Box Controllers = Cheating?

This was meant to be the first of many discussion style videos where I talk about a hot topic and get your opinion on stuff but the scope quickly grew too large so don't expect them to be an hour long each! I just have a lot to say about boxes okay!!!
The B0xx WD nerf is a Fox buff docs.google.com/document/d/1V...
00:00 - Intro
01:18 - Part 1: Personal Thoughts
05:42 - Questions
06:41 - Statistically They Are Fine (so far)
07:50 - But Stats Don't Matter
10:03 - Bobby Big "Cheaters" Ballz
13:17 - That Clip Sucks
14:39 - Playing VS Box Players
18:06 - Are Any of The Box "Nerfs" Real?
21:01 - Just Add An Analogue Stick
21:30 - Goomwaves
22:20 - Part 2: Subjective Arguments
24:16 - How Do You Nerf Every Character Equally?
30:49 - What Patch Are You Playing On Again? (feat: Joshman)
37:19 - This Is Like NG+ Controller Modding Drama
38:38 - People Are Getting Tired Of Nothing Happening
44:10 - Mango and Lucky Give Their Take
46:57 - Part 3: Box Discourse blows
54:00 - TL:DR
54:31 - How Do We Roll Out The Box Nerfs?
56:16 - What Role Does The Community Have In All This?
58:00 - All Box Players Are Cheaters Except Me
01:02:05 - Nerf Examples
01:06:21 - Skill Issue: Box Controllers Can Never Be Bad
01:07:29 - Layouts
01:09:14 - Hand Pains / Ergonomics
01:11:23 - Smash Sticks Don't Exist
#pipsqueak #melee #drama

[@TheOldSchoolCrisis]

I'm in my early 30s. The other day I decided I wanted to start practicing tech so that I could even just have fun in online Melee play for the first time in my life. (Have always loved the game but never been any good at it.) After practicing wave dashes for like 30 minutes my hands felt like they had aged another 10 years and were in legitimate pain. Literally the next morning I ordered a Boxx style controller. I will NEVER be a good competitive player, but I am not going to fuck my hands up just to enter the game at a competent level.

[@arabmunny]

bro that should not be happening lol, if that’s happening ur holding ur controller wrong or some shit bruh there’s no reason players like mango hbox and wizzy have been able to play at high level for a decade plus with gcc and have no hand problems, then u try for an hour and feel like ur hands are cooked. the problem is u not gamecube controllers lol

[@Red_Biker_Dude]

​@@arabmunny the original commenter probably got carpel tunnel in some form. Boxx was specifically designed for people like them.

[@arabmunny]

@@Red_Biker_Dude i guess, but it kinda sounded like he was just saying he has 30 year old hands. literally every top 10 player has 30 year old hands lol if u have carpel tunnel then yea go off

[@bradens.3125]

​@@arabmunnyevery body is different. often times the reason top players are top players or top atheletes are top atheletes is because they got lucky with certain genetics that allows them to have higher endurance with some parts of their body than most people. some people have higher or lower chances of getting RSI's than others, or inflammation, etc

[@realityDUBSTEP]

I agree with mostly everything you said here. Boxx controllers definitely make a lot of things more consistent (and some easier) but after playing on it for 6 months I went back to GCC because I could never do the micromovements that I could do on gcc. Since all your angles are static it feels more robotic to me. One of my favorite aspects of the game is the fluidity of movement. I know this doesn't matter in the long run as it doesn't effect competitive play but I wanted to put that out there. A lot of people have this idea that boxx controllers are just gcc with buffs but in reality they aren't and play quite a bit different which makes this a more complex issue. I don't know what the solution is but there is definitely a lot of discussions to be had in order to come up with one.

[@PipsqueakSSBM]

Yea if it was easy we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. It's super complicated and it doesn't help that everyone is mad at everyone else haha Appreciate you sharing 🙏

[@andrewferguson6901]

If we just banned notches this would've never been a problem. However, we'd play worse melee. How sick do we truly want to be

[@FortWhenTeaThyme]

We ban things when they don't represent a skill that we value. We banned items not because they're random, but because when you say "Best Melee player in the world" you don't care who is the best at using motion sensor bombs. We value instead things like game knowledge, spacing, timing, reads, and mental game. So for boxes, is the ability to maneuver the analog stick correctly something that we care about so much that it's worth banning boxes? And if it is, why do we allow notches which specifically bypass the need to be precise with analog stick positioning?

[@davedanger4414]

TOs allow notches and "everyone" uses them. I, personally, consider them cheating and I think most people should consider it cheating. Goomwaves/phobs/notches/small trigger springs are all "cheating" to me, too. Boxxes DO take away some practice/skill needed for certain moves. Notches DO take away skill/consistency. We live in a world where OEMs are rare and good OEMs are rarer still. Sadly, there will never be one answer. It's kinda like when SCUF controllers became the standard for console FPS games. They had 4 paddles on the back and you could map any button to those paddles(which means you didn't have to play claw). People who didn't want to shell out $150 were at a disadvantage. But, at least Mang0 admits that goomwaves are cheating while also using one.

[@ojgimpson]

Never forget hboxs dramatic speech where he talks about how Melee is hard for everyone (cause he kept getting made fun of for using Puff) ... except boxx players I guess? Lol

[@PERSONALEEMG]

Hahahahaha

[@tkienjoyer]

lmfao this is too good

[@incarnate1]

Good video, that brings up a bigger problem within the scene - complaining without intent of having a discussion or offering any solutions is unproductive, selfish, and self-indulgent. It's the part of the Melee community that has not matured. Everyone should watch the whole video.

[@exlordinthedude8080]

It isn't necessarily about maturity frankly. Melee has no overarching body to make decisions, so the community is stuck in a weird limbo state. When you are stuck in limbo, it sucks ass and complaining is catharsis. Being mean to players is exception of course lol.

[@ShadowThrust]

Good job approaching such an emotional debate in such a systematic and level-headed way. Even though you hold a lot of stake in this, you didn't get carried away by all the shouting and all the accusations being thrown around.

[@chairwood]

y is your pfp still mlp

[@ShadowThrust]

@@chairwood Mmh, why not? I like this picture.

[@Kool212]

I'd rather live in a world where a controller works the way it should and not just fail for no good reason. The fact that pros have to have a mountain of controllers just to find one that does what they need is just kneecapping yourself.

[@OutOfTouch_YT]

Honestly if Melee ever died its cause we can’t find gamecube controllers anymore. Lol And if I’m gonna spend a premium, it might as well be a button controller.

[@3o1j]

I know this is an old comment, but this is why I have a lot of faith in the phob because it can solve a lot of these problems, is open source so we can literally plug them in to a tester to make sure they're within legal guidelines, and are relatively accessible (as accessible as a boxx or more). I still think Boxx should be legal, but balanced around what we allow in our controllers first, get that set in stone

[@SnackZaddy]

I use a 8bitdo arcade stick Advantages: 1. My wrist can change directions faster than my thumb can, and didn't get tired as quickly. 2. I use three fingers on face buttons instead of my thumb and index which again, feels faster. 3. The buttons simply feel more satisfying to push (placebo but not, nothing). Disadvantages: 1. to walk I have to input a perfect 45° upward angle. Which is also how I need to input tilts because ... 2. No c-stick, major downside but depending on character choice not necessarily a deal breaker. Something I don't hear anyone talk about is that just re-learning the game on a new format actually had major benefits. It's like learning the game from scratch but with all the wisdom of experience. The 8bitdo arcade is not a controller any serious person would use. But I dropped bad habits, and cleaned up my movement in a major way from learning to use it. Just my 2 cents.

[@medea6341]

The two things I can compare this two in recent memory are the soft ban on stalling (with the ledge grab limit) and the hard ban on wobbling. Playing against stalling is un-interactive, unfun to play and watch, and is detrimental to the entertainment value and longevity of the game. While wobbling was also legal, it led to a very stale meta for a character, a no-counterplay method of play, and to most players, it felt unfair to be guaranteed a lost stock due to one grab. While both of those didn't dominate top-level play, we could clearly see the issue they were bringing to the game. Nobody wants to be trapped in a wobble, and nobody wants to watch Jigglypuff grab the ledge for 8 minutes. So boxes would have to be THAT level of bad to be ban-worthy, and I don't think they're even close. It's a different controller to play the game. No different than those super-modded GCC's with notches, hall-effect sensors and no springs in the triggers. It's more consistent and that's about it. I don't think it should be banned.

[@jarotaro]

I've always preferred gc controller, who doesn't, but I'm arthritic so for me it's box or no melee at all

[@zombieraddish]

Extremely well reasoned video! The acknowledgement of the subjectivity of these kinds of issues (as well as disclosing ones one bias) is a show of good faith. I'm just a casual so I don't have a huge stake in this whole debate but its pretty interesting to me. Is there a widely known obstacle why smashsticks haven't been developed? Have the rectangle developers said anything? I have no technical understanding of what it would involve, but it seems like such an obvious fix and its weird that it exists only as a theoretical talking point

[@Kukzzzz]

Subbed here when i saw u tweet that u wanted to do more in depth melee stuff. Glad to see the upload!

[@Rintse]

Pip solo podcast when?

[@PipsqueakSSBM]

When my delusions of grandeur grow too strong

[@happyk7512]

Thanks for the video Mr Squeak. Any opinions on analog dispersion as a potential nerf?

[@Acryte]

Great video Pip! Three problems I feel are worth mentioning: 1) People (even controller experts) drive controller discourse on things they don't understand. For example, the technical requirements of performing stuff like pivot jab, utilt, dtilt, uaft, daft, and ftilt. It's likely people haven't practiced pivot utilts a day in their lives, nor do they know what techniques even exist to perform them. They don't know what makes these techniques easier or harder. They have no real idea of their reliability either. They probably don't understand details like how pivot ftilt (straight) vs fsmash with analog stick is actually polling-related, etc. Their only argument is that since most people don't know how to do it, and since they don't know how to do it, it's not possible to do it on gcc. In the case of pivot jab, utilt and dtilt (frame 2-3 timing), uaft and daft (frame 1), these techniques exist. However, the people who will ultimately decide the legality for these techniques and how quickly they should be done, have no technical understanding of how they are performed on gcc. Yet they will be the ones shaping the discourse of what is acceptable. To me this feels like if b0xx released in the early 2000's and the community banned shield drop coordinates because "gcc's can't reliably do them", when in reality, axe shield dropping exists and a few people are out there actually using it. However, because the majority of players "can't be bothered" to learn it, or simply don't know that techniques exist to do them, they just ban it instead. 2) People also don't understand that "buffs" are not always objectively better in every way. While I'm personally a fan of a travel time "nerf" I disagree that it's solely a nerf. Everything has two sides. Sometimes the natural travel time of the stick prevents various mistakes that you would never see on a gcc, but happen on a box because it's easier to rush the inputs and do them too quickly. So while it's a nerf on paper, I think it's also a good quality of life buff for box users in avoiding certain weird input errors. Another example: If how a move is supposed to be used naturally aligns with the average human's reaction window, then it becomes easier to use in those situations. This can be considered a buff for reaction-based things that might normally be difficult because the move just naturally "times itself". Meanwhile aligning it may actually entail slowing the move down. Did you know that if Marth's dair came out 1 frame slower he'd have a 13 galint AC dair off ledge on every stage? Sometimes a nerf can be a buff, and sometimes faster isn't necessarily always "better". It all depends on the tradeoffs and the context. When evaluating fairness, smashers need to do a better job at understanding the tradeoffs and context of buffs, nerfs, and more importantly, the difference between controllers. Just because something is different and better in one context doesn't mean it's universally better. We need to exercise more nuance in our evaluation of these things. 3) Smash players are notorious for exaggerating the impact of LITERALLY ANY difference between a gcc and a box and then hyper-focusing their attention on it, as if that's the reason they lost a set. Let's say some one-off single-frame box-specific thing "won" the other player a set in a last-hit last-stock scenario... smash players will be like "BRO BOX CHEATING LITERALLY COST ME THE ENTIRE SET". Bro... it may have happened a single time over the entire set. You made 100 bad decisions probably. You failed to adapt to the situations they were putting you in. You failed to execute things that would have made the match-up harder. You dropped guaranteed punishes. You failed to edgeguard cleanly. You played the match-up sub-optimally due to your personal style, etc., etc. But somehow, THAT is the singular and most important reason for why you lost. The reality is this: Most players accept insane character imbalance at that character select screen, and then insane imbalance at the stage select screen, but suddenly their controller imbalance which comparatively has an almost insignificant effect on the outcome of the match compared to their decision making, character and stage selection choices, is the reason for their loss. Yes preventable imbalance is bad, but let's stop acting like every single difference is absolutely gamebreakingly unfair. That shit is getting old. Once again, thanks for the video. Sorry for the long post but I felt it was worth adding to the discussion.

[@supersapphire]

great video and really well articulated thoughts throughout the whole thing. Will re-visit again need some time to digest all this info lol

[@OranguBANG]

Lol boxx is "cheating" but not Goomwaves etc okk. This is the reason I quit melee after 10 years and play ultimate. Pros can be so elitist they won't even advocate 1.03 but they'll cry about people using box to help hand pain but at the same time want people to pay hundreds for GameCube controllers Top players throw fits in melee but this doesn't happen in ultimate

[@OhSoSnake]

It's all narcissistic elitists pandering to other narcissistic elitists for clout. Fuck em all

[@abexuro]

Great video, love how grounded you tackled this topic. I think it's important to disconnect the controller discussion from individual players. Everyone's adhering to the rules as set by the tournaments. No one is a cheater. We didn't remove all IC's results after we banned wobbling. Good players that use a rectangle, are good players. IMO nerfing the rectangles will never work, or rather won't ever satisfy everyone. There's some interesting nerfs for specific techniques, but we'll never get to an agreed equality with GCCs. You seem to agree in a way that a SmashStick will take away a lot of the controversy around the rectangles. At least that's what I think and it felt like you were implying that. (Thank you for also covering this topic btw, I haven't heard anyone talk about this seriously in relation to rectangles) Pretty much all of the discussion is about the digitizing of the analog stick. This could be very easily "solved" by announcing a ban on regular rectangles that takes affect in 1 year. (or more) Anything that doesn't use an analog stick is banned and controller makers get enough time to build alternatives. I know this is unrealistic, as the Melee community can never make up its mind about anything. And I know I'm just a spectator and rectangles aren't dominant. But to me their design does feel inherently unbalanced when compared to GCC, which is the messy standard we have for this game. Hell, I've seen jokes that we should just ban GCCs and only play on rectangles to make the playing field more even, which is hilariously true. On a side note, have you ever tried a B0xx with Wii Nunchuck? That's basically a SmashStick with extra steps, though I can't think of anyone that actually uses that setup in tournament.

[@kev1502]

Agree with a lot of this - hate the last point. Ruling decisions regarding box controllers affect a lot more people than just Pipsqueak, Swift and Zuppy. These random mid-level players that everyone seems to disregard are the lifeblood of the scene. Dudes working a 9-5 that just love the game aren’t going to be upsetting Hbox bc they’re on a box controller. I think it’s fucked up to hand-wave the concept of telling people with hand problems that they can’t play anymore because a small subsection of players decided to ban the controllers that don’t break your hands. The B0xx was originally built as an accessibility solution. That’s not something that can be separated from the discussion and it’s a false equivalency to compare an accessibility solution to an uncompetitive technique in wobbling.

[@LeetTron5000]

Thats not really a great argument man. We cant give bionic legs to runners with weak legs and place them against olympic runners. At the end of the day its about competition, regardless if your a tryhard blue collar worker. You have to draw a line between accessiblity and imbalance.

[@kev1502]

@@LeetTron5000 LMAO bionic legs - if you want to go with runners, it’s a different kind of shoe. That’s a very bad faith argument to try and make

[@digineet8421]

@@LeetTron5000 Thats a terrible comparison. It's closer to an amputee who runs with metal running blades. It's not about giving advantages to people who arent as good, it's about allowing people to compete at all. It isn't so some worker without the time to practice can go against mango lol. Grab a boxx and play for a week and you will see it's pretty difficult. Try a keyboard setup on slippi and see if you can win a single game against a decent opponent.

[@LeetTron5000]

@@digineet8421 no my comparison makes more sense as the metal running blades arent better than actual legs the same as the boxx can have specific inherently better inputs than controllers if not regulated. Allowing them to compete at all isnt the same as allowing them to have advatages tied to them being able to compete. Never said it wasnt difficult to use thats an irrelevant point. Its about the unique positives and how strong they can actually be in comparison.

[@skiddzie9291]

​@@digineet8421they don't let the guys eith running blades run with people with normal legs.

[@Killopotamus]

I appreciate how difficult it must be to make a video like this. Regardless, it’s good to have thoughts from an actual boxx user

[@Rossi2145]

Love the depth, clarity, and actual thorough considerations in this video. It sounds like the only solution is a single box design as standard with all the design considerations documented (e.g. b0xx) Edit: Halfway through and you've covered so many aspects of the problem I don't have anything to add

[@hobbes9631]

Thoughts from an outsider with no horse in the race: 1. Box style controllers offer a clear competitive advantage over GameCube style controllers. 2. The banning of Box style controllers would negatively affect many established players in the scene as well as newer players in an unfair way. This leads to a crossroads in the Melee community. Either the community bans Box style controllers in order to create a more legitimate competitive experience, or the community keeps them around with nerfs in order to maintain accessibility and to prevent players being forced to leave the game. Both of these options have undesirable outcomes combined with the fact that the Melee scene has no governing authority in terms of rules decisions has lead to a complete lack of change. Despite the correct decision regarding Box controllers as a whole being ambiguous at best, the controversy presents an obvious reality that the Melee community needs to address. It is mandatory that some kind of system is developed to create consistent authority. Like Pip said in the video, people talking past each other without any real solutions is unacceptable. Years of this issue persisting without any change is unacceptable. As a side note, calling people “cheaters” and things of the sort is not only unhelpful and hurtful, it’s inaccurate. People play to win, and under the current system, Box controllers are completely legal. Someone taking advantage of the rule set to succeed is not the fault of the player; it’s the fault of the system. Overall, I think Box style controllers should never have been allowed, but are now too integrated into the system to be banned. However, nerfs and changes are necessary and should have happened long ago. What’s really important is how Boxes highlighted the real issue in the community: a lack hierarchy and consistency in terms of the rules. People are not just playing this game in a basement for bragging rights anymore. It’s a legitimate, popular esport that has no sign of slowing down. The community needs to act like it. Pokémon Stadium should not be constantly switching between frozen and unfrozen, people complaining on Twitter should not be the primary method of discourse, and controllers need to be consistently regulated.

[@DaydeeTV]

Great video as always Pip In my Samus corner still inhaling full Copium about getting full length WD for WD-based characters whilst nerfing dashdance by a similar % that WD gets right now for DD-based characters. So sad as a Samus rn to get insanely nerfed movement (WD angles on controller is just way longer), when you see CFs moving like a new character with a 20% speed boost DDs from the piano-style controllers.

[@OutOfTouch_YT]

I only gave Melee a chance because the Smashbox exist and if that was banned, I’d not wanna play anymore and move to another game.

[@Gerz970]

My question is when did we decide it is time for controllers to stop evolving? I think the whole argument against box only exists because some players don’t want to relearn on a new input device but they recognize that it is better so rather than taking the time to learn it they villainize it.

[@venus23gg56]

i don't agree with any nerfs but i really appreciate your call for transparency, as that is by far my biggest issue with the entire discourse atm.

[@Mr.Pies25907]

I still think that is Incredible how everyone wants to balance this controllers, but when everyone starts talking about it, they pretend that 1.03 doesn't exist.

[@zevkurtzman8108]

It's really surprising to me that no one's developed a smash stick yet. Like how hard could it be to just throw a gamecube controller layout on a flat surface with bigger and maybe more buttons cause you can't do analogue inputs with buttons?

[@alexisreyna2423]

Don't let them get to you king you dropped this 👑

[@XionicalXionical]

Wow this is a great talk. Thank you for putting this out there. Takes a lot of courage.

[@gusonian8637]

The ‘stealth buffing’ and ‘unknown source code’ is the biggest problem with boxes in my opinion. You don’t want to have someone hook up something at a tournament that is literally a …black box.

[@rascalflattsfan4]

One thing that I at least would like to add to this conversation is that learning to play the game on keyboard (which is essentially a box) is really common due to slippi's popularity and the difficulty of accessing a decent controller. While I agree that the box needs some nerfs I feel that outright banning the easiest controller access would hurt a lot of beginner and low level players who only play slippi.

[@bellaire888]

What if we gave box players tripping?

[@griffo7893]

I have a question bc I’ve never played on box, when you are holding a direction then hold the opposite direction without letting go, what happens? I think a nerf could be balanced when it comes to that specific interaction because it is really important to a lot of the things people hate about box.

[@random_bit]

if im not mistaken, when i so this on boxx, it just dashes in the second direction. Has costed me stocks lmao

[@ToThePowerOfX]

It goes to the new direction but if you don't let go of the original direction before pressing the new direction after that then you get locked out and the stick is stuck in neutral until you let go and press it again

[@Eval999]

It has overwrite but no reactivation. Forward-> Back works but Forward -> Back -> Release Back does not give you forward, you just stop

[@isayahjenkins8922]

I think the reason besides bias that top players don't switch to the perfect controller is that they cannot really afford to lose, this is their life and it takes more than a month it's easier to shit talk a controller then lose money or content for 2 months to still be better than the top 100

[@brentssbm]

I definitely agree that top players have razor thing financial margins and afford to take a hit to their financials. That being said, there’s nothing stopping players from learning boxx controllers on the wide while still mainly using gcc. It could even be a source of content! I personally would binge watch boxx complainers like ginger trying to learn basic techniques. Food for thought

[@davedanger4414]

It's also based around the player and playstyle. They know for a 100% fact that they are good with a controller and there's no point in risking the Ls to potentially be better. It's all they know and what they like. I'm sure most have picked up one and fucked around a bit. Pip compares the discussion to wobbling, which is somewhat appropriate, not the extremely naive and bias way that pip was saying, but there is definitely a comparison to be made. Wobbling gave an infinite to a mid/high tier which made the game A LOT more boring as a spectator, it was an obvious unfair glitch and deserved to be banned. It wasn't just "wobbling make me angry. I dont like" like Pip tries to make it out to be. Box players DO have an unfair advantage with consistent moves and certain tech, but so do goomwaves/phobs. One is just grandfathered in for being "close" to OG by virtue of them being controllers. Both "cheating" in my opinion. But what do I know? I play online on an xbox controller lol

[@digineet8421]

right. Ibdw played against syrox with the boxx and said " oh man if you can have this consistent of tech with someone who has my level of knowledge it could be a problem" like dude, syrox is just nutty regardless. And if you think you could show off how busted it could be then do it. he said he goes through multiple controllers a month sometimes and expects everyone to do that? why not just let the game grow and have actually decent controllers that dont hold the player back?

[@sadieroms]

Great video!! Champion of the community

[@JAMman]

I have a hereditary degenerative hand disease. My father is about to lose a finger soon. If the b0xx is banned I'm probably going to have to quit my favorite game. Pretty messed up

[@OhSoSnake]

I'm in a similar situation. I've had carpal tunnel since 2017, the B0XX is the only option for me. When I touched a GC controller again after a year of not using it, I felt AWFUL. Of course, banning B0XX because it offers 0.01% advantage would be great, it would make all of the elitists happy because they're in control and they're exerting their control. Just wait till all of them age to 35 and break their hands, and then can't play on B0XX because they banned it. It's literal INSANITY to me that Pipsqueak argues that ergonomics are not important. Imagine if EVERYONE got carpal tunnel from playing this game at the 5 year mark, yet they ban the B0XX because of its SLIGHT advantages which might not be advantages at all (look at the top 50 and see how many rectangle players you see). This theoretical elitism being prioritized over our health as mortal human beings is outright fucking disgusting to me. I seriously hope they all get extreme hand issues like we have.

[@JAMman]

@@OhSoSnake couldn't have said it better, myself.

[@justice8718]

The fact we have players like Glutto and Haxx (the Boxx creator) makes me laugh about how they want everyone to use Nintendo's torturous bullshit.

[@MajinEvelyn]

it's insane to me that people talk about how shitty and inconsistent GCC is (which every top player mods in a way that is a strict advantage btw) and also how it breaks your hands but cries about rectangles which actually function. just make a ruleset lmfao. I have loved watching melee for years but only ever wanted to play until recently because rectangle controllers exist because GCC feels like shit and I don't want to break my hands

[@JAMman]

@@MajinEvelyn love my b0xx. It takes a few months to learn, but it's the future 100%

[@prizm9515]

I want to see a tournament that only allows vanilla smash 4 controllers and see if all these different controllers really makes a difference in tournament results.

[@SRM13]

They do 💀

[@NeutralOfficial]

good video IMO as someone who's coming at this as a platfighter guy (my main game is roa but i dabble in almost every other one) the constant controller politics in the melee community is both unheard of and always comes off as just, dumb Will boxes/keyboards make techskill easier? yea, that's just, the nature of digital vs analog controllers and the only game i can think of where a box/keyboard player dominated is sandstorm in brawlhalla and that game does not need precision. I think if melee players just got there heads out of there asses and just accepted "hey, I actually dont care abt this" then the community would be better off. The difference between wobbling and box is that box isn't a automatic win in a department of the game, slight ease of use doesn't make waveshining INSTANT and make it so little jimmy can hit like mang0, but wobbling did and a lot ppl use wobbling as a crutch while they were learning the game. TL;DR y'all should bring back no johns

[@SoftwareNeos]

Oof

[@WillyMacShow]

I think you have to either update the software so everyone can have 1.0 cardinal and remap buttons, or ban everything. And I’m talking goomwave, z jump, everything. Imagine if armada and m2k had this sort of stuff.

[@alexanderbateman5581]

Agree. Fuck goomwaves, fuck notches, fuck remapping, it's all shit

[@rascothebirb]

@@alexanderbateman5581 This would just bring back controller lottery, no?

[@peamut547]

In my opinion, there should be no limitation in controllers (unless they somehow implement literal cheats). The whole point of competitive games is to reach the pinnacle of possibility of play. And if rectangles are the way to truly see that, I’m all for it. To me, it’s like professional esport shooter games. Gamecube controllers to me are the mice of old: I’m talking Zowie 500 hertz type mice; mice that are completely outdated but people still use them because they enjoy the consistency. However, in my opinion it’s important to recognize that eventually this old equipment gets outperformed and replaced, and that is the era this game should also strive towards. I just want to see Melee - and every game, in fact - to reach its complete, maximum potential. I say remove almost all controller restrictions and let the game be played perfectly. If it’s possible in the engine, the controllers should be able to bring out the full extent of that engine.

[@ojgimpson]

I think Falco not being able to wavedash as far is a pretty rough nerf for him

[@Godbrand]

as a falco player, i completely agree. another thing i would mention is the limitation of recovery angles (goes in line with wavedash angles). for falco / fox this is a tremendous disadvantage. especially when they have notches.

[@gigaegad9770]

​@@Godbrand most digital controllers have c-stick modifiers so that spacies can hit about as many angles as they would need, 11 per quadrant or 44 total. obviously analog conch can hit more but i don't think it's as big of a deal being that 1.0 aerial drift allows edge cancelling to be viable even without maximal precision and sweetspotting ledge is nowhere near as precise as edge cancelling

[@FP-ih1lu]

@@gigaegad9770​the c-stick modifiers only give you more angles towards the diagonals, but not towards the cardinals. Still a huge nerf imo

[@justice8718]

This is why I am never going to play Melee. My gamecube controllers fucking break all of the time so losing the Optimally broken ones (yes, this is fucking required for melee) hurts my soul, the game is very intense on the hands that I can end like Haxx, and the only true alternative (and objectively safer) controller I can get my hands on is going to get nerfed to death.

[@ojgimpson]

@@justice8718 I think this is a little overdramatic. Just use an alternative controller like a boxx/frame1 and roll with the punches.

[@Alex-xk5xt]

really appreciate this video amidst how toxic this discourse has gotten. you were very level-headed and reasonable here.

[@Not_Astrocat]

1 week of playing B0xx and being able to play without finger pain is such a relief. Even then I believe rectangle controllers should have regulated coordinates to avoid certain stuff and tournament legal firmware that so people don't have like Icies d-sync mod buttons, Pikachu douvle vertical up-b, etc.

[@tsukiortu]

I personally actually really like box for the reason that I have issues with my wrists and it's far nicer on them for me than controller/stick

[@Skantaq]

just a random scrub but thanks Pip because in a community without a governing body, I think truly exceptional people are allowed and even must stand up and speak out. I hope you keep holding it down for Melee in the Eurolands and come to the states again soon.

[@Mr_Potatobread]

Can't wait until Mang0 switches to box and playing on box becomes "the Mang0"

[@TheSmilingFear]

I think Bobbies argument is a little more nuanced than you made it out to be. To me, the complaint felt closer to "you can't do x with a regular controller" which hits a little differently than "cheater!" Looking at another past generation videogame like Mario on the NES, there are movements (that can result in faster accelerations) that cannot be accomplished with a regular NES controller that hasn't been modified, but *can* be accomplished on a modified controller or on a keyboard. A world record for that game achieved using these illegal movements wouldn't be recognized as legitimate in the same way as a world record achieved without using those kinds of movements. Compared to this smash situation, that'd pretty much equate to the asterisk. I can understand why that'd be annoying but if people are going to be allowed to continue using these kinds of controllers I don't think it's much of a compromise to have to make. The asterisk would be useful for people that had played the game in the past but don't keep up with its current events- they see a player pull off movements that they couldn't have possibly done regardless of the amount of practice they had and instead of being misled to believe that they didn't actually understand the physics and mechanics of the game they're watching, they can go on to quickly discover that "oh, it's not that I didn't understand the game*(citation needed) it's just that this person I'm watching is doing the equivalent of pressing left and right at the same time in Mario on the NES. Something that I couldn't have done without cheating." Yeah?

[@Glazierstar]

My biggest issue with the box/goomwave controllers is the barrier to entry. If I want to get one it’s pretty nontrivial. They’re both way more expensive and they’re not in stock. I don’t even know how to get a goomwave. I like what the controllers fix about normal gc controllers, but the barrier to getting one for an average player is too high and makes it kinda pay to win.

[@awogbob]

Make your own phob or buy one from a reasonably priced modder

[@Glazierstar]

@@awogbob I actually do have a phob I built from their kit. My comment was more so for general players to get one. Plus, In my experience, building a phob is not cheap nor trivial either. After buying the kit for 40 bucks(which is now sold out on their site), I also needed to buy a t3 donor controller, teeny 4.0 arduino type device, headers, magnets, sensors, special glue, plus some other optional parts. Some of the parts only can be bought in bulk so now I’ve got 400 little sensors in my house that are useless unless I want to become a community modder myself. I already had a nice soldering station for other personal projects, but their build guide recommends a semi decent soldering station as well so that’s an additional cost for most people who don’t just have one. All in all it ended up almost being 200 bucks with shipping and such. That’s not to mention you have to be somewhat tech literate to build it in the first place. It’s not that hard to learn how to solder and flash the firmware and set up the microcontroller, but it’s definitely a barrier to entry for just any normal player who wants to get on the same playing field. Even buying a phob, you have to be able to find your local modder, trust they’re good, and still I pay up big for them. Idk how much market rate is in other places but I usually see about 150-200 dollars shipped at least. More if you want the balded buttons, trigger mods, notches etc. Plus then there’s the additional debate of how a goomwave (not phob) has additional software features that are more “cheating” than a phob. But that’s another discussion altogether. At the end of the day my point is just that the barrier to entry for an average player is pretty non trivial. I know plenty of mid level players who aren’t in a position to be able to spend 200 bucks to build/buy a custom controller that will eat up 3 frames of their dash back so they will never miss a dash back out of crouch or will let them recalibrate their max wd angle into their worn out notches, or eat up bad inputs in a ledge dash to make them more consistent. I’m lucky to be in a position to have one, but it feels bad that it’s pretty challenging for many people to get on an even playing field. This is why I’m more of an advocate for an improved ucf. I recognize hax’s 1.03 melee may not be perfect for everyone, but it does add a lot of controller fixes so I’m a fan of an additional mod like that where everyone can be on the same level.

[@ryanperez6538]

@@Glazierstar what is a phob?

[@feargripper]

All melee modifications are a massive barrier for entry, it’s always been a problem since the beginning of ssbm.

[@Kool212]

What about going through tons of controllers just to get one that can dash back or shield drop properly?

[@SufferDYT]

Goomwave is definitely cheating. On-the-fly input adjustments should not be allowed. There should be no intent-detection type system trying to guess what you were trying to do and then just doing that action despite the player not inputting it properly. Remapping the input space such that your gate is now aligned with shield drop values and such is fine, but input correction is unequivocally cheating. I believe we should ban custom notches as well. Notches make it possible to do so much in the game consistently that you otherwise are just not able to rely on, or often even execute at all. It is unattainable for most players as only a handful of people in the world can do them competently, and it is also prohibitively expensive for many players. There is also a bias in that top player can skip to the front of the queue for reputable gcc modders. We are creating a market for these services which offer an unfair advantage, especially when paired with input remapping tech, a la goomwave/phob, since they deteriorate more slowly. And finally, the supply far outstrips the demand as it is highly skilled and labor intensive, and thus we're making the game, *to a degree*, pay to win. It is unfair to play a set against someone with a decked out $300 controller, you aren't playing the same game. There is a reason there are regulations in almost every sport regarding equipment, you can't grease the baseball, you can't over tune your engine, etc. At some point we have to make a decision as to where the lines must be drawn, and I think the decade old rule of "anything goes except for macros" does not leave the game in good state. If you care about the integrity of the game then it must at least be more precisely (read, not necessarily more heavily) regulated. A perhaps hot take, that I'm not sure I'm necessarily married to, but I think should be stated.

[@eliastew9636]

Just looking to clarify are you against rectangles? Are you advocating for OEMs or phobs? Genuinely trying to figure out what controllers you want to see in the scene

[@slouch186]

i don't think that having your desired inputs read properly counts as cheating, and it isn't unfair. (assuming one button = one input) top players seem to not like the box style controllers not just because they think they are better, but because they think they are better AND they don't want to switch. if all the functionality of a box controller was available in a GameCube style controller, everyone would use and love it.

[@digineet8421]

Yeah, I've just been getting into melee this year and always played on fightsticks for other games. I started off playing slippi with my Hori and realized I would need more buttons so I just got a GC conch. I do intend to get a Boxx because I think it would be more fun and I haven't invested too much into the gcc. I love the feel of fighting games with fight sticks. just the pad buttons feel incredible. if the Boxx gets banned I might quit the game altogether. The gcc hurts my hands. it is really shitty for many inputs and I'm playing fox. You have to buy a bunch of controllers and cycle through to keep them in good enough condition to do all the tech you need. its just stupid to take away the other options. Melee makes people mad I can understand, but the way the top players talk about the boxx makes me respect them a lot less.

[@justice8718]

The weird thing is that the Boxx objectively is easier to access than a good Gamecube controller, which are an objectively dying brand of controllers. Eventually, we will have to resort to the boxx like the FCG is going with Hitbox.

[@jiaan100]

​@@justice8718also keyboard is just a box and is REALLY REALLY accessible. The hardest part is deciding on a keybind layout.

[@itranscendencei7964]

I don't know if I would so far as to say that using a Boxx is cheating, but it does provide players with an undeniable mechanical advantage. While most things can be done on both Boxx and controller, there are still things that Boxx can do that controller can't do. When it comes to a competitive environment, I believe that both sides should have all the same opportunities and options. It is then up to the player to utilize those options to the best of their ability to win. However I don't think it's fair when one side just doesn't have the opportunities that the the other side does. I think the biggest problem is something that you mentioned. Regulation. I don't think that the Boxx should be outright banned because of the fact that it helps people play the game that wouldn't physically be capable otherwise. We should always strive to make our community as accessable as possible to new players, and the Boxx objectively helps with that and also with retaining players that are developing problems. What we need is firm regulation on what is and isn't allowed to be done with the Boxx in a tournament setting. If a controller can do everything that the Boxx can, then there wouldn't be as much of an issue. There will always be unreasonable people like Bobby, but that is inevitable.

[@digineet8421]

What things can the boxx do that a controller cant? There are also ways that the controller gives an undeniable advantage such as micro spacing and aerial control.

[@jiaan100]

​@@digineet8421pivots and especially empty pivots are easier. Turn around uptilt is easier but that's only really relevant at low levels, even mid level players are pretty consistent at that no matter the controller. Pivot up tilt (so you can utilt out of run) is an interesting one that is maybe possibly consistent on box or keyboard.

[@jiaan100]

Just in general having no time between the extremes of analog or c stick angles is an advantage (so box has better aerial control), also box has better sdi. I do agree controllers are likely better though, in terms of the highest levels of play.

[@bittendead]

You mentioned both goomwaves and phobs having macros and then go on to only list macros for goomwaves. From what I have heard, Phobs should not have macros. Am I mistaken, is there evidence pointing to the contrary?

[@jonteguy]

I think the box can stay honestly but I do think moderating peoples setups for it is something that should be looked into. If you prefer buttons over a stick you should be able to play the game that way but maybe some of the macros you (you as in general people) use should be looked at. Also hej ifrån Jönköping.

[@JustArten]

Fucking Christ, my reaction to CC up tilt as Marth was legitimately: "OH. GOD. UGH." Let's see, what to note here... - PracTAS has at least one great idea for nerfs (yay) - rebinding buttons on these controllers can undo nerfs (oh noey) - Hbox comes off as a guy talking shit on box-type controllers for content (not surprising) - regulation is hyper-fucked, and it's going to be for a while (fuck) - angle restrictions are not exactly nerfs (this was enlightening, tbh) All things considered, this was a great video that the community has needed for at least a handful of months. Glad to have watched it.

[@Dr3am9553]

BTW the switching the code on dolphin doesn't go to perfect. It just defaults to the Firefox angles. Which are legal fwiw

[@isayahjenkins8922]

The controller issue is not at the mid/low level but the top level of play

[@jpVari]

posting this before finishing the video, but I'm a hitbox player in traditional fighting games and we have people who complain like this in our scene. I think it's silly, and it's amazing when the standard 'get good' line suddenly turns into 'you're a cheater' if certain people feel threatened by it. With every other controller modification, people were happy to say it's still all about skill. I don't know melee inside and out by any means, but isn't the game modded? and many people's controllers modded? I thought that was common place. anything a box can do that regular controller can't would certainly be a point of contention. but for just precision/consistency/speed I find it highly questionable. but as a user, I said the same thing, please just ban it now if you're gonna ban it lol. I'm already a year in.

[@gEEKLEEKs]

Box type controllers are more like basketball shoes. There better to play on the court than normal running shoes. Should we ban basketball shoes cause everyone only wants to use running shoes? When basketball shoes are 100+ dollars and are specifically made for Basketball? But everyone in Basketball think its just natural to use those shoes. Even people who play basketball for fun use basketball shoes.Frame1 controllers allow melee to be played better and more consistent, its cheaper than modded gamecube controller, so I dont see the problem, people are just lazy to learn something new after so many years with Gc which is fine. Should it be nerfed? Sure but i don’t think that should make boxx type controllers banned worthy.

[@Wokokkon]

melee has a controller problem, not a box problem, and it bums me out the response is to bully pip. no button remap, dwindling oem inventory, hand health, buying multiple controllers in hopes they'd be shieldrop/snap back decent was terrible our pathway out of rng fresh hell was software fixes and 3rd party manufacturing software modifications are wishy washy, i get it, seems like salvation but sounds like it could jeopardize tourney legality no clue whats happening with panda conch but don't reckon its good or that the community would support anyway so we have rectangles and boutique controllers modders utopian dream is anyone could pick up an inexpensive controller and be on a level playing field but i think until that option is available banning and flaming our most viable (top level) options is dumb. I'm all for jokes/ribbing box players and controller mods, look for example when commentators shout out notchers when a spacie makes a nice recovery, but don't like seeing the shitty comments that seem to imply box players are fraudulent. idk, a lot more to say, I'm sure there'll be plenty of conversations in the future, but wanted to show some support pip. Keep doing what you're doing ps: thanks for throwing until we have in writing that box controllers are legal, looking forward to the chains coming off ;)

[@Duende_Sama]

I stan pip

[@wkrona]

This video just made it very clear, we need to ban rectangles.

[@NiekloLaarman]

Get this: You can use a nunchuck on rectangles.

[@thomas2446]

the slippi check for the correct box angles would be really easy to do

[@xdifficultviper9916]

It’s just a skill issue, if they were really that busted everyone and their mother would be labbing with them all day. It’s a mix of ignorance and stupidity to think boxes need to be banned, if anything ban all controllers that aren’t native to the game then (ie only GameCube controllers and it’s variations for melee, only joycons and pro controllers for ult, etc)

[@tiredofinternetculture]

Ult recognizes gc con as a mappable option for a reason. It's an official option.

[@awogbob]

This is my suggestion for a universal controller definition. As you mentioned in the first half of the video, boxxs will always have an inherent advantage because of their ability to consistently input any value needed to perform certain actions. Therefore: a controller is legal and can map any digital input to any location in physical space. In no circumstances can analog inputs be emulated and must be input through an analogue device. On an electrical level there are 6 components on the gcc that are analogue. 2 pots per stick and 2 sliders for analogue trigger. So you could have literal x and y axis knobs like a fucking etch a sketch. Each button could be a micro switch, a keyboard switch or a giant banana, as long as they are all mapped to the original pinout on a gcc motherboard, physical location should not matter at all The problem is that we use micro processors to send different non traditional inputs to the game. That's the flood gates, not ergonomics or layout

[@boboop94]

Totally agree

[@lemmytv3538]

i mean bobby had an argument, you literally cant do the pikachu up b cancel shenanigans on a controller

[@gyroninjamodder]

Then get a better controller if you want to do it. Nintendo didn't design the gamecube controller to be the best possible controller for melee.

[@klinkclang]

@@gyroninjamodder Melee was LITERALLY DESIGNED TO BE USED ON A GCC. no one wants macro cheater bullshit in competitive fighting games. go play bronze slippi bro.

[@gyroninjamodder]

@@klinkclang Melee was designed to be a casual game. Inputs that matter competitively weren't designed to be easy on a GCC. If you can't beat macros you should get good. Macros don't instantly make you a god at the game.

[@sareaper69]

Also, couldn't you mod a digital GameCube controller?

[@bbqseitan7106]

If you ban the Boxx you have to ban everything else The whole point of a different/modded controller is to make things more consistent. Ban the Boxx, ban the Phob and the Goomwave and ONLY oem is allowed

[@elleirvin2717]

That is a good idea unironically LOL

[@OhSoSnake]

How about banning everyone and all controllers and then killing ourselves

[@Vantavimeow]

Notches should never have been allowed, I can get behind stickbox fixes (hall effect, snapback, software fixes 1.03), trigger mods and remapping (healthier hand posture options) but you're looking at £300 for a competitive tier controller rn which is insane. We need hall effect stickboxes that are more accessible.

[@medea6341]

Saying to quit playing the game if you can't play on a "regular controller" is ridiculous not only because it is ableist, but also because any type of modded GCC is no longer a "regular controller", and by that logic should not be allowed in competition. A more reasonable take would be that since the GCC itself is not an ergonomic design, and using it at the level that top-level Melee is played risks chronic hand injury or pain, we should not be forced to abide by its design, and as long as a controller just not stray far from what an analog controller is capable of, it should be allowed. And boxes don't stray far whatsoever.

[@Z0mbie432]

controllers across all competitive games are always improving keyboards, mice, 3rd part pro gamepads for both fps and things like hori fightpad. Pretty much how much can you complain about a controller that just repositions buttons to be more ergonomic for your hand. If people really want to be the best they need to keep up with the latest meta. That's competitive gaming.

[@AlhiXD]

I've always treated this game like a professional sport which lends me to believe the equipment being used should be the same for everyone in tournament. Just how I feel about it.

[@azzans]

That was actually the purpose of the box due to the inconsistency between GameCube controllers. People would have crazy auctions and controller hoarding trying to get specific controllers for specific tech skill.

[@AlhiXD]

@@azzans That's really good to know. If only Nintendo cared deeply for this games competitive nature.

[@azzans]

@AlhiXD yea if Nintendo actually cared they would've updated the controllers or the game and fixed all these inconsistencies so we wouldn't have random conflip interactions. But unfortunately we have to take it into our own hands and develop our own controllers and develop stuff like UCF

[@AlhiXD]

@@azzans And if they actually cared we would have less RNG elements and more skill based elements in the game we are trying to show our ability in. I wonder if there is an easy way to convert a USB keyboard into something you can use as a controller.. To me, that seems the cheapest most accessible option ....if it existed.

[@AbigBlackcat]

Just curious what rebuttal there is when this argument is presented, "If the box is OP, why not just get a box"

[@ividboy7616]

That's pay to win

[@rayzamarripajr.7571]

What play is everyone talking about exactly

[@AllDayDan]

This guy is on the copium, wobbling is banned because its an easy infinite, not because people dont like it.

[@purpsheik2975]

what is separating controllers and boxxes? is it only bugs that plague every controller like c stick bugs and no dashback, or is there a different advantage boxx users have despite inputting everything the same as a pad (no macros). If boxx users actually get all the inputs in the game and gcc doesnt, wouldnt that mean that in reality boxx is more true to the competitive nature of the game, considering that gcc players are being held back by their inputs not coming out? Looking at it from this perspective it makes it look like top players who dont like boxx are trying to gatekeep players lol. edit: Obviously people like mango take pride in the fact that one of the reasons he is better then the playerbase is because of his execution, i seen a clip of him contemplating what makes melee cool being a fighting game or an execution test game. But if the timing is still there with boxx style controllers, then they still have an execution barrier as well and are simply not being held back by a controller that may or may not be shitty depending on luck. Lol there is no evil to taking the bugs out of the game that were in the game from launch... would we still even play this game if there was no ucf or online or stuff like that probably not. So what separates ucf and online practice from the boxx controller and goomwaves? They all inherently do the same thing take the bugs out of the hardware or software and make the game more accessible. He calls it evil but if not for all this stuff (which has been content for the past few years and you could argue is the lifeblood of this 20+ year old game) he wouldnt be streaming melee anymore, and if he knew business he wouldnt call boxx and goomwave evil when all it does is market the game to a wider audience. Pretty much any online community is only as good as its influencers, the reason everyone shits on boxx is because top players like mango shit on it and social media are just echo chambers at the end of the day. i remember when boxx first came out it was being marketed as an alternative to getting arthritis, now everyone is just toxic lmao

[@whjk83921]

The boxx has advantages and disadvantages. If it only had advantages it would be cheating, but that's not the case. I think the jury is still out which controller grants a bigger advantage, but 99% of someone's performance is just their general smash ability, controller independent.

[@NobodySSBM]

Great talk pip

[@ojgimpson]

Thoughts on B0XX with Nunchuk?

[@mr._otis9840]

Basically bigger gc.

[@chillarttalks]

well said

[@pipsqueakvods]

Good video

[@carlzabel8]

This was an amazing video and clearly super well informed and thought out. Part of me wishes that we could just only have OEM gcc's but I know at this point in the game's life it doesn't feel possible, I just hate having to hear about controller stuff every day (especially as someone who just kinda plays and doesn't know very much) but the most important point is of course not to harass or bully players for using boxes. Be kind to each other

[@ln8496]

Im a box player but i have a winning lottery ticket perfect oem controller with no mods. I i play 64 so i can pivot up and downtilt with it very consistently (and fast) and my sdi is better on controller because i can wank di. Imo theres pros and cons to each

[@jandaxprss6784]

What’s funny is the reason people justify melee as the best smash game is how good the movement looks and feels. Yet they don’t want the game to truly look like the masterpiece they make it out to be.

[@thegamingguy1]

This is the European precision our scene needs

[@JustArten]

The only thing I disagree with after all that was the comparison to wobbling. Not publishing articles about that here because it's already BAAAAAAAANNED. 😌😌😌😌

[@SomeoneWitSkill]

It's always hilarious to me hearing people complain about boxx controllers. If people are willing to do whatever it takes to win, meaning buying $400 controllers with customs mods to do insane things with it, or camp the ledge in order to win....and the boxx is cheating because it's so good...then why doesn't everyone get a boxx controller and be the best? make it make sense. I just recently started using a boxx controller and that shit is hard. whoever complains about it, needs to use it themselves so they shut the fuck up

[@sareaper69]

If the box aswell as other digital controllers are legal than there's the equivalent of a hori-pad-controller-for-Super-Mario-64-speedrunning-level advantage you can go buy or make and than learn and play with that just raises the ability ceiling higher while adjusting the difficulty of techniques in the game, essentially offsetting the balance even further depending on which character you play. Aswell, replacing analog inputs with digital inputs as a pay-to-win advantage and saying "oh but you've gotta learn the boxx" is silly.

[@lukalam-bellissimo4985]

What's your opinion on notches?

[@sareaper69]

@@lukalam-bellissimo4985 I think if you can show up with a doctor's note to tournies and demonstrate your history of going to physio for your hands than you should be allowed to use box. Otherwise go buy an OEM and shut up. We'd probably see a huge decrease in "oh my hands have been broken since I was born I need the boxx" attestors. It's like if fat dudes started buying up the scooter market from paraplegics and than a ban is proposed for scooters and you just hear fat dudes getting worried about how they'll have to walk places now. (A bad analogy). And to answer your question, you can wear-in and wear-out notches. They also don't give you digital inputs. You still have to move the control stick into the notch. I play on a notched PHOB currently, for reference. But I have to practise difficult techniques that could take like a year to learn. With a box type controller relearning double jump from ledge cause the inputs are a lil weird is difficult because relearning fundamentals is normally tough when changing to or from any controller medium. But having advanced techniques on easy mode is garbage. I do agree precision angles are an eyebrow raiser. Issue is the history of Melee has been written with notches in. Long before boxx type controllers were a thing. And to legalize and stand beside the boxx means OEM controllers need to be balanced to match a boxes level of precision and ability, meaning easier techniques around the board lowering Melee's beautiful and infinite skill ceiling. Not good.

[@clux5305]

I've said it a million times and I'll say it a million more: Top players MASSIVELY overexaggerate the smallest advantage a good controller poses. I mean we're talking notches vs. modifiers when half the time pros lose because they missed an L-Cancel or something, not because they were half a degree off from the right Firefox angle. And as far as the box debate goes, I too am rather tired of seeing people talk about the strengths of the controller without even addressing its weaknesses. Sure pivot utilt is easier and my angles are guaranteed, *but I literally can't do a medium speed walk.* I have 3 wavedash angles, being so short you'd buy it some viagra, 45 degrees, and then an average wavedash. And none of that even mentions 90% of the stuff they complain about is already banned, like perfect Firefox angles, perfect wavedash, etc. Read the SWT rulebook, it has a whole controller addendum with loads of banned coordinates, and that's what most tournaments are using.

[@brtarolg6094]

give gcc's a bunch of buffs d-pad should be macroable to analog->digital inputs and all buttons should be remappable to make the gc controller a stickbox lol

[@ladian5475]

1:09:34 hard disagree here, the fact that boxes serve a function in allowing accessability to playing melee is a massive reason for their existence and for not wanting to ban them. I don't think it is in any way comparable to wobbling, which is just an exploit we as a community deemed detrimental and antithtical to competitive melee. It is in no way necessary to play melee for some people like box controllers. Really interesting to get your perspective though!

[@PipsqueakSSBM]

That's fair and I get that. My point is mostly that we effectively shadowbanned icies and a ton of them just quit as a result. So saying "every box player will quit" isn't a threat that I think makes it meaningfully different from the wobbling debate where they did just quit I'd wager a decent number of box players could play puff on gcc (not all ofc) but who's realistically going to do that if the controller gets banned? Probably not many

[@ladian5475]

@@PipsqueakSSBM Yeah I get where you're coming from but imo people with hand problems only having GCC jiggs a potential option isn't really the same as being able to play icies(or anyone) as normal just without the infinite even tho a bunch did become less active as a consequence. Anyway merry christmas lol

[@PipsqueakSSBM]

@@ladian5475 merry Christmas! And that's totally fair I acknowledge it's a pretty out there take Regardless I just want a decision sooner rather than later, something we both agree on im sure

[@BoxxLoxx]

I've heard it mentioned a lot. I think anyone who thinks the boxx is so much easier, especially the players with the time any money to rent one, should have to actually use it for 3 months. At least understand the thing you think is broken and bannable.

[@joyuz6583]

Not having to deal with hand pain to do certain tech isn't cheating, it should just be considered standard.

[@MRkriegs]

It's not that at all. Its that u can do things on a boxx u cannot do on a controller is why people consider it cheating

[@joyuz6583]

Yeah but by that same token there are things you can't do on boxx that you can do on controller. Boxx buffs certain things while also nerfing others @@MRkriegs

[@MRkriegs]

I totally agree@@joyuz6583

[@gyroninjamodder]

People shouldn't be limited to the limits of the OEM controller. If someone can make a better controller for melee people should just switch to it instead of complaining that their controller is worse.

[@sergeyzakharov7326]

coming from a guy outside melee community it's kind of insane to me that people who for years been buying shit ton of gcc's to find the one without flaws are now rejecting what is pretty much a modern solution for this problem. people don't see any problems with buying custom 300$ controllers with notches and manufacturing flaws, but 200$ boxx is cheating and p2w somehow

[@green8923]

B0xx does have the capability to to have a Wii Nunchuck as a Stick input. I wonder if a version of the B0xx can be made that exclusively has the right side of the controller, and leaves the Nunchuck input, therefore creating a "Smash Stick"

[@sweetshoez]

Most based box user

[@FlabbahJabbah]

wobbling was legal for over a decade and 99% of players were very vocal about hating it soo not sure how you can say people calling something bullshit is only why it was banned or else it wouldve been banned since its inception haha maybe there were some other reasons toooo idk lol

[@Soul94255]

It's a humanity issue with the way people treat each other. It's not even just this game. I love this game, but people just suck and refuse to have any emotional maturity with respect to how they treat people. They don't want meaningful conversation, they just want to shit on each other.