Brennan & Matt Debate XP vs. Milestone Leveling | Adventuring Academy

[@kamikage9420]

Brennan: Milestone makes more thematic and narrative sense. Matt: "Is a man not entitled to the sweat on his brow?"

[@christophercrafte]

the funniest part is that his description of a company deadline being finished sounds like they met the milestone and as a whole, the company leveled up just like in dnd.

[@CappyK]

"NO! Says the parasite"

[@everythingsalright1121]

"O fuk super capitalism doesnt work" - guy who got golf club to da faec.

[@sorrowandsufferin924]

And the strength in his arms.

[@drifter1777]

@@CappyK "it belongs to me" "NO! Says the church. It belongs to the Gods" "No! Says the Bard. It belongs to the love interest"

[@jedsithor]

The fact that Matt is actually more of a milestone guy and is not just arguing against Brennan but against himself makes this extra hilarious.

[@Bokmoh]

🤣🤣💯

[@XpVersusVista]

hilarious and stupid at the same time. Also, it shows one of humanity's flaws that i seriously hate. Yes, Steve wasn't here last week. Should he be punished for it? Because he didn't put the "work" in? What work? I play for fun. My reward was being at the table last week. Let steve have his level. I don't care what steve gets, as long as I'm not treated unfairly. His "promotion" doesn't subtract from mine. I was both in school and in college usually the guy who did more than half of any group project i was in. Why? Because what they delivered was usually lazy horseshit quality, so i scrapped it and improved it. Was i angry at them? Nope, I wanted it to be better, so i put the work in to make it better, and my reward was that it ended up better. I didn't even do this for any grades, purely because i believe if you're going to invest time into something at least do it right and don't waste your time and everyone else's time. At the same time i was massively depressed due to other reasons (gruesome death of someone very close) and tended to come late to college or miss (non-group) deadlines due to a lack of motivation and daily borderline suicide contemplation that made me get up too late. Guess what? people started HATING me for getting to lectures 5 or 10 minutes to late, even though i never interrupted the lecture. It was simply envy that made them hate me. "I have to get up early and rush out the door and shit to be early and he gets to be 5 minutes late every day! what an asshole!". They think "i could have slept 10 minutes longer if i did that you prick". But nothing changes for them no matter if i am early, late or commited suicide. I don't get why people are so stupidly focused on what others do. Why get angry if someone's constantly late, if it doesn't mean any different circumstance for you? I never caused additional work for my colleagues (quite the contrary in group projects), yet they started absolutely hating me. And matt mentioned exactly that behavior with "Why does steve get to become a god, even though he was never doing anything!" What does it matter? It's not like he's taking your god-spot. Fucking Humans...

[@canaryinacoalmine1759]

@@XpVersusVista The thing is every adventure you go on has a risk of death. Players who don't show up aren't being punished, they are getting a fair deal. You risked your character's life and levels for those experience points, and there was a chance you died and got nothing. This is especially true in old school D&D, where if you die, you start back at level 1, or at least significantly lower level than your previous character.

[@deschain1910]

@@XpVersusVista I get what you're saying, and that wouldn't really bother me at all, but I don't think it's simply envy that's motivating people to feel negatively about it. If we stick to Matt's example, I think most people would be ok if both people got promotions IF the guy who was on vacation deserved the promotion in general for other reasons, just not if he was supposedly being promoted for work that he didn't do, specifically. Now, it could be argued that it doesn't map exactly onto milestone leveling in that case, but I don't think it's simple envy. It's that people intuitively feel like rewards should be earned somehow. I think there's a moral intuition being triggered in these people, not just envy.

[@mittensbro]

@@canaryinacoalmine1759 This idea makes sense in theory. In practice, it's really, really stupid, and it ultimately just ends up being an anti-fun mechanic for the players. Let's say my buddies and I are running a long-term campaign. One of the players has sort of a shitty work schedule, so he has to miss every third session or so just by circumstance. We have two options: Either a) don't play because one guy will be absent, or b) keep playing and just include him when we can. In this case, we pick B because everyone else is available and he doesn't mind. In this case, what you're talking about creates a negative feedback loop where this guy keeps missing sessions and keeps getting further away from the party in level. Eventually, this means that the player is overall weaker than the rest of the party, which means he's not doing much when he does show up. All you've done in this case is minimize the amount of fun that player can have when he does show up, further discouraging him from playing at all. In the A scenario, the mechanic disappears completely and the effect is identical to milestone-based level-ups anyway, just with a number attached. There is no positive outcome in this situation-either the mechanic adds nothing or it actively drains the fun of the only players which it affects at all. Now personally, I like the number. I think the number makes players excited to know that a new level up is coming soon. But I use the number effectively as a milestone and ALWAYS give each player the same EXP value because, like I said earlier, there is literally zero benefit to the number otherwise.

[@skapunker96]

I like how they just co-DMed a scenario to make their respective points lmao

[@thefullmetaltitan9732]

Yeah lol! It turned into a DM-off between the two of them.

[@MasamiPhoenix]

Where can I watch this?

[@thefullmetaltitan9732]

@@MasamiPhoenix What specifically are you referring to?

[@MasamiPhoenix]

@@thefullmetaltitan9732 Nevermind, I misread the original post and thought they actually co-dm'ed a campaign at some point. My bad

[@korvan]

They are masters of "yes-and"ing and it makes for such a wonderful story.

[@zoll2000]

i will forever remember brennan's bit about the wizarding academy instructor taking the students out to kill goblins instead of lecturing about the theory of magic, cause that's how you get xp and therefore how you learn how to do magic better

[@TimpanistMoth_AyKayEll]

I mean this is clearly why there are so many dangerous things at and around Hogwarts. The Forbidden Forest is basically an XP dispenser. /s

[@Helleuw123]

i mean fighing thigns and actually using magic in real life is an experience and wise lesosn aswell so hes not wrong

[@joshuab8491]

I was searching for this clip and that's how I got here instead :D

[@DarkBunnyLord]

That’s why I like a mix, successful social encounter? Gain XP. Kill some goblins get some XP.

[@josephmurray6819]

Well it’s up to the DM.. you could go out and kill 5 goblins at 20xp each, or you could stay and get the “sat through a masterclass by a renowned professor and learned a lot” xp which is worth 500xp... discovering new places can give Xp... uncovering clues in a mystery...

[@willw6504]

I used to do XP. I transitioned to milestones without actually intending to - my players got lazy about XP recording, so I started keeping closer track myself. And then I started preparing adventures so that the experience would finish off levels, so that the party would always level at the end of a major adventure. And then I realized I didn't need to keep calculating the XP - I could just count the number of regular, hard, and boss-level encounters. By that point, I was basically doing Milestones with extra steps.

[@jackfoxx6351]

Wow this is word for word, why i do milestone.

[@Xacris]

Yup, it really is just cutting out the dumb number crunching and that's it. Bonus points, you don't get players running out to kill some random wolves because they're close to leveling up

[@TheDapperDragon]

@@Xacris Exactly my reasoning here. I'd have people trying to pick extra fights with randos, until I put my foot down and told them no, they can't get XP off of anything but actual encounters. Which, again, milestones with extra steps.

[@Isaax]

I meticulously count every single XP I get. Unthinkable that a player wouldn't appreciate it. To keep track of it is not a chore or even a duty - it's a natural law. It will be done. The process is not questioned, for it is as natural as my breath.

[@mattcraft8577]

Same for me, sorta. I only started dming a few months ago, but I have been RPing and stuff for years. I literally just converted how I scaled rp characters in story arcs, to how I'd scale dnd characters. However, I was looking at how or what might be most effective. After reading up on xp, I realized that it was way to hard to do since I was doing, more or less, a completely Homebrewed dnd campaign. I, and my players(friends of mine), call it HomeBrew with dnd. Because it's not dnd with Homebrewed ideas, it's an entirely made up by me and a friend. I have a completely unique race system, no class system, and whole lot of other stuff. But, at the end of the day, having to Calc the exp gained from a single monster seemed to hard. So, I settled on just moving it with the story as milstone. However most level ups, so far have occurred after fights. None have actually come outside of combat yet. I have some planned. But they are still distant. Most leveling up will come from the fights.

[@Alwayz114]

Really love how Brennan's chaotic energy ignites Matt's. Matt started so meek but then on his first rebuttal goes IN. Love it

[@uhkingdom]

Matt’s a sweetheart who is ready to throw down if friends show they’re down for that kind of energy lol

[@miscstuff1238]

@uhkingdom Matt has Brennan's chaotic energy, but needs to be invited in like a vampire.

[@uhkingdom]

@@miscstuff1238 Lmao yes, you can see it in early Vox Machina campaign episodes. His desired state is to be tender and forgiving, but when a certain criteria is met he will become Punished Matthew and he will depose upon you his most terrible knowledge

[@EpicNerdsWithCameras]

@@uhkingdom He really is excellent at matching the energy of others in the room, which is great for a DM because it means you're able to adapt the mood to that of your players.

[@cameronconnery2080]

I’m not into that shouty overly excited shit. I can barley watch it. The guys needs a beer and a Valium. It’s tedious and painful to Listen to.

[@D.Jay.]

Matt as a DM is obviously team milestone but I'm proud he took the harder argument

[@highspeedstrongstyle9061]

He learned the difficulty of balancing encounters when you have a player that is 2-3 levels behind and shifted as soon as possible to Milestone XP.

[@zedx50]

Matt is only team milestone because of Ashley and Blindspot. Vox Machina was actually XP level ups for the majority of the campaign and I have no doubts he'd go back if they weren't playing a public game.

[@DavidGrossNYC]

@@zedx50 That might be true but that also demonstrates the up sides to milestone. I see the merit in both but what I do like about milestone is that it allows you to balance and plan much more consistently. It lowers the burden on the DM who already has enough burden lol.

[@jonathanfenton8695]

As we have seen, milestone works better for a show that has time limits, heavy rp, intense battles, and is played exclusively every week. Everything depends on the context of the story, and the amount of nat 20's they roll for those skill checks.

[@nickwilliams8302]

@@highspeedstrongstyle9061 The problem there is awarding XP to individual players and not the group. All PCs should have the same level. Use alternative means to reward specific players for specific things.

[@MrCerfleber]

What I love is that Matt starts with a very straight-forward traditionalist historical argument. Then Brennan comes along with this epic-narrative, plucked from the jaws of anti-climax. And then Matt just claps right back in kind! It's like watching a GM-narrate-off

[@procrastinator99]

I would unironically watch a three-hour show of just THAT. Matt and Brennan GM-narrate-off!!

[@Postmann88]

Yep that was as close to a DM rap battle the world has ever known

[@priestesslucy]

@Michelle Mah I second that

[@Nictator42]

the big thing I like about milestones is that you can have more than 5 encounters with goblins in a campaign before the party is too powerful to have fun fighting goblins

[@TheMasterblah]

Is it not a thing to reduce xp/not award for killing monsters that are not a challenge?

[@SquidSystem]

Then stop giving the party basic ass goblins to fight more than 5 times? I can't name a single monster in the game that you can fight 5 times with the same party and not start getting tired of them anyway

[@moojoy1920]

@@SquidSystem Even basic goblins can be fun repeatedly if put in a variety of situations.

[@SquidSystem]

@@moojoy1920 @Moo Joy I agree that you can make the same thing fun to fight over and over, but only if your DM is very creative with how they set up encounters, and at a certain point, you're just making them goblins again for the sake of fighting goblins. Graduating to more naturally intimidating foes, or if you really love goblins for some reason, homebrewed variants that pose more of a threat is just a natural progression of any d&d game and variety is the spice of life, as well as our ttrpgs.

[@actor765]

Give your goblins class levels

[@salt-emoji]

Matt: a clear concise depiction of what he values. Brennan: goes full director a monologue of the ages touching on God love and loss.

[@NonsenseFabricator]

He's right about XP sending characters careening out of control in like a month, though.

[@somesatisfaction]

I feel like that’s Brennan’s trademark

[@IrisGlowingBlue]

Matt, probably: "Hey cool, we're having a friendly debate over levelling mechanics c: " Brennan: "No, we're having a friendly debate about who can be as /ridiculously theatric as possible" Matt: "Got it. Got it"

[@calebbonney4193]

I enjoy that during his defense of XP Matt actually described a milestone in your life.

[@ericsmith1508]

My thoughts exactly! 😄

[@user-Tod-The-Toadster]

@Hunter he never called it deep dude, why are you being a prick

[@majorzipf8947]

I think that’s the point. A milestone grants experience.

[@salvadortoscano2534]

He's explaining that in using milestones, not everyone has *earned* the level-up, since his argument for exp is that it's a tangible metric to show the work and effort you've put into the game to earn your level-up. He was combining his example, using milestones as a metric, and showing how *your* effort has rewarded someone else just for doing the minimum possible effort, and getting the same result.

[@tgres287]

@@salvadortoscano2534 my god... i didn't even realize that milestone experience was actually tabletop's communism. No wonder I hated the concept of milestones the second i heard of it

[@ADHDandD]

Came for Brennan and Matt, stayed for the Tony Pepperoni shirt. Long may he reign

[@jonobody2773]

Is that a dungeons and daddy's reference?

[@ADHDandD]

@@jonobody2773 nah it’s a reference to the shirt that he’s wearing. I think he got it from the pizza place he went to after a car crash he was in. He talked about it in the critical role GMs round table vid

[@jonobody2773]

@@ADHDandD ah ok ok but still rip Tony Pepperoni

[@damiennightmaresx7950]

i didn't even notice that was a real shirt?? what the fuk xD

[@nickh3205]

I think the shirt should last at least 26 episodes then return 85 episodes later

[@marinedude10]

Call me weird but I would watch Brennan and Matt master debate each other all day!

[@maironv6479]

I understood that reference!

[@nitindasiah991]

I think Matt is gonna win. He is well trained by his good friends, Sam Reigel the master master debater

[@turnityp886]

i hope we get to see who is the best at baiting out their players.... see who is the master baiter!!

[@Good_Hot_Chocolate]

​@@nitindasiah991 I believe the term you are looking for is a Grandmaster Debater.

[@nolifeconsolegamer]

@@turnityp886 I hate you and wish the worst on you for this crime against language that I too was about to commit.... so take my like and begone! Baka

[@regrettablemuffin9186]

“You’re not a tyrant, you’re just not paying attention” I have never been called out so hard, this is exactly why I prefer milestones to XP, I always lose track of XP, whether as a DM or a player it’s just too much to keep track of.

[@williamstriker2299]

I use a VTT so those numbers can taken care of for me. I just think Milestone levelling makes sense outside of VTT, but not for the "narrative benefits", but simply because a DM should not be an accountant. But the benefits of XP levelling is too much to ignore if the accounting gets solved by technology.

[@KaelWrit]

the game is supposed to be fun and Im all about not makin it too grueling. We're all in our 30s and exhausted enough

[@avrilfan0521]

Seems like the the way to go is to use both....like most video games do when they give that MASSIVE xp bonus for completing the chapter

[@frogihorror6550]

I can't believe Brennan made villains based on this conversation

[@Bald_Monkey]

Wait what - did he?

[@frogihorror6550]

The Rat Grinders from Junior Year seem like the personification of the idea of leveling up through, well, grinding

[@prestonc9059]

Matt: xp motivates players Brennan: *starts monologuing*

[@SylvaGardenia]

That's just how Brennan talks and it's always entertaining. Dude has mad dramatic flair.

[@dungeonguy88]

@@SylvaGardenia Yeah, I love how you can see Matt picking up on the conversation beats and following suit. They're both great at adapting to the conversations they're having in the moment, both in the game and out.

[@Jonathan331]

@@dungeonguy88 exactly this. I think Matt went in, thinking they're gonna debate, 'cause that was the prompt, brennan swooped in with, Nah nah, we're gonna play argue. Lol, so they both got into a character. Makes it more fun and less personal.

[@jackalkhan5676]

It's like watching a juggernaut...

[@IrisGlowingBlue]

++

[@FloatingOer]

Dumbledore: "Harry, I fear Voldemort may not be so easy to defeat, he is too powerful." Harry: "How did he get so powerful professor?" Dumbledore: "By killing, Harry. By killing. But fear not, for I have raised a whole pack of Centaurs and Acromantulas in the forbidden forest, and Merpeople in the lake. Trolls, Unicorns, House-elfs, even a giant! Kill them Harry! Kill them all! It's the only way for you to become powerful enough to fight Voldemort!" -Dumbledore said calmly.

[@Isaax]

Bad faith

[@MisterMac4321]

Oh, it gets much worse than that: characters going out to stomp on anthills because they need another half-dozen XP to level up. Total BS, but the rules basically demand it. The official leveling system is total garbage and only a knuckle-dragging mouth-breather would use it given any alternative.

[@msihcs8171]

@@MisterMac4321 I couldn't imagine the nightmare for a DM trying to keep track of skill-leveling where instead of leveling a character you level individual skills, it might be better, but it would be a ton of work

[@bobbycrosby9765]

@@msihcs8171 it's not better. It's just as dumb as going out and stomping on anthills.

[@drunkenfarmerjohn42]

@@MisterMac4321 Yup. XP works much better in point-buy systems than in class systems. Generally, power ramp is much slower because you're getting it bit by bit.

[@benjaminoechsli1941]

"Gods forbid you be rewarded for the hard work you put in!" "So now I'm a tyrant!" "You're not a tyrant, you're just not paying attention." 😂 This community is truly blessed to have both these excellent gentlemen.

[@chrisbrown6952]

Shouts to everyone revisiting this clip after Junior Year: Episode 4

[@BassBumbass]

Immediately.

[@philiphockenbury6563]

Personally Milestone is good when you have a really solid plan for the story in mind. XP is for when you’re on the wild ride with the players and it reminds you when you’re supposed to get stronger. And also XP tracking tickles my brain and makes me feel like I’m earning my power rather than gaining power almost incidentally by virtue of completing the story set out before me. Keeping track of it made me feel good about it and every effort felt rewarded instead of just big events.

[@duncanhenry3048]

Yeah, I find XP to be very valuable if there are a ton of potential encounters for the players to face but not a set order (best example being a megadungeon). If they beeline to a later level of the dungeon and take on some harder fights they get more reward than if they go up a few levels and fight the starter monsters, and XP takes away any work involved to determine how many milestone levels it's worth to fight high level creatures as a low level party. Meanwhile, if you have a planned set of encounters milestone is the way to go IMO.

[@sugartoothYT]

When you see many numbers the brain goes brrrr.

[@WACHULUKNAT]

exactly. I do XP when most of the stuff is improvised because then im forced to take good notes in order to send out XP which also makes it easier to remember the names of all the random NPCs. milestone is easy mode and i do that on my other 3 campaigns where i simply dont have enough time/energy to try as hard haha

[@fred_derf]

@@duncanhenry3048, writes _"Meanwhile, if you have a planned set of encounters milestone is the way to go IMO."_ So, milestones for the Rail Roaders, got it!

[@dennis_duran]

The faces they make at each other when they go on their monologues are priceless.

[@majorzipf8947]

Gods I love it. The two best DMs on the internet sharpening each other respectfully.

[@groofay]

Think of all the t-shirts Sam could make from these eight minutes alone.

[@procrastinator99]

@@groofay lmao!

[@stewartmcdonald6163]

“Your not a tyrant, your just not paying attention” Jesus Christ Matt that was so raw 😂

[@philistineau]

Such a great quote.

[@lastwymsi]

Im sorry But i must *you're

[@michaelkrakauer7879]

You're not a tyrant, you're just not paying attention. YOU ARE

[@stewartmcdonald6163]

@@lastwymsi I will never recover from this.

[@abiean222]

@@stewartmcdonald6163 autocorrect is evil.

[@perfectlydiverse]

I love how Matt responded to Brennan's epic story example with a "I will take your story and raise you another story". Haha

[@nicktheanticlause1313]

I do milestone in most cases, not just because I like working it into the narrative, but because figuring how much XP certain things are worth, dealing it out, etc is all just more book keeping, and that's time that could be used on more creative things.

[@Reiner5200]

I also like that everyone is the same level in the party. You're not the only one contributing to fights or getting carried.

[@MyAramil]

It also means that there could be times when they do a lot in a short span of time ( talking like 2/3 sessions) where with XP they may not get the points to level up, but what they did was monumental, so it felt appropriate to level them up.

[@jish55]

Also, milestones are better when you have players who don't do a damn thing, where if you were using the xp system, would most likely be forced to give them the same amount of xp.

[@fred_derf]

@@MyAramil, writes _"It also means that there could be times when they do a lot in a short span of time ( talking like 2/3 sessions) where with XP they may not get the points to level up, but what they did was monumental, so it felt appropriate to level them up."_ So, award XP for the other things they were doing that wasn't fighting monsters...

[@rodrigocampos1302]

One year later, the Bad Kids meets the Rat Grinders

[@TheKarishi]

Brennan: Literally advocates by saying how the party leveling up too fast inconveniences an evil overlord. Also Brennan: So now I'm a tyrant?

[@DelightfulTyrant]

Matt is wrong and stupid. His argument relies on a massive fallacy of a bad gm/party, which exists in the XP argument as well (a bad GM control your XP, a bad player steals it). He is arguing a poorly thought out point, one that requires the opposition to be flawed while his is in a mythical 'perfect' zone. All arguments being equal, and all groups being equal, he is wrong. Meanwhile, he focuses on the "game" part of RPG... the role playing matters more, period.

[@Surokkh]

@@DelightfulTyrant This is some god-tier bait holy shit

[@Wryyyyyyyyyyyyu]

@@DelightfulTyrant Fed posts worst bait ever, forced to leave the bureau of investigation

[@firstnamelastname7298]

@@Surokkh read the first sentence and immediately wanted to type back. This man has talent in evoking emotions

[@farrex0]

@@DelightfulTyrant You are a tyrant alright, but you forgot to be delightful.

[@GrugTheJust]

I now have an ettin comprised of Matt and Brennan's mentalities. "So now I'm a tyrant, so that's what it is!" "You're not a tyrant, you're just not paying attention." Perfect.

[@giraffedragon6110]

Great, now I have an idea for a high INT Ettin NPC arguing about hard numbers earning vs making his employees happy.

[@chad8767]

How do you want to do this? No, how do YOU want to do this? I insist, how do you want to do this?

[@Ookler]

I love the idea of Steve, the god, that missed most of the sessions but happened to be there for the climax.

[@RemingtonDean]

Honestly, every pantheon needs that one god that probably shouldn't be there 😂

[@candiddraconian3676]

@@RemingtonDean Zote

[@andrewl9191]

I've got a d&d club that I run at the library where I work. It's basically open to anybody, and it's hilarious when somebody who's relatively new shows up and we're like, "Ok, here's a premade level 8 character and, uh, good luck!" We're getting quite near the end, but still.

[@paulcoy9060]

Like the guy in the first Gamer's movie who pops out from behind a tree while they are in marching order. "Oh, yeah, Mark's here."

[@jlighter1]

Fun book series, _Spells, Swords, and Stealth_ by Drew Hayes, includes in the pantheon one Grumble, the God of Minions, who became a deity by being the test subject of a powerful mage working on a new ritual. Delightful bit of world-building there, and the series itself is a lot of fun.

[@blackfox4138]

This really goes to show how skilled these two are at GMing. They both understand the two different preferences, why people prefer them, and can solidly debate for both sides. That's the difference between someone who fully understands the game vs someone who only wants to play their way.

[@aidenyaun6052]

I love this forced witty banter from my two favorite dms with the utmost of imaginative storytelling ever, it’s nerdy and perfect

[@user-br2dw8no4r]

So iconic to see two of D&D’s master debaters just go at it like this

[@WhyYouMadBoi]

Take out the "de"

[@aquamarinerose5405]

@@WhyYouMadBoiCongratulations, you got the joke that sam reigel made himself by saying "Master Debater" in the first place.

[@Ardorstorm]

I love it when master debaters and master baiters go at it I wonder if they'd argue about fish

[@hereandnow3156]

I would watch Matt and Brennan masterfully debate each other off all day.

[@c0dy99]

​@@aquamarinerose5405 I'm gonna watch that ad right after this

[@millermbe]

Petition: For all debates to REQUIRE mandatory narrative descriptions like these 2 with there intro monolog

[@OnTheRoadwiththeWolf]

Also darken the room, single lighting on the speaker, and instrumental background music. :)

[@Adam_Wilde]

I LOVE that Matt and Brennan are friends.

[@benjamingraham5464]

Anyone else coming back to this after FHJY EP 4?

[@ChPman]

I think it would be cool if there was an XP/Milestone system. Like you you can level up to certain levels just from experience, but other levels require you to accomplish something. One could argue Level 3 is where things start to get interesting for most classes so that could be a milestone level (finish the first big quest or dungeon), but you can accomplish Level 2 just from killing a few goblins.

[@glitchlord9720]

I’m actually planning to do that for my next D&D campaign, most of the levels are reached just through XP but certain levels can only be achieved through doing certain story things, or fighting certain bosses. That way the players can feel accomplished for just going around fighting goblins, but they’re never too overpowered to fight some of the bosses that are supposed to be more difficult.

[@Solanaar]

​@@glitchlord9720 There is just one issue with that: What happens, when a player doesn't reach the level before the milestone level? If level 3 is the milestone. Do they jump 2 levels instantly when the milestone is reached and they are still lvl1? So that means the levels in between are kind of meaningless, especially if you reach the milestones quickly. You can just skip the levels? Or: lets do it the other way around. You have to reach the level before that to get the milestone level up. This would mean if a player is still lvl 1 and they reach the milestone they dont get it. Imagine the player would say: "can you please wait with advancing the story, I need to kill a few spiders first." as they stand before the door to the bbeg's general's throne room. Or they go ahead and just... miss the level up at the climax. A nice dm would give it to them as soon as they leveled to 2, a more strict dm could rule that they missed that milestone so now they have to wait for the next, but then everyone else is always a milestone ahead which would suck immensely. I don't think combining the two systems like that is a good idea. There is another option, but it wouldn't work with 5e without some modifications: have one path be governed by xp, the other by milestones. it could be your class levels are xp bases, while your sub class improves with each milestone. Or xp gives you ASI and Feats, maybe more resource points and spells at certain levels, while milestones unlock the more "meaty" features and skills. But that would significantly change the progression curve and would require at least some knowledge and feel for how this would impact balancing and pacing. So yeah, I'd be careful with that idea. It sounds cool, but will it work like that in actual play?

[@glitchlord9720]

@@Solanaar ohhh, that’s a really good point…

[@matohibiki]

@@Solanaar Meh, I just make X amount of battles a milestone, too. 10-ish fights? Enjoy your level, folks. Fights go really easy? Ok, make it 12-ish fights. Really struggling? 8 fights, ding.

[@menitianrebator3355]

In pathfinder the mythic levels are milestones if you use them

[@dungeonguy88]

I love that they're both really trying to lean into their side of the argument. And at the same time, whenever the other one's talking they both have such a look of: "Yeah, I've been there. He's not wrong." I love listening to these discussions between DMs, because there's always that easy understanding, that sense that other DMs will quickly start nodding when you go off and know exactly what you're talking about.

[@c0dy99]

"a little bit too many monsters" is one of my favourite lines. I don't know why, but it gives me a good giggle

[@mikavanpolen8418]

As a new DM that had to bullshit a way out of a TPK because the level 3 bard and cleric had to fight 9 wolves by themselves because the barbarian couldn't come for last session... starting to know how that feels.

[@Wenzel368]

"Group of bozos" is what always sets me off 😂

[@AleksiJoensuu]

Love the kind of interplay between energies. Matt starts of calm like a sane, normal person. Then Brennan just BRINGS IT and we take off from there 😄

[@kristen_mason]

this hits different after the rat grinders are introduced in FHJY

[@RawwkinGrimmie64]

My favorite part of this debate was the narrative improv. Weaving a beautiful adventuring scene, just to have someone mere moments later, with equal eloquence, twist your own words against you for their own point. That was beautiful.

[@davidgottschalt9178]

I’m team milestone all the way but that’s also because I don’t have random encounters, when I do combat it’s planned and meant to be a challenge so usually the challenge is met with a reward and most of the times it’s a level up

[@threesoftrees]

random encounters originated as punishment for the players dragging their feet/getting stuck in a loop. They barely gave any experience, they fit more elegantly in treasure=experience systems.

[@KN-oc7cu]

Yeah do a similar but opposite thing, where i mainly rely on XP, but i plan most every encounter ahead of time so o know exactly where the pace they will be going anyway. but added in i give experience for social encounters. You just convinced the king not to send his groups to war, that sounds like 1000 XP. Found a clever way to sneak around the battle o planned, that's xp too! And i lump all XP given at the end of the session. So essentially I'm saying the manner at which i give out XP is so haphazard and ambiguous that I'm basically milestone leveling

[@steeplewiththesnakes]

@@threesoftrees the xp reward for some random encounters can be too high imo, but it does make the table more invested in the encounters. And I love random encounters since they're a function that describes the world + the probability of running into elements of that world. Although treasure to xp and a nerf to combat xp would be a great change for 5e.

[@countjondi9672]

@@KN-oc7cu You hold onto the weakness of the middle, you lack the will it would take to escape the thin veneer of lies you have told yourself, you are so close young one. You can enter the domain of righteous kings or forever be marked as the fool that clings to their points of experience, toiling away what brainpower could be spent on envisioning a most grand adventure at figuring out what the level adjusted point gain is appropriate for a level 4 party fighting 14 goblins. Just take that last step. Have the ability to look upon yourself and marvel that you have told yourself one less lie this day. Embrace the milestone system and that too can be a milestone for which you can ascend to the next level of Dungeon master.

[@deeznuttes9340]

@@countjondi9672 my dm exclusively uses xp, and if we ever switched to milestone. 90% of our table would fucking quit. Noone at our table wants to be that hard railroaded by the dm, and meticulously planning EVERY combat encounter sounds like fucking aids.

[@user-ff3lm6kq8v]

"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." Brilliant.

[@Anduril74871]

Or whenever certain races or classes can reroll a d20. Take your pick.

[@alalalala57]

Or whenever there's too many monsters.

[@jeromejerome9395]

I believe that is Seneca the Younger

[@krisantusliang9595]

that was from operah i think

[@hazeltree7738]

Or when you get lucky. You can't tell me that needing a break from school and then suddenly getting a snow day is preparation or opportunity

[@frosty7670]

It's basically a charisma roll-off between Matt and Brennan

[@WallySketch]

I like the flexibility of XP. Awarding XP not only for monsters, but for quests, exploration and social interactions. XP really let the player feel that they are progressing instead of waiting for the DM to spontaneously decide that they leveled up.

[@MadMathMike]

I hate the debate format in almost every context (religion, politics, philosophy, etc), but I LOVE the debate between these two around this sort of topic. 🤣🤣🤣

[@kalewintermute28]

It's always nice when these two have a conversation, regardless of the subject.

[@BntyNoakes]

anytime these 2 get together, it's golddust content never stop

[@Len923_]

My group recently decided to go a bit hybrid with this. Me and the other players can still "gather" XP as normal (both from combat and non-combat, at that) BUT DM-defined story milestones act as level caps. This allows us to feel like we're still earning the levels all on our own, without forcing infinite escalation on the DM's end just to challenge us.

[@wakouf]

I immagine it's like, the lair of the next boss is capped to level 5, your players are level 4.They can go do side quests but cannot go passed levl 5 before defeating the boss. But they still gather XP towards the next cap.

[@WizardBrandon]

@@wakouf gaining xp over the cap might just end up spiking your players as soon as they defeat the boss

[@Zack_Wester]

same in fact our GM at times blocked us from gaining level from killing weaker monsters at level 3 wolfs no longer gives XP. that said we had milestones so after we Climbed the Mountain range, we traversed the desert and we finally got to the town we was heading towards containing a magical trees. we charged the magical fuits we had carried and then ate them. we got a level and several of us got a unick trait or skill. that said if we had arrived there way to low level we would had been told that we can´t eat the fruit (like they was made of pure diamond or something).

[@Noobie2k7]

We actually trialed something similar in one of our test games not long ago for a hybrid leveling system. You csn level through exp but some class features require milestones to unlock. You can still get stronger and level down the list but like to get that next class feature you need to wait till you meet the person who teaches it to you or wait until your next long rest so your god can visit you in a dream etc etc.

[@Noobie2k7]

We've always done that fr feats and some other side abilities anyway as none of myself or my party like having to pick between ASI or a feat so I just say to my players that if there's a feat they want then they can talk to me about it and I'll find a way to add into the world a way for them to work for it. Like one player wanted to learn Elven Accuracy. So I put into a town a traveling Elven Hunter who the player could meet and try to persuade to teach them the ways Elves use bows. He still had to find said person and then persuade them to teach him, with gold, time and a check or two.

[@timfriday9106]

I honestly like a combination of milestone and EXP. Like, when you hit a milestone, the DM doles out an amount of EXP that makes you hit half level or level etc.

[@elmorgano81]

I will never stop wanting more Brennan and Matt collaborations or just them in a room talking. Two DM'ing geniuses, fascinating and hilarious to watch.

[@stevebusiness965]

When I saw the thumbnail, I started breaking down the points in my head. Then it turned this wasn't a discussion, but a comedy improve routine. And I'm here for it.

[@Jornunvosk]

The thing is when I used XP, I still chose whenever my players leveled up anyway bc I precalculated how much each encounter is going to give them. So milestone just cuts out the middleman and incentivizes them to not have to fight everything to the death

[@PureGoldNeverCorrodes]

So they can’t create their own storybeats to grind xp?

[@Jornunvosk]

@@PureGoldNeverCorrodes they could and can but I’m just pretty good at predicting where my players are headed next and what will be there waiting for them. I’ve very rarely ever been completely surprised by something in almost half a decade of DM-ing, so I just had those numbers ready

[@crunkers_]

Right? And I don't have to calculate the XP of individual monsters before each session.

[@thewingedserpent5823]

@@PureGoldNeverCorrodes The way games like Pathfinder WOTR do it that fighting gives very little exp while quests give a ton so all the fights that you don't have to take might give you 1 extra level over the whole game at most.

[@crunkers_]

@@thewingedserpent5823 Wow. I love that.

[@TomVCunningham]

These men are both masters. Matt is the Zen Master and Brennan is the Drunken Master. They are the Jet Li and Jackie Chan of Dungeon Mastering.

[@KyRex1783]

So this segment was Forbidden Kingdom?

[@TomVCunningham]

@@KyRex1783 LOL YES.

[@KyRex1783]

@@TomVCunningham Gotcha ^^ Yeah I can see it

[@TrueRomancer04]

Beautifully spoken.

[@psychodrummer1567]

@TomVCunningham Okay, so if in your analogy Matt is Jet Li and Brennan is Jackie Chan, then who is Donnie Yen?

[@Nathanfx2006]

How can both be so right 🤣 Matt introduced me to DnD and Brennan made me fall in love with it. Both are legends.

[@honbrolo]

I would love to see Aabria, Brennan and Matt do a mini-series where they each go against each other dueling with the Till the Last Gasp tabletop game along with other guests. Maybe even like a mini-series tournament. They all have so much amazing improv and imagination that it would be great to see how things play out with each other.

[@xMajikMaestrox]

"You're not a tyrant, you're just not paying attention"

[@samg3495]

Watching them monologue at eachother is like watching a rap battle of masters

[@Bearthedancingman]

Its pure joy listening to you guys try to out-do each other when you describe a scene.

[@voshadxgathic]

Ultimately, I believe it comes down to the players at the table. It's no different than having a heavy roleplay group or a hack and slash group or whatever, they all have their own niche they prefer. How people like to be rewarded works the same way.

[@cyro8039]

Personally I prefer milestone because it encourages more than just combat. XP leveling puts players too often in a grindy mindset, and I just want them to live in my cool world and flow through it naturally

[@RoderickEtheria]

You can give experience points for non-combat encounters. In fact, you might even give more experience points for a clever solution to a problem that doesn't boil down to just a brawl.

[@AlyssMa7rin]

Easy fix as a DM is to give Non-Combat encounters, or encounters that could have ended in combat but were instead avoided through use of RP and skills, XP values of a relevant CR

[@Zeno11Salazar]

This animation is amazing, these characters almost seem like real-life people. But their energy is so chaotic and cartoonish, it really reminds you they are just wacky cartoons.

[@AurasFeel]

Community juggernauts throwing down right here. Love these lads

[@yummydeathbird]

My general rule is to use XP throughout the bulk of the adventure so the players (and me lol) get a good sense of when they'll be leveling up, and also seeing their xp go up gives them something to be excited about! But also if there's a moment in the story that just makes sense for them to level up, then by golly they'll be leveling up lol

[@Engreth564]

This is almost word for word the level system I use. I find it too easy for rolls from one side or another to difficult a given encounter is, which if you're using a milestone system, can lead to player expectation of levels even if the fight in question wasn't really anything particularly special, just hard. As a result I prefer to keep the XP number value as the norm, with major quests, events, and quality play being the factor that invokes what I call "Milestone rewards". Did you finally solve the mystery of your father's murder and get revenge for your family after a grueling fight through the psychopath's torture dungeons, filled with mangled undead corpses, horrific sewn-together-abominations left over after his "Experiments..."? Well, I don't care if the base XP number doesn't say that you level up, this is a milestone for that character. They don't happen often, but they are big for the player and the campaign when they do happen

[@TrixyTrixter]

I like to call this the story beat XP reward, and it just happens to be enough to level up at this particular moment because it makes sense.

[@piemaniac9410]

@@TrixyTrixter this is called milestone XP by the DMG. Essentially, you don’t just give out XP for combat, but also for any major story beats too. It’s a nice in-between IMO since XP gives the players a track to pay attention to while narrative XP awards allows the DM to adjust the pace during low combat sections of the game.

[@bettreon]

I use this too. Though I rarely dm.

[@skullkrusher-dx4kg]

I love how you guys are crafting a story as the debate goes on.

[@ismlamaroof6438]

Matt's kinda arguing against himself, tbh. He's talking about someone putting in the work, day in and day out, to accomplish some task, but then he's still referencing THAT task that was accomplished. That's a milestone. In XP leveling he could be working day in and day out on something and he levels up before he even finishes the task or he completes it but still doesn't have enough XP to level up so nothing changed.

[@ninoextendo9680]

Or alternatively, he would randomly level up before doing the task.

[@evangregory14]

Here's a big thing most people miss. Milestone leveling also uses XP, at least per RAW. You just get XP at certain milestones instead of only for killing things.

[@steeplewiththesnakes]

As the modules are written, you get a half a level / a level / etc rather than an xp value. It's fair that XP is solely rewarded for killing RAW in 5e, but milestones are also rewarded for pre-planned events under DM Fiat, so it's still a restrictive selection of activities that could lead to advancement.

[@RenethDeshmira]

Yes. According to the DMG, what the community commonly calls Milestone is actually Story-Based Advancement or, less commonly, Session Based Advancement. Milestone is tied to XP by the book.

[@xapimaze]

I take "milestone leveling" to be the same as "Story-Based Advancement" (DMG 261). I'm not clear on what the best term is for "granting XP for milestones among other things", but "XP" seems reasonable for the moment since its an option under normal XP. As a player, I despise "Story-Based Advancement". To me it seems to staunch creativity. It seems to remove decisions from the party and gives them to the DM (i.e. it tends to railroad). Playing it feels like acting in someone else's very slow moving book. Thanks, but no thanks.

[@leifparadox608]

"You're not a tyrant you just aren't paying attention" what a line

[@ChickenSoupMusic]

Reminds me of the saying - never assign evil intent to what you can assign stupidity 😂

[@John-ir4id]

I like to do a mix of both. Give them XP so they can see their progress through the more mundane parts of the adventure, but I also use milestone leveling - once they arrive at a key place, discover a key artifact, or beat a significant enemy - to make sure they're neither too far behind nor too far ahead of the level/difficulty curve when they get to pivotal points in the story. The only thing worse than having them steamroll your BBEG is having them get destroyed in a few turns because they were under level. *Another tactic I use, if they insist on power gaming and grinding, is to have the XP gains from common enemies drop off after a certain point, pushing the group to progress further into the story.

[@tylerbarnhart8739]

And the Rat Grinders were born

[@canadiangopnik7007]

I just imagine *You kill Groth'nor the Ruthless, Cheiftan of the tribe* "I don't have enough xp" *you kill 2 goblin minions in the next room* "I level up" It's just narratively unsatisfying, if your players need to chase those numbers, let them chase the loot, give them coins or potions or other cool shit

[@shayshay1313]

Hi guys, it's weird being here alone...

[@sentientoyster]

I am also in your walls

[@robertkvicala4226]

I am also also in your walls.

[@seacowxxx]

There's a few of us in the walls now tbh

[@Aweman11]

Can you get help? We got stuck in your walls.

[@sentientoyster]

Its kinda become a problem with how many people are in here

[@yutti311]

Fresh DM here: I Do both. My players have a mini arc that is their adventure and milestone. But at the end of every session, before they pack up they all look at me and one of them asks "how much XP do we get? " they like being able to measure progress everyone gets a base XP for being there and then if their character had spotlight moments they get a bonus. Every player gets a spotlight season where they are the star. They really seem to enjoy it.

[@danielpayne1597]

Smart choice!

[@josephstone4842]

I love how much their enjoying themselves. It’s fun to see people get to do what they love.

[@aesthera.]

My group has been playing for 5 years and we just reached level 18 cause we decided we’re actually leveling based on XP only (we play 3.5e)

[@R3dS0ulSnak3]

❤ 3.5 ❤

[@AlyssMa7rin]

The superior Edition of D&D. I'm stuck as the Forever DM and never actually get to enjoy the D&D of my youth.

[@roisintaylor1739]

I like the idea of having a bit of both. Using experience for unlocking cool combat , gathering and parkour skills but also having milestone perks unlocked. Often I only see the latter towards endgames and I think that's a shame.

[@sonscorpion2073]

Man after watching this I can say for certain that both of these dudes, but especially brennan, know a lot of words

[@ErdTirdMans]

I'll be using milestone in future campaigns, but for my first big one, I wanted to use experience to keep ME honest as I familiarized myself with the intended progression and all that jazz

[@ItsBofu]

The perfect finisher for Brennan would've been for him to respond to Matt's final point by saying "Yeah! And you know what we call those moments? MILESTONES!" But they both had great points.

[@DerNameT]

And thus, the Rat Grinders were born

[@victormagoco9752]

I have been thinking about it…XP leveling’s main weakness is how it can banalize the gain of power with sudden unexplained power gain, while Milestone feels less fair because it doesn’t track the individual accomplishments earned by each player, therefore I suggest we take inspiration from Dark Souls and not only make leveling up part of the world building, but also make it so the players can only level up in certain special locations, this way you can have fun accumulating XP points while still giving the DM control over the party’s power level and the story’s rhythm

[@quadcannon]

Great series. I want more discussions between Matt and Brennan.

[@EasilyBoredGamer]

I just enjoy XP because it makes me feel rewarded for exploring more and having personal goals instead of gaining power off of gm fiat. That and seeing the number, seeing how close I am to my next level, my next ability is a strong out of game motivator while in every milestone campaign I've played in every session keeps ending with "so do we gain a level."

[@crunkers_]

I prefer milestone myself but I agree with all your points. Gaining experience feels good and the asking for a level up thing can be a problem.

[@steeplewiththesnakes]

For sure. Xp makes things feel more egalitarian.

[@borofreak]

Hard agree, Bored Gamer. The incremental advancement you see is very rewarding, and it's also great feedback about your efforts and achievements. If you think about what types of rewards you have in a classic D&D game without XP, you'd be hard pressed to list more than 2. Money? Sure, but also everyone and their grandma will agree it feels unfulfilling in D&D. Items? Yes, sir, that's a good one. Fame? Good luck measuring that. Social status / Reputation / whatever-fancy-word-you-wanna-use? Yeah, still not easy to put a number to, but not impossible. I'll add boons, which can't be nearly as common as anything else at all. Favours, followers, real-estate... However, it's likely that you probably stopped listing after Money and Items, which is - again - typical and common for about 99% of the games out there. Even if you'd always include them, they're all difficult to use as clear, transparent rewards, and most of them can't come in quick succession, so you really space them out, as awesome as they are. Unlike XP however, which you can dole out literally every session, so there's a good reason to use it and make your players' brains go "brrrrrr" with happiness and dopamine. Finally, to anyone defending the point of "I'll give too much and they'll advance too quickly", try reading about XP for random encounters (hint: it's mega low, sometimes even zero) and calculating XP based on an encounter per party level basis instead of looking at the monster stat block (trust me, it's a ton easier and quicker). Oh, and also about requiring a good ole' downtime period after the END of an adventure for a party to be able to level up (not the mid-adventure bullshit).

[@CloudianMH]

XP needs to be curated by a good DM. Otherwise it doesn't work. IF you're just playing a battle sim with dnd instead of roleplaying, sure. That's fine.

[@CloudianMH]

@@crunkers_ people should never ask for a level up. Theres a disconnect between what system is good for what people. If you're roleplaying, milestone is much better. If you're just doing murder hobo battlesims. XP is okay, but you need a good DM who can curate that.

[@leahs819]

I want to know if Matt and Brennan put the ability score modifier in the big box or the little bubble on the character sheet

[@OGEdger]

Now THAT would be a good debate.

[@Lrbearclaw]

Answer is neither. Only write the score without modifier and make people cry.

[@lyaneris]

I always thought putting it into the small bubble made more sense, since it's the smaller number, but apparently most people do it the other way around?

[@potatoking2161]

@@lyaneris put the important number in the big box

[@lyaneris]

@@potatoking2161 But it looks nicer to have the big one in the larger box, though ^^

[@DaftBrian1]

This debate created the Ratgrinders IMHO

[@Its_Cannon]

I love the creative collaboration of the party and the soul stone, that just kept growing in lore depth as the debate kept going on.

[@modtyrant1784]

You need both, learning is both a repetition thing and a spontaneous thing. I use both XP and mile stones ( in the form of levels gained vs any requirements for those mile stones )

[@ProxCyde]

Yeah. I don't get this mutual exclusivity surrounding this. Both makes the most sense to me anyway.

[@Sadarsa]

I've always been a fan of incorporating both methods at the same time. Keep track of your XP and level up normally, but then gain power (+1 level) through story events. It's the best of both worlds, your players feel their character growth, but they also are encouraged to advance the story rather than be "murder hobos"

[@Cornu341]

That is why I love the EXP buy methode used in VTM. I will allow slow increments over time just during the sessions, but try to put a good narrative before the players acquire some big mystical powers. For sure, everything done after speaking with the players, so that we are all on the same board.

[@TheLastSane1]

See VTM V20, New Age Blood Magic ritual lvl 5 The Pursuit of Apotheosis. Thats how you milestone a blood magic. Here let me drink your souls and I will ascend to godhood

[@TrAnMu]

Brennan got so fired up he made Matt the big bad of a whole D20 season.

[@brettfletcher6547]

These guys ability to paint a picture with words is insane.

[@ForeverDegenerate]

Wait wait wait... did Matt Mercer just use Scanlan Shorthalt as an argument against Milestone Levelling? That's AWESOME!

[@williamlawson3039]

Lol I always did both, experience point leveling but only after certain things have been done. I'd have things be done each session of roleplay, at the end of the night if you were still alive and you participated you could level. Though I've got to say I liked the way AEC did Legend of the Five Rings. You could level up skills gradually but would only increase in rank after you get to a certain amount of skills points.

[@Z1gguratVert1go]

I'm always trying to make time pass more slowly in-universe to better spread out the player's progression. One way is to avoid giant dungeons but have lots of scattered dungeons and encountered that take time to find or get to. Back in the day healing magic was not so "on tap" all the time, so you'd have to find somewhere safe to heal up and that could take weeks. You can just skip that time and keep playing, but the world keeps ticking on and it can be very advantageous to players and DM alike. Like the big fighter is healing up so the wizard has a chance to make that magic item he's been wanting to make, now it's a few weeks later in-game and summer is over and fall has started (I found that seasons changing really gives campaigns a sense of time passing like almost nothing else can).

[@Letgo13inG]

I will throw in as well that if your doing a more open world campaign, the exp route gives more value to side quests and can encourage the players to explore the world outside of the main story. If your doing a more railroaded campaign, I can see more of an argument for milestones.

[@lovelylavender67]

I love how both of them are holding back laughter and Matt is failing and Brennan is trying his best and also failing

[@MotiviqueStudio]

I love how Matt is able to get such amazing digs in with laughter and love.

[@PastelCerulean]

"You're not a tyrant, you're just not paying attention." Is one of the best comebacks I've ever heard.

[@theend2227]

The delivery on that final piece "you are just not paying attention" killed me hahaha wasn't expecting that. Amazing DMs both.

[@thesupersaiyanginger132]

This aged real well ever since junior year came out

[@James-tk6vm]

Both. Simply make Exp work like heart pieces in older zelda games. Bosses give full heart containers and throughout the world there are scattered pieces of heart, when you get 4 of these that's a level up. Exp for quests rather than killing monsters, perhaps a difficult side quest could be worth one or two if it's really hard while an easy side quest could just worth gold or items.