Broken Anvil Miniatures was a SCAM :(

[@ChilliJez]

If a company launches a 2nd kickstart before fulfilling the first then that is a massive red flag.

[@xxhellspawnedxx]

I think it's important to not be reactionary. One shouldn't generalize on this. Take Wyrmwood, for instance. They've run KS's that overlap for years now, simply because setting up new infrastructure and adapting existing infrastructure for each new thing, which is a requirement as soon as you break into a new kind of product, even if it's in the same domain (in this case, woodworking) takes time. They're also dependent on a lot of external infrastructure to get their raw materials, which is a complication all on its own. Yet, and in spite of external factors they have no control over, they deliver. And just thinking hypothetically about the situation, there are good reasons to run overlapping kickstarters. As soon as you leave your initial niche (STL file production), you'll have very specialised people on staff. 3d artists, for instance, can't really do anything profitable in between kickstarters. I suppose a company could put them to work in order fulfillment in between projects, but A) They're more likely to not want to do that and quit, especially the really good ones you want to keep around, and B) even if they agree to help out fulfillment, they are still paid a significantly higher wage than the staff you'd hire specifically to do fulfillment. Better then, both for the specialists and the company they work for, if they get the next project off the ground. So concurrent kickstarters aren't a surefire sign of a scam. But a reason to be cautious and to do more research into the company, for sure, and perhaps to hold off on speculating thousands of your dollars on a product that isn't even finished yet.

[@horselats]

​@@xxhellspawnedxxstill a massive red flag. Like he said.

[@themonkeyhand]

2nd to fund the 1st, this sounds a lot like how a pyramid scheme works. Take a second round of money to pay off the 1st round of investors.

[@xxhellspawnedxx]

​@@themonkeyhand A pyramid scheme usually is a lot more insidious in how it works. It's common that people are encouraged or even required by the scheme to let the organisation take out loans in their names to pay for the "goods" that each new recruit is expected to sell to pay it back, while the real benefactors of the scheme skims heavily off of it. The description above also describes every company that ever went into the red. Not the best of descriptors.

[@xxhellspawnedxx]

@@horselats I guess we have different views of what constitutes a red flag. In my head, it means "Categorically stay the fuck away from it, imminent and almost assured risk of harm ahead."

[@kausalkraken5951]

As someone who own three businesses with my main being an enrolled agent (I do taxes) and book keeping for small businesses this chain of event is very common. Just because your good at what you do (or market it so you seem like it) does not mean you know how to manage money or run a business. This is why i recommend to get a professional book keeper to make sure your in the black, not the red.

[@PRC533]

I worked in labor regulation for 6 years and the vast majority of small business owners I interacted with should never have owned their own business.

[@HarryBuddhaPalm]

It's "you're", not "your".

[@griffithmorgan4966]

Yup, we caught a lot of flack for our pricing on hard cover books, but we had to look at the ROI. Without the high price to jump start the projects we would be doing something different. Big companies like WOTC can do mass printings in china. Their costs are very limited and ROI is high. Most smaller companies are having to pay set up costs and layout costs and then materials and manufacturing. It all adds up. Too low a price may seem good to you, but it may mean this is the last product the company makes if they even ever delivery anything. Oh yeah, you need an in house pro book keeper, or you need to hire one. Knowing how to make something cool will only get you so far.

[@raphwalker9123]

Anyone who is stupid enough to give money to a unknown company promising you stuff ,are retarded.The guy just took your money and had a blast with it and you are left out of pocket 😅

[@andrewjacksonbr]

My mother is a book keeper and my dad started a business in 1979 that still profits to this day, BECAUSE fiscal responsibility is the difference between a viable business and guys like Chris.

[@GGPiani]

Them using "we forgot paint needs bottles" is probably the funniest asspull excuse I've heard in my life. Like a nat 1 deception roll. Thanks for the coverage, hopefully this incident serves as a wakeup for everyone who treats crowdfunding like a storefront to keep their payroll spinning.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Lol! Right? It was just sooo popular you got caught off guard.

[@Manlio.Cipullo]

@@TheKingofAverage At least Patreon is a better way to found projects because it forces the creator to be proactive and release monthly their work. Kickstarter do not protect the backers in any way, so i will always thrust more Patreon than Kickstarter...

[@Bersilus]

Honestly I don't want to be negative but ppl who I know is called Chris have always been sus. I need to know some decent Chris out there before I lose faith with people who have that name. Namely this Chris and Chris Roberts who have been dodging problems so far by selling virtual space ships, but need road maps for their roadmap

[@WK-47]

I can just imagine it. "Logistically, how will the paint reach the customers?" "Why, it'll magically flow directly from the factory onto their minis, of course."

[@Mikey__R]

It seems odd that the factory making the paint also wouldn't also source and supply the bottles. The bottle filling machine surely needs to match the bottle. I know, because I've tried decanting GW paints into droppers. It's hard.

[@LiliaArmoury]

all the youtubers who've been paid for promotions of broken anvil need to be informed of this

[@Spaniard727]

100% sucks cause among them there are some that are very well valued by the community

[@MiniatureMasterClass]

@@Spaniard727 Why? They are just random people who make videos you like to watch and really really like to make money on ads. Why would you give their opinion anymore value than a cashier at your local grocery store? You don't know them. They are not your friend. Stop listening to shills and you'll improve the quality of your life.

[@unknown70000]

​@@MiniatureMasterClassI value both if they've built up a positive reputation with helpful advice. If you don't value any opinions why are you watching KZbin and commenting on videos?

[@xxhellspawnedxx]

@@unknown70000 To be contrarian, clearly. It's just trolling with a slightly different coat of paint - The aim is to draw attention by creating controversy. Pay it no heed.

[@xxhellspawnedxx]

@@MiniatureMasterClass Calling them shills is downright slander. Many of the big ones are not shills. They will give honest feedback. They may pick and choose what products to review, so as to push what they view as superior to the forefront, but that's not shilling. Shilling is being dishonestly positive vis a vis a product. As for why they should be made aware, it's fairly obvious. Because they have peoples' trust, and most work quite hard to maintain that. If an old endorsement is left on youtube, and leads people to a company that is dysfunctional and just as likely to run away with your money as they are to deliver the products, it's in the content creator's interest to take the video down, maybe even make an update on the developing situation, and so on.

[@jeremytaylor3879]

I backed Rivenstone because several of my former co-workers from Privateer Press had started working there and I wanted to support them. All excellent and talented people with a dedication to bringing great games to life, what an absolute disapointment.

[@BlackKara]

I really loved privateer press stuff back in the day. I want nothing but good things for those guys.

[@mherrj]

@@BlackKara except will pagani. that guy sucks.

[@OPMDK]

As always thank you for collating, presenting, and analyzing all the information for everyone!

[@TheKingofAverage]

My pleasure. Not that I enjoy this type of video, as you can tell I'm not happy about it - but happy to help bring awareness and understanding so we can all be smarter consumers and hopefully see this sort of thing in the future before it gets bad.

[@BaWitda]

An important thing people miss about Reaper: They were founded and are run by accountants. It was originally a side-gig so they could understand how to run a business to better serve their clients, and it eventually became so profitable that they could keep at it. But they always keep an eye on balancing the ledgers. They plan out all of their Kickstarters and make sure that they can actually deliver with the amount of money they're asking for.

[@ppppppqqqppp]

As an accountant I'm gonna be honest, don't use "run by accountants" as a positive, the company is just run well by people who know how to run a business well. Accounting has very little to do with *most* of running a business.

[@BaWitda]

Sure, but in this specific case the issue is not running the numbers on how much you're bringing in vs. how much you're spending, which is the part of the business I would hope accountants would be best at.@@ppppppqqqppp

[@AngelusNielson]

@@ppppppqqqppp And yet Reaper managed it.

[@MCXL1140]

Dark sword miniatures also is run by a former bank guy. I don't know what Jim Ludwig did exactly but he worked for Wells Fargo in some sort of senior vp type position. Having business acumen matters a lot

[@TheRoamingbison]

I was a Patron of their STL miniature subscription for a while and it was no surprise when that segment went under. They were trying to put out way too many models per month. They had cool models and ideas but lacked leadership to reign in the scope creep that killed their profitability.

[@guinnessguinness8027]

Yeah I was in the same boat. Dropped off after the mad scientist set a year or so back.

[@Rawkr57]

Did you actually end up with the STL files? I've been trying to track down some especially the mouse ones, but haven't had luck since this whole thing with them following through...

[@TheRoamingbison]

@@Rawkr57 Yes, I got all the STL files that they released on Patreon added to my MyMiniFactory account. Not all their physical models are available in STL though. I don't think they released any Mousefolk in STL.

[@3Xero3]

This is the same thing that happened with Sodapop Miniatures/Ninja Division. Use the KS funds to pay for anything except for the intended KS and then cast blame to everyone else when the company is suddenly going bankrupt.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Yes exactly. Suddenly it's the fallen merger that's at fault, it's the the backer's fault for backing too much, anything but themselves.

[@andrewamann2821]

I didn't know that SodaPop went under... I know I've not seen anything from them in a while, but I haven't really been looking, either. QRD?

[@GlennMochon]

I came here to mention that exact company. They’ve stolen so much money from so many people and are somehow allowed to still keep trickling out new miniatures to pay their bills.

[@Foxtayle]

I'm glad a got a refund as soon as they started selling other crap to fund the project.

[@JeffYantha]

My thoughts exactly

[@elwindil8566]

Almost backed these, now I'm really glad I didn't. Love how he mentions Reaper being so successful, part of the reason they're successful is they've got SIX projects they've done, five of them fully delivered and the sixth well on the way to being done. Plus they're an already wildly successful, well known company in the miniatures business, and they treat their customers like family, unlike some other miniature companies that I could name. The people running the business and working there are some of the most personable and passionate about their work that I've ever seen, though I haven't met them in person, I've seen their love for the hobby in every video that they post on their channel here. Broken Anvil should've taken a page out of that playbook and done what they needed to do instead of treating the KS projects like some sort of unlimited funding for his "Lifestyles of the Rich and Terminally Stupid" way of living.

[@matthewgagnon9426]

Reaper Minis are where I got my start in the hobby of minis. They're great and I love getting freebies when I buy from their webstore, even if that freebie is just a botched bottle of paint that wasn't quite the right shade. Still useful to have those samples so long as I don''t use them as an integral part of a wider color scheme!

[@kscott2655]

Being founded by two brothers who are also accountants didn't hurt. I love Reaper Miniatures. Their Kickstarters might run late, but I never worry about them.

[@RandomGamer1984]

I was planning on backing the paints, but I seen that riven stone hadn’t been delivered yet, so I was expecting they were robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[@TheKingofAverage]

You called it man

[@Auridus]

I'd like to know where their sculptors end up going. I fell in love with their style before their patreon started and it excited me every month to see what they came up with. I'd love to follow the talent, especially if they're leaving behind the BAM name.

[@Kepora1]

Agreed. I follow their patreon explicitly for the monthly model releases.

[@vee_tinymoose]

As a backer of both paint and Forged, absolutely your passion and reporting helps. Your fury at this helps me feel heard / validated

[@steveisaak4320]

I backed the paint, so does this mean I will be scammed again? I backed Cryptic Cabin's brush set. Still waiting, they are blaming the mail system in the UK. I just want the brushes......

[@vee_tinymoose]

@@steveisaak4320 🙁

[@Gansimus]

Back when PP went the full 3D printed route they did throw some shade their way though

[@therocketboost]

I'm a physical minis pledge backer of the Forged Kickstarter by Broken Anvil and for months I've been concerned. Now I'm just disgusted.

[@EatTheMarxists]

Same. $120 down the drain and nothing to show for it.

[@greglohman6750]

The economics of cheap mini kickstarters are no longer those of 2012...and like there's barely room for reaper bones kickstarters in that lane anymore. No more big box of physical minis KS for me from anyone whos not Reaper or Archon Studio. Every other one i've gone in on has faceplanted in their own unique ways. Blacklist mini jail, Next level extra tiny bois, black hallows bankruptcy, BAM bankrupcy. Jeez me, what happens when you get to fool me four times >.

[@TheKingofAverage]

I thought of Blacklist as well who tried the same thing :( Sucks.

[@ScottWilliamsphotos]

Feels like Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division with Super Dungeon Legends...

[@wckdtrb]

Aww... I'm still sore about that one.

[@OlafMetal]

Thank you for covering this. I've been arguing with Chris and others in the BAM discord about communicating and trying to hold the company accountable.

[@TheKingofAverage]

It seems public speaking like this prompts communication though I worry that communication is 100% spin :/

[@pridak4567]

Had I known this guy has had 100 hundred different "companies" all along with their each individual Kickstarters, and that Rivenstone did not deliver yet, I would've cancelled my pledge for the paints. Normally, I just wait for these paints to hit retail, because most of the time these crowd funded paints take almost a year to get them and it isn't really worth it getting the paints potentially a month ahead of non-backers. These paints were being toted for their quick turnover. That is why I didn't back UltraAcryl for the long wait. Huge Miniatures did a kickstarter for there airbrush paints with a september delivery, and they are actually posting updates and showing the paints in bottles! Thanks for bringing this more into the light, I really hope some more people in the tabletop hobby talk about this, especially the ones that were sponsored by BAM to promote the kickstarter, not that they are responsible for this, but just to get the word out there for the unaware.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Yeah it's a real bait and switch. To using the money to delivery what you promised now instead of taking it to still not deliver what you promised before. $600,000+ raised via campaigns and nothing to show for it except excuses and bannings.

[@somechannel8275]

Well, i expected that..The way the banned people from their Discord for critics, was shifty. And Backerkit was very much in bed with them.

[@gillevistern4078]

Thanks for the update. These videos should 101 for people trying to run a project on KS/GF... Also, if you have time, take a look at the project of Shadow Tactics (the board game) by Antler Games. The game is not out yet, but it's a fine example when probably the most junior member of the company takes on himself delivering the game when the original management gave up and moved on the other jobs...

[@JM32JM32]

Shadow tactics is a crazy journey for an IP game, to be sure.

[@doctorgorgomel]

Kudos for Gergely for keeping that one alive.

[@corycook1904]

Your discussion about "moving on to other projects is spot on for why I stopped buying anything from Modiphius. They are some of the worst offenders on this. A few months ago I received what I guess is the last few books of the Infinity RPG: 5 years after the project ended. SMH

[@davidk6269]

This was essentially a Ponzi scheme-hoping to use funding for subsequent projects in previous projects.

[@patrickbarrett7536]

In fairness to them, I don't think they meant it to go that way initially, just overspendng and bad management made them go that way, it happens far too often in Kickstarters and the like...

[@davidk6269]

@@patrickbarrett7536 That maybe true, but that is cold comfort. "I didn't start out planning to scam you, but ended up scamming you anyways."

[@Octarinewolf]

I'd have said this was like Robotech Tactics (Especially the deception over who was running the project) or Super Dungeon Explore/Ninja Division (More Kickstarters to pay for old and thinking their dream project would do better than the ones that had already funded.) rather than Kingdon Death which is currently delivering the Gambler's Chest.

[@BalkanBiker]

You're not working yourself up enough. I want to see flying miniatures and boardgames when you get angry about this stuff, maybe a few cats and chicken too :-)

[@TheKingofAverage]

LOL! :D

[@SneakyNinjaDog]

"pay rent" might mean office rent and not his own personal rent... but I guess that is just a tiny thing in this big disaster story 🙂

[@DenethorDurrandir]

Ah, raising money for new product in order to pay for old product, classic reverse funnel model. Triangle marketing always works, right until it doesn't.

[@TheKingofAverage]

And eventually it always doesn't.

[@1AngelAlita]

Do something similar with Blacklist Games.. maybe it will open eyes of some backers who still believe Lasting Tales will be delivered.. ;)

[@Mikey__R]

I don't know about US laws, but in the UK, shareholders of a limited company can be paid dividends, which are different to salary payments. Dividends are taken from company profits, and so are taxed at a lower rate than salaries, which are considered a cost before profit. Maybe that's the hair that BAM owners were splitting. Oh, and if they were buying the daily groceries on company money (door dashing etc) then that might also be a part of it. They weren't taking a salary but maybe were getting paid in food.

[@EatTheMarxists]

So I’ve lost $120. Disappointing but not surprising; I thought something seemed fishy the very first delay they announced. Luckily I used a credit card so there might be a way to get Visa to remove the charge, or at least I hope.

[@spike2439]

Angry KoA is best KoA. Always appreciate these videos. Glad I decided not the pull the trigger on this one, I was on the fence for a long time. This is yet another example to sincerely consider not backing anything on KS and wait for the PM or retail. KS gives absolutely no consumer safety post campaign.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Hah! I try to not be the crazy shouting guy too often these days, but taking so much money from so many people and not delivering just makes me feel so upset >:( Thankfully this is *not* the norm for the industry :)

[@JTMC93]

Basically, they pulled a Ninja Division and suffered the same issues. Only Broken Anvil didn't have the products and funds to survive that frak up.

[@timharris9848]

In my experience, “We are unable to comment at this time” is code for “we’ve lawyered up”

[@TheKingofAverage]

Yeah good point, almost always some legal thing.

[@abefactory]

The difference with kingdom death is that the product that you receive is miles above from what was promised. I would back another kingdom death project in a heartbeat.

[@Mittens_Gaming]

I backed a LOT of early kickstarters, only CMON, MCDM and Reaper ever delievered, and those were late, but delievered. Every other kickstarter failed to deliever. Honestly, I learned my lesson years ago, and I kinda find it suprising people back any games on Kickstarters.

[@Kamion991]

It's totally fine to back games on kickstarter, just learn to see the red flags. I have backed approx 6-8 games in 4 years and everything has gone well.

[@KablooeyFineNerdery]

that's odd I;ve backed ghostfire, kobold press and goodman games and they delivered... my bud has supported necrotic gnome and been fine (I JUST supported Necrotic Gnome, and I feel safe) Planet X has a great rep as well... maybe you just don't have spidey-sense. lol

[@HeadCannonPrime]

Agreed. I have almost abandoned KS. Since it began In like 2012 I have lost about $500 on games that never delivered. And almost everything is YEARS later than expected.

[@Kamion991]

@@HeadCannonPrime if you have lost about 500$ to kickstarters, you really should stop and think that were there any red flags during those campaigns. I have backed games since 2016 and every game has been delivered, some with delays, but those were during covid period, which was totally understandable.

[@Dreg_s]

I appreciate that you stated reaching out to them for their comment on this. Usually people making this type of video don't take that step and it's important. Edit: So I guess I should go looking for the stls now that getting the actual product or my money back has effectively dropped to 0?

[@TheKingofAverage]

Yeah STL's might be the only thing you get :/ Supposedly they are close to delivering several of their projects but I don't feel their word means much right now. And sadly still no response to my inquiry. I checked again before uploading and again this morning and just now again. If I hear back I'll definitely let you guys know. Of note, nothing I said in the email is rude or mean or anything. Just said I was making a video covering their update and the DakkaDakka thread and if they had anything to add, clarify or comment on I'd promise to include it in the video. No such luck though :(

[@Dreg_s]

@@TheKingofAverage I read through comments on their KS page and what really pisses me off now is that they replied a while back to someone saying that all the stls existed before the project. I was under the impression the project was to make the stls, use that to build molds and then produce the plastic minis. That is why I was ok with their updates stating delays to the process were pushing back the fabrication and shipping date. But no! It was even easier than that, as soon as the campaign ended they could have dropped ~50% of the budget and immediately sent out a PO to produce the molds. They even say this is literally all they need to do in their campaign description! It even says $50,000 to produce the adventure box molds so assuming the final number of minis was 2x that it does work out to $100,000 or half the budget of the KS... The campaign also says after 45 days after the campaign end they would have started producing which is why they couldn't offer refunds beyond then, because the money would be sent to the manufacturer. Is that why they quote that now, in 45 days they may have some news to report? They have no idea what's going on and are using that same 45 day timeline that was probably quoted by the manufacturer if they even have one at this point? From their updates it sounds like they haven't even started any production yet and BAM has offered 0 counter narrative or actual production updates beyond "things are going slowly". I can only assume they have done literally no work on the project since it funded 9 months ago. Unbelievable.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Exactly, well put. It was always a scam (and why I am fine using such a heavy word) to take the money and apply it to past projects or elsewhere (I feel if they had put it to past projects then they'd have delivered at least those. But nope, nothing anywhere was delivered. They just took the money, spoke about how much "adult money" they had and then spin updates making it seem like everything is progressing while still accepting late pledges.

[@coburkh]

I remember backing their pateon some time ago. Cool stls, was really bummed that they shifted their model the way they did, and therefore left. Was also super interested in Rivenstone, and remember seeing the forged campaign and being intrigued too. I'm sure glad I never got further than that.

[@Grayhammer]

Has anyone requested to get the STLs and calling it a day? I want the minis but at this point I’ll take the STLs at this point.

[@c0rr0s10n]

this sucks. i backed forged. i really wanted those minis. time to call my lawyer i guess.

[@ajguez]

Darn… looks like I’m SOL on my kickstarter with them. Like an “accidental “ pyramid scheme. Good coverage, thanks. I forget about the risk in KS.

[@timothystulken]

It’s super easy when the kickstarters you’re used to backing are things by folks like MCDM, reaper, Brandon Sanderson, or STL file creators with files on hand ready to deliver the second the money is paid. I nearly backed these guys, but backed out and bought myself a printer instead, best accidental save I’ve had in a long while.

[@agrayday7816]

And the Sodapop Ninja Div team are still out there in the market despite not delivering on several projects that made millions.

[@rgbdungeon]

Really hoipe that this is the end of Chris. Many times on the Discord, the was advised this was where his greed was going to get him and look. So in MY OPINION: hope he's ready for the bed he dug. Super sad for the good people that did work under him

[@RealGyouza]

My first job with a U.S company the owner took a paycheck but was "the same size as (mine)" but also wrote his spouse who I never met in a full in office(less than five employees job) a similar check. But he talked about how he mostly took owner withdrawals for tax reasons over a larger check. Not sure really how they differ but this may be a similar type of situation. Splitting hairs on terminology

[@TheKingofAverage]

I imagine it's something like that. He specifically said "paycheck" I imagine for a reason. Mark Zuckerberg only takes $1 as a paycheck but of course he then has many other ways of making tons of money from his business.

[@MyCleverName]

So...a business pays additional percentage of payroll taxes on top of what the employee pays. By taking a draw an owner can avoid paying those taxes and just pay individual income tax. Those "terminology hairs" can amount to many many dollars.

[@RealGyouza]

@@MyCleverName I assumed it was a tax dodge of some sort. Place was super shady in lot of ways. But in other news, I am super glad I convinced myself I had enough skirmish games when Rivenstone was funding.

[@MyCleverName]

@@RealGyouza Its not a tax dodge. The payroll taxes are for entitlement programs for EMPLOYEES. FICA pays for Medicare, SS and whatnots. When an owner takes a draw, they don't get those entitlements. Any good accountant would advise ANY business owner to do the same. The dollars are still taxed as income. Just "Personal Income" instead of payroll, or corporate income.

[@RealGyouza]

@@MyCleverName ok fair enough. I suppose it just felt like they were dodging at the time due to how the owner talked about it and the other things I knew they were doing. As a freshly immigrated young person I was trying to just keep a paycheck when no one else would call me back(right around the 2008 crash). But the owner would often discuss beating the system with his manager. I recall them discussing lying about the managers wages so they could get housing assistance. I got out fairly quickly with a touch of experience and by the time I looked into what I could do they had closed shop. Changed company name and moved to a different state. Which I found they did whenever Amazon caught them abusing their systems.

[@Thomas-kx9op]

Great coverage. Thankfully, I avoided all of their projects.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Glad to hear it! Hopefully most here did. I covered their last 3 product offerings though :(

[@derekgarcia3069]

​@@TheKingofAverageyou and a few others I follow, and I believe did so in good faith. They did have production minis and seemed to be doing well, I suspect they had most fooled.

[@philliplegrand384]

Damn, I went in on the miniatures. Glad I didn't go too deep.

[@TheKingofAverage]

ah sorry dude >.

[@BrianRead-me9ce]

When you talk about how the developer only provides information when they have to because some truth has leaked out, and they only say enough to address what was leaked, it reminded me of a term that is used in infidelity forums to describe the behavior of cheaters to never admit to anything except what the betrayed already knows and confronts them with. It is called "trickle-truth." The truth is constantly adjusted only when they are confronted with new evidence that they can't deny. So, the story keeps changing only slightly while they try to maintain the general lie.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Ah interesting! That's a really good term I think

[@HeadCannonPrime]

This isn't the first time! Anybody remember Soda Pop miniatures and their super popular game Super Dungeon Explore? This is EXACTLY what happened there but even bigger. They sold the 3rd game on Kickstarter and made TONS of money. But they never figure out how to write the game. Then they started the plate spinning kickstarters to keep afloat. I think they ended up just stealing hundreds of thousands and never delivered the product.

[@Foxtayle]

Thankfully I got a refund when I noticed the plate spinning. A lot of people weren't able to get out of that disaster.

[@LostHavenGames]

Reminds me very much of Soda Pop Miniatures and Super Dungeon Explore 2nd Edition.

[@Valandar2]

So... a few months ago, I had an opportunity to apply to be a sculptor for Broken Anvil. Guess now I know why they never even got back to me.

[@Jester497]

Man, I nearly backed the paints but decided against it last minute since UltrAcryl just seemed better. Dodged a bullet right there.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Thank goodness you did!

[@p_serdiuk]

Well, Ultracryl turned out to use toxic pigment in their paints despite advertising that they don't, so it's a moot point unfortunately. Be careful with them, especially those that contain cadmium or chromium.

[@Jester497]

@@p_serdiuk Any source for that? I could not find anything so I don't believe that. Handling toxic materials is extremely strict in Germany and everything has to be labeled accordingly.

[@p_serdiuk]

@@Jester497 Unfortunately nobody actually compiled this information, but you can find the pigments they use and look up their Material Safety Datasheets from third parties and find out yourself what is safe and what is not. The labeling laws are not as strict as they should be and there are lawsuits going around behind the scenes that basically only professionals know of that involve major European paint companies that mislabel their paints.

[@p_serdiuk]

​@@Jester497 That said, I've just checked and there will be an interview eventually of a chemist who works in art restoration with the Ten01 Labs crew, it seems like Ten01 selected very modern formulations of those pigments that are not dangerous, but there's very little information available about them and the interview is still being edited. Still, I wouldn't eat or airbrush some of those colors, it's better to be cautious than sick.

[@JonathanUsmar]

It's totally bizarre that they expected their miniature range to do as well as reaper bones. They don't have the brand rep. The trusted history with d&d. They didn't create a story. They did hardly any marketing. They didn't promise that the range would appear in physical stores, and this was your chance to get them cheap and early. It's sheer unadulterated hubris. They just assumed fomo would kick in. But they never asked themselves what triggers fomo. They assumed they were entitled to fomo.

[@philipstephens9205]

Thank you for covering this. It is always disappointing when a situation like this happens, but important to discuss when it does.

[@stalelygrehoff2881]

i'm amazed at your resolve to not spout profanities at this guy. Seems like hard work.

[@TheKingofAverage]

When I see some obviously purposeful spin and half truths said to keep the people who gave you $600,000+ ignorant it really gets under my skin. To then start banning them and taking away their ability to communicate well? I try not to be the angry shouting guy too often these days, but sometimes it's just so frustrating to see such a bad actor manipulating people.

[@DanielGranquist]

I am one of the suckers, I mean backers that had my money stolen by those crooks. I loved the look of the minis and had great success with Reaper! Hoped BAM was going to do right by me. This makes me sick. Thanks for shining light on these cockroaches.

[@vee_tinymoose]

Did you back just the paint or also Forged? I backed both and I will say that at least I did get the STLs for Forged. I’d backed hybrid, digital and physical, and a bunch of extras including the dragons 🙁

[@hot_pirojok]

I just want my money back, but probably it's not gonna happen 😢

[@Zr0din]

2CGaming has the same issue with all the same symptoms. They are so late on their kickstarter books (and they are juggling like 4-5 projects). There are some that don't even have PDF's to their people yet after 8+ months (they even said in the Kickstarter that most of the writing was done - blame the artists). These communities are small. These people will not be able to partner with other groups (unless they are really good old friends) to hide their presence and still make a living. The rage comes from the Jealousy. I'm jealous these people can make a full-time living income doing their super cool hobby. When they screw it up, like this - it makes me even more angry.

[@terratorment2940]

I've got beef with Dana Howl over this

[@horationoseblower6336]

Egh... KDM definitely strikes me as the same kind of issue but Soda Pop falls in line with the same model of make a campaign to try and cover the last. Why people keep thinking this is a good idea is beyond me.

[@certanmike]

KDM still shipped the models even if they are slow

[@MrBlackhaloStudios]

Thank you for covering this. Looking forward to any new developments. As someone who's been burned by both Forged and Rivenstone, do you have any advice for what can be done about it? I'm a pretty frequent Kickstarter backer, and have been very fortunate to mostly back winners. Lately though, I seem to be on a MASSIVE downswing, and would love to recover anything at all from tanked projects like this. I lost on the Village Attacks expansion. I'm still waiting on Darkest Dungeon and Anastyr, and not expecting much. And now it seems I'm losing my investments with BAM as well. Do backers have any recourse? Has anyone out there gotten even partial refunds?

[@anab0lic]

well that's a shame, Rivenstone looked like a pretty well designed game, that while i didn't back on KS, likely would have bought into at retail.

[@TheKingofAverage]

yeah really unfortunate both for the lost money but also the lost potential.

[@bitzbox]

Sounds like an absolute disaster from their end. Really sad for everyone who's lost money

[@CheddahSlammer]

Didn't get any of it. I remember I was in for Rivenstone, but then on the last day I though " do I really need all this and canceled my pledge. Dodged the bullet, but still fell for these other ones like Rally Man Dirt and I hope Mythic eventually gets all it projects out lol.

[@thebrewgeek]

Same here! Bailed last couple of days on rivenstone but got bit for rallyman dirt and Anastyr. 😢😢

[@michaelmravetz6276]

I got really lucky I kept spamming he should be in jail, and I was refunded.

[@TheKingofAverage]

LOL that's the way to do it :D

[@Hateweek1984]

They're in Seattle...... that EXPLAINS ALOT

[@TheKingofAverage]

Hah!

[@LEF3133]

Kickstarter needs to take some responsibility for situations like this.

[@wombora]

Kickstarter has something for this: They tell everybody Kickstarter is not a shop and you can not expect any reward for the money you give to the projects and they ask everybody to acknowledge this before they pledge

[@em3sis]

I don't think kickstarter is to blame. They only connect creators with investors. People forget that they are playing the role of investor and not consumer.

[@LEF3133]

@@em3sis if the business does go into bankruptcy does all the people who pledged get listed as a debtor?

[@em3sis]

@@LEF3133 of course the term "investor" isnt 100% applicable. I think kick-starting products is a nightmare for the consumer and I cant believe people are doing it. They aren't exactly an "investor" but they aren't a consumer either.

[@Warghoul]

They won’t, and never will.

[@hondo1650]

Sad that there is real scumbags out there trying to scam people that enjoy a fun hobby. But the world isn't all a bunch of roses.

[@dustiiyork3907]

This is my first Kickstarter that I've back where the company is going under. I guess that's the name of the game unfortunately.

[@aslbaron1]

Thanks for the video! I think you are spot on. We will not see any real product from them.

[@thewanderingedd5211]

Limewire... there's a name I haven't heard in a long time...

[@TheKingofAverage]

HAH! I almost said Kazaa :P

[@lousaynus9517]

Well, shit... I backed Forged. Was thinking about the paint, glad I didn't. It's almost funny, I was still giving them the benefit of the doubt after the last update where he laid out all their woes, but I was starting to get worried we'd been hosed. And then I happened to see your video today. I'll go get a towel. Thanks for laying it all out, keep fighting the good fight.

[@Hedgehobbit]

If you are a business owner, you can take money out of the business via a distribution. The restrictions are that you must divide the distribution amongst all the owners in proportion to what percentage of the business' they own. The reason you'd want to do this is that distributions are taxed much less than regular income. The caveat is that you if you are involved in the day to day running of the business, you must pay yourself a salary. If you don't and you just take distributions then that is tax fraud. And I ran a business without taking any money out (and, in fact, I put money in) for four years. Luckily my wife worked but it was a serious struggle.

[@TheKingofAverage]

Another patron of mind mentioned this same thing. Perhaps that's the case. I know many take like $1 salaries and then do stocks and such as well. It's sad but with all the spin Chris posts when I read him specifically saying "paycheck" I can't help but think he's splitting hairs to make it seem like something else. :( Glad to hear you were a dedicated owner btw! The world needs more like that I feel :)

[@familymeeple]

Thank you for the researching and sharing. I confess i nearly backed this one - glad i did not now, for sure! Hope those that did manage to get some recompense but it's unlikely at this stage 😢

[@charlesfe]

Wow, I almost backed Rivenstone, mostly because of paid for sponsors from other content creators. I was a Patreon of their STL project from the beginning, but I cancelled when Chris said on a podcast something about how the STL space was going to collapse and physical miniatures and a few STL creators would be left. Apt company name at least, Broken Anvil. If any of the digital sculptors are off running a Patreon please drop the link. Their work was phenomenal, would love to support those sculptors.

[@charlesfe]

Also a weird conspiracy theory in my head: I remember seeing in a video that the BAM painters had a full set of Golden So Flat at their desks. I had been using those paints for a while thanks to a Dick Blick sale and I knew they were fantastic value for miniature painting, I just wish those paints were bottled in droppers. Wonder if there is any chance that BAM Studio paint was repackaged Golden So Flat. The So Flat range seems to cover a number of the colors they had on offer in the BAM KS - they are the typical artist colors you find with professional acrylics - with some in-between shades that could have been created through mixing. Anyway, probably wrong on this but wouldn't surprise me if this was the case. (The missing ingredient... bottles?)

[@allgravygames]

Hey! I was the head studio painter brought in a year ago - I had the other painters stop using soflat. (They still used it for statue work) The paints were mixed from various paint lines to provide pigment for spectral analysis at the factory level, with the factory providing the requested consistency.@@charlesfe

[@PrintHammer]

Kickstarter has become such a Wild West. The default community will blame a person for backing a Kickstarter because 'you knew what you were getting'. But these companies drop 70% of the budget on presentation of the Kickstarter and the rest into production of the products and it's almost become the norm. ThatEvilOne drops a kickstarter for minis every few months and they are repurposed and lacking detail but stuff falls under 'you knew what you were getting'. But a million in revenue from reskinned sculpts they can't bother to sculpt with fitted grooves as opposed to flat surfaces or pay someone to provide presupports that are capable of printing without failure on every single model. This situation is definitely crazier though just outright lying then backpedaling so hard.

[@michaelmravetz6276]

The not sharing is probably bankruptcy proceedings

[@TheKingofAverage]

That's my figure as well.

[@Zeran_Rey]

Thank you for this update. Hopefully you and the many others speaking out will have some impact.

[@jasonrhome710]

Man, such a bummer. I dug what they were portraying themselves as in the beginning, especially as I think they were the first to dive into those Sciocast machines. And the figures were legitimately cool looking. And Rivenstone sounded fun.

[@Scott_A]

Kickstarter need to do something about this before everyone looses any more faith in what they allow to happen. If people can get away with blatantly setting up several fraudulent start ups, then maybe kickstarter need to be investigated too

[@ernie3249]

Kickstarter's answer to this, after losing several international lawsuits , is to put up a disclaimer you must agree to before completing every pledge, that you are not promised ANYTHING, you are investing in a potential delivery.

[@jheu781]

I'm upset too. I bought in at the forged level. I lose $120 and just learn to back companies with good reputations.

[@TheKingofAverage]

A hard lesson - sorry man :(

[@thomasshaw61]

Ihadsentseveralhundredsofdollarsto acoupleof kickstartersandI nevergot anything in return,ILEARNED MY LESSON-NEVERAGAIN!

[@MechanicalFrog]

Thanks for doing this video.

[@DaR-Cee]

I feel like I dodged a bullet not backing the last kickstarter

[@Milchmaster]

I backed the paints and received them a month ago. I don't want to say it was all ok what they did (it definetly wasnt), but i have to say they delivered even when very many people said they wouldn't. It would be fair to give them credit for that.

[@slow_runner]

UPDATE: the Paints have mostly shipped to US backers now and soon after international orders will be shipped as well.

[@alexabadajos7461]

Hey thanks for the coverage on this I was looking for someone to talk about this and i felt like I was going insane because it's such a huge deal. Love the passion and break down keep up the good work

[@TheKingofAverage]

Thank you! Happy to at least help spread the word.

[@tobyr21]

what merger? what company was likely to be willing to pick up all their debts? don’t be silly. -Toby

[@chrisrinderknecht3753]

Thank you for opening my eyes to this. I'm a backer or Rivenstone. I'm not happy.

[@sidneyleejohnson]

Can you look into the KS campaign for Madeira collectors edition please. 4k backers need help.

[@TheKingofAverage]

I will look, thank you for letting me know!

[@steamsorcery9573]

Agreed. It’s been a nightmare with a ton of excuses & questionable delays due years as well as the company “spokesperson” changing so many times throughout

[@Hateweek1984]

Is there no laws or recourse against these businesses? THIS is why I don't do kickstarter...or crowdfunding BS....

[@Foxtayle]

Sounds exactly like Ninja Division's Soda Pop Miniatures Super Dungeon Explore: Legends kickstarter. I'm so glad I got refund from that disaster. Vowed never to buy anything from them what like 8 years ago. As far as I can tell they never fulfilled the project. The last update was in 2021 for a 2015 project!! All they did was try to sell you individual miniatures so that they could use that money to fund the project.

[@MarkWidner]

Thank you! I almost picked up RivenStone after adepticon 2022. Picked up GodTear and painting and playing a real game. Shame because RD models are excellent.

[@Rawkr57]

Does anyone know if its still possible to obtain the STLs? Ive been trying to track down some especially the mouse ones. Thank you all!

[@Br0therjames55]

I was very close to backing Rivenstone. Models looked very unique. Super disappointing.

[@zippy5131]

Not just board games, but white metal miniatures to or the suppliers ie. A company in the UK called 'The Little Corporal' two years now I have been waiting for an order. I have emailed them and went to a show where they where supposed to be............ even the over stall holders didn't know who, or where they were . All I got was an email saying my order was being processed... that was at the start of this year.. Herm????? But companies saying were making paint and not ordering bottles as someone mentioned below.. What the Foxtrot! And sad to say it will only get worse as the world gets greedy and more (Got to be polite here) Arseholes get involved in board games, of a dark sided ideal. Thank the God's for people like 'The King of Average' Lets keep our comunity clean and report all shit publicaly, so we all can keep our hard earned, invested in stuff that will arrive. Or we buy from our local games SHOP!. Support your local everyone.

[@Crosis101]

Great video. Tired of seeing folks get burned in this business. You name dropped a Mythic company, and I feel like Rainbow 6 Boardgame is worth a look into…that is a drama lama that keeps on giving.

[@BEdmonson85]

Their monthly patreon was way too expansive for what they were charging too. When they opened the patreon, they had two "early-bird" levels that you could subscribe to that they kept open for something like 2-3 months iirc that were heavily discounted (instead of limiting it to number of subs). I paid $6/month and their max tier was $9. There's no way you can pay a whole staff of sculptors and concept artists plus painters for their social media stuff with $9 a month from a few hundred people and I even told Chris Pixel this in a DM on their discord.

[@midamida2659]

Seeing this, I would like to know whats going on with stormsunder

[@karaso0]

One of my most anticipated games, ended up pulling my pledge last year because I was starting to get bad vibes. They have their team working on several projects and still have 2 HUGE campaigns in stormsunder and wild assent levant raising.

[@jonatan2969]

To be fair they are delivering on their ravaged star campaigns which were simpler and can keep them afloat until they deliver :)

[@midamida2659]

@@jonatan2969 I though they leased out their artist and sculptors to miniwargaming. They didnt do the production themselves

[@midamida2659]

@@karaso0 I wish I was as wise as you my good sir

[@TheKingofAverage]

Not a whole lot dude or it'd be delivered already. Stormsunder is now a "cost" to the company and there isn't much incentive to work on that. Archon did the same thing back in the day with Chronicle X. It sucks :( Or do we really believe there's a team of full time people putting 40 hours a week into it and it's still not done after that for years? :D

[@Willni7]

So glad I backed Rivenstone.... this was the first Kickstarter I've ever backed. Ngl the project update he sent out, saying that he fired his entire staff and he's the only one fulfilling orders was a pretty big kick in the pants.

[@vee_tinymoose]

I’m extremely grateful to someone who is in a discord I’m in, where I’d asked if anyone else was worried about their pledges. I had pledged for Forged and for the paints. The person who reached out to me shared how they and someone else had been able to get their pledge cancelled and refunded. I was able to get my pledges refunded for both, but not the Backerkit extra pledge money 🙁 Edit: have watched now and those questions are wait for me booted and refunded too

[@jtwernbold]

"Your pledge has been refunded." I posted a comment yesterday with resources for concerned backers to file a complaint with the Washington Office of the Attorney General, and later that night I received an email from Kickstarter informing me that my pledge has been refunded. I noticed that Chris hasn't issued refunds to all the other comments asking for one; instead, he's apparently just refunding the "squeakiest wheels" like me. The cynic in me suspects it's more about Chris having the ability to remove comments encouraging others to take action, like a corporation using union-busting tactics against employees trying to organize their fellow coworkers into standing up for themselves.

[@vee_tinymoose]

@@jtwernbold yup. I got that when I asked questions. And I haven’t had the backer kit part refunded, possibly because it doesn’t seem as public?

[@ZombieApocalypse09]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/j3qtlGWPqbKob9ksi=zcG21PQVozKr4pA7&t=413 I don't think that former employee was referring to the change in direction from STLs to physical minis. I think they were referring to the change in direction for the Patreon. It went from being monthly STLs to a monthly charge to get one physical mini at a certain high pledge tier and at lower tiers you just get a painting tutorial video for that single mini. Also due to a billing glitch where they billed all the patreons for a month in which we got nothing, they decided to give EVERYONE who was backing the patreon at that time ALL the STLs from the entire run of the patreon rather than refund the charge. Which meant people who had been backing the whole time got nothing and indeed got NEGATIVE something because that meant all the previous STLs they paid for were now granted for free to people who hadn't paid for them. They suckered me in with the Dungeon Delvers campaign and the Patreon. Then having Privateer Press people. really disappointing. The Discord is unlocked again. But meaningful questions are basically ignored in order to keep giving strawmen defenses about "not being a scammer."

[@LuiBei1994]

Stormsunder comes to mind. Only company to take hundreds of my money and still keep talking rules and not production for TWO YEARS

[@Robithero]

So what is the deal with the Level52 side? They are still accepting pre-orders, haven't delivered anything that I can tell, and have at least a few outside custom clients that they are just stringing along. This is crazy. Silent and Bob statue, Cornelius statue, the Moko statue. I need to know what they have actually delivered!