BOTS and COLLUSION on Ignition/Bodog!!!

This week I focus on the state of the Ignition/Bovada games, focusing on the rampant botting and colluding that's going on. I also share my March graph and results.
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• BOTS and COLLUSION on ...
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Edited by Skuz Digital
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[@pudelinocacalat2951]

All I hear is Q Q Bro playing with the biggest whales on Earth and he can't beat them 😂 BN and SB had extremely "close" stats .... on 100 hands

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

finally an expert in the comments section. g’day lad, tell me more

[@jeffshackleford3152]

All I hear is pocket queens? I am very confused

[@sneakytucky]

trapping the cheaters was absolutly class. so so satisfying !

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

haha for one trap i prob non-sd lost 5 stacks :D

[@pitsmeout9970]

@@BenaBadBeatPoker worth

[@Roxz.1]

That AJ hand is what justice looks like

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

it was mighty enjoyable

[@aoznes]

very important and imo a topic not discussed enough. thank you for this.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

you're welcome

[@videootje86]

I love the editing and all the animated stuff: the TV at the start, the pin-up board, etc. Great stuff! 🙂

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

thank you! all down to the editor of the vids, Ricky 🙏

[@naoufelbennanismires4932]

Really well done video mate props to you for shedding light on all the craziness happening. Some of these hhs are EPIC, what a way to play the AJ!

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

ayyy cheers mate! i'm back in the UK in 3 weeks if you're gunna be around???

[@TimeHandler]

Love to see someone of your calibre taking this stuff seriously.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

thanks mate! it's very serious

[@samu5381]

bena we got have a introduction to the channel kind of video. you have such an insane background, new viewers that dont know who you are would love to know

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

interesting idea! i'm not sure what i would do if i were to do something like this. will give it some thought - thanks mate!

[@209twitch]

Bena is so tough he can beat multiple colluding players now that’s impressive!

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

hahaha making sure i show the winners

[@cookinit79]

there aren't enough cats in these videos

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

the realest comment of the year

[@hschuler7892]

babe wake up new bena vid

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

[@LiftGrind]

Great vids Ben. As someone that’s been in these games for years they are in a concerning state, glad there are a few bringing things to light.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yooooo LG, how you getting on! add me on discord or message me on skype - been ages. glad you liked the vid

[@jeffshackleford3152]

What other strangeness are you seeing in the games?

[@overbet56]

Pretty sure it’s happening in the plo games as well. Really disappointing that IG just doesn’t care to solve the problem.

[@mazovje]

plo its even easier with the blockers ;)

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

ugh yeah I’m not surprised. really sucks!

[@hankczarnecki9422]

fairly sure of this also. $10/20 PLO seems especially bad

[@acehole7147]

Iggy seems to be a site to completely avoid - why don't the high stakes regs, speak together and actually avoid the site - like when GG changed the super high stakes rake? Also, rta, do you think GTOW should implement a 30 sec delay on searches? My understanding was they got asked to do this, and Odin and some other web based sovlers said Yes, but GTOW (because it's not a Solver) said No.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

it’s really difficult to orchestrate boycotts in an anon pool sadly. I would be all for it if we could organise ofc. I also wonder whether it would even kick ignition into gear or not. as for GTOwiz I’m not really sure what they did or didn’t decide to do. I guess they don’t want to lose customers that would be frustrated with delays if they’re studying

[@kaivonhakimi1075]

do you have any updates on this? Heard from several sources that iggy has cleaned up the situation a bit

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

I haven’t I’m afraid mate - currently in europe so have no access. that sounds very positive though!

[@ArdaiThomasPoker]

hey Ben. i was playing midstakes 400-1k on party in 2014 and the biggest winners on that site were all bots, nowadays regs are better and they can handle it a bit more but still, usually bots are crushing everywhere except maybe pokerstars. reporting these colluders is pointless, all you can do is try to beat them, which is very doable by slowplaying hands, they're risking a lot more money than you do on a lot of these bluffs, usually when they bluff it's sooo obvious, they want to have higher fold equity compared to when they're trying to milk you and get a call. technically all you have to do is hit hands and you will get paid, try not to play dominated hands, just pairs and suited Ax with them multiway, they will try to bluff you a lot more than usual. the strategy really is you folding more of your big blinds and preflop opens in order to play less hands that are shitty multiway and if they don't adjust to that fact, they're going to run into sets/nfd too often. the tough colluders are the guys that use only 2 accounts and play very well overall, just using combo of 3bet+4bet higher frequency and don't mess much with obvious postflop ridiculous moves. these ones you posted are insanely obvious. in order to catch the real pros cheating you need hundreds of thousands of hands to see their own 3bet+4bet against each other compared to the field. cheers Ben. i like your content

[@bozokymarton179]

How could bots win when even PIO wasn't even around?

[@ArdaiThomasPoker]

@@bozokymarton179 very good russian players had programed these bots. they played phenomenally also, russian players had solvers way before PIO came out i learned solver strategies in 2013 from top regs on stars by buying hand histories available at that time. OTB_redbaron, ICEMAN2710, Trueteller, and many others just to name a few.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

thanks for the post mate. i do agree that there are ways to exploit the bots in individual hands, but when you take into consideration all these tiny pots, for example, a spot where you open AJo in MP and BB just folds. vs CO call, BTN call, BB call. you're just so rarely going to win these pots. Yes, in big pots where things align you will win, but the amount we're bleeding without even realising it (particularly WWSF in my sample has plummeted from like 51 to 48). that isn't to say there are ways of really destroying these players, and maybe some people are - but overall this is such a negative scenario for online poker

[@panthera99-l8s]

You will play many mutiway pots and you will lost most of them. If colussion guys are skilled (pros) you dont have a chance to beat them in longrun. U have to avoid those kind of games, been there too. Similar Vpip, playing many trash hands, blockers bluff…all u showed pure collusion.

[@sergiocarrasco9762]

This seems very realistic. Today Mobius Poker made a podcast and talked about a guy that managed to exploit the bots and got banned (which is suspicious, suggesting that the bots are hosted by the site). Bots are overfolding vs agression and similar, so basically you exploit them by doing the opposite of the meta (over3bet, over4bet, over5bet..., etc.)

[@Assi9910]

The hands you reviewed are on ignition or pokerstars didn’t get it says on info down below pokerstars can you send please answer

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yeah hem’s a bit weird like that sometimes. these are ignition but the replayer May Day stars

[@teeraw-vt5gc]

ive never played on ignition but if theyre playing super wide vpips and know you cant have certain hands or atleast are blocking you from having strong hands then surely theyre massively overbluffing and folding 2pairs / sets vs them is basically criminal no? Proper adjustment seems to call them down super light but ive never dealt with colluders before just an idea

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

tbh it’s less the big pots, more the infinite small ones where you’re going multi-way/getting squeezed when you shouldn’t. this is the main thing that haemorrhages your winrate

[@Awre18]

Did you realize in-game? or while looking at Hand History afterward? also are you going to be moving volume off of ignition? I play in a ring fenced pool there is 100% collusion anywhere 200nl or above, but we only have a select few sites so i have no experience with ignition.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

many of them i suspected in hand. the AJ i pretty sure mid hand and when i saw showdowns i was 99.9% sure. i have reduced my volume there yes. fenced in pools definitely so much better when it comes to cheating cus its hard for people not to get caught.

[@jeffshackleford3152]

I don't know how to explain it, but when I ran into the same situation. I had the same feeling / whisper in my brain that I get when somebody is trying to hustle me. Then I noticed the weird plays and I made them show cards one time and it was definitely very odd. Then afterwards I did the same thing Bena did, where I checked the cards. There is no way people are consistently jamming bottom pair on a super scary board, like 4 flush 4 straight boards.

[@draewilly]

Idk how you say benabadbeat in one syllable. I'm trying at home but can't do it haha. I've been reading/watching since ur pg&c thread all those years ago. Love all ur content man

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

lmaoo it just rolls of the tongue mate. wow, long time poster, love to hear that. thank you for sticking it out with me for all these years!

[@merelification]

I see these types of patterns for almost two years ,at different sites aswell , including pokerstars . At first I thought I was paranoia / not working enough on my game / people becoming suddently uber good etc , so I switched sites .. and the same pattern . Bassically they deploy " fake" whales and "fishes" which are somehow playing "omaha 4 or 6" vs you who play holdem . ( check out theyr combinations in video for a basic idea) They bluff you constantly / they use the other blockers aswell / They float you and then donk-jam river . At times .. you make the hero-call vs these lines,because it doesn't make sense .. and see the "fish" is turning a ridiculous 2nd pair into a bluff .. and you think to yourself .. "Ohh .. he must've been overplaying " , but it's not ( he uses his 2ndPair that blocks sets & other 2pairs + the blockers from the others). Other times , they "prepare" the pot preflop for the other colluder thru "the whales" if that makes sense so they "cooler" the s.hit out of you / they cook the perfect cooler .. and you staying there wondering " how can I fold this hand preflop to this 60 vpip guy " -- it's just a cooler. Another key thing Bena was mentioning , players with a decent winrate (~5bb+-) , starts to be break-even over big samples . I used to have wwsf 52 aswell , now it dropped to 48-49 .. the reason being you can't bluff either .. because they trap you aswell . So when you bluff you are bluffcatched constantly / when you try to bluff , you are rebluffed and so on --> That's the reason for the wwsf dropping down Bena !

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yep this is totally on point - thank you for taking the time to write your thoughts. a lot of people just think that it's fine cus they bluff too much and you can win big pots, but they forget the infinite tiny pots that are being manipulated. hope you continue to be careful and that things improve at some point. best of luck

[@sergiocarrasco9762]

Where are you getting the info that players are starting to have decreased winrates on ignition?

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

I’m friends with many 6-10bb winners, and have friends that run stables that have taken all their players off iggy

[@DeCeroaHeroeChess]

This has to be brought to the big dogs (PS and GG) as a serious matter from all the community. I can certainly share the same experience. Back in the day my WWSF was an outrageous 54, now a days iám a fucking nit as i can´t bluff anyone (seems so) and get coolered all the time. If i start to go aggro i get a lot of aggression back to me, like perfect aggression, it´s like nit fishes suddenly turned into "red-liner-gods" on some spots, that you can´t believe. And so on and so forth like everything you are saying.

[@merelification]

@@DeCeroaHeroeChess And it's almost like it feels "unnatural"

[@agnorax]

With this in mind are there any other options for Aus based players to play on other than ignition? I've had similar experiences at 200nl on ignition several months prior. Reported and got nothing but gaslighting from CS team and then radio silence. Similar thing with several suspicious players cold calling, back raising constantly against perceived capped ranges with whale like stats against me and other regs at the table.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

options really are limited i'm sorry to say. can try apps but rake and potential cheating is rife. live is obviously a good option if you can bear it lol

[@jeffshackleford3152]

Is this on regular tables or zone?

[@agnorax]

@@jeffshackleford3152 Regular

[@capo3rdfret]

I would like to ask a dumb question - how do you know what the hands are of all the opponents?

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

can download them in client 24 hours after they’re played on ignition!

[@henryweston8273]

I agree with everything you said, apart from the last hand where I think if they are sharing cards A6s calls pre flop, as they seem to be calling super wide. Additionally, a recreational will think the 4 liner to a straight is a decent bluff card OTR.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yeah totally reasonable outlook. it's the fact that we don't know that makes it so annoying haha

[@ashleymartin6521]

How are you getting all the other players hole cards including the ones who folded? Cheers

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

24 hours after you play hands on igntion you can download them in client. you can see all hole cards. you just need a hand converter (i use aces poker solutions ignition hand converter). gl!

[@ashleymartin6521]

Awesome thanks mate

[@drdooba5432]

think it happens way more than we realise. so many times i see players from same country (china) on GG who have similar hud stats.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

hmmm i'm not sure this type of cheating is happening on gg but obviously likely to be some shady stuff going on there too

[@TakePoker]

It's important to not project western standards of competitive integrity onto other countries. Many of the countries that we play poker with, have a much different view on cheating than we do in the west. NOT cheating to gain and edge is even mocked on looked down upon in some cultures. You can find countless articles about the culture of cheating on things like standardized tests and college exams in some eastern countries. To think that there isn't cheating going on between many of these players, for thousands of dollars, is very naive. The fact that there will be no legal consequences if they do get caught is only a bow on top.

[@jeffshackleford3152]

Similar PFR/ VPIP all that is pretty standardized if they are playing off charts. Preflop has been solved to death at this point.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

kinda true jeff, but these players aren't playing solver approved preflop strategies

[@jeffshackleford3152]

@@BenaBadBeatPoker makes sense. Who doesn't play solver ranges, other than fish? Oh... Those players are fish

[@iamthepandaemperor3576]

I play on Igition (don't have a lot of $ on there). I mainly just play 500NL and 200NL (I play up to 2k on other sites). Is it worth playing on Igition at all? I think it's very soft, but I am not sure how common cheating is happening and if I can have a decent WR despite of cheating or not (meaning cheating is infrequent enough). What's your take?

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

hey mate - my take would be to use your winrate/intuition/hand sharing with friends as a way of deciding if it is worth your time. only you can really make that decision. i still play there a bit because i can't get many tables at 1k+ in aus but i'm increasingly thinking it isn't worth the uncertainty

[@2goodbro]

Hey there, how do you get access to the whole cards like this? Thanks

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

you can dl hands in client 24 hours after they happen and they show you all hole cards

[@ezequielvinardi493]

Hi Ben! where do you get so much rakeback from?

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

all my sites, but gg is the highest

[@SuhendraLie]

Curious question how come we can see all of the villains hole cards? Can anyone answer?

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

on igntion you can download all players cards 24 hours after the hand has been played in client. you can then use a hand converter to format these hands to import to your tracker to look at all showdowns. this has always been the case on ignition!

[@SuhendraLie]

@@BenaBadBeatPoker fascinating! This sounds all new to me as I've only played classic and zoom tables on GG and PS. If ignition client allows downloading all player cards that sounds a lot of too much a breach of privacy, scary

[@thehboppa]

Definitely looks pretty dogy, though it was 100x worse on the Chinese apps back in the day. We're talking 5 team players at each table, all players VPIP flop and turn and then every river is bet/raised/called/overcalled/backjammed etc. Highlight of my career was making a nut straight in SB with KTo, having 3 players bet raise (i call obv), backjam, rejam, call. We snap, and they table 7 high, 8 high, and J high. Stack half the table. Entire table sits out immediately next hand. :|

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

lmaoooo that hand sounds outrageous. and yeah also seems a lot worse on apps

[@ryanshaw8663]

Is this only going on at these high stakes on Ignition? Or low/micro too?

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

i don't know for certain but i'd guess not happening at the micros much. happening a bit at 100 or 200 and happening a lot at 500+

[@gsomethingsomething2658]

@@BenaBadBeatPoker But... it would certainly make as much sense for cheats to do it at the micros if they are from countries with a low cost of living. The hourly would be much lower, but the player pools are vastly larger, so they might not get noticed. Bear in mind that even $2 per hour is a way-above-average wage in some countries.

[@haowenqu9683]

How were you able to view all hole cards in HM3? Thought only showdowns are visible 😢

[@ezequielvinardi493]

Ignition is anonymous pool. You can download the hands after 24 hours and see the hole cards.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

using the client to download the hands 24 hours after they're played and using a hand converter to import them to hem! i use aces poker solutions ignition hand converter

[@haowenqu9683]

@@BenaBadBeatPoker Thanks for your reply! I'll try it out. Earlier it will only show hero and villain's hand but not everyone else's

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

that’s because you didn’t convert them

[@garyblackwoodpoker]

Ayyyy

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

laaad

[@Paulo-x2g]

the AJ hand was a masterpiece. WP

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

tyyyyyy

[@dennisivanov3384]

I pretty much exclusively play Zone, do you think this is enough to reduce the risk of collusion/RTA on these sites or is it still vulnerable to cheating?

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

i have heard there are people colluding at zone but i haven't experienced that first hand so can't really comment. I would have to say that it has to be safer though due to time banks being so short

[@dennisivanov3384]

@@BenaBadBeatPoker yeah, I haven’t seen anything super suspicious and it would seem to be quite difficult to do so, so I’ll continue for now

[@Alex_Hart]

I remember when that site was pure heaven. getting rid of the lobby and pure anom killed it

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

i heard about the golden days in iggy!

[@mjrnj]

What do you mean "getting rid of pure anonymous"? How are ignition players not anonymous anymore?

[@0Varune0]

@@TimeHandler If the other guy sees the deck in different suits, then a nutflushblocker, still is a nutflushblocker?

[@TimeHandler]

@@0Varune0 good point! It seemed* a good idea haha

[@Alex_Hart]

@@mjrnj back in the day it was not ANON; im talking almost 10 years ago

[@phrog6073]

def some damning evidence, esp with the aj hand i cannot imagine a world where they werent colluding, sucks that the site doesnt give af

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

haha yeah the AJ hand was ridiculously obvious. yeah the site doesn't care apparently!

[@themathemagicchannel]

That back raise is so clearly collusion, I have that on some online apps. Bots take 5-8secs to play, they have set sizings, slow play oop a ton, find the weirdest check raises and I never sit when there’s more than 1, I wreck them heads up and leave, or the operator takes them offline 😅

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

haha yeah the back raise was pretty ridiculous. playing hu is a great idea too gl!

[@ReallyDavid01]

The fact they have anonymous names has literally always sketched me out. If I had an alternative I'd play on another site, but I don't.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yeah i feel you mate. product of circumstances for many of us

[@KamaKeith]

Very interesting. I always ascribed it to terrible play but now I have my doubts.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

haha I think there’s plenty of bad play too 🤣 but yeah very suss stuff

[@marcong1411]

why u can see the hole cards of other players?

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

you can download the hands played on ignition 24 hours after they’re played. they show you everyone’s hole cards

[@alexandertaylor7169]

Is that a portrait of Mount Doom in the background mate?

[@rafaelsinn4721]

Looks like Vulcan de Fuego in Guatemala

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

it's a photo i took from volcano acatenengo in 2018! it's of vulcan de fuego

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

@rafaelsinn4721 have you been?

[@rafaelsinn4721]

@@BenaBadBeatPoker yeah I've been there two years ago, truly magical place!

[@GTOfishh]

I think the most important thing is to gather enough data to try to prove or disprove statistically if there is cheating going on. There is no way you can do that for specific hands, no matter how obvious they might seem. I've seen players do unbelievably weird plays, to the point I was sure they were cheating. The point is, if you search long enough you will find those occasional strange plays, but only with enough data you can be "sure".

[@hschuler7892]

Yes but having hundreds and hundreds of these examples all come out this year where there weren't hundreds and hundreds of examples in years prior IS DATA.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

i've played around 10million hands of online poker, and the things that have happened on igntion over the last 6 months are like nothing i have ever seen. not to mention the ability to download hands 24 hours later and look at showdowns. you' are right that it's easier to cherry pick hands that are suss, but the cheating on ignition is actually undeniable at this point. there are just too many things lining up; collusion hh, RTA hits on GTOwiz, extremely weird meta that multiple players a day are implementing, and the biggest piece of evidence: historically 5-10bb winners having no winrate over large samples

[@GTOfishh]

@@BenaBadBeatPoker Yes very true, I also dont wanna argue against the fact that there is cheating going on. More so to be sure who exactly it is.

[@0Varune0]

78o can be a coincidence the other guy has nutflush blockers, where previously 26s and 75s were good enough to enter the pot, KTdd just seems a reg, also no-one has accrued any small pots judging from stacksizes(which those colluders would do alot imo), so don't expect the colluder to singlehandedly cc 87o oop vs 2 regs, also doens't give them the option to do their play as shown in the AJss hand, but agree still very sus Seen this type of collusion come and go on some segregrated pools/apps, once you know what they're doing, your winrate 'can' go up, but it's way harder to spot in an anon pool and takes a different kind of focus

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yeah definitely could be coincidence. but it’s also not out the realm of possibility that the colluders just sat too. what I will say is that it is extremely common for the these cheaters/colluders to cold call 3b’s with literal trash. again not necessarily this hand though - that’s why it’s such a messed up situation cus you just don’t know

[@RetroHorrorInk]

Awesome vid. ✊🏽

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

appreciate that 🙏

[@F2anc]

When there is so much collusion happening, why are you still willing to play high stakes on the site? Or do you think games can still be worth playing despite this?

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

it’s very hard to say - my sample isn’t really big enough yet to determine whether or not it’s definitely not worth playing all together. hopefully it doesn’t cost me 100k to gurus that out 😅

[@Kosgs1]

❤

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

[@birdywins]

It's interesting that ignition is so much more under the radar than gg / stars due to their private ownership and non-disclosed volume / anon setup. Definitely a purposeful strategy so there's no clear accountability in terms of CEO (e.g. at least Phil Nagy is visible re bot rings even if he doesnt do much about it). I think it goes to show some of the issues that's caused due to a lack of regulation from US/Australian governments, and the fact that players are now forced to play on dodgy app games or collusion rings such as ignition instead of regulated and taxable providers such as stars back in the day with KYC checks.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yeah totally agree - the seemingly 'undercover' way the site operates (anon tables/all crypto etc) does lend itself to dodgier practices. sadly this is largely to do with sites and governments not being able to come to agreements around creating fair play. time will tell i guess as to whether a middle ground can be found

[@PERSISTENCEPOKER]

I play PLO 500 and 1K on Iggy and ACR. I will say I have seen nothing suspicious on either site over decent sample but I hear from many sources NL is terrible for both sites in terms of cheating. Not sure why it is not the same for PLO???

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

super interesting to hear that the PLO games are seemingly OK. but yeah NL is pretty grim atm. just keep an eye out and make sure you're reviewing hands 24 hours later for suss stuff. glgl!

[@PERSISTENCEPOKER]

@@BenaBadBeatPoker yes I am super diligent about doing so, good luck to you as well, love the content!

[@weakreg6214]

some of this dont make sense to me as a collusion or card sharing... like for example the 78o hand with the A6s and kt, if they are colluding I would guess that the guy with the A6s has a preference to cc over the 78o no?? so thats really weird but for sure some of this is supicious like the AJ hand wtf

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yeah honestly a lot of the cheating doesn’t need to make sense because of the % of the time they win hands. my wwsf has dropped massively last 3 months

[@hansari8697]

I was playing 1k on Ignition a guy that seemed like a reg over a decent sample just show up with the 94s cold calling a fishes 3bet out of nowhere. Hard to believe these two were colluding bc the guy I had labelled a reg stacked the fish on multiple occasions in HU pots but I found that one hand bizarre. At 500 I have noticed quite a bit of players showing up with the top of range as the 2nd or 3rd limper. I spewed off several stacks with AQ before realizing some people actually had it in this spot. Other than that no clear collusion or cheating that I have noticed. I will say I did notice an increase in cold calls though.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yeah i think there is a lot of 'advertising' going on to mislead players into thinking there are whales at the table. don't let that catch you out!

[@jeffshackleford3152]

I do increase cold call frequency when I have hands that can be nutted, like Axs or Kxs, higher pocket pairs for set mining, etc. Especially if I think I can get it multiway. Putting in 1 to win more than 1 is pretty good for the win rate.

[@hansari8697]

⁠@@jeffshackleford3152 Yea maybe you do but this is not a common strategy at mid or high stakes online cash games. Especially not in positions other than the button.

[@jeffshackleford3152]

@@hansari8697 I normally raise or fold preflop, but sometimes, you have 77 in the CO with 2 loose passive fish behind me, seems like a decent opportunity to possibly play a fish pot, possibly in position. That is pretty much the only deviations I make preflop, maybe open wider from steal positions.

[@caraciucciprian7534]

Last 2 hand😮s were very very suspicios😮

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yep!

[@ltsjack]

I don't really follow the logic of the VPIP. You're saying he can't be a fish opening 62s because he has 32VPIP and not 75, but why would the colluder open 62s if he's playing a 32VPIP range? It's the same logic, no? You could argue it's because he knows the hole cards of CO/SB but hard to see how that would incentivize opening here. Might even go as far as saying that them having 32VPIP makes it more likely for it to be a fish since we know fish don't really open linear ranges preflop, they can fold KTo in BU and then open 32s in UTG because they're card dead. I agree obviously this is all mega suspicious but even from the colluder's perspective not a lot of the plays make that much sense. Like in the last hand, if SB and BB are in cahoots why would they make the decision for the guy with A6s to fold and the guy with 87o to squeeze? Not saying there's definitely no collusion but I would just expect to see something more, let's say, sophisticated than this. Certainly, if I were in a collusion racket playing foul, this is hardly how I would go about it, and I'm sure you would say the same; so all seems a bit strange, or at least not very clear-cut.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

because at one time the colluder’s strategy wasn’t to play blockers, rather pure action manipulation. fwiw the 87o could well not have been cheating at all so in that case you could ofc be right. again you’re totally right why would a 32vpip open 62s and CO cc 75s. honestly I don’t know - but again this isn’t uncommon. I guess my question is why, if these are legit players (ie MEGA whales), why have so many good players had their winrates slashed since we noticed these odd behaviours at the tables. it’s all just very confusing tbh

[@karmababy5077]

Playing on ACR for a short period and things are off the radar suspicious. Certain accounts playing similar stats but also bizarre fishy strategies are printing just money.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

on ACR? they obviously have their own issues but at least security are (somewhat) working with poker players to remedy the issues

[@pallav5833]

Greed has no end...

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

truth

[@PBrooks111]

I've never seen this thread or mentioned and I've given out so many whale tags ignition 😂 How do they get all 5 seats on a 6max table though? For some of those removal river bluffs? Agree the q8 is clear cut cheating

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

haha yeah that's the weird thing - many of them seem like whales but it's the smaller pots you're not aware of that are mainly killing winrates. the tbl with 4-5 of them was an anomaly tbh and was back in december when it was at its worst!

[@PBrooks111]

@@BenaBadBeatPoker the check call turn aj and check call river this needs so much more love I swear. 😂 River check call is the sharkiest thing I've ever seen Anonymous poker so Fking dull and actually makes this kind of shit possible

[@PBrooks111]

Just coincidence too 500z on there like playing advanced mode in a trainer. they don't fancy the q8o from cut off anymore how weird

[@michaelb4090]

Great stuff 🎉why are you playing with these cheaters lol hopefully to call them out I’d play somewhere else 😮

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yeah moving most my volume elsewhere mate! but will still select some games

[@robertjames5418]

Get out of there brother. I left 2 months ago. Was told that basically all major stables have withdrawn their players. Rooting for you my guy! Let go of this toxic AF site

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yeah mate, so so many people have left from my understanding. definitely very toxic!

[@johnd5619]

Super unfortunate that online poker is in a state where operators really give no fucks about cheating, they really only care about making the gen pop think there is no cheating.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

in fairness im not sure we can really hold an offshore company like ignition at such a high standard lol. ofc not having OBVIOUS cheating is a low bar to cross, but apparently not :D

[@badtripvl]

At WPN bots never seat simultaneously at table more than 2 on 6max, and 3 on 9max, at least from same known bot group.But at ignition, where pool is anon, you could be sitting all around colluding bots. So it end up that the most proteсted players at anon tables are bots and all kind of shady businessmans. I think they start to rub their sweaty palms when saw that GG forbid mining. Well played "poker ecology scientiests".

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yeah all good points. such a sad state of affairs eh

[@matijaperovic2573]

i heard lot of people talking that ignition is full of bots. This just confirms it. I am suprised that Bena who is top player is playing on this kind of site. I just dont get it. Cmon just witdhraw and never go back!

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

i'm surprised that i'm still playing there too lmao. but yeah i am cutting back a lot of my volume. i''ll also be in europe for 4 months so won't have access anyway

[@mirkobattaglia5257]

Since gto w has been available things have gotten drastically worse.... They should take action

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

it has definitely helped in catching/banning some cheaters. but yeah i wonder whether this has been net + or not in poker

[@jeffshackleford3152]

These are regular tables or zone? I exclusively play 25z, and I have seen some strange happenings but nothing to this level. You may have to step down stakes and play Z tables, though at the higher stakes there may be some cheating. None of this is me telling you what to do or that you should not play at the stakes you are playing. I think you have a good handle on what you are doing. I can tell you at 25z, even though I am definitely at the bad reg level, if people are cheating, they need to buy better cheats.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

regular tables for me. yeah i imagine that there won't be cheaters at 25z so if that's your game you're chilling!

[@jeffshackleford3152]

​@@BenaBadBeatPokerI think it might be the regular tables that are the problem. I have definitely run into the situation you describe on 5nl regular tables, when I was trying them out. Where different people squeeze you out of the pot. Or they would sandwich you and just raise so the action never closes on you. I have seen it happen to a bunch of different people at regular tables at 5nl. As in new guy sits down, the 2 collusionists ( idk what they are called) do the sandwich thing and the new guy is broke.

[@jeffshackleford3152]

Zone, you have a whole different issue of what I assume are bots. Unless it is like a coaching stable of a ton of players who play exactly the same.

[@sergiocarrasco9762]

​@@jeffshackleford3152That's the case. I know several brazilian guys teaching the same strategy to their stables. Things like open raising to 3bb from BTN with the bottom of their ranges, etc. Considering that sometimes there are fewer than 50 players in the pool, most likely that a decent amount of them are brazilian guys following the same aggro strategy.

[@jeffshackleford3152]

@@sergiocarrasco9762 interesting. Does their style include jamming every flush completing turn if checked to?

[@jammflint84]

The games on ignition are too good not to play 😢 giving up some ev to cheaters is worth it imo. It is what it is. The bots are just trying to max exploit us which means they are very beatable if you can gather sample. It’s the colluding that’s annoying and it’s happening quite often

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

still trying how to figure how to max exploit haha. if you have any tips please lemme know! yeah the colluding is very annoying

[@michaelmattless1504]

UB was Ultimate Bet, not Unibet Ben :)

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

there’s an asterisk saying ultimatebet underneath as a correction!

[@Hildreth1101]

You are a Washed Reg, but they are also cheating 😇

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

haha the two are very likely true :D

[@oliver8510]

Surely these games are unbeatable when you have cheaters like that and no security team in place? Nicely done with the AJ though 😂

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

I still think probably beatable with exploit and selection but for the majority yes, unbeatable

[@G0DofRock]

I see 4 Russian guys at my table I'm like, well, you're gonna get slowrolled af

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

hahaha we’ll you don’t these are Russians, let’s not paint everyone with one brush

[@4Sight1010]

If Id be you, i would not play on bodog anymore Ben.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

definitely reducing my volume significantly mate

[@dominic02]

the ajs 100% collusion, standard move

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yep!

[@eljimberinoq5518]

You must need a lot of money to play on there.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

not for long :D

[@PhonyBologna]

If poker has taught me anything, its you need about 250k more of these hands to prove it isn't variance.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

haha, i think poker has taught you incorrectly then lad!

[@PhonyBologna]

@@BenaBadBeatPoker I'll prove it just play me "heads up" and by heads up I mean with 4 other "randoms"! In all seriousness, it was a joke. But it'd be hard to do this at lower stakes with a lot of random tables, however given the lower number of tables at high stakes itd be easy to coordinate over discord and screen sharing/etc. Even if they poker sites 'recorded' your desktop while playing it would t stop people from using a second computer or phones to share whole cards. Unfortunate state for online poker. It's why I only play 200 NL online to sharpen up then play 5/10 live locally. I know a 1k+ NL ignition player who drives 3 hours on weekends to pay the local 10/20 games that run, instead of online.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

definitely agree with you mate! poker is in a weird state right now where we're in desperate need of more sophisticated cheat-catching. hopefully over the coming months this can happen! glglglgl

[@rgee5952]

that is pure actual cheating jesus christ

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

of the purest form

[@wVLADw]

Full of cheaters. You need a refund from that shitty site

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

i heard they used to do refunds but yeah we haven't had a sniff :D

[@grantjuric1268]

Used to be 90% of my volume. Think I got off the site about 25 1k buy ins too late 😢

[@fedea82]

where do you play now?

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

ahhh sigh. hope things are going better elsewhere mate

[@johnn9977]

I like live poker very hard to cheat.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

lol yes

[@TheLazarussLedd]

Who do you think owns this bots, colluding, cheating in manners you dont even know? Pull your funds from the site like asap. Before they make excuse of taking them from you on the tables or straight up confiscate them. I could write a lot stuff on online poker sites but best keep that stuff to myself.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

very good question and not one I have a solid answer too. I’ve heard some speculation but also wouldn’t wanna point the finger anywhere without knowing for certain

[@johngriller4997]

Would put money if Imsirovic and Schindler aren’t behind at least 50% of these 😆

[@mattevans2527]

Washed

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

confirmedddd

[@kingmoka4906]

WTF this is not ignition poker!

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

what isn’t??

[@TimeHandler]

You're not seeing monsters under the bed. Colluders all over stars too.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

ripppp

[@gorydays28]

Just can't hang with these anon muricans

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

make it real name iggy!!

[@sudstahgaming]

Why are people still playing on acr, bodog and ignition stop playing there and make them address the problems.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

those are the only sites that many of us can play!

[@hschuler7892]

all likely colluders. games are fucked

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

can confirm really not great rn

[@dassosarla]

Why do you keep playing on this site if you know you re obviously getting cheated

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

have cut back my volume there massively 🙏

[@xaviercortazar736]

too much waste of mental energy during the session playing this kind of sites if you have real evidences as you have. Is better to skip those and play where you can sit and elaborate your best game. Bests of luck

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

definitely can’t argue with this at all 🙏

[@mazovje]

1000% cheating, good trapping with AJ, but dont play on this site anymore..

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

yeah one small win in a lot of loss 🤣

[@LongNguyen-ho9qf]

If this try hard can’t win at online poker what’s the point

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

lmaooo

[@itwasduke01]

why evenplay in this shiet, obv cheat.

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

cutting back my volume there for sure

[@joas162]

I would be way too paranoid to ever play on that site again 🫣

[@BenaBadBeatPoker]

paranoia setting in 🤣