The Failure and Redemption of Persona 2

[@bubbletea_]

i did make videos on innocent sin and eternal punishment years ago. but much like with the persona 3 retrospective, i felt like i didn't say enough or articulate my thoughts well enough as well as just wanting something at my current standard of quality that will age better even as my standards get higher. i'm pretty satisfied with the end result. i had to go back and fix many errors and render this video several times, but it's finally done. support me on patreon for more in-depth updates and to help the channel financially if you so choose: www.patreon.com/bubbletea_

[@shelbybayer200]

The actual theme of the Duoalogy would be "Forgiveness of the past" or to be more accurate "The Sins committed in the past by an Innocent person who doesn't remember they sinned"

[@starmaker75]

I sometimes joke that persona 2 innocent sin is omori but was written by Hirohiko Arakio(JoJo bizarre adventure creator).

[@BaofuTheCanonicalPersonaHater]

this is pretty accurate (i love Omori, JoJo, and P2IS)

[@AsterYsk-d9f]

I mean, Araki and Kaneko were buddy-buddies at that Time.

[@theimpersonator7086]

Honestly, the main thing about having an adult cast for me is that I find a lot of the adult characters in the modern games far more interesting and compelling than most party members. Feels like the writers are in their element more with the adult cast. Like I find Mutatsu, Dojima, Sae, or Akinari far more enjoyable and interesting than say a Fuuka, Ken, Chie, or a lot of 5's cast tbh.

[@starmaker75]

That's what I think people are saying about wanting persona games with adults. I would like to see a persona games with adults and like as well because it would be a way to shake some things. However it is mostly likely not happening because persona is a "teen" series or at least market towards them.

[@CelestiaLily]

On your general point I 100% agree!! I'm just surprised at Akinari since at 19 he's just a year older than all the upperclassmen towards the end of their games (Mitsuru, Akihiko, Shinjiro, and then Makoto, Haru, & Akechi). I guess he _is_ actually an adult lmao I've just always grouped him in with teens if nineteen is the absolute maximum that applies

[@theimpersonator7086]

@@CelestiaLily I thought Akinari was a dude in his late 20s/early 30s what lmao

[@coffee9658]

@@theimpersonator7086it’s the hair man that shit makes him look old as hell

[@ChiangKai-Shrek]

@@theimpersonator7086 I've only played Reload so I don't know if the OG has this line, but Akinari's mom confirms that he was 19 on the last day of the game if you interact with her on the bench.

[@dragonblaze201]

I think the Yukino part on her giving up her Persona to Jun is meant to symbolise giving a chance to someone else to work towards a bright future like Miss Saeko did for her, her no longer needing her a persona since she embodies the same traits that miss saeko once did for her, giving a person a chance to forgive and redeems themselves for their misgivings. Death isnt the only way of passing down ones ideals and dreams to another person, where a person can willingly pass it down and have another person accept that regardless of whether that other person feels like they deserve them. Acknowledging and being willing to give up something that once really helped you get through tough times and being able to move forward to the future without that thing now, through passing it down to someone else. Ultimately a Persona a stepping stone in ones life until they no longer need it, Is in line with Philemon point about Humanity reaching self actualization through the bonds they forge and not falling in the temptations of the weaknesses formed by the shadows of ones heart that can be faced together with others

[@maritessa]

Big Persona 2 fan here and I agree with your criticism! Honestly, I legitimately was confused as to what the hell was going on in my first playthrough of P2:IS because there was just way too much information that they throw at you? Not to mention when one thing starts to make sense, they throw another curveball so it's like???? OKAY??? P2:EP is more of a: okay, we can undoom the narrative guys, let's do this! (The narrative is still doomed) But, I think it's more of a preference thing on my end. I really like going back to media and analyzing things to see if I missed some details and P2 has a LOT of hints and easter eggs when you talk to the NPCs. There are hints about Jun before the reveal when u walk around Kasugayama or like Maya talking about Ulala when u try to enter some buildings... I get that it seems out of place for some people but I just really like how alive the city is and we're not the center of everything. If you want to know about the mystery, then go out and investigate. Everyone's dialogue changes when something significant happens to the city and I swear I visit EVERY TOWN AND EVERY SHOP to get all the dialogue. I don't think P2 has the most mature plot, I just think it seems that way cause it has the most unhinged plot that seems unexpected. Like woah there's the Fuhrer then a cult??? Then IDK?! LITERAL CHAOS DEITY WAS BEHIND IT ALL?? like there's just way too many unhinged plot twists that not a lot of games would dare to attempt because it'll seem problematic and somehow that made the fandom advertise it as "adult". I personally enjoyed the plot because I just like doomed by the narrative tropes (lol). I think it's just trying to say that humans are vulnerable and weak honestly so we should try to be strong. P2:IS happened because the shadows in their hearts were exploited. Still, I love this game very much and it's because I feel attached to the characters. I understand that they aren't the deepest and most explored characters but I think that gives me an avenue to fill in the blanks and interpret their dynamics as a player. P2 truly is more on immersing yourself in the world and exploring as much as you can to get the most out of it. Is it for everyone? I don't think so. Do I think everyone should give it a shot? Yes, if they're interested! I yapped too much lmao but the oldsona fandoms are comparatively smaller compared to the modernsonas so I'm always glad to see it being talked about in any form of media. Thank you so much for this video!

[@WanderingNerd21]

I agree with you. Tatsuya really became my favorite character during Eternal Punishment, mainly because he practically asked the same question about what being an adult is like when I was around his age (granted I was 17 by the time I played EP, but it still hit hard to me since I was getting ready to graduate and I was uncertain about the future 😅)

[@maritessa]

@@WanderingNerd21 when the adults just looked down when Baofu answered was so real 💀💀 we all don't know what we're doing Tatsuya //shot

[@backupschmliff1156]

People who don't talk to NPC in ATLUS games are playing them wrong. ATLUS games have the BEST use of NPCs. They are written selfishly rather than being signposts like in other RPGs. It makes them so much more full of life and makes the world more real.

[@jank0pf]

38:00 Not everyone seeks extravagant goals or luxury, something as simple as starting a family IS a dream goal. Some people seek the beauty of simplicity.

[@pinkraven7043]

Agree. I find if strange to criticize the notion that there are people whose goal in life is simple like that. Not everyone aims high and it's not like saying "I dream of marrying and having kids" = "that's all I have going in my life." Some people's dream is to have a house and 10 dogs- doesn't mean they don't aim for anything else, it means that's a final goal they want to work toward. Just like someone who wants to get married.

[@coffee9658]

That’s not the point he’s really tryna make there. His point is that Lisa only exists for the protagonist, she has no character or development outside that and that is what he is trying to convey. His point is that she is a horrible representation of a good written female character

[@frogicalon1627]

35:38 I feel like it’s a bit unfair to frame the complaints about how Ann is handled as just being about how the camera lingers on her when they are a lot more substantial than that.

[@checkmate3735]

Ann Takamaki is an actual character and I’m tired of people saying she’s all fanservice Edit: Imagine thinking she’s a rounded character with thoughts and feelings despite her shaky-at-times writing. Nuance? What’s that?

[@Antegggggggggg]

Ok, shes not all fanservice but mostly fanservice

[@cristianoducceschi3547]

If you say that you didn't understand her character ​@@Antegggggggggg

[@chadhardt6136]

i know walls with more character than ann lmao

[@starmaker75]

Too bad atlus forgets that at times

[@leandrabarros3582]

I love how she still confident to her beauty and her worth even after everything she went trough. She's amazing

[@reimu3627]

What I love so much about the duology is that they’re funny games and that the world in both games are very fleshed out and feel alive. Replaying Innocent Sin in particular was a treat because I loved a lot of the NPCs in the game. It doesn’t matter how little some of them appear, they’ll always have a small introduction when you meet them and it’s usually a funny description. I love that you’ll meet characters who’re going to be very important in Eternal Punishment like Katsuya and Ulala, just there living their lives. Ulala being a Persona user isn’t really a hype moment, it just happens. When you find Katsuya you’ll get a small little tidbit that he and Tatsuya have a strained relationship, but it isn’t important to the game so it doesn’t get touched on. I love that something like that is just a part of the world, and it makes the world in IS feel so alive. I love that you’ll see many NPCs that have uniforms from St. Hermelin and Karukozaka high. I love that a lot of smaller characters in Persona 1 are there, Tamaki being a devil summoner and Kenta having a Persona he uses for his job are really cool and funny small details. Reiji going to Kenta for career advice because his Persona has an aura that makes people avoid him is so weirdly charming because it doesn't add to the overall narrative of ANY GAME but it makes the characters more memorable and makes me want to watch a show with them just living their daily lives. The main cast in Persona 1 being characters in the duology doesn’t feel like fanservice because the world in early Persona just feels well thought out and natural. Maki looking to be a therapist is a logical conclusion for her character and you’ll miss it if you don’t randomly meet her in a random store in IS. I think it’s a shame early Persona barely if ever gets props for world building because it’s as good, if not more interesting, as early Kiseki. Early Persona and Devil Summoner are my ideal worlds for JRPGs, they just feel so alive compared to other JRPGs. I also want to add that replaying Innocent Sin PSX is when the combat clicked for me, and playing the PSP version of Eternal Punishment is when the combat became my favorite in the Persona series.

[@NeutralOffensive]

I agree with this completely. Honestly, I would absolutely love to see the Devil Summoner-Persona connection make a comeback in some form. I get that it probably would never happen in a mainline game, but even if it’s relegated to a spinoff, I would love to see another game exploring that world in the way it was portrayed in P1 and P2. I know there were theories floating around based on P4 Arena that at least some of the P2 characters may be part of Mistsuru’s Shadow Operatives. Imagine a spinoff game based on that group. I bet you could easily squeeze some Devil Summoner connections into a game with that premise. Maybe have a Kuzunoha roll up or something like that. That would be a dream game for me. Also the fact that all the Persona 1 and 2 references were kept in Reload gives me hope that something like this could at the very least be possible, even if it’s unlikely to ever happen.

[@reimu3627]

@@NeutralOffensive I loved how the third sem in P5R used NPCs to tell a small story that effectively showed how Maruki’s world isn’t as perfect as he believes it was so I have hope that NPCs are going to be better utilized in P6, but I doubt the world is going to be as distinct and full of life as early Persona/Devil Summoner sadly. Those games also remind me of the Nasuverse where Kinoko Nasu’s 3 major urban fantasy visual novels are in different timelines, but they all have the same basic “mechanics”, like all of them having the same major organizations like the church and the clocktower mages. Persona 2 might not have THE Raidou Kuzunoha XIV, but the Kuzunoha clan is still an established part of the world, same for devil summoners and the expanse. Idk I’m just rambling at this point lol

[@NessBrawl64]

This isn't as character-driven as the examples you mentioned, but it still adds to your point, so I'll talk about it. One of my favorite pieces of lore/worldbuilding in Persona will always be the notes you find at IS's Abandoned Factory. It was a really good example of how rumors that become reality could be twisted to catastrophic results. People clearly didn't quite know what was going on at that factory, so they started spreading rumors about the place, and it slowly spiraled out of control to the end result you see the moment you go there: a place overrun by demons. You can _easily_ guess how the notes will end just from reading the first few of them, and since it's just the area's backstory it's nothing special, but that didn't make me lose any interest in seeing the whole story. I like to compare it to Pokémon Mansion in RBY - you know, the place where Mewtwo was created, all the logs you find about its creation and what the place is like when you visit it. That area was used to hype up Mewtwo as a powerful legendary pokémon (and it was effective, to the point part of it was used for its story in the first movie), and here instead we trade that payoff for simply integrating it with the rest of the game's lore. And imo it works well. Since the entire area is optional (meaning you don't need to see any of it), one could argue this was wasted potential and there could be more done with the place, and while that's a fair opinion, I believe that not _everything_ in a world needs to be given spotlight/story relevance in order to give us more about that world, and this was a decent example of it. It's one thing games will always have over other forms of media, anyway

[@andrewcasias2676]

I genuinely do not understand how it could be confusing to have two characters named Makoto in the same series when they’re in completely different games, look completely different, aren’t even the same GENDER, and have completely different roles in the story. It is NOT confusing!

[@pinkraven7043]

Maybe I hang around the wrong side of the internet or fandom, but I don't hear "confusing" as much as "it's mildly inconvenient." In casual conversation you have to occassjianly specify which Makoto you're talking about. Like how it verbal conversation, friends and I have to emphasize whether we're talking about "YOsuke/YUsuke" or "RYUji/RYOji". Again- not confusing, but just a tiiiiiiny bit more work when conversing.

[@ajzn97]

What about Joker?

[@neworldfool9625]

P3 MC is Minato Arisato I don’t care if they retcon it in-universe.

[@shibeking1809]

@@pinkraven7043it’s not hard to just go “P3Makoto” or “P5Makoto” though 😅

[@iantaran2843]

I just wish she wasen't so boring and bland 😐

[@milesedgeworth2981]

I disagree with many points in the video, especially those related to the characters, but if what you were trying to do is use the same yardstick that Persona 2 fans use with the modern trilogy, then you are 100% right. Like, Lisa is one of my favorites and wanting to marry doesn't makes her lame or a bad female character, but people saying that she's so much better than Ann are being dishonest, all her trauma is just a single line of dialogue that never gets brought up again.

[@starmaker75]

If we are going to do persona remakes now, I hope the next remakes it should be the persona 2 duology(and persona 1). Seriously persona 2 having the press turn system would really help it, that and having more voice acting and modern graphics. For me, it weird people said persona 2 duology is so different and dark and the likes. I mean persona 2 duology and persona 3 atmosphere is pretty similar. I mean sure there no social links, but the story I can see happening in modern persona games.

[@nightwish1453]

1 should go first, mainly due to continuity. i do think the three games has the problem of due to it's older tech the extra scenes and scenarios that happen aren't always visible. tea says there is no romance between Naoya and Elly and I noticed other people say similar things however you will only see that if you picked Elly in the sebec route or have read the manga in which it's pretty visible and it's not lisa/rise type stuff it's more like with yukiko and haru crushing on the MC where it's pretty sweet and wholesome. I am in belief he picked Reiji for sebec hence he wasn't able to see it

[@unknownuser494]

I don't think IS is dark but EP is definitely the darkest game in persona series because of JOKER experiments. Also P1 is also pretty dark especially it's dreamy and uncanny atmosphere.

[@nightwish1453]

@@unknownuser494 i mean EP is darker then IS but it certainly has it's wacky aspect like some of it's villains even the term Joker itself is kind of memey especially now. i would say p3 is the most dark as regardless of lens there is always something sad even in the dancing game of all things

[@unknownuser494]

​@@nightwish1453 I also thought JOKER was funny until everyone turning joker like zombies and the way kandori was extracting joker out of people was pretty creepy.

[@pancaek_boi]

"I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS!!!"

[@The4thSnake]

Persona fans ALWAYS fall into the exact traps the games warn against. Just look at P4.

[@anxhelovucinaj1576]

To be fair P4 ain't doing itself any favor with moments like the"beauty pegant and Yosuke's internalized homophobia"so

[@TheDsLeet]

​@@anxhelovucinaj1576 Both of which are funny and don't get in the way of the themes

[@anxhelovucinaj1576]

@@TheDsLeet So apparently accusing your friend of being a predator,making fun of people by calling creepy by cross dressing and making people oogle at girls in swimsuits without THEIR CONSENT qualifies as"funny"for some reason,especially when these guys that I'm meant to believe are friends act like degenerates with eachother,suuuuuuure very funny

[@pinkraven7043]

​​@@anxhelovucinaj1576 I won't criticize how you read the content/humor since it's ultimately subjective (though worth noting how it's a common trope in anime so it can also be considered a case of "Japanese fans like this kind of stuff more than fans from other cultures".) But "friends acting degenerate with eachother" is exactly how friend dynamics work. Observe any pair/group of tight-knit people (especially teens) and you'll realize that they'll do/say some of the worst things to one another and laugh about it. Being able to be degenerate around someone is a sign that you're comfortable and there's an understanding of intent. Of course it can be read that the P4 cast can "take it too far" but, personally, I can accept it since it's a work of fiction. It's a JRPG with very anime tropes. Exaggeration is part of the medium.

[@milesedgeworth2981]

And P3 too. Just look at how many people want to save Shinji or revive Makoto, which completely contradicts the themes of the game.

[@geoshmeo1900]

This was a very well-made video, easily digestible, and easy to understand your points. While I don't personally agree with everything you said in the video (if I had to be specific: EP gameplay, theming, and music (though this last one is just because I view EP as having the best ost)), I still understand exactly where you are coming from and found myself agreeing with a lot of what you said (especially a lot of tidbits with IS).

[@StrayPitboss]

Man opened up on Innocent Sin seeking a theme, determined there had to be one, and proceeded to knock it because the one he imagined didn't pass muster. "Father issues" is not a theme - it's a thing some of the cast have in common. Not all old games have themes to begin with. "What is Persona 2 Innocent Sin even about?" He asks. And I answer: "It's about the events taking place surrounding Tatsuya Suou and his friends, from the fire at the shrine onwards." A game, even a narrative-driven one, can just focus on telling the story of the characters it involves without need of any overarching theme getting in the way; this allows a cast to not be tied down by some universal constant. You're coming at P2 through the lens of the modern trilogy. Start from the theme and work backwards. And in the absence of one, you just whip up your own and apply negative marks accordingly. The Einstein quote of judging a fish by its ability to climb a tree comes to mind. I've watched your work for a good little while and this is the first time I got the notion that you were being pretentious, even a little up-your-own-ass. In the future I'd advise divorcing yourself a bit from this mindset. You remind me here of exaggerated actors asking "But what IS my motivation!?" and that's not a good look.

[@justtmw]

Yeah, it's the first video on this channel where I really feel like critique was done in bad faith

[@shibeking1809]

You’re thinking too much into it, it’s just his opinion, no need to get butt hurt over it lol

[@StrayPitboss]

@@shibeking1809 the lad was so buttmad that he made the imagined point a focus of his video essay. You're talking to the wrong rando.

[@Healnavi]

Most of the story discussion is about things the fandom says instead of what's in the game.

[@shibeking1809]

@@Healnavi that’s nowhere near true. The fandom acts like p2 is perfect and has a perfect story. People just can’t take any criticism of it.

[@Aurinor]

People are saying P2 duology have best story because story in those games feels way more coherent, in a way what it isn’t obstructed by filler of ”social-life” like all subsequent games what have it’s story basically segmented in small chunks with social life in between. And I am kinda agreeing with that sentiment. Persona 1 as well as 2 duology have way less bloat without social life segments, and thus it just feels better for comprehension of the main story, even though it all just subjective matters🤷 Also yeah, I am UNIRONICALLY love a lot of things about gameplay of 2 duology. Like, being able to give your party members different Personas. And then there’s fusion spells for example. They incentivize you to actually seek various synergies between different personas and build your team accordingly, which is way more thoughtful team-building than it is in modern Persona games where your party members are limited to just one Persona and instead of making your team unique you just stuffing MC with Personas of various usefulness.. Also demon negotiations in P2 duology are simply THE best they ever was in the entirety of Megaten. Why? Because not only they have less random in them usually, but also in P2 you don’t JUST negotiate with demons, but also show countless interactions of your party members. Yes, all those combinations of different characters acts makes it more complex, yet once you find right combination you can just spam it and there is usually almost no random unless demons asking questions. In my opinion P2 gameplay is held back mostly because of reworked ”fusion” system, what is.. not a fusion anymore, but a necessity to farm countless tarot cards by negotiating with demons.. Which is just boring and adds nothing but more grind to the game. But overall? I believe that gameplay of P2 duology is not even slightly as bad as people make it out to be. Yes, I’ll gladly die on that hill🤷

[@backupschmliff1156]

People calling Hashino trilogy stories "filler" and missing the entire point of them supposed to be your life. It's so crazy. I can understand the criticism with P3, but P4 improved it and P5 perfected it. P5 has like zero filler. Everything is paced phenomenally. Unless you speedrun the game between each climax point and don't take your time to talk to people and miss out on the added story elements via NPCs. The point of them is supposed to have a level of mundanity.

[@aaronrobison7498]

Just finished watching ur review on Persona 1 this morning. The release of this video could not have been timed better, Thx

[@ncrever8006]

Superb use of the Ghost Trick Soundtrack.

[@livingdoubt54]

i could not agree with a lot of points made in this video. however i do appreciate how you went in depth for your reasonings for your opinions rather than just being like "this thing bad bc i said so"

[@ktli5648]

Something that you didn't mentioning in the gameplay section outside of a brief remark were the dungeons in the game - imo they felt worse to go through than P1 PSP. They're just so spacious that you run into way more random encounters than you would normally, because you're trying to find a narrower path and you run over more squares doing so. A lot of the gimmicks in the later P2 dungeons make you bactrack quite a bit which makes the frequent encounter issue worse. In P1 PSP you're running through narrow 1 square wide corridors pretty quickly. Also, the minimap moves smoothly when moving+turning, the P2 one is choppier - but that's minor As for the combat defense spamming is very exploitable, so I just don't use it by inputting all commands at the start of a turn and not changing them no matter what happens until the turn is over. That way it plays like P3FES and the Q games

[@Comrade_Hee-Ho]

I love Persona 2, but honestly I agree with what you've said about the gameplay, it's just not good and it really lacks a lot of elements

[@unknownuser494]

Honestly imo P2 gameplay would be better if they try to improve the p1 grid system type combat rather than revamping the combat system.

[@ShadowoftheMask]

Ulala "being too old" is the traditional Japanese "if woman isn't married by age of 25, they are past marriage age" thing/trope you see in lot of media (and is thankfully becoming more of thing of the past even if christmas cake jokes still exist).

[@felman87]

Aww yiss! New bubbletea! and on Persona 2.

[@treesnip5667]

My Persona 2 experience is playing Innocent Sin for a couple of hours, hating every minute of it, then deciding to watch all of the cutscenes for both games on KZbin. I ended up loving the story but man actually playing the game was miserable. I've heard Eternal Punishment has better gameplay, I'm sure that's true, but I was in no rush to try it out after Innocent Sin. I don't like begging for remakes but Persona 2 would really benefit from one.

[@starmaker75]

Seriously for me, the story and most of the characters were the things that keep me going and the gameplay feels like a chore you have to do and it's a boring chore. With persona 3-5, I have both fun with gameplay and story/writing. As you said the persona 2 duology needs a remake

[@absoutezeo2126]

"I need a remake because I don't want to engage with the content." Fixed that for you.

[@KatsuyaTheFuuk]

Innocent Sin's boss battle theme good im right and ur wronggg! GRAHHHH! But fr good video. I do think the amount people gas these games up in a way that's putting the others down is just damaging to the very games they're gassing up

[@KatsuyaTheFuuk]

Especially when like you said, a lot of the points people use to put the others down can very easily apply to Persona 2 as well. It's annoying

[@Sharff514]

I used to really care about objectivity and subjectivity. “This game is l bad and this one’s good, regardless of opinion”. But eventually I just stopped caring about that, because it isn’t fun for me to think like that. Whats fun is playing the game, seeing whatever it’s trying to be, and forming thoughts on it. It’s that part of art that can make it so impactful to me. Introspection, retrospection, criticism, analysis, even creation, that stuff is only interesting to me because of the art value, not the objectivity of it, at least not entirely. I’m there for the opinion.

[@Mr.Vanderbilt]

Wow a new Bubbletea video. I sure hope he doesnt change the video's title and thumbnail when people give him a wittle pushback for having an opinion

[@Hyp3rSonic]

YES!!! Im glad more people are talking about this!!!

[@shinji2898]

I honestly don’t blame him when you got people assuming he flat out hates a game because they refuse to watch a video lol

[@coffee9658]

@@Hyp3rSonicwait when did this happen before?

[@MajoraLaine]

@@coffee9658 It happened with his Persona 3 Reload video. I can't remember what it was, but it got changed to what it is now.

[@TheDGBgamers]

Fully agree, I really don't get the love for Jun. He's barely a character in either game. Him and Yukino were easily my least favourites from the parties in the duology. (Ulala is saved by her character design and charming dialogue)

[@vjoe5389]

The reason Jun is so popular basically boils down to the simple fact that he’s one of the few legitimately canon LGBT+ reps in the entire Persona series (to which Persona has a pretty high LGBT+ fanbase compared to many other game franchises). Along with that fact you also have to take into account that Persona has a pretty sizable female player base and in a franchise with mostly male protagonists you’re inevitably going to get a mix of fujoshi’s and straight girls trying to self insert as the male protagonist. Persona doesn’t have a lot of LGBT+ reps so when one is added they tend to stand out. To my knowledge, the only characters who are definitively LGBT+ are Tatsuya, Jun, Elizabeth, Aigis, Ryoji, and Kotone. Among this list of characters, Jun is the only strictly gay character while everyone else is bi (Tatsuya can choose to romance Lisa, Maya, and Jun. Elizabeth has feelings for both Makoto and Kotone and you can choose to romance her in both routes. Aigis has a major crush on both Makoto and Kotone and you have the option to romance her. Ryoji outright states that if Kotone were a guy he’d still love her and he tells Makoto that he wants to be more than a friend to him in P3R. Kotone can romance Akihiko, Ken, Shinjiro, Ryoji, Theodore, Elizabeth, and Aigis) In a game series that’s well known for its characters, that’s a low percentage of LGBT+ reps in a game series that has a high percentage of LGBT+ players compared to the average game franchise. While I think it’s incredibly stupid to fanboy/fangirl over a character just because of one simple/minor trait, I don’t exactly blame people for going crazy over an openly LGBT+ rep in a game series that tends to not include them or only ever hints to it without outright stating it.

[@BigKlingy]

Now I really need to play these games. (I technically own IS on PS TV, I just need to make space for it) It always sucks when a work is only praised by way of bashing something else. "Play Persona 2, it's not like the ANIME TRASH that is modern Persona!" I was almost turned off Paper Mario Thousand Year Door because its praise felt similar. I feel like a lot of these "takes" come from people who haven't really played these games. Reminds me a little of Tear Ring Saga, a niche "legally distinct Fire Emblem" by Fire Emblem's original creator, held up as this perfect gem of what the series could be by purists... and imo I don't think it's even that good. And yeah, it feels like a definite double standard when people will bash later Persona characters but praise these, who fall into a lot of the same pitfalls. A lot of these sound like interesting concepts (and I LOVE how Eternal Punishment forms a party out of NPCs from Innocent Sin) but their arcs either go from 0 to 1000 or drop off. And the female characters thing... I guess how I'd describe it is, I don't have a problem with a female character whose major arc is a romantic subplot with a man. Heck, that's Chidori in Persona 3, and nearly everyone loves her. The problem is when that's EVERY FEMALE CHARACTER IN THE STORY. (A lot of people accuse Fire Emblem Echoes of this, too) And oh man, the crazy fire guy sounds like some of my least favourite Fire Emblem villains too. I always hate it when they try to build up a major villain, they're important to the protag's story... and they die immediately after one fight. Also, I've heard people nowadays have criticized King Leo for being a bad sterotype of the mentally ill, and one of the game's writers has admitted to disagreeing with certain Japanese metal health laws. I also feel like Persona fans over-hype Nyarlanthotep, acting like he's the over-arching villain of the whole series when he's kind of just a one-game deal like Izanami or Yaldabaoth. The "daddy issues" angle to the plot is interesting though. Anyway, hope I don't sound too bashing here, especially since I haven't played these games yet. One day, I'll see how I feel about them.

[@starmaker75]

"Play Persona 2, it's not like the ANIME TRASH that is modern Persona!" Bro, persona 2 is still anime and the like, it just a different. Again it annoying for people accuse a entry in a series for being too anime, despite the series being anime for in all in it series. Sure it one to said you prefer these type of anime stuff then that, but it gets annoying for anything they don't like as anime(looks like some people are still in that weird 2000s thinking).

[@unknownuser494]

IS is pretty damn anime compared to P1 and atlus also toned down anime elements in EP.

[@zeroskaterz92]

Literally no one claimed P2 isn't anime. You just came up with that bs to push your narrative. lmao You clearly don't know wtf you're talking about and clearly have comprehension issue while not understanding the vast genre of anime. When people talked about newer Persona games being more anime than its predecessor, they talked about the abundance generic trope being used. Literally three Persona games back to back featured a mascot character with amnesia plot convenience simply just because. An outsider gary stu MC with the most power than the rest of the casts. A gimmicky item to summon Persona, etc.

[@nathanvertil7355]

I haven't played either IS or EP, but I resonate with EP more than the first game when it comes to the theme of the game. While I like both casts, it's the atmosphere of the games I enjoy equally. I know, at 30, I would enjoy EP a lot more.

[@WilliamKing-p1k]

This is a great video I understand like 30% of it but still enjoyed it.

[@masteryoraerasante]

My preference for the persona 2 games (well, EP, since I only started IS on an emulator) are more on how -It is a more direct storytelling with no time management, instead the interactions with other characters outside the main story are through visiting them around the city. -Things also happen in the real world and not in a special location or time (the dark hour, tv world, mementos/palaces), giving the threat of possibly affecting the population - and in fact the population is directly involved. -You can affect the world using the same methods the villains do meaning if you pay attention and nudge things right you can unlock special things, like rumors that can bring special equipment to the stores or extra personas, all just to help your side. -And the whole cast can change personas, not just the protagonist, although there is a compatibility system. I don't like how you get the materials for more personas, though. The conversation system always felt... interesting but too confusing. But again, been years since I did played it.

[@axellycan5070]

This feels like a rebuttal to a bunch of arguments I've never heard, and also they aren't presented. Do you have interesting quotes or articles to point to of people making the arguments you're rallying against the whole time? It makes the tone feel hostile and combative from the start. Rumors and history and epistemology are also very tied up in real life events, and if you're unfamiliar with how externally goofy the rise fascism and the power of rumors can be in how they craft peoples' sense of reality, then you're extremely unprepared for any current understanding of american politics either.

[@ye7005]

I've been waiting for this!

[@Makoto_yuki_irl]

The fact that p2 is actually the first persona game I’ve finished

[@mitsuruhype]

As a P2 Duology glazer, I hate when people create double standards by being like "Ann Sucks" or "Rise Sucks" and then go "Lisa the GOAT", because honestly I think Lisa fucking sucks... because she does. Ann is meh at her worst moments and actually really fucking good at her best, despite the writers being way too horny for her for no reason, where Lisa genuinely just gets on my nerves outside of a small handful of cutscenes, and I fucking rag on Lisa for the same reasons I rag on Rise: "Get off my dick ma'am, I'm gay". Which is a nice segue for the gay rep topic with Jun. Yeah he's the best gay rep in Persona... and that's not saying much. This series just doesn't have a good history with portraying genuinely good gay male characters. Kanji's Shadow is fine because he's intended to be a stereotype cranked to 11 to really hammer home the fact that Kanji is Questioning, concerned and confused and every P4 shadow is some weird stereotype or facet done the same way. He's not good rep, yet that isn't Shadow Kanji's role in the story in the first place and I'll accept that as "Fine whatever" gay rep. Every other form of actual homosexual male rep in the franchise on the other hand is downright rancid outside of those 2, and don't get me started on how much I still want to beat the shit out of Yosuke for how homophobic that man gets for no reason at times in P4. Persona as a whole franchise just has never had a good history with handling gay men SPECIFICALLY and by just making a soft fanservice-style optional yaoi choice out of the guy who does basically nothing and likes flowers, they did well for the franchise's bar which is currently residing somewhere lower than hell. The concept of being a gay man in Persona as a whole is just almost always used as both a joke and as something genuinely terrifying like the writers genuinely believe in that "Boys Beware" PSA. Jun as gay rep does nothing, and that's still somehow one of the best gay reps in the franchise. It's not actually good gay rep, but it's better than the 2 men that are implied to SA Ryuji before they made it SLIGHTLY less homophobic(Still homophobic though) in Royal. These are honestly the only 2 things I'M going to touch on since those are the only 2 things I can say from experience on my end. Every point you made is genuinely valid and people do blindly just parrot these games as the best in the franchise(Which they're right, I'm biased, I said it earlier) without either highlighting their flaws properly or actually providing good reason for their opinion. Honestly, plenty of people that say that P2 is the best haven't even played the games themselves and have watched Let's Plays of them instead. It's damn disappointing to just see people blindly follow the words of others with no care of actually bothering to play the games themselves and form their own opinions, and I'm actually grateful that you did bother to do that... And yes, the battle system sucks straight ass.

[@BigKlingy]

You summed up Shadow Kanji pretty well. It's why I'm personally a little concerned for a Persona 4 remake, because they'll almost certainly want to alter some of Kanji and Naoto's arcs (and don't get me wrong, there's a lot of problematic stuff in both) and I'm not sure how you'd balance smoothing out the rough parts while still keeping the original spirit. Shadow Kanji literally IS an offensive gay sterotype in physical form. The late-game reveal that the Midnight Channel is also influenced by everyone who watches it goes some way to explaining it: Kanji's questioning and internalized homophobia combined with the homophobia of the town and the time period are what makes him that way. And as much as I want to have hope for future representation, I actually think it's kind of dumb that P3Re's intro emphasizes a pride badge on someone's backpack but has literally no significant LGBT representation outside MAYBE Ryoji if you squint. (And he's not a romance option) It's a cursory "we totally care, guys" nod that means nothing.

[@waleedtheXIVth]

2:00 ohhh who is that handsome, intelligent and based fella

[@Spenfen]

You bring up a really good point - the gameplay in Persona 2 feels like a formality, and yet it's *still the vast majority of what you spend your time doing* ...and, as a result, the vast majority of the game feels like a formality I think this is why I've always really struggled to get into Persona 2 despite being intrigued by the story

[@NeoGeo2006]

I recently downloaded an english patch for the ps1 release of the game and yet, I have no problems with the game in terms of story or plot. Especially with the plot with Lisa and her being the victim of xenophobia in the game’s story.

[@maritessa]

As a lesbian who also had the dream of getting married and having kids when I was in HS, I headcanon Lisa as a lesbian and that's also why she's so obsessed with Tatsuya.

[@SerbianSpark19]

How tatsuya is male i mean he looks kinda like a girl with that hair

[@maritessa]

I interpret it like Tatsuya is her pseudocrush because she has comphet. Her shadow tells her that she likes Tatsuya because of the attention it gets her. To me that means she likes that she can hide the fact that she likes women lmao and Tatsuya is an easy choice because he's seen as cool and reliable by everyone in the school.

[@SerbianSpark19]

@@maritessa whats comphet

[@maritessa]

@@SerbianSpark19 compulsory heterosexuality

[@SerbianSpark19]

@@maritessa so in a closet? Idk lgbt terminology

[@onthedre]

Not going to lie at 23:00 when you started explaining that story I got hooked. I have to play this game.

[@dimensionalnemesis8636]

Ahh yes exactly why i love Nam's Compendium Nam: "So you guys called me Biased, nonsense i am never even a hint of Biased, also i gave Final Fantasy X and Kingdom Hearts 2 the least shit and lov- hey why are you looking at me like that!?"

[@kira64xyz]

my biggest barrier to Persona 2 is the gameplay, it puts me to sleep I just can’t bring myself to finish it, I’ve been trying since 2018

[@starmaker75]

Seriously the press turn system really did help the megmai tensei series(persona and smt)

[@МихаилЧернега-й1у]

@@starmaker75completely different to me, i adore the persona 1-2 gameplay. Complex Dungeon crawling, skill zones, and party members can get different personas ) 3 and 4 gameplay was so monotone and boring with its poor 3d. (5th palaces are very good though). But of course my most big problem is social elements - thats just too many of it, I want to play game, fuse demons, read the great story. But instead i spending hours for fishing, reading etc.

[@Laurcus]

@@МихаилЧернега-й1у My biggest issue with P2's gameplay is that it's just so incredibly easy. It's by far the easiest game in the entire Megami Tensei franchise. Persona 1 is almost as easy except for the fact that there's random difficulty spikes due to some enemies just having medium/heavy damage spells early game for no reason. But even that is pretty paper thin as far as difficulty goes. I think that's what people mean when they say the gameplay puts them to sleep. You can genuinely just hit auto battle and blast your way through 99% of fights even on hard mode.

[@МихаилЧернега-й1у]

@@Laurcus it can be true, but i think thats all megaten games issue, if you play one or two of them, you just beat them on every difficulty. Espessially modern games with skills inheritance. Shit, in SMT 5 or Persona 4g you can create a demon with immunity to everything exept allmighty ( But I personally don’t think it’s big issues. Demon design is as solid as it was in 1991, and demon conversations (another plus p1/p2 compare to p3/p4) is hilarious as ever.

[@pmintertek]

​@@Laurcus I think it's not just because it's easy but also how incredibly slow it is. As easy as P5 Royal, nobody complains about it there because you can deal with enemies within few seconds. In P2 on the other hand you need a minute between turns even with skipped animations. And because they are so easy you are just waiting 75% of time in battles instead of thinking. Add on top of it random encounters meaning you can't just walk around them and you get a game where you can stare 50% of time in the ceiling without any difference in amount of time you played.

[@DreamlessSleepwalker]

I'm in my early twenties and had seen game magazines when I was a kid, played PS2 and gamecube games, related to (almost) all of your stories, etc.

[@analogman6610]

its funny i first heard about persona 2 not cause it was the adult game but more for how weird it was. Specifically that whole Furher thing they did when localizing it XD

[@hitoshura8586]

I love p2 so much i’m all for criticizing it. Nice video 👍🏼

[@BubblegumPatty]

I completely agree on the gameplay take, the sort of Always Autobattle like battle system is not engaging at all , and sometimes feels more clunky then the more traditional turn based systems of older Megaten games. Sole exception is the ability to change orders mid-turn in case things suddenly go off the rails or something, which is nice.

[@realmonster6235]

Good video as usual. I will say, as someone with 0 stake in the persona 2 good or bad debate. This video read more to me like a rebuttal or response when compared to the video you made on the first game. I dont recall any talk about the dungeon exploration or how the overworld works here. And while your points and complaints seemed fair. I didnt feel i had much understanding coming out of the video for why you liked Eternal Punishment so much more. Aside from some character and story elements. I also feel i didnt come out of the video with nearly as good a grasp on the games as i got eith your video on the OG. Maybe i missed something though. I usually watch your long persona videos a couple times so maybe ill pick up on something i didnt quite tune in enough too. Either way i appreciate your content and work!

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Great video! 👍

[@gnub3360]

Persona 5 is an awesome game. I played og when it dropped and currently playing royal. I'd recommend anyone unfamiliar with the series play it first. But it dosen't 'hit' like og SMT/persona. And yes this is part of an elaborate hate campaign against Morgana. Even one of my favorite voice actresses couldn't make me like that character. I find myself hitting the skip button waaay to much.

[@ddrxmanpkmaster4988]

Finally someone's making a video on P2. I'm tired of this community only using this game as a weapon to shit on modern Persona games, mainly P5. All you'll ever hear from Persona fans is "P2 is the best game in the franchise because story and its super underrated, therefore it's better than modern Persona games" They NEVER bring up its gameplay

[@Aspiaan]

I love the daddy issues comment. I always that the theme was about generational curses in an abstract way. With the daddy issues of the main cast being a playful jab at the saying "The sins of the father". Like how the consequences of IS follow into the new timeline of EP.

[@JP2427]

Wake up babe, peak dropped

[@WillowFaded]

If it doesn’t have Tony, then I ain’t playing

[@ericm215]

This is a rare title where the grown up character look more stylized😮

[@astrea555]

I played 2 back when 3 was new, and while I couldn't beat the PSX version I still thought it was a better game than 3 easily. I need to revisit it again but yeah.

[@Istreakilaz]

*motorcycle noises*

[@Nobody_247]

Nyarly intro??

[@markel9000]

I will add to the music being good with one other thing I love. The music difference sort reflect the characters your playing. As Tatsuya, the overworld/ending credits (basically the same song with vocals) has an indie pop sort of vibe which makes sense for the kind of teenage angst character he is. Maya’s is rnb and foreign suiting her older hip sensibilities. Aside from that they have different vibes or thoughts on places like club zodiac being more oppressive to Tatsuya who’s a teen that hasn’t been in a club versus the slightly more lax version Maya has who would have more experience with a club scene or even a sketchy place given her and and work. Another difference is Mt. Katatsumuri which has melody of the overworld in IS that is sentimental and sad given the context to that timelines cast. But in EP, it’s got a more generic (not as in bad but as in lacking story context) theme that reflects that cast not having the important even occur and thus no memory or mood association for that Maya. I know in some cases the difference in music is less thematic but I thought it was a really neat concept. You really only see it in P3p but there it’s a bit less thematic and more literal and also a bit more overt.

[@ogopogoagogo]

1:14:38 This sounds like slower verison of that Techno Jellyfish song from Spongebob.

[@PeytonHislop]

i like the original soundtrack way more than the remixed original hits way harder

[@Dopamiin3]

Persona 2 fans never mentioning the gameplay 👀

[@Hyp3rSonic]

LMFAO

[@isidorodaviddoro1920]

Dude persona was always a story based jrpg not a Gameplay focused One,hell even persona 5 has a okay Gameplay at best nothing out of this world

[@justtmw]

@@isidorodaviddoro1920 a story based game where you fight enemies and explore dungeons for like 70% of your playtime, sure

[@kostasspirou1010]

@@isidorodaviddoro1920 idk to me p3, p4 and p5 all have great gameplay, p1 and p2 are just kinda outdated and thats why many fans want remakes

[@waypastcute]

Something something play the PlayStation 1 version of Innocent Sin

[@mbe102]

Ahh dang... @3:04, guess I'll come back in a couple of years :(.

[@brademix]

Ts sounds like the Light Yagami laugh 1:13

[@shinji2898]

I’m half a hour in and I gotta say that this is another pretty good video, despite it having aspects (like 34:40) that slightly push my sanity to its breaking point :)))) (This is a joke I’m not gonna have a breakdown over different persona opinions) Edit: Alright, I finished watching it and while I do apologize for basically *not* listening to you at the start, I did enjoy watching this video a lot. I haven’t really encountered anyone glazing up these games as hard as some have, but i did notice how so many people seem to hype these up so hard because of the inclusion of adult characters, especially in EP. And while I get why, I always found it to be a weird complaint because I can still easily relate to the characters of 3, despite playing that while in my first year of college with p3 and even in my third year with p3RE. And even then, I feel the games have shown it’s possible to have great adult characters without needing them to be the protagonist. Another thing I’m glad to see discussed is Jun, because even as someone who can sort of get it, I almost just find it sad to see people basically hype up the equivalent of milquetoast character just because of him effectively being yaoi fan service. I get the portrayal of LGBT shit in later games hadn’t sit well with certain people, but idk, as a BI dude it’s hard for me to think that these people have to have better standards than settling for a relationship that requires headcannon and side material to really shine. Aside from that though, I don’t really think this video will deter me from trying p2 out, just like with your p1 video. Even if they aren’t perfect to you, I still wanna see if I end up loving or at least enjoying them somehow.

[@leosee-through6147]

The gameplay might suck. The characters might be of questionable quality. The story might be all over the place. However, if its an Atlus game it will always have banger music

[@insertnamehere658]

Since you've talked quite a lot about P5/P5R when talking about the other games, do you ever plan to do a full on review of it?

[@NotThatJonesShow]

Persona 2 has a good story but only if you put the 2 halfs together and figure out how it all ties together but the majority of players in the west either only played eternal punishment when it realesed on PS1 or only player Innocent Sin when it releases on PSP and when you look at them stand alone they make almost no fucking sense at all and I feel there's a lot of people perpetuating the P2 has an amazing story and your favorite game doesn't because they miss the overtly dark nature of the game and just elect to ignore the darker aspects of the newer games

[@myyoutubeaccount4167]

I’m not going to watch this any time soon because of spoilers, but I have a big question for any that comes across this comment. Is the PS3 version of P2EP good?

[@kitkatgmr]

Marking my spot 15:23

[@ezireblueflame5176]

I just finished watching his Persona 1 review wtf

[@FessCloud]

It's not a Persona 2's fans job to sell a game.

[@ShadowoftheMask]

Hmm, dunno if P3Reload opening was exactly ruined by being unnecessarely wordy. Well anyway, people like to remove all nuance from anything, but I think there is reason why adult casts appeals to folks. Like Project Moon games' cast being mostly in range of 20-40 feels refreshing if you have played mostly games that have teen cast, because the series you have played haven't grown up with you. And so it feels more relatable when you are older and characters in similar age range portray similar emotions. Anyway, I think P2 are both made for teens tbh, like even that article quoted for origin of rumor idea comments on the target audience. But then again I'm kind of opinion that Atlus' is primarely entertainment company with focus on young adults and teenagers in general and not some sort of grand social commentator with deep themes wanting to educate folks. But yeah, I feel like there is habit of going into tangents and nitpicking in this video. I haven't played P2 and don't have strong opinion besides "some details sound cool", so that's mostly feedback on me not being fully convinced by opinions here and how they are presented. I think I've heard about Innocent Sin being worse of two games before yeah, so I buy that, but the video being opinion piece doesn't really change reason that there is lot of what sounds like making strawmen out of what annoying fans say. Like, video starts with "this is just me expressing my opinion, I'm not trying to convince anyone's mind" and commenting on how lot of P2 fans compare game to other games, then lot of the video is arguing with what P2 fans supposedly say and why said comparisons are incorrect, even if "atlus has done exact same thing since P2" is a fair observation imo(same about claiming game from 90s/early 2000s has better written female characters). Its just makes me confused of whether "point" was to express opinion on the game or refute "popular persona fan common knowledge" hot takes. Well anyhoo, I feel like reason why lot of fans seem to want either remake of P2 or Persona sequel that touches in similar themes is that they explicitly want game that makes better use of concepts they liked from P2, or wanting game that focuses on type of writing you see with adult characters in P3-5. Dunno if that's the actual case though for most of the fans (probably not for the obnoxious vocal minority though)

[@OtakuNewsSource]

It's refreshing to hear someone be critical of Persona 2, esp highlighting that many things people put P3 - P5 down for are still done in P2. I played Innocent Sin for the first time this year and enjoyed the story and characters (but not very much the gameplay), but I honestly feel that P3 and P5R have the better overall stories. P2IS story is insane, yes, but I think BubbleTea makes a great point about how the story doesn't give enough time to really sit with certain story points before it quickly moves on to the next thing. The story just moves at a very brisk pace with not much time to breath. It's still good stuff, but it can be a bit too much at times.

[@philmatibaggg9283]

Real ones remember Persona 2 is Painfully Underwhelming..

[@tonin7228]

the best way to play P2 is with a max tarot card and instant max rank cheat

[@Crunchykills]

Oh hell yea p2 vid lets go

[@mahendrap1960]

seem like he didn't understand anything from persona 2 dualogy

[@Skypatroller_BenCD]

34:11 is this the real dialog of the game?

[@TheRealMakotoYuki419]

The Best Persona And Kingdom Hearts KZbinr Has Arrived..

[@EisenSMT]

My biggest beef with Persona 2 is the gameplay (which is so dreadfully boring it makes me wonder how ANYONE could enjoy it) and the way the story presents itself. Like Bubbletea says, things just kind of happen with no real rhyme or reason. Like a character will randomly posit an idea and suddenly everyone is doing it, like with the smashing of the clocks.

[@Antegggggggggg]

13 views in 42 seconds bro fell on

[@Chelaxim]

Well Mr "funny mustache man" came up with the term the Big Lie. You can just repeatedly say something over and over again and people will accept it as reality.

[@FabioDeMotoca]

Eternal punishment still is the best Persona game.

[@JAMES79HOWLETT]

Persona 2 Innocence sin gameplay is pretty good plot wise it's a waste of time they got you going around spreading rumors Midway to the game I decided to quit and head straight to eternal punishment which is so far looking really good

[@H-MAN45]

15:22 HOLY SHIT THATS ME????

[@kalemuncher9425]

Woah woah woah, you're criticising the games I pretend to like with your experience from having actually played them!?!? That's not how you're supposed to do it!!!!

[@starmaker75]

Persona 2 and persona 3 portable "fans" praising the games they hadn't play

[@pancaek_boi]

I will always remember Persona 2 as the game that had Hitler

[@neslas2336]

i know it's late to ask but what's the music on 22:36 i heard it many time but never found it

[@anthonyjackson9654]

IS fails as a fun game. Batttles are way too slow and the encounter rate kills it.

[@alvarofs131]

2:03 I see what you did there...

[@Blue_kaja]

This is gonna make some noise around the 15 persona 2 fans lol. Jokes aside this video encapsulates perfectly some of the issues i had with the games, mostly Innocent sin, i couldn't exactly wrap my thoughts what was the game even about, until i watched this.

[@Helsfasa]

The music has me feeling nostalgic. It’s so ps1 I can almost hear my boot up noise 😂

[@Bannothegreat]

34:12 Where is that from? 😆

[@Jips907]

This game is the reason i text my friends with this emoji🙋

[@felipefelix8650]

Here we go

[@shadowelii]

YOOOOOO IM HERE EARLY LET’S GOOOOOOOOOOO I AM SEATED !!!!!!!!

[@Ashyson780]

I live for Persona 2 slander