BULLET CONSISTENCY

[@iainhutchinson1957]

Thanks guys. In some of the shorter barrel life applications it actually makes sense to buy a whole barrel life's worth of components at once so you're all one batch.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Yep, works for some, Cheers

[@evadevries2952]

Lain, great idea...buying in bulk identical lot #'s works great. I always chrono new lot #'s and have seen up to 50 fps difference. For me, this means several hours on Excel making new T-Rex style tables! I haven't seen to much variance in actual accuracy between lots. I shoot mostly SMK and SGK...as well as Nosler Partitions for terminal performance.

[@Leverguns50]

Yeah I believe you’re right, keep up the good work and I’ll see you in the next one, happy New Year

[@markandsamafterwork]

Thanks Man, Happy New Year

[@SpeKterDesigns]

Always loving your work team, have a still used Bergers for hunting and target accuracy.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers

[@longbellycaster]

I totally agree the berger is more conistent than the hornandy but iI'm still loving the ELD'M for the general performance and price

[@markandsamafterwork]

Agreed, money where it matters, Cheers

[@tonygillahan]

ELDM is one of my favourite hunting pills out there

[@Jeff_Seely]

I have tried 140 grain 6.5mm Berger VLD bullets and they were relatively finicky versus Match King and I just chocked it up to my Barrel preferring the Match King shape. I know plenty of people that do have luck with Berger and they are definitely the most beautiful mass produced bullets I've seen. Really great video Mark and thank you for producing it!

[@markandsamafterwork]

Thanks Jeff, Cheers

[@aussiesteveakastevecallagh2280]

Thank you Mark you made that very easy to understand . I use Berger only in my reloads for F class and I have found them very consistent overall even from batch to batch , Berger is the pick of the crop in my opinion Steve.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Well yes same here, glad you liked, Cheers

[@joer3198]

As far as I know a lot of Hornady comes off of one machine. But every bullet that is produced by that one machine goes into one bulk bin, then the bullets are loaded from that bulk bin. (So in theory you could get a bullet from the start of the production run of that machine, and one from the end of it.) The Atips you're getting them sequentially as they come off of the machine. At least that's how I understood it when I toured the factory a few years back.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers

[@johannesvanhoek9080]

Great information , anyone offended is not willing to learn , things in manufacturing and in life change and only ones with an open mind will learn and not remain Stagnant , HAPPY NEW PRODUCTIVE YEAR TO YOU AND YOUR WIFE 👍

[@markandsamafterwork]

Thanks Johannes, Happy New Year, Cheers

[@hbudsmalley6317]

Good bullets make a HUGE difference! I shoot Hornady ELD-Match and Sierra TMKs in my 223s. Both shoot 1/4 MOA. I finally bought a box of Berger VLDs to try in my 25-06 and the results are astonishing! One bug hole at 100 yards with an ES of 3 and a SD of 1.4. Load development done for the quarterbore!

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers

[@hbudsmalley6317]

@@markandsamafterwork Indeed. I never bought Berger bullets because of the cost. AS it turns out they are cheaper to shoot because a LOT less money is spent on load development!

[@markandsamafterwork]

Yes, cheaper ain't always cheaper, lol, Cheers

[@neckstumping]

Great stuff again as usual. Cheers

[@markandsamafterwork]

Thanks Man, Cheers

[@lovetoflylovetofly3843]

Another excellent video with sound advice. Shooting out to longer ranges have proved your words correct.....most of all, get out and shoot! Happy New Year!!! Looking forward to more in 2020.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Thanks Man, glad you like, and yes practise is the key, Cheers and all the best for your 2020.

[@leroyjenkins1511]

You are certainly correct. The bullet is the key component to accuracy over everything else. It is wiser to spend more on bullets than other components when the brass cases are very consistent. 22LR accuracy is frustrating since you have little or no choice on bullets, powder, priming, or brass. You must buy factory loads and they all are rubbish in regards to consistency. The bullet variance in 22LR is endless even with the the best brands. They must use twenty different machines to make the bullets as I can’t describe the variance in any sensible manner. At least Center fire offers more control

[@markandsamafterwork]

Thanks Leroy, Cheers

[@Bushmasterpilot]

Spot on. I recently received a new lot of Berger 7mm 175gr elite hunters to replace my dwindling supply. I, like you, keep a half dozen for reference to new lots. The ogive measurement on the new lot had decreased leading to a seating depth change, which although small, led to a increase in group overall size. I caught this after a trip to the range to verify new lot of bullets to previous load. At 300 yards, group went from 1” to 1.5” i returned home and went right to the bullets, measuring both lots. I was surprised to see the difference in the ogive measurement for a bullet that is supposed to be identical. I made an adjustment to offset the change to the new lot and returned to the range, to verify and shot 1” group. Goes to show what you said about small inconsistencies. It very well could have been from tool wear. That small change transpires to roughly 5” at 1000 yards, quite substantial in long range shooting! Cheers, and thx for video!

[@markandsamafterwork]

Yes, that's the deal, glad you liked the video, Cheers

[@longsnipz]

When I used to competitive bench rest shoot (500-600yrd) I had a 6mmPPC and .243 ackley improved, I was really meticulous about every single thing.. I weighed my brass , weighed even the primers (BR-2 primers) and even weighed the bullets themselves and sorted them in lots. When I bought powder, I made sure it was all from the same lot... same thing with the bullets, cases and primers. I ended up with 500-600yrd sub MOA groups you had to use a caliper to see if it really was more than one single bullet impact. I don't miss it, it was really expensive and time consuming. Now I just load for hunting.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Thanks for the story, and yes i understand, lol, Cheers

[@kickapoo621]

I think you are absolutely right. A good example is the .30BR cartridge. It is very potent, but only with custom bullets, which might cost 2,50 Euro, but if you use standard bullets, than it will not shoot better as a .308Win.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers

[@trent7700]

Happy New year mate.Hope the new year is a great one for you and Sam.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Happy New Year, Cheers

[@dinoc.5537]

Happy New Year!!!

[@markandsamafterwork]

Same, Cheers

[@exothermal.sprocket]

Working in a manufacturing company myself (not firearms or ammunition related), working in CAD drawing blueprints, all of these things in firearms and ammunition are in the world of precision engineered mechanical devices. While the cost of manufacturing has come down and become more consistent due to computer technology, generally the more consistent and precise someone desires to be in this world of engineered and machined guns, ammo, scopes.....the price will always reflect that. It is impossible to be perfect in the world of manufacturing. Move the decimal point further to the left, and the cost goes up exponentially. Immutable reality of manufacturing. It's science, physics, mathematics, dynamics. Immense amounts of forethought goes into each stage of weapons and ammunition manufacturing. But as with anything being made, one has to consider the budget, the application, and the intended outcome. Manufacturers generally do a good job returning savings to the customer by taking steps to make the process more streamlined, more consistent, more efficient. Some do it better than others. It's a very fluid field. I'd personally love to tour some well known manufacturers and see how the products are made.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Yep, just a matter of what is, but not everyone is aware, and yes some of the factories would be an interesting visit, Cheers and all the best.

[@exothermal.sprocket]

@@markandsamafterwork You've touched on it handily. Thanks for the effort.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers

[@fastmonaro05]

Interesting talk. I understand the quality Vs Quantity relationship plus the laws of diminishing returns. It is really hard to have everything the same when you consider that just in regards to bullets, even the same manufacturer can introduce a slight change to dimensions. I haven't used Berger bullets yet but will soon in my custom 243WSSM. Even when you neck turn all the cases, weigh them, do the flash holes, pockets, VLD the case necks, and then after that measure the bullets you will still have a difference somewhere. Then you have a powder which can have differences when you get another batch. Little wonder why we spend SO MUCH TIME chasing that holy grail of the perfect, consistent load. But you bring up some interesting points. You must be doing something right hitting targets 15 miles away like the Bismark did on the HMS Hood.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Thanks Mick, well yes if you look at it like that it could appear overwhelming, but on the other hand, if you get everything working properly with using good products, and you do your bit right, you will be surprised how things tend to come together, Cheers and all the best for 2020

[@jacobweber9956]

I was shooting the 225 eldm the other day at 1830 yards and they would group really well with an occasional flyer that was way off.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Awesome, and FYI, flyers are not a term I would use in ELR, they just misses, normally condition based, or at the shooters end, but a miss and nothing more, lol, Cheers

[@jacobweber9956]

@@markandsamafterwork good point. I'm still trying to determine whether the misses were caused by me or the barrel.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Yes could be and as said many times, conditions/wind have a lot more going on than most shooters think, Cheers

[@lancer2204]

One thing you might not have considered is temperature. Hot dies will have a larger cavity, cold mandrels will be shorter, what was the ambient temp? How long did it take for the temp of the equipment to stabilise? I'd guess that the most consistent bullets would come from the middle of the run once everything has stabilised at operating temp.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Not really a concern in that sort deal, Cheers

[@prone_wolf8871]

I pay attention to everything you guys say.... cause technically shooting at the extreme ranges that you do everything HAS to be more accurate then shorter ranges just to stay close to the target zone... so basically I'm going to listen and learn from you guys and shoot my rifle at short range until I can get one hole groups.....cause until I can do that no sense in stretching out to waste my ammo lol.... Again thanks for "sharing" what you do And your hard earned "trade secrets"👍

[@markandsamafterwork]

Thanks Paul, we try for 1/4" moa as a base line, but there's more than just a good group, reading, understanding and adjusting for conditions is at least as, if not more important, so long range practise is just s important, Cheers

[@prone_wolf8871]

@@markandsamafterwork Understood, not saying if you can shoot a 1 hole group your guaranteed to hit Jack sh!t at the ranges you guys are shooting at! I meant if I'm only shooting 3/4 moa I have work to do as a shooter and to figure out where the shifts are in myself and my rifle system lol.. ..again I thank you for any knowledge you offer... And am working my way through all your vids haha 👍 Happy new year.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers Paul, all the best for 2020

[@ridin1720]

Hornady eldM’s have substantial measurable weight & dimension inconsistencies. But for the moderately serious long range guy the price is unbeatable. I think the biggest variable no one ever talks about is the powder scale. Borrow a few scales from your buddies, warm them up in the same room & id bet not one reads the same as the others with powder in the tray.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Well yes good scales are a no brainer for good loading, but exact weight reading is not as important as consistency, load to load, but with decent scales you should have a test weight to make sure they are on target, Cheers

[@FreeBayArea]

Always very informative 👍

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers

[@johnblythe8229]

Nice info. Happy New Year Mark and Sam. My best, John

[@markandsamafterwork]

Happy New Year to you and yours too John

[@amirdzaferovic3489]

Happy New Years! Great video Mark.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Happy New, Year, Cheers

[@billy19461]

Great video! And Happy New Year to you and Sam.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers and happy new Year to you too,

[@tahamert8494]

My favorite bullet is for 30 cal 178 eld x. I m using 300 win mag and 308 win both of rifles 11 twist excellent results. Stopping in hunting and accuracy.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers

[@michaelreed1380]

My buddy and I used to load the hornady "match" grade bullets but found them to be wildly different when the bullets themselves were measured at the ogive, even within the same box of bullets. Very disappointing and Hornady's response was even more so. We now use Bergers and found them to be so much better in consistency and accuracy. Happy New Year!

[@markandsamafterwork]

Yep, seen that too, Happy New Year for you too Michael, Cheers

[@LK-zt9vf]

Interesting topic, thanks!

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers

[@northwestwildandfree1505]

Great info. How is 2020 treating you guys? We still haven't made it there yet but wont be long. Any way happy new year!

[@markandsamafterwork]

Lol, fine so far, all the best for yours, Cheers

[@bee17167]

Is why i sort my projectiles LoL :)

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers

[@kennethgarrison521]

Maybe for another video, but I would be very interested in if and how you sort bullets, weight? bearing surface etc

[@markandsamafterwork]

Not often, but sometimes, and depends on the issues, Cheers

[@paulhoffman1481]

Happy new year guys! I agree bergers do seem to be more consistent than most other brands. Do you think tipping and trimming bullet tips would increase the consistency of cheaper bullets to that of berger? Also you can see up to 10% bc increase from what i read depending on the bullet. Think you guys could test this? Maybe do a sierra vs tipped sierra vs burger vs tipped burger Thanks!

[@markandsamafterwork]

Well, tipping tends to increase the bc, more so on small bullets that large, but only helps a little with consistency, the rest of the bullet is still the concern, Cheers

[@pseudopetrus]

I love Federal for the money. They may not be ELR ammo but they are great for hunting! Just my two cents, if I wanted to shoot ELR, I would need a new rifle, new ammo, and a new shooter! Perhaps if Sam is not too busy she could come to Canada! I think Sam could outshoot me on my best day!

[@markandsamafterwork]

Lol, Cheers and all the best.

[@madsloper]

I've found that the Berger bullets in 338 LM has up to 0.007" difference in the ogive, not the best quality at least not the box of 500 I bought. Good video though.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers

[@ashleynicely1046]

Another insightful video, Mark. More puzzling to me than bullet variation, though, is what on God's green earth are the people who downvote thinking? Perhaps they could take the time to let us know what it is, exactly, that woukld make them happy. BTW, I upvoted.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Thanks Ashley, we will; do more on that as we go, and well takes all sorts, and there ain't no point trying to please everybody, Cheers

[@seventhson27]

Actually, most of the competition shooters I've know shoot Sierra Match King.

[@markandsamafterwork]

They are fine at normal long range shooting, just not as good at ELR because just not as consistent on both the micrometre and the scales, as some others, but as said, if work well for you, leave it be, Cheers

[@demonmaster4796]

Happy new year mate's. Thank u for helping us that don't know 100th of what you have learned over the years. Would u say weatherbee is worth the money? And do u ever use there guns? Another kind of challenge I think would be awesome is a muzzleloader video. And just how far can u reach with one.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Thanks Edward, and both very open ended questions, and depends on the details and no we don't have a muzzle loader, sorry, Cheers

[@jerrymont2595]

Good points!

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers

[@wilhelmhaupt267]

Hi there. Don't you think a lot of the beter consistency you see at elr ranges with the Bergers has to do with the way they pass through the trans-sonic zone? In other words more to do with the general shape than with the manufacturing process? I'm thinking you can have a 100 perfect eld's and the Bergers will still outperform them. I shoot a lot of Hornady's. It is the sweet spot between price, performance and availability where I live (when your not shooting sub sonic) Berger makes a great bullet. Only problem where I live is the availability... I have never ever even seen a Hybrid in any caliber other than 338. Your mostly stuck shooting vld's if you go berger. And even then you have to buy enough to shoot out the barrel.

[@markandsamafterwork]

No sorry, nothing to do with the transonic zone, to do with differing bc's, because of different (inconsistent bullet shapes/weights) as explained in the video, but as said in the video, if they work well for you, or if you are happy with what you have, great, I am not trying to pick on anybodies bullets, just trying to help those that are looking for more accuracy, Cheers

[@loveterrortattoo7867]

Mark how do you feel about buying a older screw lathe And turning your own bullets in order to get the maximum consistency

[@markandsamafterwork]

That would not make for consistency, we use companies with very fine control CNC lathes to make bullets, I could not do even close to that with manual controls, Cheers

[@loveterrortattoo7867]

MarkandSam AfterWork well I’m working on a die/template system for a lathe. Also, I keep getting ads for new (actually affordable) CNC mill/ lathe desktop machines that can get within 10,000th of an inch . Assuming these are correct, could you see yourself and others skipping the manufacturer’s all together for precision elr shooting ? So far I have had a lot of problems with consistency from some manufacturers. I did notice recently that when I order in bulk (2k-5k) there’s a lot more consistency with batches but it always makes me nervous when I open a new box , I’m not certain my shots will hit where the crosshairs are on a cold bore shot . Also, BTW... I truly appreciate how so far you have always taken the time out of your day to not only respond but to give a thoughtful reply. Thank you for that ... I know you must get a lot of comments and I know you’re a busy man - so any reply is appreciated let alone how special it is to get a well thought out response. You are truly a diamond in the rough here on KZbin. I wish you and your family a happy and successful 2020 . -Taren

[@markandsamafterwork]

There is a lot more to that deal than just machining correctly, beyond that, I have videos on bullet consistency and I find that good bands of both jacketed and machined do a descent job and where i can get the bullet design I want I wouldn't attempt to do better, Cheers and all the best.

[@armandoaguilera2969]

I couldnt make the hornady group good on my reloads may be it was me but the sierra was a better bullet on my reloads.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers

[@linklesstennessee2078]

True story

[@markandsamafterwork]

Cheers

[@Chiefshadow4]

175 grains SMKs were picked specifically for the m24 weapon system, need I say more? In all seriousness I do agree with your assessment. I would put Berger at the top, then Sierra, then hornady. In my experience Sierra beats hornady in all the ways, that is with 174 grn .311 (for 54r) and 175 grn .308 (308 Winchester and 30-06) using re15. However for hunting I think hornady performs better. I can’t say much for Berger as I have only shot 50 rounds with it (too expensive) but all people I know who do long range use Berger. I do have a question thoug. How do you feel about solid copper bullets compared to the lead core? I would like to go more green but 70 cents a bullet is a lot.

[@markandsamafterwork]

As said, lead core performs better in several ways, but solid machined has the ability to be more consistent in shape and weight, but really way better suited to the larger ELR chamberings, hope that helps, Cheers

[@tahamert8494]

Firstly happy New Year all off you. I cant understand what is bullet consistency.

[@markandsamafterwork]

Happy new year, and the size, weight, shape of bullets need to be a consistent (the same as each other) as possible, not sure how break it down any further, Cheers

[@briankerr4512]

Are there competitions for the long range shooting you do ?

[@markandsamafterwork]

Not something we get to do, but yes, all over the world, Cheers

[@teambennett3060]

What do you think of alco bullets?

[@markandsamafterwork]

Haven't tried them, but same logic applies and would probably expect similar results to the Hornady A-Tips, but that's another video, Cheers

[@user-wo9uk5do5w]

300 PRC. 250GR.тест.когда будет

[@markandsamafterwork]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/d2eXlmute8ipack

[@user-wo9uk5do5w]

Привет

[@markandsamafterwork]

Hi, Cheers