Bumble and the sexual revolution

[@cheaxel]

I, as a man, see the retreat of women from the apps as a very good development. I really don't understand why one of the main aspects of a human lifes should be managed by a programm and their algorithms made for profit of a company. We need more third spaces, where people can meet naturally and form romantic relationships again and don't let profit oriented companies have the power and control of those spaces.

[@Nyingmaba]

To be fair, there are benefits, from the woman's side. Consent is clear. All dating apps provide a space where it is clear what both parties are interested in, as opposed to real life where, even if its not a creep or creepily done, women often don't want to be approached if they are in the process of doing something else in public

[@danimariafe]

@@Nyingmaba that should not be the solution, men need to learn how to navigate consent in real life...

[@ryn2844]

Hi! Spotted an urbanism nerd :) I recommend Radical Planner's video essay on 'Third place versus Right to the City'. I just watched it and found out there's not much to the 'third place' theory other than an old book by a disgruntled conservative who didn't think women should have third places, because according to him third places were specifically meant for men to collectively escape their wives and objectify women in peace. After watching the video essay, gotta say, to me the concept of 'third place' is dead in the water. 'Right to the City' is much better. I'm not against people meeting organically obviously, or against hangout spots where you don't have to pay to exist, but the concept of 'third place' isn't very well thought out.

[@DemosApollo]

​@@danimariafe The only way of getting experience is to try but that means that during the trial and error journey you impact a lot of women with your errors. I think a lot of men can do some basic vibe checks but there are a lot that don't have the fundamental experience to do them.

[@cheaxel]

@@ryn2844 Interesting perspective, thank you! I was not really speaking about third spaces in an urbanistic manner, but how society and groups of people are structured and ordered. Think more of a spaces people meet in a manner of interests and organizatory manner, like sportclubs, volounteering groups, neighborhood meeting points etc.

[@kawaiimombear]

Choosing NOT to have sex with just anybody is also sexual empowerment.

[@bigbenguitarslinger494]

In a way, the celibate is a person who is the most sexually empowered because they don't have to

[@extracrispy9229]

CHOOSING is empowerment. Feeling like you need to do either in order to match with some social norm or some cultural value is not empowering. No matter what you choose as long as you chose it and feel like you did so under your own free will and are happy with your choice you won.

[@andiralosh2173]

Also makes someone a terrible consumer 😂 Think of the economy!

[@Kareragirl]

​@@bigbenguitarslinger494 Thats empowerment in the way being a sober from your addiction is - you'll never be as free as the person who wasn't bad at handling it in the first place.

[@sadiemakesmesmile]

@@Kareragirl if you never had an addiction in the first place then its not hard to choose celibacy and feel empowered

[@Benjamin_Bratten]

Met my girlfriend on tinder two years ago and it feels like we caught the last chopper out of Nam.

[@mjr_schneider]

I salute your good fortune from the trenches

[@kafelematavou]

guess im no fortunate son

[@Bojoschannel]

A friend of mine found his current girlfriend 7 months ago on Bumble, surely more luck than anything

[@cdw2468]

truly feels like winning the lottery to actually have a meaningful connection with a dating app

[@awsambdaman]

Same, met my wife on bumble. Respect to everyone still in the trenches

[@foofieviolet]

I see a lot of westerners oversimplifying the 4B movement in SKorea. It is not as widespread as Westerners seem to think it is. The reasons for gender inequality and the shrinking population in SKorea are way more complex and rooted in Confucianistic family values and gender roles, recquired military service of all men between ages 18-28, the cut throat SKorean education system that is causing kids to commit s*icide at alarming rates, the cost of education, the housing crisis in Seoul (where half the entire population of the country lives, there just aren't as many professional jobs in other cities), economic marriage cultural recquirements which young people cannot meet even if they want to get married, and the fact the apartment renting system works differently there. In the West if you're renting an apartment you pay month to month and a deposit. In SKorea you pay an unfront sum which is usually a few millions won and that takes years of savings. Then there's the fact that the work culture in East Asia overall is insane. People regularly work 12-16 hours, usually without overtime pay. So parents can't even be at home with their kids. The 4b movement isn't really that popular in SKorea. But the government decided to blame the shrinking population on "crazy extremist feminists" instead of addressing things like the economic and housing and educational issues. And then Western news agencies didn't do their due research and just quoted the SKorean government, and now everyone thinks SKorean women are all femenists refusing to have sex. And that just is NOT the case at all.

[@foofieviolet]

Oh and also it's still legal and very common for companies to fire women when they get pregnant. But families can't afford to live in one income. So then even if they want children, they just cannot afford to. SKorea is also a collectivist culture. Like in the West, shaving your head to become an outward expression of your political beliefs will make you stand out, but you can still work and live. In SKorea they are not accepting of things like that, you could lose your job. You won't get hired. Job applicants recquire head shots. This is why a common graduation present from parents to their kids is plastic surgery, to increase their hireability. Westerners just don't even understand the 4B movement because they do not understand SKorea or East Asian culture, and they don't understand the social forces at work there

[@Staenhus]

I might have to watch the video again, but I don't think that its widespread nature is what she was referring to, more the radicality of its rejection of social norms and what that says about the norms themselves. Also, every discussion of specific topics is going to be a bit generalising, she's doing it with Western culture as well. It's difficult to reflect every aspect from every possible angle, you would need to write a book for that. With that said, I agree that the West generally over-romanticise SK, prob for geopolitical reasons. What you're writing about should probably be talked about more and I do feel for your plight. Hopefully the movement grows and there can be a structural manifestation of the frustration you're expressing, so that people can get a better life. That's what all of us want.

[@KateeAngel]

4B may not be that widespread, but it should be more widespread. Worldwide. We women gain very little and lose a lot from engaging with men romantically. And romantic love as a concept is over-rated and often used to convince women to act against our own interests and sacrifice "for love" while men don't get pressured like that.

[@badwolf3618]

​@@KateeAngelI always find statements line your's interesting because it seems to communicate the idea that women are unique in feeling this way. Because I see men saying they feel the exact same way about women. I don't really know how to make heads or tails of it. I am a man, but I have zero loyalty to men as a whole, or women as a whole, and thus my desire ultimately is for reconciliation between the sexes, but when both sexes are claiming that the other is worse, and that they see no benefit in pursuing romantic relationships with the opposite sex, I can't tell which one is right or wrong, or if they are both right in some way. It's very confusing and discouraging.

[@CocoaHerBeansness]

@@badwolf3618 so there's this thing called the patriarchy. it uses systemic misogyny. this leads to scenarios where men worry about getting their heartbroken on dates and women are worried they'll get raped and murdered. hope this helps.

[@silvermica]

I tried Bumble once - but there were no humans to talk to on that app - so I deleted the app and joined a band to play in. Now I see and talk to people all the time.

[@misskwannie]

Is this your first time on earth

[@silvermica]

@@misskwannie please tell no one

[@Zectifin]

I was single for a bit and I tried bumble, tindr, okcupid, and bbwdate ( think thats what it was called. I like plus size women.) Nobody ever messaged me on bumble, bbwdate sucked because you barely had any swipes in free mode so you could barely see anyone, tindr was all bots and barely had anyone to talk to. Okcupid was pretty nice and I talked to several nice people on there. Ultimately my ex and I got back together and I deleted them all. If we were to ever not work out I would dread dating again. If I had to I might try okcupid again, but its original website form where you filled out questionaires was the better form and I wish it would go back to that. The advice of "just go out and meet people!" is something I hate. I don't like that. I met my current partner through my roommate, he was friends with her and I ended up talking to her through AIM and we had similar interests and were both homebodies. Dating apps used to be good for the awkward stay at home types, but now everyone uses them. I wish there was a dating site for the anxiety ridden, autistic, and introverts to meet on that wasn't filled with the adventerous types looking to go party and whatnot, but that wouldn't be profitable.

[@uschurch]

@@misskwannie is this your first attempt at a pun?

[@godwinyo5206]

how do you find a band to play in?

[@Praisethesunson]

It is wild how every single dating site actively commodifies the women they depend on.

[@ryerye9019]

We did it to each other. The technology revealed unpleasant aspects of humanity that quickly arose in frontier spaces: commodification, instantaneous gratification, narcism, prejudice, deception, exploitation, compulsive addiction, etc.

[@TheWaross]

I mean, it commodifies both, but it makes the men pay most of it. If that's not commodification of men, idk what is

[@victorhugoeh974]

That's capitalism on the move!

[@TheWaross]

@roxyortiz8819 look, I understand it might be difficult for you to empathize with others and as such you have difficulties understanding perspective outside your own (so, men in this instance). It's OK, not everyone is great at that. But on dating apps, no one is forced to match with others. Everyone who uses dating apps commodifies themselves, both men and women equally. But due to the disparity in gender ratio, dating apps make men pay the most of the cost associated. But paying doesn't land them a match. They still have to commodify themselves and "sell" themselves to women as much as others. They just have the opportunity to "jump the line". No one has a gun to the head of women forcing her to swipe on the guy that pays. Unless you're telling me you have no agency?

[@chrizzlybear5565]

​@@TheWarossI think you nearly stumbled upon Roxy's point, but barely missed it: As you said, men are mostly the ones paying. They're paying for a commodity, namely women. Therefore, the dating platform commodify women by using them as a product to sell to men. Somewhat independently from that, we're commodifying ourselves, both men and women, by making a dating profile, which is basically an advertisement for us.

[@DKH712]

I hope we get a return to internet dating where you're matched with people based on your profile. Like, you fill in a bunch of questions, and then here's 10 or so people who are kinda similar to you. That would be great. The current approach of presenting endless choice - of which 99,9% isn't compatible with you anyway - inevitably leads to dating fatigue. I want a dating app to make dating simpler, not more complicated. I guess that's harder to make money from

[@joechip1232]

Yep, they discovered that incorporating the insights of gambling and gacha apps was more profitable than helping people find LTR's. People generally delete their dating apps when they find a partner.

[@noot-noot-pingu-noot-noot]

we should make matchmakers a career again, why have an algorithm do a job that clearly should be done by a person???

[@idekblah]

Matchmakers do exist still actually! But they are extremely expensive. As in thousands of dollars for services. I wish I was kidding.

[@logan3920]

Yeah, old okcupid was like that. I miss it 😢

[@Alltagundso]

You mean like OkCupid?

[@annaphallactic]

When I hear the term body count outside of the context of true crime, I feel a crushing sense of despair.

[@graeschnahmoffski5716]

But a somewhat funny crushing sense of despair!

[@edumazieri]

Was a bit shocked by that one too :D

[@graeschnahmoffski5716]

Sorry, just realized, do you mean you're more confortable with bodies being dead than bodies getting hooked up?

[@edumazieri]

@@graeschnahmoffski5716 Ok that was even more shocking

[@gnomesarerealgnometruther6688]

Yeah I would be too if I looked like that

[@PickleJello]

I'm not sure how Bumble came to the conclusion the hated part of Bumble was women sending the message first, not the 24 hour window to send the first message making users feel pressured.

[@My1es]

The 24 hour thing feels like it's to ensure daily use as well. FOMO. I never know when a user doesn't initiate contact because they're not interested or they're not on their bumble ever day - both green flags

[@Bleilock1]

​@@My1esthats some low self esteem

[@My1es]

@@Bleilock1 😸

[@Bleilock1]

@@My1es i think the limit as a concept is fine If one side has no power over action in conversation but has to wait the other side to initiate, a limit is nice tool for knowing the other side isnt really interested, made a mistake or isnt available anymore 2 weeks for that seem to me about right, but 24h is just ridiculous, its literally fomo extortion

[@kalliaslands9938]

The 24 hours is annoying but a good idea. Otherwise people are less motivated about each match. Men are more likely to send lazy/sexist first comments and women are more likely to ghost most of the matches they make. FOMO also plays a big part in getting people to overcome the awkwardness and discomfort of in person dating

[@OPontoéEsse]

Alice, I'm a male from Brasil and I'd like to praise you and your work. Not only you bring a lot of essential reflexions to the table of political and socioeconomic discussion, you do it in a very didactical way. I love your content and I learn so much from it! Thank you for existing and doing what you do! Hugs from South America!!!

[@dannyarcher6370]

Spotted the Lula voter!

[@MCKevin289]

Na França, eles descobrem que o avião foi inventado por Santos Dumont. Mas eles não dizem que ele é brasileiro. Dizem que ele é francês. Minha amigo estão brasileiro e minha namorada está brasileira também. Eles me disseram que maneira infalível de obter uma reposta de um brasileiro e “Bolsonaro é gostoso” kkkk.

[@raresmocanu1743]

In eastern Europe, moving west was seen as a ticket to paradise in the early 2000s. By the time I finished high-school, the economy shifted and I missed that train - now it's average both here and there. Feels the same with this. I'm a socially inept dude who got to 23 without any experience in dating or hookups. I finally got my shit together mentally, only to see that everyone has had their fill and their fun and their suffering and they're now over that stage. And so I missed another train. I'm probably not looking in the right places, but life just feels like a bunch of missed trains and a lot of preparation for something that always has a deadline shorter than the time it takes me to prepare for it.

[@johannageisel5390]

I think you're probably better off searching for a good partner than a hookup. There are lots of women without much experience too, who are looking for somebody they have a deep connection to.

[@dazykuri]

Hello, this is relatable. I would like to say that you didn't miss the train, you just caught a car with fewer passengers. Good luck.

[@user-sx9hq7qwert]

If all the trains are going to a terrible place, missing them is a good thing.

[@jeffersonclippership2588]

My parents went to the US, where I was born, from eastern Europe. For whatever it's worth, I can tell you that many of us, including me, missed the same trains. Maybe we should restructure society so that people who don't do everything right in their first 18 years aren't punished for it for the rest of their lives but idk if people are ready for that conversation yet.

[@nyahhbinghi]

you will learn this when you get older - other people are mostly just problems - avoiding people in general is a decent way to stay healthy

[@CaraMarie13]

I typically spend a while between relationships. I was single for nearly five years after my previous relationship, and I remember how great I felt even though I had no sex during that time. No shade on my current relationship because it's great the majority of the time. But I really learned to love being alone during those periods, and I truly believe it's why my current relationship is going so well years in. The only thing I hated was the comments from some friends constantly congratulating me for being brave. As if I was doing a cross-country trip on my own. But people really struggle with understanding that I don't just "have a good time" with just anyone. Casual sex has never done it for me and even though it's gotten me labeled as a prude, am more than ok with that. I will say, i tried bumble after my last relationship because everyone was pressuring me to "not be alone". I left after a week because I felt incredibly shallow looking at pictures of man and a little information on their interest and saying to myself, "let me guve this one a try". I could not move past the discomfort of judging a mans potential on that alone so i never developed a curiosity for anyone that would push me to asking to meet in person.

[@afruitlesshippo]

There's the one healthy and well adjusted person on the internet. I hope you have a nice day :)

[@AlexandarShmex]

God bless you sister, I was happy to read a mature outlook. I hope your boyfriend and you have a very long, happy relationship.

[@PinPinKula]

thats cool, but why didnt you also mention you are not really attractive to most ppl? You guys always seem to miss to mention that part. lol

[@mahogara]

Personally, the thought process behind the ads is the very reason that discourages me from using the dating apps. That very ideal of using the dating apps as a hookup site. Even if you specifically specified that you're not looking for hookups (because you find it repulsive to get it on with someone you barely even know or feel something toward), you would still somehow end up with people who expect you to put out on the very first meet up/date. If not, you're somehow guilted into feeling bad for leading them on. Even though it's not the dating site's fault, it's baffling to see Bumble showcasing the same mindset as some men who view women on dating sites as a catalogue listing of desperate and easy products, looking to get laid.

[@vaska00762]

The problem with dating apps (in general) is that they've come to monopolise the way people go about dating and finding people to have relationships with. Many bars/pubs/clubs are either too loud for certain people, not accessible, too far away, or the fact that they're places to drink alcohol discourage a lot of people who don't want to, or cannot drink. Where else do people find relationships? At the workplace? At places of religious gathering?

[@awsambdaman]

vaska00762 Workplace is taboo and people don’t go to church anymore. If I was single I’d try to meet someone at church and I wish we would meet people at work but there’s so many rules and stuff and a lot of people take their drama to work. If everyone was mature it could work

[@yveje9720]

I have no skin in the game since I’m not single. But I personally don’t read the line about celibacy to be an endorsement of casual hook ups. In my mind, a vow celibacy is not having sex and not dating romantically / not getting married. I don’t equate having sex with hooking up because a lot of people have sex in a relationship. And this probably speaks to the wider issue of perception because most people falsely believe that sex is predominantly happening casually when the exact opposite is true, most sex is happening in long-term relationships in marriages. The rise in sexlessness for young Americans is due to the fact that more of them are single. Hooking up was never the main way people were having sex even at the height of the sexual revolution. Maybe it’s the movies maybe it’s TV that has us all confused about this.

[@Bleilock1]

​@@yveje9720 i mean then again there is the worlds oldest proffession for casual hookups...

[@letzte_maahsname]

​@@yveje9720 It's definitely the age old mindset of "haha, now that you're married, you're not gonna have sex anymore because sex is solely for procreation and our marriage was arranged anyway soooo...". Some myths die hard.

[@vaska00762]

Aren't Dating Apps the thing people turn to because of loneliness? Making new friendships as an adult is something that feels next to impossible at times, and it's not because we necessarily lack the spaces - it's our lifestyles. I could meet people at work, but they have their own lives to get back to and chores to do when they get home, not forgetting anyone who has children they prioritise. People seek out relationships because that's the way many people have found as a way to cope with the loneliness, but at the same time, the lack of platonic friendships, and its deprioritisation in adulthood doesn't help either. Especially if you move to a big city, or move to a different country, you have no social safety net there - you have to start your social life from scratch. I know Bumble introduced their subsection for finding friendships, but does it really work? What even are the alternatives?

[@Jazzmaster1992]

It seems for many people, their relationship becomes their entire life. They spend most of their time working, or with their SO. The older you get, the more common this becomes as people settle down, buy houses and start families with their spouse. The advice singles get to expand their social circle almost feels like a slap in the face, when you realize most people who are in relationships basically disappear off the face of the earth for everyone but their partner and their job. I'm not saying it should be that way, but socializing is just so difficult right now and I don't blame people for "cashing out" on a relationship the moment they find one.

[@AtheistEve]

I would join local groups of people doing voluntary or creative work in the community. Just to find like-minded people. And go from there.

[@Dave102693]

@@Jazzmaster1992or they find a church or mosque to go to to fill that void

[@CatarinaStone]

I'm single but mostly not looking to date right now and so I've thought about using the apps to find friends. Bumble friends locks you in to find friends of the same gender. I'm a bi trans woman, this makes so little sense to me I'm actually kind of scared of what kind of people I'd find there

[@peznino1]

​@@CatarinaStonemost lesbian women are furious about your type on their lesbian dating apps from what i hear...they really get annoyed and frustrated apparently...what do u say to them?

[@misterwachulochulo5262]

the soul of everything is destroyed when capitalism touches it, nothing can exist but the quest for money

[@jamesl1806]

Solzhenitsyn: 'Hold by beer'

[@DiegoRockLoiro]

cap

[@Bojoschannel]

The internet before 2015 is the perfect proof of this, such an endless stream of creativity and possibility destroyed by a few greedy corporations

[@butterkaffee910]

It definitely destroyed patriarchy

[@Zectifin]

ok cupid was a nice website and I met some nice people on there in the 2000s. I tried the app version when I was single in 2019 and it was much worse. Much better than every other dating app I tried, but still worse. I was thinking, it would be nice if there was a dating app/website that was for the socially awkward, the anxious, the neurodivergent. No overflowing with the adventurous party people looking to hook up. That wouldn't be a good plan businesswise though. You want as many people to join as possible to maximize profits. Capitalism ruins everything. even the internet.

[@Paolo_Naour]

My english teacher recommened you to my class, and I really find myself enjoying your videos, you are a very well spoken person

[@antraks794]

That is a hell of a good teacher! As one myself, it is encouraging to see students actually listening to some of the things we say. Thank you for this :)

[@rararazzamatazz]

While her content is good and I am not commenting on that, it is a sad state of affairs that the linguistic studies have been completely co-opted by feminist theory and marxism... What use does an English language teacher have talking about feminist theory or any social or economic theory for that matter??? It is simply them taking themselves far far too seriously. Teach writing narrative, syntax and grammar and leave the rest.

[@MisterPyOne]

@@rararazzamatazz In my country it's illegal for teachers to propagate their political or religious believes

[@faustoferrari4303]

Your English teacher should be fired, forthwith.

[@faustoferrari4303]

@@antraks794 That's very modest of you, calling yourself a hell of a good teacher. However, I do approve of the implication that your students do not listen to a word you say. there is still hope for the youth of the world!

[@jonathanmelhuish4530]

20:29 Damn I wish KZbin would let us say the words that grown-ups use

[@Alltagundso]

The worst thing is that even in real life people now say "cuddling" when they mean sex. 🤦🏽‍♀️

[@kelethrailkill]

Amen. I watch a lot of KZbin, and the extreme censorship this platform pushes through it's demonetization policies has made me actively start to seek alternatives. Nothing good can come from a society where the word "s-x" is banned. While it would be bad enough by itself, it's not just the "bad words" list that's the output of these policies either. But much worse, is the massive chilling effect it has on the very topics content creators are even willing to risk taking on. KZbin has disproportionate impact on how and what society offline thinks it can or can't discuss. I guarantee there has been an noticeable shift in the Overton window of certain important topics due to how difficult it would be to get paid for working on those topics on KZbin. The idea that we can not choose to enjoy art or ideas without listening to the "radio edit" version is maddening. And the idea that living in a self-imposed "radio edit" society is correct or right, is cancer to a capitalist democracy.

[@sadiemakesmesmile]

@@kelethrailkill I was just watching and reading comments on a Eugenia Cooney info channel... and apparently Y Toobe (and all platforms) allow her to be online in all her sick glory, but she CANNOT say she has an Eating Disorder (even if she wanted to). So we are allowed to see all the aspects of this disturbing disorder, but not allowed to say or know it is A DISORDER and how to prevent it. Poor kids... thats all i can say. It is setting them up. HUGELY.

[@pavelandreev4727]

@@kelethrailkill It is again the capitalism that's at fault. the creators cannot afford to use certain words because they cannot afford to lose the revenue and go starving or " go do something else that's useful". So they have a choice - comply to the algorithms or resign to a tiny audience that will never expand and will never be enough to provide a sustainable living...

[@slvrcobra1337]

I died laughing at that part because outta nowhere she was all like "sksksksksksk"

[@jibarabicha4853]

Back to the drawing board. Humans are still human and need face to face interactions. We are not robots, so an app really takes all of those elements needed for attraction and reduces people to a pixel.

[@damianalejandro6959]

Sure then explain to me how I met people in dating apps

[@JimJamTheAdmin]

​@@damianalejandro6959what part of this comment said that you never met anyone through dating apps?

[@ChasmChaos]

@@damianalejandro6959 🤦

[@lonestarr1490]

We shouldn't stop at dating apps. Tear down social media with it, for it's the same thing.

[@niax782]

Face to face interactions can occur outside of dating, IJS.

[@selena1731]

As my mother as always said "mejor sóla que mal acompañada" better to be alone than with bad company

[@SantiagoGarza-bg9wp]

Every latino sais that, not just your mom. There's even a song

[@josealejandroabreudone9449]

@@SantiagoGarza-bg9wp yeah so what, Her reference is her mother, ever had some of it ?

[@SantiagoGarza-bg9wp]

@@josealejandroabreudone9449 no :(

[@czarkusa2018]

"Why pressure women into doing something they don't want to do?" That was the whole point of Bumble, to force them to write anything at all, usually "Hey", at an introduction. They always could and never wanted to.

[@screew708]

They never had to because they could always rely on men taking the first step. Pretty sure the majority of men would also prefer not being the one to take the first time either but they don't really have a choice if they are seeking a female partner.

[@yeehawneehaw5215]

It always rubbed me the wrong way that they decided putting all the work in the woman’s hands is the move. As if that’s gonna stop men from being creepy after we shoot our shot or something

[@brianmeen2158]

Correct and it gave women a taste of what it’s like to have to initiate all of the conversations. Many found out just how mind numbing and frustrating it is and seem to have complained to get it changed. . There’s not a guy out there actually likes having to initiate on dating apps - we just realize that someone has to do it for the dating process to happen

[@AW-uv3cb]

@@brianmeen2158 when I (a woman) was on bumble a few years ago, I actually appreciated that feature. Not because I don't like being approached by men , but because it was a clear rule that everyone knew. Either I initiate, or it doesn't happen at all. And because men also knew that, me initiating wasn't treated as a sign of just wanting to get laid or being desperate or whatever. It was just something that had to happen to have any interaction and there was a pleasant clarity to it. I'd feel the same if there was a rule that only men initiate. When both sides can initiate, both can wait for the other party to do it and it gets frustrating. (One of the reasons why dating apps feel so alien to the way people actually interact in the real world...)

[@lonestarr1490]

Nah, it has never been anything but a way of getting into the pockets of desperate men. Because of course you can pay for being able to text first.

[@RebisOfTheseus]

I genuinely appreciate how you’ve framed this as individualistic vs systemic. It really helps frame a lot of what I try to say but haven’t been able to do so correctly.

[@yoyochan6668]

I love how she takes a simple topic like bumble then uses it as a base and goes deep in on the theory,

[@peznino1]

But can you follow her arguments. I feel like one would need a degree in sociology and or feminist studies or other to follow this video. It's way over my head as a pleb.

[@nuklearboysymbiote]

​@@peznino1 there's some level of assumed background knowledge to be sure, but I believe in you! It's ok if you don't get it the first time around

[@ChasmChaos]

@@peznino1 I'm glad I wasn't the only one 😅. TBH, she provided a lot of resources. Of course I don't have the time or brains to read all that and of course I can't judge 1 way or another if she was reaching or was legit based on my current knowledge. It's still a start having gone from knowing nothing to knowing something (which may or may not be legit). I think this is how it is in every field of study. A layman has no way of knowing whether vaccines are totally safe or whether government surveillance is completely thwarted if you take some precautions. You have to trust some specialists at some level in order to actually be able to function.

[@RachelApril26]

@@peznino1I disagree 😅 but I also spent a lot of my formative years on tumblr in the radical feminist area…

[@chrystals.4376]

The problem though it's just not that deep. It was a terrible & cringe ad campaign that insulted its target audience, and got the backlash it deserved. Cappelle decided to blame people who are anti sex instead of reading the room.

[@AODProds]

As a man I have always noticed this trend of women not really wanting to instigate relationships, yet older/conservative generations have always just advocated for the status quo of "Ohh just go talk to her" without much more thought to it. I have always wondered, in the absence of men instigating relationships, how demisexual and even ace most women lean towards. I think it's more than most men want to realize. I recognize I'm just a man so perhaps my opinion/perspective is not exactly warranted here, but I have definitely observed this, especially in stem fields. Theoretically, if the internalized gender norms of our societal consciousness were wiped overnight, how likely would women want to pursue men in an environment where the negative and internalized social stigmas of women pursuing men are absent? The thought that most women may very well just want to live their lives independently pursuing their own interests and getting what little kicks they want off of a magic wand is terrifying to men. I think a lot of women have come to the conclusion that men at large are very immobile in their thinking about these topics and it is an inevitability in their experience that men will subconsciously put gendered expectations on them in a relationship no matter how feminist-leaning men claim to be. For this reason, women seem to be much more comfortable with a life of celibacy and view it as a relief from all the unhealthy men/relationships holding them back, whereas men are terrified of the idea of it and have been socially conditioned to think that it is the ultimate sign of true failure in life as a man. For this reason, I've seen most men approach this topic with an alarmist fillintheblank-pill attitude taking it personally and interweaving the age-old shaming notions of "you're going to be a crazy old cat lady" and "eventually you'll need a man" when in reality these spiteful jabs come from a place of absolute terror and wanting to re-establish control over women finding their independence/power. As a man, you have two options. You can either fight it, continue to try to instigate relationships, and cling to traditional/conservative notions of gendered expectations rooted in sexual conquest equaling success in life. Or you can surrender to the void and become at peace with the single life, disassociate sexual conquest from your meaning in life, and let women choose how they want to live and be undisturbed in the pursuit of their own goals in life. No pills, no shaming, no underlying nefarious dogmatic prescriptions of ideology, just simply letting them choose how they want to live their lives.

[@advsreeharivs]

The same counter culture of celibacy exists for men also.

[@brianmeen2158]

It would be equally as interesting to go Ask 1,000 men if they would still pursue women for dating and relationships if they had no sex drive .. I bet many of the guys(if they truly gave it some thought) would admit that they most likely would not still pursue women(for serious relationships) if the sex was not in the equation.

[@tricatame7427]

Best comment here barely getting noticed. Exactly sir, everyone underestimates how uninterested women actually are. There is a like a small window of interest for women typically in their twenties when their biology may fool them into making a baby and thus needing male input and becayse they are more gullible inexperienced and do want progeny and family and to be loved and supported while childbirth absolutely makes tgem more vulnerable and needy. But soon as that phase is over, women do realize that was just a phase. We emotionally discard the men tge way they physically discard after the deed. Sadly, as men get older they need women more while women need them less. Thats what all the panic induced insult hurlings from men are. The panic over tge absence of much needed nursing and other misc social services they cant get from otger men.

[@rozap_8356]

Isn't this why there is pressure on men to provide? I think you make a lot of good points, but omit the part about attraction to provisions. If (as a man or a woman or neither) you possess some skill, resource, or interest that someone wants from you, they pursue it. I think that's why a lot of women go after men initially. And I don't think it's necessarily a shallow thing, everybody seeks security to a certain extent. It's a little unfortunate that the way out of the problem you describe is so traditionally gendered (man as a provider) but historically it has worked. Obviously it can create a problem long term as you're tied to your partner and less independent but that's the reality of living with other humans. I definitely wouldn't have the great life I have without my wife, and she wouldn't have it without me, so dependency is not necessarily a dirty word if it's consenting and non abusive. I think the answer here is that there is no answer for everyone. I think the "woman hating gamer" men and the "men are obsolete" radfems drive a lot of discourse but they are not actually serious people.

[@badwolf3618]

Women's lack of initiation has very little to do with "negative stigma". It is almost entirely due to one of the following reasons: 1. They lack the confidence and/or self-esteem to put themselves out there. 2. Their ego doesn't allow them to put themselves in a situation where they be rejected. 3. They want the ego boost of a man pursuing her, whether or not she is actually attracted to her, and also the ego boost of rejecting him. 4. Given how many women seem to be attracted to an egotistical man (sorry..... A "confident" man), being subtle and ambiguous when they signal attraction to a man is intentional because only an egotistical man will assume that brief eye contact or a compliment from a woman means that she is attracted to him. Women's behaviors seem to often purposefully select for egotistical men. Throwing out subtle hints and then hoping he is egotistical enough to pick up on them and approach her will achieve that purpose. So, no, women aren't waiting to be approached because of negative stigma. They are waiting to be approached because it gives them all the power in the situation and/or protects their fragile egos. Women too often will blame stigma or other social forces for all their behaviors, when in reality they usually know exactly what their doing it and aren't doing it for any reason other than their own self-interest. So please don't fall for this "we only do it because society told us too!" nonsense.

[@AlexanderSkinnerVids]

Congrats to the Bumble marketing team, they managed to be creepier than they guys on the app. (Bad joke, but still)

[@Bishop3k]

Creepy guys? Ohhh, you mean the majority, who is invisible. Gotcha.

[@AlexanderSkinnerVids]

@@Bishop3kshh, I’m just weaponizing their language against them. The women who started bumble would totally overuse the word “creep” to the point where it means absolutely nothing.

[@Pratt11]

Bumble creepier than my uncles and ex-home boys 🗣️🔥

[@GenericUrbanism]

What an accomplishment. /s

[@anniee5487]

real

[@andyjblosser]

I think the backlash also reveals the hubristic bossiness of advertisers. The goal of advertisers is to become master of our souls, and they reveal this cocky mentality when they go beyond telling us what shoes to wear to commanding our dating lives.

[@daaara]

very informative video. Maybe part of sexual empowerment is liberation from feeling less than because you have too much sex or not enough sex. In that lens, incels/femcels and promiscuous people are being crushed by the same boot of societal expectation.

[@KasunGamage]

Can you explain what's the point of the video..?(With respect, I don't get it)

[@lexp6099]

@@KasunGamage Their last sentence is the point: the system is terrible, but choosing political celibacy doesn't change it, and only provides the individual with a sense of moral superiority because they think they've beat the system, when they're not actually doing anything to change it. A lot of people seem to be missing the point that if you're not interested in sex, hookup culture or anything else like them, this video is not talking about you. If you're interested in sex but choose celibacy solely because of society''s views on it, you're still upholding purity culture. And traditional views on gender roles and sex hurt all sexes and genders.

[@seabreeze4559]

@@lexp6099 a choice for self care isn't anything about purity

[@My_defeat_is_assured]

The dating app fatigue/failure is a referendum on the fatal flaw of the techoptimism so characteristic of the aughts more broadly. That is, that through apps things like social isolation could be fixed or that apps should be incorporated into all social relationships. Since no one likes dating apps, the question becomes do we even need this thing.

[@damianalejandro6959]

Yes. Except winners like you Casanova

[@AndyAlegria]

I think dating apps have a market, even if they are not used for dating at all, as entertainment.

[@Isinlor]

I loved OkCupid back in 2015. I could look for nerdy women that are pretty much impossible to find in real life. That's how I found my girlfriend and we are 9 years together.

[@hangukhiphop]

also doesn't fix the age-old problem of leading a horse to water lmao

[@crashb800]

I think we need to do more work in investigation the idea of men being sexual actors seeking out women and women being passive objects of desire and particularly how our understanding of heterosexuality and our cultural institutions seemingly refuse to interrogate this. I find, for myself as a guy, that it feels like I have to be the one initiating everything whether I want to or not because I'll never be with anyone unless I don't. I imagine there are plenty of reasons why women don't approach that aren't based in sexual attraction, but I don't really know the reasons all that well. My ideal, for now, is that anyone should be able to approach anyone, and that the person being approached should be able to say no. What I mean by this is that women could approach men or men could approach men or anything else and it's fine. I guess my biggest annoyance with guy-girl dating is the fact that guys are placed into the leader role and girls are placed into the follower role pretty much regardless of whether is suits them or not. I obviously placed this discussion within a giant binary, and I think there's something to be said about how the erotic standard is one person leads and the other follows. I'm sure there are other ways of doing relationships. Point and case, sexual liberation is not really about having more sex, but finding the ways in which sex and courting are intertwined with patriarchy and exploring other options.

[@fairywingsonroses]

As a woman, the reason I don't approach men (even when I'm in a committed realationship with them) is because men will almost always take or expect more than is offered, and many get upset when women set boundaries on what is being offered. If you offer to hold hands, they want to put their whole arm around you. If you offer to make out, they want the full hands-on experience as well. If a woman says yes to sex once, they're expected to say yes every time. Even a casual conversation often turns into a request for more. As a woman, I feel like it's never enough. Even in committed relationships, I'm often faced with this dynamic of the man expecting more when more is not being offered, and a lot of men take the rejection personally, even when the reasons for the rejection have nothing to do with them (i.e. I had a long day, and now I just want space). While many men do respect the word, no; it doesn't change the fact that the expectation is still there; the feelings of rejection are still there, and quite frankly, it's exhausting to try to navigate. It's just easier to not approach men in the first place knowing ahead of time that you will either have to put firm boundaries in place and hold them against a constant barrage of begging, manipulating, coercion, etc, OR be prepared to give more than you want to offer. Both take an immense amount of mental and emotional energy and take away from the more permenant and nuanced parts of establishing/keeping relationships. As a woman, I feel like there is never a balance between what is expected (especially in terms of sex and intimacy) and the actual resources and experiences that each partner has to offer. I often find myself wishing that men would tone down their expectations for sex and intimacy and just appreicate the moment for what it is, even if it's just a casual conversation. It doesn't always need to be more in order to be fulfilling.

[@clementwee4460]

@@fairywingsonroses Then tell women not to judge men for "prowess" then, and all these sources of stress will be gone. Men are stressed too, because women judge them on "prowess". But when women judge on "prowess", it is euphemized as "satisfaction" and "fulfillment" instead. Men just can't win ... You can't even accept people accepting no. They have to "not feel rejection" in order for you to feel "safe". But hey, you ARE rejecting them, aren't you?

[@Pete_xp]

The whole thing's f*cked, unfortunately.

[@agapitoliria]

Your comment is right, the first answer is right... They are kind of a cycle. If I'm expected to "lead" because the other person will take a passive, distanced role, any kind of step the woman takes will feel like a "oh so I should lead this way" which is f up for everyone involved. This is what patriarchy means really.

[@lonestarr1490]

​@@fairywingsonroses Thank you for comment. Reading it was an enlightening experience for me. For once, it points out possible roots for the conflicts I faced in my previous relationships. But I also noticed a swelling rage in my stomach reading it, fueled by a terror of rejection that, I reckon, is always there under the surface. When my mind wanders I sometimes have mixtures of daydreams and intrusive thoughts, that women just don't want anything of me and that there's nothing I can do about it; that there's nothing I can do to earn the intimacy I crave. And it must come from a place that is tremendously old and deeply ingrained in my brain, for it resembles the experience of being treated unfairly as a very small child. Like the world is going to end because you won't get what you want. I know that, on a rational level all the points you're making are valid and fair. I know that I have no right of feeling crushed by it. But I can't help it and I really have to reflect on why all of this is that way.

[@jamesgrow2463]

I’m always impressed by your content. You decompose topics so well, you articulate your analysis and ideas brilliantly. Viewing your content is always such a delight.

[@TheBoringAddress]

As someone who -after several years dealing with crippling anxiety- finally feels like putting himself out there again on the dating scene... it feels like that scene in Community when Troy returns with the pizzas. I loved Bumble's main feature, more so as someone who is probably on the spectrum and is substantially better at repartee in written form... perhaps that was their biggest blind spot, their tragic hubris: They thought they were revolutionizing dating and empowering women with their white feminist crap, when they should've just sold themselves as a dating app for anxious people.

[@TheBoringAddress]

I have no idea why that sentence ended up with a strikethrough but it works.

[@czarkusa2018]

1:06 "Why pressure women into doing something they don't want to do?" That was the whole point of Bumble, to force them to write anything at all, usually "Hey", at an introduction. They always could and never wanted to.

[@nielskorpel8860]

"A dating app for anxious people." Me: confronts the fact that I am creating a Bumble profile because the thought of women approaching me, and being able to disengage otherwise, soothes some deep emotions I don't want to explain on the internet." Damn I feel called out.

[@MisterPyOne]

@@nielskorpel8860 Don't get your hopes up, if you are a guy chances are you get no matches or texts

[@lament22]

why are you french

[@redgentleman2412]

Gave me a good laugh 😂

[@Lily-ni5po]

Better question, why aren't you?

[@derp.p]

@@Lily-ni5po I’m at least 1/16th French do I count

[@saumitra6711]

hakim use your real account!

[@yohaneschristianp]

@@saumitra6711Hakim in disguise lol 😂

[@Ryza_d]

"Moralising tendencies in social movements. Is it productive?" I'm taking this as another reminder to touch grass, stop fixating on gate-keepy leftist in-fighting on socials, and do productive organising instead. Thanks comrade. Another dope video, as always.

[@MrKoalaburger]

The only place I see so much leftist infighting is online. Never seen it irl.

[@rafeverao4105]

I know this is a regular part of your research and video production, but thank you for always showing and citing the texts you refer to -- as someone relatively new to feminist theory, it's good to have a contemporary reading list for these things. Plus my university has some of Firestone's work, so yay free access

[@Vladd7]

“I go on the apps to get a self esteem boost” said no man ever. This privilege is exclusive to women.

[@seabreeze4559]

ah yes the privilege of being potentially stalked weirdly, a lot of women complain men never actually wanna meet up, sometimes they are actually married secretly so yes esteem boosts are a big reason

[@TheHanyuuuuu]

It's so great on dating apps for women, so many privileges that there 3-4 times less women on dating apps then men. They just don't want too much of a good thing! 🤣

[@LeadHerring]

There are pros and cons to how girls use dating apps but having watched a lot of my female friends use them I'd say the cons far outweigh the pros. I do agree though for most guys that there aren't even those positives when it comes to apps though

[@Shwanson4]

Eh, it can be a self esteem boost… I’ve met some scary women online too.

[@PutkisenSetä]

@@seabreeze4559 The men don't wanna meet up because you're being catfished, doofus.

[@andiralosh2173]

Separatism always devolves into culty purity politics. It's a space where the leaders define the righteous path, alienating followers from the broader society and it also sheilds the broader culture from the those most critical who are happy to leave, black hats for all involved

[@phoenixfritzinger9185]

I kinda feel like it’s the coward’s way out too. Like just going and retreating into your turtle shell instead of like fighting for any sort of change.

[@f1mbultyr]

@@phoenixfritzinger9185 And? People are fucking tired. Let them check out!

[@andiralosh2173]

@@f1mbultyr fair enough. I think there's a middle path for affinity work. Moral judgement for ineffectual praxis certainly doesn't't change anyone's mind. We can only really lead by example, and there are a plurality of paths to needed work

[@KD-_-]

Women's separatism gives me almost as many 🚩 as the MGTOW guys do. Interacting with the proponents of either is generally unpleasant at best and I try to avoid it. Though I think political lesbianism is actually more crazy than most men's incel ideologies. You don't see them actively trying to present as gay to uphold their "solidarity." It is funny though when one with a large social media following gets a girlfriend and everyone melts down about the "betrayal."

[@lexp6099]

PREACH

[@Alias_Anybody]

Political lesbianism doesn't work, because you can't manifest your sexuality. Celibacy however is a different topic.

[@pollysshore2539]

They came out of the gate demanding that hetero women leave their husbands, get rid of their sons, stop dating and sleeping with men, shaving, wearing makeup, doing their hair, wearing flattering clothes, saying this, doing that, thinking this.. and become lesbians for the feminist cause. That? Or at the very least call yourself a political lesbian and remain celibate in solidarity. No, it did not go over well at all. The fact that they had joined in a legislative alliance with Christian Nationalist politicians, and reduced the large amount of work done during the sexual revolution to a joke also did not go over well. Removing Christian Nationalists legislation, that is… removing several harsh social and legal punishments for having consensual sex outside wedlock, for being attracted to someone that was the same sex as you, for being attracted to someone of a different race … on and on … was reduced to “teaching girls to have sex like men and do XXX”. Unfortunately the same thing is happening in this video. The backlash to this spawned the sex positive feminists movement, which was also primarily focused on combating the legislative alliance between separatists and Christian Nationalists and the terrible rights eroding legislation it spawned.

[@pollysshore2539]

Separatism is also not feminism. They might have some shared goals but it’s a different movement all together. One that also sought legislative power over women bodies and decisions. A look at how separatists have treated adult sex workers gives a glimpse into how they would treat women at large. Separatists have no problem defining their own sexuality - and they shouldn’t - but they have a problem with allowing others to do the same. They want to define it for them and control every aspect of it. They are notoriously authoritarian and socially conservative (believing in harsh social and legal punishments as a way to gain and maintain control over others). It was a rather terrible thing to do to feminists that were fighting for their right to be with who they wanted on their own terms. Reducing largely successful - therefore largely supported - feminist movements to a stereotypical joke was r a great thing either. *Historically you will find the majority of feminists attempting to remove Christian Nationalist/white supremacist legislation that controlled others bodies and attempted to control what happens in their bedrooms, and separatists working with nationalists to create legislation that controls peoples bodies and what happens in their bedrooms. We are not talking about obvious crimes, here. Everyone sought various restrictions for crimes.

[@KD-_-]

It's interesting the degree to which we're expected to put on soft gloves for such a crazy ideology because they're on the same ish side. There's an implication there for conversion therapy with the idea that you can convert sexuality, and I'd expect it to be less acceptable.

[@amaurylannes]

Celibacy is still just a form of separatism

[@pollysshore2539]

@@amaurylannes It is, and it won’t take off. It never has. Some people might be claiming celibacy during a dry spell but unless they join a convent it will go out the window quickly. Human nature ensures it.

[@s.e.studios1386]

I think Alice is right on point. My problem with the anti sexual revolution crowd is not that they dislike hook-up culture but they see chastity and 'saving' yourself for marriage as the opposite of hook up culture when often it has the same motivations. They hold on to their virginity to sell it (covered by a spiritual cope) and then criticise Only Fans. They say people are obsessed by the status of notch count but they are equally obsessed by notch count just in the opposite direction and still a life choice driven by status concerns.

[@pouchika5672]

Or maybe some of us don't wanna have sex with random men and wish for a more intimate sex life that hook-up culture doesn't provide. Believe it or not, some people actually want to have only one partner.

[@MegaRBN14]

Some of us see sex as an intimate act that should only happen within the context of a relationship with a special person, not necessarily one partner for life or nothing until marriage (I don't consider myself conservative in any way, btw). If you fuck any random person you barely know you're devaluating your intimacy. Also, it's quite irresponsible. I am concerned by the massive amount of people who would have sex without talking about politics, abortion, religion or economics. Accidental pregnancy with an anti-abortion religious nutjob would ruin any man's life.

[@inbb510]

I am "obsessed" by the notch count because a high number is essentially a proxy for promiscuity. And I don't want to date a promiscuous woman that has slept around with 10+ men and who has probably picked up STIs on the way. As many replies to your comment have said, it turns out people actually want a more fulfilling and deeper connection than just a one night stand.

[@myca9322]

not all the responses to your comment proving it correct! unfortunately the kind of person who makes a preemptive decision about the 'type' of relationship they want to engage with, is unlikely to understand what it takes to deeply bond with another. pure, genuine love can come from surprising places. and its cultivation needs intentional care. by closing oneself off to possibilities, one only limits their own ability to see things as they are and develop their own capacities to care.

[@CosmicErrata]

​@@pouchika5672This.

[@LiquidDemocracyNH]

Second of all: I can't think of anything more ridiculous than saying "first *they* say don't be a slut. Then *they* say where did you all go?, don't stop using our dating app." *They* are two different groups of people. The group of people slut-shaming, and the group of people who started an app oriented around female-empowerment (debateably) are very different people. If they're contradicting each other it's because they're not the same group of people. When you should actually be concerned is when ONE well-defined group starts saying contradictory things

[@kellycowley3535]

@LiquidDemocracyNH No many men (not just men but usually men) do both of these things and don't realize the hypocrisy in doing so. They call women sl*ts if they 'sleep around' and claim their 'body count' should be low but then call them 'crazy cat lady' and 'entitled b*tches' if they dare to not be interested in dating. These are the types of men she is talking about when she says *they* .

[@hangukhiphop]

Following from that, it would make sense to choose which group you're willing to please and give the other group the middle finger. However, I suspect this popular complaint stems from insecurity rather than anyone else's judgment.

[@kellycowley3535]

@@hangukhiphop I replied to this comment pointing out that many men (not just men but mostly men) join both of these two groups.

[@ManBearPiglet]

This conflating of different groups is an error made repeatedly throughout the video. She says marxist ideas were suppressed during the cold war without any recognition that half of the western world during the cold war was vehemently pro-marxist, which is how those ideas survived. She also conflates capitalism and patriarchy, these are not one system but two systems both operating in our society, and they are not always aligned. Capitalism, for example, benefits greatly from women entering the workforce and double-income childless same-sex couple households, that's lots more consumer debt and tax money to exploit, but patriarchy opposes both of these because they decrease the relative status of men within the society, which is why we see the direction of society resolving to a synthesis of these two competing forces, where the prevailing idea of a "good woman" is one who works a job AND raises children AND keeps a man sexually satisfied, but then regardless if she does all of these or none of these, there's always a different group of people who want to control her who will criticise her for making her own choices.

[@hangukhiphop]

@@kellycowley3535 it appears my response to this weeks ago got removed lol

[@Nyingmaba]

social movements that treat all men as upholders of tyrannies will fail. Men in poverty live in misery. Some of the movements mentioned in the video seem to treat all men as these powerful tyrants without consideration for intersectionality. And intersectionality is vital. Women still face many structural and societal issues, but there are issues in which society has changed to suit their interests to the detriment of men. As someone who has spent way too many years, in too many programs, at too many universities, I've seen that higher education is often female-centric, for example. And that is bore out by statistics. Women attain more degrees, especially graduate degrees, for example. This is not to say that this is a bad thing - rather, it is to say that reality is more nuanced than it may seem in online echo chambers. Movements like those described in the video seem myopic, self-interested, and unnuanced. Beyond that, the unfairness of treating men as a unified class of immoral people just breeds resentment. It won't win. It will just push more people into the arms of the right-wing, as it did in Korea and many other countries, which will likely lead to more power being taken away from women. Literally the only way to make social progress is to be empathetic to all, even those you see as oppressors (especially if it happens that many of them are more impoverished than you).

[@NJGuy1973]

A poor man has way more in common with a poor woman than he has with a rich man.

[@melitajay]

Well said

[@screew708]

This 100%.

[@mikolasstrajt3874]

Note that South Korea is very very different in so many ways from Western / European world. They get more radical movements because their situation is more radical.

[@BigTylt]

@@mikolasstrajt3874 South Korea is several steps closer to a Cyberpunk future than any of us

[@Pratt11]

I once tried dating on bumble, as a guy, this was the most...average app ever? Like I really got it for the “Women initiate convo since women empowerment” stuff because I'm mostly awkward and was tired of tinder, but like...people ghost a lot on this app, LIKE A LOT!!! (Maybe its just my place but yeah)

[@cheaxel]

"Hi"

[@Pratt11]

​@@cheaxelHi indeed, Chea

[@vic44rd]

@@cheaxel I never used it myself but a woman sent a friend of mine "." as the first message lmao. Just a period. A lot of the women using the app really did not get the memo.

[@ryerye9019]

80/20 Rule. 20% of users engage in 80% of the conversations. I've had the longest conversations on Bumble, but neither of us bothered to ask each other out. Something about Bumble is a total buzz kill, pun intended.

[@notnullnotvoid]

Same, 100% of women's first messages were some variant of "Hey" and then you're expected to start the conversation from there just like on every other app. "Women message first" makes literally no difference to anyone's experience lmao

[@quantenmoi]

Love your content. However, I reject the dichotomy you present between hookup culture and purity culture. While purity culture certainly exists, I think the predominant paradigm is monogamy culture. I personally feel like there’s a strong connection between my D and my heart. And I think many other men feel this way too. Certainly, a lot of women do. So, rejecting promiscuity (for lack of a better word) isn’t necessarily buying into some normative patriarchal structure. I think it is primarily people recognizing their natural inclination to connect sex and love. Of course, there’s a spectrum, and not everyone feels this way. But I think most people do.

[@Staenhus]

Isn't monogamy just another aspect of purity culture though? I mean, there is a pretty strong link between sexual purity and saving yourself for "the one", or at least someone you might think is them. There is an aspect of ownership to that which feels kind of patriarchal and capitalistic to me ("You're mine and I'm yours", "I will never love anyone but you", "You are the only one for me", etc), especially since female virginity and male ownership have a historical context. Think about it like this: What is your no-no when it comes to romantic/sexual relationships? Can your SO be naked in front of people they are attracted to or who are attracted to them? What about looking? What about kissing them? Whisper in their ear? Kiss them on the cheek? Masturbate to pictures/videos of others? None of that is intercourse, and yet the taboo around those actions is part of monogamy culture. Isn't that about purity, and doesn't it affect women more than men? That's not saying that everyone should be promiscuous or polygamist, or that sexuality and romantic connection is not linked for many, or for you specifically. Hell, polygamy can be very patriarchal as well, as we all know. However, I think that "natural inclination" is a bit of a dangerous term to use for these things. You can have sex for many different reasons and not being connected to one partner might be very freeing because of that. Additionally, loving more than one person romantically is something that is extremely discouraged in our society, even though it clearly happens to people a lot (referring to divorce/cheating numbers). Is there then really a "natural inclination" to connect sex and love, or put another way, to only have sex with and love one person at a time? I don't think there is a dichotomy between hookup culture and purity culture theoretically (again, there are other ways to have sex and/or have relationships that are conceptually possible), but I think there is one practically, which the video refers to. The way our society is formed around sex and love forces us into one or the other; either look for love through sex, or sex through love. Either you date a lot, or you date only based on opportunities presented. Either you have sexual mobility, or romantic stability. Embrace capitalism or embrace ownership... and isn't that just the same thing with a different name? I'm mainly spitballing here, so take my points with a grain of salt. Monogamy is fine and for many (even most) might be the ideal way for them to live their life. I'm sure both hooking up with different people and saving yourself for that special someone are viable strategies for many. The question is about the social rules within those norms and the inflexible nature of them, and whether that's healthy for people or not. I personally don't think they are and I think that discussing love, sex and relationships from a non-normative perspective is preferable to understand ourselves better, find alternative strategies and form less fragile relationships with others. That's my take anyway. Sorry about the length.

[@quantenmoi]

​@@Staenhus I do think there's a natural inclination to connect sex and love. It's my own experience. And I think there is some science to back up that it's a general human trait - granting that the relevant scientific fields have replication issues. And I don’t want to get too hung up on monogamy. Maybe I should have avoided that term. My main point is the connection between sex and love/deep emotional connection. This connection might happen in other types of close group relationships as well - polyamory, polygamy polyandry. I just think most humans are not well suited to what we might call "acquaintance sex."

[@luminous3558]

@@Staenhus Monogamy is just dating people and only sleeping with the person you are dating. No one night stands, no weird parties, no cheating. Just being committed to 1 person at a time and actually caring about them in that moment. Hook up stuff is just degenerate for both men and women, most just realize it too late after they have already lost parts of themselves that will never return to normal.

[@forestmanification]

Having sex is also known as making love, which is also why having multiple previous sexual partners reduces the chances at a successful marriage because it is indeed, as you noted, tied to love, in this case it numbs the ability to form love from sex, in the end not making you "free-er", but the reverse, being more stuck.

[@Staenhus]

@@forestmanification That marriage point is not true. It's a myth based on bunk science. People can love many people throughout their life and in different ways. Romantic relationships aren't mainly about sex either, at least in the vast majority of cases. That much should be obvious. Also, the word you're looking for is "freer" or "more free".

[@pendragon2012]

That's what makes capitalism so insidious. No sooner do you think you're making progress on one issue or another then a company takes over and finds a way to make riches off it for the white men who run the company. I know that's been an issue for Juneteenth things here in the States. Great video as always, Alice! 🙂

[@Pratt11]

How the f@ck is this comment 1 day old when the video is 10 seconds only? ☠️😭

[@pendragon2012]

@@Pratt11 Patreon, dude.

[@Pratt11]

​@@pendragon2012Nvm bud, I didn't realise that 😓

[@comradetrashpanda8777]

I don't think capitalism cares if the company is run by white men

[@BigV24]

It happens all the time and destabilises movements that start off with noble causes. It's inevitable and leads to cynicism which is sad.

[@LeandroD1]

I loved this video, and I found it quite interesting to delve deeper into the feminist perspective on these kinds of issues since the sexual revolution of the '70s. As a man, I can clearly see the commodification of women on these types of apps, and how, if a man can't stand out, it will lead him into a cycle of self-loathing and depression as time passes and he doesn't get any likes.

[@Megaghost_]

The reaction towards relationships lacks an anticapitalist perspective. You don't achieve anything if you just refuse hetero relationships but reproduce the same cultural norms with people of the same gender as yours. If heterocapitalism is understood as a political regime, you can be as "gay" as you want, and for the system you are the same as any hetero couple: consume, marry, procreate (by acquiring a womb or sperm) and produce the Family, the same thing that along with Private Property and the State, Engels criticized 150 years ago. BTW, for those who speak spanish I recommend Leonor Silvestri's work. You can find her classes recorded here.

[@NickB1967]

So your solution is more of the Marxist poison. Good luck with that!

[@forestmanification]

Homosexuality is a bourgeois vice.

[@shizz3907]

I’m genuinely curious. As a guy who went through a glow-up in college and became one of those guys that makes women hate dating apps (endless situationships, ghosting, etc.) and I will say I’m not proud of my contribution to the current state of dating, I still find it really strange how it seems that many people don’t realize the issue here. I want anyone to tell me why this is wrong but what I see is that few men with very little self-control or maturity that women find very physically attractive end up having so many options, to the point where it was super common for me to literally have 5-6 female partners at a time that I would sort of cycle between. And my friends were doing the same thing to different extents. Some of our less genetically fortunate friends were not getting that same kind of attention at all, like lucky to get a match every few weeks. It feels like women honestly are all dating or sleeping with the same men and some don’t know about it. Like I’ve met guys I didn’t know before and we talk about dating and find out we slept with the same like two girls Edit 1: Im adding in numbers to my edits because these thoughts are continuously developing and I may have more later. I think that a lot of people currently caught-up in hookup culture are there unwillingly, and I think that this is the fundamental problem. There is too much pressure on people who really want a relationship and not just a hook-up to hook-up, even without input from their partner. Why? Because casual sex is perceived to be so easy to get nowadays, especially as we think about the people we find hot like "dang she, he, or they must be able to hook-up with anyone they're so hot" that there's this pressure that if you don't hook-up, someone else will, and then they will lose interest in you. Okay I don't know how any of these things tie together I am just sort of listing different issues I see in modern dating. That being said here goes the next issue. The lack of community reallllllyyyyy enables the bad actors in modern dating. The reason why I and my friends were able to have so many girls we were sleeping with at a time who were not aware of each other is because we met them off of dating apps or instagram. These girls had no way of knowing each other because dating apps and social media gave us the ability to connect with people we never would have naturally connected with. The atomization of society makes it really really easy to take advantage of, use, and discard people with almost zero social cost to pay. If one of the girls I was talking to started asking me for more commitment, I simply just ghosted, she probably lived 5 miles away from campus anyway and I wasnt going to see her, nor was anyone that I knew going to see her. So basically I was only an asshole in her head but that was okay because she was getting ghosted anyways. Again, not proud of any of this, but I think that ghosting is a large part of dating fatigue and a huge part of the function of community is that it regulates and enforces the rules of intimate partnerships or connections. For example: It's way easier to cheat if you and your partner have no mutual friends that would recognize you chatting up that one hot person at the bar. Okay I might think of some more stuff later

[@f1mbultyr]

Nice victim blaming, my guy

[@shizz3907]

@@f1mbultyr Nah dude not victim blaming. Just telling my very anecdotal experience. If anything what I am saying and what I explicitly did say actually is that men with a lot of options and very little self-control or desire to commit are who are driving a lot of our dating woes, just speaking from experience.

[@awsambdaman]

shizz3907 I respect your honesty! I’m a dude and I had a lot of hookups in college too. I don’t really feel as bad cause a lot of the women were down to have sex. Idk if I have sex with a woman do I owe her a relationship? Like I don’t agree with leading women on but if they want to sleep with me that’s them making that choice

[@MrKoalaburger]

​@@awsambdaman Young women seem to innately assume sex = relationship. If I could give one piece of advice to every young woman out there it'd be "Just cuz he thinks you're hot doesn't mean he wants to be with you". But embodying that idea would require 1. Young women be more assertive in their dating life, or 2. They become celibate. Neither will happen in large numbers.

[@shizz3907]

@@MrKoalaburger Agree 100% with this. I think we need to basically bring back shaming men into relationships... It's not the promiscuous women. One can't on one side of their mouth say that women are very picky, which the science does bear out that they mostly are very picky, but on the other side of their mouth say women need to close their legs. The top attractive men with the most options who are willing to sleep with women well beneath them in attractiveness are the issue. There needs to be some social pressure for them to commit to a woman they like and not just keep 5 of them in a 3 month situationship at the same time. The only problem I see that women have in this situation is that they miss the forest for the trees. They think that this one hot dude they like is completely single while he is talking to several other women at the same time. He probably doesnt have commitment issues, it's more like he has so many women in his life who he gets physical and emotional intimacy from for free that to him it really just does not make sense to commit. Why would he? A dude like this only needs to really commit when he decides it is time to have a family, or if they accidentally have a kid. These types of men really need to experience social pressure that controls their behavior. And I don't know how to introduce that pressure. I personally experienced this, I am applying to medschool this year have been planning/preparing for it for the last year and a half and realized that this is a serious step I am making in my life and should start taking other areas of my life seriously including romantic relationships.

[@NelsonGuedes]

Bumble had to change their women-message-first policy because women found it too stressful and often didn't know how to initiate. Like, yeah. Men have known that for quite some time. Women are still the ones who are making the choices, men just get what we can. That's why, for example, the nightclubs want to be attractive to women so men follow. That's because everyone is still following patriarchal gender roles. Bumble tried to challenge one aspect of those gender roles - that men must initiate - and women didn't like it.

[@awsambdaman]

That was my favorite thing about bumble too. I didn’t like always having to message first on Hinge and Tinder and stuff. But yeah a lot of women were really dry texters

[@czarkusa2018]

1:06 "Why pressure women into doing something they don't want to do?" That was the whole point of Bumble, to force them to write anything at all, usually "Hey", at an introduction. They always could and never wanted to. On nightclubs and bars, "ladies' night" the night when drinks are cheaper for women offers up drunken women as advertising. I've always wondered if women knew they were being presented by the bar.

[@lazysnorlax3015]

I rlly dislike how lazy the women were on that app. I could tell imediately which girl I'm going to have a connection just by how the responded. Guys usually had to develop game or a sense of humor but many women at least that I matched with had zero game whatsoever and I ended up losing interest.

[@baklazha]

@@czarkusa2018of course we know, nowadays I see that most women finally understand that bars clubs etc see them solely as product that is sold to men so these places are extremely dangerous and thank god are becoming less popular among young women

[@czarkusa2018]

@@baklazha I'm relieved!

[@michaelsmith953]

Lmao so glad ive never seen those bumble ads...whoever made them must be a boomer

[@Praisethesunson]

Saw one of the billboards off the I-95 in Philadelphia

[@rhobot75]

Especially the nun one given the average age of nuns in the US is pushing 50.

[@zarathustra4649]

The whole team is a bunch of millennials and gen zs lol and add to that most of them are women.

[@gumdeo]

Once the Boomers are gone, they will be renamed the Worst generation.

[@Fekunda]

I find it quite confusing and intellectually dishonest how the creator claims that radical feminism deals with concepts like "feminine" and "masculine" energy. Most radical feminist thought explicitly rejects the notion of inherent feminine values, arguing instead that femininity is a product of patriarchy. Radical feminists assert that our biological sex should be the only determinant of being a man or a woman, not some abstract notion of energy. The creator's discussion of "energy" and the analogy involving wombs or penises is more aligned with Italian difference feminism, which explores concepts like vaginal and clitorical thought. This has nothing to do with the core tenets of radical feminism.

[@silenceisgolden3525]

Agree...I was surprised to hear that, as well.

[@Puer_luminis]

Radical feminist theory got so demonized the last years, that often people are afraid to read primary sources, afraid it might corrupt them. What a lot of leftists know about radical feminism is often just hearsay.

[@ale-qt8zy]

i think you skipped the part where she implies that's the deformation of radical feminism as in... these times. not that it's the basis of the branch nowadays lol

[@Redmanticore]

"Most radical feminist thought explicitly rejects the notion of inherent feminine values" but not reject inherent biological female values. practically all rad fems promote idea that biological women have inherent, almost magical qualities. " Radical feminists assert that our biological sex should be the only determinant " there it is, that _biological_ female is magical. " This has nothing to do with the core tenets of radical feminism. " bs. all rad fems spouse all the time how biological female is this and that.

[@majdataibi3230]

Avoir découvert ta chaîne est vraiment l'une des meilleures choses qui me soient arrivées sur youtube (merci l'algo).. ne t'arrête jamais, tes vidéos sont un plaisir pour l'esprit.

[@jeronimoh]

"Hold your seed ladies" Hahahaha! This video is SO grate and awesome and informative.. Thank you for this

[@abubakarjohnson150]

So basically, the women want validation from men through the dating out. But they do not want to be in a position to give the same back to men. Does that sound about right?

[@danielsykes7558]

1:50 as a gay man brought up in an insular sect, I can see that bumble was trying to do something important having women be the first to reach out, But this correction barely skims the surface of the social conditioning women have been trained into. They still expect a man who takes the lead, plans and pays for dates, & who "chases". But while any partner who makes more money than the other should take up the paying role when necessary, it's important that men not take up this "chaser" role, and women need to understand how awkward (& consequently creepy) the early stages of asking people out goes. Some men never learn. I've been stalked by women and assaulted by men, but even I think that women and men need to meet each other in the middle, walk in each other's shoes, and switch roles often enough to get an understanding of what are healthy expectations and non-toxic behaviors.

[@felipealegriagaete4111]

I agree with yout

[@bogdanbuduroiu5889]

A point on the roots of feminism and actually dismantling partiarchy. This comment might sound misogynistic but I assure you it’s not: how can we build a truly equal society, tear down patriarchy, when cases like South Korea where emotional political movements and figures can appeal and radicalise a mass of men against feminism. I don’t see how our current political systems can become resilient to this, and it feels like women have a modicum of liberation nowadays because men allow it (by not violently opposing it). Happy to chat on this

[@Natta44]

Feminism focused on women empowerment rather than focusing on deconstructing male empowerment over women. So the product we have today is a bunch of empowered women in whatever faction of feminism they deem themselves in. But now a bunch of men who feel 'pushed out' from their norm and feel threatened by the 'angry blue haired lesbian stereotype' that they use as the posterchild for feminism. So hence the rise of 'alpha' conservative men trying to conserve the old status quo. The problem is, is the conservative men are going to just try and role back and try and control women again, which won't work. It's like the work from home theory, everyone experienced it in the pandemic then corporations tried to make everyone go back to the mon-fri 9-5 and everyone stamped their foot and said no. Because why would you go back to worse times? So same with women, those who deem themselves feminists will NEVER just accept this traditional gender role back that they fought so hard to get rid of in terms of the norm. Yet many women gladly accept the gender stereotype housewife role because that's her choice and ok as long as she's happy. So now we have a society with a lot of angry men , and alot of dissatisfied women with the rise of angry men. There has to be a middle ground because this will only get worse before it gets better.

[@forestmanification]

South Korea had a literal feminist shamanistic shadow government that hypnotized their prime minister, did you forget that they deposed her in 2017?

[@ANTREU96]

I love how you describe that if activism turns to a morality choice that movement has already lost. I see this behaviour in many segments of more left leaning topics not only feminism. There is alot of "morality bashing" on the left and it only serves to the benefit of the right

[@fennavanbreda2420]

wowww Alice, this was an especially good one. When you started explaining the concept of transgression, many of my own misplaced feelings of shame fell into place. Thankyou for your well informed and always nuanced video's!!

[@kkorova]

I absolutely love that women are taking over the power over apps which essentially commodify sexual relations. I will say though, just as a demisexual (a different point of view), why is being celibate so ground breaking? Are allosexuals really THAT horny? How is not having sex so powerful? Seriously? Do people really have a need/crave for sex? Fascinating.

[@czarkusa2018]

The people that get to have a lot of it get used to it, it's like cigarettes. They freak out when they can't get any.

[@IronJhon788]

@@czarkusa2018 I agree. As all dopaminergic activities, the more you engage in them, the less pleasureable they become.

[@IronJhon788]

Also, it is kind of funny that we are resorting back to becoming a little bit more puritanical and conservative on the sexual sense. Humans cant understand what middle ground means. It is all about extremes.

[@RachelApril26]

Sex is so central to majority of the population (allosexuals) that it’s as important as food. I think everyone’s poly and trying to even just be with one person is so difficult for allos and why cheating and divorce (bc of cheating/boredom) is so prevalent. -another Demisexual who notices the strangeness of sexuality ALSO “everything is about sex. Except sex, sex is about power.” And what do people want more than anything? Power 😮 it’s a false sense of security in an ever-changing world and allos hold onto that with a death grip

[@damianalejandro6959]

I sense a sentiment of moral superiority in your comment. It is ok and normal for people to be horny and want to get laid. And I say this basically being demisexual/low libido. But I don't think I am special or better

[@brentblackburn976]

This channel is so good at sounding so biased until the last 5 minutes where everything comes back super balanced.

[@redgentleman2412]

I've been around, and almost fell into, incel communities as a teenager. And now, watching these videos, I feel like having looked around both sides of the fence really gives me a deeper broader understanding of the issues at play. While here women's point of vue, convictions, social trends and activism are more the focus point, I often find myself filling in the blanks on why conservative and patriarchal circles reacted the way they did. I like it, it makes my brain feel smart. super great video 👍

[@Pleebian94]

I know what you mean. I unfortunately feel into the MGTOW ideology out of a past romantic hurt. Alice and a few other Breadtube channels helped me unravel the flawed beliefs I had. That and going to Therapy and sticking to it helped me navigate the nonsense. Sad to say I wasted years of my life watching this stuff and self isolating out of unaddressed childhood trauma.

[@anguskane6359]

07:15 One might argue that we're not focusing enough on poverty, but suggesting that the right criticizes feminism merely to divert attention is misleading. Instead of tackling conservative arguments head-on, there's a tendency to label figures like Peterson and Shapiro as part of a vast conspiracy, which seems far-fetched. I say this because I miss seeing nuanced perspectives from the left on KZbin that genuinely engage with the right's complaints, and vice versa. Additionally, the right's viewpoints currently resonate with a significant number of people, particularly men. This is concerning if the right is indeed wrong, and it's up to the left to persuade people otherwise.

[@m0en]

Have you considered making your own KZbin channel? Nothing should be stopping you from entering the conversation. I for one like content with a nuanced perspectives.

[@anguskane6359]

I doubt that having a channel where I simply ramble and question everything would attract an audience or contribute meaningfully to the conversation. We need people who are smarter and more eloquent than I am to discuss these complex issues. I just hope for more nuanced discussions. It's concerning that men are turning to the right while the left seems unsure how to reach them.@@m0en

[@m0en]

I get what you Are saying. I subscribe to both right leaning and left leaning content. If you want nuace you could check out contrapoints. I have recently conumed alot hoemath content and wish someone would critique his perspective. All though he may have some points regarding dating that seem valid, his explanations for why we are where we are has conservative undertones and has for the most part been unchallanged.

[@cdw2468]

this is an interesting perspective, but i have to ask for clarity: what exactly do you think are the arguments that the right presents that the left should be responding to that don’t simply legitimize falsehoods?

[@fiveleavesleft6521]

​@@cdw2468That male and female psychology has evolved to be innately different (on average) and many of the things branded "unequal" are actually the outcomes of those differences playing out in the world.

[@the-goddess-of-libraries]

I think it's interesting that celibacy has been part of feminist and women's liberation movements since the dawn of time. I think it can be a very useful tool to achieve change in society as long as it doesn't start to involve morality. Sex should not be a moral issue, but it is, and that's the problem.

[@mayam9575]

Even in 411 BCE! Lysistrata an ancient Greek play about a group of women starting a sex strike to try to force their husbands into peace talks during the Peloponnesian War. In more recent history it was a big part of peace movements in Liberia during the second civil war there too.

[@DemosApollo]

Well, if it lasts a generation, the only members of the new generation would be the children of the conservative women that didn't care. Thus you achieve a much more conservative society which is what will probably happen in korea.

[@subcitizen2012]

Not sure about since the dawn of time. Christian patriarchy was a significant portion of western history and all but required celibacy as a form of enforcement for patriarchy. Those were the norms that were shed, at least in protest, in the 60-70s feminist movement. It's pretty incredible how much and how quickly circumstances and contexts shift. I'm all for women and feminists protesting with celibacy, but don't forget the roots and history of sex itself as protest either. Sometimes I wonder what the role of feminist men is supposed to be in all of this. We're just here, also being jostled around by patriarchal and capitalist society.

[@semantick]

​@@DemosApolloChildren do not inherit their parent's values as if it's a genotype. This "outbreed the left" narrative is one of total nearsightedness. Large families, especially those born out of solipsistic and totalitarian ideologies like conservatism that promote the idea of children as the sole property of their parents, often produce maladjusted children that grow into maladjusted adults. This cultivated unease and fear is insanely useful for rightoids insofar as directing the sufferers into their fascistic ideologies, but in instances where anyone left of them manages to finally cobble together community care and action, there's usually a fair split in the divergence of lifestyle. Sometimes it even springs up out of the oppressive ideology itself, such as ex-Mormons and the safety nets they attempt to provide for others attempting to leave LDS.

[@JohnSmith-tl8pq]

@@DemosApollo Precisely. Liberal women don't breed, so in just another generation, they will go extinct and be replaced by a new generation of conservatives.

[@humanbeans7952]

my goodness your channel is a breathe of fresh air in the youtube cesspool

[@dismiggo]

What exactly do you mean at 12:58 with the statement "[...] giving up heterosexuality."? Even after rewatching that segment several times, I still don't understand the point you (or the author you were citing) were trying to make, as you obviously can't "give up" your sexuality, because sexuality is not anyone's choice.

[@burpeesquad]

Maybe you should rewatch the whole video. She makes it clear in the first part.

[@TheCommunistColin]

I think the implication is just that the people being discussed become celibate and stop looking for a partner and choose to enjoy other things instead. Like of course they can't just press a button and become gay, they are still attracted to the opposite sex, but they consciously choose to forego any engagement with their sexuality and stop finding partners.

[@vaska00762]

It's definitely something I find myself being conflicted on. I'm a "straight" trans woman - but basically almost no (straight) men want to really commit to being with someone who can't bear their children, not forgetting fragile heterosexuality. This, plus fetishism of trans people from pornography makes it incredibly tiresome. But I have 0 attraction to women - I can appreciate aesthetics and platonic connections certainly appeal to me, but as much as I'm deeply tired of the men that just don't respect who I am as a person, I can no more change my sexuality as I can change my gender identity.

[@odrez]

I had a look at the article and my interpretation is that "Giving up heterosexuality" refers to "the act of not participating in heterosexuality to cause change" framed as a personal responsibility that would somehow then fix heterosexuality as in "heterosexual relationships in their current state". She acknowledges that it doesn't work like that and the expectation is put unfairly on women having to make radical choices and not men. It also doesn't protect from reproducing the same dynamics in other relationships or communities posed as the alternative.

[@televisionblitz]

Giving up heterosexuality as a practice, a non-man having sex with men in this case, rather than the Identity, of being a non-men who's wants to have sex with men.

[@lucasdahlgren4920]

Great video, and a special thanks for addressing the individualistic moralization of activism. The idea that there is one right morality and all others are wrong, that this then takes away the blame from those who caused the problem ( the societal structures) and puts it to the individual, alianating them in the process

[@Fabius11k]

as a first time viewer there were quite a few words i had to google her and concepts that I feel like weren't fully explained - a brief text on screen would be helpful so i can just pause and instantly find *exactly* what you are talking about instead of having to guess from google. But it was an interesting watch regardless!

[@franccontt]

Your videos are always so well done and so informative, thank you for what you do. With every single issue that's brought into the spotlight, there always is some campaign pushed to put the blame on the individual instead of addressing the systematic conditions that allowed this to happen and that keeps pushing it.

[@teaja211]

I mean not surprised they struggle. app is worse than tinder and tinder is baaad like really bad.

[@AndyAlegria]

How is Bumble worse?

[@BigTylt]

>"Were the small underdogs" >Is owned by fucking Blackstone

[@Sara-ci9bl]

The video is so good I have to pause it every few seconds to think 💙

[@scottgreen132]

6:26 wait I thought women used beauty products for themselves and not for men? So what are they "not putting in effort" for?

[@jrd33]

This may come as a shock to you but sometimes people lie. And sometimes they lie to themselves too. As a piece of advice, pointing this out to them is rarely appreciated.

[@Jeffur2]

Social norms can't guide one's actions if one chooses to reject them and supplant them with one's own guiding philosophy of how a respectable person navigates society. We all know these expectations are unjust, arbitrary, and archaic, so there's no reason to respect them by letting them guide our behavior.

[@Staenhus]

That's not really true, imo. Firstly, there is the active vs passive aspect. You need to be very active in order to reject social norms, because what norms do is form our behaviour when we're passive, i.e. tired or relaxed or similar. It's harder going against norms when you don't have the energy to do so, for the same reason you're more likely to buy fast food. It's easier, you don't have to think actively to do it. Secondly, norms are formative even in the rejection of them. They present a binary choice to be made when there might not be one in reality. A good example is race, where everything that isn't white is "racialised" even though reality is a spectrum of colours and experiences. Biracial people feel this a lot, because they're stuck in between; considered racialised and othered by white people, rejected as too normative by whatever minority group they're ascribed. See the discussion within the black community about "true blackness", especially after the Kendrick/Drake blowup, e.g.. Thirdly, even if you somehow find an individual behaviour that is truly independent of norms, a large part of the human experience is interaction with others. Meaning that normative culture still has an impact on you, if only in the way that people behave towards you and the way you're forced to act in order to do basal things. Believe me, I'm neurodivergent so I feel that aspect strongly in my life. This is why structural change/norm dismantling is so important. Individual change is great and a part of that, but an assertion that breaking normative culture is just a matter of personal rejection belies the complexity of sociological functions. You are being guided even when you don't think you are; choosing an alleyway instead of the main street doesn't mean you're not affected by the structure of the city.

[@danimariafe]

Honestly, I am exhausted. personally, I just do whatever makes me happy, I think I am ace, at least somewhere in the spectrum, but I do not shame women who participate in hook up culture. However, I do enjoy having these conversations with other women in my life, because not everyone understands how wanting to be 'free' can be actually worse for us. I often think that, thanks to the misogynist culture, we have more to lose if we engage in heterosexual relationships. I know it is impossible to escape gender norms 100%, I try my best, but I also do not think the responsibility should be placed on women only, we need to held men (and society in general) accountable. In that way, we can have healthy and meaningful relationships, separatism cannot be the only solution. Amazing video as always, greetings from Peru:)

[@Megaghost_]

Absolutamente de acuerdo. And even in homosexual relationships there is the possibility of enforcing traditional gender roles that make them not much different from any heterosexual relationship. Some gay couples reproduce the same habits hetero couples have. They see the traditional family as the way to go, not as a social construct from the last centuries of western culture. Te recomiendo leer a Leonor Silvestri, sus clases se pueden encontrar acá, es muy lúcida para tratar estos temas. Saludos desde Argentina.

[@brianmeen2158]

Gender norms are interesting because the few women I’ve dated that claimed to want gender roles to be eliminated also tended to want me(as the man) to be traditional in many ways . When I brought this up they’d give it some thought and realized that they truly don’t want to get rid of all gender norms lol.

[@Bramble20322]

@@brianmeen2158 People in general will always speak as their idealized self, while their real self most often contradicts their idealized self completely. That's why advice, specially online advice, is completely and utterly useless and even counterproductive. Redpills are fucking awful, but they do get that "dont listen to what they say, observe what they do" thing right, and it applies to both men and women. Most people are not capable or willing to do any self reflection on their own, they just say what makes them look better for themselves and for others.

[@Vent69420]

As someone who meets and has fun with people in person, it baffled me how these apps just sideline and ignore normal people while promoting the attractive ones who get swiped. When real life is easier to meet people than online dating apps, you know their business and purpose is flawed. They promote one night stands despite acting like they want to make an app you “delete” after finding a partner

[@Hooga89]

The apps are more honest than real life though, people really do only care about looks and the reason why is that people's personalities are mostly the same and socially speaking human beings are mostly the same. But looks-wise they are not the same at all, not by a long shot.

[@Shoobster]

​@Hooga89 The assertion that personalities don't matter in a relationship because everyone is "socially speaking, mostly the same" is frankly absurd. I don't know about you but there are many people who are very physically attractive to me that I would not pursue a relationship with because we don't have anything in common. Of course I want to date a really pretty lady, but I also would require that she is funny and likes similar things to me and doesn't majorly differ with me on politics and life goals. If you were right, then people would automatically just sort themselves by attractiveness and then date exactly the person who is their equal. But that's not how things work, everybody has their own specific taste and emphasis and requirements for their relationships. And yes, looks are a big component for most people, but a single component of many.

[@mrjoda1118]

Citing yourself like a true thinker. I would like to do the same

[@uschurch]

@MCSorry * delusion

[@oj3730]

I mean, enunciating your argument and then providing the support for it is standard procedure in science lol

[@TheRealSykx]

@@uschurch lol cringe

[@missdeoxy]

I really appriciate you for posting this video, it gave me so much to think about!

[@TeppichFussel77]

I personally like dating and dating apps, it get’s exhausting after a while so I take a break on it regularly, but I also come back to it, because it’s fun. I should mention that I am polyamorous, so I am not searching for “the one” and there is not really a reason for me to quit dating apps altogether, even when I am already in a loving and committed relationship. But from my experience it is possible to find meaningful connection and have valuable experiences through dating via dating apps.

[@paxwallace8324]

I was so lucky because those 60s hippie girls were just hitting their 30s when I was in my 20s they were all feminist all sain people were they were Yoga teachers, Modern Dancers, Co-op mangers, artists, musicians, Earthmother Gardeners/massage therapists on their book shelves were The Whole Earth Catalogue the Tao Te Ching, the i-Ching, Diet for a Small Planet, Tom Robbins, Mary Daly, Our Bodies our Selves, the Joy of Sex, Shar Hite's The Hite Report on female orgasm. These women weren't part of that materialistic Disco scene. They were what was most fascinating about the late 70s and 80s. I'm 65 now and can't imagine what the equivalent of that counter culture would be today.

[@fleurosea]

I’m studying creative art therapy, that culture is still out there, building on the shoulders of those who have come before. These people identify with the “post-post modern”(I hate that name 🙄) or “new materialism”

[@TheAmericanAmerican]

I'm just a boringly straight man in his 30s but I like to think that the progressive left is carrying the feminist torch? I mean I'm a Marxist Socialist and most of my like-minded peers 100% agree with the video here so I truly have hope for the feminist movement. We just gotta get rid of the TERFs and TradWifes first lol ;)

[@omgthisismeomgthisisme]

Discos aren't necessarily materialistic. Parties are a big part of collectivist cultures and hold significance as third places.

[@Artlesbi]

I have chosen to be celibate. I refuse to be a commodity for men. I am my own being.

[@Redmanticore]

so you also refuse to be commodity for lesbian women?

[@forestmanification]

I have chosen to never get a girlfriend because being someone's "boyfriend" sounds gay also the idea of not owning a woman fully and instead passing her around like used property sounds very demeaning, only marriage makes sense. And on the topic of birth control, imagine telling a woman that you love her but only if she suppresses the very thing that makes her a woman in the first place, the fact that she makes children when coupled with a a man, that means it's obviously not love and just using part of her like a hole which is what homosexuals do with each others, so again, it sounds gay af.

[@omgthisismeomgthisisme]

Relationships don't inherently entail to be "commodity" to men.

[@ryankelly2835]

i got a bumble ad before this video played

[@mimisdailydose]

Incredible video! As per usual I feel like I not only learned a ton about sexual liberation but ideas of mine I’ve never quite understood. Especially the fact that sex is so often an ego boost and less about connecting in media.

[@sarahshaw-sehgal1146]

Thank you for getting dense with it, I love learning about all of this!!!

[@imbariegh]

My understanding of this video is that as soon an app or something gives women some agency (emancipation), which is inevitably attached with some small responsibility, a multitude of studies and (intellectually dishonest) philosophies are produced to absolve women of such responsibilities. Thanks for making it so clear.

[@gumdeo]

Hypoagency is as intrinsic to them as breathing.

[@forestmanification]

TRVTH

[@Xanderall]

Amazing. I feel that I've learned so much after watching this vid. I think I'll have to have a couple of rewatches to fully understand but yeah, it was quite fascinating

[@CrucialFlowResearch]

Women don't want to date a large number of men, so it doesnt matter who protests what, the supply and demand is not balanced anyway

[@awsambdaman]

Yeaaahh I don’t know the way around this issue..

[@ThePoodle]

do men want to date a large number of women? maybe that is the problem... I know I am looking for a reliable person, not just someone I think is hot...

[@Staenhus]

I'm sorry, that assertion is a bit weird. I think it's more accurate that women aren't *supposed* to date a large number of men, while men are vice versa. Think about it, if men are more likely to date a lot of different women, how does that happen if the distribution is 50/50 and women are comparatively monogamous? The numbers should be 1:1, right? I'm not an expert, but I do know that in surveys, men high-ball their amount of sexual partners more often which skews the average upwards. When you remove the outliers, the numbers become pretty similar. That doesn't perfectly translate into dating more or less people at the same time, I realise, but it might give some indication. I think men are just more vocal about dating more people (even when it's not true), and/or less vocal about getting taken advantage of.

[@KateeAngel]

​@@awsambdaman the way is not everyone gets what they want.

[@enhancedutility266]

​@@StaenhusHe's right in a way because a third of men haven't dated in years meanwhile half are married in this country and the ones that are single is split half since most women want to go with guys who make really good money or have an education like a bachelor's degree so it really is whittled down to 20 to 1% of the male population really dating and mating in America

[@ThomasOtt70]

Thank you for some a wonderful discussion on structural changes vs lifestyle changes w.r.t. to the feminism and activism. It made me think about a few things.

[@Amyglowsup]

I hit the like button because this video reminded me of how much effort is put into a college paper - and this woman is total badass what a great video and laid out points - so appreciate you ❤

[@reneewu803]

hey Alice. Love this video! I noticed on the subtitle, the author of the article Heterosexuality and its discontents is said to be Yufei Wang, but it's Yuhe Faye Wang

[@hyquiemistheg.o.a.t1671]

10:10 But what is to stop a feminine hierarchical system from turning capitalist? I don’t consider their idea of overthrowing the class system wrong at all, but rather what is the identity of men in this hierarchy? In one side of this platform there are ludicrous cults bent on the idea of a man becoming a hedonist machine without any societal relevance other than income. Here there is a shine on the stinging (ironically a bumble pun) on feminism. So as a man I’m kind of curious as to what the goal becomes when men are neither needed as partners nor as contributors to society?

[@awsambdaman]

I mean from what I’ve seen heterosexual women by and large still want a lot of the traditional dating norms. Man initiates, man plans, man pays, man escalates. I think if you want to be successful in dating as a man you kinda have to play into that a bit. Gotta be what the market is asking for. But once you’re in a relationship, things should be more equal. Everyone splits chores, everyone contributes financially. But I think women still mostly want a guy they can look up to. Like a guy who’s more of a leader, at least he’s the one who’s decisive in the relationship. She trusts his judgement. Call it outdated, call it whatever. But in all the media and books and stories women read…99.9% of the time the guy is still the masculine, active role. Women want to feel protected and cherished, men want to feel needed and respected. Call me crazy, call me redpill, this is just what I’ve seen. I don’t see a lot of women taking up the active/pursuer role

[@hyquiemistheg.o.a.t1671]

@@awsambdaman I can understand where you’re coming from, but clearly there is a lack of course in this case. What you’ve described is a man of experience, which leaves little to no middle ground in terms of what the average man is today. I could nitpick, but I do believe that any man can achieve a relationship. My question mainly lies on the thought what happens after feminism succeeds? The corporate world is brutal for both men and women. While the light is definitely deserved on the women, the same issue can be mirrored if bosses were swapped. Feminism has always preached and pushed for the end of a patriarchal order, yet it offers no solution for men. Aside from what can be achieved through trial and error, there also exists the concept of settlement. That puts me back to my original point, what is the middle ground for men in both society and relationships dominated by feminism. While women say they want something there is still a lack of interest and attraction.

[@fiveleavesleft6521]

​@@hyquiemistheg.o.a.t1671For the desired endpoint, picture an inverse "Handsmaids Tale". 5% of the best genetic males kept as breeding stock. I'm serious.

[@enhancedutility266]

Feminism is just an ideology to cut down the human population a coincides with mission statement from the club of Rome in the late 1960s

[@NewBlooom]

Deep down i dont want to be conquered. I want a partner. I want to feel another soul, without roles. Unfortunately, i learned that with men its better to interact with all this roles, when he pays and cares and I admire. But I'm not going to marry a man either, cause i know that after this games there's no space for sincere connections and acceptance of a real person, since everyone was trying to to squeeze into expectations of how certain gender behaves in order to be desired.

[@sivanmisgav9468]

Anything commodified.. well... becomes commodified... No app is "feminist" no such thing as "green capitalism" no product is "consumer friendly". There are degrees of course. But the incentive of revenue is the goal, even if there are real good intentions in the begining.

[@sainte-amaranthe]

This might be one of your greatest videos ! I absolutly loved the argument around trangression, truly hitting a point ! Bravo ^^

[@alanhilder1883]

Bumble's problem. The women cheered that they were in control and joined, so far so good. Then they sat back and waited for the men to make their move, forgetting that the whole idea was that the men can not make the 1st move, so they complained when they realised that now the men were in the position of being able to do the rejecting where that was the lady's position before. Spoken by an old man that has never intruded onto a woman without clear signs that I will be welcomed ( that is, I am single, have always been single, the women don't know how to show interest ) Am I incel or whatever, no, just given up on anything being posible.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

(Cue that Bumble India ad where two cute guys meet) I see that ad and feel like throwing chocolates at the screen and yell “LIAR!”

[@Pratt11]

Bumble India is the WORST!!, Like I genuinely can't tell if here they are even women or just guys trolling me or the “Casual only” shit

[@RyuKyu.77]

As a bisexual indian guy, I WISH! WHERE ARE THE CUTE INDIAN GUYS?! WHERE'S SHAHRUKH KHAN? ALL I SEE IS UNCLES

[@PokhrajRoy.]

@@RyuKyu.77 Nothing wrong with older guys but what are the priorities? That is the question

[@RyuKyu.77]

@@PokhrajRoy. Indian men focus waay too much on s@# which has led me to limit my exploration, maybe I must wait till college where maybe good guys are available

[@PokhrajRoy.]

@@RyuKyu.77 I wish you good luck

[@kevindenelsbeck7444]

Is the reduction to the opposite poles of free-sex and purity culture maybe a bit *too* reductive, especially towards such extremes? I'm seeing growing reactions to hookup culture that recommend reserving sex for those you have a genuine emotional connection to. Not necessarily implying commitment to marriage with (now or in the near-future), but making intimate physical acts a consequence only of intimate emotional concordance.

[@sulimanthemagnificent4893]

Abstinence is power.

[@ShadowBlitz776]

Holo doesn't agree with you

[@forestmanification]

I'm holding years of power.

[@Jetstar108]

Brilliant, fascinating, overwhelming video. I will have to repeat this many times to completely soak in all of the info you’re laying out!🧠

[@macelharen]

this is about as fascinating as when i recently watched an intersex person talk about their reality. Thank goodness for the internet in its current form to be able to hear things radically different than the mainstream (and its definition of the extremists)

[@Michael-eq8th]

Im a man who’s been celebate for 8 years. Ive been anti capitalist for longer that that. I feel pretty free from patriarchy. Ive recently started dating again, and I tried bumble first. It feels pretty rooted in patriarchal norms. I feel a little cursed that the women who are most enlightened, are the hardest to find. It’s a bit of a trap that Ive fallen into. Celebacy was a really positive life decidion for me that changed my perspective and I admire that freedom of thought in others. However, that quality also makes me unlikely to meet them socially.

[@Patrick-857]

The whole premise of bumble is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of dating power dynamics. The one being approached usually has the upper hand by default. Especially online. Turns out women don't like it when they have to make the first move.

[@AndyAlegria]

Can you cite peer-reviewed study to confirm that is true for ALL women? Even if 90% of women don't like to make the first move, Bumble exists for the other 10%, which may numerically be enough to support their business.

[@Patrick-857]

@@AndyAlegria You must be a redditor.

[@irliamthischool]

​@@AndyAlegriawhy would men join a site that excludes 90% of women?

[@AndyAlegria]

@@irliamthischool If only 10% of my metropolitan area uses a dating app during the period of time that I am, only 25% of them are women (according to a recent poll), and only 10% of dating app women are using Bumble, that's still ~6,000 women in my area. That's more than enough options unless, for some reason, the entire demographic of women who have similar hobbies as I do are avoiding Bumble.

[@Redmanticore]

i agree. inherent patriarchal culture, so of course women in patriarchal culture dont like to approach men. doomed to fail from the start. bumble´s CEO is just getting red pilled.

[@happyzahn8031]

Becoming a nun is a great calling. Celibacy means you have self control. To bad the people making the ads don't know the difference between a person and a rock. I bet they have no self control themselves and want everyone to share in their misery.

[@siduozhang8624]

I recommend every man and woman to read Bell Hooks' book The Will to Change: Men Masculinity, and Love. It profoundly moved me, as a man. Because among all these, in my view, anti-men voices in the name of feminism, there are still intelligent feminist thinkers that believe the solution to the damaging nature of patriarchy, is to be found by women and men together. Ane men are also the victims of patriarchy. Unfortunately, most movements in human history, tend to morph into entirely something else and are hijacked by the human ego.

[@lovelover4408]

bell hooks is one of the best modern feminist authors. I recommend her book “feminism is for everybody” for the same philosophical perspective.

[@FrozenSunrise]

Reported someone for SA and shared with bumble, no response whatsoever... Yet they claim to care about offline behavior...

[@Sonnell]

Both sides are idiots. Both sides are doing the same. And they are just getting angry of each other.. And they are getting in to endless discussions, overcomplication, hatred towards each other... Why are they idiots? Because instead of all these, they could just use EQUALITY. Use this one word, instead of all the things I mentioned above, and you all will be just fine. But there are less and less people in the middle, using their brain to understand this, and simply be kind and loving to each other and everyone. Instead they gather in groups where they can throw sh*t at other similar groups... While all of them wants the same... simply be accepted and loved. Well done folks!!!!! :(

[@forestmanification]

PIckup artists is feminism for men, the other side of the coin, and they feed each other's new recruits. Woman is with pickup artist -> she now thinks all men are pigs -> becomes feminist to get as much resources from men as possible (like a prostitute). Man is with feminist -> he now thinks all women are prostitutes -> becomes a pickup artist to get as much sex from women as possible (like a prostitute client).