BYU Black Menace Leaves Mormon Church Over Racism - Sebastian Stewart-Johnson | Ep. 1891

Get ready for an explosive and unfiltered look at life as a Black student at BYU! Sebastian takes us on a wild ride as he dishes about the viral rise of his "Black Menaces" group, a provocative movement that fearlessly called out racism within Mormon culture. From protests that sparked national headlines to tense confrontations with horrified church leaders like Brad Wilcox, Sebastian holds nothing back. He delves into the trauma of being constantly stared at and "othered" on BYU's overwhelmingly white campus, receiving vile racist abuse and death threats just for daring to speak truth to power. Sebastian's story is a raw, unsettling wake-up call about the insidious persistence of racism, even in religious communities that preach love and equality. Get ready to have your perceptions shattered by this bold revolutionary's refusal to stay silent in the face of oppression.
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
theblackmenaces.org/
‪@theblackmenaces‬
Other Black Menaces Interviews:
Rachel Weaver: kzbin.info6-RYnZRbamM
Nate Byrd: • BYU Racism Goes Viral ...
Chapters:
00:00:00 Intro
00:05:40 The beginning of Sebastian’s Mormon Story
00:10:45 They got help from the Bishop’s storehouse
00:12:15 He had zero desire to get baptized when he turned 8
00:13:50 The valuable parts of the church
00:20:25 His Joseph Smith moment
00:24:00 Basketball was a distractor, people thought he was crazy
00:33:25 The only time his debate teacher said something about the church being racist
00:40:00 Seeing the church as a business
00:47:20 All organizations have been racist, it’s a religion
00:51:10 The Truman Show
00:56:00 Not taking the sacrament
01:00:15 Knowledge of US History and Civil Rights Movement
01:07:40 He was called to the Dominican Republic mission
01:10:05 He loved the MTC
01:15:04 He got sick on his mission and he was sent home
01:22:25 He prayed that God would tell him NOT to go back on his mission
01:24:55 He went back on his mission
01:34:00 Racism on his mission
01:38:55 Homophobia on his mission
01:47:50 On his mission the church reversed the November 2015 policy
01:52:00 He started experiencing pain, hernias caused from walking
01:53:30 He was sent home again and didn’t have to go back
01:54:00 How was his testimony at this point?
01:58:20 He attended BYU
02:04:40 The problem with Utah Mormons is they don’t understand other cultures
02:09:55 People that were murdered by cops or white people
02:15:00 How racist was Utah in 2020
02:18:20 58% black graduation rate at BYU
02:19:23 What is racism?
02:24:00 What is reverse racism?
02:26:20 The academic study of black dolls vs white dolls
02:37:55 What brought him to start Black Menaces?
02:44:20 White people don’t know how to interact with black people
03:00:45 Black Menaces went viral
03:30:40 Administration’s response to Black Menaces
03:59:10 Plans for Black Menaces
04:01:00 Lightning round of questions
04:01:25 Curse of Cain
04:04:15 White Jesus or Brown Jesus?
04:06:05 Lamanite curse in the Book of Mormon
04:09:15 Joseph Smith giving priesthood to black people
04:12:38 Brigham Young
04:17:50 Fence sitters in the pre-existence
04:30:40 The Church’s growth in Africa
04:43:30 What are his beliefs now?
04:52:10 Encouraging students NOT to go to BYU
___________________
At Mormon Stories we explore, celebrate, and challenge Mormon culture through in-depth stories told by members and former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as well as scholars, authors, LDS apologists, and other professionals.
Our overall mission is to:
1. Facilitate informed consent amongst LDS Church members, investigators, and non-members regarding Mormon history, doctrine, and theology
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3. Promote healing, growth and community for those who choose to leave the LDS Church or other high demand religions
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[@advocate7643]

What bothers me about the church is that members will treat their black faithful members like a trophy to say “Hey look were not racist!”

[@crystalengland8290]

I am not Mormon but why are blk people shocked when yt people show their racism. This is the same religion that believes that having black skin is the curse of Cain!! I’m not shocked at all by anything he is saying happens or is said.

[@DNaWhoot]

Very true, especially during conference weekend. All you see is "we're not racist anymore propaganda." Like that makes everything all good

[@Abbasgirl312]

Never Mormon here, but Mormon Stories is my favorite podcast!

[@danielclingen34]

Same. I grew up an evangelical missionary kid& saw Mormon missionaries alit around my church, then again once I moved to Arizona so it’s just interesting and mind blowing to hear their story

[@Abbasgirl312]

@@danielclingen34 I am Pentecostal but love listening to people's stories. A missionary kid? That is awesome, you might have some stories yourself. May God bless you for the work you've done. John does a marvelous job!

[@dehende07]

Mine's too I would have never thought that I could listen to a podcast for hours and hours but Mormon stores just do something for me 😊

[@janicaribeiro6350]

Same ! I am hooked !

[@Abbasgirl312]

@@janicaribeiro6350 Me 2🥰

[@karenf5476]

This interview is one of the most honest discussions I've heard on the black experience in white spaces. I appreciate Sebastian and Nate's honesty.

[@cripplymacdeafy]

Sebastian is amazing and needs to be a household name, trust. Let’s elevate this Mormon story everyone!

[@amygreen758]

As a hearing impaired person, your tag name gave me a good laugh.

[@cripplymacdeafy]

@@amygreen758 pleased to meetcha ☺️ more laughs and smiles, right?!!

[@stephenhansen6335]

R​@@amygreen758

[@nsasupporter7557]

@@cripplymacdeafyI’m gonna be a household name if I could ever get on this podcast with my Exmormon story

[@cripplymacdeafy]

@@nsasupporter7557 I believe in you. Interested in (edit: mistyped) learning more about your Mormon story and your hopes and dreams surrounding being a household name.

[@rin-eri]

Can I just say it's so fucking refreshing to hear a guest on MSP who WASN'T a total perfect devout mormon throughout their upbringing? I love hearing someone being like 'hmmm nope we didn't do all that' when it comes to a lot of the expectations the church puts on people.

[@peterhoyt2529]

‘I wouldn’t choose to be born gay, but I also wouldn’t choose to be born white.’ This gay white boy approves this message. 👏🏻 👏🏻 👏🏻

[@cccacost]

I found out about the Black Menaces literally only a few days ago. Finding out that Sebastian is leaving the church was such a relief! He’s great, I hope the best for him!

[@appledpickle]

Maslow's hierarchy: if you're concerned about food, water and shelter, you can't really worry about your enlightenment, there's so many needs before that!

[@melissaw6427]

Growing up with zero black perspectives around me, this is so valuable for me to hear. I really think stories like these are important to those of us living in predominantly mormon white areas. It helps me realize just how the fact Utah is one of the whitest places is a representation that the church is racist. We need these stories. Loved Nate being here too. Thanks Mormon Stories and Black menaces.

[@jellojoe6493]

I’ve been waiting for the black menaces to share their story since they came on the scene. So glad Nate, Rachel, and Sebastian have all had the opportunity now. I’m never Mormon, but i was a black kid who grew up in predominately white Christian spaces. So their stories are always special to me ❤

[@NathanaelByrd]

Glad you could learn from our experiences! Love from the Black Menaces❤

[@riahdaniels54]

this young man taught me so much as a 54 year old never Mormon black woman. Thank you this is the best Mormon stories podcast I have ever seen. It had me glued. I have watched now three times to absorb it all. It is profound.

[@user-of2xd4id1o]

❤ Of course let's change the rules

[@user-of2xd4id1o]

Freedom of speak what's happening at b y u

[@user-of2xd4id1o]

Well, Jesus had to be for the Middle East, so technically he would have more or less.Had browns again wouldn't he

[@learnedempowerment]

"When someone says, 'I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic', I'm like 'You're lying to yourself and you're lying to me' Because if you say that, what you're saying is 'I've stopped working on myself and allowed the -ism to take up residence inside myself'" -Sebastian Stewart (Black Menace)

[@dygz]

What people mean is that they don’t hate others… Without understanding it’s not really just about hate.

[@dygz]

It’s OK to have a black table or Latino table or LGBTQ table. It should also be OK for outsiders to sit at those tables and try to learn about and assimilate aspects of the cultures and become allies. But, of course, people who have shared cultures and values and perspectives are going to want to group together.

[@ningiyizhuo]

​@@dygz I think that's actually exactly what he was getting at. like, for most people racism stems from a lack of understanding, so it's important to be conscious of this within ALL of us because even if it isn't rooted in hatred, internalised racism can lead to consequences just as bad as overt/conscious racism if not worse, since obviously, we can't introspect when we never realise we need to in the first place

[@dygz]

@@ningiyizhuo I think I said it a bit more clearly than Sebastian. Also, most people in college are not aware that they still need to work on being a more empathetic person. Nice is different than good.

[@ningiyizhuo]

@@dygz oh ok, sorry I misread your initial comment and thought you were disagreeing with him. and yeah I completely agree with you :)

[@sheliabryant3997]

"I manipulated people the way I was manipulated." M.L.M. [As they were pastured, so they became."]. At least HE IS/WAS AWARE, and ACKNOWLEDGES IT! That is HUGE. 🌈 At any age.

[@slvrsrfr92]

I've never been able to site an exact reason why I left the church. I left 6 months into my mission but could never really put into words why or how I changed my mind. I was put off by the crazy strict mission rules and not allowed to be my authentic self. But in watching this I think I figured out the words that best explain my departure from Mormonism. I really saw the cult mentality come into play the guilt and pressure and shame that came with being on a mission. I realized my name is Leland Bowers, not Elder, or Mormon, or a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I was proud of who I was and respected myself, as a missionary I couldn't be those things or believe those things about myself. I never and could never fit the cult mold and I was doomed to failure as a missionary if I wanted to retain myself and my own authentic worth.

[@NicoleUntch]

I think Sebastian hit it home when he said when you’re a POC at BYU you feel like you can’t walk around freely. The stares are real, the small aggressions add up. I remember by sophomore year I would put in my headphones everywhere and anywhere I went in Provo and just watched the ground as a walked I became so anxious and paranoid.

[@american236]

What? Girl that’s crazy. I would have hung out with you.

[@chasemoray425]

No one is staring at you

[@runsprints4life767]

Sebastian is one of the nicest people I've ever met. He's so insightful, respectful, and hilarious. love him!

[@jaycee5555]

I really appreciate your talking about wanting to die as a missionary. My mission really damaged my mental health and I hated myself for wanting my life to be over. It is so validating to learn that I was not the only one!

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

I totally understand what Sebastian was saying about not being able to feel at BYU. I was unbelievably depressed at BYU but never would have been able to graduate (or afford another university) if I had felt my depression. Emotions speak to us! It's so sad that most Mormons think negative emotions are about Satan trying to get you! 👹 It's like medieval thinking.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

"Joseph couldn't have translated out of a hat!" -Sebastian 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Blue-Mondays]

I proudly wear my ‘Be A Menace’ Hoodie. I love the Black Menaces and I am an older woman Ex-Mo. I am proud and impressed with these young adults. I am mostly in awe of how they made it through BYU without succumbing to the pain of racism and that they were intelligent and brave enough to create student interviews. ❤

[@peregrine1993]

"I was so unrelenting because I was holding on so hard." I felt that.

[@TirraOmilade]

I am a former Christian and i think i Watch ex-Mormon videos because on some level I relate. Hearing Sebastian speak about his split from Mormonism…I can relate so much.

[@mormonstories]

I would love to interview you @TirraOmilade. Please email me: [e-mail]

[@madzabinga8382]

Awesome interview! This was so insightful and one of my favorites this year, John. I feel really proud of those men and the changes they are making within the Mormon narrative!

[@sharonminer9350]

The phone plan explanation was great! It really made it make sense.

[@shellyb5014]

I love that there are so many former black Mormons being interviewed. Ive noticed that Mormons who grew up in Utah vs Mormon who grew up elsewhere have such different experiences.

[@britty4755]

The first thing the holy spirit told me when I became post mormon was that Brigham Young was racist and didn't represent God, lol. Jesus loves black people! Stay strong. You are all valuable and loved.

[@JayPee575]

Since Mormons are mostly white, I found this refreshing to see black men speak about their experiences. I loved this ep.

[@elliek5350]

I'm actually wondering if the majority of the Mormons worldwide is actually white at this point.

[@JayPee575]

@@elliek5350 I am a never Mormon from the USA, so I’m not sure but I know the religion is growing overseas.

[@elliek5350]

@@JayPee575 I believe so too, but I don't have any data to confirm it

[@JayPee575]

@@elliek5350 it just opened up to allowing people who aren’t white though so who knows.

[@froggie9871]

Not only was this enlightening and informative it was also entertaining. That is hard to do. What an art.

[@davidkauppi6029]

Besides everything else.. It’s sooo saddening and alien hearing someone even having to concider cost when discussing universities, quality and reputation. Yours, Sweden

[@RampidWarthogStudios]

These guys just humbled me. I never had racism explained to me like that and I definitely want to be better and work on the things about me that are wrong. Awesome guys❤

[@SuzySylvania]

I love that a thunderstorm is “menacing “ through the Salt Lake Valley as this premier is airing! Go Black Menaces!!! ❤

[@loadofcraft2278]

I cannot believe he was strong enough to go back to his mission. It sounds so emotionally and physically exhausting.

[@nicetryubmrellacor7714]

john dehlin simply does not miss great interview great guests

[@TheWanderingHeretic]

I've commented in the past about how these stories of BYU's institutional provincialism remind me of my time at MIT. But let me also validate that BYU is extreme. I was a very disruptive activist at Smith College during my undergrad, then again at MIT for grad school. At Smith College I made the Board of Trustees hate me during the fight for trans-inclusive admissions. At MIT some friends and I even marched on the Chancellor's office to demand an end to a building plan that would have made parents with 2-year-olds homeless. We were NEVER made to worry that we'd be expelled.

[@TheWanderingHeretic]

Plus Idk of any other university that would deny someone a transcript after they transfer out. And to think BYU is doing it over behaviors that are not illegal anywhere in the US and have nothing to do with academic honesty (namely activism and gay dating)... I wonder if that particular BYU practice should be illegal.

[@FishareFriendsNotFood972]

Would like to hear more about the terse relationship between Baptists and Mormons!

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

A Mormon mission sounds like hell on Earth.

[@stokenasty]

It’s a subtle hell. It’s the cultiest aspect of the church imho

[@jakeswanson3831]

Best experience of my life. Just because it’s not something that everyone is prepared for or fully understand its purpose doesn’t mean it’s bad. Learned so much from my mission. It was hard and good.

[@stokenasty]

@@jakeswanson3831 are you still an active member of the church?

[@chlyri]

​@@jakeswanson3831but it isn't designed to be good. it's designed to reinforce brainwashing and drag in new recruits. it hurts people.

[@nathanaeldavenport2251]

My perception of it has evolved, especially after I left the church. When I was younger and still very much in, I had buried a lot of the unpleasant memories that I had from my mission. That’s not to say that I didn’t have some good experiences, but it would take me the better part of 20 years to revisit the bad memories and try to make sense of them. Especially the crippling depression that I experienced about 3/4 of the way through my mission. I didn’t understand that as depression at the time, but rather as complete and utter failure on my part. Also the constant stress I feeling like I would be held accountable by God for the people I could have “saved” if I didn’t give my very best efforts… There’s a reason why I sunk into depression. It’s amazing how indoctrination could make me gloss over that much pain and trauma.

[@electra424]

Thank you Sebastian, Nate, Rachel, and all the other Black Menaces for all the incredible work you have done. Revealing the dark underside of BYU to the world must have been so taxing on all of you I cannot even imagine. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

[@christeljulia]

I couldn't stop watching this interview. Spellbinding,. important stuff

[@jenniferanderson4201]

Such a brilliant and important interview, on so many levels. Thank you!

[@TirraOmilade]

Definitely following Black Menaces on YT and I made my first donation. All in! Thank you Sebastian and Nate for sharing your story and keep the movement going!

[@dynamitedame4743]

It’s crazy that most missionaries have the same story of depression and anxiety

[@oopsmyeye]

I’ve been out of Mormonism for 17 years and it’s so frequent for me to come across something so deeply embedded that I need to do a deep revisit of bigger issues. I’m 40, white, Provo born, kid of a cop, etc etc… Malcom X was a good guy!?! I just remember being a kid hearing about a bad movie about a bad guy that I shouldn’t watch and haven’t really revisited in 30ish years. I gotta do more homework!

[@soude85]

Thank you all, loved the metaphors!😊👌🏼

[@peregrine1993]

Loved how forceful and how genuine that 'God dammit' was from John 😂

[@guideme1503]

Took guts to try to represent blacks in LDS. IMPOSSIBLE. But, one by one, telling us…..educates, gives us a tiny chance to begin to grasp. God bless you both….and your lives.

[@reneenolan3163]

I am so glad you have survived to tell your story! Personal life experiences as a minority makes my heart cry for you on one hand and cheer at the top of my lungs for you! I hope you can find a joyful life on future!!❤

[@Elparker28]

I was really looking forward to this one, thank you for sharing Sebastian. I’m nevermo but raising my children (always a lifelong practice for myself too) to be critical thinkers and intentionally open minded. I really like the videos you’re putting out now teaching about current events in politics and how to actually be an ally. These are things that not everyone is learning at home or in school. The more voices of reason there are out there, the better. Thank you

[@TirraOmilade]

Sebastian and Nate make me so proud as a Black/African American mom.

[@jordynreed526]

Nate and Sebastian, you are modern day poets, please keep doing your work 💓

[@joannaprevost426]

I'm not Mormon, but grew up in a city that was primarily LDS. I also gave up my organized religion at 13. It just felt fake, wrong and I didn't connect to it. There is a life outside religious indoctrination.

[@learnedempowerment]

"The more you feel, the more likely you are to leave" Truth bomb

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Great metaphor between The Truman Show and Mormonism.

[@TirraOmilade]

Nate and Sebastian, I am so glad that you both completed your degrees in such stressful and antagonistic circumstances. Malcolm X would be proud.

[@tsugal11]

Sebastian’s such a great young man! I’m looking forward to watching him expand his platform now that he’s finished with college. I want to adopt his policy of not putting up with Bullying! He reminds me of my students & what it would be like if they moved to Utah. I’m a public school teacher in a suburb of San Antonio, Texas & my students are 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 Hispanic/latino - we do have quite a few Asian students too. Moving to Utah would be crazy to them & to me! I’m so glad I live in a community with diversity. Our students are so accepting of people…no matter who or what they are. I tell them often how proud I am of them & how they accept people for who they are.

[@thekreactivators]

As a former Black convert this makes me feel seen

[@user-lq4sw1cx5z]

You can feel the soul in the "co-pilot" - the friend. It is a beautiful heart that can face such adversity and still speak with such soul! let these men be an example for us all in our struggles. Make a difference. make the world a better place.

[@SuperLibrarianInTraining]

Reading Beverly Daniel Tatum’s Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria? had a big impact on me. One thing from the book that still resonates with me is the idea that-while I benefit from white privilege/ institutional racism, I can’t be passively antiracist. I can be actively racist, passively racist, or actively antiracist.

[@silktish]

I effing love The Black Menaces! I learned about them here, but they are so so so important. I had no idea that there was a black/mormon intersection until I learned of them and I've been devouring their content ever since. I may be a white ex-mo, but i have my own pressures and prejudices experienced with church culture and while i will forever be deconstructing my own racism, i can certainly relate to some things. We are better together and loving one another as individuals...and fighting for one another as the human fam we are. Thank all three of you fellas for this interview. I learned so much and I have so much to think of. Thank you. You are AWESOME!

[@derekdriggs720]

Really appreciated your sincere story and authenticity Sebastian, as well as your insights Nate. So sorry for the emotional difficulties you went through at BYU.

[@purpleprose78]

This is a solid episode and I'm very much enjoying it. I live and have always lived in a very diverse area and it is hard for me to imagine living in a space as white as Utah. The concept that racism was a thing of the past was never a luxury that I enjoyed. I mean, I met my grandmother and got to listen uncomfortably as she used racial slurs. Being anti-racist is life long work, but in my experience it is worth it. White people who live in super white spaces are insulated from reality and the Black Menaces do good work shaking up that complacency.

[@whitesalamander]

Gotta love how these two young men being authentic demonstrate how absurd Mormonism as manifest by BYU admin really is. 🤣

[@emmastanley4772]

Loved John calling himself out for assuming the debate coach was a man!

[@singer0004]

Ahh excited for this! I've been following him on Instagram

[@jodieasterling1992]

I absolutely love this interview. I am so glad that I am in southern California. My husband and I have been together for 36 years and when we first got together we faced so much bigotry for being together. My sons have put up with all of the cops and everything that comes with racism, but it is not Utah. I can only imagine. I feel for you having to go through that but you are doing the right thing. People have to learn. I appreciate someone who speaks out and tells truth. I also have been working through my biases because I grew up with racist parents. A lot of that sinks in to your soul.

[@ellasigns]

“The sun got brighter” 😂💀 Sebastian I am like a third of the way thru the podcast and can’t wait to hear the rest. You are an incredible storyteller and I’m so happy that you finally have the freedom to tell yours! Also- I feel you on the love for sleep. I have never related to something more 😮‍💨

[@dygz]

Many types of privileges in the US. Try thinking about how the US is set up for right-handed people, rather than left-handed people. And it’s not like people currently hate left-handed people. It’s no longer a thing to force people to switch to being right-handed. But, US culture is designed to make right-handed people comfortable. And it’s rare that we even think about whether left-handed people are comfortable.

[@PtcConsulting]

Wait, what? Black folks are left handed? What an amazing comment

[@LynSmith-zg2qq]

Thank you Sebastian and Nate for this video and Black Menaces. Loved this video! Good luck guys!

[@angelinajardean6484]

Brad Wilcox impression was off the charts hilarious… !!! I support you guys!!!

[@annekimberling2825]

Great interview! Thanks to Sebastian and Nate for sharing your experiences and giving us paths to a way forward towards more love. ❤️

[@DestonieSalazar]

What an amazing discussion. Once again Morman Stories delivers.

[@kentthalman4459]

Growing up in Provo during the '60s/'70s, I was 14 before seeing my first black man in person

[@letahamilton]

I’ve listened to several of the Black Menace podcasts & they are excellent. Recommend.

[@stephcon5458]

Love this episode! Thanks for having them on!! Sebastian obviously has a lot of wisdom to share despite being so young. Cant wait to see what happens post-college for these guys!

[@carolebarnard5116]

I love all the work you do! Thank you so much.

[@walterpierce6061]

This is one of the most interesting things that I have seen for a long time. This young man is really fascinating to listen to and he seems very sincere. I have a lot of respect for the people who are faithful members of the LDS Church but it is important to talk about the real history of the LDS Church and especially concerning the issues around race.

[@reneenolan3163]

I wish we could change the name of BYU!! I am actually glad I did not graduate from BYU!

[@claudetterush1086]

I moved to Provo from Fort Hood TX in the 60s when I was in high school. Cultural Shock! I didn't know how to get along here either and I'm white. It was too weird. So weird. I really hated it.

[@dygz]

Isn’t crazy that Latter Day Saints want to be called Latter Day Saints - when they aren’t actually saints… and it’s still not the latter days???

[@VerbenaComfrey]

This is an incredible episode. Thank you all.

[@sheliabryant3997]

Nate's commentary on missio naries' going into other countries seeing themselves as "saviours' and/or "colonial- ists" whose own otherness remains intact, impermeable - thus, "untouched"/ "inalterable"- when they have returned to SLC is absolutely scalpellary and eloquent. As are, really, all his insights and "expansions". As a university student in Atlanta 1966-70, these two were people by whom I had sensed I was surrounded for years; had hoped to come to KNOW, but feared we would never see a "freedom of association" in my lifetime. IN FAIRNESS, Atlanta was not as "bad" as people might think. But, the cumulative effects of Viet Nam War AND John Birch Society madness had been fomenting concurrently from about 1958 + - and were at a pass of such "moral" volatility - advancing from collective mind to personal conscience - that the flash-point hovered palpably just above one's hairline. One knew that "THE TIME" was "NOW! RIGHT. NOW. " and yet the threat of imminent global nuclear destruction just sucked the very breath of reason and HOPE of resolu tion right out of our nostrils, ears, eyeballs, and brains. What a time. What a sad and glorious time of POTENTIAL for the 😶 HUMANITY of mankind. I think of it now as something like a kitten with the innards of a lion roaring to find its way out of a shoe-box. Maybe because I was a white female Sebastion yet to have a first date and a born REBEL STUFFED FULL OF "CAUSE", it feels now just as it did then. Are we really STILL trying to claw our way out of that g***d shoe-box? How much of FURY is unspent/- inarticulable GRIEF? I could weep like John Larsen right now.

[@janedoe2957]

I love watching them. They have such good humor and I am excited to hear their stories! I audiably went YAYYY when I saw this!

[@alex21mu]

Couldn’t wait for his story

[@danielclingen34]

I wasn’t expecting to see Nate, I feel like I haven’t seen him in forever

[@mads8744]

Oh my gosh!!! so excited for this one!!!!

[@dystoniaawarness3353]

We moved out in the mid 90s to Utah. Children said why is that man so dirty, black father of my children. My children got comments racist constantly. My daughter was jumped by a group of boys yelling n word she came home bleeding it got bad. I called principal and the parent tried bringing me a cake. Her son used to play with my children but he learned from parents to hate and started getting others involved. She started calling police saying gangbangers are at my home. Walk to store ppl would yell n word like it's nothing out car windows.. Follow us around the store. Finally ran back to WA and took my son a year to stop crying if anyone said he wasn't white. It really was alot of trauma. It's still bad

[@MostBoringNameEver]

Oh my GOSH!!! 😱

[@timhazeltine3256]

I'm very sorry for you and your son's trauma. But I'm not surprised.. for over a century LDS theology codified discrimination against people of color. I'm not sure much has changed as LDS approved images of Christ still depict him as a Scandinavian.

[@claudetterush1086]

I don't know what to say but I cannot scroll on without telling you that my heart hurts for your children.

[@TirraOmilade]

So interesting how cowardly Brad Wilcox was when confronted. Speaks volumes!

[@michelleadams1078]

As I’m listening I’m recognizing the difference between growing up an “active” Mormon verses becoming active as a teen whom didn’t faithfully attend seminary. I’m biracial (Mexican and Black) and mainly look Mexican/white. Born in 1977. I heard so much prejudiced rhetoric within the doctrine/teachings and saw racist behavior in Phoenix/Utah. All the lessons on priesthood, church history, celestial kingdom, dichotomy between light and dark in scriptures, Nephites/laminites etc. The prejudices and racism was always apparent. As a person of color I was always making excuses for the inconsistencies, racism, and issues within the church because it’s impossible to make it all make sense especially problematic issues with racism.

[@JohnDoe-yh3oh]

Respect for this conversation!👏

[@jakearlow]

soooo excited for this ❤

[@denisekeeran9883]

Nate's metaphors are blowing me away.

[@bombadillo2]

Stoked for this

[@bernicebrown2527]

Please stop saying Catholic Church is High Demand. It is nothing like Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist and Jehovah Witness.

[@jencendiary]

​@@bernicebrown2527 sorry, karen. If the shoe fits, wear it.

[@Lunatic4Bizcas]

@bernicebrown2527: Catholicism can be high demanding depending on the individual and how involved the individual member decides to get themselves involved. Yes, Mormonism and JW stood apart from other religions of Christendom in the way that the members would typically face direct pressure for going on missions; doing temple service etc, but in recent years overall, that pressure has lessened and for the most part if you become a casual member, the LDS church at least will mostly stay away and leave you alone. This has not been the case of course through most of its history but a recent phenomenon. In that regard, the LDS church and JW's to an extent ( I believe) are becoming more mainline and casual in overall worship and expectation for commitment. This present climate is making what were typically high demand religions become increasingly more relaxed in worship, which is similar to how the normative Catholic experience is. Aside from casual worship becoming common place in Mormonism for instance, another similarity that both LDS and Catholic Church's have is that they are very hierarchical. After all, it is pretty apparent that the Catholic Church laid the blue print for other large religions that have emerged within Christendom thereafter.

[@jakeswanson3831]

What is so wrong with high demanding. The best things in life require sacrifice, challenge and effort. At the end of the day, you can always do less and have peace with that… or walk away. Beauty of choice/agency

[@sheliabryant3997]

​@@jakeswanson3831 FRERE JACQUES! FRERE 🎶 JACQUES! Dormez vous?🎶 Dormez vous?

[@julieabrams7110]

MUCH RESPECT Sebastian and Nate~ Thank you!

[@ProjectDre]

Followed! So proud of these young men! Thanks for sharing their story!

[@pamelatd]

Thank you so much. What an incredible episode!

[@letahamilton]

So wise. 😊

[@AgentXaos]

I'm something of a black menace myself.

[@quinnhansen4091]

Sebastian as an ex Mormon and Marine I offer my military experience to combat the delusional forces that pursue you😂

[@denisekeeran9883]

Still listening, but this line really hit me: It didn't get better, but I got used to the pain.

[@julieprince5538]

I love the Black Menaces 💙 I found them on MS when you had Nate and Rachel on .

[@NathanaelByrd]

Thanks for the support!

[@SLCNON]

So great to see the quality and depth of this discussion. Touches on so many great issues. Loved especially the details about moving to UT and experiencing that culture shock. Thank you for the gift of your story!