Bulletproof for BJJ Podcast 73: Judo Vs Wrestling

[@schenksteven1]

Former college wrestler, BJJ blue belt. I have been incredibly impressed with Judo. There is obviously a ton of crossover between Judo/Wrestling, particularly if you include Greco Roman wrestling into the conversation. But what has been really eye-opening for me is a) the concept of Kuzushi and what a black belt in Judo can do with Gi grips and b) foot sweeps. I did a fair bit of Greco wrestling growing up (along with freestyle and American folkstyle), so a lot of the hip throws and trips are all at least somewhat familiar, but I have never felt my body accelerate the way it does when a great Judoka gets ahold of my Gi, and I have never felt as stupid as when I have been caught be a well timed foot sweep. Of course, having said all of that, I would prefer my wrestling background over an equivalent Judo skill set.

[@thomasmosby9150]

Techniques I've found useful from both: -Judo -upper body takedowns: -hip throws and half hip throws (not high percentage takedowns, but the hips are super powerful for off balancing or getting opponents hands to the Mat with force) -arm throws -upper body clinch takedowns (especially no gi) -sacrifice throws are great if you are a guard player, makes your guard pulling heaps more effective and way cooler than just scootin around -grip fighting and the importance of off balancing (kuzushi) -Best techniques ive gotten from judo are the ASHI WAZA (foot sweeps and trips eg. Osoto gari, uci mata, tai otoshi etc) -Wrestling: - first and foremost: LEG TACKLES singles and double leg takedowns ankle picks knee picks - close with the first: SNAPDOWNS are like the JAB of grappling, use them alot (even in the Gi) -front headlocks are probably the easiest takedown to learn and super useful against grapplers that shoot alot -rear bodylock takedowns and Mat returns -the importance of sprawling and hitting people with your hips I lean more towards a Judo style of stand up with a focus on ashi waza because jiu jitsu focuses on using all four limbs on the ground to make it an unfair fight. Judo ashi waza to me is the same, but standing. Something I've found in both is that hips are very powerful. I've also found the arts have more in common than differences

[@bulletproofforbjj]

Thanks YOU for sharing this!

[@haroldcruz8550]

Judo is more suited for people who are not athletic or explosive.

[@lwatson153]

If you ever wrestled then you would know hip throws and others are learned in basics

[@thomasmosby9150]

@lwatson153 I haven't wrestled competitively but I do train with a lot of wrestlers. And yes hip throws was probably the fourth takedown I learned after doubles, singles and sprawl and go behinds.

[@thomasmosby9150]

@@haroldcruz8550 yes I agree, I'm getting on myself and definitely prefer a judo style for my stand up

[@tha1ne]

Leg bans in judo didn’t happen cause Russians were dominating judo lmao, it’s because the Olympics thought wrestling and judo were too similar and threatened to just coalesce the two sports

[@bulletproofforbjj]

Appreciate the comment!

[@justhetip]

@@bulletproofforbjj you really made a huge false statement in your video. Got corrected and replied with appreciate the comment lol. This is why you can’t trust these small podcasts people. More fake news than the media

[@BW022]

Close, but not exactly. Around 2000, the Olympics were talking about removing Judo due to viewership. Honestly, watching men roll around, pins, long pauses, long grip fights, etc. wasn't as exciting as big throws. So, they Olympic Judo Federation changes the rules to encourage big throws and more action in competitions. Leg grabs often led to both falling to the ground, minor points, or could be used as a 'defense' to stall (by preventing your opponent from attacking). However, it was only one of a several rules which changed -- standing after 5 seconds of ground inactivity; removal of minors points for throws; quick penalties for dropping to the ground, or not attacking; rules of same side grips; etc., etc. The sport went from 50/50 standing/ground to 75/25 or so. I did Judo prior to 2000, and came back after 2000 (university and work). It was a different sport. Even out of shape and late 20s, I could dominate younger Judoka on the ground (if the 5 second rule was removed). I eventually left because the sport had gotten too far away from its self-defense origins. Putting guard just to wait out the 5 seconds doesn't work in real life as to so many rules.

[@Gregoman89]

It ruined judo

[@grappling.enthusiast]

@@Gregoman89 absolutely - it leaves an undeniable hole in Judo, which is why we see Judoka's get thrown around by wrestlers.

[@frederickmorton275]

For gi bjj really a mix of both judo and wrestling would be ideal. Judo so to learn the grip fighting- proper dominant grips really kill all the leg takedowns, or at least decrease the chances of successful takedown, balance and timing, set ups for throws, body mechanics of actual throws and just more comprehensive knowledge of what it takes to throw or off balance someone. wrestling also, so to learn defence against leg attacks and how to really shoot for double sing etc, how to actually set it up. personally I have Wrestled in my youth and eventually transitioned to judo and bjj. I do find judo the most fun and enjoyable art of those 3 though.

[@bulletproofforbjj]

don't disagree with you at all

[@Altowner]

I had to find places to train out of town . This one place had a wrestling day on Saturday. I did one summer camp in 8th grade was the extent of my wrestling training besides doing bjj. So I'm meh. But training wrestling only with a ex college wrestler and high school wrestling coach even just one day was killer. Then one day there was a judo black belt who started bjj. The coach let him teach a class and I learned so much .

[@bulletproofforbjj]

Good job travelling to get the extra work in!

[@Haolekine888]

Never fails. Every time you get someone that has this discussion that's not a black belt in both Judo and BJJ they say the hardest best thing your can do is something other than Judo but every single person that actually is a Black belt in BJJ that's also a Black belt in Judo is like "holy hell, Judo is hands down the best possible thing you can do to improve your skill set and is way harder on the body and way less forgiving."

[@bulletproofforbjj]

It's all love for Judo from us!

[@ethanchaney1139]

Do you not think maybe there’s some bias involved in that? Lol. Wrestlers love wrestling, jiu jitsu guys love jiu jitsu, and judoka love judo.

[@MC-tm2uy]

Judo black belt here who also does BJJ. In Judo, when I have a new student, we usually try to bring them slowly up to speed and to pair them up with another high level that will have a lot of control and help them. I was able to talk to a lot of my BJJ and wrestling friends and got them try some Judo out and they ALL told me that is prob the hardest practice they had. As they requested, I did a couple training sessions with my BJJ and wrestling friends at my BJJ school and went full speed...and to this day none of them wanted to do it again because it was too hard. People that doesn't do Judo intensively don't understand that ON PURPOSE, we give people time (years) to ramp up. Come to an advanced session (where there's usually only black belt and brown belt) and ask them not to take it easy and you and you will see how "easy" it will be

[@rns7426]

Judo BB here. I train BJJ and I train wrestling with wrestlers. As a judo guy I love wrestling. There is so much that is very similar If not outright the same. To me it’s learning to shoot as judo is more upright and snatches are more available and learning to hand fight as opposed to grip fight. I really enjoy wrestling. As I can utilize my judo in wrestling as I learn to hand fight. I love learning to stand up. The controls on the ground are different and cool. I do struggle with wanting to fight off my back. But it’s all good as I’m learning new and cool techniques. So yeah, wrestling styles like free style and Greco have so much in common with judo. I feel like wrestlers could easily get comfortable with judo and vice versa. I will say though judo is harder on the body with ukemi and it’s very complicated to learn. Now BJJ. I like it and I train it off and on. It certainly helps my ground game immensely. But I don’t feel like it adds anything stand up wise. Truth be told I prefer to play the stand up game. Not so much that I’m better at I just find it more entertaining. I don’t compete in anything. I just train to stay in shape and have fun. I like to randori, roll, and do live rounds. So, I’m a judoka that places high value on wrestling. I recommend it to everyone. Btw, wrestlers are TOUGH!

[@frankiesfastcooking6027]

I have did judo and wrestling for over a couple decades. One thing is you can’t learn judo with one day a week also over the years wrestling posture is a bad position if strikes are involved. Cardio wise it depends on what type of school you go to because wrestling and judo are too similar. If you’re training, Nogi and Gi with judo you will be more dominant. Also, Russian’s had nothing to do with the leg grabs being removed.

[@realtruth1448]

Finally a comment from someone who knows what he’s talking about, wrestling is a true martial art, it’s been tailored for sport, judo is still a legitimate martial art, that’s why the takedowns\defense are so good, judo is better than wrestling for self defense, and from the looks of it ever since them dagastan dudes came to the ufc judo is now dominating wrestling in the cage Wrestling is overhyped by americans

[@horreheitedet4320]

The russian brothers dominating japanese athletes leading to the ban of leg grabs at the japaneses initative is just not true. The Japanese we’re obviously against the watering down of their art. My understanding is that it was because of pressure from the International Olympic Comittee that Judo changed their rules.

[@bobbydabutcha]

I tried wrestling during my white belt days (2018-2022) with no prevail. Being 38-42 at the time, it was hard on my body on top of getting beat up at BJJ I simply could not pick up on it. This year, I incorporated Judo into my BJJ and it's helped my stand up tremendously. Getting tossed, as you said, is horrific on the body lol. The benefits, however is the ability to take someone down at will. Plus, if you think of it as a reaction game, getting them off balance, breaking their posture, push/pull dynamics and hip/foot placement it becomes much easier to understand.

[@cbroo69]

Judo for Gi, Wrestling for Nogi. The leg grab ban seems to have gutted Judo so badly because before with it felt like a full martial art that would have wrestling and just Jui-Jitsu beat. Its a shame that politics can ruin what could have been a perfect martial art.

[@bulletproofforbjj]

Thanks for watching! Totally agree with you on the political piece there.

[@OswaldTheRabbid]

If banning leg grabs “gutted” the sport, why would you still recommend it over the sport that allows both leg grabs and throws?

[@cbroo69]

@@OswaldTheRabbid if you mean wrestling? because it doesn't have submissions. If you mean JuJitsu iv yet to find a training academy that spends more than 5-10% of the time training standup. The real best way is to cross train really but it depends on your intended application.

[@tomjones6347]

@@cbroo69 catch wrestling is the answer

[@internetenjoyer1044]

leg grab ban is a shame but its not the end of the word, in a gi the single leg is less dominant since you can defend from distance with grips

[@johnnycaralta]

Purely for jiu jitsu, I'd definitely go with judo. If you have basic wrestling knowledge, judo becomes almost a perfect counter to it. Also, Judo is the original jiu jitsu, so it makes sense that it's a lot of the same stuff as bjj, and the throws are designed to set up submissions and dominant positions. Wrestlers have to do a lot more work from a double leg than a judoka does from a makikomi. Even with the throws that the two arts share, judo has adapted them to go straight into submissions. Like kata garuma, for example. In judo, its designed to land the opponent in flat in front of you. Fireman's carry ends up with the opponent to your side, forcing you to use extra energy to achieve the same position. That might not make sense like it did in my head, but hopefully it's clear enough.

[@lomalasl]

To me judo takedowns seem much more low percentage. Singles, doubles, duck unders are much more common and high percentage.

[@realtruth1448]

@@lomalaslyou don’t know what you’re talking about at all, go watch sakuraba’s grappling tournament, the judokas were smashing the wrestlers & BJJ in the standup and sometimes on the ground as well

[@lomalasl]

@@realtruth1448 I did not talk about sakuraba's tournament. I speak about BJJ in general, both gi and especially nogi. Wrestling includes more high percentage takedowns, such as doubles, singles, ways to the back and other CRUCIAL techniques, such as sit outs. Judo is only beneficial for Gi. In nogi, it is inferior to wrestling. Also in terms of self defense wrestling is way more superior. Judo relies on the gripping of the gi, it exludes all leg attacks and involves many risky throws, that give your opponent back exposure.

[@realtruth1448]

@@lomalasl you don’t know what you’re talking about at all, you’ve never trained judo nor have you fought against a judoka, judo transitions to no gi flawlessly, judo is better than wrestling, every video I see of judo vs wrestling the judo guy is winning the fight, sometimes the BJJ guy wins on the ground because their ground game is better, on standup nothing beats judo, even if you disagree I just sent video proof of judo IN NO GI flawlessly taking down WRESTLERS

[@realtruth1448]

@@lomalasl kzbin.info/www/bejne/eqG1mauwgryhd5Isi=KT4kSi6dnfzA2mgK Judokas “in no gi” destroying wrestlers

[@napalminthemorning8309]

Growing up in the States, I had no clue how much MORE popular judo is worldwide than wrestling. Cos here in the US, wrestling is pretty huge. Even those who don’t care for the sport still respect it. Judo is generally an Austin Powers joke here. I think it’s getting a little bit more recognition here since Rousey took over women’s UFC forever ago and when BJJ had erupted and eventually people started tracing its origins to the martial art they’d only known so far as an Austin Powers joke. I wrestled in HS, did a bit of BJJ in college and have taken one judo class. They’re all very different, but they all overlap too.

[@VictorMendoza-jq7xl]

Executing a judo grip for no doesnt help beacause the practitioner's are slick. Using the 'sloth' grip or 'barbie hand' grip helps. The wrist works as well. Clamping through the grips or under/over hooks helps create the frame for the kuzushi. Tsukuri and kake principles remain the same. Im still figuring this out. I appreciate the platform.

[@bulletproofforbjj]

thanks for sharing!

[@VictorMendoza-jq7xl]

You got it brudda. The 'empty jacket' style of judo helps with no gi throws. Take care.

[@I_Might_B_Wrong]

The vast majority of BJJ guys looking into Wrestling or Judo aren't actually looking to get good at either, they're just looking to add a few takedown options to their game before they quit and stick to using them in BJJ context. Wrestling is better for learning a couple basic things and moving on with life. Judo is great if you just love it.

[@mrt445]

The irony is the didn't discuss Roman Greco dominating freestyle wrestling in MMA

[@michaelm9710]

You guys got it

[@user-rm5md2do6d]

These guys should listen to Khabib before talking about judo...

[@HungarianWarHorse]

Cant speak for every dojo, but bjj and muay thai class feel like a vacation compared to judo, who woulda thought constantly trying to throw someone would be exhausting

[@bulletproofforbjj]

Getting thrown on the ground repeatedly definitely takes its toll.

[@JEFFMAN90]

This fool said Muay Thai class feels like a vacation. You probably went to a cardio kickboxing class.

[@HungarianWarHorse]

@JEFFMAN90 actually Cardio Kickboxing is harder. Muaythai class you spend half the class holding pads.

[@JEFFMAN90]

​@@HungarianWarHorse Okay you're definitely trolling at this point

[@HungarianWarHorse]

@JEFFMAN90 nah honestly muay thai is a cake walk, half the class is just holding pads. Try giving 100% on the bag for an hour with hit exercises mixed in

[@redclothgag413]

In my class. Every wednesday we have an ,,stand up,, class. We have 1 week gi week. And In the other week ,,no gi,, week. In gi week we learn judo and In,,no gi,, week we learn wrestling.

[@handler803]

How about Japanese Jiu Jitsiu

[@yogsothoth-tz2bu]

Gordon ryan has a Judo stance so...

[@realtruth1448]

Judo is better than wrestling, you can learn leg attacks from BJJ, JUDO + BJJ all day

[@Matto_Harvo]

You’ve answered the question in a weird way. You say how painful and how hard on your body that judo is. Well, judo throws are all legal in BJJ: shouldn’t you know how to handle those hard throws then? Or would you rather wrestle and break your arm because you’ve taken a judo throw and can’t roll with it properly?

[@bulletproofforbjj]

Even when you know how to break fall it impacts the body and having this done hundreds of times ultimately has a cumulative effect. Do you train Judo?

[@Matto_Harvo]

@@bulletproofforbjj Yep, train judo and jitz. The straight jitz people are living in hope of never being on the wrong end of a big judo throw, they won’t get it from me (even if I could, haven’t trained judo for very long). Actually, no, they live in ignorance. Actually worse than ignorance, the BJJ sweeps encourage, or at least doesn’t really cause injury, if you post on your hand. But try and put your hand out on a big judo throw and you better know what you’re doing. I don’t think wrestling take downs provide that sort of danger. The impact on your body is why you should train judo. It’s like training jitz, but ignoring leg locks due to the effects they have on your body. You can learn them or live in hope of not coming up against someone that knows them well. Each persons’ own choice, I suppose

[@schenksteven1]

@@bulletproofforbjj Boxers punch with their fists, Kickboxers add their feet, and Muay Thai fighters will even strike you with knees and elbows... but a Judoka will hit you with the earth!

[@philipwhitcomb5358]

You do realize that wrestling and BJJ in general shows a person how to roll and fall, right? Whose to say that Judo is the only martial art that shows people how to fall properly? You? lmao

[@Matto_Harvo]

@@philipwhitcomb5358 You've done a few years of judo by the sounds of it bro?

[@eltonblack9421]

BJJ is Judo. Makes sense that learning judo stand up is the better than wrestling to enhance your game. Judo has many grips that are not strictly Gi grips which is very wrestling like.

[@realtruth1448]

Catch wrestling? Don’t forget catch wrestling