Martin Scorsese's Comments On Marvel Movies Prompted Tim Blake Nelson To Do His Research

[@BUILDSeriesNYC]

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[@JimElford]

2 incredibly important aspects to this interview. 1, the interviewee took his time to really think about the question, formulate his answer. 2, the interviewer gave him the time and space to think and really give his thorough response without cutting him off, prompting him or throwing in a funny one liner. No soundbites given or sought. Intelligent discourse.

[@brandonkylemarks]

This is a great point. I was actually frustrated when I first started the vid how long it took him to ask, and how much he was putting into the question. But he gave TBN all the time in the world to answer so it's all good

[@Loonypapa]

3. I will never get over Tim Blake Nelson speaking in his real voice. The man is a chameleon.

[@tlz124]

This interviewer has been excellent in the interviews i've seen him do. Well i've only seen one other interview, but still.

[@CaptHayfever]

Then when somebody writes a clickbait article about this interview next week, they'll just quote 3 words of it out of context.

[@AreEia]

This is the reason I subscribe to BUILD series. These interviews are an oasis of actual conversation compared to pretty much all other similar formats. Saw the Daniel Sloss one first, and really liked it. Also in this day an age its good to see an interviewer not have an agenda or actively forcing the questions in a political direction. GG to those involved with the show.

[@blackromulan]

Tim Blake Nelson is a horribly underrated actor.

[@MiSambra]

O Brother, Where Art Thou? FTW

[@QuintessentialQs]

He disappears into his roles so well that I think people don't realize just how many times he has delighted them.

[@kalalakapay]

Stole the show in O Brother Where Art Thou

[@jrwoodson3927]

Yup"

[@GanGanorGuitar]

Dude probably the most underrated actor working at least since o brother. I've never ever seen him turn a bad performance

[@futurestoryteller]

Look at the depth of conversations you can have when you're actually diplomatic.

[@JaredMartinTaber]

I completely agree. Take the time to calmly debate. That's the way to see each side in a reasonable way. View different aspects with each other to open your mind. So refreshing.

[@lowercasesteve]

Fantastic point.

[@futurestoryteller]

Only a coward thinks temperance is fear.

[@nickfilms8828]

Imagine not actually listening to what Scorsese said or the fact he wrote an entire article explaining himself. Sure whatever helps your argument to keep theme park movies around

[@futurestoryteller]

Non-sequitur

[@balkee42]

Buster Scruggs himself

[@stephenmarco2927]

Imight Realperson “we thought you was a Toad.”

[@Loonypapa]

@Imight Realperson Well... I'm with you fellers.

[@balkee42]

Soon Forgot i assume u mean west texas tit

[@balkee42]

ŇøHă Ģ. Curly joe the gambler. He will gamble never more

[@MiSambra]

@@balkee42 Surly Joe

[@antona.1327]

Much like Ben Kingsley, this guy was cast to play the arch rival of an iconic Marvel hero, but was never given the due he or the character he played deserved. Shame. Tim would've been a fantastic Leader.

[@justinhepler6282]

Isn’t he still alive in the mcu

[@vivekrao13]

@@justinhepler6282 he is but that hulk franchise is dead

[@bravovince3070]

He is gonna come back in The Thunderbolts.

[@stevencooper1103]

Im still holding out for him to come back.

[@awakz100]

He is awesome as Looking Glass in Watchmen

[@thomasduncan5522]

One of the best character actors of all time.

[@kendowlingkdj1]

The best take on this debate I've heard yet. And he's great on the Watchmen tv show as well.

[@MrJole777]

Yikes

[@mistermetokurarchives]

The show is absolute filth and it desecrated the memory of one of the best graphic novels ever written

[@MrJole777]

@@Jack-rk7jc doesn't change the fact that this show is trash, boomer.

[@lukashepp5157]

@@MrJole777 Why?

[@MrJole777]

@@lukashepp5157 Because of their nonsense message and wrecking established characters lol.

[@M613M]

Of course The Leader knows what he's talking about!

[@jaykay98]

Lol glad somebody remembers. Wish we could have seen him actually become the Leader.

[@isinganddootherthings4616]

I hope marvel uses him as leader in the mcu movies Man

[@samuraigundam0079]

I was about to say that:) Too bad his presence has been ignored ever since Feige took charge. Same with Doc Samson and the Abomination.

[@DexPeck]

Still breaks my fucking heart that we've never seen him fulfill that role

[@dtank76]

@@samuraigundam0079 doc samson

[@TheIrisMessenger]

I loved the last line, "I'm not sure how useful that it." Because we can argue all day about what makes art, art. But in the end, it isn't going to change the cultural impact of marvel and other superhero movies!

[@BunnyMan456]

I disagree. I think the conversation has proved incredibly useful. And it’s easy to forget that Scorsese’s comments were an answer to a question he was asked by an interviewer. So this feeling was already in the air. And who better to articulate that dissenting view than Martin Scorsese?

[@TheIrisMessenger]

@@BunnyMan456 but defining art will never lead to a clearer picture, it will only create false binaries, and categories that don't actually work in the real world

[@SmartDave60]

We clearly recognize what Scorsese is getting at. We don’t go see Scorsese or Tarantino films w/ the same posture as we do most MCU films.

[@TheIrisMessenger]

David Smith lol if you’re still going to see Tarantino films then your perception of what should be considered cinema is definitely skewed

[@SmartDave60]

iris care to explain why?

[@Salgood]

Everyone having this conversation, please go now to a dictionary and look up the definition of cinema. Note, it does not contain reference to the quality at all of film, it does not address if its good or bad, made with integrity or by committee. Just motion pictures, the art and techniques of, or a place to watch films. That's it.

[@Cerulean0987]

What they are failing to address is what fraction of the market is devoted to super hero movies. Upon closer examination, super hero movies are a very small percentage, yet somehow they garner all the attention and are deemed a "virus" by some. There really isn't that many of them every year. I think what they mean to say is that blockbusters get all the attention (and $$$) and there isn't much talk about the smaller movies. Well, I have to say, that these movies are in demand and there is more than enough room for the other films to be made. You can't fault the audiences for not wanting to see their "art house" movies.

[@EastmanD]

I'm of the mind that Superhero movies don't make "Great Cinema" any more than Comic books make "Great Literature"...having said that, I've seen most if not all of the movies (can't keep track of all of them) and I used to be into comics. Every word of your comment is correct and there is room for all. I suspect that the Superhero movie craze was destined to take off. Comics have always been great escapist fodder and given the times it's no surprise that Marvel movies and such have become huge because they are great escapism! It only took time before technology and the demands of Comic action movements were coincided and when they did the sky was the limit. Remember seeing really fake scenes of characters attempting to fly ? Ugh ! But your comment was dead-on.

[@Cerulean0987]

I, to this date, have never seen a definition of "cinema' to equate it solely to arthouse. What this is is the classic "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy on display in its full glory.

[@theblacktide9474]

I think scorcese tryn get ppl to see his movie marvel makes movies based on comics scorcese makes movies based on famous/infamous ppl they get ppl to the theater

[@stevoc9930]

The reason Scorsese is continually commenting on Superhero and Marvel movies specifically right now and some of his fans (of which i'm one) won't want to hear this. Is nothing more than a cynical tactic to generate publicity and buzz for his Movie the Irishman. Add in the nice little bonus that shitting on superhero movies is like catnip to the pretentious pseudo-intellectuals that blight the academy.

[@BarbaPamino]

The entire film industry sucks I agree, but while superhero/block buster films only take up so much of the screens, they do take up much more of the budget. Look at Warner Bros for example. Just think about how much money was wasted the last several years on huge budget DC movies.

[@tylerharris2430]

surprised he didn’t mention the fact that he was literally in a Marvel movie lol

[@alozor13]

Two marvel movies if you count fant4stic

[@Sleeper99999]

Well the interview begins noting his involvement with the WATCHMEN television series, so it's established right away that he works in the genre.

[@jamesduffy7549]

Alot of actors do it for the paycheck and dont care about it. Chris Eccleston literally said he did Thor 2 "for the money" and then you can go and do more worthwhile stuff for a few years. It's the same reason Stanley tucci is in a transformers film

[@mickeye6428]

@@jamesduffy7549 That Chris Eccleston made the best movie of his career "just for a pay check" only speaks poorly of him.

[@jamesduffy7549]

@@mickeye6428 the best work of his career? That speaks more poorly of your film and television knowledge than it does of Eccleston

[@NoCureForMe]

Tim Blake Nelson, not just a brilliant actor, but a voice of reason. Great, albeit short, bit of interview.

[@kokomanation]

He is totally right .The only point that I agree with Scorsese is that Marvel films tend to become extremely repetitive when not very creative directors and writers are attached to those projects

[@EastmanD]

" we thought you was a toooaaaddd.."

[@dmelson7502]

He did get all loved up though.

[@gmcmurr15]

Them sirens did it lol

[@blurgle9185]

Few laughs have gotten so close to killing me as the laughs that scene brought me.

[@Kishan_Baijnath]

"-what?-"

[@kds5895]

Eastman D .... DO NOT SEEK THE TREASURE

[@jetfire97.]

"now what could I have possibly done to deserve such aggression?"

[@smittyvanbonjohnson]

Shame we’ll probably never get to see his take on an MCU villain. An 11 year cliffhanger is a bit disheartening...with the exception of Twin Peaks of course.

[@nahomaragaw5047]

Colton Smith hey you never know. Most fans thought we’d never see red skull again but he’s shown up twice since his introduction in the biggest movies.

[@aleksisuuronen5969]

@@nahomaragaw5047 yeah but Hugo Weaving who made the character for the screen what Red Skull is has only been in MCU film once (Captain America: The First Avenger) so there is that. He didn't do the other Red Skull appearances. So if someone else would do Samuel Stern but not Tim Blake Nelson how would we get what the starter of this thread wants?

[@nahomaragaw5047]

Aleksi Suuronen Wasn’t the issue with red skull that Hugo weaving didn’t want to come back? I’m just saying that marvel could have a use for the character. In that instance, I don’t see why Tom Blake Nelson wouldn’t be interested in coming back.

[@aleksisuuronen5969]

@@nahomaragaw5047 yeah they could absolutely but using Red Skull as an example to what the starter said doesn't work exactly because Weaving didn't want to come back is what I'm saying. Let's say if people wanted Weaving they didn't get him in those later appearances, if people wanted Blake Nelson (like the starter) and he wouldn't want to come back and MCU would still bring the character back without him (and it would look the same and all without it being him) then people don't get what they want, right? I'm just saying Red Skull is a bad example if people want Tim Blake Nelson's Hulk character Stern.

[@nahomaragaw5047]

Aleksi Suuronen Ah, I get you now. Yea, I suppose that isn’t the best example.

[@TheDan744]

He really sums everything up with that last sentence. Well done my man.

[@JustSomeCanadianGuy]

I kept waiting for him to mention he was IN a Marvel movie.

[@johnr1740]

I am still waiting for him to return as the Leader.

[@mrcritical6751]

He was in two he was in Fant4stic as well

[@rohithkumar8708]

@@mrcritical6751 what is fant4stic. Never heard of it

[@mrcritical6751]

Be thankful of that fact

[@mrcritical6751]

So bad that the director commented to somebody on Twitter using his movie as an example of failed CBM

[@d.aardent9382]

I rarely see Nelson just as himself and having a conversation. I really didnt know what he exactly looks like in normal mode as im so used to see him in some odd exaggerated makeup where he looks way older or odd in some way. And i am not used to hearing him speak without an southern accent also. Lol

[@JustSomeCanadianGuy]

I don't buy this argument. Because movies like Moonlight still get made with regularity.

[@kellyrobinson6543]

Name these movies

[@JustSomeCanadianGuy]

Roma Lady Bird Phantom Thread Leave No Trace Sorry to Bother You mother! First Reformed You Were Never Really Here The Rider Call Me By Your Name Fences Wind River Hell or High Water Star Wars and The Avengers didn't keep these movies from being made.

[@kellyrobinson6543]

@Yellow Flash you must be a white man? I am a man.i just asked some youtube nobody a question and, as usual, a white guy comes out of nowhere and makes ASSumptions. Do you people do anything else?

[@kellyrobinson6543]

@Yellow Flash oh, and those movies are Oscar bait films. And none of them are successful...but because you are white you will still have a rebuttal. Just wait

[@ktcool4660]

@@JustSomeCanadianGuy LOL, Roma never got a theatrical release.

[@solvemproblerstudios5889]

I totally agree with him! Marvel has some shots and scenes that totally qualify as cinema, even though the corporate repetition of it is awful.

[@mickeye6428]

Bullshit. They are less repetitive than Scorsese movies. Watch Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy back to back. Then watch Casino and Goodfellas back to back and then you tell me who is repetitive.

[@hcm9999]

Not just the movie industry, but any industry is always about profit. For as far as I can tell, it has always been that way. Film studios want to produce super-hero movies simply because they are profitable. And the film industry has always been like that, since the very beginning.

[@pablosmith5473]

Very easy to sum all that debate. Cinema & art films = jazz or classical music, gourmet/fine cuisine with flavors all in subtlety, an art form like painting, sculpture, photography. Super hero & theme park movies = pop music, junk/fastfood with a lot of sugar, salt & mega flavors in your face, a product to consume quick and simply forget about it after the experience. Now, none of these are better than the other, it’s all subjective. But it’s a fact that they are definitely not the same thing at all, neither their goals. Different beasts for different audience, that's where people on both sides get confused and all mixed.

[@WalterLiddy]

I was expecting more given the title. How was he prompted to do research?

[@GoDamnWeird]

Look, I don't get it. Pulp Cinema, Highbrow Cinema, Arthouse Cinema, Pop Cinema, Experimental Cinema, Teen Cinema, Trash Cinema...it's all Cinema. You like it/you don't like it; that's Personal Taste. What kind of world is it when someone like Martin Scorsese feels like they have to jump up and down to make themselves relevant? He's Martin Scorsese, that should be enough for him. If I was him, I wouldn't give a damn what trend is current, I'd make whatever movie I wanted to make; just like he already does, because he's Martin Scorsese. Why complain?

[@richardtessier9436]

What is "cinema"? In terms of "cinema", can anyone explain the differences between a Scorsese movie and a Bergman movie? What are the differences between the run of the mill movie and a great movie? Which parameter should we use? What parameter does Scorsese use? I suppose that not all parameters can be accessed/used/explored by all directors and, of course, it is the same for viewers. Just wondering...

[@freshoftheoven965]

The avengers is not cinema but Logan is totally a different movie

[@Ngamotu83]

The fact is that today multi-screen cinemas, i.e. multiplexes, have to make the sort money that only blockbusters can pull in, to remain open. They are fundamentally businesses after all. The sorts of movies that Martin Scorsese wants to see on the biggest screens, couldn't generate the sort of revenue the multiplexes need, to say nothing of the studios needing to make the same sort of money to see a return on what they invest in filmmaking. Art house and independent films are more niche, and don't have as wide appeal as a franchise film. As a result, it is always going to be the big franchise film made for a much wider audience, that takes centre stage and so makes the most money. You will never see a movie like Leave No Trace or Phantom Thread making a billion dollars, because they just don't have the audience to pull in those sorts of numbers. People like Scorsese may not want to admit it, but cinema has to make money; it is a business. He is an artist working in an industry where it is necessary to make money in order for him to make art. Just consider the fact that for Netflix to provide him US$160 million to make The Irishman, it was necessary for the streaming service to make that money from movies and programs that don't meet his definition of 'cinema'. There would be no cinema if the studios and cinemas put artistic films ahead of all other films, including blockbuster franchise films. Because that would result in the studios and cinemas losing money and going out of business, which would mean the death of cinema.

[@maxigol1977]

Well explained. Also, the reasons: streaming and piracy. Too lazy to get off the couch and too cheap to watch it in the theater.

[@profshad3429]

@@maxigol1977 wow that turned bitter. Some people just don't like going to movies. They get annoyed with the audience. I agree on some occasions.

[@Ngamotu83]

@@davidechavez-valdez6626 That's not entirely accurate. For one thing blockbuster films did not exactly exist in the 1970s. That may be when they started, with Steven Spielberg's Jaws and George Lucas' Star Wars, but the blockbuster phenomenon didn't really take full form until the 1980s, when franchise films really started to take off with the likes of Indiana Jones, Die Hard, Back to the Future, etc. Most of those first blockbusters too, weren't exactly in-depth character studies. They may have fleshed out characters, as do a fair few superhero movies today, but they weren't character studies. In fact, I would argue that movies like Logan or Black Panther are more of a character study than some of the most popular blockbusters of the 1980s. As to whether or not art house films have wide enough general appeal to justify being shown on the large screens at multiplexes, there is no argument you could make for showing There Will Be Blood, Silence, or Ex Machina, on the large screens ahead of Deadpool, Aquaman, or Doctor Strange. Do you really think that for the average person going to the movies on a Friday night, they would prefer to see Ad Astra rather than Guardians of the Galaxy? It takes more cognitive effort to enjoy an art house film rather than a big blockbuster franchise film, which most people don't want to do when they're winding down from a hard week's work. By the way, the superhero/comic-book movie trend is not going to burst like a bubble anytime soon. With the likes of Deadpool, Logan, and Joker proving that the genre can take on different, more mature forms but still be successful, we're only going to see more comic-book movies, but way more diversified. Whether it is DC taking an approach that involves less universe building, with a focus more on individual films, or with what Marvel has planned for phase four, which looks set to broaden their movies in new directions, the comic-book genre is not going to end anytime soon. All it takes is a little reinvention and innovation, and we'll be seeing comic-book and other franchise films for a long time yet, especially since that is where the money is at.

[@casualhamburger9607]

@@Ngamotu83 is it sad that what you're saying is completely true? The comic book movie trend won't stop until the fans stop going, and that's not gonna happen any time soon. Disney is most likely gonna make even more bank off of their new streaming service, reason being is Kevin feige stated that "too keep up with the marvel movies you would need to watch the disney plus shows". Kind of pathetic how the fans will dickride them even if they are mostly anti consumer.

[@Ngamotu83]

@@casualhamburger9607 Why is it sad? That has always been the nature of cinema. The studios have always been making narratively cheap movies for people to enjoy, typically to make money. In fact, even before the rise of studios, movies were being made to display gimmicks and revolutionary visual effects and little else. Filmmaking wasn't an art originally, it was a gimmick. It just so happens that at this current time, comic-books are the genre of choice for studios to display their best visual effects and to make the most money.

[@michaelmcdonald8452]

“Logan is cinema.” It’s telling that he had to make reference to the one “comic book movie” that takes place in a somewhat feasible universe to resist Scorsese’s point.

[@josiahferrell5022]

It is telling that he likes to put his BEST example forward first. He didn't say the MCU wasn't cinema, he said Logan is the clearest example of the kind of "cinema" that Scorsese was talking about.

[@michaelmcdonald8452]

Josiah Ferrell I’m not seeing how what your saying refutes what I’m saying.

[@josiahferrell5022]

@@michaelmcdonald8452 your comment made it sound like you think that superhero movies are not "cinema" based on the fact that the first movie he mentioned was Logan.

[@carlosmartinezjr3501]

The Dark Knight is clearly cinema.

[@michaelmcdonald8452]

Carlos Martinez Jr I don’t disagree but describe how you qualify it as “clearly” cinema?

[@anelson2006]

I wish they would make a distinction super hero comic book based movies and movies that's based on comics. There are many genres and a lot of movies that are based on comics. Road to Perdition, anyone?

[@johnsourvelis2415]

its funny how he mentioned "Logan" and not any of the others made by disney, i wonder why

[@matt-attack3627]

John Sourvelis cause he doesn’t want to admit how successful they are

[@johnsourvelis2415]

@@matt-attack3627 he probably doesnt care about that because success is not the same as quality, which these movies lack severely

[@booyahinc]

Or how he ignored Deadpool entirely.

[@maurodriguesxr]

He's just exemplifying by mentioning Logan. By that, it means very little - if anything - if it's a Disney or Fox movie.

[@Vexen-A077]

Maurício Rodrigues exactly it’s a MARVEL MOVIE MARVEL CHARACTER

[@Kuriousape]

As civil a discussion on the topic as I’ve heard so far. And all the better for it.

[@brandonsimoncini]

Tim makes a great point on ownership of the properties, but Marvel seemingly has understood that since Winter Soldier; The Russo Brothers on Captain America/post Ultron Avengers, James Gunn on Guardians of the Galaxy, Peyton Reed on Ant Man, Scott Derrickson on Doctor Strange, Taika Waititi on Thor, and Ryan Coogler on Black Panther Because Marvel put so much faith into these directors, they came out as some of the best in the series as those movies have what Scorsese thinks lacks; ownership

[@LordColeslaw]

I don't know why everyone is so up in arms about Scorcese's comments. He didn't mean any disrespect. He even said that they do have a place in the same interview. I saw that interview after reading the articles and watching the clickbaity videos that mostly shunned him. My two scents are, they just made a big deal out of a small snippet of an interview.

[@King31395]

Rock'n roll was considered "not real music" when it took over radio and was the hottest new thing in the 50's/ 60's - and the old guard predicted it was a fad that would go away. Hip hop was also considered "not real music" as well. We can see how those predictions turned out. Its ridiculous to think that it's because of these movies over here, no one's seeing the movies over there. Mass crowds don't pay money to see art house movies whether superhero movies are being made or not. This is really just turning into old guys trying to piss on everyone's picnic. Marvel movies are too popular - come see my movie instead that mainstream audiences aren't willing to shell out top dollar to see in theaters (they'll wait for Netflix).

[@KevinWidesouls]

King31395 Agreed. The bitterness on Scorcese’s and Coppola’s end is so apparent, yet they have no idea how this generation of superhero movies has been beneficial to them specifically. If Scorcese made The Irishman 20 years ago, it’s runtime would be cut down by the studio. Now that Netflix exists, he can create his full artistic vision, with an equal (if not greater) budget and the same top-notch actors. And since everyone can stream it, they can pay attention to it better as well. Have movie theaters shut out movies like The Irishman recently? Sure. And is this because of the prevalence of superhero movies? Absolutely. But that has resulted in streaming services literally throwing money at people like Scorcese because there is still a market for this type of content. It’s just online as opposed to in the theater. And since some KZbin channels (and subreddits) exist solely to discuss movies, it can get tons of high-quality discussion amongst cinephiles and audiences alike. But these channels grew in size, in large part, BECAUSE cinematic universes and superhero movies full of Easter eggs exist. Those movies are designed, in part, to be dissected like that. Arthouse films ride the coattails of those types of movies, and now they get included in part of the discussion. For example, a channel like New Rockstars exists primarily to discuss superhero movies....yet it will also dissect a Tarantino or Scorcese movie as well. Without these big-budget pop-culture-defining superhero movies, the lesser known movies would be getting LESS discussion overall because the internet communities where these discussions occur would be much much smaller.

[@MrJole777]

@@KevinWidesouls why should they be bitter lmao.

[@ComicBookGuy420]

But apart from a few leftover shows Marvel is no longer on Netflix🤔

[@kingweb581]

@king31395 because it was Black Music DUDE if it was white noooo problem do your history BRUH.

[@rhysperegrine5100]

You can't compare Marvel movies to hip hop. Hip hop was a brand new and exciting genre of music that had evolved organically from the underground. Marvel movies are big budget extravaganzas churned out by huge media conglomerates for maximum profit. A few of them are actually pretty good but, come on, let's get real. There are the equivalents of Kool G Rap and Public Enemy currently making movies...but they ain't making mainstream, superhero movies.

[@ronyscot3118]

No one puts the superhero movies by force by the throat of anyone! If the new "sub-genre" of heroes movies is so popular, it may not be a bad thing, maybe people will only want after a long day to relax for a while watching a funny movie ... we are not always looking forward to seeing the list Schindler's or a Polish drama about a mother with 15 children! and that bothers these former super directors who have been displaced from the main focus of the cinema!

[@JustWasted3HoursHere]

What is the purpose of a movie? To move and entertain the audience in a meaningful way. And on that note, many superhero movies fit the bill. I can say this with absolute honesty: I _FELT_ more emotion - sadness, hopelessness, happiness - and felt more connected to "Avengers: Endgame" than to ANY movie by Martin Scorsese or Francis Ford Coppola. And I include The Godfather and Apocalypse Now in that. At Endgame, we gasped, we wept, we CHEERED more than in any movie I have ever been to in a theater. It was an *experience,* which is what movies are all about!

[@turtleboy1188]

Because you are young

[@JustWasted3HoursHere]

@@turtleboy1188 Thank you. I'm 52.

[@Repented008]

My general take away from this interview is that the film industry could use itself a shave and a brighter disposition and...if they don't mind my aspersions on their associates, a better class of producing buddies.😂😂😂

[@Sam_T2000]

if Scorsese wanted to take down big popcorn cash grabs, the MCU movies were the wrong example to use...

[@Poezick88]

Sam T why?

[@Sam_T2000]

Poe zik - because they aren’t just mindless special effects cash grabs like _Transformers_ or something, they actually tell real stories with real characters, too.

[@JB-1138]

Justice League, BvS....

[@Sam_T2000]

J B - those are not MCU movies... but I’d say they at least try to be more than just spectacle.

[@mickeye6428]

@@Poezick88 Because they are brilliant, creative, and the most difficult and successful endeavor in the history of the art form. Keeping an ongoing series containing several smaller series that consistently deliver and explore a variety of themes while successfully integrating with each other and the grander theme is easily the greatest artistic achievement in film. It's the Moonshot of cinema.

[@ComicBookGuy420]

This man should've been The Leader😤

[@tobytrimby8415]

Interesting. I wonder if the interviewer knows that TBM was in two Marvel films. One of the original two which kicked off Phase 1 as well.

[@samkostos4520]

The origin of theatre is Greek and Roman plays. They would always be about the mythical gods who all had superhero like qualities.

[@chriswyatt9869]

10 years ago we got a tease for the leader. Still waiting on it

[@Hezefem]

Now you have it....mF is coming in cap4

[@mcrettable]

when a cowboy trades his spurs for wings

[@STEP6192]

I agree with Scorsese. Not everything is great art. Just like Joker, Logan was intended to show the MCU how these movies should be. There's emotion in those movies, character development, that Marvel HAD back with the Spiderman trilogy.

[@TheRulerRoderickSutton]

Pay attention to a society and its stories told at a particular time. Stories of a society (for us, our highest form of story is the cinema) greatly influence, and are influenced by, its people. What do our stories say about us? Our ethics? Values? Future? Cinema is not just entertsinment. Cinema is stories, and stories are vital to a society.

[@steveowen3155]

Scorsese conveniently ignores his own participation in genre film making his whole career -- the crime/gangster genre. He's right that any genre can become too commercial and function more as a commodity than art, but to focus on superhero films alone just confuses the real issue.

[@matthagen67]

Still waiting for Samuel Sterns, aka the Leader make his comeback in the MCU. We need New Avengers fighting the Masters of Evil (just don't use that name in the film, it's cheesy AF). Leader, Abomination, real Mandarin, Enchantress and Red Skull.

[@ComicBookGuy420]

Mandarin's getting his debut as the classic villain next year🤘 (All due respect to Ben kingsley)

[@TheGrafton12]

Agreed...gotta give the MCU Professor Hulk his own brainy Gamma nemesis.....

[@jaymz010]

So George Lucas & Spielberg didn’t “help define cinema” with their giant cinematic tent pole, special effects driven franchises? Um...yes, they did. Technologically, how they are shot, sound, theatres etc. Dya have any idea how many styles of movie you’d have to throw out, because they don’t fit into Scorsese’s narrow definition of “cinema”? Horror immediately comes to mind. That genre fits in with his “theme park ride” definition. But you can’t talk about cinema history without talking about Dr.Caligari or Nosferatu. Sheeeit, the first on screen cinematic universe, was the Universal Monsters. Porn? Pornographic Films, is that cinema?

[@withnail-and-i]

It's kind of reductive to lump all horror in the same basket, a film like Happy Death Day can't really be compared to Hereditary (which Scorsese praised). What Spielberg and Lucas did was define the trajectory of the blockbuster, which has indeed become more soapy over the years.

[@withnail-and-i]

@Darth Yautja What he says is that those superhero movies do not seek to develop the drama of characters other than to serve the larger plot, which isn't entirely true, but when it's done it's more shallow than highly rated "dramas". Then again I'm sure he praises 2001, and that is neither roller coaster, nor is it character drama.

[@jacobbender3573]

I agree, Scorsese has a very narrow definition of cinema and it's only according to his own personal cinephile tastes. Not everyone wants to watch movies like Taxi Driver, and Goodfellas. You can make an argument saying that these films are more artistic than Marvel films but that still doesn't change the fact of how successful and popular Marvel films are within the cinematic industry. Refuting the genre entirely is extremely arrogant.

[@FelipeKana1]

That porn mention at the end, completelly unexpected kkkkkk

[@silverdragon710]

This is totally not what he said go and listen again angry fanboy!

[@thewayfinder9537]

Wonderfully articulated points made by a wonderfully creative actor.

[@ejaramillo1994]

He couldn’t have explained it better. Brilliant

[@drummerboy6189]

At 1:58 he mentions Logan, well yeah that's Logan it's on a completely different level from common superhero movies

[@mickeye6428]

Logan isn't as good as at least half of the Marvel movies.

[@drummerboy6189]

@Mark Legend Marty isn't doing that, it's almost like no one is actually listening to what he's saying and is just reading the headlines journalists put out that keep people stupid, oh wait, that's exactly what's happening lmao

[@sherlockkrankcase3578]

What a second, he doesn’t have a southern accent?

[@johnmc3862]

I can’t express how much I admire this man as an actor but liking this comment will go some of the way.

[@salvation7362]

The "risk taking" "artsy" movies will find homes on streaming platforms where they belong. People want spectacle when they pay money to see a film in a theatre, something huge and expensive, filled with explosions and special effects. Movies that need to be seen on the big screen with surround sound and bass that moves your seat. I'm not paying money to go sit in a dark room with 200 people to read sub titles in between the heads of the folks sitting in front of me. These films can be enjoyed at home, sitting on your couch.

[@1969Makaveli]

Comic book movies can be cinema. I just watched Captain America: The Winter Soldier, The Dark Knight & Logan and those are the best comic book movies ever made. There is a place for all films and besides it`s a business and these movies bring in lots of money.

[@Caraxes_RoguePrince]

Had to listen to every second and he is right imo

[@darkjedi7]

I'm a fan of Scorsese. But he said that Marvel film aren't 'Cinema' while Irishman wasn't released in any cinema (home streaming), but Marvel films did so.... 😅

[@MarkRutland2]

I am sure that the fans of Marvel movies are human and respectful of humanity and intelligence. But it is also clear that a lot of people are trying hard to prove the opposite.

[@MarkRutland2]

People keep appearing, we love Marty, blah, blah, blah... but, you know, Marty is very clever, but... Don't you understand that Mr. Scorsese is saying that Marvel ideology (of production and narrative) is killing Hollywood? So, you love Marty, but that's not the point. The point is: do you love Hollywood? Or do you prefer to live in Marvelwood?

[@salvadortorres360]

I prefer marvelwood

[@mololuwa]

Very eloquent and insightful answer

[@wariowuzo9433]

He’s great in Watchmen.

[@lostinlucidity]

Dude was in one MCU and said "🤪" then dipped

[@rexmundi51]

Lol.

[@shyman3000]

Tim is correct about Scorcese's Op-ed being beautifully written . I don't think he dealt with any of Scorcese's actual arguments though. I saw the same thing in a Jon Favraugh interview. Favraugh basically praised Scorcese to the hill as a master but never really dealt with any of Scorcese's arguments about Marvel. Scorcese's whole piece was premised on the idea that Marvel films are more like going to a theme park than what we call traditional cinema. That is just self-evident. And he made the point that the super hero films are not taking risks. This is also self-evident. Scorcese equates risk taking both financial and creative with "cinema". He is correct. It's annoying that a man with real authority like Scorcese can write a rhetorically beautiful article that clearly articulates a self-evident truth, and people can just gloss right over the arguments as if they don't matter. You have to actually engage with what the man actually said. Scorcese's argument stands.

[@SkippyGranola]

Holy shit. This is the first time that I've heard Tim Blake speak without a southern accent.

[@danielebrparish4271]

That's the great thing about art. It doesn't m6ch matter what the critics think. What matters is whether or not the work can generate enough cash for the artists involved to continue the production of more work.

[@Loonypapa]

I hope Scorsese wasn't throwing films like The Watchmen and Pan's Labyrinth under the bus. Or even the first Hellboy. Or Joker.

[@andrewdh56]

What I would point out on this subject is say what you like about superhero movies they make huge amounts of money that the studios can then use to finance the movies that are more driven by art that don't necessarily have the same box office appeal.

[@ultron.ver.1979]

"Overabundance of comic book movies?" 5-6 of these are made a year amongst hundreds.

[@malafakka8530]

Do we really need to say that the number is not meant literally? Edit: For some reason I read "hundreds of comic book movies" instead of "overabundance of comic book movies". So, my comment is kind of pointless.

[@jamaalreece7255]

Malafakka Actually yes. So many people hang their hat on that one argument. Marvel makes what? 1-3 movies a year?

[@SuperOmnicronsj44]

Over abundance of SUCCESSFUL comic book movies with emotional reasonable that Scorsese can’t relate to , because it doesn’t relate to his thinking .... but is more widely accepted and popular than his “Art house” films.

[@SuperOmnicronsj44]

Malafakka or the need to say that Scorsese is a bit asshurt that his genre isn’t dominant among the mainstream and he should just take the high road and not say anything?

[@malafakka8530]

@@SuperOmnicronsj44 than he and I have something in common. I am not very impressed by most of those movies.

[@y3ee3e]

This guy was in the 2008 hulk right? The guy scientist that helped make abomination?

[@geekprotagonist1139]

So comic book films time just like there was a time of the western & gangster movies. Any film maker saying other wise or down playing it 100% is being a bit hypocritical imo. Go leader.

[@HeyCrabman14]

He's just embarrassed by losing to someone who went by "Mr. Green" once.

[@seanocalaghan2225]

This is almost like a straight conversion argument from is a graphic novel literature or can it be classic lit the watchman is a good example of a great graphic novel being great literature and also the movie being a great movie

[@aaronbaca765]

Calling superhero movies “not cinema” is pretentious and incorrect. By definition they are cinema and as much as I personally love indie arthouse style films, comments made by older filmmakers simply show how out of touch they are. Superhero films aren’t eliminating smaller character pieces, those have moved to streaming platforms. It’s the golden age of tv because of it. The reality is those movies tend to “fail” at the box office in today’s movie climate. People typically only come out to the theater for blockbuster style films. Every now and then there are exceptions but smaller films aren’t driving people to the cinema as much. Unless it’s a spectacle most people would rather NETFLIX and chill. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@mcdotterson4103]

Netflix is real cinema, that's why scorsese's newest movie is out on it lolol

[@grandgreenphoenix318]

Ross was brought back in a major role and is now setting up Thunderbolts (obviously). Since Nelson seems to actually be waiting to return to the mcu, it would only make sense to bring him in and have The Leader in Thunderbolts. There is so many comments about disappointment he will “never” return. Said who? Feige? Feige specifically stated that they have always been thinking up ways to bring back earlier characters. So, I genuinely think Marvel will do just that, offer him a big role moving forward and Nelson gets a well deserved return. Hopefully vice versa would happen with Tim Roth. They only deserve it. Both Nelson and Roth have never said any negative aspects about working in a marvel role so it can really be assumed they most likely would return in a heartbeat (if the scheduling wouldnt be an issue). For the TIH fans (myself included) Blonsky and Sterns best quotes each “Pissed off and ready for round three” “I’ve always been more curious than cautious, and that’s served me pretty well.”

[@hrishid291]

When the movies have actors like Robert downey jr, mark ruffalo, scarlet johannson, tom hiddlestone, don chedle, sam jakson, benedict cumberbatch.. How can those movies not be real cinema.

[@badder9525]

Good cast doesn't always mean good movie lol. I'll use a lot of food examples here: Mcu is like McDonald's, most people like it, it's popular, it's made for the masses and doesn't need to be high cuisine. It's fanservice without substance, if you think about it this whole superhero extended universe trend in the last decade left nothing in cinema but that. It will not leave anything in the history of cinema, there's no substance or complex art in it, there are no messages or new things, it's pure fanservice. And i love them as much as i love McDonald's, but i can still recognyze it's not good cinema. I think Scorsese went hard on it because everyone loves it and it's the trend of the moment while he always made and loved high cuisine/high cinema that now is underrated because most producers don't take risks "cooking something new and complex" but want to do McDonald's. ( Sorry for my bad english )

[@RecluseBootsy]

When Scorcese said Superhero films are over saturating the market, I take it he hasn't counted the number of films released in the past 11 years. Marvel has 23 properties over a decade, in 2018 over 850 films were released alone. He also oversimplified the caped genre as the new machine gun toting Schwarzenegger flick. Sorry, old man but it isn't compilation of stunt men diving away from explosions and macho one liners. The post modern superhero film juxtaposes philosophical questions with the real time consequences of those ideas. The problem with the grandiose spectacle of marvel films is it draws away from the nuances of each character and theme. Collective Security v. Autonomy, what a heart made by science is capable of, what a pure moral character could do with the body of a super soldier, torturing patriots being framed for something he never did, what a king's authority carries in international crimes, are humans too dangerous to let live/expand, does the past define us because we have red in our ledger, some times the monster is your savior, even gods are fallible, small time crooks can save a universe, self-actualization, nostalgia and the dangers of it, sins of the father, etc. There is so much more to the MCU and Scorcese turns the blinders on because it isn't long talk pieces with 5 ginneys in suits talking about the blacks and Cubans taking turf on the south side or whatever or crooked cops running around for 3 hours yelling about finding snitches. Times change and the day of the dago has passed, let it go and enjoy what character studies like Joker can present. After all it's still a comic book movie regardless if it pantomimes your own films.

[@jrwoodson3927]

2:24 They want a billion dollars a movie. That's what he's saying.

[@ConkerKing]

'Super' is a criminally underrated movie, and is definitely art / cinema / whatever they wanna call it.

[@GetOutsideYourself]

What a mellifluous warble.

[@KokomoGreenberg]

"friend, your losing your foldin' money"

[@davenierop1540]

He would have been great as The Leader Im hoping for him to get that chance for the She Hulk series

[@michaelwolf8690]

That crystalizes a major problem I have with Scorsese's perspective. His presumption in his argument is that unless a movie is of a singular vision the only result can be artistic compromise. But in reality compromise is the worst outcome and artistic collaboration is the optimum. And in fact no man is capable of creating cinema or even feature length programming without the creative effort of others. However one man who believes his artistic vision is inviolate can very easily succumb to hubris.

[@bobmortimerisweird]

I dont know what all the fuss is about. 137wide release movies in 2019. 10 of them are super hero movies(im counting MIB and Brightburn.) I think its safe to say a lot of non-comic, non-superhero movies are "artist by committee." Glass doesnt seem like an "artist by committee" type of movie,

[@benneden2580]

Legion, Watchmen, Joker ... are all bursting with creativity. There’s also heaps of daring comics out there beyond dc and marvel that are fertile ground for tv/film adaptations.

[@ArjonRahman]

Benn Eden marvel made creative movies like gotg as well... james Gunn definitely has put his footprint in those movies..

[@rickg8015]

He was great in The Incredible Hulk..

[@azto8980]

Just shut up

[@rickg8015]

AzTo Ok boomer..

[@RayofVibez]

For real. Would love to see him return as the character they were setting him up to be.

[@arielmalsireal5453]

The New Incredible Hulk By Mark Ruffalo Is DISGRACE!

[@sifatshams1113]

Scorsese should really watch Unbreakable.

[@RazvanMihaeanu]

BRAVO! Well said, Tim Blake Nelson! Martin Scorses and Woody Allen are just making the same movie over and over again, for years. To blame the superhero movie genre for being something like "formulaic" - while you doing the exact same thing (with the same, personal favorite typecast actors) - is just hypocrisy. Scorsese is just jelly.

[@cruddddddddddddddd]

I do not like the Watchmen sequel, but Nelson is brilliant as Looking Glass. By far my favorite part of the series. This guy is so talented

[@maximumgainpodcast4835]

Yeah!! Way to back up Logan! I agree with him quite a bit

[@johnfaulk7775]

There is room for both types of cinema. If one form is more popular then you may have to stretch your abilities to compete.

[@davodshah8869]

‘Ok, I’m with you fellas’ - Delmar

[@dmelson7502]

Well I'm voting for yours truly.

[@SmartDave60]

Neither Logan nor Joker are MCU, and I’m sure Scorsese would have a more nuanced opinion of comic films like them.

[@wblockade4972]

Lmao I like how people try so hard to separate the movies. Despite my personal feelings about Logan, or DC movies, if Scorsese had said about them that he said about the MCU (which, honestly, he did, but anyway) I would defend them as cinema as well. While the MCU is the biggest target, understand that his comment is directed to all comic book movies who take the market share of investor funding. Smaller movies are getting squeezed out, and there being some feelings about that is understandable, but that doesn't give him the right to say what constitutes cinema.

[@SmartDave60]

W Blockade Scorsese was gonna direct Joker tho’.,

[@wblockade4972]

@@SmartDave60 He was attached to Joker as a producer, if I'm not mistaken. Not as a director.

[@SmartDave60]

W Blockade either way he wasn’t against be associated w/ a comic film.

[@mickeye6428]

They aren't as good as MCU movies either.

[@kennyteeology3526]

Studios need the high-profit movies in order to make the art house movies that may not make much of a profit. Out of the hundreds of movies made a year, the MCU puts out a maximum of 3. The MCU is not pushing other kinds of movies away.

[@iandalziel7405]

Thousands of movies are made (or finished) every year - when ya go somewhere like Tubi - tubitv.com/home - you'll see all kinds of movies that one marvels that someone put good money into (there's also a few gems in there - that _Green Wing_ tv series is pretty funny)

[@enigmawstudios4130]

They're movies. They require artistic direction, creation, execution. There unfortunately preventing indie movies from getting made, but they are DEFINITELY cinema. Spielberg and Cameron went through the same criticism back in the day

[@ArjonRahman]

Enigmaw Studios even Star Wars did... but look now how much respected the franchise is to most filmmakers... I am not worried about marvel cuz people will appreciate it after some years just like star wars

[@jcrider90]

I despise the mindset that has suddenly emerged in the artistic world that if it’s not done the way certain people agree with that it’s all of a sudden not art. The marvel cinematic universe is built on an in depth story arc that expands throughout history. The characters used have been developed for years and have a deeper story line than most characters found in the art pieces suggested to be true cinema. The skill applied to create these beautiful movies goes beyond what is seen in most other areas of film. Plus, when did the word cinema or cinematic expand to mean anything other than a motion picture, or the method in which they are made? People like Scorsese have their area in which they can be effective and then you have those who direct movies such as those in the marvel universe that can be effective in theirs, cinema is not limited to one persons ideology of what it is. Thank you to people like Tim Blake Nelson who dare to disagree. Side note, did Scorsese feel as though his esteemed work in Shark Tale was cinema that was worth the investment of his time? Get over yourself sir, and recognize that millions find joy in these films and that is what should truly matter.

[@ShinRyojin]

Very well said!

[@iandalziel7405]

"The characters used have been developed for years and have a deeper story line than most characters found in the art pieces suggested to be true cinema. " In some cases - but the Movie Universe plays loose with canon - changing comic characters ethnicity and gender for no good reason that I can see...

[@jcrider90]

Ian Dalziel I agree that quite a few liberties have been taken, yet the over all story line is still in tact. Changes to story arc to fit a motion picture format does not negate the original character development.

[@Moobeus]

If comic book movies disappeared tommorow, there wouldn’t suddenly be a resurgence of so called “art house films” produced by big companies. This argument that “insert genre here” has been stopping companies from producing “ insert genre here” goes back to literally the dawn of film. Film making is a business, there is never a large amount of risky art house projects undertaken by a big studio because they are risky and they don’t make much money. Big studios will and always have go for big crowd pleasers. The idea that is comic book movies killing art house is just a straw man. Art house has never been a popular genre for large producers because they don’t make money, simple as that, in 10 years we will be having this exact same conversation but in regards to whatever the next big block buster genre is. If people want art house to become a genre that is invested in, then people need to actually go and see art house movies in theatres. Until then companies will stick to movies that do draw eyes to the cinema. This is withought even mentioning the fact that comic book movies take up less than 5% of all cinema screens, while bringing in over 50% of the money, each year, and therefore are basically the only type of movie keeping movie theatres afloat financially. Withought comic book movies there may not even be cinemas to go and see the art house films that are made because they would all be bankrupt. Let’s say you are a nucleur family and you and your spouse want to go and see a movie, the current movie going experience is way to exhausting and expensive to justify wasting your time and money to go and see an art house film that looks the same to the untrained eye inside a theatre or on your home tele. For a couple with kids to go see a movie today you are looking at 30 plus dollars for tickets, 20 plus dollars for a popcorn and 2 drinks. Not to mention allotting an extra 30 mins of babysitting expenses to sit through the adds that play AFTER a movie is scheduled to start. Who is going to spend all that time and money and risk going to see an art house film they may not even like, when they can go see a blockbuster which at the very least will be entertaining. Maybe we should stop blaming comic book movies and start blaming the movie going experience itself.

[@josharteca1107]

Holy shit I love Tim Blake Nelson.