Bodybuilding vs Strength Training | Starting Strength Gyms Podcast #23

Andy Baker Co-Authored Practical Programming for Strength Training and The Barbell Prescription: Strength Training for Life After 40 with the Founder of Starting Strength, Mark Rippetoe. He is a Starting Strength Coach and the Owner of Baker Personal Training in Kingwood, Texas. He's been a professional strength coach for over 17 years and is considered one of the leaders in the industry for his academic and practical contributions to the field of strength training. Ray and Andy sit down to discuss the differences between strength training and bodybuilding.
Muscular Hypertrophy - startingstrength.com/article/...
Timestamps:
02:08 - Definitions of bodybuilding, strengthlifting, powerlifting, etc.
09:40 - How a young man improves his physique
24:10 - Some advice to build base strength
41:02 - Three contributing factors to physique
50:20 - Don't do more, do better
53:15 - Where does the NLP end and what's next
1:05:00 - Drug use in sports
1:15:30 - Therapeutic doses of TRT
1:23:40 - In summary, if you are a young man and aren't already strong, get strong
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[@lanceh5521]

Can confirm everything stated here is on point. As a 35 year old who has been in and out of the gym since my late teens, doing various levels of bullshit, mostly body builder type splits, I never put on any real size nor did I get "strong". It was a complete waste of time. Big compound barbell movements applied progressively through a good program like Starting Strength is what really should be everyone's starting point and I wish I new this when I was 17. Wanna be a body builder? Cool, you can do that after you've completed the linear progression. I put on more size and strength doing SS in 6 months than I did over the course of 20~ years in the gym doing stupid 6 day per week body part splits and machines. Now I train less (albeit smarter), I rest more, I use less supplements, and I'm the strongest I've ever been and the numbers are still going up.

[@jkuper221]

200% spot on. 33yr old here and I wish I too had found this when I was 19. Imagine the beasts we could have been so much sooner! Cheers on your SS journey!

[@terdferguson9516]

100% the same for me as well. No results for 15 years until I began the starting strength philosophy.

[@joethesheep4675]

Yeah. Same story. Started with SS when i was 29. Within 3 months i accomplished more with SS than what i achieved in 5 years of training by ear in my early twenties.

[@waynenoll1967]

You guys are killing me, lol. I’m in my early sixties and wish I would have known about this in my 40s!

[@aguuug5139]

You did bodybuilding wrong😂

[@chadkintz]

Andy is easily my favorite contributor to SS. I used to live a few miles from his gym but I never went, because I am stupid.

[@xmoogoox]

He's a wealth of information and a gentleman.

[@VegetoStevieD]

Ya, he's good.

[@beskeptic]

LOVE THIS! Thank you for bringing Andy Baker! He's a master at his profession!

[@gregorymccoy6797]

Caught the podcast. Good episode. Always been a big fan of Andy.

[@89sharlo]

Andy Baker's youtube channel is full of gems, too!

[@crucifixgym]

Was great to hear Andy talk about high bar squat for quad development, I came to the same conclusion with low bar squat being posterior dominant for my anthropometry, just as he described.

[@victorGarcia-cw8mq]

I disagree that this is just a 6 to 9 month starting program. I think it's awesome just for guys like me who are in their late 40s but want to stay strong and still look good and fit. I'm rehabbing my right knee and I started this program again and I've always lifted 5 days a week and power lifted... I love this starting strength program and feel it's just overall the best program

[@robertthompson5501]

In the 90's I started lifting using the book Getting Stronger by Bill Pearl. It contained Chapters for Individual activities from Bodybuilding to Blue Collar workers. I became thin and strong. In Utah I climbed mountains, biked miles, ran and cross country skied. Lean and mean. Now at almost 70 appling Linear Progession I am the oldest OG under the barbell at the Local Ymca. With more muscle than ever I have the appetite of a teenager but eat a whole lot smarter with a focus on protein. Starting a Strength rules! 🏋‍♂️🏋🏻🦊

[@josephgi1]

Enjoyed this one. Would love to see more podcasts with Andy in the future.

[@xmoogoox]

Me too.

[@MrYogi12Bear]

@@xmoogoox Great Podcast, I'ld like to see him on again some day.

[@xmoogoox]

@@MrYogi12Bear will do 🍻

[@PappaAlvaro]

He has his own podcast. Recommend that one

[@davidbenson3999]

I’d love to see another one with Andy!

[@xmoogoox]

Definitely.

[@theodoricthegoth4027]

Principals of sports training, Special strength development for all sports, and book of methods are all full of golden hunks of knowledge.

[@HenchPig]

Ive found most of louie’s books to be a mess and really difficult to extrapolate practical advice out of them.

[@andrewwisniewski6159]

Great Video!

[@jasonpedwaydon9430]

Good stuff. Thanks guys.

[@xmoogoox]

🍻

[@Lucie-uu3nb]

Hey, I listened to this and I competed at the IPF worlds this year 💪 😁

[@AnthonyAcello]

Excellent info and advice.

[@xmoogoox]

🍻

[@d4024]

Maximum beard hypertrophy 👊

[@sethdbrown30]

I would say 200mg of Test a week is more sport TRT vs just hormone replacement. A healthy make produces 10-15 mg daily, which is around 100 mg per week. I think most guys on "TRT" are taking too much and are carrying around more muscle than what they could at healthy natural levels. I've been in the gym for 20 years, and every guy I've met that is jacked but not completely juiced is on "TRT". I took a couple of Testosterone cycles around 15 years ago...my cycles were 250 mg of Testosterone a week, and I got substantially bigger and stronger on what many people claim is a TRT dose. I have no problem with someone taking TRT to be in the natural range, but so many guys use it to take low-dose cycles and then try to claim the are on replacement dose.

[@1wisestein]

Practical programming is such a great book. I find it funny how much of this podcast is just rehashing topics that are covered in that book.

[@athanatos9648]

Great stuff

[@TyGregorius]

Please get him back on. I love Andy

[@derekgreen7319]

What I think people misunderstand about bodybuilding is that the majority of those guys are very strong by most standards. Between that and drugs is why they get away with body part splits . But those guys often have big benches and squats.

[@andrewpeterson4681]

The question of "why do guys go on gear when there's no money in it, or never be national level competitors" is easy. Why does anyone do what it easy or feel good even to their own detriment, poor evaluation of risk/reward ratio, lack of education, social pressure, fear of missing out, etc...

[@eclipsez0r]

1 star out of 5. No pink man

[@michaelplante4560]

Rip was busy hanging out with his best friend Spongebob.

[@eclipsez0r]

@@michaelplante4560 In the baths

[@ministryofanti-feminism1493]

@@michaelplante4560 Nah, he's basking in the sun in his speedos, topping up his Pink.

[@HenchPig]

Agreed - Pink lives matter.

[@hillbilly24]

He is as pink as Jordan Peterson's lobsters.

[@AlexLifts1971]

Great video brother 👍the prelude discussion was very informative. I wonder if that guys issue is his biceps tendon? I was getting pain in my biceps tendon a couple of years ago in the deep stretch and what helped it go away is I put a fat grip on the center knurl and it acted like a block. Will email you when I get to the office

[@kqh123]

Enjoyed this convo a lot. I was just a bit disappointed at 9:30 because i wanted to hear the answer to Ray's question, how to build your physique, and Andy seemed to answer, how to improve your performance.

[@certifiedcustomz4301]

I've seen more of a difference in my size when I start taking strength training seriously. I train both but I make sure I get my main 3 compound lifts done first, deadlift-bench-squat, then I pump up with useless curls & triceps lol

[@xmoogoox]

Don't forget your presses my good man. Power cleans too unless you have a reason not to.

[@certifiedcustomz4301]

@@xmoogoox yessir

[@snoopys14]

I do greyskull lp but love the content, I just wanna be bigger and stronger, I never wanna be as weak as I was when I started never never, I could not even do 1push up

[@moeazam6358]

Awesome video. For a second I thought Ray was doing the Mike Tyson thing where he went around snorting cocaine straight from the bag with a milkshake straw 🤣

[@xmoogoox]

I'm way too cheap for that.

[@mikemusgrove9654]

On Intense Muscle, some of the older guys state outright to run Starting Strength to completion before starting the DC 2-Way.

[@gavinvandraven]

What if you have already done the LP and want to go on a cut? Do you just maintain your 3 sets of 5 at that specific weight, say 405 for squat, or do you just do a top set and get out of the gym because you are eating less?

[@xmoogoox]

Check out the episode I did with Stan Efferding for a detailed answer.

[@lanceh5521]

If you've already done the LP the chances that you're still working a 3x5 is slim to none. You've likely, or should have, transitioned into a intermediate programming that is no longer using that rep scheme. However, the question would still stand, should you maintain whatever rep scheme you're working and the answer is yes. Just because you're cutting doesn't mean you should stop attempting to progress the weight, BUT it is going to be difficult. Managing your expectations when cutting is key. You eventually will likely have to back off the volume a bit. Most recommend keeping the intensity (weight) high and reduce the volume if needed.

[@TheNotimprezed]

So many variables but any decent program should be have a barbell at its base and changing weights and/or reps throughout the program period. I've had people ask me for an arm routine or what I do for arms and they are stunned when I tell them nothing specific - no curls, no tri work and the only work the tri's get are from heavy barbell bench, medium-heavy incline dumbbell press and weighted dips and the biceps only get hit with weighted chins and barbell and dumbell row variations. Of course the press is in there too, but by building a big chest, big back, lats, shoulders etc with barbell movements, big arms are a side effect of that. You will make way more progress in your fitness goals if you make getting strong the foundation. You aren't gonna get big legs squatting 135 for sets of 12. But they will get bigger if you get your squat deep in the 300s or up to 405. And it doesnt take long to get there adding 15 lbs per week. Then when you want to "bodybuild" you'll be doing 275 for sets of 12

[@jasonpletscher1744]

How do you get to the 500 lbs deads, 400 squats etc in 9 to 12 months? Does anyone suffer constant set backs? I've been doing SS since 2019, even had a coach. I've exhausted the nlp and still cannot get close to those numbers without the set backs and having to start over. Any advise?

[@richards6431]

They were either strong to begin with, naturally gifted, or lying.

[@xmoogoox]

Those numbers might take two years for an average guy to get to, if he's willing to gain weight and he never misses a workout. It will vary based on your individual genetics, but this is what we consider "strong" for a guy.

[@dalebraithwaite6890]

@@xmoogoox what's the best LP you've personally witnessed or know of? Just wondering how different the elite are to the average. I hear wolf and fox are the two standouts.

[@robcubed9557]

Age, size, and anthropometry have quite a bit to do with it. Someone that's 23 years old, 6'2", 200 lbs, that also played football in high school probably has a LOT more potential than someone that's 40, 5'6", and 140 lbs. sThere's also prior experience. Imagine Someone that's lifted "heavy" in high school and college but didn't have good programming. This person probably starts at a higher weight than an completely untrained individual, but that same person likely has a lot of untapped potential.

[@xmoogoox]

John Dowdy at SS Boise ran his squat LP to 430lbs at a 3x5 because life isn't fair. Lots of examples of this, I'm not sure who the winner is

[@michanota4230]

that’s why many hi lvl powerlifters also incorporate hi rep accessory work to train tendons.

[@user-xh3lb1ov3t]

Here's an example how I feel about bodybuilding Vs strength. I recently started paying attention to my form with the starting strength videos I just tried the deadlift. I'm 54 years old and I've just broken my personal best on the deadlift. In my experience don't do exercises like shrugs for your traps do deadlifts properly and you will exercise your traps effectively. Compound movements for strength will make you stronger and bigger...most bodybuilding moves will shape your muscles not make them big

[@sofartsogood3932]

My problem with the “eat more” part is that my body stores the fat only in a few places. My forearms, calves etc look the same if I gain or loose 10kg. But these 10kg give me menboobs and huge love handles. So at 180cm and 86kg my belly already starts to split underneath the bellybutton. If I’d gain more fat, that would look like to flaps or skirts of fat hanging of my body.

[@wereham]

You're not strong enough get your numbers up

[@sofartsogood3932]

@@wereham thanks. Never thought of that 🙃

[@majungasaurusaaaa]

Instead of telling you to get stronger (you're already in a surplus since you're chubby) I'd say increase your volume.

[@xmoogoox]

How's your diet?

[@sofartsogood3932]

@@xmoogoox As I work mostly in Homeoffice, love cooking and eat at my grandma’s 5-6days a week, it’s pretty much self cooked meals made of Whole Foods. A typical day would be Coffee, Eggs with cheese, bread and fruit or protein oatmeal with fruit for breakfast. Lunch this week was a homemade lean beef Bolognese sauce with pasta and cheese. Sometimes it’s chicken with rice and vegetables or again lean ground beef with rice and vegetables. Dinner at grandma‘s is always some sort of meat, vegetables and 9/10 times potatoes with a Glas of wine or 2. Snacks throughout the day are mostly either oatmeal or skyr with honey. Calories at the moment are around 3000 which lets me loose weight very slowly. 2kg in 6 weeks. When I was gaining weight, I ate around 4000-4400. Protein is between 150 on lower days up to 250g on higher days.

[@mrdrsir3781]

I’m on a quest for the mark rippetoe of looookin gooood. Some dude who’s like, “how you look is the first thing people notice. This is true whether you want it to be or not. Some people might think that personality or your heart is what people will notice. It’s instructive to see these very same people when they start to loooook reeeeeaaal goooooood” echoing from the first chapter of starting strength. I did the novice linear progression and got stronger then everyone at my local YMCA as a 19 year old back in the day in 3 months, adding 100+ pounds to all my lifts, drinkin milk out of the carton. Years later, with a total of 520-390-575. I just want a break from being a strength guy. To be vain, look good for my late 20s, have that help attract a quality wife. Just some hyper confident, angry old man whose been doing it for decades and spells out exactly what I need to do and makes it as simple as possible. Eat this, do this training routine exactly and BAM. 3-5 months later I’m the hottest thing at the commercial gym. It may be a dream, but I’m dreamin. The rippetoe of lookin good to guild me to the promise land.

[@Fitins400]

You need mentzer/yates

[@marktechsci]

Look at Bigger, Leaner, Stronger. Michael Matthews who loves Ripp and Ripp respects him.

[@alcoyot]

I went to 6 different gyms around my area to find the one I wanted to go to. A few of them I went several times. I settled on a ymca, and after 20+ visits to all these gyms only one single time did I come in and see any male do a lower body workout of any kind. They are always doing either bench press or half assed froo froo upper body stuff. Everyone is either skinny, or clearly blasting steroids. When I was 15 I would come into the high school weight room and since I had no idea what to do, I would just go to the curl machine and try to use it randomly. It occurred to me that most people never seem to get past that stage.

[@tottino22]

Yeyeye...some People trains for fun/healthy dont forget That man❤😉

[@palmlifeuk3553]

What differences, if any, are there for approaching NLP and diet as a skinny fat 42 year old (me) and a skinny fat young guy? Thanks. Great episode too

[@xmoogoox]

NLP is almost identical. Diet requires more high quality protein and more emphasis on meal timing/size to optimize body composition.

[@palmlifeuk3553]

@@xmoogoox thanks, sounds like a good topic for a podcast 👍

[@xmoogoox]

Good idea - maybe next time we have Andy on.

[@frankd8774]

It is amazing how everyone around Rip seems to suffer from Hypogonadism and yet grow in the gym. But TRT isn't like what the bodybuilders do. You are on gear and it doesn't matter what you call it.

[@seth4x]

what kind of rack do you guys have in your gym?

[@xmoogoox]

Texas Strength Systems Starting Strength Rack

[@soonahero]

Can you name 3 quality beginner bodybuilder programs? (Not ancillary like starting strength)

[@jcdenton2907]

No

[@jamesburns4226]

How about Wendler's 531 four day split after Starting Strength?

[@lanceh5521]

531 is a late intermediate to advanced level program. It's generally not recommended to jump from the NLP to 531. You'll have a bad time. You're better off looking at HLM or some version of the Texas Method after the NLP. Later on you could transition into 531.

[@videojames552]

Hey guys I'm 26 years old, 157lbs and recently started SS program and I am struggling hard. I feel as though my NLP has halted incredibly soon, I'm certain it is due to the new job I got, I work for an ac company in Texas, I spend 10-15 hours a day out in the sun or up in an attic in ~120 degrees, basically just working in a sauna for 12 hours and obviously this must be playing a role in performance in the gym at the end of the day. I was hoping someone had some tips for me, I'm desperate for answers cus I feel helpless right now. Thanks in advance. If its any help to know my numbers my SQUAT is currently at 195, my PRESS is at 105 and today I attempted 110 and couldn't manage a single rep, my BENCH is 155 and when I go to 160 I feel burnt out and the first set of 5 is a massive grind and basically every set after that is a failure of 5, my DL is at 300 I attempted 305 today and couldn't pull it once. All my lifts seem to halt out of nowhere, 155 on bench felt strong I came back to the gym next week very confident for 160 and barely got my first set of 5 as if it were a max effort. Again any tips would mean the world to me, thanks!

[@BIG_ASS_MOOSE]

Maybe with the workload at work try something like old man Texas method? Not too sure as your relatively young. Could be calories too

[@videojames552]

@@BIG_ASS_MOOSE 100% the calories. I started drinking milk and everything has been progressing normally lol

[@BIG_ASS_MOOSE]

@@videojames552 lol good to hear

[@lanceh5521]

@@videojames552 This was my very first reaction - you're not eating enough. Glad you got it sorted!

[@siblue37]

U need to eat more and maybe workout 2 times a week

[@haczabim]

1:09:32 Ray thinking real hard about that sentence.

[@MikeUniformLima90]

Kek

[@ProphetFear]

Bodybuilding training involves a lot of internal cuing to emphasize muscles and to do volume throughout the whole body. Strength on lifts stops being a concern at some point.

[@QuomaD]

Heavy squat day gives me stress

[@uncircumcisedcircus]

Training as a natural is truly a science, you can't be like "just lift big bro and you will get huge". In order to be a successful natty you must have great patience and willing to get fat with a dash of masochism.

[@jcdenton2907]

No

[@adriansmith6664]

Heavy guitars , BJJ and weights - yup

[@stephenwirth9298]

Strength is fine but bodybuilding diet is more important… I don’t Care how strong u r u have 2 eat big 2 get big period !

[@saltrock9642]

Just chalk it up and beg your body for more……..More iron, please 🙂.

[@theguy9067]

You both initially started dissuading people from taking drugs and the host eventually reveals hes on trt. Granted this isnt the same as taking tren and what have you but ultimately you ARE on drugs. So its just a bit telling that every guy you see that looks "big" is AT LEAST on TRT it doesnt exactly encourage men to be drug free. Where are the completely natural strong lifters on youtube and media in general? Every popular guy whos in this space is either on drugs or lying about it

[@kqh123]

I believe the host is on TRT due to his age. He's over 40 I think. It is not taken by guys on their teens, 20s, or 30s, and there are big strong natural guys in their 20s and 30s. And I think TRT primarily improves you're mood, sleep, and energy, rather than acting as anabolic steroid for muscle growth.

[@VegetoStevieD]

Bodybuilding is when a man does gay porn to afford steroids and food, then shaves his body, slathers himself in oil, and struts around on a stage in a purple bikini bottom.

[@AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken84]

Sounds like regret

[@VegetoStevieD]

@@AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken84 It is, but it's not mine.

[@Cormac-jd2kx]

Bodybuilding is cringey 😂 Sucks!

[@jms0313]

Strength is Masculine; bodybuilding is weak weird and feminine

[@jms0313]

Bodybuilding is the trans movement as strength lifting is to MAGA