Bitcoin's Role in the War on Cash | Mike Green & Alex Gladstein

In this episode of On The Margin Mike is joined by Mike Green of Simplify Asset Management & Alex Gladstein of the Human Rights Foundation. Mike & Alex sit down to debate the role of Bitcoin from opposing angles, discussing wether a Bitcoin standard benefit the U.S, what is the role of Bitcoin for those living under authoritarian regimes, government response to Bitcoin, the war on cash, CBDCs, Stablecoins & the role of sound money in society.
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Meet with investors and financial industry leaders at the Digital Asset Summit in London, November 15 & 16. For a limited time, use code KZbin for £75 off your tickets. blockworks.co/events/das-london/
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Timestamps:
00:00・Introduction
01:06・The war on cash & the surveillance state
08:22・Currency as a means for control
13:45・Social engineering
23:55・Alexei Navalny's use of Bitcoin
29:48・The role of governments
36:46・The governments response to Bitcoin
39:46・Coinbase Prime Ad
41:01・Ledger Ad
42:25・CBDCs
48:43・Stablecoins
54:18・Could Bitcoin be beneficial for the U.S
1:01:40・Does sound money really constrict governments?
1:08:42・Should Bitcoin be taxed?

[@k1m625]

This was brilliant......respectful polite intellectual philosophical disagreement .....its so rare these days.

[@Kaodusanya]

Rare

[@BlockworksHQ]

Thank you! Glad you enjoyed

[@nfdisco3484]

I wouldn't call Gladstein an intellectual. He's more of a salesman, to be honest.

[@AliBooondok]

@@nfdisco3484 doesn’t sound like you know what Bitcoin is or does. In reality, you don’t even understand the current system.

[@nfdisco3484]

@@AliBooondok not really, I understand both the international monetary system and bitcoin fairly well

[@Jay-my7ko]

Finally a calm, intellectual, and non confrontational conversation with differing perspectives.

[@johnoconnor4624]

This interview was much better than the last one with Pomp. Alex holds keeps his cool and has much better points. Anthony Pomp is a bitcoin maximalist who can't stand an opposing view.

[@kurtjensen5798]

Agreed, I love Pomp but he is not an intellectual. A guy like Mike Green needs an equal on the other side. The debate with Nic Carter was great, and this was also great. I sympathise with Greens arguments, but lean more towards Gladsteins view points.

[@kurtjensen5798]

Yes, this interview + the one with Nic Carter vs Mike Green was good. The pomp one, and the Breedlove one were not good..

[@matthewshafer3970]

Wow! What a great discussion form both sides. I learned a ton from this discussion and kudos to both Mike & Alex for debating and respecting each other's position. Challenging each others ideas on an intellectual level is how we improve. Thank you Blockworks!

[@sandymilne224]

Mike Green needs to answer the question: ‘What’s wrong with currency competition?’ There currently is competition in the world, with the USD leading that competition. Also, Mike’s question “Do you think it should be taxable?” should have been answered by Alex in this way: Should the USD and holding dollars be taxable? No, earning income is taxable; asset appreciation or depreciation is taxable. Should the devaluation of the USD by money printing be a taxable loss for US dollar holders? If not, why should the Canadian dollar be taxable for US citizens that might hold some of it? Same with any other currency, including Bitcoin. If it is an asset, or if it is a currency, what is the answer there? Currencies are not taxable, income generation is. Therefore, Bitcoin should not be taxable. The debate should go to whether BTC is an asset or a currency. Clearly it’s both at present and it is clearly a currency with El Salvador making it a legal tender (currency).

[@jamesmontgomery8249]

The guests were easy but still , that was damn good moderation. You got out of the way and yet entered in the debate in an unassuming intellectually honest and personal way. Great show

[@c.p.1090]

Alex is a rare person. Well argued.

[@wciesiel]

An error in Mike's thinking is mostly US exceptionalism. USA is turning into a place people where running from when immigrating into US two centuries ago. And what's unacceptable - and kudos to stating blatant policy errors on US side - is that USA is using force (killing tens of thousands in Iraq for example) to defend it's monopoly over global payment system. From the perspective of ANYONE outside the US (I am Polish) this hegemony needs to be dismantled. USA is de facto financially colonizing most of the world by exporting inflation and seniorage income. It racketeers scarce natural resources of developing nations for printed paper and sends army under false pretenses - like Iraq in 2003 - to countries that try to exercise their sovereignty to exit the dollar system. This needs to stop and taking the payment system from full control of US Treasury is a sin equa non condition to keep USA in line.

[@martinlutherkingjr.5582]

That’s what governments do, it’s like telling a mouse not to eat cheese.

[@FarfettilLejl]

I wholeheartedly agree with you. It's a sign of our times that this topic is entering common discourse

[@johnlong123long]

"USA is turning into a place people where running from" - The USA just had one of its biggest influx of immigrants on record. What threat did Saddam pose to the Eurodollar system? do you even understand what the eurodollar is? if you did, you'd know the FED or USA govt have no control over it. I'm from outside the US and I dont think it needs to be dismantled.. what would fill the vacuum? China & Russia?? "It racketeers scarce natural resources of developing nations for printed paper" somebody should tell him what China is up to :D classic misinformed emotional rant!

[@johnbarrett5229]

And let's not forget Libya... another classic example of US imperialism whilst protecting USD hegemony. HegeMONEY

[@nfdisco3484]

The US has no monopoly on global payment systems. What on earth are you talking about?

[@mapleloopsong]

I think the problem is: Mike has never met people who suffer from inflation right now. Alex has.

[@BlockworksHQ]

I'm not sure if that's true. Mike is clearly concerned about the current state of affairs, he just has a different proposed solution. My takeaway as being the moderator was actually that Mike is... sort of more optimistic? He believes the solution can come from within the current system, whereas Alex believes that an alternative (Bitcoin) is necessary to create lasting change.

[@FarfettilLejl]

@@BlockworksHQ being optimistic that a deeply flawed system can be fixed is nothing to applaud. Alex is optimistic about the future because because he's optimistic about a new system that doesn't have these flaws

[@Avicena-tf5uj]

@@BlockworksHQ only solution the system could offer is a CBDC that is open source and backed by Gold reserves which are audited yearly by multiple 3rd parties and even foreign nations, and even with that it will be hard to convince people they won’t lie and abuse it.

[@themountain3461]

@@Avicena-tf5uj exactly. The more wealth is centralised, the easier it is to manipulate and abuse

[@k0zzu21]

@@Avicena-tf5uj The gold backing doesn't work, since it relies on trust to keep the backing. Bitcoin has fixed this issue.

[@Hawxxfan]

this video and the comments provide a lot of insight and intelligent thought in the otherwise thoughtless desert we call youtube

[@crazyd3uces]

Actually very refreshing to hear someone be critical of bitcoin and challenge the utopia sentiments we all know and gravitate to.

[@FarfettilLejl]

but just how good were his arguments? if that's the best bitcoin detractors have to offer, bitcoin is going to win

[@nickb863]

@@FarfettilLejl Mike Green is like the 2nd estate of the ancien regime. Maxis are like the radical jacobins. The coming conflict will probably result in a kind of stalemate and establishment of a 2nd republic.

[@megowopwop8545]

What a great chat. My takeaways. -Not being able to tax bitcoin is a real issue. Mike's suggestion to convince the govt to makes cbdc partially open-source and convince them to right the ship... I just can't see this happening.

[@AliBooondok]

Taxes are transfers of wealth and do not generate productive outcomes. Policy makers are terrible capital allocators. Do the math on how much wealth you lose over your life due to the insane amount of taxes you pay. You are taxed several times on your fiat money, not even including the inflation tax that you don’t even think about. Why do you think taxation is a good thing? You could do much more for your family and community with the millions stolen over your life time through taxes and inflation then the government will do.

[@megowopwop8545]

@@AliBooondok are you an anachist?

[@AliBooondok]

@@megowopwop8545 No. I see what you are trying to do, but you are off track. Taxes are not the deciding line between anarchy and rule of law. To suggest such a thing is a pathetic attempt at simplifying something you don’t comprehend about the world. Capitalism is about the freedom of capital movements based on human demand and needs. You can have capitalism without taxes. You can have rule of law without taxes. Taxes are an invention. A tool just like money. DAOs are the future and will replace taxes. A DAO is a decentralized autonomous organization. This will replace taxation and overall government influence. It enables communities to pool capital to accomplish goals that the community wants versus what some small number of “officials” decide.

[@sandymilne224]

Please read ALL of this. Most people would not agree with you. Ask yourself if Bitcoin is a ‘crypto currency’. Most would say yes. Some would say it’s an asset. Some others would say it’s both. If you hold Euros in the US, is there a tax on currency? No, there is a tax on ‘income, asset sales to the positive, investments etc. we don’t tax currencies. Generally we tax income. The definition of income is debatable of course. So, if Bitcoin is a currency - and clearly, El Salvador knows it is - it’s legal tender there; then Bitcoin should not be taxable. Now take the argument that currencies are an asset. If there is a monetary gain from selling Bitcoin and governments want to tax an increase in value, then there has to be a tax rebate for loss on the sale as well. If the Canadian dollar, or the Euro’s value drops against the USD and specifically when the Fed prints more dollars, should people be able to claim a loss? You can’t have it both ways. Either Bitcoin is an asset, as Michael Saylor says it is, or it’s a currency. It’s impossible to be both. That’s the dilemma that governments now have with Bitcoin being legal tender in El Salvador.

[@rjlane3475]

People just want FU money. That's the underlying argument in many of these debates.

[@pyorba]

I totally disagree with Mike Green. However the CDC is constructed, and however it’s protocols are determined, having the ability to “opt out“ of that system via bitcoin keeps the CBDC system honest.

[@roberthammer2335]

💯

[@megowopwop8545]

Yeah but being able to opt out is extremely dangerous for society aswell, he has strong points there. It is nice to think people will pay their fair share of taxes on a completely private btc standard. I'm a btcner but this is a question I can't find an answer too. We really need the govt to just produce sound fucking money.

[@Dashiki7467]

@@megowopwop8545 You are the government… take that as your duty and vote with your own money

[@megowopwop8545]

@@Dashiki7467 naive

[@Dashiki7467]

@@megowopwop8545 How do you think change really happens? By being cynical and slave to the system? Suit yourself The fact that you think we need to government to do this for us is naïve..

[@sahawndada]

Most respectful "debate" I have ever seen

[@emcardleinvest]

Great conversation between 3 smart dudes. More of this!

[@kh9242]

Well, two smart guys and one close minded boomer.

[@martinlutherkingjr.5582]

The host isn’t exactly sharp, the best thing he does is let his interviewees speak or parrot talking points from others. Overall this was a mediocre episode.

[@cainejackson8003]

Mike was an early btc holder who saw it's flaws and was brave enough to swim against the current.

[@cainejackson8003]

Mike was an early btc holder who saw it's faults and is brave enough to speak out. Concentrating wealth in btc whales isn't the solution to inequality.

[@sandymilne224]

Lightning changes that narrative. Now the poor can save in Bitcoin too.

[@czcbearsrule1]

@@sandymilne224 You are missing a large part of Mike's argument. If bitcoin is deflationary (meaning rises in real purchasing power) then rich people (with more bitcoin) will gain more wealth over time than poor people as they are compounding a larger base amount. This is similar to the stock market. Why did the rich gain a lot over the last 3 years vs. the poor? B/c they are holding more appreciating assets (stocks) than the poor.

[@ohsweetmystery]

The argument isn't about equality, it is about maintaining alternatives to centralized control.

[@kurtjensen5798]

No one claims it will solve inequality - but it will solve a multitude of other problems.

[@weaver03]

​@@czcbearsrule1 today you can get rich from buying assets and taking debt because inflation is raising assets and lowering real value of the debt. essentially, you got rich by knowing how to play the game but without adding any value to society. with hard money the idea is you only accumulate more wealth by adding value to society. taking debt will still occur, but it is not longer a free money hack because deflation makes it harder to repay. debt would mostly be used as an instrument for productive investment like buying a tractor to yield more crops rather than a tool to hoard non productive assets. therefore, any consumption redistributes the bitcoin back to people who work to provide products and services. I want a society where you become wealthy by producing more than you consume, not by owning 10 houses and borrowing money up to your neck.

[@boshkop]

Fascinating talk, we want part 2!!

[@cbeezy307]

This was an incredibly good interview. I was reminded several times throughout, of the ideas in Thomas Sowell’s book, a conflict of visions. We have been living in a world where the narrative of humans limits has been very weak. That is to say, an unconstrained vision of human society. What if now after living in that regime for so long, we are out of balance, now we need a constrained vision to help us reset our expectations and highlight our connectedness and reliance on one another (not to mention reliance on planet earth). Awesome discussion! My favorite bit was when mike asked about whether or not btc should be taxable.

[@FabianMoser]

Great talk. Thank you!

[@chathulamehdi557]

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[@vanessaanderson3604]

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[@whatsapp4196]

Poor people think about what they can buy with their money, rich people think about what they can invest in with their money.

[@warrikoo4448]

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[@donaldbrian1413]

I started my trade only with $10000, now my account is up over 400%, it's so intriguing to see someone else who benefitting from Michael Jeff's skills.

[@alexagrey989]

Crypto trading is exponentially more profitable than holding and investing. But the challenge is always getting a professional who can guarantee your trades, please kindly share more info on Michael Jeff

[@adityabirbal]

Great discussion!

[@cainejackson8003]

Wow mind opening. Mike you raised some points that challenged my thoughts on btc. There's possibly no such thing as perfect money.

[@martinhunter1187]

Bravo blockworks! Excellent content

[@chiph1841]

Mike Green is one very smart man.

[@simonroese2596]

Thanks for the value

[@BenWilkinsonBin]

Alex crushing it, as per usual.

[@888Philskill]

Alex is right, without freedom there can be no prosperity.

[@cappedvillain2522]

Mike was brilliant

[@jimuren2388]

The alignment of Australia with political freedom is open to debate ...

[@edawg654]

“There is absolutely no reason why we can’t do that!” Mike on the idea that there is no reason why USD CBDC cannot be used by individuals in foreign jurisdictions… THE HELL IS THIS GUY SMOKING

[@cdistasio]

Governments and private central banks have clearly proven themselves to be entirely ir-responsible with the monetary system and need to have that system stripped away from them. It is way too much power for any one human or group of humans to have power over. Money needs to be decentralized and it needs to be something where it becomes a neutral object in relation to government's where governments no longer have the power the violate the financial well-being of savers because of their irresponsible Behavior

[@roberthammer2335]

Exactly. I agree 100%. Mike is just wrong here. I don't understand where his American exceptionalism and his trust in government come from. No government on planet Earth has shown a reason to put trust in it, anywhere in the world, over the last 20 years. Given them unlimited control over money, a weapon for social engineering, is just pure insanity.

[@themountain3461]

@@roberthammer2335 especially since, as George Gammon puts it, the prestige and scope and size of government attracts the worst sociopaths

[@LukeDickerson1993]

Amen!

[@RightTailAngst]

I don’t know how many more of these debates I can watch. Mike crushes it every time. I keep waiting for a compelling Bitcoin argument but I still haven’t heard one that can hold weight.

[@advocate1563]

I'd love to know where mike green stands post recent events in canada

[@nichole2757]

Mike Greene argues backwards from his conclusions and that’s why I don’t trust his takes to be objective or from first principles

[@Avicena-tf5uj]

He is a statist and missed the btc train

[@alessandroparma4006]

Classic boomer that thinks in old, dismantled paradigms

[@k0zzu21]

@@alessandroparma4006 Bitcoin has exposed Mike Green. Likes to hide his lack of understanding under fancy words.

[@cainejackson8003]

Mike was a bitcoiner years before you lot! Dyor he has- don't just mindlessly follow today's trend, listen.

[@biscottigelato8574]

At least Mike Green moved on from “Bitcoin doesn’t work and will fail because China”, to “Bitcoin will undermine the US which is ‘the’ force for good” Not sure if he is naive or he is just defending his ego and position against Bitcoin. But fundamentally what he is arguing for is central planning over free market, albeit a ‘US led’ central planning. Which is incredible that he as a capitalist will take up such a position.

[@megowopwop8545]

You act like his points aren't valid. His narrative has changed because btc mining has become more decentralised, it was a legitimate concern. And I completely agree that we need to make sure btc doesn't undermind America and strengthens China Russia view on the world as this would suck right? People that disagree with Mike are often doing so because of their bag thesis.

[@AliBooondok]

@@megowopwop8545 ??? Open source, free trade, and access to information has scaled humankind more than any restrictive measures put in place by central authorities. USD was the opposition to Russia and China because it is more “free” than anything else. Now we have the most free form of value transfer in Bitcoin, which is the real source of advantage to freedom. Bitcoin will eliminate all the waste and bureaucracy in the system due to fiat currencies. Sure, a weakening dollar will help Russia and China in the short term. In the long term, BTC will unlock global freedom and put more pressure than you can ever imagine on the dictatorship populace. BTC is the only thing available to humans that unlocks absolute ownership and allows for true open and free trade.

[@megowopwop8545]

@@AliBooondok agreed, and I hope we are right. But there is a chance that btc undermines the US govt, as it does take a lot of their power away, Alex's argument around taxes isn't bulletproof. So, this transition could get ugly and potentially have a negative impact on the strength of us in the short term. And Mike is saying that we need to sharpen the current policies and correct this ship. Also I believe btc is here to stay, but who knows what the future holds, pow can be attacked.

[@AliBooondok]

@@megowopwop8545 Anything can be attacked. PoS is less secure and centralized. PoW is still the most secure option we have and it’s decentralized. One thing the American experiment has taught humans is that freedom advances our species beyond anything imaginable. Freedom of movement and information brings more productivity than closed systems. Bitcoin will push China out of developing nations and weaken China’s own currency.

[@PatrickN.]

Thanks for the interview. I love to get out of echo chamber and listen to opposing views. Mike Green is very intelligent and probably offers the best opposing views I've heard of anyone. I listened but still disagree with Mike on his forecast of bitcoin.

[@TaspatsLV]

BREAKING: cantillionaire doesn't like bitcoin. More at 11

[@cainejackson8003]

Btc creates cantillionaires- only it's he whose closest to the btc miner wins. Listen to Mike he's no fool and was a bitcoiner years ago.

[@c.p.1090]

Mike Green question would be same as in 1914 or 1970s. When you earn that gets tracked and you get taxed.

[@martinlutherkingjr.5582]

What I learned: BAMBOO UNDER YOUR FINGER NAILS

[@c.p.1090]

Mike Green please read The Bitcoin Standard that clearly outlines that Hoover was doing monetary easing way earlier than Roosevelt.

[@edreeves121]

The NAV of bitcoin has to be a negative number. Explain why it has value please if you disagree.

[@pyorba]

I don’t understand why the debaters framed this as an either/or scenario. Currently we have two systems functioning at the same time. Let people decide as both systems evolve: they can choose either CBDC, or bitcoin.

[@randallstephens1680]

Green just can't understand that the government will never act the way he thinks.

[@josephriba1597]

It is a compelling argument that the US system (at least in relative terms) has produced the "good guys" and it is not therefore wise to take steps that might weaken it while strengthening the power of countries that have not historically done so well with human rights. That is compelling! However I am reminded of the principle that says "never let the good in life keep you from the great". The weakening of the West is not a good starting point in this debate. Who knows if privately controlled money is the best thing for humanity? If control is not with the government then someone else probably has that control and why should I trust them more? That determination of whether private money is the "best thing for society" is however the correct starting point for the debate. Always do the "best thing". No process is "all good". I cannot agree that we should do the "wrong" thing by "controlling" private money so that the Western governments ( the USA) can continue to be the best of a bad bunch. If private money is ultimately the best thing for society even if it weakens the USA then it should be permitted. It is hard to imagine that it would be catastrophic for the West but if that is a likely outcome then by definition it is not good for society. The west may move from good, back to great, if it takes a risk. So far so good.

[@josephriba1597]

BTW great debate. great work Blockworks!

[@patricebaumel]

You underscored Mike’s biggest flaw: his lack of imagination or faith that ‘great’ is possible. He’s a realist. Realism has never shifted paradigms.

[@k0zzu21]

Except the entire classification between private and public is flawed. The US dollar is not public money and Bitcoin is not private money. The dollar is issued by private banks and controlled by a pseudo-public entity. The public has zero control on the dollar. Bitcoin is totally open source and anyone can contribute to the ecosystem, use it as they wish and build applications on top of it.

[@ohsweetmystery]

Mike Green seems to equate social experiment with social engineering. One is loose and generally democratic, the other is absolutely structured and directed from the top down.

[@jasongrig]

i am very surprised by how much Mike is trying to defend state powers. wow

[@martinlutherkingjr.5582]

The host seems to think the US government is his buddy and would never hurt his feelings.

[@jimperkins9661]

Fascinating discussion. Burn it down vs. work to improve it. And why I am generally of the mindset that "it is not government per se that is bad, rather it is bad government that is bad" in this debate I side with Alex that the optionality is crucial to holding governments accountable. I also agree that "you can't stop it." Because it is not physical based, it is in no way comparable to gold. Finally Mike (Green) it is not a sound argument to assert supply side hocus pocus that "sure billionaires (trillionaires?) are winners under the current system but feeding the horses did insure the sparrows also got some oats."

[@joeface03]

"In 10 years cash won't exist anymore" Wrong.

[@jaygatsby1]

Mike was dead wrong about China and bitcoin. On to the next reason.

[@chesster5981]

Was he? 😂

[@CheKohler]

Mike should try giving up his wealth and try living in a 3rd world country and see how his “expertise” helps him build a living under monetary policy he likes so much Easy to talk when you don’t have to deal with the reality

[@nichole2757]

Yeah he’s definitely got a privilege bias and chooses not to acknowledge the value in a trustless system because he’s never been impinged by the current one

[@DennisRay99]

Mike is a brilliant man. Not sure what you're problem with him is.

[@jimperkins9661]

@@DennisRay99 Not with him. With his idea that the only trustworthy source of ultimate goodness is the United States government as expressed in its monetary policy.

[@CheKohler]

I have no problem with Mike personally his work on index funds are great! I am from a developing country so I think I have more experience than he does on how the 80% of the world live and operate and his got clear blinders on To think governments should be issuers of currency because of positive externalities that are only applicable to the US is a major reach The rest of the world has opinions, Labour, skill and would like to be able to monetize and amplify it same as the US and that’s not going to happen without apolitical money

[@tomasfontes3616]

I think Alex is overly optimistic about BTC being safe from regulation by powerful governments in the future while Mike is overly optimistic in benevolent CBDCs just because they're issued in a free country like the US. All in all, awesome debate (only watched it more than two years after its release).

[@joema7284]

Feel sorry for Mike for not recognizing the importance of bitcoin. Now he's ego won't let him admit he was wrong. Also feel sorry for Alex who had to sit through this and explain the same points over and over again to someone who's not listening.

[@kh9242]

Mike Has already been destroyed: "The Best Bitcoin Debate Ever Recorded (Anthony Pompliano vs Mike Green)" kzbin.info/www/bejne/sHKYm6GBadtrbpY

[@christopherpbatty2138]

Mikes intellectual island gets smaller each debate. He can’t even lay down down now, has to stand the whole time. Wouldn’t be as much fun to watch if he wasn’t such a horses ass

[@megowopwop8545]

@@kh9242 lol mike definitely beat pomp. You don't know enough if you think he lost that

[@XxChuyoxX]

@@megowopwop8545 yeah because pomp is a moron. Not because Bitcoin is insufficient.

[@sandymilne224]

Mike know the importance, he is just asking Alex to not inflame governments with his language. There is a need for ‘smoothing’ by politicians to get elected framed within the idea that income distribution should be slightly more equal. That’s the sovereign right of governments generally - not exclusively. But one needs to remember, that a sovereign needs to print more money as the population grows, or there would be a shortage of fiat. That would be very bad for the poor and the newborn and immigrants. HOWEVER, mass printing of fiat, makes inflation and the impoverishment of it’s citizens - which is tantamount to treason.

[@gwills24]

If we are calling this a debate, and there is a winner and a loser, Mike ran circles around Alex. I learned alot from Alex, but Mike's views are significantly more convincing to me.

[@XxChuyoxX]

Mike makes the poor arguments and has to reiterate the point he's trying to make. He didn't run circles around anything.

[@sandymilne224]

Actually, Mike is simply asking Alex not to mash the government’s face into the issue that Bitcoin will win. One person’s weapon is another person’s ‘persuasive tactic’. An incentive is distinct from a disincentive. The right of sovereigns to ‘smooth perceived or real economic injustices’ may be there in reality and is legitimate, but the printing of money, debasing it by one’s own government is an act of treason. Print money for an increasing population, yes. Only then. But debasing a sovereign currency, making the poor even poorer is considered treasonous behavior by many. Bitcoin creates competition in currencies, which no one would argue that is currently going on with the UDS and the RMB. Bitcoin just adds to that competition. And competition is good, right?

[@ohsweetmystery]

You believe the US government is a force for good? Green begins his arguments from a completely false platform.

[@gwills24]

@@sandymilne224 there is a reason why we evolved to soft currencies, hard currencies are terrible for economic expansion. Some of the poorest people in the US are living better lives than the richest people did even 50 years ago, yet you are upset about USD buying less gold than it used to. Who cares?

[@gwills24]

@@ohsweetmystery democracy, freedom of speech vs authoritarianism

[@donherrington5771]

Please tell me more on how much it will cost to keep my milk purchases on the chain.

[@daledonovan9542]

Mike Green makes everyone sound like they were just passing by and, invited in, had to come up with something to say on the spot...

[@lukecashin]

Bitcoin is not anonymous.

[@ohsweetmystery]

I wonder if Mike Green has changed some of his Pollyanna views on the freedom of the West after the Canadian truckers asset freeze and the censorship now being inflicted by companies like Patreon and Paypal.

[@c.p.1090]

Mike you are trying to save a system that needs to die to get a version 2.0. Please dump your gold and your thinking will improve.

[@toroblanco5070]

I sympathize with Alex but, crypto and Bitcoin is only increasing wealth gap to reach the point of social explosion. Billionaires are becoming Trilionaires and middle class is gone into poverty.

[@themountain3461]

Fiat currencies aren't doing much better. Might as well join the rich before it's too late

[@k0zzu21]

Nothing is stopping anyone from joining the crypto economy. All the power to gain wealth is in the hands of the individual. There's no way to earn wealth than to endure momentary austerity, either through saving or hard work. No system can remove the pain of austerity before wealth.

[@sandymilne224]

That’s because the middle class hasn’t yet bought Bitcoin and Satoshis. Once they do, they will get richer.

[@c.p.1090]

Mike green if USA holds Bitcoin as a reserve then how does it undermine USA. Also what prevents others from not owning it. It like who grabs the weapons faster. Bitcoin is merely a technology. It can be used by the USA treasury to strengthen itself also. I think you have kinda of I missed it and hence no one should own. It is still very early Mike. Do dig deep into your motives and why you oppose Bitcoin. Bitcoin changes so many things. Including unwanted wars per HENRY FORD IN 1921. 💯 years ago.

[@hongkhamchittarath7224]

Let me added on to three of you I'll say this don't drag on it's wasting time do what you believe stay out if you don't believe in bitcoin simple is that.

[@PoppieFieldsForever]

Mike Green speaks of the United States as an object of religion. Absolute categorical terms, good vs. evil, no room for critical thinking.

[@royzac7829]

Totally agree, instead of understanding the process at play and how it coordinates human nature.

[@alessandroparma4006]

Statism is a cult!

[@yeliangarcia4623]

No one has a monopoly on truth. I'm amazed to see some of the comments on Mike (undoubtedly by bitcoin maxismalists). Mike Green has twice your education, three times your experience and four times your IQ, maybe show some respect before expressing yourself in such a manner. 1) Sound money achieved via different methods is a must for real economic growth and social cohesiveness, end of story. Sound money implies a degree of anonymity as desired by the user and a degree of decentralization and scarcity that is not defined by any one actor or economic agent

[@calibreentertainment5528]

No

[@k0zzu21]

I think you just described Bitcoin

[@yeliangarcia4623]

@@k0zzu21 Not quite, bitcoin and any of the other 12 000+ crypto currencies COULD in theory fit the bill...except the fact that there's 12 000+ sort of invalidates the idea of 'soundness'

[@k0zzu21]

@@yeliangarcia4623 No it doesn't. It's like saying fool's gold invalidates real gold.

[@yeliangarcia4623]

@@k0zzu21 What?? lol...there is ONE atomic number 79, there is not ONE miracle cryptocurrency, there's over 13, 000 now...go make me but ONE new element in periodic table, go ahead I'll wait

[@cliftonk]

The primary use-case of crypto is stablecoin lending and transfers. Bitcoin is credibly decentralized collateral that you can borrow credibly decentralized stablecoins against. It's all about dollars and always has been.

[@patricebaumel]

you are thinking way too small in my opinion. stablecoins are simply a transitional tool until bitcoin IS the stablecoin. training wheels that help us move away from a fiat standard towards an inflation-proof, censorship-resistent and trustless monetary system.

[@cliftonk]

​@@patricebaumel when an asset has a credible expectation to increase in value over time it can not serve as a means of exchange. It's value proposition is, essentially, as "pristine collateral." There is absolutely no reason to trade away your bitcoin when you can borrow against it. And so, as bitcoin increases in value, ever fewer people will trade it. It will almost certainly displace gold (which puts bitcoin at 500k), but the idea that it becomes the reserve currency of the world is bonkers. Mike Green goes into the historical analogies of gold and why it failed as a reserve currency as the global economy grew, and he articulates why it doesn't make any sense much better than i can.

[@patricebaumel]

Don’t you think that borrowing against btc also is transitional until the world has weened itself off of fiat currencies? We are eventually going to run out of lenders who, instead of lending out fiat and accept to be on the losing side of this trade, would simply convert it to bitcoin themselves. This will happen the more risk and volatility leave the btc market. Longterm, btc will simply eat all fiat currencies as demand for them vanishes. Financial darwinism. At that point, there won’t be any currency left that btc can appreciate against and all increases in purchasing power will come from deflation induced by techological advances (Jeff Booth). Everybody will benefit. That’s how I see the best case scenario end game. BTC being infinitely divisible and movable at light speed will be a better currency than gold.

[@cliftonk]

@@patricebaumel btc is superior to gold in most ways and will almost certainly replace it for most use-cases, but if you think btc will displace fiat currencies then you are watching too much youtube.

[@patricebaumel]

In a free market, fiat currencies including cbdc’s cannot compete with bitcoin in the long run. for them to survive it would take continuous state intervention. how long do you think the dam is going to hold? superior technology has a track record destroying inferior competition. i’d like to hear how you see them survive alongside each other? consumers will always gravitate towards what benefits them most.

[@c.p.1090]

BITCOIN PROVIDES GUARD RAILS 💂‍♀️ 🚞

[@patricebaumel]

Mike Green is a very eloquent debater who is a master at dodging uncomfortable questions and disguising holes in his arguments. Unfortunately, Alex was far too intimidated and could not have sounded less convincing. Two reasons why this discussion did not live up to the very high Blockworks standards.

[@FarfettilLejl]

I guess you were hoping for more of a Jerry Springer type of debate

[@patricebaumel]

no, i was hoping for alex to call mike out on how a digital dollar would solve the problem of inflation, amongst other things. this discussion should have been more high level than it was, not less.

[@n1mbusmusic606]

store it on a wallet! your missing the ENTIRE point if you dont hold your own private keys! geez that commercial sickened me!

[@Chitoalf88]

What I do not get with BTC advocate is the lack of comtrol of who is in-charge? While the US (or largely the West) is not perfect, it is still the only place where the rule of law rules - imperfect, but it is the best place to invest because of its system. This is from someone who has lived in a coutry ruled by martial law. The thought that the public will abide by their individual rule to look only for their own interests does not currently exists.

[@n1mbusmusic606]

monero...

[@shisduhos5682]

mike breen> mike green

[@jasongrig]

Mike is naively optimistic about the US CBDC and the freedoms it might allow. Shockingly naive. Does he seriously think the FED would have a direct banking relationship with someone in El Savador? The US does not want that anyway.

[@ReVoltAgefilms]

Mike Green, "The US is a force for good." LOL! Which nation has started most of the conflicts in the world since 1945?

[@c.p.1090]

Australia 🇦🇺 is a totalitarian state today. 😂

[@looper1112]

good to see mike still has the blue tint dialed to the max

[@oli2805]

It's ludicrous to say Bitcoin weakens the US just look a the amount of liquidity in USD pegs there is. This is in essence Bitcoin backing the US dollar as much as it is USD backing Bitcoin.

[@colinallcars5239]

Mike is ridiculously smart but it's becoming apparent that he's all about "USA Uber Alles". Too bad, I'd love to have him on team BTC.

[@edreeves121]

Ten minutes in and just blab. Let's get some reasons in why bitcoin has value.

[@Jorhan]

Mike Green looks like he grew up on Arrakis

[@b_gobo]

Mike Green makes good points but I think the world has moved on from his 'big control' position. The world has become more complex and any big control moves come with bigger consequences than previous decades. Just like wars, it's very unlikely we will see another Iraq. It would take something with much larger stakes. Control and benefit from BTC by allowing freedom to do it's thing and embrace it so the US has the largest BTC flows and infrastructure.

[@mikexhotmail]

it's very unlikely we will see another Iraq. ^_^

[@aekajimasala5879]

India is biggest democracy in the world, what you talking about authoritarian??? You don't know thing which is going on in india

[@patricebaumel]

democracy in name only, like most. covid has smashed that illusion convincingly.

[@aekajimasala5879]

We celebrate democracy, we only have 75 year old of history of democracy, most people really don't understand it , but as education Will improve democracy will strengthen its root..Watch newton (a bollywood movie) to see how part of india which is left behind in time are fighting to accept democracy. Its big country with lots and lots of issue but people here understand their history and take proud in it. india Will be one of the strongest democracy... After all we took most of our idea about democracy from British.

[@Exodia]

OlympusDao

[@andrewviersen7418]

If the global citizenry were well versed in bitcoin, do you honestly think Hillary Clinton would have taken out kadafy ?

[@gjamc]

It's disingenuous to point out the increase in purchasing power vs a few decades ago, especially for stuff like flat screen TVs. This purchasing power increase is mainly due to technology development and improvements in manufacturing, which drives prices down. If we didn't have monetary debasement, our purchasing power for those things would have increased _more_!

[@czcbearsrule1]

Except for the fact that one of the drives for technological development is due to investors knowing that their cash will be inflated away if it is not deployed to develop these technologies. Where does Sony get money to create flat screen TVs? If you know that your money (btc) will have real increases in purchasing power, then you will invest less.

[@johns4412]

US exceptionalism is something that belongs in the movies. It is no longer capable of executing and has deteriorated into a kleptocracy

[@MrReconjon]

I love Mike's passive market hypothesis and believe it's absolutely correct. However I'm convinced that he has lived the past 20 years in his little rich boy neighborhood with his connected rich boy friends and as a result is massively detached from the real world. It's evidenced regularly by his revisionist history and his reading of current world events. Just because .gov polices have treated your clique well doesn't mean that it isn't destructive to others in your own country. Much less the rest of the world.

[@ohsweetmystery]

Well said.

[@c.p.1090]

Mike Green is now about wealth taxes. So what is different from today Mike. Why are you asking questions that sound like Janet Yellen.

[@seriouslyyoujest1771]

My state has been paid taxes for me for years, I don’t know. This year because of mandated shut downs, and a wife, I liquidated Sam. My state for the first time I have some tax revenue from myself. It’s only fair, they give me free medical every year.

[@atthemoney]

To me the contradiction lies in the claim that Bitcoin will be a hedge against catastrophic government failures and/or overreach and the belief that government won't use state power to target bitcoin owners to circumvent the safeguard offered by blockchain technology.

[@seriouslyyoujest1771]

“ The wealth of the nation isn’t printing money. It’s in your factories, farms, and services provided”. Vijay Boyapati America can I had declined Hodl’ed to that equation. China cannot. Good riddance

[@andregagnon7044]

go to a bitcoin conference you have a shit load of the whales in one room!

[@enriquedacostacambio]

the ultimate fight: an 80% statist vs a 40% statist 💤💤💤

[@tommyt1785]

Mike instinctively doesn't like Bitcoin because of how much it's outperformed him this past decade. He believes he's the smart one, he understands the markets better than everyone and therefore should be making the most money. The fact that normal work a day plebs can just buy Bitcoin and outdo him irritates the guy to no end. Mike's a fund manager and an expert at that game. The plebs are playing a different game. The Bitcoin game is a fundamentally superior game to which the rest of the world are slowly gravitating towards. Mike's time is nearly up and I think he knows it. His anti Bitcoin stance is pure cope.

[@dlukton]

My theory on Mike Green is that he knows that it's a great investment. But what would happen to his own income... and his own stature within the financial community.... if he told all of his clients to just sell everything and put all the money into bitcoin?

[@yeliangarcia4623]

@@dlukton Mike is too smart and experienced to allocate 100% of investable assets into anything or recommend such non-sense...

[@dlukton]

@@yeliangarcia4623 OK, so you think that Mike Green is being honest in his criticism of bitcoin. I harbor deep suspicions that he is not.

[@yeliangarcia4623]

@@dlukton Whether he is being honest or not doesn't quite matter as the fundamentals of his view are just that, fundamentals...and fundamentals don't depend on anyone's motives. But since you insist, I will say that Mike has little to no incentive to simply talk out of his ass and that is certainly not his modus operandi. I assure you he is not emotionally invested in anything, specially not any one of over 10 000 crypto currencies. Mike could end up being proven wrong in a variety of ways but that doesn't mean that some private sector crypto currency wins. The sentiment behind crypto and decentralized money is rock solid and morally superior flat currency backed up by various forms of the State Theory of Money...but we don't live in a world where moral superiority rules the day just like that (I wish we did but that is just some fantasy, some dream that may or may not be realized)

[@k0zzu21]

@@yeliangarcia4623 Mike is emotionally invested in US exceptionalism. He is ignorant to the rest of the world not exactly enjoying the US hegemony. That also explains why he is intellectually dishonest with Bitcoin. It undermines the US hegemony, even though he knows it would lead to more just and efficient monetary system.

[@wilson097]

Hallo from Germany. Just looked the Word "indigineous" up. from Mike. Yes, he is. You simply See it. His Face and eyes Tell this.

[@FarfettilLejl]

Mike Green is wrong on so many levels, it's painful to listen. Alex Gladstein, as always, absolutely brilliant. Thank you Alex for all the amazing work you're doing

[@aladdinsane3523]

Someone trusts the government too much.

[@wedgecharger]

Has anybody EVER changed any of Greens ways of thinking ? If not then why talk to him ?

[@BlockworksHQ]

I like inviting Mike on the show because even if I don't agree with everything he says, he consistently makes me think about things differently. Credit to Mike for introducing me to Ole Peters, if you haven't looked into him I would recommend it.

[@nichole2757]

@@BlockworksHQ he’s a rent seeker who uses familiar language to manipulate facts into fitting a narrative he benefits from upholding

[@mikerinaldi7170]

@@BlockworksHQ I agree, 100%. I really appreciate what you're doing at Blockworks

[@kh9242]

It's hard to change the mind of some one that is completely convinced they are right.

[@matthewshafer3970]

@@BlockworksHQ Exactly! He wants people to be involved and fix the system that made us great. That is noble. Problem is we are apathetic as a nation. Great interview team.

[@StCloud-dp3eh]

Mike makes so much more sense than Alex.

[@bahmak2003]

Lol 😂 what you mean?😂😂😂

[@Brian-vk1hm]

Salty nocoiner.

[@nichole2757]

Confirmation bias is a disease

[@mlscaramouche]

I think you watched a different debate.

[@teardropsonmyfallen]

Alex stuttering alot in this one