being Christian. Now that we know better we can stop with the nonsense.

[@denverbritto5606]

@@holdontoyourwig youre still not getting the point. Noones saying they didnt discuss it, but they didnt arrive at many of our core values that christianity arrived at (cmon here, platos utopia is some sort if fascict, totalitarian state), like valuing the weak as well as the strong in society, or trying to improve the condition of all humans, not just your own tribe.

[@holdontoyourwig]

@@denverbritto5606 I asked Christian friend of mine " why didn't Jesus tell people to free all slaves as it was wicked and wrong to own another human " He replied...." because people wouldn't have accepted him as the Messiah if he did " So Jesus ( knowing that it was wrong ( if he was God )) allowed slavery for the next 2000 years until humans figured out by themselves that it was wrong. Christian values are NOT what we use today in order to live a happy fulfilling and moral life. We don't stone our children or cast out gays or make women walk two steps behind us. The morality of that time belongs in that time. We have moved on....using philosophical thinking and debate.

[@owenbooler3184]

An interesting debate. But I am surprised Tom didn't call out AC's poor paraphrasing of the gospel. Jesus actually said that you should love your neighbour as I have loved you... Which goes beyond any other humanistic morality. Not to just love your neighbour as you love yourself, but love your neighbour as Jesus loved you that he died on the cross for us. This is what truely sets Christianity apart from any other religion or philosophy.

[@13olibrown]

Regardless of which side you favour, can we all at least agree that the way in which this conversation/debate was conducted was exemplary?

[@Nill757]

“Exemplary” Good but not exemplary. Great debate among the sharp and honest finds agreement on the historical facts and plays off differing conclusions. Grayling just wanders around denying everything. ‘Yeah lots of historic figures like Christ’ is historic sophistry.

[@grolstum211]

@@Nill757 I found Holland's answers weak and evasive. When asked to name some things given to west from christianity, his answer is probably the most stupid thing I ve heard in my life. His intellectual honest is that of an evangelist preacher of the bible belt. Monogamous lifetime matrimony has existed since mesolithic and chalcolithic age. For crying out loud multiple pagan cultures all over the world had this instititution. The ancient greeks not only had 2 goddesses for that ( Hestia and hera) but one of the god damn delphic maxims urged men to marry to one woman for their whole life. Homosexuality and heterosexuality and their nuances has absolutely nothing to do with christianity ( apart from stoning the former to death). Eastern cultures or pre-abrahamic religions had a far more sophisticated approach to this. The idea of secularism/of being religions ..... is he having a stroke ? The concept of science ? ( are we talking about the same christianism which still describes the universe creation in genesis, the one that burned bruno giordano and persecuted galileo while still opposing darwin , the one that burned the classic world ?) The idea of "humans are created to the image of god" ? Every single anthropomorphic religion is based on this notion. The gods of e.g the pagan nordics were not insects or centipede like. They were humans because it is man who wants their creators to look like them, not the other way around. So ofc....our god created us to his image. Babies make little humans out of playdoh and clay In short this illiterate thing that self identifies as historian ( lol ) needs to think more before uttering such baffling stupidities, especially with this absolutely irritating pitch and lisp.nd

[@anomietoponymie2140]

Meh, I can agree that it was fascinating and could have been a lot worse but exemplary? I guess the bar is so very low these days that congenial gentlemanly debate is something extraordinary.

[@ManForToday]

@@Nill757 It was a very polished and sophisticated version of Matt Dilahunty plus actual knowledge of philosophy. But the historical analysis is equally pathetic and entirely unfounded by ACG.

[@IsaacPSmith]

It's amazing how committed to the Gibbonian myths Grayling is.

[@piesho]

What difference does it make?

[@mattcorregan4760]

@@piesho Because truth matters

[@mattcorregan4760]

@F. Bev. What revisionist history are you referring to? Do you have any evidence for your statement?

[@DJ-toblerone]

@F. Bev. Sure, but also to those who are not committed to myths.

[@lw3646]

Yes, though it did seem a bit like in the debate he was told he was either repeating Gibbon or that he was repeating christian thinking without knowing it, not an original thought though.

[@jeremiahbok9028]

As much as I generally prefer discussions about the big-picture of religion, I loved how nerdily specific and meticulous this was.

[@haydenbarnes5110]

History is like that

[@Inharmonics77]

I have come to believe truth is in the details!

[@scottmcloughlin4371]

@@Inharmonics77 Grayling is an anti-Christian propagandists working for WEF. Look it up. There's a detail that doesn't show up in this "debate."

[@zarandrewstra7833]

David Bentley Hart helpfully points out that “religion” in the abstract, as an umbrella category, deracinated from any local and regional context, doesn’t exist, and the concept of “religion” is an accretion of the analytic and materialist supremacist Western hegemonies upon the myriad religions of the global east and south. What Western colonialism calls “religion” is just the life and practice, the warp and woof, of peoples who had no concept of “religion” per se. It’s like how there’s no such thing as Christianity, but rather many christianities.

[@zarandrewstra7833]

@Good Grief it’s peppered throughout his work, but I would read Atheist Delusions and Being, Consciousness, Bliss, these are the two most pointed criticisms of modernity as Western supremacy. Excellent books.

[@ryanskol83]

“Our hearts are restless, until they can find rest in you.” Augustine of Hippo (354-430), in Confessions.

[@Frederer59]

I profoundly hope that Tom is not the last of the thread and that academia will not banish (even persecute) such thirsty minds. Tom is my champion in this discussion.

[@tresortshimbombo3133]

I read Tom Holland's book and I was looking forward to listening to him. And I'm not disappointed. Very sharp, balance in his speaking and most importantly truthful. Instead of throwing revisionism slogans like the professor, he stays sharp and insists on backing arguments with evidence which our so learnt professor wasn't able to match.

[@greensquare6235]

What evidence?

[@ThermaL-ty7bw]

the guy didn't HAVE ANY ''evidence'' just HIS opinions of books he's read , AND ... the bible ... which ISN'T ANY EVIDENCE FOR ANYTHING IN THE WORLD , it's just a book a book that can't be verified for about the same 80% you REALLY THINK Egyptian culture wouldn't have written down ANYTHING about the millions of slaves who just left ? nothing to found in a culture that wrote down EVERYTHING or that in that same desert ... NOTHING has EVER been found in connection to the story ? ever why didn't the egyptians worship ''YOUR'' god ? why don't the muslims worship YOUR god ? the indians ? the chinese ? people who've never seen another race of human being in the jungle they live ? why ? shouldn't they ? ALL of them ? if it was all real ? people are SO stupid , they will never understand this simple thing , god/source is all , that means YOU , ME , ALL OF US , EVERYTHING who are people praying too ? to themselfs ! you think THIS ... is ''healthy'' ? think again ... and that people need to imagine someone to talk to when they feel bad ? you THAT's healthy ? that they can't even get through their lives on their own merits , without the help of some IMAGINARY DEITY that's ALL it is , because YOU ARE ALL there ever was and ever will be ... WHO DO YOU NEED HELP FROM ? really ... !!! ??? who do you need to be scared of ? from yourself ... ? because there IS nothing else ... people wouldn't BE scared or afraid to ... idk ... go look for a job , do something that you wouldn't dare without praying first ... , ANYTHING people sit at home ...doing NOTHING , but reading stories about people LIVING THEIR LIVES 2000 YEARS AGO ... HOW IS THAT ''living'' ? how ? people need to wake the fuck up and KNOW WHO THEY ARE and that ANY church , mosk , hindu temple IS EMPTY AS FUCK ... there's nothing in there ... why would there be ? EVERYTHING IS IN YOU ... everything ,; the complete universe know who YOU are , and tell people who THEY are , and you'll HELP a lot more people then ANY ''god'' ever could ... if YOU don't see that ... i'm sorry , but you're not who you think you are , i think you're too soft to even start thinking how powerful you really are

[@Bobmudu35UK]

@@ThermaL-ty7bw Holland is a humanist, his argument is where western civilisation comes from. The evidence he speaks of isn't evidence of God's existence.

[@djrule1137]

@@ThermaL-ty7bw I think you need some help man, what are you even doing watching this video? Clearly looking for answers but you obviously didn't listen to much of what Holland was saying. He isn't a Christian he just understands its place in history better than virtually anyone going around.

[@plzenjoygameosu2349]

Now everyone in this comment thread should know what theists experience online. Namely, the online atheists types would just spam slogans and chant NO EVIDENCE, without understanding what the video is about, the content or the argument in question. If this happens on a historical video merely about Christianity’s influence rather than the truthfulness of Christianity, how much more rampant is it when it is on the more controversial topic. The chanting of the reprobate minds is numbing, and shuts down all possibility of rational discourse, when all the atheists says is “NO EVIDENCE!!!!!“, despite the theist’s best efforts to share findings and advancements in natural theology (philosophical arguments for the existence of God), setting aside whether it’s ultimately right or not, which isn’t the highlight of this comment, but rather to draw attention to the fact that no matter how good, true, or logically airtight, setting all those aside, to the biased reprobate mind, all he’s instinctively going to respond with is “NO EVIDENCE!!!!!” I leave it up to the reader to decide whether such an approach is what rational adults should be engaged in.

[@nerdanalog1707]

When speaking about the "love" of the Jains and the fact that they respect all life, and comparing it to Christianity, AC Grayling is making a big mistake, especially for a philosopher. Indeed, the Jains do not want to kill any living thing, so much so that they sweep the ground before they walk on it so that they don't crush or kill any life form, but they do this in order to break the karma cycle they are in so that they never have to be reincarnated. The impulse they have to do these things, is not altruism, it is egotism. This is reflected by how they beg for their food, they cannot kill plant form either, but they do not mind if someone else does so (therefore condemning themselves to another cycle of reincarnation) and they do not mind eating this plant form so long as they did not kill. I do not find this to be love for one another, but love for one's self, and only thinking about one's self. Buddhism works a bit in the same manner. It's not really altruistic, it's centered on one's self.

[@myla6135]

Interesting. Many years ago I had a friend who was very into meditation and Eastern spiritual stuff. I recall one time saying something to her about helping others, which I rather assumed would be her sort of thing, and she came back very quickly with "I'm not doing this to help anyone else. This is just about me" and she laughed. Despite not being then or now a supremely kind and compassionate type, I was suitably surprised, nay shocked.

[@ThePalePrince]

Christianity has the ultimate egotist carrot and stick, with it's older version, Judaism, offering earthly rewards. All religions have to do this. I'd still say Jainism is the most altruistic

[@nerdanalog1707]

@@ThePalePrince There is no altruism in Jainism. Sure they wear masks and some have a broom so as to never ever kill any time of life form, as in their view this is bad and would continue the cycle of reincarnation, which in their view is bad. They also believe that plants should not be killed either, as they are also a form of living entity. But then how can they live? Well they let other people kill animals and plants for them to eat. They don't really see these living entities as worth saving from death, it's just that they themselves don't kill. They don't have a problem with eating the death life forms and they don't have a problem with others doing it for them. It's all about them and how they are going to stop their reincarnation cycle. Not about others. They don't have any thoughts about feeding or educating the poor. What matters is to stop your reincarnation cycle; it's all centered on themselves.

[@kiranpeter5630]

Nerd Analog I agree with you.

[@greyscott5908]

@@nerdanalog1707 Couldn't you also in turn argue, maybe not to the same degree, that a decent amount of Christian ethics is centered on self serving altruism? I think a large distinction between ancient Jewish beliefs and Christian beliefs is of dualistic after lives. For Ancient jews, what awaited after death was Sheol, an endless sleep, oblivion. The modern view of the afterlife is very much post biblical. And the idea that you will be rewarded in heaven and punished in hell based on how you follow scripture is in one way dangling a carrot on the stick. Even in today's society it's still up for debate on how to be saved, because it's such an important aspect of the faith, and many would argue the most important. Jesus dying on the cross for our sins is undoubtedly one of the most altruistic symbols in human history, but it is still represented in a mythological sense, how much we champion our own salvation. So isn't ultimately the good you do in the name of Christian values and ethics, rooted in getting the best afterlife possible?

[@RonaldDPotts]

Tom is a historian of the classical age. I love philosophy but philosophers rarely lack the hubris to disregard experts when arguing with the expert in their own field

[@staggeredpotato6941]

hehe history without philosophy feels like information without wisdom.

[@lawrence-dol]

Staggered Potato : Perhaps. But philosophy without history is every generation thinking they’ll finally do socialism the right way. Government only works when it serves the people governed - now who was it that said something about those who would lead should seek to serve in the same way he did?

[@henpines]

expert? he is a bachelor

[@yelenaangeleski3354]

@@henpines The statement holds: philosophers regularly preach science to top=flight scientists. Sometimes they have a point, but often the hubris is just hilarious.

[@thucydides7849]

Anyone is capable of reading the classics 10 times each

[@alexassali3628]

Tom is an asset. Hard to distinguish facts these days but he makes it clear and loud

[@andrewclough660]

An asset to Christianity!

[@vinix333]

I found quite the contrary. According to my knowledge he mostly refused important historical facts and created his own false narratives.

[@misterauctor7353]

@@andrewclough660 ???

[@misterauctor7353]

@@vinix333 According to your echo chamber?

[@robertbentley3589]

Wtf. Tom Tom?

[@dm-gq5uj]

Ironically, the exchange between Grayling and Holland reminded me of the scene from "Life of Brian" with Grayling asking the equivalent of Cheese's "What did the Romans ever do for us?" "Well, they built the aqueducts. and then there's the roads...and sanitation!"

[@fukpoeslaw3613]

Cheeses? it's not Cheeses it's *all* dairy products!

[@skwills1629]

@@fukpoeslaw3613 - But its just a Cheesy Comedy Mate.

[@martifingers]

Most of these debates are excellent and this is no exception. Well chaired too.

[@TheSpaniard-5337]

One of the most important philosophical aproaching methods I've learned as a layman, is that there is very rearly a simple 'just so' explanations to complex issues. Specially regarding our history. However to Grayling allmost everything seems to presents itself as 'it's just this or just that' -stories... I find that interesting

[@Diego.1812]

The most interesting video I’ve ever seen on KZbin! Thanks! I’ve upheld Tom’s ideas about Christianity and the West for more than a decade and I couldn’t be happier to see that a rather more knowledgeable man supports, with better arguments than me, what is evident to anyone who has some sensitivity to how ideas work and how we share and believe in so many things that are not natural or universal even though we tend to believe they are (e.g. human rights).

[@KevinArdala01]

Possibly the best discussion I've ever watched - great stuff! 👍

[@howardbabcom]

Brilliant! Tom Holland totally conveys the unique contribution that Christianity has constantly made to the world.

[@deanodog3667]

My favourite contribution is the dark ages and burning women and free thinkers at the stake , just a few personal faves of mine !!

[@jordancox8294]

@@deanodog3667 dark ages are a myth. Please read Tim Oneill's blog.

[@howardbabcom]

@Cliff Hanley Listen to what he says... and read Dominion.

[@nuux1560]

​@Cliff Hanley There's no doubt that modern Western liberal values and ideals are mostly premised on Christian beliefs; they are all historically speaking, heretical derivations that evolved and trace back to Christianity.

[@henrik_worst_of_sinners]

deano dog What a red herring. Women had no power what so ever before Christianity not even in Judaism in which the covenant was through the man. You can trace women rights back to baptism in which she becomes a Child of God with all the graces that comes from it. The Christian marriage ceremony for example demands the approval of the bride to be valid. This simple never happend anywhere before Christianity. Like Tom says in the debate, your attitude itself depends on Christianity

[@theologyinsights3136]

Holland is a historian. Grayling is a philosopher. It shows in this debate.

[@george17perris]

I know, Tom fails at simple critical thinking.

[@TheMeaningCode]

Two movies one screen.

[@jourdan4am]

@@george17perris I know, Grayling fails at simple philosophy.

[@FindleyOcean]

Theology Insights Tom is not a historian. He only has an undergraduate education.

[@patkul2]

@@george17perris I think critical thinking on non-factual data is worse.

[@josiaslima9547]

It would be so good have subtitles in the videos. Especially for me that are just a beginner in English. I like so much the discussions that happens on this channel.

[@NathanEllery]

Push the CC button under the video.

[@Darrow_Au_Andromedus]

Interesting, John Wesley, George Whitfield, John Woolman, Olaudah Equiano, William Wilberforce, John Newton - all lived in the 18th century - all opposed and worked to abolish slavery - all were Christian.

[@micahmatthew7104]

That’s a story the atheists won’t tell you

[@redmed10]

And no Christians supported slavery? Christians even today are using the Bible to support or justify slavery.

[@jesuscorona3562]

@@redmed10 whats so different from being a modern worker bro, it definitely feels like slavery only you get to go "home" by the end of the day. lol.

[@redmed10]

@@jesuscorona3562 Is your boss entitled to treat you like slave owners are allowed to treat slaves in the Bible? No? Thought not. FFS.

[@jesuscorona3562]

@@redmed10I was making a funny comparison not a serious one to begin with, but for the sake of your argument, give me an example, and give me the verse #

[@shaunthayer4713]

That has got to be one of the best debates I have ever heard...exceptional. And very well moderated.

[@eliasarches2575]

Wow. That was one of the best conversations I’ve heard on unbelievable - and it was between two non-religious people! I will definitely be buying Tom’s book!

[@wib6044]

Bought the audiobook. It’s very good so far. Extremely objective, and presents as much of the whole historical picture as possible. Chapter 14 on the history of the Chinese realizing their star charts were wrong...very interesting.

[@skybellau]

Alexander Hamilton, its obvious Tom is a closet christian. Only AC Grayling was the atheist. And that is the real reason why christians here have not appreciated his academic contribution to this debate. Such is the bias of religiosity. Bane of our lives.

[@eliasarches2575]

So the only way you can dismiss what Tom is saying is by using the appeal to bias fallacy (when you are only guessing he's a Christian)?

[@skybellau]

@@eliasarches2575 im doing neither. Both are exemplary academics. A closet christian, like a closet mystic is unaware of their biases, they only 'believe' they are irreligious. But its easy for those trained to see, the religious mind dismisses historical information (often with a huge grin) in order to retain the beliefs they hold dear. Same happens when the desire to be right trumps facts. Thats why i suggested watching the vid twice. Both offered excellent information. Its simple, beliefs are not facts and nurturing them causes blind spots (biases). But thats nothing, compared to suggesting human intelligence can function even more sensibly without any beliefs whatsoever. Whoa! that brings on an even worse tanty, but its worth checking out.

[@eliasarches2575]

Making an appeal to bias is an informal fallacy though... no use pointing out perceived bias, try pointing our errors of fact.

[@gazsibb]

Stupendous clash of the titans. Wonderful. Thank you.

[@zonunralte4742]

How engrossing......I really enjoy listening to this conversation.

[@malgorzatajakubowska-chaab3613]

Tom Holland is my favourite historian. Thank you. He is definitely clearer and more convincing in his argument.

[@karennaessens7941]

Not necessarily. He's a bit more aggressive in his arguing. He likes togas and dominion. That's all. But as Christianity showed: it is not the most aggressive or the most dominant who is necessarily the one who is right. I see value in the arguments of both men. Tom certainly seems to lack knowledge of eastern philosophies, who DO have a lot in common with humanism - and Christianity, for that matter. There is an innate tendency towards goodness in all peoples (even within primates). To have that tendency come to the fore in complex societies requires development. In the west, we do have Christianity and its deep roots to thank for it. Christianity further voiced ancient ideas and built upon them. Perhaps we could have done it without Christianity, but it did galvanize us around those particular ideas, in a society transforming way, even if the ideas were not originally christian or not exclusively so. Christianity did hold us back and had to evolve in certain ways. Tom should recognise this more. But we were able to build on Christianity, as we were able to build on the classics. Other parts of the world have their traditions leading them to very similar ideas and values. That is not cherry picking. It is quite striking. That does not diminish christian tradition.

[@s2a1ha1j2a]

Wow, thank you so much for this.

[@cellestinohernendes3081]

I thought Holland very clearly took this. I do not find it difficult to accept the obvious influence of the Christian tradition on western culture whilst holding an atheistic standpoint on the existence of God.

[@someobserver844]

That is my impression too. I am not a believer, but I recognize and appreciate the influence of the christian faith.

[@glennsimonsen8421]

A unique contribution of Christian thought which Tom missed: "Love your enemy, and pray for those that persecute you", from the Sermon on the Mount.

[@FaFa-fl1kh]

... arguably the most powerful contribution.

[@robertbruce1552]

Well Tom said at 21 minutes, the God who loves the jews now loves every body else. That is his point, that love is power.

[@nobodynowhere7163]

Which NOT A SINGLE CHRISTIAN HAS EVER FOLLOWED... all Christians have done all the way to the 20th Century is killing their enemies every single time they have had a chance.... so what are we talking about here? and at the end of it all, the one thing Christianity has brought up in humans is HYPOCRISY.

[@kingdomsoldierarmory]

@@robertbruce1552 with all due respect to Tom, this expression of his is very wrong in light of the truth of Scripture. The truth is, God had always loved all people, but the world had rejected Him. He chose Israel to serve as a type of “guide” to show the world the way back, which has always been through faith. But Israel rebelled countless times and at several points was even far worse than the pagan nations around her. When Christ came, He brought the way for all people, and His birth was through Israel. This was and had always been the promise.

[@johnlee5423]

@@kingdomsoldierarmory oh dear 😳

[@ericgatera7149]

Excellent Dialogue. I am curious now about the book, Dominion!

[@mr_jchristian]

Just downloaded Dominion. Can't wait to read it.

[@ocrancienthistory3326]

These conversations should be longer still: there was so much both had left to say.

[@andrewgough5]

Aother excellent conversation. I thought Grayling was at his weakest - and showing just how thoroughly Christian he is - when he was claiming that human reason can arrive at a concept of equality; that reason can deliver the human rights tradition of western culture. I most fully appreciated this issue when for a several years I taught a course on Nietzsche including a study of "Beyond Good And Evil". Human reason, engaging with the most simple empirical evidence, can easily identify that humans are very far from equal. Choose any feature - size, strength, intellligence, wisdom - and what is completely obvious is that humans are radically different and unequal. Human equality is based entirely on a theological concept of 'made in the image of God' granting a fundamental equality despite the obvious for all to see INEQUALITY. Nietzsche claims that it is entirely natural, right and proper for the strong to dominate and use the weak - a view clearly shared by many in the classical world and elsewhere throughout human history.

[@Spope8581]

Thank you! Those are extremely well put points, especially your contrast of the obviousness of human inequality to the unique declaration of fundamental equality that is only truly given in the Judeo-Christian teaching.

[@joelrodriguez1232]

excellently put.

[@asix9178]

_"Human reason, engaging with the most simple empirical evidence, can easily identify that humans are very far from equal."_ WOW!! Really? You think AC was referring to "equality" in the sense of being physically/mentally "equal"? Sorry, but that just makes you look really ignorant and/or desperate. He's talking about humans being "equally" human.

[@joelrodriguez1232]

@@asix9178 that's not what he said. We are talking about equality in the sense of being human beings. Tom Holland (and the vast majority of ancient historians) recognizes that the idea of equality come from Paul not the Greeks and the idea of universal human value comes from Genesis and the theological interpretation not the Greeks. Anyone who believes in universal human values and equality is because they are thinking like a Christian, since the entire western civilization is based on Judeo-Christian values.

[@joelrodriguez1232]

@@Hylianamused uh yes.

[@garyhughes1664]

In the 1950s we had Copleston vs Bertrand Russell. Today we have the likes of Holland and AC Grayling tackling similar religious issues. Wonderful stuff and an excellent discussion from both sides. Very much enjoyed.

[@grolstum211]

Comparing Holland to either of these 2 names you mentioned is comparing a turd to gold

[@samuelglenn123]

(At 58.01) AC Grayling points to Giovanni Pico Della Mirandola's "Oration on the Dignity of Man" as a moment in which the paradigm shifts, the medieval emphasis on divine will is decentered and the human will affirmed. Whilst Pico's "Oration" is most certainly an affirmation of the human - the argument he presents is thoroughly and explicitly grounded in Christian theology and assumptions. This seems to be simply the wrong text to invoke in support of the thesis Grayling wants to pursue - namely, that Humanism did not emerge out of Christian tradition. In fact, I would suggest, a close reading of the "Oration", the so-called 'Manifesto of the Renaissance', leads one to precisely the opposite conclusion. Consider, for example, the following excerpt from the text: "But upon man, at the moment of his creation, God bestowed seeds pregnant with all possibilities, the germs of every form of life. Whichever of these a man shall cultivate, the same will mature and bear fruit in him. If vegetative, he will become a plant; if sensual, he will become brutish; if rational, he will reveal himself a heavenly being; if intellectual, he will be an angel and the son of God. And if, dissatisfied with the lot of all creatures, he should recollect himself into the centre of his own unity, he will there, become one spirit with God, in the solitary darkness of the Father, Who is set above all."

[@duncescotus2342]

Yes, I think I understand. Brilliantly put. I am reminded of the Creation of Adam in Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel, which avoids blasphemy by sheer artistic genius and immense sensitivity: Adam reclines in glorious physicality while a somewhat aged God the Father, supported by angels, stretches forth to create him. The mindblowing paradox of Humanism, in light of the purely secular version, which by no means destroys the paradox, is that man is the very image of God, and of course nothing presents this paradox more poignantly than the narrative of Jesus.

[@davidfanning1600]

Nice to see a debate where participants allow each other time to develop a point as opposed to the current party political so called debates.

[@matthewstokes1608]

hear hear

[@LuisJavierCastro]

This podcast it´s absolutely brilliant, thank you.

[@rocoreb]

I went to school in Greece for a large portion of my secondary education, and what this guy Grayling is saying seems ridiculous to me.The notion that the classical ancient Greek texts were transmitted to the rest of Europe (west) by the Arabs is simply an asinine reading. In fact, it is historical revisionism. The vast majority of ancient Greek philosophical thinking was preserved in the Greek speaking eastern Roman empire (otherwise known as Byzantium), as it was their own tradition by the monks. Of course, some of the corpus was handed down to the west by the Arabs, but it has been blown way out of proportion in modern western education. Just for reference, the three Great Church Fathers of the Eastern Orthodox Church, which most in the west might not have even heard of, Basil of Caesarea (330AD), Gregory of Nazianzus (329AD) and John Chrysostom (407AD) were all well versed in the ancient Greek classics as it was required for their education. But the west has clung in to Aquinas, Augustine and Anselm. After or a little before the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans (1453) most scholars from the city and the east in general moved to Rome and Italy and partially sparked what would later become the Renaissance by passing on the knowledge that had always been theirs in the first place. A third grader in Greece would laugh this guy out of the room, so little is his knowledge in history. But I forgot, Muslims good, Christians bad....

[@kevan5321]

@rocco. Exactly, even Armenian orthodox monks were given an island off of Venice...

[@tonyvega3622]

Grayling is actually correct... the rise of Christianity helped usher in the dark ages and it was Muslims who were open preserving the classical works and science. Unlike Christianity that actually persecuted these advances. During these modern times, secular humanist has help advance these causes, Christianity actually just been fortunate enough to dominate the same sphere, whereas it seems like the eastern world has fallen behind. However, the east have made some profound gains in the recent decades.

[@Markph7]

Tony Vega Byzantine Christian monks 350-1400. Muslims 650-Now. That’s 300 years of Christian preservation you are not facing. 300 years is longer than the USA has existed

[@tonyvega3622]

asdf asdf dude.. this has nothing to do with the left and or right. This is not a political thing. The truth is that rise of the Christian empire did not tolerate or value the classical works. Some can argue that it was one of the reasons for the fall of Rome and ushered the western world into the dark ages... whereas the Islamic conquest of the past (i.e the moorish conquest of the west) allowed the conquered to practice their beliefs and tolerated and valued the classical ideas of the past and persevered them. The professor is correct to say that Christianity appreciation of the classical values are a modern thing. But like I mentioned before, Islamic world seems to be more intolerable in our modern times than its Christians counterpart (however there are still many Christians that are hindrance to science and classical values today also).

[@tonyvega3622]

asdf asdf you bring up Thomism as if it was initially accepted welcomingly by the church and Christian communities .. it was not. You’re making my point exactly about how Christians behave to such ideas at the time.

[@florin9022]

Well-played gentlemen! All three of you. 👍

[@johnmott8047]

Excellent debate on a very critical topic. Thank you "Unbelievable" once again for maintaining such a high standard for civilized discussion on the important issues of our day.

[@borneandayak6725]

Tom Holland's arguments is very convincing.

[@garyhughes1664]

I watched this discussion not so long after it was first posted online. I’ve now watched it for a second time and still think it is a wonderful conversation by two intellectual giants, both experts in their respective fields of history and philosophy. I really enjoyed watching it (again!).

[@richardsimpson8466]

This is a wonderful discussion with interesting counterpoints and interpretation of essentially the same data.

[@yneleg]

Superb conversation in every way. Learned a lot from both sides.

[@dakotataylor4696]

Wow what a beautiful interview

[@AG-jf6wg]

Buying "Dominion." Very good discussion.

[@charlesarmstrong1888]

I'm gonna buy both Dominion and A History of Philosophy. Very interesting discussion indeed.

[@andrewclough660]

Don't be an idiot

[@blooobish]

wish this was twice as long

[@michaelvout7813]

Good intelligent argument and evidence on both sides. Both emphasise and amplify the points which support their position and highlight the weaknesses of the other. This is typical of all debates. Let’s just accept that both positions contain both weaknesses and valuable material.

[@MrJdam0079]

Unbelievable genuinely hosts some of the best discussions, not just in terms of Christianity, but just in general! I've gained so much insight into Christian history and theology from these podcasts and videos, keep up the good work!

[@jonathanhill5926]

Whatever Mr Holland’s personal relations with Jesus , he gives an excellent defence & argument for the Christian faith .

[@epicccurusaurelius2634]

He is an atheist. He calles himself a cultural christian. And thats right. He has come out of a christian culture.

[@danthefrst]

Great conversation! Tom h Holland is just all too nice a man. Great many thanks

[@robmckay5421]

enjoyed this debate very much

[@felicianothorpe8998]

This was so good!

[@doreenwilson]

Grayling failed to make a persuasive case. Well done Mr Holland, I'm convinced and intrigued.

[@timothymulholland7905]

These are two first-rate scholars. Thank you for sharing them with us. There is no way that 1500 years (or so) of Christian authoritarian rule in Europe would not leave profound effects on its History and thought. The rediscovery of Greek thought sparked the end of the Middle Ages, but it could not have simply replaced Christianity. What we got was a fusion of those cultures, the Reformation and the invention of modernity. We have both to thank. Afterthought: Paul’s contribution was central. He upgraded Jewish Christianity to incorporate aspects of Greek thought, especially abstract concepts. Thus the Greeks influenced modern Europe both through and around Christianity.

[@ssjcosty]

Of course Christianity played a (massive) role in Europe's history. I think they were talking a bit past each other. Holland insists in describing everything in terms of Christianity, which of course can be done, but it is a miopic endeavor. Grayling, while not outright denying the influence of this religion, insists that Christianity rehashes much of the philosophical thought, religious myths and traditions that predate it. Neither of them are entirely right or wrong, it's just that they focus on different things.

[@thinking7667]

How did Paul incorporate Greek thought into christianity? It's not as if he was Greek. He was Jewish and a Roman citizen.

[@colindtrix2927]

Also what about the islamic scholars in golden age of Islam.

[@konyvnyelv.]

Without modernity we'd still be burning witches

[@GienekGienerator]

It was in modernity that witch burning was brought back. In middle ages believe that witch had real magic power was heresy.

[@paulgee521]

Loved. Well done!!!

[@BugMateo]

Excellent debate, gents... thank you both.

[@ansaz14]

AC Graylin: give me one thing! Can’t think of one. Also AC Graylin: you’ve given me so little

[@johnmorkel2350]

Tom: Lists 10 things plus more ... AC Graylin: I said one ...

[@MissBlennerhassett876]

When did this happen in the debate please?

[@piesho]

Actually, he was give nothing. "Long lasting matrimony"? Pf! If you don't get along with your spouse anymore, get a divorce. Why take the risk of killing each other one day?

[@braden_m]

The problem was that the ideas Tom was giving could so easily be attributed to cultures before and outside of Christianity, and also that even if one were to grant that these things were uniquely Christian, they were hardly good things, which you would expect would come from the true religion

[@ansaz14]

@@braden_m "Could Attribute" vs. "Causal Link"

[@Trex100]

Highly interesting discussion. Thank you.

[@edh.9584]

The observation that the three great men - Buddha, Confucius, and Socrates - were part of almost the same generation is wonderful.

[@haze1123]

I bought Tom's book and can't wait to read it this summer!

[@bzdjorde]

This was fantastic, Holland is such a good scholar and I am very confused why Grayling even has a job

[@xavija9349]

Holland is amazing, his honest person and an example for every christian.

[@unicyclist97]

He's an atheist. He'll burn in hell.

[@martenhulterstrom9706]

@@unicyclist97 no he wont. He will become dust just as all of us.

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

Oh Joel - return to me with all your heart

[@freebornjohn2687]

@@benjaminlquinlan8702 Oh Ben - get ready to turn to dust

[@lewreed1871]

Loved this! Thanks! Have to say, I don't think Grayling got quite the drubbing I'd been led to expect.

[@wonderpeter5231]

Very good one! Really can't decide who I find more convincing

[@talkingthapelo]

Justin very unsure and hesitantly: "Handshake...?"

[@fraserdaniel3999]

Tom Holland undoubtedly won the conversation!

[@northernlight8857]

How come?

[@fraserdaniel3999]

Because he showed that the Christian monks preserved the work of the ancients, Grayling didn't have a good come back on that.. did the Christians borrow from the ancients? Absolutely! He showed that it has been the continuing reforming of the church that has led to human rights and values as we know it. It's true that the anti-slavery movement was predominantly Christian. I agree with Grayling in that enlightenment is good and needed but enlightenment _alone_ doesn't make a good society. It's faith seeking understanding. It's having a Bible in your hand and learning as much history, philosophy, and science on the other hand :)

[@joelrodriguez1232]

@@fraserdaniel3999 l would just add that even enlightenment itself is a ripple effect from Christianity. Paul-> papal revolution -> reformation-> enlightenment.

[@fraserdaniel3999]

@@joelrodriguez1232, true, but I think the Christmas community needs to realize the importance of enlightenment. In America at least, there's a lot of fundamentalism that denies a lot of science and is unwilling to progress with the society in terms of empowering women.

[@joelrodriguez1232]

@@fraserdaniel3999 yeah that's definitely true.

[@kwall1464]

Thanks for sharing!

[@NunoMontezSilveira]

Great content!

[@marketgarden22]

I have so much respect for Tom!

[@davidgroves8413]

Closed on Sunday you my Chikfla

[@kevincasson9848]

You sir! Should be given a major tv debate programme!!

[@kevincasson9848]

Thankyou so much! I couldn't do nò worse, than the majority of intellectually challenged, deluded indoctrinated imbecilic apologist. Thanks for your comment!

[@kevincasson9848]

Thought i would reply to myself. As no one capeable of taking my intellect on😂😂

[@marcinkierzkowski2470]

1:01:30. CMON TOM!!

[@jacodelport]

This was an excellent debate! Recognising our views are shaped by our cultural inheritance is not the same as agreeing with the truth of those doctrines. The effect of Christianity on the western mind cannot be overstated. But it is for each age to use reason to decide what to make of its cultural inheritance.

[@jacodelport]

To make the link obvious - the first western humanists like Erasmus where Christian humanist scholars who were fusing ideas from the ancient Greek world with Christian ideas to create humanism.

[@thucydides7849]

If Alexander had not hellenized the ancient world to the extent that he did, do you think Christianity could’ve formed? It essentially would’ve had to be formed in a vacuum

[@careneh33]

What's your take on the cultural inheritance of Japanese society? Is it Christian too?

[@jobj2963]

@@careneh33 Japan is highly westernized in a secular sense, ever since the Meiji restoration, so yeah. But with China, I would agree that it has it's own inheritance of laws and morals. And so with Sri Lanka, India, and every other nation there is really.

[@konyvnyelv.]

If it wasn't for modernity, we'd still be burning witches

[@soctejedor-qh3kd]

3rd time to watch, and I'm still thankful for Tom for debunking just the few lines of Grayling's books. How many more myths are in Grayling's books there must be? But the book is out and not all people will read his book with proper historical lens and will take Grayling's book as is and be led astray.

[@HigherEdAdminPHD]

As a secular historian I have enjoyed reading histories of philosophy. I’ve enjoyed reading books by both Holland the Historian and Grayling the Philosopher. Both know history, and I’m glad they both take a secular perspective on history. I’ve enjoyed your channel. Bravado, dear lad.

[@tomking5855]

Brilliant debate

[@jcanevari]

I very much appreciate both Holland’s and AC Grayling’s temperaments - so much more civil and instructional than watching Dawkins or Farina and their cynical ad hominem attacks towards their opponents. I believe Holland makes the stronger (more evident) argument than Grayling, but overall a great discussion to hear.

[@randomuser6306]

Grayling condemns the sexual exploitation of slaves by Roman masters, even though the slaves themselves didn't think it was wrong. Grayling is somehow able to magically create a morality that is identical to that of Christianity, yet claims it owes nothing at all to Christianity. All with a straight face.

[@axemel]

There's no magic involved.

[@nakkadu]

I think it's the other way around. People have an inbuilt moral compass, and Christianity just takes credit for it.

[@nakkadu]

@@knowthycell nah....there are people who've never come into contact with Christianity but they still have morals.

[@nakkadu]

@@knowthycell no it shows how indoctrinated you are that you think people wouldn't have morals without religion.

[@nakkadu]

@@knowthycell ok then just so we're on the same page....what do you mean by "morals"

[@JL-ti3us]

I think there is something missed here about the influence of Christianity on different periods of time with seemingly contrary results; it is that the cultures who act upon the teachings of scripture, regardless of the religion or philosophy, add their own views and practice in their own methods that faith with what is in accordance and familiar with their own beliefs. Interpretation of scripture in any forms may easily be justified dependent on the terms of those interpreting it.

[@Lucharaqua]

So nice!

[@kbeetles]

Well argued, Tom! Reading Dominion at the moment - eye-opening, great work!

[@trianfullness]

Excellent debate. Well done to both.

[@skybellau]

Excellent discussion, thank you. Surprised that Tom found it so hard to acknowledge AC Grayling's reminder that christian ethics were influenced by much much earlier stoics and how quickly he bypassed the fact that christian ethics had failed to stop christians taking slaves until as late as the 19th century and all other manner of atrocities. Really worth listening to twice.

[@samuelmorales2344]

Holland is writer who writes about history which by de facto makes him a historian which gives him the advantage to find the earliest mentions and sources. Holland has found that indeed, the freeing of slaves is a moral precept of Christianity that caused Westerners to free the slaves and it is based on their understanding of the Bible which formed the basis of their morality. Stoicism in a lot of ways does resemble Christianity but the fact remains that Stoicism was the thing long passed to compel Westerners to free the slaves. Christianity was formed in a time where it had confluences if not deltas of influences. The most dominant was Judaic and Hellenistic influences. But ultimately, Christianity tracing back to the origins of the debates of slavery as a moral wrong not just considering slaves as equals, seems to be Christian.

[@glennsimonsen8421]

Okay, Skye, and what other world ethic managed to stop slavery? None whatsoever. Which religion put an end to slavery? Finally, it was Christians and none other.

[@viperstriker4728]

Much of what Grayling said about early America in regards to slavery was wrong. Tim Barton does a lot on the subject, so if you want to see what was wrong he would be a good source. If you get Barton in a live discussion he will hold up the actual record (or a replicate as he only owns so many) to provide a source every other sentence. To be frank correcting those errors about slavery and race would have gotten piled up in American politics so I don't blame Holland for brushing over it.

[@Sojourner24_7]

@1:17:00 That's simple, "love your enemies" !

[@xDirkandLisa]

I think the most controversial statement for this particular age(2020) came from justin in the end "Handshakes?" ;-)

[@markd5067]

I found this very interesting. My personal experience with Christianity ended about 10 years ago after 50 years of believing, half of that time deep diving into it's origins and subsequent expansion, resulting in my disbelief in the supernatural. It is more plausible, with much more evidence here on earth, that advanced extraterrestrial beings exist than that of supernatural beings. I think we have to evolve and grow in wisdom rather than stay shackled to old beliefs out of blind faith.

[@EnHacore1]

well Christians call these "advanced extraterrestrial beings" that you believe in God. So unless you believe 100% that everything in our universe came out of nothing without any intervention from "advanced extraterrestrial beings", then you aren't much different than a person believing in God. Would "advanced extraterrestrial beings" not be considered supernatural beings? (of course they would)

[@markd5067]

@@EnHacore1 only to the feeble minded

[@dm-gq5uj]

Do you have any idea of distances in space? If extraterrestial beings exist (there is absolutely no evidence of that) it would take them millions of years to reach us. And we will never reach them because we don't live long enough. Read Bill Bryson's book "A Short History of Nearly Everything" (and Bryson is not religious): the miracle is that life exists at all. There is no evidence that it exists anywhere else in our solar system or that if it does, it is past the stage of being just bacteria.

[@markd5067]

@@dm-gq5uj Ahh...the reply of human arrogance...the same thing that drives humans into the belief that we're too important to be here for no reason...

[@andrewclough660]

I'm nearing the end and fuck i am so glad i don't have to wonder what Tom will write or say next...