Borderline's Fantasy: YOU Her Rock, Special Friend (with Prof. Ed Dutton Jolly Heretic)

The Borderline's fantasy revolves around external regulation: outsourcing her internal psychodynamics to an intimate partner or a special friend.
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[@samvaknin]

Published papers mentioned towards the end of the conversation are available here: www.narcissistic-abuse.com/mediakit.html

[@aalves9453]

I agree 100% that cluster b is one disorder with multiple self states. It's not uncommon to question whether the person you were involved with was a histrionic rather than a borderline or antisocial rather than a narcissist or any combination there of. Think back, and you'll realize that you've dealt with all of these self states at one point or another.

[@Arronrod]

In my head I call it the “soup”. At any given time it’s a ladle full of different traits from the cluster B buffet.

[@LoveHitch78]

100% agree... My ex's emphasis was clearly borderline, but yeah the whole cluster b buffet did manifest in one way or another.

[@gorunsko31]

She cannot regulate herself in time of distress, because there was no one to comfort her in childhood and even worse: she was scolded and rejected for being “ disregulated, therefore she rejects herself when she is feeling hurt. I know, bc this is my experience. I am healing via self love. Instead rejecting and punishing myself for other’s hurtful comment, for example, I laboriously cultivate self compassion. It can be done. Much love ❤️ to all seekers of healing. Thank you to prof Dutton and Sam Vaknin.

[@angeleyes8808]

As a borderline and just out of an eight year narcissistic relationship, I can vouch, everything Sam vaknin says is TRUE🤣🤣 I shouldn't laugh, but I did, because you were both so spot on!!!!!!!👊

[@neodeadlyrave3627]

Ed Dutton and Sam Vaknin both have good shows, very cool when they do something together

[@b.j4348]

I believe I have BPD; I also realised recently my entire family would fall under the cluster-b category. My mother is a hyper-abusive covert narcissist. Lots of generational trauma in my family, I see four generations of it right now.. Grandparents abused my mother, my mother abused her children, my brother is having his second child to a woman he loathes and is separated from. I don't think its genetic or a coincidence, I was trained / groomed to take on the emotional responsibilities of my entire family which was super dysfunctional. In my early teens, was dealing with extremely internalised feelings that I was sub-human. Was chronically depressed and continue to hold both those in my heart too this day. In hindsight, those internalised feelings became a thing because I was treated / continue to be treated as nothing but an object in my family. Complete double-standards - they expect me to protect their image while my mother will tell everyone about my issues with addiction etc. (My brother dragged me into a methlab, expected me to work with him - when I left was silenced via threats of kidnapping and other. When I went to my mother trying to avoid involving police, she shut me down knowing fully well what that brother was doing - her image and reputation is literally more important then my life) My general anxiety comes from a place in which I spent a lifetime stressing about issues I have zero control over. Unhealthy attachment comes from never having a healthy relationship in my life - just ones that replicate the one sided nature of my mother. I had a violent / abusive step-father and he never tried to hide the fact he had rules / expectations for me.. and different rules and expectations for his own biological child. Its like because my mother put 0% of emotional energy into the family - I became the person exerting 110% of it. I'm hyper emotional - which scares a lot of people as a 27yo male. Shrek would call me an onion, cause there is many layers to the issue underneath my skin. Great video as usual - love the work it has been formative in my process of understanding the dynamics. Without resources like this, i'm very certain i'd be a confused, depressed and chaotic maniac.

[@lyndiacurtis2065]

Professor Vaknin is amazing on explaining the personality disorders, his patience while waiting for the questions is very good, I wish he knew how much he has influenced my life, thank you professor!

[@chriskahlson]

Excellent interactive narrative about how personality disorders are continually shifting, to gain situational control, based upon variety of driving childhood traumas.

[@TheIsraelProphetess]

I have bpd. I can explain how I perceive myself as goddess like and still hate myself and have been suicidal. The reason for that is because in the past, I associate altruism or self sacrifice, as the ultimate expression of being God. It’s that simple. Killing your self is being the most like God. It’s the messiah complex. I call it the Madonna (virgin Mary) complex for me as a female. As a God I must suffer. But unlike a real God, I know I can’t resurrect myself.

[@samvaknin]

Search the BPD playlist for good object and bad object.

[@jamesphilip4402]

Schema therapy & EMDR can be transformational for BPD traits

[@jamesphilip4402]

@@catcat9582 have you tried tonglen & chöd? Massive recommend both.

[@sekuribindu2170]

Just listening to his lectures brings so much stability in my borderline psyche

[@Msminimumdose]

It’s uncanny how you have described what I have witnessed all my life with my mother as a bpd and narcissistic partner, after discarding my father who was kind and loving. 45 years later, before I heard this accurate description I kept saying, it’s as if I’m in a hostage situation 😂, she has no volition of her own.

[@mohammedfazhridabdulkarim4376]

The guy asked the best question. Eye opening.

[@uosfhoaierepq4096]

My exgirlfriend was exactly like this. Even her hand writing was totally different sometimes. She was like someone with multiple personalities. i've read a lot about BPD, and seen a lot of Sam's videos and others, but now thanks this video it is all clear. I wasn't sure she had BPD, but when Sam said pathological lying, i knew. This was the last piece in this puzzle. Every single point is true. Every one. Idealization, love bombing, fantasy, rapidly escalating relationship, seeking romantc love, bonding through trauma, intensity, mirroring, clinginess, engulfment anxiety, switching, false selves / multiple personalities, a kind of emptiness that you can feel, acting out, cheating, secondary psychopathic state, coldness, pathological lying, manipulation, splitting. These all happened in a few months.

[@rickknight3823]

Same... I went out with a young 24 y/o with all that going on. Took all my effort to get away from her.. She was so full on and despite me feeling like I was Don Juan in the beginning I soon saw all the red flags.

[@74palms]

The collab of the decade

[@ChaoticAnswers]

I was a favourite person with a women with BPD at work. She told me she has it. Both parents are narcissists. 4 months of happy connection and conversations. I sent a message at the wrong time. I was dead to her overnight. She asked the boss to tell me to never interact with her. I avoid her like covid because eye contact or hello feels like smothering her. I HATE her dad who did awful things to her and is still a major burden in her life. He owes HER money, pathetic human. It hurts so much being an empath. There is nothing i can do, just accept it.

[@FlamenDia1is]

When you brought up what it would be like to have an intellect and not be able to communicate it causing great internal pain I as an autistic immediately understood what you meant. Then when you transitioned to speak about it in the autistic context I realized so much of why the experience of being autistic really is very unpleasant for us. I had not put two and two together, and I hope Prof Dutton was able to understand how profound that was.

[@livingthedream915]

what a great dialog, thanks gentlemen!

[@Studio-ch3qc]

I have cptsd, raised by two autistics who I believe are both narcissistic and BPD. I also have two siblings, male and female, who are also on the spectrum who exhibit traits of personally disorder.

[@nicoladisvevia]

Have been fascinated throughout by the fact that Ed appears like an Old Master portrait, all brown tones against a dark background and complete with sfumato.

[@mohammedfazhridabdulkarim4376]

The best video on bpd n npd ever!

[@tara-fq3bi]

Thank you guys !

[@user-ju8fn8fu9s]

Thank you so much Dear Professor ❤

[@deejay8ch]

Very good boys. Sam I am sure that your new book will be an insightful read about post-childhood trauma psychological disorders because so much of what you say here makes sense and resonates. Well done and keep up the great work.

[@hospice8896]

Scary how true. Mine would after a destructive ( alcoholic or violent) outburst, talk in 5 yr old mantras. " I wanna go home" for hrs. Distressing

[@davidelliott9378]

Sam, watched and enjoyed many videos. One thing that repeatedly confuses me is that you often mention that BPD and NPD are actually possibly in the same entity, and like a river they can become one , then the other within a cluster B entity as per ICD. I.E.- at one point on time they can be NPD then switch to BPD and back again. But then we hear that BPD can 'burn out' by e.g. age 45 and recover, yet NPD never 'recovers'. So if a person can blend betwen the two, how can BPD come to.an end in 30s or 40s but NPD never end. What am I missing?

[@cinsifrit9860]

There is only one diagnosis in ICD and it's personality disorder with an *emphasis*

[@jennifermerritt1985]

Great interview!

[@marylacapp7262]

20:39 . How is it possible to be and stay in 'love', when one then questions ones actions /feelings towards a partner, whether it's worth being in the others life, because of the pain one inflicts/ or will inflict on a partner , even if there is no intention to do that. So complex. It does make one consider not to be in any relation, to prevent the hurt, for both parties. 😢

[@broeklien3817]

not being able to form a representation of people in their circle. that hits home. Thats why their best friends never get credit for being dependable.

[@user-yn3ie6sk3i]

Love you gentlemen. Thank you. Always helping me ❣️❣️

[@michigangirl5204]

Remarkable insight! Thank you!

[@Craig07L]

Excellent video. I lived with a diagnosed BPD woman for 11 years and many of this is familiar to me. What I did find is that once she reached her mid 40s her bouts of bad behaviour became more sporadic and her general moods more regulated. At this same time she became perimenopausal which leads me to the obvious question: Is the waning of a woman's BPD in her mid 40s possibly caused by hormonal changes that usually happen to women around this same time of their lives or is this just coincidental? Thank you in advance.

[@rickknight3823]

Great question, and one that I believe can fixed by diet and lifestyle changes...

[@jbuntine1255]

59:08 My marriage was transactional l worked he didn't,. At least we didn't club each other over the heads. Thank you great interview..

[@Dirt11728]

Dating two Borderline women are enough to make me run at the thought of them having bpd... And this is coming from a man who has 4 symptoms of BPD. I'm also a 43 year old man and dated a 29 year old borderline and he's right... You have an understanding and can call them out and hold them accountable that they are somehow drawn to as long as the call outs stay private....

[@DJCHomestay]

It sounds to me that when Prof. Ed Dutton was talking about the BDP woman who would suddenly regress to a younger age and represent as a young girl with an American accent he may have been mistakenly talking about a girl with DID who had been misdiagnosed with BPD. I noticed a little bit of bewilderment when he made this remark (almost as if he believed the BPD woman was pretending or just being silly) and Prof. Vaknin did agree that BPD's can regress but I think he may have known that Prof. Dutton was actually stepping into DID with his example. The fact that the woman suddenly "became" a young a girl with an American accent should have been a big indicator that DID may be in the mix and not shrugged off as "Oh, those BDP's, they do and say some crazy stuff". A specialist in DID would probably have a lot to say on this comment. I could be way off on this as maybe BPD's do present this way sometimes and I just need to read up more on it and educate myself.

[@samvaknin]

Search the channel for "switching" and for self states.

[@thepokergod1980]

Thank you for posting this. 🙏

[@joeskwara5823]

My 45 year old ex female friend is highly borderline. Fits 6-7 of the traits and that includes rage amnesia and paranoid ideation. No ability to love any other adult other than her kids. Her mother is nuts and clearly wasn’t present. The list of her issues and that includes false accusations against intimate male partners is lengthy. I had to do a list of reasons why I shouldn’t be friends with her anymore and the list made me sad to make me think what the heck is wrong with me that I miss her

[@sunsetonsukkot]

I get the gut feeling, the interviewer either has had a borderline lover, or wants to play with that fire. Something about the questions he was asking Dr Vankin..

[@samvaknin]

Vaknin.

[@Ardepark]

You say it like it’s uncommon or something. By the time you’re reaching your 40s if you haven’t met someone with a disorder you’re not getting out much. They’re everywhere

[@zacharystone3236]

Do you believe that BPD truly “goes away” with age in most cases, or do they just mellow out enough to not outwardly appear to meet the criteria anymore? The BPD women in my family I’ve observed have definitely mellowed out with age, but they still seem prone to the black and white thinking, difficulties understanding boundaries, and acting out to an extent when under extreme stress. As someone who is likely borderline (and potentially an inverted narcissist as well if that’s possible?), I couldn’t agree more about not being attracted to other borderlines romantically. It’s always been the apparent “stability” and “strength” of the narcissist that attracts me, which most borderlines lack. Though I have had other borderlines as very close friends, as we understand each other and help each other with our (generally unhealthy) relationships with others.

[@samvaknin]

Search the BPD playlist.

[@AngelicaSecondLife]

It seems to me that both the BPD and the NPD are so closely related, Im thinking its possible to be both? (or have extras from each disorder mixed into one) My question is, as you tell us to run away and leave the Narcissist, for our own safety and mental health, is this also true of the BPD person too?

[@samvaknin]

Search the comorbidities, BPD, and shared fantasy playlists.

[@AngelicaSecondLife]

@@samvaknin I have been 'set free' since the beginning of January and I intend to steer clear anyway, she is my sister, Im healing slowly 🙂

[@chrishintz1077]

Yes! Let someone else tote the weary load (as the song goes). ;). Any port in the storm.

[@aconit3tea]

If BPD can 'go away' with age, is there suddenly no empty core anymore or are they just getting better with regulating their emotions?

[@samvaknin]

Search the BPD playlist.

[@Christynmaine]

Interesting that the borderline would self normalize around the age of 45-50 as this is the average age when menopause would occur. In my own experience I would arrange my social schedule around my menstrual cycle because I knew I would overreact, be oversensitive, highly emotional, during that time of the month. After menopause this never happened.

[@elveszettciganylany2091]

Thx

[@skydogbrasil]

Greetings from Brasil. 🇧🇷 Ia it possible the same person presenting behaviors of narcissism and borderline alternately? Cheers! 👍🏻

[@samvaknin]

Search the comorbidities playlist.

[@marylacapp7262]

27:30 Match made in heaven, yes....until the Narcisist suffocates, and the borderline pushes back or runs away.....only to return ( sometimes) to familiarity and needing a sense of security. However, this cycle often is repeated, over and over.

[@desertflower4627]

Would love to know where you stand on the grey areas between c-ptsd and BPD...

[@samvaknin]

Search the comorbidities playlist.

[@enocescalona]

HUH! I never guessed you'd actually know each other. Now am curious what is the previous one went.

[@samvaknin]

Search the vakninmusings channel for “Dutton”.

[@VF-do7mw]

If there is nobody there to organise the self states, just empty core, do those states emerge as "false" self reacting to inner and outer circumstances? Is it posible to access the empty core and somehow adquire healthy organising principle to take over the funciones which self states fulfill? Is fear of emptiness conectected to fear of death and non existing?

[@samvaknin]

Watch the video about IPAM.

[@VF-do7mw]

Thank you very much, very helpful to relate and very condensed. That inner resistence you mentioned is so immense and tricky, and seeming unknown, always changes ways, so how can one check if new narrative is being or has been hijacked again, sort of self deception check? I could almost be sure that it will be hijacked, so would it make sense that constant creation and change/destruction of narrative is nessesary process in order to contradict influence of the automatic responses which entraps us? Funny IPAM has same acronym like IP Address Management, but this one is for human mind:) Thank you Thank you Thank you

[@broeklien3817]

so as a friend of an MPD person you are pushed to take on the role of a narcissist whether you like it or not. you either become their mother/lover or you pull the plug on it. nothing in between...?

[@renejakob8466]

What happens to a borderline at 45 who goes into spontaneous remission with her empty schizoid core? How does this core differ from a core from a healthy person whose core has been active throughout life? Do all other symptoms also disappear?

[@samvaknin]

Search the BPD playlist.

[@jhottenstein5006]

Sam, brother, if I might ask a question ? do you believe that the only sort of narcissistic-leaning-cluster-B individuals that can be with, long term, borderline-leaning individuals are the ones that are willing to change and adapt themselves to be that person the borderline feels they need? Or is therapy the answer to everything

[@samvaknin]

Search the BPD playlist.

[@loreleynavia7671]

@samvaknin Could bpd have a healthy relationship, how?

[@samvaknin]

No.

[@loreleynavia7671]

​@@samvakninor how I could contact You, please?

[@user-np8ev5uj2e]

Professor Sam Vankin, if u can't win with the borderline CAN U with a Narcissist n if not what's the difference?

[@samvaknin]

Vaknin.

[@user-np8ev5uj2e]

@@samvaknin I'm sorry Professor 4the name typo! 4give me, my blurry old eyes!!

[@dextermorganbloodspattersp6382]

DEM ah TALK We ah Learn 🦅🏆😎

[@OlympianVenus]

@Sam Vaknin can a borderline be attracted to a much younger narcissist as well?

[@samvaknin]

Yes.

[@TheIsraelProphetess]

Yes. He has explained that before.

[@randideelancaster9904]

Is this like "favorite person "

[@samvaknin]

Yes.

[@gabrielWachong]

Every woman i ever dated 😂😂

[@danielruiz6875]

B O R D E R L I N E

[@Nikitaxo24]

Can i clraify something. Are you saying having autism as a female therefore leads to trauma due to rejection..so for coping mechanisms could look like bpd?

[@samvaknin]

Or like narcissism.

[@nadezdacox6005]

My narcissistic partner likes to comment on my cooking. He says:" It's good but you should put more paper next time". He does it every time. A few weeks ago, he asked me to make a meat loaf, i told him he didn't like something about it last time, so he should make it himself, and everyone can enjoy it. He said "no." 😅

[@brodaymonday2367]

Poor Ed😂. I’m 100% certain he’s a self diagnosed BPD who had his heart shattered by his BPD ex and is looking to find and possible chance to justify that they’re meant to be. He’s way too hung up on seeing if someone with BPD can be attracted to someone else who has BPD and seems to refuse the unlikelihood of it. My ex has bpd and the only reason our relationship worked is because I treated her far worse than any narcissist is capable of. Never told her I loved her over the 3 years we were together and always stayed detached. The reason we ended is because she wanted a deeper relationship and I denied it because there’s 0 chance any sane individual would take the marriage risk especially with someone that has BPD