Calvinism Debate: Steve Gregg vs James White, Part 3

[@SteveGreggVideos]

Day 4: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h6qyXoSwgr2HjZo

[@scottthong9274]

Good of Gregg to bring the many Old Testament references made in Romans 9 back to the original contexts. Just wish he stressed more on the clay vessels DETERMINING & CHANGING God's plans for them by their own responses, in Jeremiah 18 and also where Paul uses the same analogy again in 2 Tim 20:20-21.

[@Counterpoint_Apologetics]

James White's criticism was not relevant to your position on Romans 9? Uh and nobody is shocked by that. White is a weaver of avoiding the actual argument. He does it all the time on Calvinism.

[@joshanderson759]

😂. James Whites entire legacy is running headlong into arguments. The last thing he does is avoid arguments, he literally spends hours and hours weekly answering argumentation. Severe misrepresentation.

[@Counterpoint_Apologetics]

@@joshanderson759 Actually no! Arguments he can win and feels he has the upper hand. Yes! When it comes to Calvinism and arguments with Flowers and many others. No! You are conflating part of his debates with others. That along with actually dealing with arguments on his show as a response to somebody elses critique of his position. In which he does not deal with the point of actual contention but skirting it.

[@warnerchandler9826]

​@@Counterpoint_ApologeticsI think I have noticed the same. I tend to avoid White's videos like the plague.

[@timothyvenable3336]

I don’t watch White all the time but everything I’ve heard from him is addressing arguments and presenting his case (for the argument). What I do notice is he usually addresses what he thinks(!!) non-Calvinism is instead of what non-Calvinists actually believe. It seems he usually argues around people. But I’ve never seen him dismiss an argument

[@JWar-]

@@joshanderson759 I myself have questions concerning Calvinism that have been articulated very clearly by many people, and have been articulated specifically to James White. He does not respond, or responds to a different argument. It may be true that he spends hours weekly answering argumentation, he just doesn't respond to the arguments that seem to be devastating to Calvinism.

[@jamesmorman1967]

Thank you Mr. Gregg. Of any person on your side of the debate, your explanations have been the clearest to me. When it comes to this debate, I give some credence to the idea that many people subscribe to the explanation they hear first. My wife’s first church was Arminian and the people who brought the Word to me were Calvinists.

[@reynaldodavid2913Jo]

No, where ever you are if you are one of the elect, God will always bring you to the right path...

[@clelladams2326]

@@reynaldodavid2913Jo not if a person disobeys.

[@jackshadow325]

Calvinists don't understand the "What if..." in Romans 9.22, and the refutation of that "What if" Paul gives in chapters 10 and 11, ending with the statement in 11.32: "For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."

[@scottthong9274]

26:00 Gregg was surprised that White didn't actually address the arguments. Any of the many small KZbinrs that White likes to punch down waaaaay below his weight class at, are NOT at all surprised.

[@timothyvenable3336]

I think you misunderstood. Gregg was saying White didn’t address his specific view on Romans 9 but instead addressed a specific view that white thought Gregg held. White addressed the arguments just not directly Gregg’s arguments, it seems

[@scottthong9274]

@@timothyvenable3336 Perhaps I did

[@heavymetalmusichead4969]

As a non-Calvinist, this five part debate is the strongest I've seen White at. At least in part two. Im just beginning part three. Im listening to this after White's most recent debate against Leighton Flowers where Flowers mopped the floor with him. The difference in White's abilities here and in the Flowers debate is black and white, no pun intended. Fortunately, though, Gregg was up to the challenge and has done an excellent job of giving a Biblically holistic explanation of salvation, and refuting the Calvinistic doctrines at every turn. I especially appreciated Steve calling White out on his disingenuous debate tactics- accusing his opponents of misuses the text, dancing around the issues, etc.

[@londonderrry]

30:30 Steve Gregg says: "But he is not talking about the salvation of those men. If he is, he certainly has hidden it well. There is no suggestion here that Ishmael was lost and went to hell, or that Issac went to heaven. They might have, but Paul doesn't discuss it, nor does the Scripture anywhere else discuss it. For all we know Ishmael might have been saved, but that's not at issue here." Really? It is written: "28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Galatians 4:28-31

[@gordon7641]

It’s talking nationally, not individually. It’s the line that Jesus came from, the chosen lineage.

[@austinbryant5787]

Cast out. To where? Or from? Shall we eiseget something into the passage. Like hell or from salvation?

[@austinbryant5787]

Just asking

[@jasonhed]

Calvinism essentially teaches that babies are born with an invisible stamp on their soul that says either “heaven” or “hell.” Anyone who is a Calvinist is clueless about who God is.

[@timothyvenable3336]

Non-Calvinists believe the same thing. Non-Calvinists will just say God knows all things, including the future choice of free agents. So the “stamp” (which is just a terribly superficial analogy) is there, just for different reasons Also, I’m not sure why you think Calvinists don’t know God. They believe God loves everyone, died on the cross for our sins, and if you believe you will have eternal life. As all Christian’s believe

[@jasonhed]

@@timothyvenable3336 No, there is no stamp. God knows but doesn't cause it to happen. The bible says when you hear and believe, then you receive the Holy Spirit. Not that you've been chosen, and the Holy Spirit causes you to believe.

[@timothyvenable3336]

@@jasonhed I get that perspective. I see it the way James White presents it though and I think that is within biblical hermeneutics

[@Charlene-y9i]

​@@timothyvenable3336doomed from the womb is evil and unjust! If you think that is what God stands for....i have no words for you. Sorry.

[@timothyvenable3336]

@@Charlene-y9i but… we are all doomed from the womb? We all sin from birth and are separated from God. It’s only when God steps in through Jesus that we have hope

[@travissharon1536]

It does amaze me that Dr White believes the mention of "the elect" is something only a Calvinst would do. He seems to think that non-calvinists simply deny scripture, rather than having different interpretation.

[@joshanderson759]

The elect are a particular people set aside to be justified to his glory. Same as Isreal was chosen. Its not a hard concept and literally no other way to interpret the words elect, predestined before the foundation of the world.

[@TheAhull15]

^^^^ Case in point

[@treysmith5513]

​@TheAhull15 😂😂😂 Bro all you have to do is ignore the context whenever eklektos or any form of the word appears the Bible stops in its tracks and makes a plug about calvinism!

[@Golden_writes550]

He is his own Pope. Its his church.

[@Golden_writes550]

@@joshanderson759 Israel failed in their calling. These were suppose to be a witness to the world. Acts 13:46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

[@obkook7205]

These debates are great. If I have one critique of Steve Gregg, is that the beginning statements or preamble's drag on and take away from the time that could be allotted to the points of contention. For example, in the first segment Steve takes over 2 minutes setting the argument up. In my opinion it's too long.

[@SteveGreggVideos]

Steve has never been accused of being concise.

[@warnerchandler9826]

As for me, I appreciate the context provided in Mr. Gregg's setups.

[@titusbec2462]

To be fair, when the opposition has the advantage of popularity it is harder to make a positive case when the very premise is in opposition to the more widely known position.

[@JoshxDude92]

Been following James White for a while now. Love his stuff. Never heard of Steve Gregg before this debate. What a charitable guy! We can't be sharpened unless we have someone to disagree with. It's always better when it's charitable and in-house.

[@MB777-qr2xv]

But the problem is the Calvinist believes in a God who CAUSES rape, murder, LGBTQ, child pornography, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism, alcoholism, drug addiction, in fact, any Satanic thing you can think of, according to the Hyper-Calvinist, God causes ALL of these things. That is NOT the God of the Bible who IS LOVE. God allowing all these things to happen UNTIL He deals with them on Judgment Day, is NOT the same as causing them. Are they (Calvinists) worshipping a FALSE God? Galatians 1:9 says, "As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed." This Calvinistic Gospel where God causes EVERYTHING is NOT what Paul preached.

[@AllentheBeloved]

Respect. James white must have limped out of this debate.

[@clelladams2326]

surely you jest. White has 'never lost a debate' because it's always God's will for him to win. LOL He's a legend in his own mind.

[@homemadetheology]

Again... James White... around minute 14 starts the song and dance attacking Mr. Gregg and running out the clock. Interesting.

[@sheilasmith7779]

All that God wills, God desires. All that God desires, God does not will. Over and over in scripture we read of God's anger and disappointment with His human creation. Follow the biblical evidence, not the rhetoric of teachers.

[@stephenwooten6413]

What I can never seem to understand about the Calvinist view on God’s will always being done is why Jesus would teach his followers to pray using words” our father who are in heaven holy is your name, your kingdom come and your will be done on earth as it is in heaven”. Why instruct to pray for his will to be done when it is already going to be done?

[@stephenwooten6413]

As well if man is willed and determined by God to be saved or destroyed, why is Jesus calling the churches in revelation to repent or else?

[@SteveGreggVideos]

There's a lot of things to which some Calvinists would say "it's a mystery" because there are many logical fallacies and contradictions within this system of theology. - Jason

[@reynaldodavid2913Jo]

You misunderstood the prayer, It means that we will always give glory to God for His kindness that He gives us everything we need becsuse His wil in heaven and on earth will always be done..

[@warnerchandler9826]

​@@reynaldodavid2913JoYou don't find it quite strange that he willed you and I to survive to this point, yet he (your God) willed millions of babies to die in the womb by the hands of their own mothers? The Calvinist God is a beast, simply put.

[@warriorpriestblog]

What I find strange is that you seem to think you ought to understand the complete will of God in all things before you judge Him worthy of your worship.

[@markshaneh]

Greg I really appreciate your ministry, your gifted in such away that from milk to meat all can come and be nurtured and fed. Whilst not being a James W fan it was great dialog from you both and much was learnt ✌️

[@mlj6293]

Thanks for the video and debate I have a request apart from the debate can you please do a video or maybe you already have on Christian nationalism. It's in the news lately .. is it biblical? Does it come from David Barton and theonomy?. Some atheist are releasing a documentary soon on Christian nationalism.. Thank you very much

[@SteveGreggVideos]

Steve does not run this channel, but you can find out how to contact him at thenarrowpath.com or thru the Facebook group Steve Gregg - The Narrow Path. Here is a call he took on Christian Nationalism: www.matthew713.com/petersen/call/2022092906

[@mlj6293]

@@SteveGreggVideos thank you

[@reynaldodavid2913Jo]

Christian Nationalism cannot be applied in politics because most politicians are not true Christians, they are either Catholics or atheists...

[@buzzbbird]

Phoenix Reformed Baptists and White had a fight and they expunged him from their whole history. White is not forthcoming about this and claims that it is a private issue. By definition, it is not a private issuesince his position is not a private position. White has since gone to a congregation that he previously roundly condemned, the place that condoned a non-biblical divorce of this daughter and worse, an permitted an adulterous second marriage. He was not THE elder, but AN elder. White used to permit comments on his posts and videos, but no longer does as he has suffered constant and continuous correction and reproof from the Body of Christ, that he looked quite the fool and, well he is So prideful that he cannot permit his image to suffer that AND continue to make a living by teaching heresy and convincing lazy believers out of their salvation.

[@eriste7879]

James White has a bad habit of pretending to misunderstand a point and then rewording his opponents statement to sound stupid.

[@robinq5511]

Steve did an excellent job in his response to White about Israel which I doubt he will ever get...

[@michaelmichael-ci8hi]

first he says it is not just about nations .... then proceeds to talk about nothing but nations ...... which it clearly is not .......

[@anonymousmouse505]

One did linear exegesis to draw meaning from the text regarding the subject of the debate The other read a philosophy into a string of verses.

[@mlj6293]

What about the cultural mandate teaching? have you taught on that?

[@s3rm0n56]

White appealing to an atheists interpretstion of the Bible is a great argument for Calvinism

[@TheReformedChief]

I was an Armenian for the first 25 years of my conversion. The The Holy Spirit led me to listening to debates. With an open bible, not wanting to be a Calvinist, the scriptures verified the obvious.

[@andrewtsousis3130]

So the Holy Spirit led you to believe: 1. Jesus sacrifice wasn’t for all? 2. God decrees everything including all evil for His glory? 3. God allows/enables people to believe in false Gods, and not Him the one true God, but then writes the first commandment “have no other Gods before me”? 4. God doesn’t love everybody. 5. God chose who is saved before they were born and who wasn’t, and sent Christ to die for them only, even when they were saved anyway? 6. God wrote the 10 Commandments as a list of rules for us to follow and choose the right way, even though he predestined everything , and we don’t really have a choice anyway?. 7. God makes Christs sacrifice secondary to His election for salvation. 8. Ones requirement to believe and humble ourselves and come to Christ is no longer our requirement, but Gods to do this for us? 9. Gnostic leaders who had converted to Christianity 500 years after Christ, and introduced Gnostic idealology into a Doctrine and declare that they have the truth. I’m sorry but I don’t think it was the Holy Spirit that led you to believe this stuff. I pray that the Holy Spirit can truly reveal the truth to you.

[@matt_h_27]

@@andrewtsousis3130 boy are you confused…

[@joeadrian2860]

@@matt_h_27 Is'nt he? I mean Geez! Arminians are a confusing lot.

[@ChristianTrinity411]

From Armenia huh?

[@JWar-]

@@joeadrian2860 This is simply a list of the logical outcomes of your system. You just don't understand Calvinism.

[@andrewhundeby]

I think it is odd that James White got his Calvinistic Theology from atheist 41 min.

[@noobitronius]

That's not at all what he said. Very uncharitable.

[@andrewhundeby]

@@noobitronius After re-listening to it you are correct, he was saying that the atheist was surprised White was defending determinism. I miss heard him.

[@noobitronius]

@@andrewhundeby thanks for correcting that! Respect

[@jackshadow325]

Acts 13.48 -- Their hearts were lined up and ready to believe. Like a man ready to fall in love. It does not mean they were predestined to believe from eternity past.

[@jeremyhewitt2637]

Wrong it’s not a negative position. You can say I am a conservative not a non liberal and then argue what a non liberal is. You can say I am a liberal and just say what it is that is a liberal. Not saying you are a liberal-just an example. You illicit a false conundrum from your opening statement to obscure and detract the issue-to merely offend the issue of the other side(the negative ) instead of presenting project work what your person to inform Somone who may be ignorant to what it is. I do really enjoy your tactful conversation and your respect

[@jeremyhewitt2637]

It’s also very altruistic to claim your so called natural reading. In the self affirmed will of our intentions -do we so seek him-or does true wisdom inevitably seek God.

[@roywood8598]

You can tell the guys like White, although confident, they are nervous about Steve's approach and knowledge. Steve articulates in plain English and with simple exegesis in using Scripture. James does his usual. His attitude wreaks of arrogance.

[@cindybaker7153]

I keep hearing that a person needs to be taught to be a Calvinist. I was raised as an Armenian and went to a very conservative Armenian seminary. While in a salvation class, I came out with even more questions. While witnessing to others I would read scripture with them and the question would yell out at me. How can this be a gift if we come to Him. If I go to Him, then it is a work. I never heard of Calvinism nor election. When someone showed me and my husband shared Calvinism, it answered every question that I was seeing in the Bible. It made me want to witness even more, learn of God’s holiness even more. I belong to him because He chose me m, how loving that is. He bought me with a price. Seeing His sovereignty and choice in the Bible from genesis to Revelation as a whole completely changed my relationship with Him.

[@mrupholsteryman]

Would your relationship with God be different if you were told you could be a vessel appointed for wrath?

[@tedbastwock3810]

If you hand a homeless man on the street a hundred dollar bill did he work for it?

[@jzlove5088]

Isn’t sharing the gospel message with a non-elect person a lie? How can one share the gospel if the majority of the population is determined by God to go to hell? If Jesus didn’t die on the cross for ALL, THE WHOLE WORLD, EVERYONE…. According to Calvinism…God determined this and Jesus didn’t die for the majority of the world, he only died and atoned for the sin of the elect….Gods chosen people. The rest are determined to hell, but held accountable or culpable even though they didn’t have a choice, God determined their actions, God determines everything according to Calvinism, even evil. John Piper will tell you that rapists, child molesters, murderers, etc.. are all determined to do what they did by God Himself. These sickos didn’t choose to do evil, God did it for them for His purposes and for His sovereign plan Which means…. The majority of the world has NO HOPE they cannot be saved, it has already been determined by God before the foundation of the earth was created. Which then means… preaching the gospel message to a non-elect person is literally telling them a lie, you are telling them there is hope, that there is a savior, that Jesus can save them…THAT IS A LIE! GOD HAS ALREADY DETERMINED THEY WILL SUFFER IN HELL FOR ETERNITY WITHOUT ANY CHANCE AT SALVATION.

[@truththroughlove1012]

​@@jzlove5088God determined to glorify Christ, and His goodness, yet you people still can't forget to put yourself in the picture and get mad bc you are scared you won't get any glory. Maybe you don't understand that it's not about us, it's about Him. Please see this, please forget yourself. That's why we must die to live. We must lay down our need to be the point of creation. It's not about us, it's about Him and that's enough for me.

[@tedbastwock3810]

@@truththroughlove1012 ironic how your comments contradict your handle

[@poormanstacker]

After white said, what does pharaoh has to do with it. Amen. Good job James. It troubles me to white. I wasn’t raised calvinist nor in a church whatsoever. But the way people viewed end times, free will etc never settled right with me. Scripture teaches Calvinism. I’m an example. Amen good stuff fellas.

[@atyt11]

Just curious. Scripture teaches, God created an entire world of people in His image? who hate Him? who are His enemies? picks some to not hate Him? and…. to bring Him glory, He torments the rest for all eternity? Is that about right?

[@atyt11]

@@poormanstacker No disrespect, I think this analogy misses. Aiming (Determining) blindfolded people to a cliff then grabbing a few before they plumet to their death is not loving, mercifully or in anyway like the God of the Bible. Like saving someone from burning building that you set fire to is not being a Hero. In calvinism, people are a slave to sin because god determined them to be that way. Their heart of stone was put there by god himself. Please show how I am wrong in that assesment. Question for you. Please try to explain love without FREEwill. Please try to explain sin without FREEwill.

[@reynaldodavid2913Jo]

​@@atyt11, You are wrong, God did not create all people in His image and likeness, only Adam and his descendants.. Cain and his descendants were not created in God's image and likeness.. You cannot find a verse in the bible that said, God created all people in His image..

[@reynaldodavid2913Jo]

​@@atyt11, You are wrong, God did not create all people in His image and likeness, only Adam and his descendants.. Cain and his descendants were not created in God's image and likeness.. You cannot find a verse in the bible that said, God created all people in His image..

[@reynaldodavid2913Jo]

​@@poormanstacker, You are wrong, there are indeed people who are born to believe and others born not to believe...

[@travissharon1536]

20:30 Dr White talks about God's purpose in a particular moment in time. He fails to take into account that His prophecy was fufilled 70 years outside of the timeframe given by our LORD. Maybe God did wait until there was a Pharoah that met God's design, just maybe... Also 44:20 Being appointed or pardoned share something, that is that both of them require the recipient to accept them. If the governor wanted to pardon me for something or appoint me to a position, I would need to receive them first.

[@michaelmichael-ci8hi]

"Maybe God did wait until there was a Pharoah that met God's design" God does not make mistakes ..... nor does He just make it up as He goes ..... or have a plan B ..... that is a very low view of who He is ......

[@warriorpriestblog]

But why would you ever receive it if you despise the governor, hate everything He stands for and seek to have him overthrown? Ephesians 2:3. Romans 3:11-12.

[@travissharon1536]

@michaelmichael-ci8hi I didn't say God made a mistake. I am just pointing out that 470 years is not 400 years exactly. Do you follow the God of James White, or the God of the Bible?

[@michaelmichael-ci8hi]

@@travissharon1536 so you are saying God got it wrong ..... and that scripture is in error ..... or you are trying to fit it into your own paradigm ....... and not the God of the bible ......... God does not make errors ...... and your calculation of more than 400 years is in error .... and that therefore God made an error ...... cuz what else is there ...... God sat there twiddling His thumbs waiting ........ God is either in meticulous control of ALL of His creation ..... down to the very last molecule and atom and intention of men ..... for the GOOD of His creation at all times .... in every place ..... or He Is Not God ............... and i guess we ... not being God ..... can sneak up on Him and surprise Him ...... now who is unbiblical ......

[@andrewtsousis3130]

You cannot argue that the default position of scripture is free will, and that God demands mankind to make choices. White doesn’t address this issue with any convincing argument, he jumps straight to Romans calvanistic proof text and changes the subject. The Calvinistic doctrine has to prove its legitimacy, and it can’t.

[@homemadetheology]

Minute 41:29 New low for Dr White... siting an atheist to makes his case... too funny.

[@michaelmichael-ci8hi]

it wasnt to 'make his case' ...... it was juxtaposition ....... but nice try to deflect ..........

[@netsolutionsvpn]

Listen to it again but slowly. Thank me later

[@homemadetheology]

@@netsolutionsvpn 😂

[@godwinrebeiro7852]

Listening to Steve gregg's interpretation of Romans 9 was like the whole armenian system being imposed on the text.. Felt like somehow he wants to provide a Non calvinistic reading, May be even at the expense of the text itself. And to consider that the default understanding seems quite unfair to me.. Because Reading every single line of Romans 9 dosen't bring you to the conclusion this guy arrived at.. Simply breaked the flow of the text as it appears to me. i think James white, without jumping from verses/swallowing verses, did his Job pointing out how this particular Armenian interpretation is also clearly misapplied here.

[@Vae07]

The Armenian view is supported and upheld by people who believe in their heart that Gods sovereignty over people going to hell is unacceptable and could not possibly be true and with they interpret scripture through the lens of their bias.

[@matt_h_27]

Interpretation of Steve’s opening: New readers, new believers, those with no understanding or literacy in the scriptures and who have not yet been transformed by the renewing of their minds to any degree will default to the non-Calvinist view. It is only after studying the scriptures objectively and having some transformation take place in one’s mind that people will become more Calvinistic.

[@joeadrian2860]

Absolutely totally agree. Listening to Steve trying to explain the Jacob/Esau passage is an exercise in "how to really muff this section up badly". I'm no theologian but White is sound; Steve is trying to justify something that is not in the text. He's making this a birthright issue referring to the nation or people whom God chose to bring about the birth of Jesus. I'm going to wait to hear White on this piece. I've heard this before and it not biblical at all 32 minute mark.....Chosen for privilege and one not chosen for privilege leading to privilege that becomes salvific and one that does not lead to being saved. This is going to be good! No it's not lol! He batted that away within the first 2 minutes LOL!

[@steventhompson8130]

Not all those who are of Israel are Israel. Why? Only the Israelites who believe are truly Israel, for the promises are by the faith of Abraham. The grace of God onto salvation is accessed by faith: *Romans 1:16-17; Romans 5:1-2.*

[@mattverville9227]

This Gregg guy got dog walked everyday of this debate. I blame it partially on the way the debate is set up though but Gregg having a tough time keeping up. Hopefully he gets into the debate in these last days. I'm hoping to hear how he responds to some of these things

[@drummersagainstitk]

All Calvinists should be required to watch The Soft White Underbelly channel everyday for one year. At the end of one year if you still affirm God's "decree" then you're just an ideologue. "We believe in Free Will because we know about it's behaviors but not about its causes" Jonathan Edwards.

[@christopherneedham9584]

This comment reeks of something an ideologue would say. It’s entirely possible that someone can study everything Calvinism says and reject it without being an ideologue, and vice versa with Arminianism. Reasonable minds can differ

[@csabaarvai8978]

The subject here is not about God's sovereignty,but His character! For He is sovereign,He have the right to destroy the bad clay,no doubt about that! The question is, did the potter created the bad clay or the clay have the right to go bad? The plan of salvation was ready before the creation of men kind.Who put into the heart of Judas to betray Him, God? or the devil? He chose who to listen! The rebellion in heaven was about God's character, Lucifer lied about His character and did not accept His sovereignty . The Calvinist accept the sovereignty but have trouble with the character!

[@kimmykimko]

How can God's character be separated from his Sovereignty? He decrees soverign decrees on behalf of his character, He wants to show Himself and indeed does. People just reject His personality.

[@reynaldodavid2913Jo]

WHAT is the BIBLICAL Docrtrine of ELECTION and PREDESTINA TION? Jesus revealed this doctrine of Election and Predestination in the parable of Wheat and Tares In this parable, Jesus revealed the doctrine of election and pre destination..and who are those people who are predestined to be saved, and those predestined to be burned in the lake of fire.. Jesus revealed in this parable that those who are predestined to be saved are the children of God literally.. And those who are predestined to be cast to the Lake of fire are the children of the devil literally.. Adam and his descendants are the children of God because Adam is a true son of God as revealed in Luke 3:38... Cain and his descendants are the children of the devil because Cain is the seed of the serpent(devil) as mentioned in Genesis 3:15... Cain is not the son of Adam, he is not included in the Genealogy of Adam in Genesis 5... Cain has his own Genealogy in Genesis 4.. all the descendants of Cain are very evil people like him... Jesus revealed in this parable also that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world, they are the children of God literally and the children of the devil literally The children of God are called Elect, and the children of the devil are called reprobates... Sometimes Jesus called the Elect Sheep and the Reprobate Goat.. All the Elect are predestined to be saved, and all the Reprobates are predestine to be burned in the Lake of Fire... Jesus gave His Life only for the Sheep(Elect) John 10:15 EXAMPLE of the children of the devil can be found in John 8:44 EXAMPLE of the children of God can be found in Psalm 82:6 and in Romans 8:14.. Having the knowledge of the Parable of Wheat and Tares can answer the age-old Mystery of what will happen to a newly born child who died or to the unborn fetus who died in the womb.. GOD BLESS YOU ALL WHO BELIEVES IN THIS REVELATION OF JESUS IN THE PARABLE OF WHEAT and TARES...

[@Charlene-y9i]

​@@kimmykimkowhy not? What do you base this on?

[@steventhompson8130]

The Potter (God) forms the clay for salvation or condemnation depending on how the clay responds in His hands. God judges the clay (nations and individuals in those nations) by their own choices, and not that God has predestined such nations and peoples to reject God or to repent and believe. Sure, God predestines, but that predestination regards God’s promise to conform us to the image of Lord Jesus (Romans 8:29). This promise is for all those who love God (the true faith) manifested by walking in the Spirit who indwells them by faith in Lord Jesus. *Jeremiah 18:1-12* (WEB) The word which came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear my words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and behold, he was making something on the wheels. 4 When the vessel that he made of *the clay was marred in the hand* of the potter, he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then Yahweh’s word came to me, saying, 6 “House of Israel, can’t I do with you as this potter?” says Yahweh. “Behold, as the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, house of Israel. 7 At the instant I speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up and to break down and to destroy it; 8 if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to them. 9 At the instant I speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 if they do that which is evil in my sight, that they not obey my voice, then I will repent of the good with which I said I would benefit them. 11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Yahweh says: “Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a plan against you. Everyone return from his evil way now, and amend your ways and your doings.”’ *2 Timothy 2:19-22* (WEB) However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.” 20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 *If anyone therefore purges himself from these,* he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee from youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. *Romans 6:2* Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how can we live in it any longer? *Galatians 5:24-25* (WEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit. Therefore, God is Righteous in his actions, holding everyone responsible for how they respond in his hands. God shows no partiality or favoritism in His justice. God forms or prepares those for destruction who refuse to repent, doing evil rather than good, in opposition to God’s revelation of himself. People reject God by either refusing to believe, or by falling away from the faith. *God shows mercy on whom he will show mercy, and compassion on whom he will show compassion* (Romans 9:15). Regarding salvation, God desires to have mercy on all *(Romans 11:32),* but God is just; in that, his mercy and compassion are on those who repent and believe evidenced by doing what is right. And God’s wrath is on those who refuse His grace. *Romans 14:14-15* (WEB) 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. *Romans 11:32* (KJV) 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Regarding salvation, God’s mercy is extended to everyone without partiality by the drawing of the Gospel and convicting of the Spirit. Many refuse God’s mercy because of their own obstinate pride. *John 12:32* (WEB) And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. The drawing is not effectual, for the Word and the Spirit can be resisted and refused. *Acts 7:51* (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, {{{you always resist the Holy Spirit!}}} As your fathers did, so you do.

[@johnwilliams5570]

19:00 Romans 9 is about nations

[@joshanderson759]

Lol, how much do you have to read in and ignore the actual exegesis to land there. Romans 9 can't be more clear, nothing hard to understand or unclear about it.

[@poormanstacker]

So Paul would cut himself off for nation purposes? 😅

[@kimmykimko]

Nations are made up of individuals. Would you deny that Christ's body is made of individuals?

[@johnwilliams5570]

@@kimmykimko I would not deny that. But the point of Romans 9 is to show that Israel was second and became firstborn, and at that time Paul was explaining the same thing was happening to the nations. "to Israel first, then to the world"

[@tedbastwock3810]

Good point, kind of takes the air out of that whole section from White. On the other hand, context never does seem very important to Calvinists.

[@jcgoodman65]

Revelation 2:21,22 And I ( Lord Jesus ) gave her time so she could repent, and she does not want to repent of her sexual immorality. Look! I am throwing her onto a bed of suffering, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works. Lord Jesus is clearly allowing people to choose His will or not.

[@austinbryant5787]

Ok last one Ephesians 1 slaves to sin Dulous in the greek. Bondservants Those who choose sin. Just throwing this out there. Idk if it will do anything for yall but i read this and was like dang. We chose sin. God didnt decree this. It was our desire. Not Gods

[@kimmykimko]

These debates almost tire me. I want people to understand the unfathomable wisdom and power of God, but if they will not...let them believe whatever they wish and let us all find out on That Day. If you understood what was really going on in the world, you may think of this as small fish. I have bigger fish to fry, Godspeed to those who know and continue to seek truth by the Spirit and Word alone.

[@warnerchandler9826]

Sounds like no reason for you to listen, let alone comment.

[@reynaldodavid2913Jo]

WHAT is the BIBLICAL Docrtrine of ELECTION and PREDESTINA TION? Jesus revealed this doctrine of Election and Predestination in the parable of Wheat and Tares In this parable, Jesus revealed the doctrine of election and pre destination..and who are those people who are predestined to be saved, and those predestined to be burned in the lake of fire.. Jesus revealed in this parable that those who are predestined to be saved are the children of God literally.. And those who are predestined to be cast to the Lake of fire are the children of the devil literally.. Adam and his descendants are the children of God because Adam is a true son of God as revealed in Luke 3:38... Cain and his descendants are the children of the devil because Cain is the seed of the serpent(devil) as mentioned in Genesis 3:15... Cain is not the son of Adam, he is not included in the Genealogy of Adam in Genesis 5... Cain has his own Genealogy in Genesis 4.. all the descendants of Cain are very evil people like him... Jesus revealed in this parable also that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world, they are the children of God literally and the children of the devil literally The children of God are called Elect, and the children of the devil are called reprobates... Sometimes Jesus called the Elect Sheep and the Reprobate Goat.. All the Elect are predestined to be saved, and all the Reprobates are predestine to be burned in the Lake of Fire... Jesus gave His Life only for the Sheep(Elect) John 10:15 EXAMPLE of the children of the devil can be found in John 8:44 EXAMPLE of the children of God can be found in Psalm 82:6 and in Romans 8:14.. Having the knowledge of the Parable of Wheat and Tares can answer the age-old Mystery of what will happen to a newly born child who died or to the unborn fetus who died in the womb.. GOD BLESS YOU ALL WHO BELIEVES IN THIS REVELATION OF JESUS IN THE PARABLE OF WHEAT and TARES...

[@robinq5511]

If people wait until the day they die it will be too late. In "That Day" there was a judgment coming which is why all the warnings to hold fast. Our job if you choose to accept it, is to present the Gospel message clearly, so those who have ears to hear might receive it and be saved. Then "well done good and faithful servant" is what we can hope to hear. (Rom 10:27) The word of God is what is at stake in these debates so we must be like the noble Bereans.

[@austinbryant5787]

This debate fires me up and fuels me to search the scriptures!

[@sparkyy0007]

...and they made their sons to pass through the fire, a thing which never entered my mind. Calvinism makes God a liar.

[@joshanderson759]

Armenians make the bible a liar. Calvinism is what naturally flows from the text.

[@sparkyy0007]

@@joshanderson759 Explain that verse in light of Calvinism.

[@kimmykimko]

Many things God didnt require to be done yet were done by the wicked. Does that make God wicked? You lack much insight and studying, your statement is less than sophomoric in terms of Biblical understanding.

[@sparkyy0007]

@@kimmykimko Insults are not arguments, nor did you even attempt to address that verse which is antithetical to Calvinism. In fact, Calvinism asserts the opposite of your assertions in that God controls absolutly everything including those deeds of the wicked you speak of in that they had no choice in their actions. By your statement and reluctance to give a logical response, it seems you don't actually realise the dire implications of Calvinist theology which is quite common. To be sure, there is absolutly no difference between Calvinism and atheistic naturalism. Both ideologies make man little more than a puppet driven by forces entirely beyond his control. God is indeed absolutely sovereign, ya sovereign enough to have the free will to make man in his own image....with free will to choose to love him or not. There is no love without free will. Peace and Love God bless you all

[@tedbastwock3810]

well said @@sparkyy0007

[@kbrad1267]

The reason that Steve cannot believe or accept the truth of the gospel of God's grace and his sovereignty election of who is saved and not saved is because the natural man in his unconverted state hates the true God and is still full of self pride , self love , self righteousness, and incapable of submitting himself over to the sovereign will God, but demand his own ,because its still in that fallen condition separated from God being spiritual Dead. And unless God makes him spiritually alive first he cannot discern the words in the Bible because they are spirit . And Steve evidently is still trying to understand the Bible by his own wisdom of man while it's still in its natural state .

[@SteveGreggVideos]

Or perhaps that is what you are doing. 😂 ~ Jason

[@kbrad1267]

@@SteveGreggVideos God's children does not know the God you preach or the false Christ you declare, but the devil does! his the creator of him.

[@Charlene-y9i]

I am a child of God and i reject your doomed from the womb fabricated gospel. Its evil and unjust.

[@austinbryant5787]

I think he understands the scripture well my brother. Sorry you feel that way and so passionate about your theology.

[@kbrad1267]

Steve is totally wrong when I first started reading and studying the Bible at the age of 33 the first impression that I got from the scriptures is that unless God save me by his choice and will I would go to hell and deserved it for I was nothing but wicked and evil continuously and without hope if i was left to my own evil heart and could not be saved unless I was one of his elect because he was absolutely sovereign over all things including my salvation... In fact i was convinced by the Bible of my own condition of being totally depraved and Gods sovereign election for my salvation for the first 4 or 5 years, before I ever even ran across a Calvinistic or reformed teacher or preacher always wondering if I had made up my own doctrine's and deceiving myself with my own thinking because all the other preachers I would seek and question about what I was finding in God's words that I was convinced of to be true, rebuked and tried to convince me I was not interpreting the scriptures correctly and My beliefs were not right because they were all on the Arminiuns side . But thanks be to God he confirmed my faith to be true by leading me to men of God like John MacArthur,R.C Sproul and many other's that also taught the same doctrine's I got from just reading Gods words.😊 Which proved even more to me unless God gives a person his Mercy and Grace and his spirit he can not understand, nor even capable of excepting these true doctrines laid out in the scriptures and Calvinism describe in the acronym TULIP. The natural man the unconverted man like steve hates these true Doctrines of the faith simply because it takes the work of God himself in the sinner to believe them.

[@kbrad1267]

@@YuelSea-sw2rp not true, the preachers that God says does not know the elect from the non-elect wall still a reprobate , they all look alike in word and deeds, so the regeneration that takes place in the reprobates heart is revealed and put to work in the elects heart and conscience by the preaching of the word, now because of God's work of grace now once and willingly accepts it when he hears the outwardly call of the gospel, because he it is no longer spiritually dead but made spiritually alive changing his nature , now he loves the things of God instead of hating them, like the doctrine of election, his Providence , his predestination and election of his church and children,(the sovereignty of God) and so on, and agrees with God's description of the total depravity of his nature and inability to save himself and totally dependent on God's mercy and grace alone , which humbles the sinner and puts him into the fear of the LORD, that drives him to God on his knees beging for his mercy and forgiveness.. , so being humbled by the grace of God in the work and power of the Holy Spirit upon his heart to reveal how ungodly and sinful he is , he is now willing and able to accepts and believe the gospel. Because of the work of God in the reprobate's heart , and starting the process of regeneration in his children's heart the sinner is now able and been prepared for being transformed into the likeness of his son until he is completely glorified in heaven...

[@kbrad1267]

@@YuelSea-sw2rp second if you think the entire gospel is just preaching the word so someone so you buy your preaching can save them you definitely don't know the true gospel. It is by the power and work of God and Jesus Christ alone and the Holy Spirit that saves the person, and is the job of the preacher to reveal, seek out his sheep separating them from the goat's , then protect ,prepare, equip, encourage, and edify, correct , discipline, defend, the ones that God has given to his preacher's, and keep the devil and the ones after them out of God's house . (Church) my guess is you let the devil's children in to your God's church ,which drives his flock and children out of your church. The devil in the wickeder after an attack God's children they don't care about the world they already have them.

[@kbrad1267]

@@YuelSea-sw2rp God sends the preacher to seek out his elect and then when they are revealed to the preacher he is to protect them and keep them from the devil and the things of this world. .

[@kbrad1267]

@@YuelSea-sw2rp this is why I do not go into a church like a Arminiuns. Because there are more of the devil's children in it than Gods children... God commands we do not congregate with the wicked or keep company with the ungodly for it is an abomination to God. It's to be a house of worship for God's children not the devil's.

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

You received Christ because you were convicted by Scripture. That isn't Calvinism.

[@brandonfurlong6322]

I’m shocked how bad Steve is here….

[@jayvansickle7607]

Really .... the Calvinist and the Non-Calvanist, have the same problem. Because, even for the Non-Calvinist, God is deciding when to intervene, and when Not-to. Which, in of itself is a choice of approval... at least of the outcome. Which, in part, alleviates God of direct guilt (which the Calvinst would say is the case as well)... but, at least, having passive guilt. Moreover, if you take the creation story, and the narrative of God and Angels, as literal....that compounds the problem for both. The angels were able to rebel....and God allowed them to survive to tempt people. And, God allowed the serpent (whether it be Satan, or just a talking snake) to tempt Eve... when He could've chosen to Not allow it. And, on top of that...God put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden WITH them. The one thing they weren't supposed to eat from. Not to mention, that he created that tree to begin with.... Under most scenarios, that would be called entrapment. All of that is besides the fact.... that God could've created the Universe Any way He wanted....but, chose the Universe and the rules & consequences that lead to most people in history being tormented in Hell forever.

[@lbamusic]

No problem! Sovereign Creator God does things His own way regardless of what you or I think of it...!! His will is done on earth as it is in Heaven..thats good enough for me!!

[@jayvansickle7607]

@@lbamusic So...whatever it looks like to us, God is good, and is doing everything the right way? Isn't that just a way to explain away ANYTHING...without really having to explain anything?

[@lbamusic]

​@@jayvansickle7607.. not really, All it means to me is that God created me, and does what He wants to do, without my approval or disapproval - thats the quintessential definition of what a Sovereign God is and does.

[@jayvansickle7607]

@@lbamusic it’s also unfalsifiable.

[@buzzbbird]

God actually is NOT free, as White describes it, because God cannot lie and God obligated himself to fulfill his own words about what he will do: Jas_4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 1Pe_5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

[@williamtolbert5011]

I believe in predestination because it is well taught in holy scripture. i do believe the longer I live the more I am convinced that Jehovah God made some folks for Heaven in eternally and other folks their Heaven is only here on earth in time to make of it what they will. Rather rich or poor, slave or free. when their physical life has FINISHED, THEY ARE ENDED FOR EVER, NO ETERNAL HEAVEN FOR THEM, THE REASONS ARE ONLY IN THE MINE OF GOD HIMSELF WHY THEY MISSED THE BOAT, GOD THE FATHER PLANNED IT THAT WAY FOR HIS REASONS ONLY. The problem with the human is he/she thinks that the world is in their control, that they have a say in the matters when in fact their whole life was pre-planned by Jehovah God to work out his fore- knowledge for his divine reasons. I believe that there is such a thing as limited atonement. Where only the Elect of God from the foundations of the World Jehovah God chose a Family that would be his family though out all eternally, Chosen by Him Alone NOT BY HUMAN MAN AND PROTECTED BY HIS DIVINE SON OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. OUR JOB AS HIS AMBASSADORS TO PREACH THE FATHERS SAVING GOSPEL TO ALL IN HOPE OF FINDING HIS ELECT. I DON'T OR WE DON'T KNOW WHO IS AND WHO IS NOT THE FATHER'S ELECT BUT THE MESSAGE IS TO ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE. THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING OF CALVINISM AND BELIEVES IT STANDS ON ITS OWN MERITS. MOST CHURCHES DON'T TEACH A SAVING GOSPEL TO BEGIN WITH AND STAND AS APOSTATES TO THE TRUTH OF GODS WORD. THEY ARE ENTERTAINMENT CENTERS AND WILL FACE JUDGEMENT FOR IT. SO AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED MOST SO-CALLED CHRISTIAN CHURCHES HAVE STINKEN THINKING ANYWAY AND WOULD NOT KNOW EVEN WHAT DR. WHITE AND THE OTHER PASTOR-TEACHER IS DEBATING ABOUT. THEY ARE THE WOKE GENERATION WISER BUT WEAKER AS THE BIBLE POINTS OUT IN DANIEL 12TH CHAPTER. GOD HELP US. MARANATHA

[@matt_h_27]

It’s interesting that Steve refuses to deal with any of White’s points that absolutely destroy the non-Calvinist position and that Sieve completely ignores the salvific language of Romans 9.

[@Saratogan]

Steve Gregg: "Elect" has another meaning? Elect, noun "one chosen or set apart". Every major dictionary has this singular definition. There is no other definition.

[@matt_h_27]

If you’d like to see God having a sovereign decree, Steve, I introduce you to Eph 1:11 and Romans 8:28

[@SteveGreggVideos]

Yep, Steve's completely unfamiliar with those verses. Romans 8:15-39 kzbin.info/www/bejne/j16zZ5yOp99gi9Usi=ppkekuExz1c0Eckh Ephesians 1:1-14 kzbin.info/www/bejne/pWGkYXx3lp6Eas0si=DS--Wnjs55iCbZlA

[@joshsimpson10]

When i read the bible it 100% points to God being totally Soverign and has total control over all things The Church Fathers agree with that 😂 the problem is how people define free will. Not even the Church Fathers define free will in a way that isn't arbitrary, and you do the same thing. That doesn't mean they weren't great saints and were in the body of Christ because they affirmed the supremacy of the Triune God. Your modern view of synergism and removing Gods Sovereign Will goes against the Church Fathers Im less than half this man's age and can recognize this.

[@noncalvinistbydecree1672]

More notable and scholarly Calvinist affirm the early church fathers don't teach Calvinism. Prior to Augustine, no one taught Calvinism. That's just a fact.

[@joshsimpson10]

@noncalvinistbydecree1672 Idk what "teaching calvinism" means. But I do know plenty will obfuscate the truth to manufacture your narrative. Like you are tremendously wrong. Clement of Rome And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[@joshsimpson10]

@@noncalvinistbydecree1672 Clement of Rome He who is chaste in flesh should not be proud, for he should know that he owes the gift of continence to another.

[@noncalvinistbydecree1672]

@@joshsimpson10 It's obvious when someone is teaching Calvinism. For your Clement quote, that isn't Calvinistic, and none of the quotes you cited didactically teach any Calvinistic doctrine. It's vague at best. Clement says we're called in Christ, not before we're in Christ, and we're justified by faith. There's just nothing Calvinistic about any of this. I can easily understand it and agree with it as a non-Calvinist. The earliest known person cited teaching Unconditional Election is Augustine. “Calvinism is known for its stand in favor of unconditional election, but it is not unique to Calvin and his heirs. This doctrine is found in the writings of some of the church fathers, especially Augustine, and was held by some of the greatest writers of the medieval era, including Gregory the Great, Bonaventure, Albert the Great, and Thomas Aquinas.” - Michael Horton The earliest person cited teaching Original Sin according to Calvin was Augustine. “This is the hereditary corruption to which early Christian writers gave the name of original sin, meaning by the term of depravation of a nature formerly good and pure… The orthodoxy, therefore, and more especially Augustine, labored to show, that we are not corrupted by acquired wickedness, but bring an innate corruption from the very womb.” - John Calvin RC Sproul only cites as early as Augustine as well. "“Again we are forced back to the question of the extent of original sin. If original sin involves moral inability, as Augustine and the magisterial Reformers insisted, then faith can occur only as the result of regeneration, and regeneration can occur only as a result of effectual or irresistible grace.”" RC/Boettner says the same about the Calvinist view of predestination. “Virtually nothing in John Calvin’s view of predestination, however, was not first in Martin Luther, and before Luther in Augustine.” - RC Sproul “From the time of Augustine until the time of the Reformation very little emphasis was placed on the doctrine of Predestination." - Loraine Boettner "“It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of Predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century.” - Loraine Boettner Loraine Boettner even says the same thing about Irresistible Grace: "“This cardinal truth of Christianity [Irresistible Grace] was first clearly seen by Augustine, the great Spirit-filled theologian of the West.” And those are just some of the Calvinist sources. Even your scholars don't go beyond Augustine as the first person to teach Calvinist doctrine. That's why you could only cite a quote that doesn't teach Calvinism, unless you put your Calvinist understanding into it. Clement did not teach any uniquely Calvinist doctrine. Regarding Limited Atonement, Justin Martyr certainly did not hold that view: “But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race, He endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him…" He believed Jesus became man for the human race. That would be every person. And that's in the context of the incarnation and death of Christ. Athanasius believed the death of Christ was for all: “For this reason, therefore, He assumed a body capable of death, in order that it, through belonging to the Word Who is above all, might become in dying a sufficient exchange for all, and, itself remaining incorruptible through His indwelling, might thereafter put an end to corruption for all others as well, by the grace of the resurrection. It was by surrendering to death the body which He had taken, as an offering and sacrifice free from every stain, that He forthwith abolished death for His human brethren by the offering of the equivalent. For naturally, since the Word of God was above all, when He offered His own temple and bodily instrument as a substitute for the life of all, He fulfilled in death all that was required.” Even pre-faith regeneration, you have fathers teaching contrary to that. Justin Martyr says, “And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.” There's no evidence to suggest Christians believed regeneration came prior to faith, which the Calvinist system hinges on that point entirely. There is so much more that could be said, but with your Clement of Rome quote, that's clear evidence there's no quote you can find of a church father clearly writing in favor of any uniquely Calvinist doctrine, which is why so many Calvinist scholars cite Augustine first, and then people after him, because no one before the ex-Gnostic Augustine, taught these gnostic doctrines. Calvinist scholar Loraine Boettner even says that the earliest Christians thought that men have the power to accept or reject the gospel. "“The earlier church fathers placed chief emphasis on good works such as faith, repentance, almsgiving, prayers, submission to baptism, etc., as the basis of salvation. They of course taught that salvation was through Christ; yet they assumed that man had full power to accept or reject the gospel.” If early Christians believed that, then by default they couldn't have been Calvinists. Even your scholars oppose what you're saying, and certainly the earliest Christians contradict your view as well. You cannot prove the earliest Christians believed Calvinism.

[@joshsimpson10]

@noncalvinistbydecree1672 you just spurged out but can't accept Clement was teaching the supremacy of God over man clear as day. Sorry I don't really care if people cite augustine first, that doesn't change the fact you are wrong

[@matt_h_27]

Sovereignty does not mean “the right to make decisions” Steve. Sovereignty has to do with control over one’s domain. And oh by the way, the Bible does use the word sovereign. ”which He will bring about at the proper time-He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of Lords,“ ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6‬:‭15‬ ‭

[@JohnMackeyIII]

How has steve gotten along with such childish forms of debate and argumentation. Steve has essentially lost all respect I had for him.. I have put him in the weak league of flowers!😂😂😂

[@Lee-xn8by]

I wish more people treated calvinism like the blasphemous heresy it is!

[@Saratogan]

Romans 9-11 is summarized by this verse: "For of Him and through Him and To Him are all things." To the Arminian all things are not all things. There are things that must be excluded from this universal statement.

[@noncalvinistbydecree1672]

And God so loved the world... To the Calvinist, "there are things that must be excluded from this universal statement."

[@Saratogan]

@@noncalvinistbydecree1672 , “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” There are people that must be excluded from this universal negative? Do we want to keep going back and forth with verse tag? As to John 3:16, have you read down to the end of the chapter to John 3:36? God's love and His wrath at very least exist coincidentally. Jesus in John 17 prays to the Father and says that He does not pray for the world. However He says I pray for them that You have given Me. Why does He not pray for the world? Is He at odds with what He said to Nicodemus? There is much to ponder.

[@noncalvinistbydecree1672]

@@Saratogan Absolutely there are people who are supposed to be excluded. If there is no righteous person, then I guess no one is a Christian? Was Christ righteous? Was Abraham righteous? Paul seems to think so since he calls Abraham righteous in the very next chapter. So how can Paul then say no one is righteous? I guess we have to ponder that if we accept this interpretation. We would also have to ignore the dozens of verses in the OT that mention people seeking God, and God wanting people to seek him. I guess even now as Christians we don't do good, it's impossible to do anything good since I guess this statement is universal. John 3:16-3:36 never mentions Jesus not dying for the world or only dying for an elect group, so even accepting Jesus dying for everyone, that doesn't create any issues for a non-Calvinist. Jesus can die for everyone, and that atonement is received by faith. So if someone does not have faith, their sins are not atoned for, even though Jesus died for them. John 17 is unrelated entirely. Jesus isn't even praying for all Christians in John 17, so there'd be no reason to expect him to pray for the world. In the context, it's clear he's praying for the disciples who he is leaving behind. There's no way around that. Verse 12 especially makes that clear since he refers to Judas, and states he was the only one lost of the disciples. And even verse 11 states they are in the world, so this cannot include past or future disciples, but only the ones there are in the world at that time. Calvinist misunderstand John 17 very often.

[@Saratogan]

@@noncalvinistbydecree1672 Actually He is praying for all Christian in John 17. "“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word..." Is that not you and me? We are they who have believed through the word of the apostles generation after generation passed own to us through the canon of scripture. You are the first Arminian that I have interacted with who has not understood John 17 as the Lord's high priestly prayer for His whole church. I grew up in a mixed congregation of Arminians and Calvinists who got along just fine and I got my share of Arminian teaching. 😀

[@noncalvinistbydecree1672]

@Saratogan That was my bad. I was referring to the first half of the prayer where he's praying for the disciples, cause that's a common proof text that is usually focused on in John 17. But John 17 and John 3 are completely different contexts. Just because Jesus doesn't pray for the world in John 17 doesn't mean he didn't die for the world as John 3 says. He only intercedes for those with faith, but still dies for everyone.

[@Pnice971]

Steve- This text says it all ”But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.“ ‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭ESV‬‬ Arminianism is false doctrine and heresy. You have proven yourself over and over to be what Jesus calls “a bad tree” which can only produce “bad fruit”

[@austinbryant5787]

The text does say that bro. Still not a calvanist text bro

[@austinbryant5787]

And it's not a heresy bro. Calling everything you don't agree with a heresy is not the proper use of that word

[@JohnMackeyIII]

It is not the burden of anyone that hold to Gods will being accomplished by His power and it is not hindered or stayed by anything outside of Himself! There is no possible way for any finite creature to perform any action autonomously and there is no thing that God creates that exists autonomous outside of His control or sustaining.. if there is no autonomy you have a freedom that is dependent which means freedom has limitation. If you hold to a view other than that you are being foolish, if your perspective is based on a foundation with a differing opinion you are essentially stupid!😂

[@sheilasmith7779]

JohnMackeyIII: Your second paragraph is false, because your reasoning is not based on the evidence of scripture. The inquiry must begin with WHAT did God create? This is essential in order to know the creator (the designer) and His creation (the designed) Adam and Eve were designed by the designer. No created thing in the entirety of time, has ever exceeded its design characteristics.....whether designed by God or designed by man. No thing has ever been created or designed without limits. What can and can not a designed thing DO? An chair can not fly. A human can not flap his/her arms and fly. So reading Genesis 3, we see what God created. Adam and Eve were commanded NOT to eat from one tree. There would be NO reason for this command, if they were unable to choose to eat from that tree. If designed unable to eat from the tree, they could not have done so, and therefore God would not have needed to command them, to not eat from the tree. Simple logic, John. The evidence of God, and of what God created, is in Genesis 3. God, sovereignly created, what God wanted, every ability and characteristic, of everything God created, is what God wanted. The freedom to choose between options is a design feature of humans: Free will. The freedom and ability of humans to desire a variety of things, is a human design feature. THESE 2 characteristics have never changed from the time of Adam and Eve to the present day. Cain and Abel were faced with choice, to please God or to please self. Will and Desire are human design characteristics. Follow the evidence of scripture, John Mackey.

[@sheilasmith7779]

John Mackey: I can take the action (will) of flapping my arms, to fulfill my desire to fly. In this case my will is limited because the ability to fly is outside my capability. I do NOT have the design capability to fly, and therefore my will to fly and desire to fly, can not be satisfied.......until I create a designed thing with ability to fly, called an airplane. Yet my body created by God will never fly. The only thing in the nature of humans that changed after the "fall," was human physical death. That's it. We are Adam and Eve.

[@warnerchandler9826]

@OP JohnMackeyIII Without scripture, you have stated a man's philosophy. How does your philosophy-- God's will happens with nothing and no one able to hinder or stay it-- hold up to Scripture? Psalm 78: 40-41 "How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert! Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel."

[@joeadrian2860]

I am sorry, but Steve cannot offer any real rebuttable. I will not listen to his broadcast now that I know his Arminian position on this issue. He has absolutely nothing to offer because his view on God is far too small. I am listening to this vid to the end because I completely respect White's position of integrity and honor to the Word of God. That is not to say Steve does not do his best to honor God's Word either. We operate within the knowledge and wisdom and understanding that God grants to one another. No man gets everything correct but I do believe that keeping a high view of God in all things and in all parameters of human existence - seeing God over it all is paramount to seeing him correctly. I say that with all humility. JI Packer states that the reformed/calvinistic view of God in this way IS the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it offers Hope in a life sold in sin - a way of redemption when I have no strength to grab the "life preserver" thrown to me. Arminianism is a failed system of human teaching added to the pure truth found in the Gospel. When I was dead, God saved me.

[@buzzbbird]

White adds to scripture to pretend his point is Biblical. "They are not all decendents of Israel, who ***call themselves*** Israel" "Call themselves" is not i the scriptures, it is not a translational error, either. It is ADDITION to the actual Word of God to bully ignorant people into submitting to his LIES!!! The Greek, if White would be an honest man (Calvinists cannot BE honest, as heresy cannot be supported with honesty) he would give a truthful reading from the Hreek in that passage, and he would have to admit that he adds those extra-biblical words. Honesty requires truth. The objection that Paul denounces is the accusation that their sin is God's will. To restate it in modern English, If all we do is God's will, how can he consider us guilty. Well, when Paul says that they are sinning for backtalking God and uses the Potter and Clay analogy, we must go and find jusgement and potter and clay in the scriptures. Remember, the scriptures, in the context of Paul's letters means our Old Testament. Jeremiah is directly on point. Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. So WHY is it wrong to balktalk God on his judgements? Because his judgements are according to what they deserve, so to speak. We have God declaring judgement, for destruction or blessings on a NATION (in this case) and if the nation repents, God will remake it according to its new national position as holy or unrighteous. The reason they cannot complain if they are punished (the blessed never complain of being blessed, thus this is speaking only to those who are working evil and living unrighteously!), it is because they are doing evil. This is because they did not repent of evil, or they repented of righteousness and turned to evil. White shows himself to be a person that has zero grasp on this concept. Ezekiel, twice, explains this on a personal level and shows the same complaint made by the Jews and the Jews make in Romans 9! Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Eze 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. Eze 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. Eze 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

[@Pnice971]

Buzz- soooooo much nonsense 😅 - it’s an amazing thing to listen to u heretics do summersaults with the plain text of Scripture. When u first read Romans 9 u know what Paul meant but since u r spiritually blind and deaf u cannot accept the teaching of Jesus and His apostles. So u run off to find false teachers that tickle your ears. Please stop twisting the Holy Scriptures - your judgement will be just and fair as it appears God is hardening your heart just like Pharoah. Repent and believe the Gospel or you will surely die in your sins.

[@dougseely1174]

What I see is that most people don't want to give up their soverieghty to God

[@michaelmichael-ci8hi]

cuz they gots to be in control ..... cuz 'ma free will ' ............

[@jesuschristsaves9067]

What I see is people regurgitating the same Calvinistic nonsense. A Non existent doctrine for 1,500 years of the church should tell you of the validity (or lack thereof) of the doctrine of Calvinism.

[@titusbec2462]

Not true. Strawman-ing isn't an argument.

[@titusbec2462]

​@@michaelmichael-ci8hi No. It's because calvinism makes God into a schizophrenic, angry, bloodthirsty god

[@michaelmichael-ci8hi]

@@titusbec2462 no .... scripture tells us who God is and what He has done .... by Gods own words ..... and you are bothered by that cuz you are not in control ..... and you want to think He put a SKIZOPHRENIC, ANGRY, and BLOODTHIRSTY EVIL MANKIND with a free will over it cuz that better suits you ....... when God told Samuel to tell Saul to eliminate the Amelikites ..... what was that .... 1 Samuel 15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Yahweh sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; so now, [a]obey the voice of the words of Yahweh. 2 Thus says Yahweh of hosts, ‘I will [b]punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, infant and nursing baby, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

[@dougseely1174]

Wow! The fact that more people are coming to Calinism . Just like those who have adoped the new testiment

[@kimmykimko]

Just as we should! Since the old os done away with. Grow up!

[@dougseely1174]

The reason for thes debates is for the edictaion of tbe elect

[@dougseely1174]

A career teacher of the gospel wouid know what the early gospel apologist knew . He is delusional. Only God will know

[@warnerchandler9826]

If only God will know, how would early church fathers have known? Or anyone else besides God? You are illogical.