Breakthrough Plastic Battery Requires NO Mining, is Cheaper & Lasts Longer!

[@thinktoomuchb4028]

Glad you touched on the recycling piece. I hope PolyJoule engages with you for a follow-up video.

[@richdobbs6595]

If it lasts 20 years and is cheap, even if all you do is landfill it afterwards, it wouldn't be a problem as long as it doesn't leach toxic stuff.

[@thinktoomuchb4028]

@@richdobbs6595 But plastics are largely made of fossil fuels, right? Or else you need the resources to grow and make bio plastics. Better that companies start thinking about recycling and end of life while they are developing new technologies instead of long after the stuff has been piling up.. and then realizing it has also been leaking toxic chemicals.

[@peterpicroc6065]

Very nice how you pointed out the unknowns and looked at this chemistry in a broader perspective. Too many youtubers just uncritically repeat the contents of the company website. Thank you!

[@tycooperaow]

That’s one reason why I love 2Bits

[@willm5814]

We need all of these ideas - the amount of storage required in a sustainable energy economy is massive!

[@TwoBitDaVinci]

indeed....we need ideas like this and many more... the challenge we face is huge and we need all hands on deck to innovate a better future.

[@Provocateur3]

@@TwoBitDaVinciWhat about Cold Cranking Amps? Can it be used as a starting battery for legacy Detroit rigs?

[@firecloud77]

Yes, we need all of these ideas so that KZbin content creators can make money by selling false hope.

[@chinhphan4787]

Ah yes, don't forget to turn off the pipe line to charge those batteries. Just Have it shipped from overseas. Lmao

[@brt5273]

The factor of utilizing plastic waste is a huge selling point for me. This sort of tech should be encouraged by and invested in by plastics manufacturers as part of the overall lifetime cycle of their production. If you produce plastics, you should also be accountable for the responsible recyclability and ultimate disposal. This sort of tech has a major advantage to producing a long term, utilizable benefit based on recycled material component which provides a major offset to the cost and negative impact of it's ultimate final disposal. The more use you can get out of the plastic and the longer it can be used, the less ultimate, overall, negative impact it has and the more justifiable it's initial production and original use.

[@mastring1966]

if it winds up that I can have a double sized refrigerator level battery that will be capable of powering my whole house at night and refilling during the day with solar with that many cycles? it's a massive win. not for phones or cars, but for off grid storage. every house in California will want one so they can not have blackouts. that alone would free up the grid for those that can't afford enough solar.

[@SweetLou0523]

It's amazing, for the last 10 years I have seen dozens of "radical, game changing, world altering" battery breakthroughs announced and not one of them has resulted in a commercial product. Not a one. They all promise to change the world, seemingly to attract funding, and then disappear. I'm hopeful that this battery as well as the sulfur battery you discussed a while ago become actualized into commercially viable products. The sulfur battery has the potential to change the entire consumer battery market and the polymer battery has the potential to change the commercial battery market. Maybe in 3 years they will join fusion power production in becoming reality.....

[@billh.1940]

Maybe it is all about the wall St. Investment energy it generates? The pie in the sky-hopeful investments. I will buy into all the future now companies with Bitcoin! Hope this works out. New ideas , new like electric cars, are needed. Next week, perpetual energy machines!

[@macmcleod1188]

Here are the correct figures so you can adjust your mental model. It's clear you have been getting bad data. In fact, battery prices are roughly 14% of what they were a decade ago. All these Innovations have made a difference. If it were not for the recent surge of inflation, battery prices in 2023 were projected to be $101 per kilowatt hour. Now it's looking to be in the $120s. Battery $ cost per kilowatt hour by year 2022 132 (despite inflation) 2021 135 2020 140 2019 156 2018 180 2017 219 2016 293 2015 381 2014 588 2013 663 2012 721 2011 917 Anyone who wants to verify these figures can Google "battery pack cost per kilowatt hour by year". As a side note, the price performance for solar cells has been on a similar curve. I'm most excited about District Heating though. It is a , inexpensive to store solar power as heat and then distribute it at night. There are already projects going up in Europe that will be online this winter. It's very fast to build and uses low quality sand or gravel or other materials the store Heat at about 540 C. It's an upgrade from Steam heating with much lower costs and much higher safety.

[@jwilliamson196]

I'm glad someone is working on these issues. There is enough brain power on the planet to solve all are problems.

[@TwoBitDaVinci]

Agreed!

[@Xero1of1]

Imagine a plastic battery the size of a standard heat exchanger for an AC unit sitting right next to it. No one would even notice it after a few weeks and you'd have enough power for your whole house in the case of an outage. I hope this tech comes to fruition.

[@richdobbs6595]

Yeah, but no. You ought to be thinking about something 10 or a 100 times the size of your air conditioner. Probably no issue, if you plan it ahead of time. The cost of space is cheap, which is part of the reason for MacMansions. But it will still cause issues in some places.

[@kreynolds1123]

@@richdobbs6595 I think 10-100 the size of your air conditioner is a bit hyperbolic. Well maybe if ones idea of air conditioner is a window airconditioner. Then maybe 10x is ballpark about right. Two powerwalls is about sufficent to supply my home's AC unit its peek power demand. If the polybateries offer 5x the power and if were 5x the size of one power wall then I'd need only one poly battery power wall with with the same energy capacity as a single power wall wich is volummetrically 5x greater than one lithium powerwall. But if I want the same energy capacity of two power walls, then that's 10× the volume of one power wall. Or roughly close the size of my existing combined AC and Furnace unit that I commented about above.

[@josiahhockenberry9846]

I'd get one for sure. Right now I'm watching this on my phone in the dark cause the power in the whole area went out. Really could use one of those right about now.

[@derrekvanee4567]

None of these techs fruit. Why I can't hardly watch undecided with Matt f anymore. Pipe dreams

[@ww07ff]

Just multiply the Tesla's Powerwall volume by 5. Probably the size of a refrigerator.

[@ivanostellato9478]

electrical cables and wiring are self ocntained batteries with a minor tweak they can also be more approportioned to be grouped into charge cells and cluster in sequence an din side

[@suieduardo3216]

This will reduce the pollution of plastic around the world, this is a break through, and help us to solve the problem of waste.

[@antonnym214]

Now you're talking! Rarely do we here good news about battery life in terms of charge cycles, and this is very encouraging! Nice reporting, sir! All good wishes.

[@anthonydavinci7985]

Excellent ..Your the best tech lecturer ..Thank You

[@ryanchappell5962]

I think the best way to reduce plastic waste would be to mandate all new homes be built with Reverse Osmosis systems. It would really hurt the water bottle industry but it would save so much plastic waste.

[@nickbrutanna9973]

"It's always cheaper to buy new plastics rather than to buy recycled". Part of THIS is because the cost of collecting for recycling, as well as separating it into different classes COSTS far more than the cost of new plastics. The ridiculous part of the sham is that the groups doing the recycling are pushed into doing it in the most inefficient ways, while ignoring the most inherently cost effective ways -- In most places, the garbage collection for individual homes also does it. MEANWHILE, the places where it is typically all together in one place -- apartments and condominiums -- get charged separately for it, so they don't do it -- even though THAT is far far more energy and time efficient in terms of the amount of plastics you get vs. the energy used to collect IT. We should be strongly encouraging apartment complexes and condos to collect recyclables, and accept that it is going to happen less in individual housing (it still could be encouraged by voluntary collection at specific areas nearby)

[@sargemarine3709]

We haven't done the damage on the beaches, the container ships have done that..... Great video !

[@FrancisFurtak]

Cool . I like the idea that Toyota is doing with ceramic batteries. Plus we could stop making plastic bottles and make them out of glass again like we had when I was growing up, which are totally recyclable!

[@TecnamTwin]

If it’s in the lab, it’s pretty much irrelevant for a very long time.

[@pdloder]

We didn't buy our water in bottles back then - that much glass moved into the environment where water is distributed and used would be problematic too. Remember glass breaks, and is very sharp, it's extremely heavy.

[@RexxSchneider]

@@pdloder Well, "back then", we drank our water from the tap, so we didn't need glass water bottles. Nevertheless we did buy our milk, soft drinks, medicines and beer in glass bottles.

[@pdloder]

@@RexxSchneider and there were/are very good reasons we moved to plastics - however bad the outcome was.

[@rap3208]

@@pdloder The reasons were convenience and plastic is cheap. In the long run glass bottles were cheaper as they used and reused and reused.

[@skeetersaurus6249]

I'm not sure how many companies use 'parallel models' to design products, anymore; but were I looking to 'create a new battery', I'd go back to the drawing board, square one, and start with the concept of a simple capacitor. Keep in mind, while electronics capacitors are used in a variety of applications, to increase voltage, to form specific energy waveforms, etc., where a battery is basically an energy storage capacitor you're trying to get the longest, flattest discharge possible, from. So...what does a 'long, slow discharge' capacitor look like? What are features which enhance such a discharge curve? One of the biggest problems all industries face, is when they copy 'the last generation of a product'...as with photocopying, the 'copy' eventually loses all semblance of the original. Stop copying the 'last generation' (with batteries, that analogy could be Lithium Ion or Li-Po examples), and go back to the 'capacitor blueprint', and seek out modern materials which would maximize the mechanical intent, to start with...as you aren't really wanting a 'battery' as much as you want a 'VERY slow drain, flat wave, temperature insensitive' capacitor that has no recharge degradation.

[@mdmsr2000]

Thanks for this man. The only way we can get there is to think our way through it. You are providing so much thought.

[@kreynolds1123]

Would I buy powerwalls that are 5x more spacious if they were 5× power dense and the battery were roughly 70% less expensive and lasted twice as long? YES!

[@NdxtremePro]

Did he mess up there? I though the power density was 5x less than Lithium Ion, so a 5x size should be the same density as the Lithium Ion, right?

[@kreynolds1123]

@@NdxtremePro the plastc cell energy density was 1/5th as the amount of energy for a given volume, 9:25. As to the power for a given capacity, it was pointed out polyjoul could charge in 5 minutes where as lithium needed 30 minutes to get to 80%, 8:54. Discharge was 10× lithium, 8:31.

[@laurensargent9471]

Exactly. Have maximum allowable solar, insulation, air source heat pump and EV. Am dead in the water on my quest to electrify everything and power it with renewables and efficiency here at home. Affordable, big capacity batteries are essential. No other way to get retrofit homes like mine close to net zero.

[@amzarnacht6710]

You can ONLY choose two out of four. Size Efficiency (charge/discharge cycle and capacity) Longevity Cost (Up front purchase & lifetime). Seems like, for fixed storage (home use & grid storage) these Joul cells would be ideal. You just need five times the space. For mobile use, LiOn is still the leader.

[@deathofpreyor]

that already exists. it'ss called lead acid battery

[@budkopach3163]

In the floating pile of plastic in the Pacific ocean they've discovered little plastic waste eating living microbes or something like that. Garbage plastic might not be an issue in the future if we can use them to break it down with out using more chemicals.

[@lvlndco]

If I could get batteries for my house that lasted longer than current offerings and cost less but take up more wall space I think it would still be a good idea.

[@exgenica]

One "simple" way to significantly increase lifetime and number of charging cycles of *_lithium-ion_* battery packs, is to charge them to signficantly less than their maximum specified capacity. However, it is my understanding that commercial installations charge/maintain the battery packs at capacities near their maximum spec'd value. Example to increase lifetime and charging cycles...charge a pack spec'd to 500Ah to only 400Ah. Depending on the cells, temperatures, etc this can perhaps even double the number of times one can cycle/charge the pack. Since each cell in the pack is also only being charged to about 80% or so of its spec'd maximum capacity, that means a lower cell voltage and that puts far less electrochemical stress inside the cell at all times, including while it is not being used. This approaches meets your condition of while it DOES REQUIRE MORE WALL SPACE, in return one significantly increases the performance while likely lowering the overall cost. Since it will require more cells (and more support hardware) in total, the up-front cost will be higher. But that should be recovered in the longer lifetimes and larger number of charge cycles one will get out of the packs. One would have to run the numbers for each installation to estimate approximate actual gains as they can be affected by usage duty-cycle, rate of charging, cell temperatures, and more. Edit to add: keep in mind this info is for lithium-ion packs. LiFePO4 and other types may not have the same responses to this method and one mey not see the same benefits, if any. This comment is largely based on information on Lithium-ion cell management at the _batteryuniversity_ website. It's a good website on the tech involved in various types of cells and batteries and best practices on how to handle and manage them.

[@Ayvengo21]

For private house if you don't need to keep it under room temperature the size doesn't really matter. Most of the price for home use is a inverter that and charging controller anyway.

[@soulife8383]

The top 3 oil companies made a machine that sucks carbon out the air. But, those corps also make plastics. So they polymerize the carbon back into plastic to add 5x value and to not compete with themselves. Fun fact: "Your carbon footprint responsibility" was a concept dreamt up by BP, to shift responsibility from the corporations onto you. Another fun fact: it's cheaper to buy virgin plastics than recycled plastic. So due to "fiduciary responsibility", these batteries will just add more plastics, especially if we went green and used them for storage. The irony.

[@playerzero0000]

Seems like every week there’s some new battery technology that we’ll never see come to fruition in our lifetime

[@FireDude13]

Potential piece to the overall storage puzzle. Like you said, the objective isn't to replace lithium but rather supplement it. Sounds like it would be a great alternative to lithium for grid or home storage. Utilities might be more apt to invest in grid level storage if the cost and performance claims made by Polyjoule hold up at scale. The universal constant still applies - working in the lab on a small scale is one thing, manufacturing and applying it in an industrial capacity is another. Sounds promising - time will tell. Definitely something worth keeping an eye on. Great vid - thanks for sharing with us! 🤠

[@michaelchildish]

I see them being a good competitor for home storage against Lithium, as grid storage it may be superior to the Iron Oxide experiments, and possibly for freight shipping against Hydrogen tech. One of the rare upsides of the Free Market is that alternative products of a similar quality and lower cost, naturally pushes down or reduces price increases on other products which may be overall more effective. My question is though, where can we source the plastic for these? Perhaps a monumental effort for recycling? Encourage those able to work on welfare into recycling plastic at part time hours, to get paid that on top of their welfare? Else when the oil industry is finished, as it hopefully will be within 10 years, this product gets nowhere, unless alternative plastic production methods take off

[@darylsonnier658]

Depending on material strength factors, the liquid electrolyte, etc. plastic batteries might work in a lot of other places as well as structural components. Think of how many things are encased in plastic or have plastic chassis. Structural batteries have been a discussion for years now. This kind of technology might lend itself in that field as well.

[@KenJackson_US]

@@michaelchildish: _"One of the rare upsides of the Free Market ..."_ Rare upside?! What are you, a flaming communist?

[@joshhyma842]

@@michaelchildish You hope the oil industry is finished in 10 years? Are you delusional? Do you have any idea what a nightmare that would be at a global scale? Green energy is good. It's getting transitioned in, but cutting oil completely would put us back in the horse and buggy era... wooden wagon wheels and hemp leads at that.

[@exgenica]

These days when I hear or read the truism you mentioned... _The universal constant still applies - working in the lab on a small scale is one thing, manufacturing and applying it in an industrial capacity is another_ I can't help but think of Elon Musk's solution to scaling up by directly using "mass quantities" of the small 18650 cells to power his electric vehicles. One might even call it *_The Conehead Process_*

[@DaellusKnights]

I had in mind to ask about the capacity / weight issue, but you pretty much covered what I was wondering... If the poly battery has to be five times bigger for the same capacity, then the best use-case would most likely be stationary bulk storage, where size isn't such a limiting factor.

[@1MarkKeller]

Imagine siding for buildings, ceiling tiles or flooring that are actually batteries.

[@shadowboy23]

The company I work for will be using these, I guess we are one of the first for commercial power storage.

[@noleftturns]

Each lithium battery in an EV requires 500,000 pounds of ore to be harvested and refined all using diesel engines - that's why every EV already has 7 years of CO2 usage on it over an ICE car.

[@FutureSystem738]

Great - look forward to an update. Thanks and G’day from Oz. 🇦🇺 The single thing that I care about least is the size of a home battery. The most important features are cycle life and calendar life, .. plus of course no brainers such as efficiency, reliability and safety.

[@denvera1g1]

IF the charge discharge rates are not made up*, then this would compliment Lithium batteries quite well in automotive applications. With a 1KWH polymer battery, capable of transfering all of its energy in 10 seconds, that is the equivelant of 360KW/480HP. This means that you could use much larger LiFePO4 cells for your main battery storage, say 280 amp hour cells instead of just 2-10 amp hour. This makes battery packs exponentially easier to assemble and service because instead of thousands of cells, you will probably need less than 50. This opens up the ability to monitor and balance each individual cell, instead of being limited to balancing whole rows of cells. This would drive down the cost of electric vehicles in two ways, as the cost per KWH goes down as the cell density increases thanks to less structural material. And assembling the packs becomes faster and less labor intensive. This also makes electric cars more reliable with longer lasting packs as each cell can be maintained individually. This also would open the door to user replacable batteries, as these 280AH cells are about the size of a small motorcycle battery, with an all in one connector it would be very simple to just have the end user replace a failed/end of life cell, instead of replacing the entire pack as a whole unit. As long as the storage pack is capable of supplying, and charging at 100kW 99.9% of people would not notice a difference between a traditional pack, and a hybrid pack, as even when towing a trailer, you arent likely to need more than 125HP for more than 30 seconds. The main reason we dont use these large cells is because they generally have a 1-2C rating** compared to the the smaller cells which may have a 10c rating because of the lower thermal density. That means that while a 50kwh large cell pack is capable of 50-100KW constant output, a 50kwh small cell pack may be capable of as much as 1000KW output. Yes it is much larger and heavier overall, but this extra power is needed when merging onto an interstate, or pulling away from a stop light. And really, for the longevity of the battery, it is recommended to only use 1/2 of its rated charge/discharge rate * It was likely a slip of the tongue, and he probably meant to say 1MW for 10 seconds, instead of one full megawatt hour transfering in just 10 seconds, but it sounds like the charge/discharge rates are completely false, because how could a small battery be capable of transferring energy, at 1/3rd the rate of the average nuclear power plant reactor (360MW/h vs 1000MW/h) or 482 thousand horsepower ** C rating is a measurement of how quickly a battery charges and discharges. To convert C rating into actual power, you take the Amp Hour rating of the battery, take the 280Ah cells above, and multiply it by the C rate, so a C rate of 3, on a 280Ah cell, means that it can transfer energy at 840A, multiply that by the cell voltage(3.2) and you get the total energy rate of 2688W convert that to HP take the 2.688kW multiply it by 1.341022 and you end up with 3.522HP

[@willthomson8863]

Somebody put this guy in charge of the planets energy. Quickly.

[@arturoeugster7228]

@@willthomson8863 Being in the ship business, away from shore weeks, there is not enough area on ships , reasonably available for seawater drenched solar panels to just drive the lighting inside, sacrifice cargo volumen for sensitive batteries makes even cheap batteries lose cumulative income .For propulsion the numbers are worse.The power of oldest technology sails is by far so superior, that it is a giant step back to substitute bunker oil. So now we are the villains that put food, tools, electric cars and even solar panels at affordable prices to YOUR front door. sometimes at considerable risk of typhoon caused damages, and no electric helicopters to pull us out. either.

[@willthomson8863]

@@arturoeugster7228 first of all, I am impressed by your adult use of sentences and reasonable arguments. I am so tired of having to argue with total reeetards or people who can't use sentences and at best can only manage emojis, or even worse, when presented with facts, go silent so I've wasted my goddam time. Would happily engage in a back and forward conversation with you on this thread about the subject of you are willing? I did a master's in energy and environmental engineering in 2006 and have been heavily continuing my personal interest in the subject since then. I invented a funneled wind turbine, which proved to be crap but used the data to prove that a bunch of companies were lying to get Obama green funding for their bullcrap funneled wind new 'inventions'. So I'm a fan of truth and logic, not echochamber biased nonsense. My first question is this. Have you seen the new invention about a boat that has used solar roof to power the boat that lifts on hydrofoils, thereby reducing drag by 90%? Question 2 is, are you aware of LiFePo4 (lfp)'batteries?

[@alifelessrock48]

How in the actual heck did they turn plastic into a battery. It should be the object that should be the least likely to be a battery. HOW HOW HOW. WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE DEFY COMMON SENSE. Props to them

[@kevinmontgomery1054]

As usual, great job Ricky. I've been enjoying Two-bit Davinci for several months and have subscribed. You talked about "doing the right thing." That's such a huge point and often I think simple changes could enable that. As an example you talked about recyclable plastics. I've long wondered why we make so many different kinds of plastic but recycle only a few types. Why not only make/use recyclable plastic? From the chart you showed it appears different plastics have different chemistries. I assume this is to give them different desirable properties. I get that some things need a stiffer plastic while other things need more flexibility. In my city they used to recycle #2, 4 and 6 plastic (I think I got those numbers right) but now recycle only plastic things with lids (milk jugs, soda bottles). This means they no longer take yogurt, cottage cheese, sour cream, etc. cups. The reason they gave was because the odd and often squished shapes were hard to mechanically detect and filter and often jammed the machines. And here's the simple change. Change the yogurt containers to use plastic screw-on lids like peanut butter jars. The jars already exist. Machinery already exists to handle them. That plastic is already recycled.

[@TwoBitDaVinci]

plastic recycling is a huge frustration and big topic....would you like to see us cover it? we do have a similar topic on the books about waste. you might really enjoy our discord group. we will have a link to it on our next video dropping tomorrow or on our next live stream.

[@tinkerstrade3553]

A solar array, with a wind generator in tandem, all hooked to a plastic battery silo in back of the house, would pretty much cover off grid living. And it's no more of an eyesore than a large propane tank, or your brother-in-law's broken Dodge. Now we need build plans and specifications and a materials list. And a big decal of a Bud can to disguise it. A redneck dream project! 🤣🤣

[@michaeljames5936]

Want to solve plastic recycling? Governments must mandate an ever increasing percentage of recycled plastic in all new products produced. This will make recycled plastic a valuable material and encourage manufacturers to use recyclable plastic/develop new methods of recycling, otherwise they will eventually be unable to make new 'stuff'. They're not going to do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

[@silvergreylion]

Regarding the hope to reuse plastic to produce this battery; as a chemist, I can guarantee you it needs a very specific type of plastic, and at very high purity, as it would have to be designed for use in such a battery. Recycling plastic to use, other than from old batteries of this type, would be a daunting task, at the very least because of the high purity needed. Once plastic is polluted/mixed with other plastics or materials, it becomes very hard to recycle, and is much easier to just burn along with other garbage.

[@edeaglehouse2221]

There are several depolymerization processes that, when they become reliable and cost-effective, could resolve the purity problem. Break plastics down into short-chain polymers and combine them back into the custom long-chain ones. By then the energy density of polymer batteries should be improved and we'll have a closed cycle of efficient, recyclable batteries.

[@jonathanmillner]

Ok... I feel like... I want a cybertruck sort of thing with a plastic battery and an iron air battery. Plastic battery for it's ability to charge a decent amount quick, and quick discharge capability. Iron air battery for it's huge power holding capability to be actively charging the plastic battery anytime you're at a stop or the car is not running. I realize this might be like putting 2 wash machine sized things in a car... but... we built a car around where we place the gas engine... Last I checked, that's at least 1 wash machine in size... All I'm saying is, maybe we should get over wash machine bias if it works...

[@wlhgmk]

Batteries which are ideal for stationary applications are the present vital need. They free up Li for mobile applications and likely, because of this, would bring down the price of Li (supply and demand). Besides they will enable the faster production of EVs. There are a number of promising alternatives. There are the Liquid metal batteries from Ambri, the ZnBr batteries from Redflow and Gelion and a whole range of redox batteries based mainly on V and Fe. All should be cheaper than Li batteries once they have the production volume to bring down their cost. All are from readily available, inexpensive elements.

[@mrharry8466]

Thanks two bit, love the info.

[@lawrence17201]

Thanks for the Narrative. Keep up the great information

[@teatimetim]

I would say this. There is mining involved. The chemicals needed include petroleum. So while the chemicals are easier to get out, they are not a zero in terms of cost and renewable. Lithium is also renewable.

[@edeaglehouse2221]

Everything is recyclable if you can manage the expense.

[@ShinkaTV]

Man, if this could be a catalyst for recycling, and it works for megapack facilities... awesome find, 2bit!

[@vijaychander4504]

Sounds too good to be true for a layman. Sincerely hope it turns out to be as good as the report states.

[@merkridge8780]

Easily synthesized with widely available industrial chemicals. What are these chemicals? How are these chemicals made? Do these chemicals harm the environment?What does the synthesized process entail? Is the end product recyclable?

[@thesparetimephysicist9462]

Question: It is stated that "ions" flow between anode and cathode in the PloyJules battery. But which ions are we talking about here? You need something with low electronegativity, and I don't see how this can be accomplished with out some sort of metal ion. Can anyone clarify this? Also the animation at 5:30 shows negative ions moving across the cell. In an ordinary battery you have negative electrons flowing through a wire, and not negative ions flowing in the cell. Is this maybe a mistake in the animation?

[@TheJAMF]

So the title depends on if you consider pumping for oil "mining", or if they can use recycled material. And my guess on the "bandwidth" of plastics; it will be just in one category, as demands on material properties will be pretty specific.

[@skaltura]

I keep wondering why they don't just melt ALL the plastics in single pot and just make something stupid simple like blocks for walkways etc. from them, then the physical properties does not matter much and in industrial setting you can take precautions for mixed in Teflon, PVC etc. (ie. hepa filtration and venting to outside air) Really simple steps: 1) Wash it all that comes in, have a few people manually picking non plastic stuff away (unskilled low wage labor, eventually robotize as stuff scales) 1.1) potentially use water boyance to separate metals etc. 2) Grind it all down to 5-10mm aggregate 2.1) See 1.1 could be on this step too 3) Put it all in a single big melter, potentially powered by burning trash/biowaste (with exhaust filtration and high temp for cleaner burn made via gas burners ensuring higher than otherwise temp) 4) Pour into molds automatically, no need for fancy injection mold here 5) PROFIT There are various things where plastic would be suitable cheap alternative. With big enough scale you can get 100s of tons of somewhat homogenous properties, enough for mass producing some decently complicated stuff too via injection molding

[@tigwelders-1076]

The plastic in the ocean is actually pretty easy to clean up if we slow down our consumption of commercial fish, roughly 75% of the plastic in the ocean is actually plastic fishing nets and lines. Main question is can the plastic nets be recycled?

[@LoanwordEggcorn]

2:35 Perhaps you mean Manganese? Magnesium is extremely common. 7:43 12 thousand cycles at 100% depth of discharge is excellent cycle life. Several times more than current Lithium ion.

[@rayfiore7779]

I remember the promise of "Plastic Batteries" back in the 1980s. At that time it was theorized that a car body could be made of plastic & be the battery, 40 years later?

[@RexxSchneider]

For the last 40 years, oil and natural gas have been so cheap that there has never been any financial incentive to seriously develop technologies to store energy in quantity. It's a different story now, though, isn't it? My energy supplier is going to charge me £0.10 per kWh of gas and £0.33 per kWh of electricity, with a promise of rises in January.

[@nathandevine908]

I think you're plastic batteries is wonderful great for like you said home storage and maybe grid storage and stuff like that

[@FranticGuitar88]

So much "breakthrough" on KZbin every day and we are still dealing with ages old shit in real life.

[@piotrrajmundkoprowski4732]

Yea, they just wait for investment and state grants. If they deliver nothing there is no responsibility.

[@fgxw8]

These things are almost like capacitors. They are quick to charge and quick to discharge but don't have a high energy density. I could see these used in conjunction with other types of batteries, using a little more advanced battery management system to control power output and flow. Maybe you could get a little punch in acceleration like nitrous!

[@KickassCrusader]

essentially would be perfect for the peaker plant cut on/off if still using fossil fuel/nuclear peakers

[@kreynolds1123]

I wondered the same, would a hybrid battery work, but I'm not convinced it would work out well. For instance, say the poli battery portion were 1/5 the capacity of the existing system, then one could reduce the lithium portion to 4/5ths Collectively the capacity is the same, and the power capacity is doubled, but the volume is 1.8×, or virtually doubled. Not sure what the specific energy density(kwh/kilogram) is but I wouldn't be surprised if if were comparable to lithium batteries which would mean you virtually double the weight too.

[@jangoedbloed2141]

Just a question, lithium battery's fail over time, isn't there a way to revive the material so in can be used again? And as for the recycling of plastics please advise the manufacturer to look at the recycling industry in the Netherlands. We have come a long way already at separation of various sorts. I am not in that industry by the way. Just a ships engineer.

[@incognitotorpedo42]

There is a rapidly growing Li-ion battery recycling industry. That's the way to revive the material. I don't know of any way to safely and effectively do it in situ without wrecking the battery.

[@KenJackson_US]

I saw a video that claimed a properly maintained Prius battery can easily last 30 years.

[@RexxSchneider]

In metal-ion batteries, the metal ion is the charge carrier from one electrode to the other in a non-aqueous solution. The redox reaction that provides the charge/discharge reaction is normally between different oxidation states of a transition metal. The degradation of the battery occurs because the metal ion can eventually bind with oxygen (usually on overcharging) and no longer be available for carrying charge. Recovering lithium from Li-ion batteries will involve reducing the Li2O back to Li, and there's no way to accomplish that in situ, so reviving the battery is a non-starter. You just have to extract and separate the materials, then start again.

[@jangoedbloed2141]

@@RexxSchneider Thank you for your response. So the lithium is not totally lost. If you can separate the battery's components.

[@RexxSchneider]

@@jangoedbloed2141 It should be pretty easy to separate lithium metal from its oxide as Li melts at 180°C and Li2O melts at 1438°C. Reducing the oxide to the base metal can be done electrolytically via the chloride (the electrolysis of LiCl is the usual final step in producing Li from its ores).

[@evopwrmods]

So glad I found your channel....very well presented, I'll be watching more of your videos..thanks for the education

[@JacobAnawalt]

Very interesting. I feel like we keep getting fed rainbows and unicorns on plastic recycling. The industry is not internalizing it's external costs. We almost need a deposit type system when consuming plastic products that gets paid out in part on depositing for recycling and the other part goes to fund actual recycling. Maybe an additional tax on plastic products to fund research into or the actual function of recycling. The same can be said of any environmentally unfriendly product, especially the big new stuff like non-lead acid based rechargeable batteries, solar panels, wind generators, and consumer electronics.

[@DanielinLaTuna]

I keep thinking about refueling my vintage VW Bug with electric, but range with existing battery technology vs the range on gasoline makes me hesitant. Something like this would definitely push me over the top. I just hope I live long enough to do the conversion. Thanks for sharing

[@arturoeugster7228]

Try a hybrid, Toyota Prius, very economical. Extremely long range You will not regret it, Fun again in driving noiseless for mostly short daly trips, chargeable at home. On the road at 70 mpg

[@lewisedwardson7776]

This is the complete opposite of what you would want. This would store a lot less wattage for the space it takes up. It would be great for stationary power, but not for anything that needs to move.

[@Backstabbio]

Ain't nobody getting rid of plastics-we need that shit.

[@johnknight3529]

So, what's to stop slab shaped batteries being installed inside walls, or above ceilings, etc., once this technology matures a bit? If there's no fire hazard and they last for many years, it could perhaps become common practice to incorporate them into the building itself, rather than into a big box outside.

[@stamenkovicdrmisa]

Hi Ricky! Yes, the volume of these batteries is bigger compared with Li-ion kind, but do you know what is their weight proportion?!?

[@TwoBitDaVinci]

hey! Yeah they're less volumetrically and gravimetrically dense... but still could work for many applications

[@Dethfeast]

The energy density is a killer for Automobiles. That's basically range per recharge. You either have 20% of the range for your care, or over 5 times the weight for the battery packs. As far as the grid goes efficiency isn't quite the killer you might think. If the round trip efficiency is 80%, that is terrible compared to Lithium Ion, but it would be roughly comparable to the best Pumped Hydro dams, and if it could store enough energy and have enough recharge cycles it would have a place on modern grids to help buffer wind and solar power.

[@edeaglehouse2221]

Nothing about weight was mentioned. It's possible that the extra volume would not add up to a significant weight difference, since these batteries have no metal.

[@PeetHobby]

Plastic in products that last 20-30 years was never the problem, cheap plastic package material that we throw way after one time use is the problem. If you look what we find in the wild, 95% is plastic package materials.

[@dosadoodle]

2:17 - How is the price of lithium per kWh of battery higher than the cost of the battery itself? Related: What fraction of the cost of the battery is the result of the lithium cost?

[@davestorm6718]

Interesting that the inventors of plastic imagined it would be incinerated after use. This is actually the best way to eliminate plastic from the environment. Recycling is always an interim step in the life cycle of plastics as it can only be done a certain number of times before, it, ultimately, ends up in a landfill. This is why incineration is so important. If we sourced our power from non-fossil fuels and renewables, the addition of CO2 to the environment via incineration of plastic becomes negligible. I believe, while people are justifiably concerned with global warming, they are, inadvertently creating a severe plastic problem, by not incinerating (instead creating conditions for more microplastic contamination, world wide). Plastics have so many advantages (less weight, longevity, recyclability, prevents spoilage of foods and medicines, resistant to chemicals that metals, glass, and ceramics are not, super clean and sterile - especially in medical procedures, and more...), that the elimination of would be more of a detriment than a benefit (including the environment!).

[@andrewmayes3271]

I would buy a product that is 5 times the size for a home storage battery but being from the UK where houses are not always large they would need to make it up rated so it could be mounted/ installed outside open to the elements

[@dustygreene3335]

Awesome to see more variety in our energy future.

[@MaxB6851]

Man Made Diamond Batteries last 1500 years without the need for charging, the process also captures and sequesters carbon forever.

[@markhathaway9456]

Neat ideas. There are a lot of people working on various ways to make our world better. I hope they succeed.

[@lonnpton5239]

Hope too

[@danielscarbrough4363]

I wish plastic was the answer, as for now it does sound promising on one level but plastic has issues. Mainly PLASTIC is TOXIC to life. It does not biodegrade, breaks down into microscopic bits that are now found in wildlife and human blood. We've got to find a better material...like...ROCKS!!! Oh yeah! Make the stone age great again! No joke, back in the day 12,000+ years ago folks had POWER systems utilizing various arrangements of stone circles and pyramids that are still being discovered. We already have rocks....but...maybe someone will make a new material that is in balance with life? It will happen! 😊 Love these videos!

[@nickbrutanna9973]

Anything that concentrates a lot of energy in a small space can be disrupted, thus releasing a lot of that energy in a very very short time. This is how anything works.

[@gadaadhoon]

I've always been confused as to why we worry about size of batteries for grid storage.

[@ge2719]

well, you just cant ignore it entirely. if a material is half the price, but the battery has to be twice as big then you may not really improving anything. Plus even if its far cheaper, if its 100 times the size required, a battery bank for a city may have to be massive.

[@James_Ryan]

Far better to make batteries (that last 20-30 years) from oil than to just burn it...

[@marseillesvieux2987]

Oil is an easy consumable. Oil starts coming out of the ground when the don’t get consumed, it is that abundant.

[@mdombroski]

There's a very good energy storage use for recycled plastic. It's called fuel. Burn it in a high temperature incinerator to make dispatchable electricity.

[@Timotheeee1]

every time a fancy new battery tech is developed in the lab it ends up just silently disappearing. can you make a video about some battery tech from a few years ago and discuss where they are now ?

[@gelisob]

8:15 emphasis on the "are recycleable" - LIKE EVERY PLASTIC PRODUCT claims to be. So another manufacturer who goes for cheap plastic because it still is it, to make more plastic products. Instead of figuring out a way to make use of already thrown away plastic - because thats too difficult. They will also let "someone else" worry about how the recycle happens huh.. New plastic really needs some heavy tax on top of it..

[@hedleypepper1838]

And where does the plastic come from?? Oil ??? Mined oil ?? Then chemical and thermal reactions in processing ?? Is it really green ?? At all green?? Can it be recycled or does it have to be virgin materials every time ?

[@chrisloving6647]

I could find room for something the size of a fridge as long as it is cheep enough. 😆

[@DeDraconis]

Interesting. I think I misunderstood something. Isn't energy density supposed to be a measure of how much energy a battery can store by *weight*, not by _volume_? If I did have it wrong, what do you call the measurement that goes by weight instead? Cause even if they are bigger in volume, if they're lighter and other factors work out well, maybe that old idea of making a vehicle where the frame and the battery are the same might be possible?

[@suieduardo3216]

Best Job best done , i salute to you.

[@don.timeless4993]

Indeed it's for grid storage! not to forget it going to be one of the ways to get rid of plastic waste. & about companies wanting cheap plastic, governments should add tax on new ones so to be a little expensive than recycled ones

[@DougBohm]

If they can truly demonstrate the use of plastic waste in the creating of plastic batteries, then the investment will come flooding in. I can’t see many wanting to deal with new plastic waste. It’s already unmanageable, a problem created from the byproducts of oil and gas production that legacy energy has an incentive to keep making plastics. So many goals and so little regulation of these dirty polluters is not going to get us to net zero. Also, where are all the spent consumer batteries? There’s never even been a return policy from that industry. There must be billions of AA batteries in landfills around the world with materials that need to be reclaimed.

[@incognitotorpedo42]

The materials in ordinary consumer batteries are not valuable enough to pay the cost of gathering and recycling them. Dealing with plastic waste is something that should be tackled on its own and not linked to a developing battery technology. The chemistry of the plastic used in packaging is radically different than the specialty polymers used in the Polyjoule battery.

[@edeaglehouse2221]

@@incognitotorpedo42 I disagree. If end-of-life processing keeps being treated as an afterthought or a separate issue, it's less likely for a solution to be developed. That is why it's good that manufacturers are starting to pay attention to what happens after their products are used.

[@benwest9004]

Consumer demand for low cost non volatile safe batteries should hopefully aid in the farther development of this tech.

[@denvera1g1]

1 megawatt hour in 10 seconds. Thats 360 MW for 10 seconds. Soo, this battery has the ability to discharge at a rate similar to that of a small nuclear reactor? What is the size of this battery a small single story office building?

[@incognitotorpedo42]

No one involved in the making of these videos has ever taken a physics class.

[@jonesjones7057]

Hahaha

[@RexxSchneider]

It's just possible he meant to say "1 MW for 10 seconds", which is about 2.8 kWh of energy. Probably closer to the mark.

[@denvera1g1]

@@RexxSchneider thats the most likely meaning, but the gauge of wire needed for that would still be absolutely insane. at 3.2v thats going to be over 800A 0000 gauge copper can only carry 225A at 3.2v 6 inches according to 2 different online calculators. This would need massive bus bars and even that might be a problem because it would need to be 65mm wide and 12mm tall made out of solid copper

[@RexxSchneider]

@@denvera1g1 You're quite right about huge currents, but 1MW from 3.2V needs over 300,000 amps. I didn't spot what the battery voltage was in the video. I wonder if the 1MW was coming from a stack of batteries? Although even at 100V, the current would be 10,000A. Something's still not right.

[@futureterritory9681]

You are a very good videographer.👌🏻❤

[@salec7592]

I believe they are much better solution for EVs than Lithium ion batteries. Features of energy density and power density are codependent: If you can recharge fast, you don't need that much range, because you are going to refill along the way. And opposite, if you can't recharge fast, you need to carry more energy with you, so that when you make stop for recharge, you already need the rest yourself (e.g. for having a meal), and the two "stopped" times ("stopped for recharge" and "stopped for longer rest") overlap.

[@Tletna]

I found this video to be very interesting and a little bit hope building, though like you mentioned, a lot is still unknown or up in the air. But, that's the case for a lot of new or potential battery technologies. I really believe that both in a typical money/oil-based market like we currently have and also a cashless society that which battery technologies we do/don't develop could make or break us. We're going to be in a phase where power production starts to improve due to stressors on it (coal and oil will become either more rare or less allowed by government epa agencies).. essentially power production right now seems bad but will get better and better, more efficient, cleaner overall, and both deeper and broader. So, then power production won't be the issue anymore, it will be power distribution and power storage. Once the power storage issues are rectified, then power distribution won't be much of an issue either since a lot of people will be producing their own power in this ideal future (this is assuming we can get out of the clenches of power companies and government agencies forcing us on grid, or we are on grid but it is cheaper, they are developing ways to more safely and efficiently transport electrical power).

[@sascharambeaud]

I'll be waiting for the follow up regarding efficiency and use of recycled materials. If those two turn out positive, that would indeed be a promising technology.

[@justbecause4557]

You need to check out Sierra Energy for plastic fast ox gasification.

[@kevinmontgomery1054]

One thing that frustrates me is so many of the new technologies you talk about are experiments in the lab. They look great and sound promising but don't hold your breath waiting for them because they won't be here for another 2-5 years. Please do an episode(s) on what was promising in-the-lab tech 3-5 years ago and did it ever come to market.

[@TwoBitDaVinci]

This can test our patience also.... actually we are trying to cover more now tech or much sooner to production technology than in the past. So your suggesting a bit of a why it failed style video? do you have any examples? We have also thought of doing something similar but about older inventions and why they failed and if they should be tried again.....would that be interesting ?

[@TrevorLaneRay]

Urk. All I can think of now is "Nickle" (1:26) 😆

[@markthomasson5077]

I am guessing that the scale of potential poly batteries is far less than the amount of plastic kicking around, so will never have an impact on using recycled plastic, even if that works. Oil is an amazing resource, our grandchildren will be shocked that we burned it. If the poly batteries are 95% recyclable and last 30 years, not sure that is a huge issue. Sure hope this works.

[@nalo1728]

the best use case for this type of battery is for homes as a powerwall. 5x the size of an li ion isnt that much unlike a pump hydro.. i hope they push this through. taking some load off from li ion is good for supply issues . li ion for cars and phones and this for homes. then have more time to find the next solution.

[@lnwolf41]

You did a good job on this video. You showed its potential, and possible area where it would be a better fit, but you also asked questions that have no real answer yet. Plastic recycle?, we should demand the oil companies to to take up the cost, and convert it back to oil, and carbon residue, while using the waste gas as fuel. There are many of these plants around the world doing just that, but not enough.

[@ThirtytwoJ]

Imagine.. not letting companies oversaturate every market and build everything to break and have paywalls.

[@squidbeard492]

I wouldn't mind batteries taking up a whole garage wall. I'd just put shelves in front of them with enough room for ventilation or maintenance access

[@deanlee8150]

Is it magnesium (Mg) in a Li ion battery? I thought that it was manganese (Mn).

[@edeaglehouse2221]

Magnesium is commonly used in the contact alloys.

[@torinpena288]

This is an excellent technology to have, right alongside thermal batteries--although those are more useful for grid power storage, where they'd actually decrease fire risks and reduce the amount of environment control needed (they're already hot enough that external temperatures don't matter as much).

[@jamesfiegel9675]

Thank you for this video....optimistic green technology is what the world needs and this polymer battery and fit into that New World :)

[@jtc1947]

I would suggest that the ability ot RECYCLE is right up there???

[@greatemeraldgoat5029]

Such a fascinating topic! Can't wait to hear more on this.

[@guyb7995]

I'd love to have more capacity in my Powerwall but they are stupid expensive. I have lots of excess solar in my array, on a sunny day the battery is charged up by 10am. Then I am stuck feeding into the grid and in my area you get 25% of the value of pulling from the grid. I did resort to GPU mining to use that power instead but that all ended about a week ago.... I might just pay another battery in the future if I got much more storage at a much lower price as the PW does not get me though the night....

[@tinahickson6352]

Very informative. Thanks.