Boss BF-2 vs HF-2 - What's The Difference?

[@markhammer643]

A well-designed flanger should be able to sweep over a delay range of at least 30:1 in order to achieve dramatic slow sweeps. Both the BF-2 and HF-2 have sweep ratios of about 13:1. What the...? The Panasonic pairing of an MN320x bucket brigade chip and MN3102 clock generator provides a pleasingly compact and simple means of getting a swept delay. The trouble is that the Panasonic delay chips have a fairly high input capacitance on the pins that receive the clock pulses from the 3102. Ideally, those pulses should be crisp and as close to square as possible, in order to have a nice instant "handoff" from stage to stage in the delay chip, and provide a continuous audio stream, with no audible gaps. And they do...until you get around to about 100khz (as the datasheet for them indicates). At that point, what *ought* to be a nice crisp pulse gets a little smudged, and more like a sloped trapezoid than a square. Think of the effect of that capacitance as being like the "tone suck" of a long guitar cable that introduces too much cable capacitance. There's no issue with stuff between, say, 200hz and 800hz, but once you start sending out higher frequency content, such cables tend to eat it up. The same is true of the 320x/3102 combo, when it comes to higher clock frequencies In the same way that proper buffering can help a player to run 50ft and longer cable with no signal loss, better flangers will also provide *buffering* between the clock and delay chip to allow the clock to successfully feed pulses to the delay chip at frequencies higher than 100khz. The stock BF-2 can only sweep from about 13msec down to a minimum delay of 1msec. If we wanted to get truly dramatic "jet place" sounds, we'd want to drop that minimum delay down to maybe 300 *micro* seconds (0.33msec), which would give us a 43:1 sweep ratio. (NOTE: The highly esteemed A/DA flanger sweeps from 14msec down to 0.33msec, a 42:1 sweep ratio). By using an MN3204 and halving the number of stages, the HF-2 attempts to address two issues. First, it chops the overall delay time in half, now going from 6.5msec down to 0.5msec. Not *quite* 0.33msec, but a little better. Being able to achieve a shorter minimum delay time means the sweep can seem to come from "out of the stratosphere", rather than providing that constant tanky tone of the BF-2. Second, bandmates need a bass to always sound "on pitch", in order to have a good sense of harmonies, and important guitar/bass note meshing. So, while chorused bass sounds nice, obvious pitch wobble in the bass is disorienting, Cutting the *maximum* delay time in half reduces audible pitch wobble. The "chip swap" in the HF-2 allowed BOSS to make something a little more compatible with bass, without having to redesign much more than the legending and chassis color. Personally, when I build a flanger or chorus for myself, I include a bass-cut switch for the wet signal, that allows the same sweep of time delay, but moves the low end of the delay signal a little more to the background, so any residual pitch wobble doesn't stick out as much. BOSS *could* ave done that, but like I said, a simple chip swap simplified things for them.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Wow. What a great bit of information for us! That makes a lot of sense but I never considered it before. I need to process all of this, especially the bass player pitch element, as a big fan of flanger on my bass.

[@markhammer643]

@@StompboxBreakdown Thanks. I had an article in Premier Guitar magazine several years ago about a lot of this, titled "Behind the Bucket Brigade". It may be of interest to some folks here. I like to describe the ideal flanger as sounding like it "infects" signal. It is able to do this when it can sweep down to very very short delay times. At those shortest times, the notches created are generally well above what most guitar amps and speakers can reproduce, and above what many can hear (after enough gigs!). As the sweep goes from shortest delay time to longest, the notches not only become more numerous, but also more audible as more and more of them fall within hearing and speaker range. There's a where-the-heck-did-THAT-come-from element to it, which is why I describe it as "infecting" the signal. With shortest delays of 1msec, as in the BF-2, there is never any point in the sweep when there DON'T seem to be lots of notches. That's fine if you want to use it primarily for chorus-like sounds. But if you want "the big swoop", you need minimum delays shorter than 1msec. I realize that the difference between 1 millisecond and a third of a millisecond doesn't seem like very much, but it really makes the difference between an impressive flanger and a mediocre one. The HF-2's ability to hit a *half* millisecond moves things in a better direction. Unfortunately, it doesn't retain the 13msec maximum delay of the BF-2, so it can sweep *higher* than the BF-2, but never sweeps as low.

[@mykelc205]

Recommend a flanger pedal.

[@markhammer643]

@@mykelc205 Depends what one needs from it, or how one uses it. For instance, some folks like "thru-zero" flanging for that dizzying where'd-the-sound-go tone. For that, I'd point to the EQD Pyramids, the EHX Flanger Hoax, Chase Bliss Spectre, Alesis Phlngr, or Line 6 Liqui-Flange, all of which are tricky to get hold of or out of production. The Pyramids, Phlngr, and Liqui-Flange have a broad assortment of modulation options, that can get you novel and unique sounds. For classic slow dramatic jet plane sweeps, it is hard to beat the A/DA Flanger or analog EHX Electric Mistress. My first flanger was the old PAiA Phlanger; a 5-knobber with expression/voltage control jacks for speed and 'center' (manual delay). I have a pair of old Boss BF-1 flangers, whose dry-mix resistor I lifted. Using a splitter/mixer box I made, I can treat one of them as the 'dry' signal with a fixed (but adjustable) delay to achieve thru-zero as the other modulated delay passes it in time. Adjustable manual delay means I can set how far and long the modulated one sweeps 'past zero' before swinging back again. And if I let *both* sweep, the thru-zero point moves around randomly. Of course, that's three pedals, not one.

[@frankfrank7921]

This read like a friggin' dissertation...and I loved every moment of it!

[@hawkmoon2697]

And now we call on Boss to release a BF-2W Wazacraft Flanger which has the HF-2 in its custom mode.

[@backlom]

Fantastic explanation. I’ve been waiting for your video all week. Now the wait continues. Perhaps I shouldn’t have binged your catalog.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Hahaha! I’m making them as fast as I can! Day job gets in the way. Anything in particular you’re looking for on the next one?

[@backlom]

@@StompboxBreakdown nothing in particular. Just like how you produce your videos. I’m still offering to send a Deja Vibe to you to complete your year of the vibe. You just have to promise to mail it back.

[@randysutton2120]

I was thinking the same thing!

[@_stitch]

Another superb video with a brilliantly explained "how it works", you're really getting into your stride with these. Also enjoyed the gut shots of the pedals along with an explanation of what is different/why that matters. Funny you mention about "talking too much", I enjoy your spoken work more than any other gear channel on youtube. I think because it is concise and well presented. You don't witter, there's no filler or pentatonic widdling or a litany of ums and irrelevant content. I'm guessing there's a lot of script writing going on in the background, because the delivery is just top notch.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Oh man, I can't tell you how much that means to me to hear. Thank you so much. There *is* a lot of writing and refining. I start with an outline, then slowly morph it into a script as I figure out how I want to articulate a point. If I do it right, by recording time, everything flows with minimal friction. Glad to see the work is being appreciated.

[@macsarcule]

OMG, THIS IS THE CLEAREST EXPLANATION OF A COMB FILTER. EVERRRRRRR. Not to mention a clear explanation of the “jet woosh” as a bonus once you find out what a comb filter does. This was a killer education on a favorite effect for me. The Boss flanger flavor isn’t my thing, but that flanger-friendly jam was! This video was pure awesome for anyone who wants to understand what that circuit is really doing!

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Thank you so much!!

[@jaxfam7036]

Great video! The BF-2 is a GREAT flanger and one of my "go to" pedals over the past twenty something years. I had been looking for comparisons with the HF-2 and your video came just in time! And you really nailed the technical description of flanger.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Glad you dug it! The BF-2 was my first ever guitar pedal. Got it because I loved the way it sounded with amp distortion at the music store. Today, my favorite is the MXR-117, but I had a lot of fun re-exploring the Boss one here.

[@adrianjaramilloman]

"the flanger to play when your band is ... never mind" hahahah great! BTW the high band flanger sounds fantastic, in my ears it sounds lusher than the BF2, both are incredible pedals though! thanks for the very detailed explanation!

[@TheAmazingSnarf]

thank you SO much for taking the time, effort, and expenditure to physically show us what we're hearing. i'm sure it isn't easy being any kind of investigator, or heaven forbid, *educator* in this environment. i, for one, have gratitude. my brain feels bigger after spending time here. lurid pedal-abuse storytime: it's the mid-90's, in a small Midwest city. for reasons unknown, my noise/industrial/improv/art expression trio is asked to play the local late-night coffeehouse. this was the kind of place that usually hosted acoustic guitar Grateful Dead sing-alongs. okay. set and setting. we load in a selection of gear for the evening (multiple Peavey bass combo amps, Roland drum triggers, a small 4 channel PA, and various rackmount effects, each distributed according to the task). leftover were a couple of Boss effects- fine, we'll use the phaser on the drums, but what to do with the purple flanger? hmm... well, let's run it on the output of the PA, so the entirety of the band's signal is flanged. perfect. let's rokk!! this has been Weird Crap We Did in the 90's, with your host, Jammy

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Hahaha, flanger everything!!!

[@nine9whitepony526]

Man that was a very cool interesting video. First time visiting your channel and I subscribed. Looking forward to watch and binge watching more videos

[@HH-js9ps]

I am a big fan of your channel because of the words and all the technical analysis. And that should mean something since your playing is very good too. Just keep the great work and don't let the haters get under your skin.

[@nilocm6365]

really in-depth explanation and i appreciate your thoughtfulness to explain this. you deserve more subs brother! cheers

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Thank you so much

[@MatthewJacobDaniel]

Love the talking for an educational video. Simple reviews without talking are great too. I love having options. I learned from this lesson video. Thanks man 👍🏻

[@al271987]

It’s nice to finally know the difference and hear it side by side! I have always loved the BF-2, it gets a bit buried under all the MXR 117 and Electric Mistress love, but Prince, the Cure and the Cult could’ve had those pedals too, yet they went with Boss. I don’t have my BF-2 any more, but I do have a TC Electronics Thunderstorm and to these ears it’s identical.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

MXR 117 is my all-time favorite. I don’t use flanger a lot, but when I step on it, I want it to be super thick and chewy.

[@al271987]

@@StompboxBreakdown I dig the 117 tone for sure, but mine had a volume drop when engaged. Maybe that was just the one I had but it was enough for me to sell it when I wanted to finance another purchase. I’ll have to try another one at some point.

[@SpacetimePilgim]

Amazing video. This channel will be big eventually.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Thank you! I hope.

[@dt9r]

perfect explanation of the comb filter, my compliments

[@stockholm1752]

Thanks for this excellent explanation. I’ve always wondered why I prefer the HF-2.

[@ShaneGelven]

This was brilliant! well done

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Thanks Shane, I appreciate it

[@msmoniz]

I still have a made in Japan Boss HF-2 i scored used back in the mid 90's when they were out of production for $50. Considering the extra premium the market puts on pre-Taiwan made in Japan Boss pedals, I scored myself a bit of a collector's item!

[@Dantefran]

The youtuber we need :)

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Thank you so much!!

[@Dantefran]

@@StompboxBreakdown what do you think of Digitech Dirty Robot? It's part of my sound

[@StompboxBreakdown]

I haven't played one, but I've watched Andy's demo more than a few times and it looks downright amazing. I've considered trading in my Boss SY1- for it.

[@4headgaming448]

Great video!

[@cameronchristensen8652]

My fave so far

[@mattgilbert7347]

Oh man, someone else who listens for modulation in urban/industrial settings!! So cool.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

All the time. So many at airports and highway underpasses.

[@andym2612]

Middle A(440Hz) is on the 5th fret of small E string. The note that was played was 220Hz and the A string open is 110Hz.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Oh dang you’re right. Thanks for that.

[@andym2612]

@@StompboxBreakdown All cool.

[@analogalien]

Bravo! Nice job. And you don't talk too much. You did a fine job of explaining both.

[@grrnoise]

omg i love you

[@helisoma]

I prefer the HF-2 but should i get a Strymon Orbit instead?

[@deanallen927]

Hi; looking at the HF on Reverb. I remember trying one at Guitar Center when they were new and liking it because it wasn't too weird or out of control like other flangers. Now I'm seeing that some (all?) require 12 volts - not a deal breaker, but is that all or some of them, and how do you usually handle pedals with an odd voltage?

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Check my latest video on the PH-2r. Older ACA pedals can be modified pretty easily. Or even if you don’t feel like soldering, just daisy chain them next to a PSA Boss pedal.

[@stevenharrison4580]

My hf-2 isn’t going anywhere bar back on board

[@rutgeremm1909]

You did not play a = 440 Hz, you played 220 Hz. Thx for this great video!

[@WillBrahm]

Fantastic video and info, thank you!

[@ryanrowe9559]

Over the past few months I've started toying around with playing bass, and so far flanger is my favorite modulation effect on Bass. Pair it with some dirt, and it can add this real low rocket engine sort of sound that i just really love.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Oh absolutely! When I was playing guitar in a heavy rock band a few years ago, our bass player had just a tuner, distortion, and flanger. Totally makes sense now.

[@CellShadedVisual]

I know you love your choruses and flangers so you should check out the Alexander F.13 pedal. Very cool pedal!

[@frankfrank7921]

Very interesting. I've had both and still have the HF2 (MIJ). Always wondered what exactly made them sound different and heard all the theories but nothing like opening the boxes up and taking a look.

[@reviewerman9786]

Nice jam

[@SuperHorseSense]

I personally think the HF-2 blows the BF-2 out of the water. The high band one sounds more like a deluxe electric mistress, aka the greatest flanger of all time.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Amen!!

[@TUBOIMAGEM]

Boss BF-2 uses the MN3207 chip with 1024 BBD cells, has a longer delay and is more aggressive, EVH style Boss HF-2 Uses MN3204 chip with 512 delay cells, has shorter delay, subtler effect, David Gilmour style. Series made only in Japan. So they are not the same and sound very different.

[@mkv2718]

remember, the guitar is actually a transposition instrument, meaning that the written notes on the musical staff do NOT actually represent the correct tones. However, because the guitar is written an octave up from the actual notes that are playing, so the notes have the same letter name, most people don’t realize that this is the case. the point being, the “A” that you played (as at least on comment already pointed out) is NOT 440hz, but 220hz. the 440hz “A” is the 5th fret “A” on the high “E” string. …and yes, this is the case for the bass guitar too. If the bass weren’t transposed, most of the notes would be below the staff, and it would be reeeeally annoying to write for. in fact, this is the reason the guitar is transposed as well. if it was written in a way where the notes actually corresponded to the proper frequencies, most of the 1st position notes would either be in bass clef, or between bass and treble clef. you’d have to use something weird like baritone clef or something. it’s just easier to write the guitar in treble clef by transposing all the notes up one octave.

[@martyfriedman86]

great explanation. thank you for this!

[@StompboxBreakdown]

You got it, Martín!

[@ngle]

Despite my poor knowledge of English, I was able to enjoy a crystal-clear and entertaining presentation about a pedal whose technical solutions and sound characteristics didn't interest me at all. Great guitar playing in the video too!

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Thank you so much, it made my day to read that.

[@lofijunky]

so informative. thanks for this!

[@hailmaryrecordings8255]

Cool Sub Pop shirt. I lived near the offices for a couple of years and remember them taking stuff out of it in-2005/2006? Seattle was awesome until the mid-2000’s. Then it just became unlivable for artists. My ex-wife still lives there, and that’s another drawback.

[@ushnicyuvnikof2748]

HF-2 all day - every day!

[@himbimbly]

When you realize the MW2 challenge completed sound is probably a flanger

[@michael_caz_nyc]

I still love my Mooer E-Lady. It just works with my Police-show ( I use it with a FTT Tri Avatar Multi-Chorus and a Boss DD-500 ). I had the MXR, Retro-Sonic. I'd love to get my hands on a Hartman. Nice comparison.

[@zombiemosher1139]

I have the Mooer knockoff & it's similar to the HF-2 buy I heard that Boss based the HF-2 off of the EH Mistress.

[@waynegram8907]

What is causing the Phantom frequencies and phantom overtones? you mentioned phantom ghost tones that the flanger pedal is creating

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Sweetwater has a good page up all about the Comb Filter effect: www.sweetwater.com/insync/what-is-it-comb-filtering/ This is what happens when an audio signal meets up with a very slightly delayed version of itself. Certain frequencies get boosted and become resonant, and others get phased out. The result is that you can hear the effects happening all along the spectrum of frequencies you would normally hear. That's what I meant by phantom frequencies and overtones.

[@paulbellamy2810]

One thing worth mentioning, but it would have been off topic for this video - is the BF-2 can be made to sound very close to the CE-2. There's a little more top end stuff on the BF-2 but the similarity is clear.

[@zombiemosher1139]

My HF-2 has been my go to for the last 20+ years purely cause its the one I saw for a good price but I quickly realised my flanger sounded different from the ones mates had. I have many variations from pedal to rack flanger but the HF-2 is king.

[@mykhedelic6471]

You da man. Keep talkin and drawin. And er'thing else. Haters can scram.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Thanks!!

[@BennieTarrMusic]

AWESOME!!!

[@wesmitchem825]

This is a great episode I have both flangers though I already knew the difference I prefer the hi band it seems to be a bit more subtle it stays out of the way and doesn't modulate pitch so much

[@rainbowslushy223]

at first i was like " they sound like flangers......great i guess?...." but i definitely prefer the hi freq one . i like the less craziness

[@Fuhgitboutit]

Do you have any preferred settings with the bf2? Im always trying to see how others use it

[@CalitranoN]

Ok, but what about on leather or cloth? same issue?

[@StompboxBreakdown]

For… a guitar strap? I really like the vegan leather ones that Couch makes

[@CalitranoN]

thanks, but youtube messed up my comments LOL... @@StompboxBreakdown

[@ciclosonico]

very cool informative video, bravo! +1 subscribed :)

[@FacePaster]

thanks for this video, but all your example frequencies are twice as high as they should be. For example the A you played (middle A) is 220Hz not 440Hz. 440 is the A one octave higher than the one you played. Same for the low E and the high C - the frequencies you gave were too high by a ratio of 2:1 - doesn’t take away from your main point in this great video, just a humble correction on an otherwise great video.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Thanks for that. Yeah, someone else pointed that out. I’ll pin the comment.

[@eath2496]

Man i was on reverb eyeing the boss bf-2 or 3 wondering which one i should get that sounds better on my 12 stribg electric. Now I'm adding the hf-2, man im tempted to get both the bf 3 abd hf-2 and see which i like my on the 12. Thank you for the informative video, my wallet my not lol

[@StompboxBreakdown]

I’m nothing if a bad influence. Btw, I bet the HF-2 would sound amazing on a 12 string.

[@eath2496]

@@StompboxBreakdown update i got it, a great birthday present to myself and it's fantastic

[@StompboxBreakdown]

@@eath2496 Awesome. Happy Birthday!! 🎈🎂🎁

[@markkilley2683]

I've got the hf-2 version, in almost mint condition and its box.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

You gotta get the box! Is yours sun-bleached as well?

[@markkilley2683]

@@StompboxBreakdown I've got the box and it's RGC.

[@duncansbuddy]

Nice... No, u aren't talkin to much. Thanks for sharing.

[@bryanherward4679]

Still convinced an HF-2 can replace a chorus/phaser/univibe in a pinch...it's a versatile pedal that lends it's self as a cameleon. Play the song right and you won't notice the sound is a bit off...

[@SouthAmBlues]

The HF- 2 is better than HB-2

[@koonsickgreen6272]

You talk too much... jk. Great explanation man. thank you. enjoyed it. subscribed

[@YMF1891]

Flangers are kind of weird. In a good way I suppose.

[@StompboxBreakdown]

Best definition of a Flanger I've ever seen

[@jumpingman8160]

Boss Flangers made me hate Flangers for quite a long time. Ear piercing high shrils. Then I got to goof with an Ibanez FL99 and bought it. Mellower, thick and well behaved.