Breaking Down Recon Tanks and Flame Tanks - Hoi 4 NSB

Going over the usefulness of recon tanks first and then flame tanks. Go over a couple of different designs that you can use for each and how effective they are. Be careful with the fuel costs of both.
Twitch.tv/71Cloak

[@stevenrochelle2238]

I like the mental image of cute little wheeled flame tanks zooming around. Spewing at forts. Burning down forests. Working their little dozer blades for trenches.

[@luckisluck]

And it gets destroyed by light machine gun fire.

[@commissarkordoshky219]

@@luckisluck It zooms away too cutely to get hit ;P

[@luckisluck]

@@commissarkordoshky219 Pretty sure that 50% reliability will bite it in the a$$

[@duineganainm]

@@luckisluck it's not a bug, it's a feature. Half the flame tanks protect you from the enemy, the other half explode into a fireball to protect you from the cold! General Winter won't stand a chance

[@luckisluck]

@@duineganainm winter clothes are overrated and production heavy.

[@MRSL_._._._._2]

Due to the way reliability works on a per division per equipment level (happy to take corrections), you can go for a lower reliability on flame tanks without taking real penalty. This means that adding extra ammo storage is a boost to stats that only has a minor one time XP cost.

[@-John-Doe-]

I was under the impression that equipment is still lost in relative to its reliability - it should be easy to test.

[@Descolata]

@@-John-Doe- At super small sizes, the Min Attrition rule applies, and Flame Tanks are so small its basically always higher than reliability.

[@Ancient_Hoplite]

I like adding recon tanks with high enough armour to my special forces divisions which I usually keep fairly small. Works great for paratroopers to defend once they land and can't be pierced but they have to recover some org first. Also mountaineers that can't be pierced are pretty fun. I usually make an infantry division designed for forest combat and treat them like special forces, they get flame tanks and a general with ranger and adaptable...lotta burnt trees.

[@dukedase7]

Essentially just cheating lol

[@-John-Doe-]

I just started, but keeping paratrooper divisions small seems necessary to average any armor or piercing. 1 battalion and stack support in those 2 width. Is there a stacking penalty in this game? _(ie, 24 2-width divisions in one province? As an extreme example)_

[@Ancient_Hoplite]

There's no combat penalty for having lots of small 2 width divisions except if they go over the combat width of the terrain type. With 24x2 48 total combat width is not going to give any penalties. Mountains have the lowest base combat width at 75 so 48 fits easily into that.

[@-John-Doe-]

@@Ancient_Hoplite thank you

[@Xinamon98]

@@dukedase7 It's called combined arms

[@user-tb1wo6ro4r]

I usually use high breakthrough and soft attack light tank recon in 10w offensive divisions. You effectively double your breakthrough and increase SA by 25%. Also this SA boost scales with support companies bonuses from Superior Firepower. With how the damage now splits across divisions, this added breakthrough is quite powerful.

[@evankearney4865]

I also use decent tanks for recon and flame on 10w inf divs with logistics signal and rocket/artillery 10/10

[@pWndConan]

Cost so much fuel tho, no?

[@evankearney4865]

Marcel K. Not if you only use the supports on 24-48 divs They are like my special forces, except better than mountaineers 😂

[@pWndConan]

Nice Guide as always! I was using Lights tanks with LT Recon and LT Flametank as Japan, not optimal, but very fun, because they are so fast :D And also very good on Marines.

[@Raptorsified]

Your evaluation of heavy flame tanks not being worth comes from seeing their use improperly seeing as you shared mainly breakthrough-orientated designs for both types of tanks. The main differences between the modifiers to recon tanks and flame tanks is that flame tanks get a 62.5/70/75% reduction in attack, breakthrough, defense, and armor for heavy/medium/light tanks respectively. Recon tanks on the other hand have the following reductions: -50%/attack, -20%/breakthrough, -50% defence, and no armor modifier. In this way when combined with the +50% support company soft attack you actually only get a -12.5% reduction to soft attack on heavy flame tanks. It is then my thinking, as I only use support tanks in para/marines, that my recon tank be focused on breakthrough/armor and that my flame tanks should be heavy and fully indexed into soft attack. It works even more synergistically for me as armor increases breakthrough and I only need 4km/h to accompany infantry. This means I have plenty of speed to spare as well as not requiring any armor on my heavy flame tank. In my opinion it's actually the best flame tank support for the use I have. In order to simply get the terrain bonuses however I do use your method of just having dirt cheap lights that can keep up with the division.

[@Anonie324]

Would you go for Bogie Suspension instead of wheeled for the boost in breakthrough, then?

[@Raptorsified]

@@Anonie324 you could if you choose to build an expensive recon tank but sometimes I even go wheeled just to equip more divisions with them so they have hardness of some sort.

[@daniel00160]

Headsup to anyone trying these strats due to the June 9th update: "Recon tank stats are now proportional to unit size (including armor)" so recon tanks are no longer as viable for armor increases but this leaves room for heavy flamers that can burn through your enemies.

[@tomhartnett950]

Thank you for the video! Very informative and useful as always! I did not realize flame tanks didn't affect attack when defending, and it seems like they have very limited application with that in mind. As you mentioned, mostly for marines where you need % attack increase.

[@sld1776]

I like using both, but only in breakthrough divisions. And it's cheap light tanks all the way for the terrain modifiers.

[@gaberobison680]

Gigachad Urban Defense Division I made like the first week of NSB: 12 Inf, 2 Arty, 2 AT. Engineers, flame tanks with dozer blades, support AA. Good luck breaking this for cheap! Specifically this is designed to hold Kiev in a RP style campaign. (By that point you should be able to roll over Germany)

[@TheFireGiver]

One advantage to large division is that the new medal system works better for them. Presumably you'll get around the same number of medal, but instead of those bonuses helping a small division they're helping big divisions.

[@Jokken111]

Hey man! I love your guides. I have said it befor but I learned more from 50 mins with your country gudies then I did with an 4 hour guide! Can you do an guide about taking out USA as Mexico?

[@0Turbox]

I build usually line Infantry for pure defense with atgs and AA, and some for attacking duties, with lots of breakthrough and soft attack. I'm just sometimes shocked by the battle results. Lost an attack against plain infantry. I lost more than 7k inf and 78 Panthers, and the other side just 148 men.

[@gaberobison680]

This gimmick gave me the idea of going paratrooper monarchist Britain and adding flame tanks to create instantly fortified strongpoints

[@Nikarus2370]

Given that recon bonuses are primarily defensive in nature. Would it not be better to put dozer blades on the light recon tanks which might see more use out of them? Additionally, what if you use an AA gun on your light recon tank. Does the air attack value work as normal? Will it act like a support AA and pool aa power (rather than like line AA, that only attacks planes attacking "this" division)

[@carlosn894]

So right at front im very bad in comprehending these excel sheets. As Germany you start with a sizeable force of light tanks. Until i fully switch to mediums in my tank divs I keep upgrading the lights to beef them up and use the light tanks afterwards as recon support for some of my infantry. I usually upgrade the armor afterwards and allocate some 3-5 factories to convert, considering speed is now no longer needed. Are fully decked out light tanks any use? Do they provide any better stats or are the soft attack, armor and breakthrough stats for the armored recon support company a fixed number? And if not, is a fully decked advanced light tank any use as support recon?

[@tartzmir7934]

i wish they actually made some modules or having higher speed increase recon of light tanks

[@kubicix1265]

so did i get it right CHP interwar light tank on flame company and for armored recon just try to stay above 5 armor to not get pierced Did i get it right ?

[@skroowi8105]

Scout and flame tanks in infantry divisions are great right up until you run out of gas. Then, it's not so much fun anymore.

[@mr__music5719]

So is Armored Car Recon better due to the extra Recon bonus or tank recon?

[@user-tb1wo6ro4r]

Hi! I wanted to ask your opinion on cav in NSB. Cav counts as infantry too, so a general can boost both attacks and defense (breakthrough) of Cav divisions by ~20%. You can also now grind army advisors, so you can grind Cav and Inf Experts, giving another 20% stat bonus. Yeah, cav receives less breakthrough from support weapons techs, but when using a 10w meta, most of the damage and breakthrough comes from support companies anyway. And those support companies receive more buffs in Cav divisions that in Inf, if you combine general/fieldmarshal/advisor bonuses.

[@71Cloak]

Cav only counts as infantry for the purpose of grining general traits. It does not get any of the bonuses infantry get.

[@user-tb1wo6ro4r]

@@71Cloak thanks for your reply, I guess no hussars then :(

[@-John-Doe-]

New player, but I don’t understand why everyone hates cavalry or even bicycle battalions _(great modifiers)_ in favor of motorized infantry when using medium tanks. The cavalry are still 6.4 / 60% faster than infantry divisions _(infantry have slightly better terrain movement)_ Already have 70 org. Don’t introduce horrendous movement penalties _(-50%)_ that motorized do. Don’t add massive fuel consumption. Don’t add twice as much IC. How much do you really gain from adding motorized to medium tanks after the movement penalties? You’re still overrunning infantry. Does everyone just play Germany / USSR / USA / Majors with infinite resources to waste?

[@71Cloak]

Cav do not get bonuses from doctrine unless they apply to the entire army. You also need motorized for supply so you have to build them anyways. If you can afford tanks you can afford motorized to go with them.

[@haukionkannel]

@@-John-Doe- Bicycles are great cavalry not... In the 1936 to 1939 cavalry is nice after that they get behind because they don´t get bonuses. Cavalry would be grat if it would get infantry bonus, but no...

[@FlyingDutchy]

Did they adjust the amount of armor you get from your armored recon? I made a 32 armor light tank and it only gives me 5,6 armor for my infantry division template?

[@paintedbird1020]

my favorite support company is Organization. it's the only one that you can have more than one of, and the only one that's free. my second favorite support company is the kind that does not require being attached to a division: green-air makers.

[@tbeller80]

Do any of these designs change if you're adding them to tank divs? You'd have to add points to engine, but any other differences?

[@71Cloak]

If you are adding them to tanks that even more reason to use a light tank. Just make sure to match speed and you will be fine.

[@pembetosbis]

ı go 10 witdh montaineers with support artillery engineers flame tank armored recon and logistic company. doctrine is superior firepower r r. this division smashes everything

[@ufuker5754]

Okey guys go superior fire power right it adds %50 soft attack to support companies witch cancels - 50% of recon make it deal %100 damage Light fix superstrucre howitzer +soft attack +50 soft attack

[@paintedbird1020]

is it really true that in single player the ai tends to not do aa? did i hear you wrong? i do sp all the time, and when i peek at what the ai is doing, it has more aa, as well as 7:2's, than carter had liver pills.

[@71Cloak]

Germany does aa basically no one else does though. Not unless you are playing until 1948.

[@bigbenhgy]

Why wouldn't you get the flame tank attack bonus for your soft and hard attack on defense?

[@71Cloak]

That's not how those modifiers work. They are modifiers on attack not to attack.

[@gaberobison680]

Do you know how much armor you need to not be pierced by infantry with support arty and arty + AA?

[@71Cloak]

20 if they have 1936 aa, 25-30 if they have 1940 aa.

[@igncom1]

Makes me wonder iof there are any mods out there to add the crazy kinds of tanks from many RTS games like Command and Conquer. Having Prism Tanks and Battlefotress Tanks would be hilarious and amazing. As well as formations of Flame Tanks and Stealth Tanks. Or Chrono Tanks that can "para-drop" anywhere they like.

[@1Maklak]

Since Armour is calculated as 30% highest and 70% average and 5/0.3 = 16.67, the Armour on a Recon Tank should be 16.5 or above. Accounting for a division not always having all it's Tanks, due to losses and Attrition, maybe make that a bit higher. So the 4 Armour ones are good, unless you care about Speed. Defensive Divisions just stand around and not use Fuel a lot of the time, but low Supply still means loosing Tanks to Attrition on top of not getting Fuel and having penalties from that. So making Infantry with a Recon Tank for 5 Armour is good in Europe, but has drawbacks on the Eastern Front or in Africa.

[@71Cloak]

You are missing the second half of the armour calculation when calculating how high armour needs to be. For division of 30 width or less 15 armour will result in 5 armour. For a full 30 width the calculation is (.3*15)+(.7*(15/20))=5.025 which the game will truncate to 5.0. So you don't need to put any armour on an improved light tank to reach that 5 threshold.

[@1Maklak]

@@71Cloak I don't need the second part of the calculation. A division is guaranteed to have 30% of the highest Armour value or more and it's enough to know this for a quick and dirty calculation. The second part of the calculation is I think 0.7 * sum_of_all_armour_values / (number_of_battalions + number_of_companies) and doesn't care about Combat Width as such. This is very important for real Tank divisions, but negligible for making Space Marines. Either way, it helps to have a bit more armour and be slightly above the threshold, because Tanks will be lost to combat and Attrition and not having full equipment lowers combat statistics, including Armour. Good guide overall.

[@augustduplessis5862]

Does having no fuel give any penalties except a reduction in speed to your army?

[@71Cloak]

Tanks don't work when they have no fuel.

[@williamwhitehouse8214]

You get almost no stats in battle when your tank divisions have 0% fuel.

[@gaberobison680]

When you think about it, Paradox just kinda skipped the middle stage of tanks and went straight to the more modern idea of combined arms warfare