Bret Weinstein & Heather Heying: Atheism Has Failed the West

[@DadSavesAmerica]

Hi there friends! If you haven't seen the full conversation with Bret and Heather, I think you'll appreciate it. For what it's worth, I thought I'd pin a little personal addendum here regarding my own faith, since my answer here was very much incomplete and off-the-cuff (especially for my Christian viewers and commenters who've already raised some valid questions). I'll be doing more videos on faith as well, so subscribe if you're interested in more open-hearted exploration on this very essential topic. Okay, so, here's the thing. I was raised Catholic and went to 12 years of Catholic school. But it's only in the past 3-4 years that my religion has come back into the foreground of my life as an adult. There's lots of reasons well beyond what I talk about in this clip, but everything I said here is true as well. There's a rich and deep intellectual tradition that I've started to geek out about in Catholicism (I think that's at least partly why all 6 conservative Supreme Court justices are Catholic). All fun for a heady guy that likes philosophy... But in the past year and especially in the past six months, my relationship with God and Christ has deepened dramatically. At the core of my personal faith is the belief in the core of Christianity and Catholicism: Jesus as son of God, His Resurrection, and His incredible and real presence in the sacrament of the Eucharist. THIS is the core of my faith. Not fun philosophy or interesting observations about math and physics or worry about the demonic ideals destroying civilization. Now, if you like what we're doing here and don't care about faith in general or mine in particular, no worries. I'm lucky to have you here and hope you get value out of everything we do on this channel. But if you're a fellow Christian who cares about advancing the Truth and not muddling things in vague new age gobbledegook... I'm right there with you. At the end of the day, I'm very much on a journey on this front, just as I am as a dad and concerned American. I'm exploring this part of reality with a beginner's mind (and plenty of uncertainty and healthy skepticism too) and hope you're up for all kinds of questions and mistakes along the way.

[@pherwhite]

Hey John - i just started going back to church myself. I grew up with some expereince in non-denominational church and "felt it", but ultimately rejected it all because I became a rational science guy. Now I am back armed with years of meditation, a catholic girlfriend, and teh illuminations of JP. And my heart is just so full of love and appreciation for these time honored traditions. i like the old school approach as well. it feels more sincere and rightly focused. Thanks for all you do. I love what you are putting out.

[@zaknefain100]

I can totally understand and respect this.. even as a non-believer, who's closest group of friends are Christian. I think these past 4 years have had us all scratching our heads and reevaluating a lot of things. If that brings some closer to their faith? I think that's wonderful. Me, it's just made me question more and more... "how did we get here" and when you look back, and start examining things, it becomes quite clear that we--and I say that as an agnostic, who embraces those of faith as well--never saw this coming... and we should have. First, academia.. then, the public schools and the the framing of every social issue. You are moral (like us) or if against us, immoral. Really set some bells and whistles off for me, and down the rabbit hole we go. Yes... we have seen all of this before. It's only been weaponized as critical race theory, critical que_r theory, etc., but the goal is all the same; to tear down the structure of society and build something new & "better" in its place. I am glad for the work you, Bret and others do on this front to raise awareness. We need to all come together if we're going to combat this nonsense... for our nation and our children.

[@DadSavesAmerica]

I really appreciate this comment, my friend. Thank you. We are definitely in strange times. The mooring lines are being actively cut.

[@SpiritualPsychotherapyServices]

​@@DadSavesAmerica, Bret is an EXPERT in informal logical fallacies. 🤡

[@johnnygoodman2003]

Wait. How many atheists are in the west? If you are going to say atheism failed, shouldn't a significant percent of society have to try it? Also, where is the data that shows anyone tried atheism and which versions (for example, philosophy idealistic, Buddhists, taoists, north west Hindus, plain none believers, ex Christians, etc).

[@williamcuthbertson6575]

I like Brett and Heather, but what they are suggesting is that we go back to modern (19th & 20th) liberal Christianity. They need to read some recent church history. Those institutions slid down the slipper slope of modernism in a matter of decades because they thought that they needed to adapt the faith to our modern world.

[@LawrenceNicholas-z3u]

Excellent point

Thought the same but could not have said it better.

[@Featherfinder]

Yes, mistakes have been made and that is for sure. But Jesus Christ is still alive and well. Christianity is not over and it never will be.

[@botchvinik8668]

I felt that there was a flaw in what Bret was saying with regards to what he calls "a Shamanistic side of religion" that must be incorporated into the way forward to save the West, but i hadn't yet figured out how to put it into words. You just did. Thank you and well said.

[@view1st]

Religions, like organisms, evolve. Or go extinct. Simple as. [And this is the case even if your don't subscribe to the scientific theory evolution.]

[@gy5240]

Truth doesn't change, society does. Trying to change truth to suit society is exactly what has gotten us in this mess! He has this all mixed up because he can't let go of his atheistic worldview while also admitting it doesn't work.

[@Strux42]

Your traditions are your truth. So, your truth is a human and societal construct. Good luck.

[@Wahawk71]

Maybe not traditions but belief in a God. Our modern world tries to either deny the existence of God or conform beliefs in God to fit our into our modern technological world .

[@amyb.6368]

@@Strux42 Traditions are just a bunch of policies of living that have been proven to work over generations. They can change if the environment changes, but I think we're fooling ourselves to think of the past as a place where nothing ever changed. AKA, traditions DO account for change, so I don't think we should be so quick to lay them aside just because we have internet and airplanes.

[@Featherfinder]

@@Strux42 Actually truth exists. Truth is unaffected by our opinions about it. We are not the authors of truth. God is the author of truth.

[@stevenwayne4467]

@@Strux42you just defined, in the simplest of terms, the exact thinking that has led to our current state of affairs. Truth is not malleable. Truth is objectively true: "If there are no absolutes by which to judge society, the society is absolute". -Francis Schaeffer

[@robwindsor6373]

Christianity isn't concerned with society, as a first order of effect, but with the relationship to Almighty God. Once this is understood, the second and third order come into view. It is about the relationship to the universe's creator, not man's religion. Having said that, I absolutely love Bret and Helther's journey. I've been a follower of their Darkhorse podcast since the first episode and pray for each of them and their family, in the might name of Jesus.

[@mattiaskallin]

I disagree. I think religion in general and christianity in particular is in it's function primatily about getting society to work by regulating interactions and relations between humans. The rest is adornment.

[@davidanderson6055]

You are correct about biblical Christianity. Catholicism has a very different conception of the institutional church's relationship to government and society.

[@johnsmithers8913]

​​@@mattiaskallin If you read the new testament this certainly was not the goal. "Give unto Ceaser what is Caesar's" It's pretty clear that JC focused on how the individual acted with regard to other individuals and never cared about how society was structured and it could be argued that this was only necessary to prepare for the new kingdom . The focus was on the world that was going to replace this one. Making Jesus somehow theologically a socialist is pure fantasy. Now does an individual's cultural behavior of human interaction make up society? Of course, that what society is.

[@skylinefever]

@@davidanderson6055 700 Club and Focus On The Family sure wants to be the ruling class. I joke about how they would create Karenocracy.

[@carlosenriquegonzalez-isla6523]

Jesus, Mary and Joseph 😣

[@mapinoita279]

Brett and Heather, you don’t get it yet, but you’re groping your way there, like many of us believers did. Pray for faith. Pray for guidance. Pray for signs and synchronicities. TELL God that you don’t believe, that you think it’s all evolution, and nothing more. Approach Him as you are. God bless you both!❤

[@zaknefain100]

This is exactly the problem. Once we accept that everyone has their own journey, and that it might not lead to the same place yours did, you can begin to actually accept those who found something else.. whether it be a different religion or, no religion at all. I 'pray' that you can come to understand that...

[@BouncySlim1]

I see them on their way .........but it feels like they are hanging onto rationality/logic/science to try and gain understanding. Faith works differently because it's belief in the unseen. Maybe they want tangibles in the form of proof.

[@zaknefain100]

@@BouncySlim1 Or perhaps they're indifferent to religion. The pursuit of rationality, logic and reasoning is as rewarding a pursuit as any other. If you want to know, "why do magnets attract" and I told you, "because they just do". That might be a satisfactory answer for you... but it won't be for a scientific mind that wants a deep understanding of the natural world. Religion is great... I take zero issues with it or people who do... but for some, it does not yield satisfactory answers and guess what? We need both types of people to make this world work.

[@MariaPerez-uv8mm]

Exactly 👏

[@johnedinger1175]

Me thinks you lack humility

[@happycampers7889]

“The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬ ‭ESV‬‬

[@ramigilneas9274]

Funny that this was written at a time when 99,99% of all people believed in God or Gods.

[@godslittleman5451]

Excellent comment - “god has made foolish the wisdom of this world.” As a Bible believer, you could redirect the entire conversation with a few simple truths. 1. Men are hopelessly lost in sin - “the heart of man is deceitful above all things are desperately wicked……” Jeremiah 17 2. The law of God cannot be fully kept by sinful men 3. God is extremely punitive towards those who reject his truth 4. Christ died to set us free from the curse of the law fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law for us 5. Christ was raised by the Holy Spirit so that we may also be raised in a new body of mysterious description 6. Ironically, when we receive his Spirit, he writes his law in our hearts and we become slaves of righteousness 7. As his children, we do not “make void the law through faith, nay we establish the law.” 8. It pleases God through the foolishness of preaching that men might be saved; Saved from the wrath of God that is.

[@PD-iu9bn]

⁠@@ramigilneas9274But in the first century less than a fraction of a percent believed in the Alpha and Omega creator God Paul is referring to. The one, true God. Only the church believed in the God as He revealed Himself in Yeshua Ha’Mashiac.

[@margyeoman3564]

​@@ramigilneas9274Believe and accept are two different things. The NATURE of man does not want God or His way , but self's own way. It builds whole philosophies on that. Swawthed in man's wisdom.

[@giselefranca3182]

​@@ramigilneas9274Nope. The Jews, the Pharisees, and the Sadducees rejected Jesus!

[@hrvad]

I have been an atheist, satanist, gnostic, hermeticist, socialist ... but I repeat myself. I am currently converting back to Christianity, I want to come home to God, and I think he looks forward to that. I'm not good at it, but I have prayed recently. There's a certain guy out there who needs my prayers, I think.

[@DadSavesAmerica]

I strongly recommend you watch The Chosen. My wife and I have been and it’s a GREAT way to reconnect with Christ.

[@cindytyree933]

Praying for you. The best decision you will ever make. Peace and joy.

[@MichaelMoriarty-c9q]

Read the Bible and the little insightful book, More Than A Carpenter by Josh and Sean McDowell. It's a great book for Christians, unbelievers who are seeking and those re-connecting with their faith. I prayed for you today!

[@SaskatoonMonsoon]

Welcome back.

[@kirstyiso]

@@DadSavesAmerica @hrvad the Netflix Moses series is good too

[@cher4705]

We do not need religion, we need God.

[@mugs4398]

He believes that we need religion to save the modern world from itself, but he also wants religion to bring itself up to date to fit the modern world that its authors didn't know about. 🤷‍♂️

[@barboglesby2162]

The more you listen to Bret, the more you notice a control issue. In fairness, that can be said of any Liberal or Leftist. The Left are fear based, control freak people, which is why they always run off hysterical at the drop of a hat. Usually with only a thimball of information and before all the facts are in. If they actually surrendered to a higher power, maybe they'd feel more safe and secure and get over the Left's need to feel in control?

[@bbainter7880]

It's the last part that Brett and Heather can't quite see....and it's the part they are most qualified to see, ironically. It's the *fact* that we are not really evolutionarily different than our ancients in any way that is measurable in any significant way. Psychologically, we are no different than our ancestors 2000 or 6000 years ago. We aren't better because we went to school and have a smartphone. We haven't really evolved....we've only invented.

[@bbainter7880]

Brett is also obsessed with ending the cycle of civilizational collapse. I understand the obsession, I suffer from it myself, the only difference being that I have given up on thinking we *can* solve the puzzle. I am still searching about for answers, but with the understanding that fixing our own "3 body problem" is most likely not possible.

[@MrSITH-qj6zp]

It was done before with the King James Bible. Its harder to do in a Democracy.

[@bozeeke]

I think as academics they are typically overthinking things. A non-fundamentalist 'i.e. not taking the bible literally' Christian ethos that's not being forced out of the public square by atheism is what is really needed. Secularism in the modern world is what we should have been striving for, but where we ended up, over-secularization and getting rid of the concept of God altogether is the problem. People are hardwired for having belief systems and if you take away God, weird dangerous things like 'woke' emerge.

[@vitoq3757]

The Weinsteins are incredibly intelligent people but I don’t listen to this and think what wise people they are. Brett thinks religion has to adapt because the world changed, as in, the world changed and now religion doesn’t do the job anymore. I think that’s incorrect. It’s not the the world changed and we abandoned religion; it’s the world changed because we abandoned religion. There is a way back if we admit we were wrong.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

This is correct. The story of the prodigal son comes to mind. The young boy runs away and wastes his inheritance on his hedonism and when he realised how financially, emotionally and spiritually bankrupt he's become, he has a choice to return to his Father or live with the consequences of his choices. This story plays out on the individual level, family, group, regional, society, nation and global contexts. The only way to get progress on the top is to fix things at the individual level, which is exactly the level that the Bible focuses on. Matthew 11:28 - 28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

[@Anne-ku3lj]

Whilst I agree with you and disagree with Brett, I appreciate his attempts to explain his point of view from an agnostic evolutionary biologists point of view 😅 Much love to Heather and Brett

[@vitoq3757]

@@Anne-ku3lj I'm certainly not saying Brett and Heather aren't national treasures. I just find it strange when someone says, "How do you understand the justification for the equal dignity of every human being?" and you, the "expert" say, "I don't know how to answer that question..." Well, that's a big problem. What that says is, as a biologist, there is no justification for the equal dignity of every human being implicit in the natural world. Implicit in that is, if every human being does have equal dignity and worth, then it can't come from any "is" about the world that we can detect scientifically. Ergo, we need something else to establish that fundamental worth for human life. I find myself more and more as I get older seeing scientific materialists and atheists come up against these very basic questions and come up with nothing coherent. Today, I tend to think more like C.S. Lewis and Chesterton did. If a creature has the feeling of thirst, then water must exist. If you take something away that you regard as irrational and there are terrible consequences as a result, the thing wasn't irrational. We have to begin thinking in this vein again if we're going to restore society to sanity.

[@vitoq3757]

@@alisterrebelo9013 Beautifully put.

[@Anne-ku3lj]

@@vitoq3757 ‘I don’t know how to answer that question’ may imply that the equal dignity of every hymn being is not justifiable because in the natural world it is objectively untrue.

[@roobs4245]

"I wish I had belief" translates into "I see the value of religion but do not want to feel hypocritical by adopting the outward practices without also living the inner faith". That's what it is like for me at least.

[@margiedenavarre7919]

I can appreciate your perspective a lot more than that of the host who says that he’s going through all of the teachings, but doesn’t seem to actually believe any of it is true, like it is just beneficial for him in a nostalgic way.

[@roobs4245]

@@margiedenavarre7919 Thank you for your kind comment.

[@dejue]

Well said. I think I am in this boat as well 👍🏿

[@annalynn9325]

well, i’ve been there. i was lucky, the day i decided i was going to go to church as a non-believer, the sermon was about doubt, and its rightful place in the life of faith. that made me feel like i had a right to be there. not as someone who wanted to change others’ minds, but as someone who was willing to have her mind changed. so i kept going back. before too long i developed an intellectual faith, and in time my faith became real.

[@roobs4245]

@@annalynn9325 That sounds quite hopeful, thank you.

[@viktor_vaughn]

I disagree. We have to return to our values and our faith in Christ. There is nothing to modernized. The messege of Jesus is timeless. I belive He is arguing against traditions in the West that had nothing to do with Christianity, that can be objected to without abandoning the core messege of our fundamental values.

[@jrstf]

At least in this short clip, Bret only speaks in general terms, no doubt profound thoughts to those who share his world view but says nothing to those who don't.

[@Belzediel]

@@jrstf I share much of his world view, and, I agree, he displayed limited understanding of how believers think. I don't think what he said was profound, either.

[@Belzediel]

Remind me, if you would, what is Jesus's position on governmental spending on the SETI project?

[@Belzediel]

@@wooloo47 OK, so, how is that different from 'do what you like, it's none of my concern'? And how does such a position help literally anything at all? Should the Government be using tax-payers money to fund SETI? How does your book answer that question?

[@wooloo47]

@@Belzediel Situations are viewed through the duality of good and evil. What is the purpose of the SETI program? To bring glory to God or to deny God? For exploration and understanding or for evidence to disprove His existence? If the intent is to kill God in the hearts and minds of people, then it is evil. The hearts and minds of people must change. They must WANT to do good, not be forced to do good. This is what is meant by the Holy Spirit giving new thoughts and desires. Your argument about this program is irrelevant in the daily lives of billions of people. The murderer, the thief, the adulterer doesn’t think of the SETI program before committing the act.

[@jam4350]

Christianity doesn't need modernizing, Christianity is responsible for our modernity and human progress in the West. Progressives fundamentally misunderstand eternal wisdom.

[@Jake-mv7yo]

Modernity is in spite of Christianity, not because of it. Atheism exists when people live comfortable lives and have better stuff to do than beg their invisible friend for a respite from their misery. Conservatives want to remove social safety nets so more people are miserable and have to turn to religion to cope. We see that places with high standards of living have more atheists and places with low standard of living have very religious people. The whole point of Christianity is to have docile slaves for the ruling class. That's why offing yourself is a mortal sin. There is no escape and you must keep working hard for your boss.

[@cindytyree933]

Agreed. But Bret and Heather have made such growth with their objectivity. Pray for them.

[@jam4350]

@@cindytyree933 i agree on their journey... It just gets to me the hubris of the juxtaposition of acknowledging that eternal wisdom has utility but thinking humans can somehow perfect it or make it better.

[@emultra759]

Ancient Greece and Rome are responsible for modern civilization-once they were rediscovered after more than a thousand years of Christian Dark Ages were finally dispelled by the Renaissance and the Enlightenment.

[@jam4350]

@@emultra759 Then why did they fail? Greek and rome definately.pkayed a role but thats an extremely unintellectual read of History, obviously coming from a bias atheistic worldview.

[@kareneDallas]

The more I read the Bible while praying for God’s guidance, the more meaning I see. In many places in the Bible we’re told that if we seek Him, we will find Him. That was my prayer years ago, and it opened my eyes & my heart to understand the words & meaning. It has given me peace, calm, comfort and depth in my life.

[@skylinefever]

That's interesting. I do wonder why it happens for certain people and not others. I couldn't pull it off and I wasted years trying. Prayers felt like asking the wind not to blow.

[@FAK_CHEKR]

@@skylinefever My experience also. I wasn’t looking for a bolt of lightning. I simply asked “Let me know in my heart that you are real”. Nothing. It seems that most people’s idea of faith or belief is that you will pay a price in eternity if you do not have it and therefore there is something to be afraid of. I concluded that if there is a god he doesn’t really care what I think because it’s just an opinion either way. I don’t live in fear of being punished for my opinion. My attitude is that if there is a god, well then that’s a bonus, not something to fear. I also think most people who go seeking have predetermined that they will find it. People like you and me were maybe seekers who maintained a scepticism.

[@skylinefever]

@@FAK_CHEKR I am always skpetic about every single thing I hear, see, and do. Perhaps it is baked into my personality traits. Well, if I wasn't, I'd lose every cent I ever had to telephone con men.

[@larahamilton2273]

I find myself deeply engaged in a process of reinventing my spiritual path, as Bret Weinstein suggests we need to evolve our faith in a shamanistic way. This journey isn’t easy, and I often feel a mix of wonder and disgust as I navigate my return to beliefs that sometimes feel irrelevant, out of date, or tone-deaf to the modern era. I became a Christian at 15 and experienced a dramatic conversion that involved significant healings and profound shifts within me. However, when I got married and tried to fit into the traditional role of a Christian wife, I struggled. Raised in a liberal, feminist household, that lifestyle didn’t resonate with my upbringing, and I found it increasingly difficult to live that life authentically. This led me to explore other paths, ultimately causing me to leave Christianity for a time. Now, in my early 60s, I’ve returned to my Christian faith, feeling the weight of this journey. The core tenet of the Christian faith-the acceptance of God’s sovereignty in our lives and the humility to submit to that divine guidance-often weighs heavily on me. Looking back at the Book of Genesis, I reflect on the necessity of obedience, yet I find myself questioning if it’s the beliefs that need to change or if it’s I who need to evolve. This internal struggle is significant; I’m not here to lecture anyone but to share my experience as I navigate the complexities of faith, self-discovery, and the quest for relevance in today’s world. It’s a delicate balance, and as I traverse this intricate journey, I hope to find meaningful ways to integrate both the timeless truths of my faith and the pressing questions of our modern existence.

[@sarahjones79]

immorality has real consequences - the law given by the Creator is absolutely still relevant and is needed to steer through this artificial world - good people like Bret and Heather only need to acknowledge Him who gave them the good values that have preserved their lives. They will find peace and comfort and unexpected counsel and wisdom.

[@Belzediel]

Which law?

[@travisabel3343]

Natural law.

[@SineEyed]

@@travisabel3343 right... because naturally, working on Sunday is a cardinal sin..

[@Belzediel]

@@travisabel3343 XD Sure. Whatever you like, then.

[@RandomEncounter-bh8lj]

Horse. Shit. You guys purposefully ignore most of what God commands in the Bible in favor of using a modern, SECULAR understanding of human morality. In fact, much of what God demands in the Bible you wouldn't dare actually do today.

[@windsongshf]

A scientist who is a Christian explains, Science is about the how and the when. The Bible is about the who and the why. 😊

[@majmage]

Meanwhile (a) we have evidence science reliably answers how questions correctly, but (b) we don't have evidence the Bible (or any holy text) correctly answers "why" questions. (After all, clearly there are a bunch of holy texts providing various answers, which cannot all be true, and so we know the overwhelming majority are wrong -- and quite probably all of them.)

[@NeedSomeNuance]

And it’s wrong lmao

[@andreamiller6570]

I love this! I’m going to use that. I teach Bible and Science. That’s a great way of stating it!

[@majmage]

@@andreamiller6570 Why continue to spread misinformation? Like I said before: we don't have evidence religions correctly answer "why" questions, so that doesn't appear to be true. Please don't spread bad ideas.

[@andreamiller6570]

@@majmage misinformation. Interesting word choice. No one is 100 percent sure of anything. Even in the field of science. Scientists will rightly tell you that. Smart people know there is a good amount of faith and conjecture in all scientific fields. No one knows for absolute sure how the universe came into being. They can only describe what happened after it was filled with light and energy. There is no such thing as misinformation when you’re still trying to figure out a mystery. That’s the scientific method. Keep guessing and playing around with ideas until you figure it out.

[@batman5224]

I honestly believe apatheism has been far more destructive. Most people that I know are not hard-lined atheists who think rationally. They are either nominally religious or don’t think about God at all. I would even argue that across time, religious belief has been largely cultural. True believers have always been in the minority. Religion isn’t disappearing; it’s merely losing its cultural influence.

[@mattschrader5047]

You can choose a religion these days or not, but eventually one will be chosen for you. Never forget Marxism in the end is the theology of the atheist. It is not a viable alternative economic/political model as history has proven. Marxism/extreme leftism is a religion and just as dangerous as far right fascism, religious extremism and fundamentalism. The body counts don't lie. As usual the best place to be is somewhere in the middle. When most people are there, that's when we seem to do best

[@sdrc92126]

@@mattschrader5047 Marx was a theologian, not an economist. /communism is the utopia state (heaven on Earth) that is arrived at through the struggle of Socialism and human nature is reprogrammed. Man perfecting himself. And There is no limit to the amount of eggs that must be broken towards the great sacred omelette In secret though, it's all about reasserting a monarchy to be governed over by Plato's Philosopher Kings, the ideal form of government

[@mattschrader5047]

@@sdrc92126 So it's more along the lines of Scientology, a poor man's Dianetics so to speak that caught on with the intellectuals and academics. Makes more sense now

[@sdrc92126]

@@mattschrader5047 🎯Bingo. They are both gnostic religions, so is _Star Trek,_ everything from HG Wells and most SciFI. Gnosticism is a set of related mythical ideologies, largely involving man transforming himself, like through UGX, into gods and taking his place as masters of the universe. _2001_ has been described as the perfect gnostic myth. The majority of storylines coming out of Hollywood are promoting Gnosticism. People are unaware of the ideology.

[@mattschrader5047]

@@sdrc92126 Frigging Post modernist driven French drivel

[@truthseeker2551]

Thanks, John, for this interview and especially this clip. I find it incredible and encouraging that evolutionary biologists have come to realize that trying to boil everything down to cold, hard facts cannot solve the ills of our society. I liked your answer to their question. It wasn't filled with religious jargon or superficial clichés; plus, you were sensitive enough to use language and references that they would understand. Your response was with care and respect, which for me is a good model for opening up dialogue and strengthening relationships.

[@DadSavesAmerica]

What a thoughtful comment. Thank you, my friend. I have nothing but wonder and child-like enthusiasm about my faith, so that last thing I want to do is get on some high horse about it, especially with two people who I love and respect like Bret and Heather! Frankly, I need to work harder to see everyone whose ideas I oppose through the eyes of Christ’s love. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

[@skylinefever]

@@truthseeker2551 I seek people who are willing to listen to such views. If the kind of crowd I was stuck with was here, they would blame the same tropes for the athiests. Things like edgelord teens and so on.

[@truthseeker2551]

@@skylinefever I appreciate your response, but confess that I only understand partly. No obligation, but if you have a moment, could you please explain a little more? Thanks.

[@truthseeker2551]

@@DadSavesAmerica I think that too often we've gotten on our high horses about a lot of different things. IMHO, I don't think that we need "a little dose of humility", but a restoration of that "child-like wonder and enthusiasm". Maybe you're on to something that we've long forgotten about and need to explore more deeply.

[@skylinefever]

@@truthseeker2551 Blaming tropes for atheists you mean? Well, many generic holy men argue that atheists are just edgy teens being who they are.

[@tjacobson63]

Heather, I can see the sincerity and longing in your question. My heart was touched by your honesty, your search for truth is leading you to The Truth. Please keep looking, God reveals Himself through nature and beauty. He loves you.

[@marymorris6897]

Yes. They made a big step at Evergreen, refusing to follow the abuse & lies. Any step towards truth can become a step towards Jesus.

[@skribe]

as an Atheist i recently realized most humans don't have the critical mind and will power not to fall into other dogmas so Atheists should still practice a secular Christianity as the moral structure is still a good starting point.

[@juliannathomas7595]

Very well said, quite reasonable and sane, nondogmatic

[@apokatastasian2831]

I grew up basically openly athiest in a secular christian church, and it's been bodysnatched by post-modernism... that's the trouble with that..if it doesn't have a core...something still leaks into the core of that structure and drunk drives it around... pretty soon everybody has blue hair and is telling your girlfriend to get an abortion

[@jonah9861]

Atheism is for teenagers.

[@acecardinal]

Secular Christianity...if this is the best the west can do, then it's cooked.

[@katerinejonhson4416]

It won’t work. But go head 🤷🏽‍♀️

[@richardcampbell8685]

There has already been work on modernizing our understanding of ancient texts. Eg Jung, Frankl etc etc. you just haven’t been looking. The teachings are still valid in today’s world and hold enormous value because the human HAS NOT CHANGED. The setting has changed we have not. If you look past the words in literally sense to the underlying meaning you find that it still depicts exactly what’s going on today. If you actually read the ancient texts and learned the wisdom in them we wouldn’t keep thinking our selves smarter than God and destroying ourselves.

[@Rocknrolldaddy81-xy8ur]

When someone tells you, “I wish I believed”, I think they want your comfort that you will believe with them. They don’t want to believe alone. I think that’s the power of belief. It takes on a magic when done in groups.

[@francestaylor9156]

Nah. There’s a lot of people that agree on nihilism and they’re not alone but feel alone. It’s more than just having a group that agrees with you.

[@barboglesby2162]

Its not the strength of your faith that matters. What brings results is If you only have faith the size of a mustard seed, but are willing to try to live and act on your faith's values. That's what is more important. Following the guidance of one's faith will usually help a person build a good full filling life, and they will also be a productive good citizen too. They usually share their faith and raise good children for the next generation. It's not the size of one's belief. It's the size of how much they carry out the tenants of one's faith in their lives that matters. We all want to believe. It's working the faith and seeing the results that builds up a solid and strong belief. Faith doesn't come from just belief. Faith comes from working that belief.

[@josephblowseph6123]

Do any of you care about what's actually true? Or do you just care about being happy? If all life is is being happy then i can understand just using faith (in a subconscious well meaning way of course, i do realize religious people mean well.) But if one is actually objective and removed from the emotions of fact finding and sussing out what is most likely or provably true or not, then it's hard especially if you were raised never having god thought put in you in the first place to truly believe it (the vast majority of those of faith are born right into it, and i for one am curious how many of you born into faith would believe it if you had not had your most formative years filled with that through the love of your own mother and family and larger community?) I can admire faith and how those born into it have a sort of force field that doesn't apply to how we suss out anything else, that it gives solace and community. That it helps guide people. But there's this nagging issue of actual objective truth. If one is not born into faith and allowed to grow up and decide for themselves and they ask questions and research things....well, this leads often to simply not being able to just "choose faith." I cannot do that no matter how much i would rather live the comfy social life of someone of the majority culture, of faith. That must be SO COMFY to believe deeply what the mainstream does, and i can see how nice that is and that many people want that so also believe. But i think if you are a naturally searching and challenging these ideas person, and you weren't born into faith, well, you're not going to be able to just believe because as much as you want that social comfort of faith and as much as you're (me) open to somebody explaining to me it's about semantics around god, that i shouldn't believe in god literally but figuratively or some such. I don't know, maybe somebody can help me out? Can we just choose to go to church and hang out with those of faith if we still don't truly believe it but if we believe in belief or something like that? Help a brother out. I think you of faith are likely wrong but all wrong together and people again just want to be happy and feel better........i don't expect you to feel for how that is as someone not in the tribe, but maybe you can have some empathy for how obtuse that must feel to us? But yeah, if somebody can explain to me maybe how they have found community in religious faith while not actually believing it and that that's OK with the others. How does one just choose to believe in something that on every level they see as overwhelmingly not likely to actually be true, even if they would love to be so comfy in that social community faith brings. Is it simply some of us are unlucky to both not be born into faith and then have the personality/brain type that doesn't just go along? I want to be one with my fellow man and woman, get along....but then we're always living in the world of those of faith, on a deep level. And again, it sure seems the only reason faith has such protection and is so obtuse to others is through sheer numbers and time lending it authority out of thin air. And thousands of gods also believed in for a long time by large amounts of people are now not at all believed in, what makes this one god today correct? And by definition then it's also saying the other two major religions today are wrong, each assume to be the one correct one yet that cannot be and billions are by definition wrong. How do we get around this if we weren't born right into god belief and have a mind that simply susses out objective truth that we can know, not assume. How is faith different than assuming? I mean that not to mock those of faith but as a philosophical question. How is faith any different than assuming?

[@tuckerbugeater]

@@francestaylor9156 it's all about fooling yourself to happiness

[@brockbaumgartner8203]

​@@josephblowseph6123I wish I had an answer for you, but unfortunately I don't. Like everyone else I'm trying to learn the truth. I think there are some people who truly question their religion and try to find if it's true or not and some blindly follow for various reasons. I've watched people from various faiths question and discuss their religion both good and bad aspects. Some I've watched and like are Bishop Robert Barron, Jordan Peterson, John Lennox and...I apologize I cannot recall the other scientists names at the moment, who are religious and believe science and religion are compatible. To me it seems that faith is a necessary part for believers and those who don't but truly want to study and possibly believe in God afterwards. I think it starts with a mixture of faith, having an open mind/heart being willing to accept faith if you find it to be true after lots of honest study and prayer. I also think praying is probably necessary even if you think there isn't a God and feel silly doing it. Because I'm not sure if it would be an honest attempt if one didn't try to pray since it is an integral part of religion. Anyways just my two cents. Hopefully someone gives you a much better response that will help you on your journey. And I don't know, I think it can be better for a person to not be born into religion. It could be to your advantage

[@sifridbassoon]

WOW! wonderful video. Love the symbol of the lighthouse especially the part about "you might not be intending to land in that port, but you need the lighthouse to see where you are."

[@mapinoita279]

One thing that led me to the Catholic Church was imagining a world without it.

[@oddfielder]

Yes! That stood out to me too. It’s my first video by this guy and I subscribed. I’m a longtime fan of Bret and Heather.

[@paxvobis6114]

Bret, with all due respect, you lost this argument at the 2:00 minute mark. All one needs to do is to look at the post conciliar (Vatican II) Church; it’s all too modern and collapsing. What is needed is the wisdom of tradition. The Truth of Holy Scripture is timeless; we have lost our way due to the heresy of Modernism.

[@SkywardKing]

I agree that many times adjusting to a modern audience means compromising the messages of God, which are Great in any time period. People must adapt to the word, which is the part that saves the world, not the word being adapted to the modern desires of people. It covers all generations.

[@liasaar2730]

I recently had an interesting discussion with some young people in Europe. They think that, whether w are believers or not, we should fill our churches, if only to experience the sense of strength that comes from being together. There is something special about being part of an ancient liturgical ritual, singing, praying, reciting together. I have the impression that young people today are in great need of this.

[@jamesgornall5731]

Watch a traditional Trinitarian mass, it's quite incredible and beautiful

[@mustang607]

I would say we have lost our way due to the heresy of postmodernism, which pulls humanity closer to Satanism.

[@katerinejonhson4416]

Agree

[@chthulu27]

I had the advantage of being born Catholic, but what i find perhaps uncommon is that the more i learn about science, the more i believe in God. In fact, the more i learn, the more i believe God MUST exist, because to me, nothing makes sense without the uncaused cause of God.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Exactly and precisely correct.

[@terrymeechan2998]

God does not change.He knows the beginning from the end so He understands our current world and we don't KNOW what is next. There cannot be morality and truth without Him.

[@TalosArc-ld8of]

If that's true, you must not believe in free will?

[@eveningprimrose3088]

It isn't going to end well because man has veered off from his original purpose and function. We were made for specific functions, and we are ignoring the operator's manual.

[@Joan-ph2es]

So we are hurtling into chaos because we have abandoned the ancient faith and wisdom. But wait - let's update that ancient wisdom to suit our times. This doesn't make sense to me. Either the ancient wisdom takes priority over us and rescues civilization or it doesn't. Any "updating" attempted in our times w/ our thinking will slay the ancient wisdom. We can't stay in charge, control faith and be rescued. Seems to me we have to submit 100% to be rescued. Or chaos ensues.

[@rosemaryalles6043]

Wonderful conversation. I am a prodigal daughter.... returning to faith. ❤

[@deborahstone2372]

Heather and Brett… I haves loved you both since your earliest podcasts. Thank you for your search for truth. God will meet you where you are ❤

[@windsongshf]

I read about a rabbi who explained to his pupils who wanted to know where God is, and he said God is wherever you let him in. 🙂

[@janetclark5668]

Christ stands at the door and knocks. . . . . . . . God, the hound of heaven.

[@marke.sherman8321]

Where is God?...tell me where God is not?....and learn how to follow.

[@skylinefever]

I could not get God to show up to this so called God shaped hole that everyone is supposed to have.

[@Belzediel]

If i can keep God out, then God isn't God.

[@chrischreative2245]

God doesn’t force himself on anyone. Love is a choice like mankind had in the Garden of Eden. That’s why God put the tree there to give them a choice. Jesus said “behold I stand at the door and knock” You gotta let him in

[@bryanoldenburg9870]

My mom told me (at age 23) that she had turned me over to God when I was born... much like Hannah did Samuel in the Bible. That instantly turned a light bulb on inside of me, explaining why I liked going to church, listening to sermons, and attending confirmation (while my friends scattered to the bathrooms ). So many things have occurred in my life, which can only be explained as supernatural. We can all attest that evil exists in the world, and there must necessarily be a countervailing force... namely, an ultimate good. As society drifts more and more from God, we witness things progressively falling apart... and dark forces filling the vacuum. I've personally found that Christ owns the keys to the kingdom, and that trusting him is the only way out of our dilemmas. Space permits a full argument for Jesus in this brief commentary, but a good place to start is to ask him to show you that he's actually real... and he will do so!

[@williamstravelvan]

The number one (#1) rule of all scientific formulas is that - You cannot create something out of nothing. Something or someone had to strike the match.

[@mattsheppard8230]

who created the match striker?

[@williamstravelvan]

Good question​@@mattsheppard8230

[@StimParavane]

Who would have predicted that debt, promiscuity, abortion and homosexuality would lead to the downfall of society, apart from every spiritual tradition?

[@Theo_Skeptomai]

What does any of that have to do with my rational position of atheism - to suspend any acknowledgment as to the reality of any particular god until sufficient credible evidence is presented?

[@StimParavane]

@@Theo_Skeptomai All the mystics in history are not enough for you? How about you do some spiritual practice until you have an experience or realisation yourself?

[@tomasrocha6139]

Is that why Rome fell within less than a century after Theodosius made Christianity its State Religion?

[@StimParavane]

@@tomasrocha6139 What a shallow question.

[@Theo_Skeptomai]

@StimParavane Did you not read "credible evidence"?

[@amygood8535]

I just came across your video and wanted to express my appreciation for civil conversation that was presented. It appears that it has become more and more difficult to have the debate of ideas without caustic conversations and personal attacks so this was refreshing - thank you.

[@leighduncan]

Bret and Heather - Read the Bible (start anywhere, maybe Ecclesiastes) and invite the God of the Bible to reveal himself to you if he exists. That’s it. From a doctoral candidate in philosophy writing my dissertation on personalism.

[@christinelynch1111]

I followed Brett and Heather through the Covid time and I was excited to see this video pop up. I know how God has worked in my life. One might say we have to pursue Him. On the contrary, as our Indian priest used to remind us: in the Eastern religions we need to find God- in Christianity, God pursues us. I experienced this by living a very secular life through high school and college, and I shut down and submitted, surrendered and He slowly changed me. There was a time that I considered "a women's right" the ultimate freedom. When He showed me His kindness, I felt a heavy veil of fog lifting. Years later I have learned that modernism is as barbaric and ancient with its disposal of babies, handicapped, and elderly. True progressivism is true Christianity.

[@caroljohnson5724]

Love your response to Heather’s question about your religious beliefs. Spot on.

[@DadSavesAmerica]

Thanks, Carol. My faith keeps getting more and more enriched with each passing week.

[@Tricia-yf1ld]

I feel the same, catholic/italian. It is part of me

[@59gaperry]

@@DadSavesAmerica that was an eloquent, beautiful response straight from the heart. Well said.

[@keitharcher5723]

Great clip! Bishop Robert Barron made the same point that equality among humans is empirically false without the premise of human dignity and being made in the image of a Creator. I think you did a great job of making that reality accessible to your audience.

[@sdrc92126]

Hyperdemocracy and the Gnostic Impulse -William Gairdner

[@janetclark5668]

I don't know what it would be like not to have a personal relationship with God. In summary, when I read the Old and New Testaments He is speaks to my soul giving a deeper perspective on life and death and an increase of love in my heart. Since I've been religious all my life sometimes I wonder what it would be like not to have this as part of my being.

[@michaelmoore4061]

“Sometimes a society becomes too stupid to survive.” Mark Steyn

[@brigandboy1425]

The greatest weakness in Christianity isn't Christ, or God, or proving anything at all. The greatest weakness is also it's greatest strength as far as how it operates in the world; symbolism and shortcuts. Talking to a normal Christian (who really honestly believes, and doesn't just play lip service) is like talking to a programmer who only wants to talk about programming in a programming language. They are speaking a language that normal people simply aren't speaking, and the average true believer has no motivation to translate to the heathens. It is *FAR* easier to save yourself, spout the correct passages, and let them backslide to Hell than it is to explain, piece by piece, in modern language, what you believe and why you believe it. This isn't even getting into the fact that the language we learn today has enough falsehoods in it to drown an entire society in twists and turns and lies. Anyone attempting to thread that needle is working against the tide. I think the real conceit here is that people think that Christianity will "save the west." It won't. That isn't it's purpose in the slightest. It would have to be retooled entirely, and the people who really believe just are not interested in trying this out (and why would they be?). The lie from the talking heads (the new Priesthood) is that if you get onboard with Christ, your nation, family, and way of life will be saved. This simply cannot be true if we are talking about the fundamental, traditional Christian faith. It isn't interested in saving any specific nation. It isn't interested in power. Time and again, the people who believe refuse to take Earthly power because they think they already have won the game by having divine understanding and humbleness. Maybe that trumps all the conceit of men, but it certainly won't be "saving" western civilization in the meanwhile.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

I used to be an extremely cerebral atheist half my life, came to intellectually understand the need for God and His existence, and then had three mystical experiences. I'm one of the persons who can have this conversation with you. I can translate for you. What would you like to know about Christianity or faith in general? I'll be giving you the Catholic perspective.

[@janetclark5668]

A basic question is where does faith come from; how do we get it or, how does it get into us? Reading Luke 7: 36--50 might be a starting point. There may be a clue embedded in this woman's story of pain and sorrow in living a life that for her has become wretched. Weeping, she went looking for Jesus with faith that he would heal her; a faith that came from somewhere. The final words of the story are: Your faith has saved you; go in peace. The text contains concepts that are barely mentioned in today's comments on religion: conscience, guilt, regret, mercy, forgiveness, redemption. Maybe individual, personal faith is somehow connected to the pain and sorrow that creeps into our hearts.

[@Readabookfoofoo]

If you cannot see, but you can see someone who CAN see, get behind that person.

[@Baczkowa78]

I will never understand man’s desire for religion out of the need to be moral. one can be moral without religion. One can be ethical without religion.

[@derek4412]

I love being Catholic and I really appreciate your story! I pray that your son remains open to all of the graces of the sacrament of confirmation. Pax Christi.

[@janed811]

Me too! I see again and again the Church being right about everything like her teaching against artificial contraception!

[@DadSavesAmerica]

Thank you!!! Our family is being SUPERCHARGED by our faith in Christ right now like never before. It's the most exciting adventure of my life, actually. My son is going to church in Rome! Lisa and I are being brought closer. It's like I'm re-discovering Catholicism with child-like wonder as an adult.

[@HelenA-fd8vl]

I respect Bret and Heather so much. I was brought up a Catholic but I am reading texts from the Stoics. They make so much sense in my mind.

[@dackhornbold1728]

"I wish I believed" means "I wish i had hope"

[@peterbelanger4094]

Yeah, but pointing that out does not give hope, of which I have none. "Believe"? what is that even? Just accept something with no proof? Just because a book is old? I can't hope without a reason to hope, or something to hope for. It's all so empty and pointless. I guess one has to have it programmed at an early age, i didn't have any religion young, I was left on my own with all that. I've investigated many things in my decades, it's all just silly stories. Nothing concrete to believe in.

[@dackhornbold1728]

@peterbelanger4094 I'm sorry for you and your cynicism. Atheists are always so fanatical about having proof before they believe anything. But, ironically, science cannot prove anything--at best it can make predictions about likelihood, limited of course by the constraints of the hypothesis, experimental design, the sample, any biases held by the researchers, the statistical power to detect a difference, etc. Not to mention that science can only address issues that generate physically observable data. So, if the universe is more complex than the 4 dimensions we can perceive, science cannot address it. But let's say there is a being that exists in the 7th dimension. We'd never know that creature exists unless it intentionally chooses to reveal itself to us in the 4 dimensions we can perceive. Science would have no way to verify anything about that being. If you had witnessed that moment of revelation you'd have nothing to prove it except your testimony alone. So anyone who believed you would have to have faith in you. Yes, faith is just belief without proof and if you look into the philosophy and epistemology you'll see that it's likely that humans can't know anything at all for certain (check it out I'm not lying). So it's all faith...faith in God, faith in science, faith in justice, etc. I was raised a Christian and abandoned it in my teens due to the hypocrisy and avarice of the church. But I came back to God when I understood that the Church doesn't actually represent the Judeo-Christian God very well. And I only came back when I was satisfied that the true God of Christianity is good despite millennia of evil being done in his name and tons of shade being thrown at him. That is my choice, and I made it logically. Initially, I made it selfishly because I had no hope and wanted some. But ironically it's true that if and only if you seek God will you find him. But you will if you let go of your pride in yourself and mankind's vast accomplishments and admit you know nothing and have no power to change what you want changed. You must commit to pursuing a relationship with God like a relationship with any other person. Talk to him daily, talk to him like a dear friend. Of course, it's weird at first. You feel like you're just talking to yourself. But eventually you'll notice your behaviors changing in the ways you've prayed about. Your outlook will change. You will change. Then you may start to believe. Is it just behavior modification via ritualistic feedback coupled with intense desire? Maybe, no one can know that. But, I now have faith that it is more. Give it a shot, or not. All you have to lose is your hopelessness and cynicism.

[@skylinefever]

I sometimes said "I wish I actually got the placebo effect the Godpillers got."

[@snarfmaster2]

Exactly, and those looking to religion are looking for someone else to lead them out of their despair rather than take it upon themselves. This non-critical embrace of wholesale christianity happening right now is crazy.

[@dackhornbold1728]

@snarfmaster2 perhaps people are looking to religion not uncritically, as you think, but after looking around and seeing the wasteland atheism has wrought and rationally deciding to give something else a try. Something that has historically proven successful in providing purpose, hope, building strong moral foundations, and productive society. Just maybe these regieligious dolts aren't as stupid as you atheists like to pretend. But you can't dissociate yourself from your nihilistic religion to even give it a try.

[@timolsen8252]

Religion or faith has a natural problem with progress. With any progress, something is likely left behind. Religion fears losing those ‘somethings’ that are fundamental to their being and for them being ‘true’; true in the sense of having/keeping meaning. I as a Christian, am in an unfortunate, but necessary mode, of dragging my feet and being sceptical about progress.

[@elizabethkurens6247]

I recently started taking a bible study class. It has been two years. I never read the Bible prior to the study class. It is an in depth class. But here is the surprising thing. the Bible is relevant. I can't speak to other texts because I have not read them or studied them. I was very surprised what I learned after reading the Bible. It is relevant. Don't let anyone tell you what it is. Read it for yourself. When I read the Bible I see so many parallels of things that the Bible tells about and what is happening today. That surprises me.

[@michaelfendrich1864]

I love Bret and Heather. They were a major reason I got through Covid sane. However, modernizing religions, in particular Christianity, has been tried (a quick review of the Protestant mainline denominations history) should show what an abysmal failure that was. To gut the doctrine and traditions from Christianity and attempt to save the morality doesn't work because it not only strips the authority from the texts but also eliminates the hope. I would definitely agree that the late modern technological period has made the notion of divine absence more than plausible, but at what cost? This is a great topic and I am grateful for this discussion. This needs to be talked about in the public arena. I might suggest a conversation with Joseph Minich or Carl Trueman about this very topic. But the solution isn't modernizing religion (which often means taking out the parts that don't fit a naturalistic worldview) as we have seen that doesn't work. Great discussion. Thanks for you efforts.

[@duckz134]

Telling religious people to change what they consider to be God's word so as to modernise it is kinda crazy. Plus look what has happened to churches that have "modernised". They've become woke and are now acting against the fundamental tenets of their own faith.

[@nathanforrest3483]

I've never been anchored to any faith. Im just not a dogmatic person but I see how important it is to society.

[@hrossaman]

The best argument for religion/Christianity, for an atheist, is that they are already religious, with the 100+ undefendable faith-based metaphysical axioms that they hold

[@sdrc92126]

I know a couple of high profile atheists and have long held, 35+ years, that they are some of the most religious people that I know.

[@Belzediel]

@hrossaman I'm an atheist. Gimme your best one.

[@Arvak777]

​​@@BelzedielLook at the Emperor from Warhammer 40K he wanted humanity to be an atheist empire, only to be worshiped as a god. Very much like communist regimes like in China where Mao has been worshiped

[@peterbelanger4094]

It's not a car you can sell. I simply just do not believe. What "god"? I'm not feelin it. And that old, incoherent book? seriously, give me a break, that' snot going to convince either. because there is no "convincing". People just believe what they believe, getting them to change that is near impossible. I just simply do not know what people are talking about it when they say the word "god", there is no good definition. And "faith" is nonsense.

[@terraflow__bryanburdo4547]

From a practical and empirical standpoint, the less I rely on belief and faith the better. I don't insist there is no God, only that the God of the Bible is neither necessary nor sufficient for my happiness and appreciation of existence. I am atheist in a way similar to Buddhism or Taoism. In fact I am a hybrid of agnosticism and atheism: "agnatheist" if you will.

[@briandillon8041]

Dark horse people come to Jesus, please😊

[@MassachusettsBeachDreamer]

Joseph Campbell discusses this in his work. He discusses the hero's journey, and that we are all looking for a hero's journey. We are heroes, all of us, looking for something meaningful. One of the reasons I love first three Star Wars movies is that they were iconic, they spoke of archetypes that we each intrinsically feel is true.

[@paryanindoeur]

I've not been very religious since my early teens, and I do think atheism is the core of the issue

[@skylinefever]

Neither have I. I just could not get my mind to believe any of it any more than I could convince it to believe 2+2=3. Religious people can say all they want about just pray harder, but none saw how useless it ever was for me. I was just a miserable fire insurance client for years. Pascal can take his Wager and cram it.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

​@@skylinefeverAre you still an atheist? I used to be a cerebral atheist for half my life before I had mystical experiences (no external substances). But I worked through a lot of intellectual barriers first before that happened.

[@skylinefever]

@@alisterrebelo9013 I have been for years. I argue that mystical experience may happen, I neither count on them to happen, nor do I dismiss the concept that it won't happen.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

@@skylinefever I was more closed off than you. I was convinced they were all hoaxes or substance induced claims. Before I opened myself to the possibility they are real, I had to work through my intellectual hurdles first. If Christianity were absolutely and objectively true, would you want to be convinced of it?

[@skylinefever]

@@alisterrebelo9013 I would like if somehow I could believe the evidence of truth. However, I see every single thing I encounter with skepticism. Unless there is some kind of open mindedness key, I don't really think it is ever going to happen.

[@Jcrpdx]

Bret & Heather might consider an interview Russell Brand, Jordan Peterson or John Lennox.

[@itwsntme]

I'm an atheist, and yet I will concede that this is true. My view of religions has changed over the years. I see now the value they carry, the traditions, the lessons we learned along the way. Its still very much a human construct, and contain many aspects that simply at odds with observable reality; that however does not negate the first part, the wisdom they contain. In my optimistic youth, I firmly believed we could build a functioning society on reason and logic, and that it would be a better one. Now, as an old man I understand that we cannot. That makes me sad.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Friend, you're so close. I'm an atheist who converted. You rightly acknowledge one of your presuppositions was wrong. How confident are you that any of the remaining fundamental presuppositions are still true?

[@lecaprice2572]

Very eloquent and so honest. I found your comment moving. I have come to realize how Western Culture ultimately became mentally unhinged through the domination of the unbalanced theories and attitudes of Descartes and similar philosophers of that period. Ultimately it leads to social atomism, nihilism and cultural suicide.

[@toni4729]

I'm an atheist in my seventies, been one all my life and simply wish that religion would die out. I think now, that Islam is taking over and I sincerely fear this will happen all over the world in the next fifty or sixty years. I'm glad I won't be here but I have great grandchildren that will be.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

@@toni4729 I'm an ex-atheist, was one half my life. Why do your grandchildren have any objective value? In 100 years, no one is going to remember you after your grandkids have turned into dust. So why get upset about Islam or any religion taking over, it's all meaningless right?

[@toni4729]

@@alisterrebelo9013 My grandchildren are babies now. I don't want them taken over by Islam nutters. They have no respect for girls. I won't be here to see the damage done.

[@bdnevins]

Major religions evolved in post agricultural societies. We also need to look at hunter gatherer belief structures.

[@happycampers7889]

“For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭10‬ ‭ESV‬‬ STOP TRYING TO BELIEVE WITH YOUR INTELLECT. You believe with your heart, your spirit, your soul. Then confess with your mouth. This is when belief comes to the intellect, when we confess with our mouth. You can’t use reason and logic. Intellect is what Satan used in the garden to deceive Eve.

[@azurenojito2251]

I appreciate Bret and Heather so much and I know they mean well, with or without faith, but God loves them.

[@lesliezenz6281]

Take a closer look at the Bible, Bret and Heather! You'll find it is solid on it realtionship to our modern era. 100%

[@416dl]

I do love this interpretation of religion as being the distillation of wisdom over a long history yet I have to wonder if some wisdom isn't actually bad, or how do we end up with something like Islam?

[@PeterB_]

His opening monologue commentary just presents his criticism of religion as a fact that leads to the problems of modernity.

[@Belzediel]

He's allowed to do that, you know, right?

[@jayburris6252]

Such a strange reply to Peter’s comment. Where did Peter question Bret being allowed to question?

[@Belzediel]

@@jayburris6252 Because there's only a very small niche of humanity that feels the need to state what they have just observed as having been observed. The implication is that this is a criticism, and as a criticism the only axiomatic points are 'fact' which is irrelevant, and 'just' which only takes you to two places - either the event ought not to have occurred or the event was insufficient. My reply was framed to eliminate the first at a possibility. without addressing the options off the second.

[@jefferytokarsky1930]

Bret is very precise, but says “religion”, not Christianity or Judeo-Christian religions. He knows better and that is part of the problem.

[@PeterB_]

Of course he's allowed to state as much, but doing so creates an entire foundation upon which he can only build a secular solution. He states that there's basically no authority out there that can interpret religious texts, so *obviously* the answer lays elsewhere in his estimation.

[@Andre_Louis_Moreau]

I'm probably as 'atheistic' as these two, but studied tf out of authoritarian thought reform tactics. No need at all to 'modernize' Christianity. Let Christians be Christians do their thing, and we definitely need them to be the majority! The thing that works with Christianity, is our masses holding to a moral authority that supercedes the state or any authoritarianism. Hopefully, ALL our masses giving the middle finger to any state/corperate, authoritarianism. Along with that, all our laws were originally intended to be aligned with old school John Locke basic human rights. Which also happens to be a moral code that holds to a moral authority that supercedes the state. And if there's any moral framework that's antithetical to authoritarian thought reform tactics as outlined in Robert Lifton's 8, it's old school basic human rights. As an example, the 1st amendment to the US constitution includes free speech and freedom of assembly. Contrast that with #1 of Lifton's 8, "information milleu" which includes censorship and control of association. Ignore Bret's claim of "modernizing"... no need to. Even Yuri Besmenov said we could avoid the fate he spoke of simply by believing in God. "Thought reform" isn't so much about controlling thought as it is about rewiring ones moral framework away from that of their traditional culture. Ours is a combination of Christianity and old school basic human rights, colloquially synonymous with God given rights. Nothing complicated about it, or any modernization needed. Only our masses being willing to give authoritarians the middle finger.

[@briandillon8041]

I feel sorry for Brett, and all biologist that are not Christian. As a doctor that is Christian to me none of it makes sense if you were not. Jesus said “I am the way no one comes to the father, but through me“ The problem is it CHURCH is already” modernized “ too much.

[@MR-tn5kv]

🙄 how condescending.

[@glennmitchell9107]

For an atheist, there is no divine or religious world. All the religious texts were written (and later interpreted) by men, and all the churches were built and are being led by men, not gods. It's all a con. Creating gods removes each individual's responsibility for his actions and puts it on a magical supernatural being.

[@DadSavesAmerica]

I get not believing. Fine. But why should the role of humans in interpreting scripture and built the churches be any more invalidating of religion then it is invalidating of everything human? That’s not a very human humanism. Maybe you’re right about God. But it’s also an empirical fact of our time that the decline of faith has not lead to a rise in rational men or personal responsibility. Transcendental religion has simply been replaced by post-modern victimhood cult gobbledegook, pseudoscience, and malevolent narcissism/mental illness… outside of a small percentage of people (rational skeptics and objectivists, basically). So the challenge you face in being a materialist is to look at how humans ACTUALLY behave without romance or wishful thinking and grapple with what works vs. doesn’t work.

[@glennmitchell9107]

@@DadSavesAmerica The role of humans in creating and interpreting scripture isn't more invalidating of religion than of everything human. It's equally invalidating. You can't evade your individual responsibility to think, to discriminate the good from the bad, and to act accordingly.

[@donaldlawson9799]

You and your wife are the example of what marriage should look like from the lefts perspective. Thank you for your truth, it is spreading further than you can ever imagine possible. Never quit!

[@Hertz2laugh]

They don't support the idea of "your truth". They are scientists. They believe in one truth.

[@carlac9177]

I don't think a good marriage is politically left, right, centre, or otherwise. I agree that Bret and Heather appear to have a marriage made in Heaven. And I choose that word on purpose. It's fascinating to watch their journey; it makes me braver making mine.

[@janed811]

Yes!! The equal dignity of every human! Thank you for bringing this up!! ♥️♥️♥️

[@samuelikonallaholokpo9063]

They are worried about the fall of their civilization, not the awakening of the soul or the need there of.

[@sdrc92126]

If civilization falls, can it ever get up again to our present level? We've used up all of the easy energy that got us to this point. Rome could have never developed solar panels or nuclear energy if all that they had to power their civilization was wood.

[@samuelikonallaholokpo9063]

@@sdrc92126 The present level is crap compared to anything. The current civilization marked itself for certain death when it started with slavery and continue in the demeaning of the human person. With all it's library and information technology, it still keeps the blueprint of ascension secret. A shame. We are still confused about sex. family and children. The whole civilization is built on these things I mentioned, these very this the civilization tends to demeaning and ignore.

[@sdrc92126]

@@Shei-vei Pre-Industrial revolution is as far as you can get.

[@wessbess]

I love Brett and Heather! Brett and Heather you guys are such beautiful people. I pray that you would be found by Christ and given the gift of faith. But you guys are loved no matter what! And you’re doing tremendous work!

[@dentman67]

Better late than never. Many on the left are finally seeing whats going on. A decade late, but oh well.

[@JP_21M]

I think it would help Bret and Heather understand the problem and solution if they could see and understand they have always been religious and primarily operating out of faith. If they continue to cling to the fallacy that atheism is not a religion and their own world view is faith based they won't ever get there I fear. Its always strange seeing people who are likely more intelligent than myself being so confused on simple questions of value, meaning and virtue. I don't think they understand they are actually proposing more of the same as the solution forward.

[@johnmessenger7292]

I love Bret and Heather, and as a very religious man I am always flummoxed by intelligent thinking people's inability to embrace religion, it in fact is the only logical conclusion one can make. I say to anyone that does not believe in religion, is that you do not understand it. the first step is to separate religion from the religious. Discover what the texts are saying for yourselves, and what they are saying to you. Remove the dogma, and the preconceived notions you hold and experience them for yourselves with an open mind and an open heart, and with just enough faith to ask "is this true?" Think of it as an experiment, see what happens.

[@JDWDMC]

Which leaves you with a poorly written, poorly edited axiomatic litany. It's nonsense couched in delusion, written by people who had no idea they exist because a star exploded. That's far more amazing to me than the fantasy of a creator who exists outside of the universe they created from whole cloth for nothing more than entertainment.

[@johnmessenger7292]

@@JDWDMC Fascinating

[@sheilal9624]

HEATHER, ask your question of Eric Metaxas.

[@neologian1783]

I'm an atheist. I spent decades wresting myself from the familial and cultural pressures to accept theism. I'm completely convinced that the only answer to the assertion that a god or gods exist is the atheist position: I don't find your claims convincing. And yet.....and yet...... I find Bret's comments here 1,000% convincing. Which is not to say theism is "true".....but what it gave us might be necessary.

[@jonah9861]

Atheism is for teenagers.

[@skylinefever]

@@jonah9861 Sounds like another complaint about edgy teens, autists, and redditors with reddit takes. It is often not as simple as "Teen finds no magical sky fairy."

[@neologian1783]

@@jonah9861 Humorous quip? For certain...or at least I found it funny in a pithy way. Cogent argument? Not in the slightest. One could just as easily respond with: "Perhaps....but if so, then theism is for adolescents." Doesn't inspire any real dialogue though....which is what actually interests me personally.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

​@@neologian1783 What took me out of my Atheism in the end was going the route of Hume and challenging my presuppositions. In the spirit of a friendly dialogue, I'd like to point out to you that, you currently hold presuppositions that are not adequately supported by the standards of evidence you profess to hold, and that right there is the lock. The question is, do you have the intellectual honesty and consistency to go through and examine those unsupported views.

[@neologian1783]

@@alisterrebelo9013 I'd like to think I do! And it wouldn't surprise me to learn I have some blind spots, errors in reasoning, or that I hold some unsupported presuppositions that I'd benefit from examining more closely since I think it's probable that everyone does...and cannot help but doing so. But with respect to the god question, while I might do my best to play along and go down the presuppositionalist rabbit hole....I would say in advance others have already dealt with it much better than I'll be able to. I'd admit to at least one basic presupposition which is that Reality exists. I can't prove it in any strict sense...but then again I don't really feel need to since everyone else already behaves as if they presuppose it too....despite any strict philosophic thought experiments they might play. It's a bit like hard solipsism. While I would admit I can't prove in any strict sense that "other minds" exist I content myself observing everyone behaves as if they do and thus I accept that the difference between an illusion so complete that it can never be dispelled or pierced.....and reality itself......is effectively zero for the on imbedded within the illusion. Thus it is permissible to go on treating the illusion as base reality. (Which is exactly what I see supposed hard solipsists doing whenever they speak to ask "other minds" for their proof of other minds.....so it doesn't trouble me too much.)

[@FAK_CHEKR]

When I heard John Lennon sing “No hell below us. Above, only sky.” I got a chill I will never forget. I was a teenager, a budding atheist, raised Catholic, having rejected religion. That verse represented how the world we live in is up to us. No one is there to help. This can be terrifying and also clarifying. Religion has helped us survive, but may now be a hindrance. If humanity could have this vision that we are alone, but we are in it together, we could make an amazing world. Heaven on earth. Elon Musk is not counting on such a planetary awakening. He wants to branch out so that our species survives the death of our home star. Religious people might see this as blasphemous, seeking to wrest control of our destiny from the hands of God. Lord Of The Flies ends with a naval ship rescuing the boys, who break down sobbing in relief and in shame over what they have become. “Who will rescue the rescuers?”, asks one critic who sees that question as the motive for William Golding to write the story.

[@skylinefever]

This is why I called certain religions placebo effects, daily affirmations, and motivational slogans. Sure, a certain set of people get it. For another set, it is absolutely useless and they can't pretend there is a bit of substance to it.

[@ApostleEpistle]

Both James 4:6 and 1 Peter 5:5 say that God gives His grace to the humble but He opposes the proud and arrogant. Cf. the humble life of Jesus, born in a barn, God becomes man, dies as a criminal though innocent. Consider if we are not commanded to become POTUS or King to get into Heaven, because few can achieve that. Instead we are commanded to be humble, which everybody can do, if they are willing to obey God. Both Mark 10:15 and Luke 18:17 say whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a little child shall not enter at all. Trust like a loving child trusts a loving father, don't outsmart yourself out of Heaven for insisting on being a proud grown up adult, too smart for faith in God the Father.

[@mattmyers2624]

If Bret and Heather start the path of opening up their heart and minds fully, they will come to know that God isn't an external force - God is the force, internal and everywhere. The Santo Daime religion, of which drinks Ayahuasca at the beginning and throughout what they call works - as they can be mentally, emotionally, and physically tiring, where you are actively participating and learning via the signing of the hymns, the hymns which are the teachings and lessons themselves. There are also those who have a connection and are able to channel messages from the divine, if they are aligned to the proper frequencies - whatever those are, with an open mind and heart, whether that is God or other in the divine celestial order - Jesus, St. Michael, etc. You don't need to drink Ayahuasca, always to be done in a ceremonial setting as set and setting is important in part for alignment reasons, nor go to a more formal Santo Daime work as a guest, there are other holistic heart and mind opening practices possible to make it most of the way - however it is a fast track towards healing the body-mind first by clearing the the false lens that the ego most often applies to one's thinking and belief of the world via temporary ego dissolution or ego death, and connecting oneself better to their body and body's sensory systems. The book The Immortality Key, from my understanding but I haven't read the whole thing, describes annual pilgrimages of potentially millions of people annually to go to a Greek city 300 BC - the knowledge of which Jesus knew and shared, to drink "wine" - wine however since then being misappropriated, perhaps by greedy for-profit bad actors seeking to profit off of the demand of "wine" - branding their alcoholic poison as wine instead, as perhaps one of the earliest industrial complexes, perhaps done by authoritarians themselves to then fund politicians into positions of power - who would turn a blind eye to entheogenic wines no longer containing wine but sold as such? The pattern fits.

[@skylinefever]

I often argued for tolerating the existence of drugs. That way masses of people who do not get spiritual experience by going through the rituals could get them.

[@mattmyers2624]

It's why the culture must change through role modelling and volume of exposure. Shine so bright that people will wonder what you're doing, and if everyone is doing it then that is the path the herd will most likely follow. What Bret references in the Bible, say with Exodus, in the past Jesus could say "leave the dead to bury the dead" - because those who were awake and done with the tyranny could simply travel and start fresh. Today, with so-called modern technology, that's not possible as the whole world will quickly become enveloped. I've been slowly trying to build out a solution to create such a path, a protocol, however I've also been combating excruciating-debilitating pain that severely interferes with my executive function and concentration, and the uphill battle recently turned into a steep cliff. Anyway, God, the divine order, keep trying to remind me they are there through numerology, numbers, however I'm ready to go.

[@rosegonella3098]

Well, something similar has been done before. The Council of Nicea comes to mind.

[@architennis]

How can atheism fail the west? You either believe in God or you don't. I don't and never have. I can imagine losing your religion (just like letting go of a belief in Santa Claus-it doesn’t make sense) but I can't imagine how someone who's raised without religion can start believing, as an adult, in this invisible, indescribable, unprovable something-or-other.

[@skylinefever]

I see it as the utilitarianism of it and not the actual truth. I often say that birth rates falling are due to a lack of "Go forth and multiply or burn in hell" sermons and a lack of sheep in those pews. So far there aren't many other ways Americans got higher birth rates in crappy economic times.

[@diannemcmullen8681]

What a great conversation!!

[@Elysiel_cherub]

There isn't that much of a need for modernization. It's more to do with a need for people to begin changing within themselves and to seek to bring balance to how they're living. The esoteric wisdom is very poorly understood, and a proper teacher is needed to teach that to those who are meant to learn. Those who learn it need to be the role models to show everyone else that the teachings work. Humanity has gone astray and those teachings actually have it written under the surface, how to really get back to the light. The problem is that humans have opinions and the penchant for staying in their comfort Zones.

[@damiancayer2003]

I enjoy Brett and Heather and like to watch whatever they post. Brett frequently brings up ‘Chesterton’s Fence’ but I often wonder if he’s read any more of Chesterton. Half of Chesterton’s writings (not that I’ve read them all) are responses to atheists of his time! Including debates with Bernard Shaw and HG Wells etc. Great stuff for those who like a little wit with their wisdom!

[@michaelmcfeely6588]

People create leprechauns, unicorns, gods, demons, jackalopes, Harry Potter and Jedi Knights. People create fiction.

[@jamomeara1894]

Tremendous observation, Einstein

[@chrischreative2245]

God created mankind and the universe. Not the other way around.

[@benmlee]

And also God created people. The entire universe is nothing more than an extensive set of commandments to follow an extensive set of logical order.

[@michaelmcfeely6588]

@@benmlee And may the Force be with you!

[@skylinefever]

I argue that people are going to have a need for legends, and they will get them out of a holy book or a comic book.

[@duckz134]

Modernise Christianity according to what standard? And who will be the arbiter of that? The woke Pope? And for Protestants? Sounds not dissimilar to when Dawkins said he likes the cathedrals and wants to keep them but he thinks it'd be best if no one attended the services.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

One correction- The infallible words by the Pope does not affect the truth of the Catholic Church.

[@MendingWall2]

Sure, the West was so much better under the grip of religious dogmas. The good ol' days that led to...our Founders realizing we needed to shift away from that. If religion was the answer to life's problems, or the truth, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Debate would have ended long ago. It's not, so we muddle through as best we can. Hundreds of millions, probably billions of people lead decent lives without the need of magical thinking. Blaming societal ills on lack of religious belief is simple scapegoating. In a religious age, the current Woke would be the women who led the Salem witch hunt. Same psychology. That kind will always be with us.

[@lucas_e_jones]

You can just as easily say ““if private ownership was a solution economic problems, we wouldn’t have to argue against against socialism”. People disagreeing on an issue tells us nothing about the issue.

[@skylinefever]

I often joke that zoomers are miserable because costs exploded, they wasted years on a toilet paper diploma, and the great job never showed up. Let's blame their misery on not taking Christpills! I might not like Marx either, but I found opiate of the masses takes interesting.

[@hrvad]

Oh, fun fact. Did you know that Eric Weinstein prays? Came out on the Chris Williamson interview with him not long ago.

[@DadSavesAmerica]

That’s a great clip.

[@bcoxal]

Atheism = acknowledging oneself as God

[@reasonablespeculation3893]

Atheism = having no belief the God or Gods exist

[@LilaConder]

Great question Heather.

[@deborahtaylor4798]

It is relevant today. Immorality vs. morality for instance. The scriptures are timeless.

[@bentrider]

I think one thing Bret is overlooking is that civilization has not always been civilized. Even in the most civilized cultures, mankind, at its core, has been a very uncivilized creature. Murders continue. Wars continue. Violence continues. There is no guarantee, nor has there ever been, that religion makes men behave better. As a matter of fact, some of the most notorious and violent human behavior was motivated by religion itself. It would be a great leap forward for mankind if men could simply behave better on their own accord than with the fear of something like not getting to heaven or not going to hell, as motivation. As far as the holy scriptures that he speaks of go, there really is no way of knowing how they came to be. It is most likely that they were simply made up to control people at the time. Nobody really knows who wrote them, after all. If you check with any legitimate schools of religion, you will find that most, if not all, of the written information was nothing more than word of mouth for centuries. It is what religious scholars call "oral tradition". How dependable could that be? So, Brett's goals are to liberate people as much as possible and to keep mankind from going extinct. Those are pretty lofty, if not impossible, goals to reach. First of all, no human being has ever been completely free for the simple reason that no human being was ever consulted before being thrown into this thing called life on earth. For this reason we could be considered slaves or prisoners with the only true freedom coming at death. As far as going extinct goes, who is to say that mankind should be any different from any other species that has lived and gone extinct on this planet? Are our egos so great that we think we should be the only ones who never go extinct? It's interesting to me how the dad is trying to inculcate his son into religion instead of allowing his son and teaching his son to learn how to think for himself. All the dad is doing is teaching his son WHAT to think. That is a big problem in our society. We have failed to teach our children HOW to think and only teach them WHAT to think. But what really interests me is the fact that the dad actually says that his beliefs come by an "accident of birth". My goodness, if you realize that, why do you continue to persevere in it? The Dad could have just as easily been raised in an Islamic environment or a Buddhist environment. He is teaching his son to be dependent on a mysterious idea that there is some divine being that will always take care of him. That seldom ends well. It may make his son feel better but it will not make his son self-reliant. If one thinks about science versus religion, if they actually consider the goals of each, they hopefully, possibly, will come to the conclusion that they are both ways that mankind is trying to figure out this whole thing. Science is nothing more than an educated guess. Religion isn't even that! I don't have great confidence in either one. The dad says that he's going to go for it right or wrong. That just reinforces what I have seen my whole 70 years on this Earth, and that is, people simply believe what they CHOOSE to believe and everyone else be damned. Everything the dad said after that was nothing more than simple assumptions and presumptions about his view of his beliefs. In other words, because he can't find or cannot come up with an alternative explanation, he is simply going to grab one out of thin air, basically. Justification for the equal Dignity of every human being? Well, Brett's answer to that in a nutshell could just as easily have been paraphrased that life is continually changing so we must figure out a way to adapt to those changes by keeping some of the old institutions and figuring out some new institutions. Isn't that exactly what Humanity has done in its entire history? Otherwise, we wouldn't still be here. Does America need saving? Is America the world's last hope? Really? Have you become that indoctrinated into this whole idea? Apparently so. However, it's just like religion, you are suffering from the fact that you were randomly placed in this society. Look around! America is no Savior for the world. America has done atrocious things and continues to do atrocious things. We are hoodwinked if we think that America is this sainted nation that the world needs in order to keep from becoming extinct. Brett, who gave us that obligation? Is that just something you feel? I can think of nothing that has given me personally such an obligation. Of course we want our children to have the best and happiest life possible. However, we are not obligated or responsible for the rest of humanity and what happens. That is something that is totally beyond a single person's capability. The best anyone, including parents, can do is to teach them how to think and to teach them what they can control and what they cannot control. As Will Rogers used to say.. "do the best you can and don't take life too serious". What I see in this conversation is three people who are tormenting themselves believing that they can actually change things that they have no power to change. Why are you people tormenting yourselves? Soon you will be gone from this earth. 100 years from now no one will even remember you. You are making yourselves frustrated and unhappy and doing it all unnecessarily! I have to wonder about your motivation. Do you actually perceive yourselves is that erudite or that elite that you have the answers to such issues as whether or not people are free or whether or not humankind goes extinct? You might want to check your egos.

[@wayneandrews1022]

Much to agree with here. I was shocked that Bret suggested simplistically that Atheism is the downfall of Western society and updated religion is it’s saviour. I have to go back and listen again, I feel like I must have missed something. I was also appalled at Dad for embracing and encouraging the indoctrination of his son. I see this a lot and it just makes me want to weep. I’d like to hear a lot more of what Heather has to say on the subject.

[@bentrider]

@@wayneandrews1022 😀

[@TJ-kk5zf]

All the fundamentalists here are the reason why we're going under

[@Range-Pro_1]

The church has been and needs to remain outside of the norms and whims of the world. Catholicism should stay traditional to preserve its core beliefs, foster unity among its followers, and uphold a sense of identity and continuity in a rapidly changing world. Tradition provides a moral framework and spiritual guidance that can enrich personal faith and community life. Science proves faith, it shows the building blocks as to how God’s creation has been made, they are not in contradiction

[@ekoe5484]

thank you for an excellent inteview. For many of us who are 'revisiting' religion as an answer to the insanity threatening our western civilization today, this disussion I vital.

[@StimParavane]

Buddhism is up to the challenge.

[@truthovertea]

So happy to see the comments noting the error in Bret’s reasoning. “The thing that hath been, it is what shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is nothing new under the sun”Ecclesiastes 1:9. Modernity isn’t beyond the scope of Christianity. It’s just the result of a society that God has allowed to do what they will. We used Christianity until we wanted to go our own way(hedonism) and now we suffer the consequences. Just like ancient Israel did repeatedly. We need Christ because Christ is the Truth.

[@skylinefever]

How many happy believers just get hedonic bonuses from doing God stuff?

[@thatright4985]

Bret and Heather say so many things that are real Catholic. They don't know it, though. I think. As a Catholic, I feel like religion has modernized. A lot. Here we are, no longer sacrificing animals to deities or sacrificing humans to deities. Few are those religions that still believe there's a goddess fertility, especially in light of science. Most nations at least pretend publicly not to want to just conquer and take spoils. We're all studying evolution. The Catholic Church no longer believes suicide is necessarily a sin, with the knowledge of mental health problems. So I'm not sure exactly what the modernizing changes would be.