Bufferbloat & Lag - Why Framing Matters

[@BattleNonSense]

► Links: ➜ www.patreon.com/dtaht ➜ www.bufferbloat.net ➜ www.dslreports.com/speedtest ➜ openwrt.org ➜ openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/network/traffic-shaping/sqm

[@Nick-rf7xh]

From which country you come?

[@chimpo131]

You should try and do comparison tests with a few routers to see what implementation works best for bufferbloat with the least bandwidth impact. Im sure people here would be interested to see what cheap vs "gaming" vs small business routers perform like. Ubnt er4/duma os/custom pf sense?

[@bobhumplick4213]

i went to openwrt a couple years ago and still am not sure what link layer adaption to use. i have left it at default and it seems to work well. im on cable. the netgear r6220 can be had on ebay used for about 25 dollars and is a great choice for openwrt. its a hyperthreaded\smt cpu at 1ghz with 128mb ram and i think 128mb flash. both 5ghz and 2.4ghz radio. a wonderful little router. these routers are good for maybe up to 200mb\second. for more you need maybe an arm based router or you can buy an old dell optiplex for 50 bux with an i3 or i5 and a second intel nic and setup the x86 version but its a bit more trouble. that will handle just about anything i also bought a small usb to sata adapter and use a laptop hardrive as a video\music server

[@bobhumplick4213]

i think the reason most companies dont put openwrt on their cheaper routers is becaseu they dont want a 20 dollar router out doing a 200 dollar router. but thats often what happens when you put openwrt on a cheap router lol

[@rossadamdixon]

Have you ever tested a netduma?

[@MarcoBelmonte]

This was great and super beneficial explaining the per framing differences between all the different layer 2 transport technologies. Was so happy to see you partnered with Master Taht and Master Möller! NICE JOB and thank you - I love your channel.

[@davetaht4989]

:blush:

[@swmike]

I was going to email a reference of this excellent video to the bufferbloat mailing lists until I saw at the end that Dave Täht and Sebastian Möller already had cooperated with you on the topic. Excellent. I will keep pointing people to your video for easier understanding of the bufferbloat problem. The only thing I'd like to add is that a medium like DOCSIS where if you are buying let's say 80/20 megabit/s down/up, since it's a shared medium you might not even get these speeds. I had this problem with my DOCSIS provider that I only got 60% of my bw in the evenings because of the local DOCSIS segment being oversubscribed and ran full in the evenings, degrading the performance. This meant the FQ_CODEL shaper in my OpenWrt wasn't shaping enough. The good thing is that a lot of DOCSIS networks at least are not as bufferbloated as for instance slower DSL connections, so hopefully this non-determinism is less of a problem for people. Keep up the great work!

[@BattleNonSense]

_"since it's a shared medium you might not even get these speeds"_ Indeed, even worse, your max bandwidth can change depending on the time of the day. I have a friend who has ~20% less bandwidth in the evening. :(

[@swmike]

@@BattleNonSense Exactly, I wasn't even getting 80% of the speed, I was getting more like 60% of the speed, and this of course was not stable over time (varied over time of day and between different evenings). Fortunately, my provider has already configured their CMTS to not be bufferbloated so even when this was happening, the max bufferbloat I saw was 10-20ms, so it still wasn't a huge problem. Now I have an ETTH (ethernet to the home) connection with a very consistent operator shaper and the access network is never congested, so I can configure my FQ_CODEL very precisely and not lose more than ~10% of my BW.

[@davetaht4989]

@@swmike evenroute has a way out. But bql was the right answer, fixing dsl firmware at least, as free.fr did.

[@davetaht4989]

@@swmike I thought you were cake?

[@swmike]

Dave Taht I was, I swapped to FQ CODEL last week due to some weird problems with CAKE. I’ll send an email to the list about it in a few days when I have more time to diagnose it.

[@oxanexios]

I'm installed OpenWRT on my WR1043ND with SQM and my connection is much better now! A+ on DslReport site.

[@BattleNonSense]

You should find the video quite interesting since you can optimize SQM much further as you are using OpenWRT. :)

[@oxanexios]

@@BattleNonSense Yeah! I added NAS support with SAMBA for my backups! 🥰 You help me a lot for fix my connection, i cant patreon now but i share your vídeos 😉

[@CHAMBERSTRIKE]

bro, will you tell me I have a static IP connected from my local provider and it's connected to my router from their fibre gate way device and I connect my desktop from my router (TpLink) there is no other connection then I run the buffer bloat text and I have +10 ms on my download rest of it are all fine. because of that, I face online calls and gaming problems, can you tell me how to solve it as you did yours thank you.

[@Birnasuc]

Could you make a Escape from Tarkov network analysis after 0.12 patch goes live, please? It's gonna be a huge one.

[@salazar1104]

That's amazing idea.

[@pughpunk]

YES

[@jamiesdivision3742]

Please do this

[@cdoublejj]

Thanks!

[@gopherchucksgamingnstuff2263]

I have just gone through the same issue . Thanks for covering this , My router was using a QAS algorithm and we don't use the TV part of the service. it was capping my bandwidth to preserve for the 4k TV. I had to disable it and it solved my issue.

[@Adamtronik]

wow you are a god! your other video about rivatuner has completely eliminated my stuttering problem with bf5. It would be great if you could make a video about optimising the Nvidia control panel....if it actually makes any difference.

[@DarkEmpire]

and how did you solve this problem?

[@ruds0n895]

@@DarkEmpire 5 if you download rivatuner statistic server, you are able to analysis your FPS to find the best "most stable FPS value for your setup". In a nutshell, you could play BF5 and have moments with 140 FPS but in some situations, you drop to 120 FPS and so on and so forth. With Rivatuner you can lock your FPS to a set value. So let us assume 120 FPS is one of the lowest values you see during your testing and you now lock your BF5 application to this value (120 FPS) you could eliminate the stuttering. Why this is exactly and how it works can be seen in more detail on the battlenonsense video

[@cas_papi]

I have a XR500 wth duma OS. After several of your videos it has helped me get a control over my home network. Especially as sensitive as battlefield is. I’ve owned numerous routers including with the WRT32XB, AC6800, and others.

[@AI-EXREYFOX]

Hello can you help me with configuration I have a xr500 connected directly to a ont

[@Stoney_Eagle]

This over simplified explanation is well done, I usually go for the water methode. What I don't understand is that some of my friends have a 100mbit up/down FTTH connection and they encounter lag like a mofo while only having the ps4 on and one digital TV stream (max 20 mbits). I have set them up the exact same way as I had with that provider, I never had lag playing a game while downloading or uploading in full speed.

[@davetaht4989]

The water video demo about 10? 14 minute in here, is also dang good. www.bufferbloat.net/projects/cerowrt/wiki/Bloat-videos/#stephen-hemminger-s-of-vyatta-bufferbloat-from-a-plumbers-point-of-view-25-march-2013

[@groforoctavioarmasvega3201]

hey battle(non)sense, will you review the latest nvidia drivers? (ultra low latency settingg) on nvidia control panel?

[@aleph1057]

Ah yes I almost forgot about your channel, thanks for reminding me!

[@Dreamtwister2k]

Always the best networking explanations videos made easy to understand. I appreciate your work!

[@eastcoasthandle]

@8:15 what game is that?

[@baueralex12345]

I just want to step in and say that on most ASUS Routers you can install AsusWRT-Merlin. There you can change the amout of overhead of fq_codel :)

[@davetaht4989]

I didn't know the asus implementation could do that! thx!

[@walmaleo]

9 people are playing with a 56K modem :D And again a very informative video...thank you very much for it! Greetings from Graz from an Ex-Osttiroler ;)

[@moder2011]

Welcome back Chris really missed you 😊

[@Richard_GIS]

2:46 I do not have the issue on my edge router X, i do have a 250/50 connection and when sQoM is enabled i still get around 220Mb and not 120Mb

[@gameotic1]

can you make a video how to download, install and setup?

[@TheDirewolf]

Are you still running Untangle or did you switch to OpenWRT?

[@thomasr7129]

Thanks for yet another thorough and good video! :)

[@WorthyOrigin7]

What does it mean if DSL reports doesn’t give me a bufferbloat score? Just stays grey

[@IslamGhonaym]

May I ask pls? I already have 2 Mbit/s internet and I can't get better internet in my country, but that should be enough because online games uses 1 MBit or less. Because I have very low speeds that my online games take half of it I can't manage it and eliminate bufferbloat with bandwidth limiting and SQM if someone for example was surfing the net with internet browser or was watching youtube videos What I need is a better way to manage my network traffic on this very low speed without reducing upload or download speed on my ADSL ISP

[@Overonator]

My router has QOS settings but nothing about CAKE OR FQ-CODEL. How can I tell if the QOS are actually using those traffic shaping algorithms?

[@SerpentDrago]

Google , but in my experience most consumer routers QOS , do not use FQ-Codel or Cake and are trash

[@davetaht4989]

Ask your manufacturer, loudly, and publicly.

[@vladislavkaras491]

Hm... Pretty interesting. I never had such problem, though it is good thing to know, what setuping LAN parties or so... Thanks for informative video! Your analogy was so good!

[@-The-Golden-God-]

It's a shame that we can no longer use that bufferbloat test.

[@RapttorX]

Error from dslreports.com/speedtest : "Your connection appears to be faster than 1 gig, please set the 1+ gig test preference (requires membership)" . Im on 1000/500 connection on a gigabit newtwork adapter. Either the speed test is faulty or i sense some "membership" exploiting in this.

[@user-zu1ix3yq2w]

Lol? What are you talking about.. 1000 mb = 1 gigabit which is essentially the same as "1+"

[@RapttorX]

@@user-zu1ix3yq2w i cap arround 920 mbps with my country servers, no way i get that with the external servers listed by dslreports. And even if i hit exactly 1000mbps somehow thats still not "faster than 1 gig" as they say.

[@user-zu1ix3yq2w]

@@RapttorX Your comment has no effect on the facts I mentioned earlier -- it changes nothing. You pay for a 1 gigabit connection which is essentially the same thing as "1+". You're probably peaking a bit above 1000mbps. And there's the question of if overhead protocol data is included in your speed report or not.

[@user-zu1ix3yq2w]

@@RapttorX In case you wanted other sites to test your bufferbloat.. Can also search KZbin for other bufferbloat videos if you haven't yet. www.bufferbloat.net/projects/ fast.com/#

[@flaws1248]

Can you test the new Low Latency Mode available by the New Nvidia Driver Update? Thank you!

[@groforoctavioarmasvega3201]

^

[@H0don]

^

[@pwn5047]

I do not really understand how this works in relation to the players. Each player makes sure that the network load is low, the game consumes 100-200kb\s, is there a problem even in such conditions?

[@MultiHunterr1]

What about settings on NIC like interrupt moderation, flow control etc. Did they have any impact on latency in game or not and better to leave this default?

[@Malinkadink]

I bought an edgerouter and yeah it fixed bufferbloat but i really cant say i noticed a difference in games (Overwatch). Even with only 200Mbps download i don't encounter massive ping spikes at all, i guess no one in the house abuses all the bandwidth and if they did i'd throttle them to not hog it all. Anyone with 1000 down and 1000 up that has ping spikes because of bufferbloat has got some serious issues.

[@axelfoley5265]

Nice Test! I got a "F" in BufferBloat while the Quality is "A". Download was at +65ms at max. While the Upload was at +660ms at max. I think its time to upgrade my "Speedport W 921V" from 2013. F in Chat >.

[@amcrt]

9:12 I watched my discord when I heard the notification sound lol

[@RedFenceAnime]

@@Chickenburger-2 You should listen again with headphones on.

[@pascalwiery7129]

Mr Diese there is a discord notification sound in the video. I even heard it watching on my phone without good headphones or so.

[@willj3145]

So if I was to just hook my pc directly to my modem (so router is totally disconnected) would I then get zero bufferbloat (and an A+ rating)?

[@bobhumplick4213]

no unfortenately not. the problem isnt that you have too many things on the modem, its that the modem was setup to make the isp happy and not the customer. its made to never drop a packet ever, and cram it in nice cozy ques (buffers) and wait in line. how the tcp protocol was supposed to be implemented was that the second there is any hold up a packet gets thrown in the trash, the sender notices and slows things down. then next go round if no lost packets they turn up the speed just a tiny notch till they lose another packet. this is called a feedback loop and is a powerful and even naturally occuring (biology) mechanism for regulation. its works incredibly well ....when you let it. but it also means discarded packets. and that means slighlty less data carried. so isp's dont want it. docsis 3.1 is supposed to take care of bloat but i doubt it will. and thats if isp's ever start using 3.1

[@Max72095]

thank you for your service

[@MichaelSamaan123]

Hey battlenonsense, please make a video to check which is better, playing a game on low settings or playing a game on ultra settings? Does that affect information sent and recieved from server?

[@Limeayy]

I'm curious, anyone explain whats the true PPO for fiber optics? it says 44 then i see other articles that say 0.

[@KleskReaver]

I have an Asus RT-AC88U router with "Adaptive QoS" but there are 3 settings for the "Queue Discipline" which are "sfq", "codel" and "fq_codel" which one should i use?

[@chrismallia29]

fq_code

[@Honeypot-x9s]

I have discovered my bufferbloat isn’t caused by my end. My ISP seems to be the issue. Let me explain. I have Comcast, which is Cable internet only thing available here that isn’t trash. I have my own network gear never giving me trouble.. however I noticed in last 6 months ping spikes been horrible and I did the dslreports test and had near 2000ms spike.. I removed my router and switches from my network and tapped straight into my modem and got the same ping spikes, it is my own modem I purchased so got another from amazon one with many more channels and speed than I need figuring more maybe better since won’t be pushing its resources to the limit... didn’t change anything.. still getting horrendous ping spikes. Removed my computer and used one of my netbooks with a Linux distro (forget which but very light weight and used it for net diagnostics before cuz it doesn’t spam the network) and sure enough same lag spikes. Contacted support from my ISP they sent a tech out who did normal testing found no real issues on my end but out of curiosity wired up one of their own modems normally rented out..lag spikes dropped significantly but still failing grade of F. Both of us were puzzled how gone from 1800ms ping spikes down to 600ms ping spikes. He removed that box from network and concluded that Comcast most be bloating the data somehow and their own boxes are filtering it out better. Theory is that Comcast is slightly desyncing things in line or bloating data a bit and punishing everyone but mostly people not renting out their hardware by causing slightly additional load or that some hub my entire neighborhood is wired into that is stupid.

[@MightyGregu]

meehhhe Of You I have Comcast as well and have always suspected something like this going on. Had the tech make a visit and ping my lines just as you. I can’t wait until we get another option that like you said isn’t trash, ie fiber, but we’ve been seemingly waiting forever for that pipe dream here in the states.

[@Honeypot-x9s]

@@MightyGregu irony is if i move just across the street i could have verizon fios. the issue is exclusivity is very much still a thing even though been fought and shot down legal standpoint they dont care, paying out the fines to FTC is like cleaning their pockets of pocket lint to them.. they just dont care. i reported it and no... made no differance. verizon fios tech has admitted to exclusivity rights, i was talking with him when he was wiring stuff up on ladder and he admitted full on comcast is blocking fios from entering this market and apparently this road is the boundary line was drawn.. one side of the road has fiber option options, 2 of them, several cable options and local collective options which are cheap and people are happy with and dsl (upwards of 25/25 connection)... and super high speed wireless connection options (upto 200mb/sec symmetrical).. but on this side of the street i have comcast, 2 DSL options with max speed of 3mb/sec), and wireless suddenly has max option of 15/15 mb/sec..

[@davetaht4989]

see badmodems.com

[@davetaht4989]

I too have comcast and have contracted with them several times. The docsis mode and wash mode are in cake for that reason.... They do, sometimes, oversubscribe their bandwidth. But see if your modem is on . the badmodems list, and regardless, upgrade to docsis 3.1 one when you can.

[@Honeypot-x9s]

@@davetaht4989 im on docsis 3.1 and 32 x16 channel modem which said to work on comcast/xfinity and does. trying to ask comcast/xfinity directly for a list of good modems is like pulling teeth, they seem to sudden not speak english or something and try to sell you on $13/month rental boxes.

[@Fragnar13]

I have starlink internet, would this help me? When I try to do the linked speed test it cancels the test bc it says my speed is too fast for satellite....even though it is lol

[@DotorGac]

Doesn't seem like I have any of these options with Sagemcom F@ST 5280 :( -- it also looks like I cannot use openwrt in it, unless I am looking at this incorrectly. Is the only advice to upgrade the route?

[@Rappoltt]

Is there a way to calculate the theoretical max throughput of a router using FQ-CoDel or CAKE? If there isn't a direct method, what's the ratio that CAKE can process vs FQ-CoDel? I've heard CAKE is more efficient, which could mean higher throughput. If the EdgeRouter X does 200Mbps with a dual core CPU running at 880MHz using FQ-CoDel, would it be reasonable to expect to a 1400MHz quad core to run FQ-CoDel at roughly 600Mbps? Or does the underlying architecture or other hardware change the results too much for any of this to be a reliable method, even for rough calculations? I hope you could make a video that either details the method to calculate or briefly explains why it can't be done to dissuade people from hunting for a way to do so!

[@Lemonpinesol]

@Battle(non)sense would love to see a video on peaker's advantage in games. Why ping does or doesn't affect this, server tick rate, etc..

[@mohitrahaman]

Dslreports bufferbloat meter does not work on my PC or any device here. Any alternatives?

[@BattleNonSense]

I suppose you tried a different browser and cleared the cache? I recently had the issue where the test did not create a rating, but the meter at least showed the ping spikes which is all the info you need. :)

[@mohitrahaman]

@@BattleNonSenseIt only appears intermittently at the beginning of test with only +1ms bufferbloat. I think my config is rigged smh, I have to look it up.

[@davetaht4989]

For a professional network analysis tool, try flent, from flent.org. The specific test we use most often is called "rrul", of which many, many examples exist across the intertubes.

[@AvocadoBondage]

@@davetaht4989 Dude were testing bufferbloat, not hacking the mainframe. Please dont link some complex software so people can test whether or not their internet is good for gaming

[@davetaht4989]

@@AvocadoBondage I'd rather teach people how to fish, than just feed them bread.

[@LokiFM]

I'm confused, I never have issues in games... but according to the DSLreports website I have an F for bufferbloat and it pretends it gets 1500ms+ ping?

[@mm-rw3hi]

Dsl reports doesnt pretend having 1500ping it shows you what would happen if your connection was maxed out,your routers priorization screwed up (that is why its important to choose the right connection type ) If you are the obly one doing anything on your connection /or you got good speeds you might not always face issues like that but you have certainly already face bufferbloat

[@LokiFM]

@@mm-rw3hi Ok so in otherwords I just have to make sure that people on my network don't download stuff at 1GB/s+. I mean I can live with that.

[@Nyunyun]

The Edgerouter X does around 250mbit/s with sqm enabled, I just tested it on my 1gbit/s connection. Though I gotta admit, that's either upload or download, not both simultaneously. For 250mbit/s or higher I'd say to get at least an Edgerouter 4 or better, the ER6. This one goes up to 1gbit without problems, at least from what I know. (Problem with the Edgerouter X is, while in Theory it can do 1gbit, it is only 500up and down simultaneously and only with HW-Offload enabled, which gets disabled as soon as you're using sqm)

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Can they just be pulled behind a cable router or does it require something else?

[@matthewh940]

Old video, but my ER4 will only do 300-400mbps with SQM enabled.

[@edhunterbg]

Any recommendation for mikrotik routers? (which queue kind is preffered?)

[@EpikasJones]

Like maybe a year ago dslreports bufferbloat stopped working for me and every time it just appears for a split sec and its gone(even without adblockers, changing US-state and changing ISP) and the results show a dash, any idea why?

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

If I limit bandwith for the browser I get the usual bad rating but if I let it fly freely there is the dash

[@Chris-yl3gu]

I have strange results when testing my connection. When testing on DSL reports my bufferbloat results are B or C, Quality is A+ but when connecting via Surfshark VPN to closest server (Frankfurt) results are much better, at least for bufferbloat. Bufferbloat is A, quality is A too. Now, i am not really sure should i use VPN to play online games because of better bufferbloat results with VPN. My internet speeds are 1000 mbit/s download, 60 mbit/s upload. Ping is usually very low on Frankfurt servers (11-14ms). Upload speeds are also pretty much same with or without VPN. Only download speeds drops from 950 mbit/s to 200 mbit/s when using VPN.

[@ErnestHemingwayy]

I have 2000ms of Framebuffer, and F quality :( Can't buy a new modem, it's the one that came with the ISP. Also, no money to get a new one.

[@counterstrikelord]

What is the game at 8:15?

[@BattleNonSense]

a free to play game called "Ironsight"

[@igorthelight]

It's Ironsight. Basically a free Call of Duty: Black Ops 2

[@nex4613]

Before you ask, no it's not pay2win and yes, it's better than all recent CoDs we've had for years. Download it and give it a shot, game's great :)

[@Limeayy]

split-gso causes a bit of latency in bufferbloat, i go from grade A+ to C if i have this enabled.

[@raghavtripathi564]

Hi Chris, great video thanks for sharing it. Can you recommend a good router for gaming? Thanks :)

[@mygoogleaccount2354]

I always seem to have a higher ping than others(by 20-30ms) and feel like I experience a a lot of desync in FPS games. Im plugged directly into a modem (no router). Is there anything I can do to determine if its on my end? Ive used ping plotter for a while and dont see and dropped packets

[@CivicDuties]

Do what he does in the video, test on dslreports.com they have many tools to assist in tracking down your issue. It would be a good place to start.

[@davetaht4989]

The most advanced tool we have is called "flent", downloadable from flent.org.

[@l7nalmari189]

I hv asus rt-ac57u router and run qos but still get buffer-bloat .. can U tell me what should i do

[@SavellM]

So does pfsense still not work right with bufferbloat? I'd really like this but with pfsense if possible??

[@rv112xy]

Savell Martin It works fine for me with CoDeL.

[@SavellM]

@@rv112xy awesome will give it a go later today. About to setup pihole

[@BattleNonSense]

PfSense supports multiple traffic shapers including FQ_CoDel and so successfully eliminates buffer bloat. That said, the reason why I can't generally recommend PfSense to everyone is down to its lacking implementation of UPnP which _(as I showed and explained in my video some time ago)_ causes serious issues in specific usecases/games. So if you have that same usecase, you don't want to deploy PfSense.

[@SavellM]

@@BattleNonSense sweet. Considering I am the only gamer in the house I'm going to give it a go

[@rv112xy]

@@BattleNonSense What game really do need UPnP? I can't imagine why.

[@CivicDuties]

Battlenonsense any router recommendations for 1.5gbps up/down connection , done the openwrt on an old archer c7 with cake and worked wonderful, but speed limited by cpu, and have been holding out on buying another router capable of doing so.

[@davetaht4989]

An intel i3 or better, running openwrt.

[@sufyanyounus5686]

Hey chris can you test amd anti lag new feature

[@LEKTOR-DST]

AGREE

[@davetaht4989]

@@LEKTOR-DST What amd anti lag feature?

[@Bonus7]

Hardware Unboxed has a video on that. It seems to work better under 90FPS

[@angrynerd2103]

So i use cake qos and my bufferbloat is an A. My quality grade for some reason though seems to be a C... That shouldnt be the case as i dont experience packet loss and im wired. My wifi seems to actually give me a grade of A+ which is weird as i would think wired should be better.

[@bigbrownmamba3591]

Hey bro, awesome stuff! Quick question: after I set up fq_codel should I also prioritize my PS4 IP if I want no lag? Or should I not mess with any of the prioritization features and only have qos.

[@abukareem6511]

@1:18 ghost sound?

[@SteveHertig]

Hi Chris, thanks for all the techy vids! My question surrounds an observation from 750hrs of BFV. Why do enemy players seem too fast? Kind of like watching a old 16mm film movie, where they are only in every other frame. Things they do are just too fast. Example- one shot kills from A1M1, or pulling your pistol simultaneously and hardly be able to aim or get one shot off before the other guy fires 4 shots. I run the netcode monitor and this behavoir is normal, not associated with ping spikes or packet loss. 85ms ping typical Xbox one. Also, apart from player interaction, i feel I am playing about 500ms in the past, often fall off laders after three rungs, have to jump fences twice,..etc. This combined with the too fast enemy is frustrating, a double whammy. Hope you can address one or both at some point.

[@Mido_]

What router are you using, Battle(non)sense?

[@richie2801]

Hi Chris, do you have a chance to test the new Cod?

[@MKR3238]

That triple kill at 4:05 lol

[@amiroucheacheli3007]

Hi, BOSS..... Can you test for us the new low latency mode from Nvidea new driver, to see if there is really an impact , thanks man.

[@TheMizzle3]

Love these videos

[@Deltree83]

I always waiting for new content, because this man knows a lot of net code. In gaming, is it upload bufferbloat which matters more than download bufferbloat?

[@BattleNonSense]

Since most internet connections have less upstream bandwidth than downstream bandwidth it is much easier to saturate your uplink and thus run into issues with bufferbloat there than on the downlink. That said, bufferbloat is an issue that affects both directions, which is why you want to get a router that does traffic shaping in both directions.

[@malarkey0949]

Battlenonsense!

[@notmyname5449]

Bufferbloat is such a weird thing. When I had a 50Mbit/s connection, I had very minor bufferbloat. Now with my 100Mbit/s bufferbloat has become a much bigger problem.

[@davetaht4989]

Not weird. It gets harder and harder to shovel packets intelligently the faster you go. It's bound by cpu interrupt latency which has got worse over the years, not better. So you need to somehow process more packets per interrupt which leads to ever more batching, which affects your latency. Example - at 100mbit, we can often achieve 26us interpacket latency. At a gbit, it's oft 10-100x worse.

[@kamil950]

You wrote your downlad speed. What is your upload speed now and before change?

[@notmyname5449]

@@kamil950 With 50 Mbit/s I had 10 Mbit/s upload and now I have 40 Mbit/s upload.

[@H0don]

Hi, I would also see the video about Low Latency Mode from Nvidia + combo with G-Sync and V-Sync.

[@bashfulwhale]

@Battle(non)sense I belive for Belkin routers its called " Intellistream" but im not certain. (update): Did the same test with this new setting configured in my router and went from a Bufferbloat rating of a "C" to an "A" so likely can confirm that was the correct setting.

[@obese7027]

I currently have an old Zyxel ADSL modem from like 2005 and I feel like my online gaming experience isn't really optimal (bad hit reg etc, not 100% sure if those are caused by the modem tho). Do you think i could see some improvement from more modern modem(are there some new features in modern modem that improve the overall online gameplay performance?), and which one would you recommend?

[@thehoshy964]

Would appreciate a video on the nivida driver setting "low latency"

[@TheKillerZmile]

he tweeted that he's almost finished with the review for amd and nvidia's low latency mode. pls wait for the upload

[@YoKhoe]

Hi there, Battle(non)sense. Always appreciate your videos. Would you be making a video of the best routers based on categories such as performance, budget, etc.? Also, I have a coax based fiber connection. I have converted my service provider's wireless router into essentially a modem, and got an additional router by TP-Link to provide better wireless coverage across my home. Would I have to get a different modem in this case? or a (wireless) router?

[@garbygarb31]

Oh my god I commented on one of your videos yesterday asking you to do a video on bufferbloat!!!

[@davetaht4989]

Tachyons help.

[@nobocks]

how do you find bf4 servers, all are fake full and empty when join :( Few who have player had blatant cheaters :/

[@entark0]

Recently switch to a ER-X as a home router. No more lag spikes and everything is A+ on DSLReports with a 100/30 Mbits connection. I previously tried a R7000 from NetGear and their Dynamic QoS does not work well at all. I tuned the SQM on EdgeOS following Dave Taht's recommendations and it made it better. Wondering how I can add the framing overhead on EdgeOS though. Is it just not possible?

[@davetaht4989]

The gui no. The command language, yes. There's also a backport of sch_cake to the edgerouter available separately.

[@entark0]

​@@davetaht4989 Oh well, even better coming directly from you haha. Hmm, yeah no problem using the CLI, but I have not been able to find the doc about that. Any indication ? Also, is CAKE really better than FQ-CoDel ?

[@davetaht4989]

@@entark0 It's just a wrapper around htb. I don't run edgeos so I dont know how to do it. hit ubnt's forums? or reflash it with openwrt?

[@entark0]

​@@davetaht4989So I could not find anything about it on the ubnt forum. I ended up installing sch_cake which indeed works like a charm even though I had to downgrade the firmware which is not so good for security but it's just a home router. I configured cake with besteffort (and docsis) but reading the man page did not give much clue about how to configure it properly. This is for a docsis 3.0 100/30 mbits connexion with usually between 3 and 5 users doing netflix, voip, browsing and gaming. Any advice?

[@davetaht4989]

@@entark0 groovy. tc qdisc add dev your_dev root cake nat docsis ack-filter besteffort bandwidth 30mbit on outbound. 1-liner. :) Inbound shaping requires 4 lines using tc mirred. I'm lazy and just configure to sqm-scripts to get it all right. lochnair might have those 4 lines lying around, just ping him publicly over there?

[@DjLuCKyCHaRM]

Call Of Duty Modern Warfare 2019 it is do or die for the Cod Series for me this time.

[@herasuziel9]

Interesting as always...but away from the "Nerd" tech of adaptable routers...whats ur experience with commen router like Fritzbox line?

[@BattleNonSense]

I never had a Fritzbox . :) But what I do to determine if a router is any good for gaming is simply run a speedtest on dslreports and see if I can get at least an A for bufferbloat or not.

[@igorthelight]

Cheap routers most likely have ALL of the prroblems :-)

[@herasuziel9]

@@BattleNonSense well then a 7490 is NOT good for gaming....speeds on DOCSIS connetion 100/7.5 IPV4 only line are A but bufferbloat gets a C :( ...even with "priorisation" on.

[@0LoneTech]

They can frequently be upgraded to a configurable firmware. See for instance openwrt.org/toh/avm/start

[@halredden3509]

My APPLETV is a data hog and seems to be unaffected by my netgear nighthawk xr500's QOS. is there a way around this or am i stuck with brutal ping spikes? i have a 200mbps service but in reality its around 170mbsp, i have my anti bufferbloat set to 79%.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Can always just limit what the TR is able to pull. Or even get it off the net when you're playing

[@jardavenhoda5850]

hello, does port forwarding matter? Im behind CGNAT and wonder if it could help me with games if I order public IP with open nat

[@ploksid9319]

DSL Reports have a bunch of configurations, should I change anything ? I have fiber 100mb down 50 up. Love your videos !!

[@BattleNonSense]

Generally speaking, you don't have to change anything for the speedtest, but the OpenWRT site/form/wiki has tutorials on that if you want to dive deeper into the subject (high resolution tests on dslreports, etc.).

[@Thee_Sinner]

Chris, would you be able to analyze Escape From Tarkov? There’s a terrible stutter issue that no one seems to be able to figure out (or at least I’ve not seen a definite cause anywhere). The game is supposed to be updating to Unity 2018 sometime soon™; it’s rumored that this is supposed to help or fix the issue, but we really don’t know how long it’ll be. Thanks

[@BIackSkillX]

Does anyone knows if my Unitymedia Connect box supports fq_codel, cake or OpenWrt? I cant find anything in the manuel.

[@davetaht4989]

Ask the manfacturer loudly and publicly if they support fq_codel (rfc8290), or cake....

[@davidjohansson1416]

Did you reuse this footage? I’m pretty sure ive seen it before long time ago.

[@ricardonacif5426]

My Edge Router X gets A on the test and also I get real 22mb/s with an internet if 200mbps. Thats not a bottleneck right?

[@adrianh5275]

What is this version of Call of Duty in video?

[@timothylouis5845]

what is the game you played in the last half of your video?

[@davetaht4989]

Hmm. I can't find marc's comment asking about aggressive tcps and the problems steam downloads are creating for y'all, so I will try here. 20k hits in 2 days is more hits than all the videos I've done to date, combined. :( I do wish more folk would take a timeout to do one of mine. In this one, I explained much of what was wrong with wifi, and how we intended to fix it with a demo that was really fun: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iJOQhqF-edxjaNEm50s I got a bunch of engineers to stand up and act like wifi packets. In 8 minutes. No explosions. We completed the work 3 years ago and many wifi routers based on the right chips now have 25x bufferbloat reductions in latency under load - no configuration or sqm required. I still would never use wifi for twitch gaming, but YMMV. Anyway, back to steam: there are multiple kinds of tcp - delay, loss, or hybrid. this paper categorizes them well: arxiv.org/pdf/1903.03852.pdf This paper categorizes how they are abused in cdns: arxiv.org/pdf/1905.07152.pdf notably the IW. You needn't wade through all that, but basically what steam does is open 10-20 aggressive tcp flows simultaneously to do a set of downloads. 1-2 would be enough! tcp is designed to fill up the link with a single flow. Using 10 takes a really long time to stop them all from overwhelming the link and clobbering your latency. we tried really hard with cake to beat steam's abuse of tcp into submission. But failed. I even went up to valve and begged them to stop, told them they they were hurting their customers and not getting any extra measurable bandwidth, and in fact often getting less because of all the retransmits. I show'd em how to use the right tools to measure their real world performance. Got nowhere. They also seem to be using an aggressive tcp that with 1 flow can overwhelm the link. 10 flows is twice as many flows as bittorrent uses, and bittorrent uses a much less aggressive tcp (ledbat) that backs off when the link cracks 100ms latency, which is still lousy. ledbat++ backs off even sooner and yet still causes problems with windows update. (if you really want to know more details about how tcps operate, see the first paper I linked to. It's a complex subject that is fundamental to how the internet works, and I wish more people deeply grokked it) I thought about filming a video with chris with every tcp expert I know giving valve the finger and begging them to stop. 1-2 fat flows, preferably using pacing & tcp bbr is *enough*. fq_codel and cake can handle that. not 10+!

[@davetaht4989]

All I can do is get gamers as a whole to ask steam to re-architect how they do downloads. Maybe with massive complaints, and competition from places like google stadia, which did get it right, they'll fix it.

[@NscopeISforNOOBs]

Great video , can you test if downscaling / upscaling the resolution of your game to run a non native display resolution can cause input lag ?

[@uSnatch]

But what can I do if I have a cable connection and "D" for bufferbloat?

[@igorthelight]

* Update firmware on your router * Install OpenWRT * If nothing helps - buy a better router.

[@BattleNonSense]

use a router which supports FQ_CoDel or CAKE. :) kzbin.info/www/bejne/pV7KY4Nph51nmtk kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHuYXpeZbtGUrpI OpenWRT is a very good solution too and it allows you to tell the CAKE shaper that you have a cable connection so that it knows the overhead. :)

[@uSnatch]

@@BattleNonSense, but the problem is that I don't have a router, only an ethernet cable to my apartment. So, I need to buy one with cake support or change my ISP (if another one doesn't have the same problem)?

[@davetaht4989]

@@uSnatch so you are sharing the link with the rest of your building? If so, tell 'em that cake will make your net better for everybody... and your landlord, too.

[@Azizani]

I got A+ Bufferbloat grade but I didn’t configure anything at all and still get stupid lag spikes especially when i play a game like fortnite

[@joekrle9521]

ich habe eine dsl leitung von a1. ich habe das nicht genau verstanden, was du damit genau gemeint hast, dass probleme auftauchen könnten, wenn man eine dsl leitung hat? würde mich über eine antwort freuen. peace

[@BattleNonSense]

Bei DSL ist der "overhead" der an jedes Datenpaket darangehängt wird am Größen. Noch schlimmer ist es wenn deine DSL Verbindung auf "ATM" aufbaut, da ist der Overhead noch schlimmer. Soll bedeuten, je höher der Overhead, umso wahrscheinlicher ist es dass die ~10% Bandbreitenreserve die der Shaper einrechnet bei weitem nicht mehr ausreichen und du trotz FQ_CoDel / CAKE Probleme mit Bufferbloat bekommst. *Stell dir das so vor:* Du bestellst einen LWK von einer Spedition. Du weist dass du 500KG aufladen kannst. Jetzt stellst du 100 Teile zusammen die insgesamt 490KG wiegen. 10KG rechnest du für die Verpackung ein die der Spediteur mitbringt. Was du nicht weist ist dass der Spediteur jedes einzelne Teil in eine eigene *Holzkiste* verpackt die je 1KG wiegt! Das sind dann 100KG nur für die Holzkisten, somit kann der Spediteur nicht alle Teile mitnehmen weil es wegen der Holzkisten zu schwer wird. Das Gewicht der Holzkisten ist der Overhead deiner Verbindung und DSL hat den größten Overhead, den du dem Shaper aber leider nicht mitteilen kannst (außer in OpenWRT).

[@joekrle9521]

@@BattleNonSense alles klar vielen dank für deine zeit und deine ausführliche antwort. also wäre es am besten glasfaserinternet zu haben oder?

[@BattleNonSense]

grundsätzlich, ja. kabel internet ist auch gut was den overhead angeht, aber da teilst du dir die leitung mit anderen nutzern was dazu führen kann dass du zu den stoßzeiten plötzlich weniger bandbreite hast - ich habe da leider viele UPC nutzer denen das in Tirol so geht.

[@joekrle9521]

@@BattleNonSense ja ich war auch früher upc kunde, hatte oft lag deswegen auf a1 dsl umgestiegen, da das das einzige was in meine gegend geht. bei cod von 30 auf 19 ping runter, aber trotzdem ist das spiel unspielbar. ich glaube es liegt am spiel selber. framedrops usw. vielen dank noch einmal und ne schöne woche noch

[@ducky0069]

correcting the bufferbloat on tcp/udp or just tcp, games use udp more than tcp but dslreports only uses tcp protocols and not the udp game ports, so latency on udp can still occur unless you throttle the udp more to safe number pending on the type of connection you have from your isp, but then again there are other issues that happen in the game that may not be apart of the bloat issue, like in some of your videos you've done your analysis on games, tickrate, hosted client games,the latency, lag etc. As always your doing a good thing chris, peace

[@davetaht4989]

Um, no. fq_codel and cake automagically prioritize sparse (e.g. gaming) flows.

[@ducky0069]

@@davetaht4989 sparse, as in none?

[@davetaht4989]

@@ducky0069 sparse means flows that are well below their fair share of the link, which gaming packets are, mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/hZGjm899t87YZl9JJUOWQq4KBsk

[@domeskeetz]

When you say voice over IP do you mean problems in applications like discord? I do notice my connection will shit out in discord every so often for a second. It's strange

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

I think that is just discord

[@cdoublejj]

so are you suggesting open wrt over untangle now?

[@Th3i2Av3N]

I have the ASUS RT-AX88U. And I can’t seem to get better than an A grade. I have my bandwidth set almost half of what I am provided to get that. Any insight? Keep up the great videos.

[@Goz_Klahaz]

yeah Asus is tricky lol, I have the RT-86u and I had the same problem until I used an open firmware called Merlin (Asuswrt-Merlin) and it has everything the Asus firmware has and a lot more including fq_codel, codel, and SQM, plus it has the overhead feature for the type of connection being used.

[@Th3i2Av3N]

J T so you were able to achieve the A+ rating? I’ll have to give that a try. Thank you

[@Goz_Klahaz]

@@Th3i2Av3N yeah bro on the 86u and RT-AC3100 I could get a+ only after I used merlin.. You have 1 of Asus newest models which should easily get you a+'s.. If you do end up trying merlin the Adaptive SQM QOS works best for me.

[@Th3i2Av3N]

J T you were right. I finally after 15 tests was able to achieve the A+. But for some reason now my 5 ghz WiFi isn’t working on Merlin.

[@Luuu90]

could you do a video on DyAc vs Gsync?

[@mm-rw3hi]

Dyac is just backlight strobing (doesnt do anything but introduce rapidly flashing lights ,you can actually disable that in your monitors service menu reachable after pressing a certain button combination easiely found on google )gsync is adaptive frame rate (he has multiple videos on this )

[@Felix-ve9hs]

Since I switched to Telekom (you might know it as T-Mobile) and their 100/40MBit/s Download/Upload (I get 105/35MBit/s Down/Ul) my EdgeRouterX just slowed down my Internet Connection ... Bufferbloat on dslreports.com was still the same (A - A+), I guess the Router/Modem Combo has some kind of QoS built in...

[@BattleNonSense]

_"slowed down my internet connection"_ what does that mean exactly? whats your bufferbloat rating when you connect a PC directly to your T-Mobile modem/router and run the dslreports speedtest then? if you get an A- or better then you probably don't need the Smart Queue of the ERX. :)

[@Felix-ve9hs]

@@BattleNonSense QoS on: 96.7 MBit/s Download / 28.4 MBit/s Upload Bufferbloat: A+ Quality: A Speed: A Ping: 8-43ms QoS off: 107.8 MBit/s Download / 37.6MBit/s Upload Bufferbloat: A Quality: A Speed: A Ping: 9-45ms

[@davetaht4989]

hmm. It may well be that ISP is getting it right. (free.fr is for sure, a dozen others I know of, none talking). Could you take a packet capture with that test running and send it to me? Is that cable? fiber? dsl?