Bookshelf Speaker Quality Scaling by Price Comparison

[@robinkleinsteuber5217]

Over the many years of being an audiofool, I have heard some expensive speakers that sounded horrible. Quite disappointing, in fact! And, of course, I have heard cheaper ones that sounded awful, as well. So a very long time ago, I came to conclude that the price alone was no indicator. The price really doesn't impress me much. I look to measurements as a precursory guide and then ultimately listen to the units, price be damned. Thanks for the work put into this video! Happy listening, everyone!! 😊

[@gregkramer5588]

For sure, I first hear 901s when I was 16 and was like WTH?

[@MechAdv]

This is why Ascend Acoustics is my new favorite brand. They provide full near field scanner data on all their speakers, and their pricing is firmly middle of the road. The Sierra LX measures as good as anything I’ve ever seen as far as bookshelves go, and a pair is 1500$. Made in the USA from Norwegian drivers too! I think their only Achilles heel is low sensitivity.

[@joelopez7459]

Musta been Vandersteens ...........*runs*

[@jman8368]

You're absolutely right, but the really good ultra high end generally cant be beat by the budget speakers. The majority of the high end speakers I've heard are overpriced. Also, many speakers I've heard that measure well sound terrible.

[@leodesforges161]

@@MechAdv It's actually 87db which is good, and it's likely accurately 87db which is not the case for all manufacturers specs. Sensitivity is not a worry for me at all. I've never had a speaker that I cant drive to satisfactory levels with 100 WPC.

[@joek6207]

At Axpona I liked the Atohm bookshelf’s which were like $4500 and then the BMR’s were the best value pick at $1700

[@jameslarson2277]

We hope to do a review of Atohms sometime later this year. Stay tuned!

[@matthewfrazee3352]

Erin’s audio, ASR and you guys have seemed to up everyone’s speaker designs. Just got the nad m66 to go with my nad m23. It is truly transformationally what Dirac live bass control did to my kef ls50 metas and k62 subs. I feel no need to upgrade my speakers or subs.

[@kudzuelvisks]

I have the Heco 200s (300s were unavailable) and the Focal Theva No1 Love them both. Both systems have Focal Cub Evo 8" subs.

[@Jeipr]

How do you compare theur sounds?? . I ve k ow of the focal more analytical sounds.

[@kudzuelvisks]

@@Jeipr For me the Focal is a far superior speaker in both fullness and quality of sound. It can get a bit bright as people comment but for my untrained old ears I just EQ a bit of the high end out and think they are great. I also acquired since posting a set of the Heco 300 and would place them in the middle of the 3

[@Arthax83]

Loved this comparison! Learned alot!

[@WeeWeeJumbo]

Listening to Salk Song 3s in my study right now. Best loudspeakers I’ve ever heard, worth a lot more than every penny I paid. Tragic that Salk couldn’t sustain their business

[@mrwilliamwonder]

It's funny how actual sound always has the least to do with sales.

[@wa2368]

Salk speakers are boring.

[@ken33935]

@@mrwilliamwonder I know Salk but I can't find enough information about them to make my purchase decision, so maybe that was the issue. Probably should have, though I do own a pair of BMR after a brief chat with Dennis.

[@mrboat580]

Good video. I typically reside in about the $6-8k, all in, for 2 channel range. It occurred to me though, some time back, that I can be hooked into a lengthy listening session by much less. It's like whatever speakers around here get me first. This has curbed my quest for upgrading towards higher-end, pretty much completely. I am actually pleased that I am that easy after having visited the more expensive side of all this. I was headed up, just because I thought that was the logical thing to do. I am a stereo fanatic, otherwise, who listens every day. Full range bookshelf speakers below 8" are a hard sale for me. Just do not see the value above $1K for what ends up taking up as much room as a tower in all but on an actual table or shelf. One pretty much has to figure in a sub of equal quality to the equation. I am happy though, that budget speakers have improved so much. The budget realm of speakers a few decades back were awful.

[@joek6207]

If I’m using room correction at what point does speaker quality not matter?

[@Audioholics]

Speaker quality always matters regardless of room correction. EQ cannot fix a bad speaker or compensate for poor dynamic range, distortion or bandwidth.

[@TriAmpMyFi]

. A+ for an excellent question. Running room correction software doesn't change the question of speaker quality mattering. Assuming one is running software & has a point at which speaker quality doesn't matter any further i.e. the sound is satisfactory, then this case is no different than one not running software. The matter is the same because the search for better sound is the same for those who do and for those who don't run software. Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊

[@kurtkrummel]

Question from a newbie - what's the listening window? Is that out 20 degrees or some other angle from centerline?

[@willbrink]

I enjoyed the content of this one. BMR does not really have a equivalent model to that Salk either. No doubt the BMR Monitor sounds great, but it's quite a different speaker.

[@jameslarson2277]

The BMR Philharmonitor is quite different, for sure, but the designer is the same in both cases and he uses similar performance targets. For what its worth, he did tell me that he prefers the BMRs but says that he likes these as well!

[@Leo-tf7gu]

Wondering how CSS Audio falls in place in this lineup? They do offer premade designs. I know you all are allergic to GR Research because the guy's eccentric. But I owned GR Research DIY speakers and they sounded phenomenal for the money.

[@ken33935]

I have no appetite for influencer speakers, hard pass.

[@Leo-tf7gu]

@@ken33935 most speakers now are influencer speakers. Emotiva / SVS / Heco / Focal / Klipsch. They all hit the review scene in the same week or month once released. Everything has an influencer behind it.

[@kenandbarbie-b6c]

The bottom line for any speaker is how well they sound, no matter who makes them.

[@4thewinir344]

I built the CSS Criton 1TDX w/ their high end x-over upgrade. They definitely sound on another level compared to my $500 Elac Unifi, Klipsch RP600M and even Wharfedale Linton. Although they were nearly $1200 total for the unbuilt kit, I would imagine they compete in the $2-4k range in terms of sound. I have no regrets and the kit allowed me to experience a sound quality I would otherwise not be able to afford.

[@Z3pticon]

Would love the same for «studio» monitors (or pc speakers as they are mostly used for)

[@TenaciousSound]

Those are both EXCELLENT drivers in the 1802Gs. I used Hiquphon tweeters years ago when I owned Fried speakers. Dennis obviously did a fantastic job with the cross-over. Any idea what slopes he used? Also, comments on HECO make me think that people were responding to the rise in the presence region as opposed to high treble.

[@brucedaniels2497]

Can anyone answer this ......can't seem to find any heco aurora bookshelves anywhere ...what would be a close enough match for surround backs if I have heco 700 front LR and heco center ? (To complete a 5.1.2 system) Please help 🥲

[@mrboat580]

With the known drivers, if those are still available, one could essentially still splash the Salk design, or pretty close to it. Especially knowing the crossover points.

[@madcrabber1113]

So I was doing other things while half listening to this with bluetooth earbuds and am I mistaken in hearing that the best out of the 3 speakers cannot even be purchased?

[@Audioholics]

Correct. These 3 models were used as examples to prove a point.

[@joelopez7459]

those boutique speakers are hit or miss

[@paulgyro]

Great discussion. I'd add often times more money gets you more and cleaner output (more dbs with less distortion). This is normally a result of better drivers and cabinet and even crossover components.

[@WeeWeeJumbo]

everything you’ve said is true

[@trauma50disaster1]

@@WeeWeeJumbo that's why the thumbs up button exists...

[@jamesvozar1]

I want to spend my Friday night listening to speakers haha

[@adrianjw]

exactly haha, as an audio enthusiast I would love to do that

[@jamesvozar1]

@@adrianjw I know right!

[@rianredfield5252]

Mission lx3 vs. Heco aurora 300 vs Polk r200 comparison please

[@denniso9503]

Is that April 18th next year?

[@williamkramer9069]

No this video was most likely released to patron members first.

[@DTA_Crypto]

Love this video i have had SVS ultra bookshelves and loved it. Especially with subs. Now I am looking at Sopra NO1 or Perlisten S4Bs. Depending on your space . My being a open concept living room. I haven't had a chance to listen to the S4b But I have herd the Sopra at a local dealer and loving the sound.

[@jameslarson2277]

Sopra No.1s are some of the best 2-way bookshelf speakers I have encountered, rivaled -not bested- only by the 1802G Reference speakers in this video. The Perlisten S4bs are excellent, but they aren't really the same kind of speaker. They are a 3-way speaker intended for higher output applications with subwoofers. They don't do deep bass. If you aren't going to be using the speakers with subwoofers, get the Sopras. If you will be using subs and want a wide dynamic range, get the Perlistens. Both are terrific speakers.

[@MK-rn2hm]

what an awesome subject for a video. Bravo!

[@dillonmaggiano5415]

Would you be better off getting 1k speakers and 2k in room treatments?

[@mrwilliamwonder]

You'll never need to spend 2k in room treatment if you have any creativity at all. Always get the best equipment you can afford. Put the money there.

[@dillonmaggiano5415]

@@mrwilliamwonder Matthew Poes and Anthony Grimani might disagree with you, but point taken

[@mrwilliamwonder]

@@dillonmaggiano5415 Anything can be used as room treatment. Doesn't have to be expensive. Pictures, furniture, tapestry, foam, etc.

[@ken33935]

No, spend 3k on the speakers

[@dillonmaggiano5415]

@@ken33935 I'm partial to this because speakers are prettier and have the most distortion in the audio reproduction chain, but at a certain point you're hearing the room and not the speakers, so it makes sense to treat the room

[@asx1248]

Hi, when you guys say it’s important to have your speakers the same distance from the side walls can I ask a quick point of clarity? My right wall is flat. My left wall has a fireplace so is not flat. For that wall, should the distance for the speaker be measured from the front of the brick fireplace or the deepest part of the alcove or something else? Thank you.

[@jameslarson2277]

Much of the acoustic radiation from speakers emits from a lateral direction. That means that the side walls of your room will get hit with a lot of sound energy, and the walls will reflect most of it. Much of that reflected acoustic energy will hit your listening position, and in doing so, it boosts the sound coming from that speaker. So if one speaker is closer to a wall than the other, it not only gets a larger boost, the reflected energy also arrives at your listening position sooner. Both time arrival of sound and also amplitude are used by human hearing to determine localization, or what we would call 'imaging.' So the stereo image can shift in the direction of any speaker that is closer to nearby surfaces, especially side walls. If there is no choice in speaker placement, and one has to have an asymmetrcial placement, the adverse sound effects can be combated with treatments on the closer wall with stuff like acoustic absorbers, equalizers, and other techniques, so it doesn't have to degrade the sound necessarily, but it does take some effort and care to address.

[@macross8767]

Focal’s pricing in the US is rough… pretty sure you can get the Thevas for about €49/pr with a free baguette in France.

[@jp93309]

Yup I’ve been trying get the Heco 300s since your and they’re out everywhere I’ve looked.

[@ken33935]

Best bang for the buck at that range

[@connorduke4619]

Try Dynaudio Evoke 10 paired to a high current amp like Rotel 1572 MkII, for the most natural bookshelf speaker sound you can get for sane money.

[@IanKnight40]

What sort of average listening levels and peak levels were used?. I find that large well recorded orchestral music shows up dynamic range/ distortion/compresion limitations in speakers. That can even show up at average levels of around 85db at seating position. Orchestral massed violins can sound really bad onsome speakers... even expensive ones.

[@trauma50disaster1]

85? my ears with much over 70

[@chuckmaddison2924]

I like bookshelf I've got 2 sets . Mordaunt short and Tangent. My all time favourite constitution is brick and cement with sand on the bottom. Not easy move so get it right.

[@williamkramer9069]

I would love to know whats Jame's set up is. I know he uses a pioneer elite reciever and his backdrop for pictures looks to be an almost floor to cieling projection screen. He gives off the vibe that mid tier speakers are good enough for him, which is a nice change from high end influencer fluff that can be found else-where.

[@jameslarson2277]

The Pioneer receiver is long gone. I use a Marantz 7705 receiver with a Monoprice 5-channel Monolith amp, the one that uses ATI's class AB platform. Mid-tier speakers can be very good, and I do think the returns diminish significantly in sound quality as pricing goes higher.

[@trauma50disaster1]

@@jameslarson2277 poe basically says we have to have perlisten on nothing from what I gather

[@MacRobilane]

Worst bookselfs have bass reflex port behind, because how to place these on bookshelf 😅

[@tangobodo977]

How would you rate the Dali Epicon 2 against the 1802G? The Dali is about twice the price.

[@jameslarson2277]

Dali's are great speakers. I couldn't compare them unless I did A/B testing. I would love to do that shoot-out, however.

[@Charles12509]

I am looking for bookshelf speakers for the wife’s art studio, tight for space they have to go on a shelf or table, stands won’t work….am I spinning my wheels and need to rethink this?..

[@mrwilliamwonder]

Go mostly by weight. Try to get 25 pounds or over.

[@jC-kc4si]

If you are looking for small but still good performance look at Ascend HTM 200's. They can handle 200 watts RMS.

[@Charles12509]

@@jC-kc4si the art studio is stuffed full of stuff so I am using the Naim Until Atom that is 40 watts and has everything in one box for streaming…

[@RennieAsh]

4:50 with crossover schematic and driver list, cabinet dimensions, they could be made :)

[@joelopez7459]

I woulda used the R3s instead of the Focal. I remember hearing the jump from the R series to the reference series had a big jump in quality bass, though of course those are like $10K.

[@bigjay1970]

Didnt watch yet but fantastic topic. Ofcourse looking forward to seeing what James has to say!😬😎

[@garyharper2943]

I love Polk, inexpensive, sounds great and have great finishes. More money only gives you bragging rights!

[@mrwilliamwonder]

Polk have improved the last 5 years.

[@ken33935]

@@mrwilliamwonder The new Polk Legend and Reserve very well made.

[@northeastcorals]

Good idea for a video subject 👍

[@nc3419]

In my experience, price, size, build doesn't guarantee absolute performance improvements and even when they do, you may prefer a cheaper speaker that doesn't measure as well. Depends on synergy, room, tastes, etc. I find my budget models preferable to alot of others more expensive or more resolving. Especially when more expensive speakers do some things better but others worse. I think one point is that higher ended gear (relative) is expected to be able to be played louder while maintaining SQ so if one typically listens at lower to moderate SPLs...what's the point of spending more? Some more expensive speakers actually give you better performance at lower SPls but not all do. Experience, room, tastes matter and if a cheaper system does it, don't upgrade. But you won't know where the point of getting more performance for one's needs are until you put some time in this hobby.

[@analogkid4557]

Awesome shirt.

[@ajzepp8976]

Why is Gene referencing an event on april 18th if this is being posted on april 27th? 🤨

[@Audioholics]

Recorded prior. That part should be deleted now.

[@rrt08]

Nope still April 18th giveaway in video?

[@monkeymanstones1]

YES! Someone else with the same opinion of Klipsch and the d*mn horn tweeter they use. It's great to know my exact experience isn't just mine. I don't own the Theva bookshelves but do own 4 No.3-D's, the center channel and 2 surrounds. They're good, but I absolutely do not love them. Sure the problem may be from the Marantz SR8015 which I bought with them (it's extremely problematic... Plays FLAC 192 24 but does it? Has anyone had that actually happen through the USB port on the front lower right? For me it refuses to play as much). I like these Theva's but * absolutely do not love them. But I should say, I bought them because it was less expensive then sending my 1990's Martin Logan's in to be refurbished (arcing). I'm going to give Dali Oberon's a chance next (but physically receiving the 9's seems to be impossible, so going 7's in the front is hard to swallow). Really I should just go back to where I was happiest and buy a full set of Martin Logan's as new. I think... (On occasion)

[@Clobercow1]

Not seeing a range of distortion and compression is disappointing. I think listening window, compression, and multi tone are basically mandatory at those leice levels.

[@djb8816]

My speakers sound lovely And nobody can tell me otherwise

[@trauma50disaster1]

I'm worse than a casual cause I listen to a lot of music and movies and evidently have no audiophile ear. I bought 1 speaker from $35-$1500 and don't think there is that much difference.

[@psyphonyxaudio]

ah.. so this was recorded before the Anniversary show.

[@Audioholics]

Yea I deleted that part.

[@psyphonyxaudio]

@@Audioholics ... 🙏🙏🎉🎉👍🏻👍🏻.. All good ... Im here for all of it. 😊😊📈📈

[@trauma50disaster1]

it doesn't enhance the audio experience, it enhances the experience. The car isn't enhanced with a full tank of gas or after a car wash, but that might enhance the experience.

[@middleearthltd]

I don’t get this at all. How is that Focal on axis good especially for $1k ? From the comments it appears that GR is persona non grata which is laughable after listening to this. Philharmonic does make nice speakers. I think DIY makes the most sense and there are some fantastic values out there CSS for example Could not finish this as I don’t care what his family thinks about speakers

[@ryangriffith3729]

Nice shirt gene

[@Nightjar726]

Dennis and Philharmonic need to ditch those BMR drivers and start using something else. Yeah they might perform well, but they turn people away. Listening is also seeing fortunately or unfortunately.

[@richgrao]

So……… the answer is it all depends on who is listening and what their budget is!!??? Or, in other words, it is mostly all subjective, and value for money is totally dependent on how crazy an audiophile the listener is, and how “golden” their ears are.

[@mikeschmidt2339]

Nice shirt

[@davidgamble5756]

We are all different so speakers will sound different to other people

[@Luke-qs2cg]

I feel like the term "performance" in speakers is thrown around way too often. Performance should be an objective measurement, with data to back at every deduction stated. Similar to when we talk about vehicle performance. Otherwise, what are we talking about about here other than words? So many reviewers just throw around words for the dollar. love when I get data for what's being said showing why it's being said.

[@Audioholics]

Not everything that matters can be measured and not everything that can ne measured matters in loudspeakers. How we perceive sound and pychoacoustics can't be easily qualified with absolution using measurements alone.

[@Prerich45]

However different people heard different things. Could it be that the last variable in listening is the listener themselves? I know people that don't like Revel (not me though), and others that don't like B&W...it boils down to what makes the user happy. 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@Luke-qs2cg]

@@Audioholics psychoacoustics are entirely down to the listeners ear structure, subjective preferences, room and it's own reflective/absorbtive properties, even temperature can play into psychoacoustics. So to take it into account, even over data, when all other parameters are quantifiable, would be subjective fallacy. I think this is where "everyone is different and you should try it in your own room" comes in as the best advice, though having objective quantifiable data to start with should be top priority, like with all other purchases. All escooters ride differently, but we have easy to evaluate base data to start with to make that choice. Then subjective review for the "try yourself" part.

[@Audioholics]

@Luke-qs2cg measurements are for dating, listening is to decide to marry.

[@Luke-qs2cg]

@@Audioholics Well put!

[@simonzinc-trumpetharris852]

Wharfedale diamond 9.1.

[@gregkramer5588]

Gene is wearing my shirt today! Or a size bigger with those guns!

[@BillDouglass-m9d]

As we all know from watching G.R. research all these speakers have low quality crossover network. I love watching Danny take apart speakers that us consumers send him to evaluate. He shows us how cheap parts in crossover will make speakers with good drivers sound half-assed. Danny has forgot more about speakers than 99% of so called reviewers will ever know. As he has told and showed us spending more money does not get you better quality crossovers. Emotiva bookshelf speakers beter than most at 2-3 times the price.

[@ken33935]

Danny certainly knows his craft, the question is would it be better to buy a pair with the mod or just use that money and go for the next tier products.

[@ProfessorJohnSmith]

He doesn't show us that higher quality parts make any difference in the measurements. Thats because there is no difference.

[@ken33935]

@@ProfessorJohnSmith I was under the impression that he basically replaces the crossover design to make the frequency response flatter. The question is does it make sense to throw another $400-500 mod on top of the $750 Polk R200 or just get something at the $1250 level to begin with, because for sure that's enough money to hear the difference

[@Audioholics]

Yea, a guy that makes a living selling "upgrade" parts is going to be hypercritical of any speaker that isn't his design. There is no conflict of interest there at all 😅

[@ken33935]

In my earlier example you can buy a pair of Polk R500 tower which will sound better than any upgrades you can do with the R200 for the same money

[@stephanlazarz1921]

Boring.

[@Audioholics]

Search some Taylor Swift videos. That seems more your speed.