Bronze Age Mindset, and a new counter-culture

[@luukzwart115]

The essential distinction you explained between BAP and Rand made me think of this quote from her talk 'Apollo and Dionysus': ‘’It is man's irrational emotions that bring him down to the mud. It is man's reason that leads him to the stars.’’

[@TeaParty1776]

Modern culture is sinking into the mud. Soon the stars will be invisible.

[@eduardorpg64]

I was going to just watch a little bit of the video today, and watch the rest later, but I ended up watching the whole thing today! I don't know how, but you always manage to make everything sound interesting and exciting, Nikos! I couldn't stop watching this! I enjoyed this more than playing videogames! Yaron Brook taught you well. Your public speaking skills are amazing! Good job!

[@nikos_1717]

Many thanks for the kind words! Indeed, he's my teacher (literally) in public speaking.

[@bryanutility9609]

@@nikos_1717you stopped just short of saying what you would actually do tho right at that end… a part 2 in context to BAM would be interesting.

[@BenjaminHare]

Excellent lecture. You covered a lot of conceptual material for such a brief talk.

[@nikos_1717]

Thank you. Indeed, difficult to present a whole book and the context around it in 25'. Missed some important stuff, but what can one do.

[@luukzwart115]

I haven't read the book myself but it seemed like your talk struck a great balance between being concise about and explaining the essentials of BAP's philosophy. I like it when lectures aren't unnecessary tedious.

[@nikos_1717]

Thank you, that was the goal.

[@TeaParty1776]

BAP is one of the many products of the unfocused mind of modern culture. So is "transexuality." Ironic!

[@heressomestuffifound]

15:30 This part makes much more sense. See also Roger Scruton’s essay on Beauty and Nietzsche’s ideas as a whole of course.

[@NoaHerngren]

When I think of BAPs ideal man I think of Yujiro Hanma in Baki: a physical hulk obsessed with domination

[@nikos_1717]

I think of Colonel Kurtz. An exceptional man, who, in his despair on the ugliness around him gives up morality as such and destroys himself and others.

[@mnky47]

I'm so manly I see everyone else as a woman

[@bryanutility9609]

I see me doing whatever I want that I can get away with & building the best life I can but always needing to do better! Being totally self directed = taking responsibility. I’m also blessed with noble genetics & my children are beautiful as gods. Gotta dial back some of my more reckless impulses tho, not trying to die young like Achilles before my kids are of fighting age 😅⚔️🏴‍☠️🔥

[@TeaParty1776]

BAP-man on a toilet

[@Liphted]

Nemesis is here and nothing anyone can say will make that untrue.

[@max-nh9qd]

"BAP" isnt conventional. The mainstream upholds the religion of human rights and equality of man. They are not relativists or perspectivist they uphold these moral and religious beliefs as sacrosanct. “After Buddha was dead, they still showed his shadow in a cave for centuries - a tremendous, gruesome shadow. God is dead; but given the way people are, there may still for millennia be caves in which they show his shadow. - And we - we must still defeat his shadow as well!”

[@nikos_1717]

Of course BAP isn't conventional culturally. I said though he's conventional in the epistemological and metaphysical chaos we've been around for centuries and which he doesn't challenge. Otherwise, nice Nietzsche quote!

[@Andres-jw1sn]

The minute one abandons reason; reality starts to hurt.

[@nikos_1717]

And the world gets very scary.

[@radiozelaza]

wow, just as I was pondering starting a podcast called "Baltic Beats" hosted by a certain Mesolithic Deviant...

[@AlecFortescue]

Kelthuz, co ty tu robisz?

[@SolarManReborn]

Kelthuz - wichry inspiracji i ciekawość wiodą nas tymi samymi ścieżkami. Śledzę Twoje rzeczy od dziecka, od samego początku. Jesteś, trwasz, nie zawsze się z Tobą zgadzam, czasami mnie bulwersujesz. Ale mnóstwo ciekawych rzeczy załapałem od Ciebie. Jesteś wielkim umysłem i artystycznym duchem.

[@radiozelaza]

@@AlecFortescue słucham Nikosa

[@radiozelaza]

@@SolarManReborn Saluthe!

[@eduardorpg64]

BAP sounds like Nietzche on LSD. By the time you said that BAP wanted us to go back to the Bronze Age, I knew in that moment I could not take BAP seriously... As you mentioned, the whole "things were better in the past" idea is quite popular and overused. Heck, there are people who wish we could go back to the Middle Ages. But the Bronze Age? Really?

[@tiborkeser74]

Tell me you don't get it without telling me you don't get it

[@andredubois4601]

Yes

[@luukzwart115]

@@tiborkeser74 What do you mean? Can you explain?

[@tiborkeser74]

@@luukzwart115 BAP doesn't want to return to the bronze age, he talks about male assertion in the modern world and ordering our lives with values from ancient Greece and the bronze age. Giving a new life affirming set of values centered around beauty, hardship, discipline and a whole host of other things. He is by no means a "let’s return to the 50s" cuckservative.

[@jonhstonk7998]

He means you don’t get it. The Bronze Age was for better or worse a time of greatness in the eyes of BAP and in the eyes of many men nowadays(I agree to an extent as well) while the modern world created nothing of any worth whatsoever, it’s sterile and disgusting, as evil as it gets.

[@YeWitchfinderNielsen]

Next: Xenophon, Anacharsis, and The Pre-Eleatics.

[@nobodysfool2232]

Love the way he says bugman

[@LeonardoGarcia-qt6lf]

Kinda says "bagman"

[@AlecFortescue]

Greek accent is adorable.

[@ISee-xe5ow]

Great video , I hope there’s more to follow!

[@raadkildani7140]

Again, another great piece of content. Thank you.

[@nikos_1717]

Thank you, appreciated.

[@matttiberius1900]

9:49 this is a perfect summary of the public school system.

[@paryanindoeur]

I want to reveal where BAP got some of his ideas, but I won't. The first person to write a book gets the credit, I guess.

[@lmf9308]

Hi Nikos. I am an Objectivist, and also someone who has spent lots of time reading BAP (his book and his Twitter poasts). I thought your summary of his views, and the problem with his views, was excellent. You focused on the right things. Three things I really like about BAP: 1. He's really funny: he brutally makes fun of religionists and leftists, for reasons which are usually the right reasons. 2. (You covered this one in your lecture:) Like Rand, he emphasizes how there are so many more ways to live life than just the depressed, subservient, unambitious, grey nothingness of the average bugman---the life of the longhouse. I absolutely loved the Alcibiades passage, because I thought it concretized the extent to which people are capable of doing great and unusual things (in hindsight I think your interpretation of the passage was more accurate; BAP is a total genetic determinist and so he probably thinks most people are incapable of choosing to be like Alcibiades). 3. BAP has the beauty-worshiping aesthetic sense of an Ancient Greek, which---though I have many problems with his standard of beauty---seems to be better than almost anyone else out there who posts art. I have discovered lots of art that I like from his Twitter. P.S. Speaking of art, what is the sculpture in the background of your lecture?

[@nikos_1717]

Thank you frend, and yes, you have spotted well the attributes of BAP that make him appealing to people with some fire in them who know life can be more (cause there are also other things that make him appealing to a disgusting lot). As for the sculpture, I think it is the "Fallen Icarus" statue from the Valley of the Temples in Agrigento, Sicily

[@duncancurry4]

excellent insight

[@nikos_1717]

Thank you!

[@bankiey]

Thoughts on "the axial age"?

[@tuckerbugeater]

They had axles

[@jonlittle5032]

Fascinating scholarly rationalization of the philosophy of the underlying drivers and motivations of the current social conflagration. I love the comparison to the similar social driver of the mid '50s.

[@jonlittle5032]

It's a pity his laughing students appear to think this is something to laugh and ridicule

[@tylerm1320]

Great job Nikos. 🎉

[@nikos_1717]

Thank you!

[@aboutnothing6482]

Very simplisitic to say BAP is conventional and looks at the past (especially if the other examples you give are of the retvrn variety), last few points are a bit of framing him. He looks at the future but uses the virtues, strength, and uncorrupted vitality of specific part of the past he believes modernity has diluted and wishes to see reinvigorated. He does not want to return to the Bronze Age and it's not a call to return in this sense.

[@nikos_1717]

Of course he doesn't call for a return to the Bronze Age. I clarified he's for a return to the spirit of that age. That's a spirit though that it's mostly his romantic invention. How about the crusaders of the Industrial Revolution, who didn't rule men, but ruled nature, by reshaping and conquering it? There is no great future that doesn't celebrate productiveness, the mind, and human agency.

[@aboutnothing6482]

​@@nikos_1717 Your crusaders of the Industrial Revolution are romantic invention as well if you think they did not rule men. It is about which spirit the future will take, which if I read your comment here, is also your worry but you disagree with BAP on the type of spirit the future should take. So saying he looks at past, just like those trad larpers, and is therefore a conventional thinker, is kinda cheap.

[@adherentofladycolumbia725]

The prevalence of the emotion and reason dichotomy is one of the deepest, and most invalid binary. This is not to say their can be confusion between the two, but they are not entities that can not be appropriately integrated. Especially with the new right, which is starting to hit some barriers with other elements of the right, emotionalism is the core. I understand the loss of certain values which put me into the right during 2016-2020, but other elements have raised my concern more & more. I am far removed from believing this is the end of the world, as content creators need to hype up every aspect, but also the irony that pours out of so many. Its is a unserious age, looking for an excuse to be violent.

[@Arbognire]

…& the crux of it all is the nihilism derived from its purposelessness, which is the prevailing reason why it has an unserious character directing it toward an aggressive violence.

[@nikos_1717]

So it turns out the dichotomy might not be invalid after all...

[@adherentofladycolumbia725]

@@nikos_1717 between reason and emotion, or have i missed something? I remember Rand saying that emotions are lightning fast calculations of value judgements. That they act as immediate barometers, but are not tools of cognition. They can be the first thing one notices in a response to a entity, but it is reason that properly informs one on the nature of what is being responded too. When that happens, reason, with commitment to understanding, can alter the emotional response to a subject. Please do tell me if this is not the appropriate, or only partial view objectivism has on the proper integration of emotions.

[@nikos_1717]

@@adherentofladycolumbia725 Yep, you got it right. We are in agreement. So where I'm getting at: there needs to be a proper integration of reason and emotion. BAP rejects reason, though I think he's better than that, as he's clearly a well-read man and at least in his podcasts he makes some coherent points.

[@newweaponsdc]

Bronze Age Mindset is a fantastic book, definitely worth a read.

[@JDKDKDLDKDKDKDKKKDERYY]

Only people with a heaby accent should cover BAP Nice lecture

[@Thekeninger]

This is really /pol manifesto xD. What differentiates 'the bugman' and the 'Great man'? Both live by instincts, both live in fear of death, and both are enslaved by the ego. Fundamentally, there is no difference. The only thing that differentiates these two is the amount of power they possess. They need each other. The 'Great man,' the one who is lucky, uses other bugmen to try to fulfill his desires by conquering, pillaging, and raping, but desires can never be fulfilled. The bugmen thinks that following the 'Great man' will fulfill thiers life by living in someone else's story. Then another 'Great man' appears, and the cycle is repeated. And that's how it's been on Earth for hundreds of thousands of years. Doesn't that seem familiar? This is literally samsara.

[@nikos_1717]

The Great Man definitely doesn't need victims. As the greatest portrayal of a Great Man in literature put it: “The creator’s concern is the conquest of nature. The parasite’s concern is the conquest of men. The creator lives for his work. He needs no other men. His primary goal is within himself. The parasite lives second-hand. He needs others. Others become his prime motive. The basic need of the creator is independence. The reasoning mind cannot work under any form of compulsion. It cannot be curbed, sacrificed or subordinated to any consideration whatsoever. It demands total independence in function and in motive. To a creator, all relations with men are secondary'. (Howard Roark, in The Fountainhead)

[@Thekeninger]

@@nikos_1717 The nature of the reality we live in is that everything is interdependent. A creator who thinks they are an independent entity lives in an illusion. Even if they are a hermit living in a cave, they are still dependent on nature and circumstances. Rationalism, although useful, is still another form of mental conditioning. Conquering nature for the sake of conquest is nothing more than fulfilling one’s desires. There's no need to build a philosophy around it and inflate one’s ego even further. It does not make you great. Calling someone a parasite for needing others is a new level of delusion. We are social creatures, we form social structures, and we need each other. To criticize this interdependence is truly vile. The fact that I can write this silly comment on youtube via internet is the result of countless people, often unknowingly, contributing their part to the building of civilization. A truly great person creates based on the recognition that they are interdependent with all beings and reality, and that their work will serve not only themselves but all future generations. A great creator desires to help humanity, to enrich human life and experience. They do not pursue their selfish motives. This is what makes a person truly great.

[@gumis123PL]

It's for this reason Nietzsche or for that matter this bronze age mindset does not make sense to me. Life in their arrangement appears to me as pretty much a negative-sum game, an absurdity where a persons worth is determined by ultimately not much more than luck and chance (as an individuals potential for power is determined mainly by circumstantial factors such as genetics and the hospitality of their environment) to add to the absurdity, the great man's power was never truly his or even willed by him. it was a gift of nature. As David B. Hart succulently puts it, "But all the things about the world that enchant us, viewed in proper proportion to the whole, are at best tiny flickers of light amid a limitless darkness. The calculus of our existence is quite pitilessly exact in the end. Children die of monstrous diseases, in torment; nature is steeped in the blood of the weak, but then also of the strong; the logic of history is a gay romp through an endless abattoir, a succession of meaningless epochs delineated only by wars, conquests, enslavements, spoliations, mass murders, and all the empires of the merciless. The few happy savages among us whose lives pass in an unbroken flow of idyllic contentment and end in a final peaceful sleep are so rare that their good fortune, posed against the majestic immensity of the rest of humanity’s misery, looks like little more than one of fate’s more morbid jests."

[@TeaParty1776]

@@Thekeninger Egoism is a basic dependence on the mind. But, non-basically, man benefits from other people. Morality is a guide to life, not a guide to the saccrifice of life. IF you want to live, you SHOULD think independently.

[@Thekeninger]

@@TeaParty1776 Egoism is not a dependency of the mind. The mind provides you with thoughts and ideas based on the body's needs, and then the ego translates these into a singular thought - 'I need to eat' - after which the mind figures out how to obtain what is needed. Ego itself is an idea created by the mind. So, by saying that egoism is a dependency of the mind, you create a loop where the mind creates a dependency on itself. However, this is a wrong definition of egoism, which is simply an extreme view of oneself that often leads to the exclusion of the needs of others. Morality is a set of rules and values. Most religious moral systems emphasize self-sacrifice; for example, Christ is the embodied ideal man for Christians, representing the ultimate version of self-sacrifice. Yes, you must think independently, but to do so, you must recognize that all thoughts and ideas are just products of the minds. You must have the wisdom to know which thoughts are beneficial for you and others and ensure that they do not bring suffering to anyone. You must think with good intentions.

[@entropino9928]

Love it

[@nikos_1717]

Thank you!

[@gregoryallen0001]

@2:32 SITPOSTING yes

[@ChucksExotics]

This guy is making BAP sound way more influential than he is.

[@topol6]

Might makes right.

[@heressomestuffifound]

13:30 these scenarios and ideals all break down when nuclear weapons and automated warfare exist. It renders the whole premise absurd.

[@TeaParty1776]

Machines dont make decisions.

[@heressomestuffifound]

@@TeaParty1776 No (aside from AI so that may be changing) but they DO have real consequences when they’re used. The warrior aristocratic ideal paired with nuclear weapons… again, renders the premise absurd.

[@TeaParty1776]

@@heressomestuffifound >The warrior aristocratic ideal paired with nuclear weapons… again, renders the premise absurd. What premise? Are you agreeing that man makes choices?

[@heressomestuffifound]

@@TeaParty1776 You can have the highest Bronze Age ideals of warrior aristocracy and strength and the moment a nuclear war starts or you walk into a line of machine guns that someone decided to deploy on the battlefield- which WILL and IS happening (the machine gun part, not the nuclear part yet thank goodness) all those ideals are rendered meaningless and suicidal. Essentially, this was what happened after the first World War. Yes, people make decisions and those decisions can be catastrophic if warfare and militarism is seen as an ideal when the spears become nukes. If you’re not seeing the very obvious point of what I’m saying here I’m not sure there’s much point in continuing this discussion.

[@TeaParty1776]

@@heressomestuffifound How about Jesus w/nukes, lusting for sacrifice,like in the Crusades or the 16th and 17th century religious wars that disgusted and horrified Ameicas Enlightenment founders?

[@SwainBjornstrandt]

Not even kidding. I looked for the book online to buy it. Frequently bought together section contained gothic violence and harassment architecture.

[@nikos_1717]

This escalated quickly, Amazon

[@SwainBjornstrandt]

@@nikos_1717 αγαπητε συντοπίτη, εισαι ενεργός στα σόσιαλ? Έχουμε κοινούς προβληματισμους.

[@henrykkaufman1488]

Well, the Bronze Age Mindset is analogous to how "The Beautiful Ones" behaved in Calhoun Mouse Utopia Experiment. This observation doesn't fill me with hope though.

[@nikos_1717]

I'm not very familiar with the experiment, but I think I get the metaphor.

[@henrykkaufman1488]

The Beautiful Ones was a moniker for young male mice who didn't compete for females (all those were long claimed by oldest mice). Those males mostly only groomed themselves.

[@peacebuddha96]

I look up to becoming a lesbian gulag guard 😂 hope its okay that I'm white tho. But jokes aside the dude is extreme right with the escape through beauty. I will focus on good stuff a little bit more from now on.

[@nikos_1717]

Yes, that't what I think people find appealing.

[@mnky47]

Thank you. This was helpful.

[@vincentrockel1149]

I find this view interesting. When it comes to knowing with certainty, anything involving popular culture l think it is unlikely. We either accept the projected narrative or we don't. Little is what it seems.

[@Prometheus7272]

This is pretty good but you do mistake irony for actual opinion.

[@fusion9619]

That was fantastic. I'm gonna see if i can pirate that book somewhere.

[@bensanderson7144]

Great lecture. BAP is probably more of a primal scream. He’s an Ivy League educated young man living in the age of feminism. His musings are most likely an overreaction to that.

[@nikos_1717]

BAP as a scream is a nice metaphor.

[@asapGooby]

Costin Alamariu

[@vincentrockel1149]

I don't believe that your final summation that the best days are ahead is correct.. at least in the short term. In the course of less than 100 years, the majority of humans in the advanced world do not have basic survival knowledge. Tasks that virtually everyone knew how to accomplish previously are now alien. We are dependent on the system, and most have little to no personal agency.

[@reedkinney8776]

The theme of western civilization is "domination." (Paulo Freire) I elaborate that the theme of western civilization is conquest and domination.

[@texasRoofDoctor]

This was great, but I had to laugh when I figured out that he was trying to use Mitt Romney as Alkibiades. Romney does not have 1/10 of the stones that Alkibiades had.

[@aboutnothing6482]

Yes that is one of the points BAP is trying to make, good job.

[@VincentHanna1995]

The fruit of the tree is most important. Just read how Nietszche turned out in the end

[@Arbognire]

…didn’t he contract syphilis which drove to his insanity❔

[@mitch0990]

Please check out the recent debate between Yaron Brooks and Jay Dyer. The incoherence and irrationality of objectivism was on display.

[@luukzwart115]

Thanks for the recommendation.

[@TeaParty1776]

Tell us about the alleged display.

[@CapitalistSpy]

Interesting Very interesting

[@YedidiyaK]

An invisible ego is the image of God. Nonetheless I see you, because you are merely glowing from reflection. I am here, but you are a glass, these words are the only words that matter to you, nothing. I paint with permanent light and see through your face the facade of your disappointment, how could you see any value. I Celebrate. You will applaud, like a sheep who can only agree to be happy.

[@septillionsuns]

postmodernists are a boil on the face of late capitalism.

[@edwardburroughs1489]

Madame Le Pen's father was indeed far-right so I guess that's how she acquired the label. Not sure what shes all about though.

[@kickywicky4616]

Oh, but he is a basement dweller, the basement of the mind.

[@ab_c4429]

Enjoyed this talk. I’ll say that I like both BAP and Rand, and that you were quite fair to him here. But you pin his views too much to what he’s written in his book. If you listen to his podcast (which I highly recommend), you’ll find that he’s very reasonable, knowledgeable and reality oriented. One important thing you missed in why BAP is popular; he has humor and is not afraid to offend. One more thing; BAP is a net ally and you should view him as such. The mistake I feel many objectivists make is too denounce everyone and everything that isn’t 100% objectivist. At the end of the day, what BAP advocates to his readers is not much different than what Rand does. Even politically, BAP is sympathetic to capitalism. You should listen to his episodes on Milei especially. One fun detail you might like: in BAP’s interview with Michael Malice, Malice ends with a direct quote from the Fountainhead that encapsulates part of BAP’s beliefs. I think it’s no coincidence that Rand was fond of Nietzsche (and even wanted to quote him in the Fountainhead at first). It’s the same kind of spirit that both Rand and BAP try to capture, just in different ways. I hope some of this was useful to you.

[@sybo59]

Well-written comment, but way off the mark. If you understand Objectivism, which you obviously have some knowledge of, you know how much hinges on its epistemology. BAP has, as far as I can tell, ZERO meaningful overlap here, which I’d say precludes him from any “net ally” status. You point to his alleged sympathy for capitalism as a positive, but without the right foundations, this is meaningless.There are very good reasons that Objectivists are so selective with allies. Tons of people argue in a similar way as you that O-ists are just being tedious by not working with libertarians and “anarcho-capitalists,” but they base that view on the most superficial, non-essential similarities.

[@nikos_1717]

Thank you for the kind words. Indeed, BAP the podcaster has a different vibe than BAM and his twitter page. I watched the discussion with Malice and whatever I could find of the discussion with Yarvin. The problem though is that at the end of the day it's difficult to tell which of BAP's views are his actual views and which are irony/trolling. The issue with this is that many of the followers cling more to the light-joke stuff, and less to the more serious one, like the need for physical/spiritual excellence. There's no point in speaking of 'net allies', as there is no movement or network here. If some people read him, and after take their lives more seriously, and become more ambitious on what it's possible, then good. If people read him and become ugly collectivists, then no good. PS: I've never understood the obsession with the fascist-y aesthetic in the dissident Right. Nietzsche would recognize fascism as the par-excellence last man-peasant-NPC movement, as any type of socialism, progressive or reactionary.

[@ab_c4429]

@@nikos_1717 You're correct that there is no movement. In fact BAP doesn't even see himself as some sort of leader. So viewing people as 'allies' may not be the way to go. I just wanted to convey that harsh/bad-faith criticism may steer otherwise sympathetic followers of BAP away from more liberty oriented right-wing thinkers. (Just to be clear your criticism was not bad faith) From what I've seen so far, none of BAP's fans are true collectivists/tribalists. He continuously rails against petty nationalism, collectivism, conservatives etc. You can see the distinction well with other 'new-right' factions on things like Israel and Milei. In fact BAP correctly points out that the new 'Maga-communists' (Fuentes et al.) are just different versions of the same third-world thinking. On your last point I think the way to view fascism is strictly as a counter to communism. BAP does not really care about economics, he just wants a group of military men to guide things to the right path. (But if you listen more closely he clearly doesn't approve of more taxes and regulations). So they see fascism from then as an antidote to the great ugliness that was communism. Besides that there is hardly anyone more taboo than Hitler, so it makes for easy provocation. Your view on how Nietzsche saw fascism is spot-on btw.

[@ab_c4429]

@@sybo59 I understand your point. I don't think his sympathy towards capitalism is 'meaningless'. It would be meaningless if figures like BAP had absolutely no influence. If you're online a lot you'll see that there are very few popular right wingers who would defend Milei, tax-cuts and deregulation, but BAP did so. That in itself can be of great value, regardless of the disagreements on fundamental level.

[@Thekeninger]

When /pol user writes a book xD

[@johnandrews1162]

Sounds like Nietzsche.

[@AndosaGosabu]

Should be read with Hannah Arendt. But it seems like garbage to me.

[@nikos_1717]

Still worth a read, one needs to understand the nerve it hit.

[@bankiey]

Religion is who else is saying that. All religions want to save you from a great ugliness

[@nikos_1717]

(laughs in Nietzsche)

[@bryanutility9609]

This clothesmos speaker needs to hit the gym would totally favor Giga Chad. He didn’t exactly say what he would do differently tho. Ended like a Ted Talk 😂

[@jacklondon999]

Loony bin!

[@kamiboido]

Jew age mindset

[@CJFCarlsson]

Roumania. A joke.