Is Burnishing with Glue Just as Good as Tokonole?

[@bbrachman]

You should keep these test pieces around and see how flexible they are after a few months. Tokonole remains flexible. Elmers may or may not get stiff and crack. Seen that happen on non leather crafts. Same thing about Oil paint and Acrylic paint. Age treats them differently.

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

I'm definitely going to be keeping them around and maybe doing a few more experiments haha. I've had a few people reach out with ideas.

[@markolson7877]

great point

[@V3leathercraft]

The syntetic wax for shining and resin for water resisting hardness also makes tokonole special.

[@Handles-R-Lame]

All tokonole is, is gum tragacanth mixed with a wax and resin. Not a whole lot different the gum trag from tandy and a wax block.

[@AlexanderMason1]

@@Handles-R-Lame nope. Definitely nothing to do with gum tragacanth.

[@rockymountainman]

THANK YOU!! from a guy that ate a lot of white glue, it sure smelt and looked the same

[@calmontgomery8499]

When I first started leather craft I used Elmer's white glue mixed with a bit of water. It worked fine and is still flexible 6 months later. But for the cost of tokonole it makes sense to just by it. Tokonole is also more consistent than mixing glue with water in my experience

[@alexdiehl3367]

Your glitter art project earned an instant subscribe!

[@Handles-R-Lame]

I think if you watered down the Elmer's Glue you'd have a lot better results(not so sticky) and maybe even following up with a wax coat and burnishing that into the fibers. Should get you a good nice looking edge I think. P.S. since we're on the topic. I have this stuff called "emulsified wax" or "Emulsion of Wax" I forget what the exact wording is but anyways i feel if you were to mix that with Elmer's you'd make a great burnishing cream( maybe even better than tokonole?! 🤑). I got the wax Emulsion from Frog Jelly Leather in Texas over the internet. Alone it's not too bad as a wax. But by itself it's literally _very liquidy_ and needs something to add to its viscosity so I may just try adding some Elmer's to it! Lol random I know. Good video, clear and concise and straight to the point!

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Oh! Thank you! I'm definitely going to look into that stuff!

[@rehanb637]

I bet the silicone is what makes the Tokonole so easy to work and also why you see a few suggestions of adding hair conditioner with majority of popular conditioners are mostly silicone (to make your hair feel silky) it’d check out.

[@maxxxmineschanel4356]

Thank you mate, I'm only starting at leatherworking, but this is really helpful. Cheers mate, best wishes from Ukraine

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Thanks for watching!

[@TylrVncnt]

There is PVA glue in Tokonole, just like Elmers, but there are so many different formulations of a PVA, it can be tailored to be stiff and hard, or even flexible. They are obviously completely different products. Ppl who can’t see this idk how to help you lol, would you say the same about CA glues? Like water thin super glue or a thick CA glue, flexible CA glue, they are all different for different applications even tho they are all technically cyanoacrylates… and on that riff, Tokonole is literally formulated for leathercraft, Elmers is obviously not

[@DailyRiot]

Add wax, something like Jojoba wax, and to thin it out, use glycerol and I think you will get Tokenole. I plan on doing this after hearing the ingredients. The difference was it wasn't as thick as the glue, and it had a way higher shine, which adding the wax should take care of.

[@lyndacarlson7660]

Very interesting. I'm just starting in leather craft and recently opened a jar of Tokonole and my first thought was how much it smells like glue. Hmm

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

That's everyone's first thought when they first open it haha

[@debmackie385]

Awesome comparison! I've wondered about Tokonole since the first time I smelled it--this smells like Elmers! Been loving Tokonole, glad to know it's worth it.

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

It definitely is! Thank you for watching!

[@polosandoval]

Elmers glue is a type of PVA or Polyvinyl Acetate adhesive. Would be interesting to see if moisture would affect the Elmer’s or Tokonole the same. Cheers

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

I'll do some more playing around with it for sure

[@sbornot2b]

So thin the glue with some water and test it.

[@orion7741]

simple answer, NO. but its not "simple". it is very very similar to PVA glue (elmers white glue), BUT it has more additives in it as well. they are acrylic based additives. that is what gives it the hardness that it has, while straight up glue never truly hardens up. If you could add in enough acrylic hardeners to PVA glue, then you could get something very similar to tokonol.

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Haha I might try making my own at some point just for the hell of it

[@tankermanjake]

I started laughing waaaay before you put the glitter on it 😂😂

[@Gator-357]

Elmer's and other school glues are made from casien, which is derrived from milk and are nontoxic, which is why they are used in schools. Other white glues or "pva" glues are made with polyvinylacetate and are supposedly nontoxic also.

[@stevecollins2770]

Elmer's well known ingredient is polyvinyl acetate, aka PVA glue. It is also well known that "carpenter's glue" is PVA glue plus Resin, which is what turns it yellow.

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Thank you for this!

[@marcpilote2505]

Another great video! And I'm sure Elmers may seal some leather type better then tokenole. Maybe another video idea? 😊

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Thanks, Marc! Haha maybe I'll have to keep playing with the glue.

[@wehaveasaying]

Elmer's white glue is PVA (polyvynil acetate (sp?)), some thickeners, water, and titanium dioxide (makes stuff white). But you said Tokonole is paste and wax. Paste is water, flour, sugar, alum, and something to keep bugs away like clove oile or (Elmer's Paste) spearmint oil.

[@dieuxroux]

You're not ready for this one. I'm a pro pool player and the tip we use at the end of the pool cue is made of leather. Layered or laminated leather to be more exact. What glue is used between the layers? No clue. Anyway, when we finish the installation, we burnish the sides of the tip - usually that's made with the cue spinning on a lathe. Most old school cue makers use a little bit of spit (or water) and a leather piece to final burnish the sides of the tip. It absolutely leaves a slick, mirror-like finish, but since the cue often comes in contact with the pool table cloth, the burnished barrier doesn't last much time and the tips tends to fluff up. What would you, dear leather experts, recommend for burnishing the sides of the tip so it last as long as possible. Thanks for your consideration :)

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

This is interesting! I didn't even know those were leather! Let me dig into this and get back to you.

[@dieuxroux]

@@BlackFlagLeatherGoods Have you had the time to look into it?

[@TheHomeMaker1]

Mix the glue 3:1 with distilled water 3 parts white glue 1 part distilled water and it works great!

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

I'm going to try that!

[@blackbear9326]

Excellent video mate… just starting out on my leathercraft hobby… so something else I’ve learned…. Cheers 🇬🇧

[@beijingbikinibottom]

I’ve never heard this comparison, nor has the thought crossed my mind. However, reading the video title caused some concern! Glad you could solve the mystery.

[@wh0tube]

Thank our 🙏 can you please do a tokenole vs pva glue as beard grooming products? 😁👍

[@austinknowlton1783]

Just discovered your channel. I've done some leather crafting before, never lost interest just got overwhelmed with other things. Anyway, I am getting back into it and found this video interesting. I pretty much have followed saddle shop techniques and the only thing I've burnished with is water and saddle soap. Not a bad result but not up to the results you are getting. Got me rethinking things a bit. What do you think of the idea of watering down the Elmer's and adding some wax? Might be more expensive than just buying Tokonol for all I know but if not I think it might be worth a try.

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Thanks for watching! I'm definitely looking into adding a few things and making my own. I actually spoke with whoever runs the @Tokonole Instagram account and they confirmed that the type of glue used in Elmer's (PVA) is the same kind of glue in Tokonole. I have kind of a short list of things to try adding but it's definitely going to take some trial and error.

[@Martin-pb7ts]

Really surprised by your approach. You say that maybe they're both just white glue but proceed to use them for burnishing and DON'T try to glue anything with them? That is kinda weird.

[@chrisfournier6144]

PVA comes in many formulations. Most of the stuff you buy dries hard and will crack/break if stressed. No thanks.

[@SianaGearz]

I would think white glue has at least 3 ingredients. 1. Water. Suspension medium, keeps all the polymer molecules apart so they don't tangle into each other, because that would in fact be a solid. 2. PVA (polyvinyl acetate), that's the glue. Probably leaning on the shorter molecular weight side, more towards 10k than 100k i would think, i don't know. 3. PVOH (polyvinyl alcohol), that's also a glue, but it's less strong and just helps keep PVA in suspension rather than settling down in the water. There shouldn't be much of it. It wouldn't at all be surprising that the glue component of your burnishing compound contains some mixture of the same glue ingredients. I think the feel of white glue can be improved by diluting it with more water to make it less sticky. Wax and water don't mix. To mix them you need an emulgator. You might try some sort of skin cream which contains lanolin or lecithin, and in fact lecithin should suspend in white glue better. Though wasn't Nivea formulated as a synthetic analogue to the skin wax found on the skin of sheep? Lanolin is specifically the emulgator compound they isolated out of sheep. So well something like that could bring you another step closer to the desired properties of your burnishing compound. It's just a deliberation and i take no responsibility. I have not tried any of this.

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

I really appreciate this! I'm saving this comment for later!

[@timsanders4621]

Fiebings super sheen works aswell.

[@tranmic4016]

White glues is polyvinyl Acetate, brand to brand etc prang generic store brands , some better quality process to others, Elmers wood glue is the same with a color indicator. Earlier Wood glues had saw dust to create better bind between wood pores between pieces but the need was no longer necessary as PVA became the standard than earlier ingrediants were caustic and toxic. That being said people add saw dust to elmers anyway because it increases bonds between wood better anyway. Elmers is not unique to other white glues Tany's water soluble Eco-Flo leather cement is very similar in quality all depends on a porous surface for a bond. If you need a budget to leather adhesive Elmers is great for a waterbased alternative.

[@Esuper1]

50/50 glue and water. Add 25% carnouva wax. Works great.

[@therealsidehustle]

Wow Great Stuff!! You are one big dude! you make that Sm7 Mic look tiny. Keep it up

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Haha thank you! 🙌

[@boneandburnishleathergoods]

I'd be curious what would happen if you thinned out the glue with a bit of natural oils or even just some Walter if the burnishing would come out a little crisper?

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Definitely something I'm going to try!

[@TacumaGamba]

Should've added water to make it the same consistency...

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

I'm definitely going to revisit this. I've received quite a few suggestions.

[@jimspc07]

So mix elmers with silicone glove hand cream to dilute the stickiness and its all good?

[@chrishayes9855]

Elmer's = Polyvinyl acetate, Polyvinyl alcohol, and Propylene glycol. Other brands may be slightly different, but most "white" glue is a type of PVA (PolyVinyl Acetate) glue. Most SDS (previously called MSDS) will only list "hazardous" chemicals. Unfortunately, the exact same chemical can have different common names. I always look for the CAS number specifically. The following will seem overkill, but i airbrush a lot of different paints. So knowing exactly what is in not only the paint, but whatever im using to clean up afterwards is very important. Acrylic, enamel, laquer, etc. Even the same "type" of paint can be different between brands. I actually have a binder (yeah, I'm THAT guy) with each product SDS as well as an SDS of each component of the product. So product A, component 1, 2, 3 - product B, component 1, 6, 8. Massive overkill in most situations, but I've learned a lot from doing it.

[@reaper42469]

Dude you should water down the glue 50/50

[@user-jo5fz8iw3b]

SOOOO IN OTHER WORDS - ITS ELMERS GLUE WITH WAX/BEESWAX IN IT

[@jims.2514]

I've seen comments here with suggestions about using wax, silicone, and even hand lotion mixed with Elmer's glue. A couple of commenters mentioned that Elmer's might crack after a few months. Two things I haven't saw mentioned are Aleens tacky glue or fiebings leather weld, and glycerin. Both Aleens tacky glue and Fiebings leather weld are formulated to flex with fabric or leather. I have an old casing recipe from way back in the day that used glycerin as an agent to help the swivel knife glide through leather easier. I have been considering adding some to tacky glue or leather weld, and giving that a try. I would think either formula would work well with chrome tan, as both would have a good glue to bind the fibers, and the glycerin would act as a lubricant and polish.

[@Brbiker]

What the method for that 👀

[@pepleatherlab3872]

Crafting tip: Yes I'm a big fan of Tokonole,..accept when it comes to fatty chrome XL made projects (where it's ineffectual.) The high levels of fat, wax and oils makes those edges a beast to burnish, unless you bind them up with,..you guessed it,..Elmers glue. Crazy right? But it's true. Grab a piece of Chrome XL and see for yourself. Be sure to use edge dye before applying. Happy crafting everyone! 🍺 Cheers!

[@Stevieboy7]

Problem is the lack of stretch/flex in white glue. It will crack over time and be very problematic.

[@pepleatherlab3872]

@@Stevieboy7 Usually I'd agree, but chrome XL is so saturated with fats, getting it to crack would be quite the task. You'd have to rub it down with salt to get the edges that dry. I usually water my Elmers down before application. Looking for 'firmness' rather than binding strength on the edges. There are other glues that can be used instead, but I've not had great success with them. Most cements like Barge tend to leave more of a gummy mess than a firm edge and are impossible to burnish. All that said, if one has the patience, Uniter's primer then Edge paint is a great alternative. If I recall, Corter Leather did a video on this topic a few years back and recommended the same. (shrugs)

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Interesting... I've had no problem using Tokonole with Chromexcel... Maybe not every variety of Chromexcel is exactly the same?

[@bitofclay]

A very informative video. I’m considering making a mixture of 90% glue, 5% melted bees wax, and 5% water. 🤔

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Oh I'd be really interested in how it works out!

[@markolson7877]

Ohhh, please update your findings and results

[@dim4188]

Glue, water and hair shampoo (actually not shampoo. Conditioner). Try this alchemist's potion)

[@aliikizkaya]

My formula is%%80 White Glue(book binding Glue) %10 Water %10 Neutrogena Hand Cream For Dry Skin(Because iı contains Water. Thats all. Last 5 years. Works well😃 Apply this formula with your finger and wait until dry. Shines it self. No cloth or burnishing wood for final phase.😃

[@scottmasson3336]

Tokonole has glue, wax and silicone in it according to the MSDS.

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Indeed. I mentioned that in the video.

[@scottmasson3336]

I was skipping through it a bit but I got the results. Sorry Scotland were playing an important soccer match and won after being the underdogs. I promise to pay more attention next time, sir! 🧙‍♂️

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

No worries at all man. I do the same thing.

[@pirwothart3547]

This was so helpful, hitting the sun bottom right away. Thanks man!

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Thanks for watching!

[@paulocosta4320]

Wend you say white glue ,is white glue for wood?

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

I mean white glue like the stuff kids use for crafts. PVA glue to be precise. I think would glue is PVA with added ingredients.

[@BunyaminSalman]

Hi. Were you able to test the results afterwards? I wonder if the glue might have disintegrated or disintegrated. Also, did you use substances like CMC, Guar Gum and Gum Tragacanth? I tried CMC, the result is not bad.

[@TheAlgomalo]

The cheapskate in me wonders if it would work to add a little PVA glue and water to Tokonole to stretch it and make it a bit more economical.

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Haha I'll add that to my list of stuff to look inyo. I've had so many people reach out with ideas that stem from this video. I kind of made this as a joke haha

[@effydesk]

Very good analysis, bud!

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Thank you! I didn't realize you were on KZbin! Subscribed!

[@user-jo5fz8iw3b]

Thanks Tim, but I think for the difference in price (and many of us just to leather crafting for ourselves as a hobby), the difference in price between TOKONOL and Elmers type glue is a great money saver for us that cannot afford Tokonol . . . . ......

[@francsiscog]

Try it with watered down glue?

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Definitely something I'm going to try.

[@mpikas]

FWIW Elmer's white glue is different then Elmer's school glue

[@brucestuart9947]

You are supposed to dilute the glue 1:4 which you didn't appear to do. You didn't really give us a good shot of the samples side by side. From the short shot you did show, they looked the same. The point of using glue is it's glue; it will seal the leather fibres better. Then add beeswax to waterproof if the item is to be used outdoors.

[@markolson7877]

I wonder if the Elmer's can be thinned out with a leather friendly solution

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Oh I'm sure it can. I'm going to look into this more.

[@garyeckstein4917]

Elmer's Glue-All is an aqueous emulsion of Polyvinyl acetate, Polyvinyl alcohol, and Propylene glycol

[@Tradesman1156]

what if you thin down the Elmers and add a little carnauba wax?

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

A few people have suggested that! I'm definitely going to try it. Seiwa has been in contact with me and confirmed Tokonole and Elmer's use the same type of glue (PVA) so I'm going to start playing with it. Maybe I can come up with a recipe!

[@macamd90]

Hola, se me ocurre mezclar, una parte de pegamento blanco y tres partes de agua, agregarle silicona ó crema nivea ó vaselina, y cera de abeja, resina no sé, pero tratar de agregar los ingredientes de tokonole. Soy de Argentina y aquí no se consigue ese producto, yo bruño con cera para piso de madera, en vez de usar agua podes usar limón

[@xchrysantha]

I really appreciate this video! As someone who will not at all be going into leather working and only has two or three faux leather projects I want to do, this is perfect for me to understand whether investing in Tokonole (and therefore collecting something else I may never use again) was worth it or not. Thank you so much!

[@simonsparks5738]

Water down elmers a bit , do your burnishing and finish with a wax oil balm emulsion. I will try it since I make my own balm and have plenty pva wood glue. I also have been wondering if the two are close in some ways. Thanks for posting.

[@markfull75]

Without trying, if I just take the consistency... how about thin the glue with CMC and water?

[@V3leathercraft]

I think, Tokonole is Synthetic Wax+ Glue+Acrylic Resin+additives to keep it liquid (may be glycerin)

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

I might play with it a bit and see if I can make my own Tokonole at some point haha

[@diegobou1007]

@@BlackFlagLeatherGoods that wolud be wonderful! it's imposible to me to buy tokonole in my country.

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

I've been in contact with Seiwa and they confirmed that the glue used in Elmer's and the glue used in Tokonole is the same stuff (PVA). We're on the right track!

[@butter92497]

Thin the glue with water

[@mtnbkr8480]

What if you emptied the glue into a bowl, warmed it up then added a bit of paraffin or carnauba wax?

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

That's a good idea! I'll add that to my list of experiments!

[@lonniesharp9109]

I was thinking the same thing, but maybe thin it out with some neutral oil to make it more applicable.

[@TylrVncnt]

Also try flexing the test pieces, the Elmer’s will crack

[@madenciufuk]

Saliva is maybe the best burnish material for leather. But we don't have much 😂

[@brunnermetalwear]

U think maybe if u watered the glue down or add something that delutes the stickiness of the glue would that work?

[@TobiasC-mg4zk]

Never put anything with silicone on fine leather! It permanently clogs the pores in the hide. This is fine if you want to prevent moisture ingress but the magic of leather is that it will breathe somewhat. On shoes and boots it’s important to allow the moisture in the leather to evaporate or it’s going to rot. Cheap leather boots meant to last one year can benefit from a silicone dubbin but any fine leather meant to last is going to be damaged by clogging it with silicone.

[@DusktillDawn2024]

Try hair conditioner I bet it's the same.

[@ryonmailnurse]

You should add wax and silicone like the data sheet says

[@troycarlson745]

Thanks very much for making these great videos and free patterns! Would it be possible for you to include the Adobe Illustrator file for the patterns as well? I use a CO2 laser to cut the patterns so AI files, svg or dxf work best. I certainly would be willing to pay for these files. Thanks!

[@blackwingvisuals5017]

Known this for years ! Just sayin 😊

[@mohamedebrahem7716]

Tokonole will kill you hahaha

[@michaelkim4743]

But can you glue with Tokonole? 😂

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Oooooh that'll be episode 2 Hahaha

[@alandrewgibson]

Add water or use wallpaper paste!?

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Haha I might try doctoring it up a bit.

[@alandrewgibson]

@@BlackFlagLeatherGoods yes some old school saddle makers swear by wallpaper paste and beeswax mixed to their top secret preparation - guess it depends how long and how far ‘off piste’ from the original Elmer’s White Glue experiment you are willing to endure. Eventually I am sure you will end up making Tokonole or something very close to it!

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Haha I'm thinking I might try!

[@alandrewgibson]

@@BlackFlagLeatherGoods it becomes a challenge to better the Tokinole recipe - you heard it here first folks!

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

Haha! If that's possible!

[@tughilldog]

With well over a million words in the English language, your choice of glitter glue vocabulary seems a bit adolescent and lowers the caual sophistication of your channel significantly in my book. Sorry, Tim. I call unnecessary roughness on your viewers.

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

All good, man. I truly do appreciate the feedback but I was just having fun. I'd rather do stuff that amuses me than try to please everyone else all the time. With that said this video is getting decent views and almost no dislikes so I think you may be in the minority on this one.

[@tughilldog]

@@BlackFlagLeatherGoods 😆 That wouldn't be the first time in my life... I wanted to send the comment privately, but did not see an option. Still, all in all, I like your leather content very much and appreciate the manner of your style otherwise.

[@loschwahn723]

mix it with carnaubawax again and you get same finish. you can apply wax after 1st working process seperately

[@webchez69]

I will not pay 15 dollars for a 10 oz container of tokonol

[@BlackFlagLeatherGoods]

You do you. There are other options.