Are vows biblical?

Members of the Bruderhof make lifetime promises of faithfulness, poverty, obedience, and chastity (www.bruderhof..... In this video, Timothy and Richard explore the biblical basis for making vows.
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[@WitOn4Wheelz]

It's always great to see people like yourselves who actually live the the way it is sad to live in the Bible, especially if you're going to hold the Bible up what some people call God's book to live by. It's the people who push that book and truly do not live by it that poison it. Thank you very much

[@Caleb.S.Spangenberg]

In essence: "My yes is yes. Nothing more. Nothing less. I shall strive for my best acquisitiveness of following through any promise that's due."

[@user-pn7wt4db8c]

I fully agree that vows are a good mechanism to be fully accountable and committed to a cause that is greater than ourselves. Thank you for for that wonderful conversation, definitely food for though. God richly bless your ministry

[@melfros7100]

FURTHER DIALOG 15:24…we'll be glad15:27to uh glad to discuss it in the comments SHOULD ONE TAKE A VOW TO A SPECIFIC GROUP OF BELIEVERS? 14:58.. I mean there's no14:59command of Jesus that says you have to 15:01make vows to a body of Believers …14:32you like um we really should live in 14:35such a state of truthfulness that that14:37we don't need Ceremonies 12:53…Jesus says let your yes be yes let12:55your no be no anything else comes from 12:56the devil 13:2 Jesus in The Sermon on the Mount 13:22says do not 13:24swear by heaven or Earth or Jerusalem or 13:29the hair on your head um so what what13:32does he mean by that and there I think 13:36what's going on there is he's calling us 13:38to the kind of life where we take 13:41telling the truth so seriously that vows 13:43are no longer necessary because the 13:45whole point of the whole point of vows 13:48is you want everyone to know including 13:50God that you really mean what you say. IS A VOW TO A BODY OF BELIEVERS BIBLICAL? 14:46anyone makes a commitment to the14:48brutter (Bruderhof) on their knees in front of14:50Witnesses in the sight of God that's14:53binding that's binding um and it's 14:58difficult to say I mean there's no14:59command of Jesus that says you have to 15:01make vows to a body of Believers15:05there is as I said biblical vows the 15:08importance of staying true to the people15:10who you live in community with we take 15:13it seriously um yeah so this is CAN A VOW EVER COME INTO CONFLICT WITH THE LEADING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT? 10:38question I just want to throw in there10:40because it's probably on some people's 10:42minds you often see in particularly in10:43Christian discourse people talking about 10:45moving from church to church um saying10:47God God led us here.. 10:54and and there's this I think a valid 10:57question about the leading of the spirit10:58the Holy Spirit and and would the11:01leading of the Holy Spirit actually ever11:03come in Conflict um with a 11:06Vow that's a good question

[@melfros7100]

Thank you for broaching a sensitive topic. It seems to me if a member cannot be released from their vows, it implies the Bruderhof is the only true way to live the committed Christian life. It also implies a forced commitment to something one may, with time, have come to see differently. If, as members now make clear, theirs is not the only way to live for Jesus, this can be achieved only if baptism vows are to Jesus, and him alone. True, baptism vows find EXPRESSION within the Bruderhof context, but they also supersede it. I can recall several examples where members felt compelled to leave the Bruderhof because leaving was the only way they could remain faithful to Jesus! These members tried, to no avail, to explain where the Bruderhof church had gone astray. In order to remain faithful to Jesus, there was no other option but to leave. Life was made unbearable, and they were forced to leave, enduring great hardship. A family member of mine was labeled "unfaithful"; a "vow breaker". Fortunately the Bruderhof came around to seeing the error of labeling former members who had left for conscience' sake. It would mean a great deal to me if the Bruderhof could PUBLICLY acknowledge that grievous errors were committed. I think this is an important step towards reconciliation. Thank you for opening a sensitive discussion.

[@melfros7100]

Disclaimer: Neither for my over-forty-years marriage nor for my baptism did I take vows. The basis for my enduring commitments has been to speak truthfully; to take the spoken and written word seriously. For that I thank my Bruderhof upbringing. After further discussion and reflection, it may not be unreasonable to expect an irrevocable commitment to the Bruderhof. As Tim points out, there are biblical examples of quid-pro-quo (I'll do this if you do that) vows to be found in the Old Testament. (Aside and interestingly, the Catholic Church provides a means for release from vows taken.) With this in mind, here is my question/concern, and it is based on personal experiences. I welcome your thoughts, Tim, Richard and anyone else. If, as the Tim and Richard have noted, a life-enduring vow is not a requirement for following Jesus, but a commitment to the Bruderhof's way of discipleship requires it, how then shall the faithful Hof member respond in a situation where their vow demands obedience but the Spirit leads elsewhere? What shall the faithful Hof member do if they hear the Voice of the Spirit asking them, "Are you willing to follow my call, come what may?" In short, when does a vow take precedence over Spirit Leading? Is there a scriptural basis? Thank you for any insight you can offer.

[@Bruderhof]

This is a good question. Hopefully we can explore in a future video.

[@melfros7100]

@@Bruderhof Thank you. It would like to encourage you both to participate in an ongoing discussion here. Context is important. The transcript of your presentation, along with comments and questions expressed here provide rich food for thought. Thanks.

[@md9680]

My wife and I made lifelong vows to a different intentional Christian community and God ages ago that we broke when we left just a few years later. It was devastating to us and the community. At the time, we felt it was almost as though we had broken our marriage vows. I find myself still troubled to an extent about that chapter in our lives and, even though the community no longer exists, those vows we made then, like our earlier marriage vows, seem to me to be somehow still in effect. What do you think? Thank you.

[@Bruderhof]

Thank you for sharing about your experience. We'll respond in the next video!

[@Mattjh1969]

Hello, thanks for discussing these topics. As far as I know, the only lifetime vow in the Bible is for marriage, and even that is not specified directly (Humans make vows to help us stay committed), but are Marriage vows actually given in the Bible? Not that I know of. I do know that the Bible teaches that marriage is between one woman and one man and should be for life and that is commanded. My understanding is that any kind of vow is before God and the marriage partner. I'm not saying vows are wrong or shouldn't be used, but I don't think they are necessarily commanded and are rather put there by humans to help stay faithful or for whatever. I would think the same would go for membership vows. Are they biblically commanded or required, or is it humans adding them there to help us be more faithful or whatever. I think it is the latter. I would appreciate your feed back on this and if there are any biblical references could you please list them. Thank you

[@billcanonico6657]

what does a bruderhof wedding [vows, etc] consist of? for example, are the vows taken in accordance with civil authority, or just before God and the community?

[@Bruderhof]

Vows are taken before God and the community but are also recognized by the authorities.

[@melfros7100]

Please read their online book, Foundations of Our Faith and Calling. It clearly addresses marriage vows. The vow of faithfulness to the community takes primacy over the vow to one's spouse. If one partner is perceived to falter and leave, the other must promise to remain true to the church (Bruderhof).

[@andrewdewitt7234]

Thank you for an interesting and thought-provoking discussion. That vows (or witnessed promises) appear in scripture is plain, but is taking vows a condition required for following Jesus? Non of the apostles did, so no. However, asking the question, are vows required for certain styles of discipleship where interdependance within a group is cruicial, then on a purely human level, then yes - to the group and witnessed by the group and by God. (Not forgetting we shall be held accountable 'for the least of our utterances'). Next question - is the Bruderhoff style of discipleship the only style of discipleship acceptable to God? I think the discussion on the meat sacrificed to idols in the NT precludes this idea. Perhaps a discussion on 'fellowship' and purity of doctrine next.....😮

[@melfros7100]

Your response sparked a meaningful exchange between myself and a (Christian) friend. We both were drawn to your observation that "certain styles of discipleship" require vows. In order to, as Hof moderators hint, encourage further exchanges, I've copied dialog under what I consider to be crucial topics. Would you care to comment (above)? Vielen Dank.

[@Bruderhof]

Thanks Andrew. We hope to explore these questions next week!

[@kenlinden9621]

You are bound by what you agree to.

[@PmdTV4]

but in all biblical situations it was a vow to god or to the lord, never to a specific church. to my brothers and sister and to god, fine, to a specific church, that cannot be done. It begs the question, are you trying to filter out real believers to have more malleable people? Please reconsider the wording of your vows to be made for god and a vow to your brothers and sisters to always be good for god, the vows of poverty all those others are fine. But the wording of vows "to this specific church" that just cannot be done, its where you show your colors from wanting believers to wanting more easily influenced people. Id really love to join, im heavily considering it, but this is a hurdle i cannot overcome, because it would be jumping into a dark hole into which I am unfamiliar. "We pledge to yield ourselves up in obedience to Christ and our brothers and sisters, promising to serve the church community wherever and however we are asked." "We pledge to yield ourselves up in obedience to Christ" this means treating your neighbors as yourself, and helping the poor and serving your brothers and sisters and your community around the world in the ways we are called to by God. Not in "however the church asked". That is implied secondarily, if you changed the phrasing you make God the head and the church subordinate. In its current wording, the church acts as God. Is this the vatican? But I agree, a vow is not an oath. But yea, if the truth is implied, how is a vow to God not sufficient? I understand people are sinners and need something, some sort of guideline to hold them accountable, but the people you should be really trying to bring in is just one, the lost sheep, the one for the 99. and here it seems you are going after the 99, because the 1 would only ever do a vow to God. So then what are you? Change the wording and put God as the head and the door will be much clearer. Please and thank you, I implore you.

[@michaelgibbs3147]

TJ……..:-)