Calvinism VS Determinism: Is There A Difference? | Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101

Dr. Leighton Flowers discusses whether there's a difference between Calvinism and Determinism.
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#LeightonFlowers #Calvinism #Determinism

[@pazeluz4476]

For the past 40 years I have been a defender of Calvinism. I attended a Presbyterian seminary in Brazil, and lived surrounded by calvinist my entire Christian life. I had a problem. I could never harmonize the word “loving” with my theology if I had to think logically. Thank you for what you do. Sometimes I can’t hold my silent tears of joy when I think of how Just, Holy, Good and Living my God is. It’s been a very long time. John 3:16

[@Tyler-er6ob]

Interesting. So, did God show his loving kindness and preach the gospel as he drowned Egyptian soldiers in the Red Sea?

[@merrickc1876]

@@Tyler-er6obSo love and Judgement for sin are mutually exclusive?

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

Praise God, our loving heavenly Father! Welcome out of the 'fog'. It's wonderful you made it out with your faith intact..... Toooo many do not. They so often rightly reject the portrait of God which Calvin paints but tragically discard God with the frame in which Calvin places him.

[@tannerfrancisco8759]

​@@Tyler-er6ob He gave them every opportunity and told them exactly what He was going to do as judgment and punishment upon them if they didn't do what He said. Incurring the consequences of your evil acts does not make the one in authority at fault-- it's His universe; He makes the rules.

[@jjphank]

@@merrickc1876 with Calvinism, they are mutually exclusive

[@JohnQPublic11]

Dr. Flowers knocked it out of the park and into the next hemisphere with this one.

[@extremelifeandlarydean1894]

Thank you Dr. Flowers for your clear, concise, cohesive and effective biblical challenges to the teachings of Calvinism. We celebrate and applaud your efforts and determination. And pray that you continue to have the energy, wisdom and strength to keep pushing back on this ineffective teaching & unbiblical doctrine/system! Thank you!!! Hebrews 6:10, Galatians 4:16, 6:14

[@erixxu3260]

Wish God bless Dr. Flowers and bless all his services.😊🙏

[@pazeluz4476]

And yes, your ministry helped me tremendously to have a much better glimpse of the real character of our God. Thank you!

[@bilboswagginz2808]

Dr. Flowers, I do believe this is your best video ever! Very concise, and focused on the important points! I think this will be very helpful for my Calvinist friends who have latched onto the term “compatibilism” as their solution

[@paulmann9154]

I love the phrase: 'You don't understand calvinism'. Seems to me, and it is confirmed over and over again, even calvinists don't understand it. There are so many different pockets of calvinism that don't agree with each other. But it seems to me, the reason for all this is in the video above. Have you ever noticed, when a calvinist tries to explain one of his doctrines, how complicated it all is? The gospel of Jesus Christ is simple.

[@DamonNomad82]

That's what adherents to pretty much any false teaching, from Calvinism to Mormonism, will accuse you of if dare to disagree with their beliefs. They are so lost in their worldview that they automatically assume that anyone who disagrees with it must be doing so because they "don't understand" it.

[@reg7916]

The clear implication, no matter what these two men say, is calvinism leads to determinism and ultimately a stand for Calvin or following of him not Scripture🌻

[@reg7916]

@kgar5String many people can say right things on and off, but that doesn't mean they are always right... clearly the end of this systematic's implication whether through so called secondary means or such leads to EDD and "therfore" tarnish's the character of a Holy Infinite Creator so choose who you follow, but for me I'll choose Him and the harmony of His Word not the trappings of a trap imo.🌻

[@TeslaandAirbusesarewaytoofun]

Thanks for working so hard to end the damaging heretical fog of Calvinism hanging over so many people

[@jay1871]

Reformed anthropology is so bizarre. The group that is defined by “total inability” simultaneously believes that humans aren’t bad enough on our own volition but rather that God must decree our sin so as to have sin to judge.

[@dw6528]

DW: I think you are very insightful to see the anthropology as bizarre. However - it is also wisdom to understand - Calvinists have a high urgency to make Calvinism *APPEAR* acceptable to people. And this urgency drives them to *OBFUSCATE* aspects of the doctrine they calculate people will reject. The "T" in the Calvinists TULIP for example - is designed to function as a LIE OF OMISSION lie of omission - is communication designed to mislead - by omitting critical facts - which if not omitted would not mislead. The critical fact the Calvinist is omitting here is the fact that the doctrine stipulates - the state of nature - including every man's nature - at every nano-second in time - is 100% meticulously predestined. And at every nano-second in time - cannot possibly be other than what it was decreed to infallibly be. And man is granted NO SAY in the matter. The Calvinist uses the "T" in his TULIP to FALSELY attribute man's abilities/inabilities and from that his eternal destiny - to the state of his nature. When the TRUTH is - both the state of man's nature - and his eternal destiny are both *INFALLIBLY FIXED* before man is created. And man is granted NO CHOICE in the matter of anything. So the "T" in the Calvinists TULIP is designed to present a FALSE APPEARANCE

[@dw6528]

@SolaAndTotaScriptura DW: This fallacy is called a distinction without a difference. Whether one means differs from another means is irrelevant. What Calvin's god decreed was that Adam would perform SIN-X at TIME-T Also Calvin's god decreed the impulse within Adam's brain to perform SIN_X at TIME_T That decree did not grant existence to any ALTERNATIVE for Adam - nor did it grant any ALTERNATIVE impulse in Adam's brain. Adam was not granted a choice between [EAT] and [NOT EAT] simply because the option to [NOT EAT] did not exist for Adam to choose. Neither did Adam have a choice in the impulse that would infallibly come to pass within his brain.

[@dw6528]

@SolaAndTotaScriptura DW: Total Depravity is nothing more than a statement describing the possible state of man's nature at any instance in time. And in Calvinism - man does not determine the state of his nature at any instance in time. In Calvinism - a THEOS determined the state of man's nature - at every nano-second in time. The "T" in Calvinism's TULIP is designed to function as a LIE OF OMISSION. A lie of omission is communication designed to mislead - by OMITTING critical facts which if NOT omitted would not mislead. The critical fact which is omitted in this case - is the fact that the doctrine stipulates - the state of man's nature - at every nano-second in time is 100% meticulously predestined. And at every nano-second in time - cannot possibly be other than what it was decreed to infallibly be - and man is granted NO SAY in the matter. The Calvinist uses the "T" in the TULIP to falsely attribute man's abilities/inabilities - and from there - mans' eternal destiny - to the state of his nature. When the TRUTH is - both the state of man's nature - at every nano-second in time -as well as his eternal destiny are both *INFALLIBLY FIXED* before man is created - and man is granted NO SAY in the matter.

[@dw6528]

@SolaAndTotaScriptura DW: This again falls into the fallacy of distinction without a difference. The fact that Calvin's god condemnd all people because of what he *MADE* Adam do is simply his choice to hold man accountable for what he himself did. And I did not make a misrepresentation of Calvinism. The decree which established what man will be held responsible for - as the confession states - is NOT based on the creature or the condition thereof. It is based SOLELY WITHIN HIMSELF according to his good pleasure. Otherwise - you have the creature being the DETERMINER of what the creature will be held accountable for - which is anathema in Calvinism. Calvin's god is a divine potter who (at the foundation of the world) creates and designs the vast majority of the human population - specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for his good pleasure. They are not only *MADE* for eternal destruction - they are *MADE ACCOUNTABLE* for eternal destruction. John Calvin explains -quote by the eternal *GOOD PLEASURE* of god though the reason does not appear, they are *NOT FOUND* but *MADE* worthy of destruction. - (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of god pg 121)

[@dw6528]

@SolaAndTotaScriptura Sola: You conflate logical/transcendent categories (i.e. God's decree) vs imminent/creation (i.e. man's experience) categories. DW: What a silly argument!!! As I've already explained - in Calvinism man's experience - is 100% determined by an infallible decree. For example - Calvin's god creates a large percentage of believers for eternal torment in the lake of fire - for his good pleasure. These Calvinists are classified as CHAFF believers - whom Calvin's god deceives - giving them a FALSE SENSE of salvation. These Calvinists may go through their whole lives - experiencing a constant stream of *FALSE PERCEPTIONS* of salvation - and some day wake up in the lake of fire. John Calvin explains -quote But the Lord....instills into their minds such *A SENSE* ..as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption. (Institutes 3.2.11) -quote He illumines *ONLY FOR A TIME* to partake of it; then he....strikes them with even greater blindness (Institutes 3.24.8) So your experience simply entails what *PERCEPTIONS* Calvin's god decrees to infallibly come to pass within your brain. With the high probability that many of those will be *FALSE PERCEPTIONS*

[@MichaelHernandez-lc2wb]

Clear, so well spelled. You are getting sharper. I can only say thank you and God bless you richly.

[@SaintPatrick33]

Beautiful said. Thank you, Leighton 😊

[@arkrainflood]

being a calvinist is like imaging the sound of "one hand clapping".

[@johnknight3529]

(It can be done, by quickly slapping the palm with your fingers . . Not much of a clap, but then . . . ; )

[@relwod83]

According to Hippolytus of Rome's Refutation of all Heresies, the Pharisees also had a philosophy of determinism. It seems that the early Church did not.

[@JohnK557]

Yep, Calvinism is just pharisaic elitism.

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

Alexander the Great's Hellenization policy for conquered nations in the 4th century paved the way for Greek Philosophy to influence native populations. Probably the most well known Jew who epitomized the Jewish Platonist was Philo of Alexandrea. 25bc - about 50ad. (Alexandria had a bigger Jewish Population and even Jerusalem at that time!!) First century Christianity was indeed being influenced by Platonic ideas. You'll probably be surprised to learn that some of Paul's letters address it. 1 cor. 2:14 Natural man This is about Greek philosophy (natural theology) infiltrating the church there. In Greek philosophy creation itself is a divine emanation. Therefore all we see is all there is, and creation IS divine. To the "natural" man or, in Platonic thought, there is no wisdom gained via divine revelation. This is why it is foolishness to them. And that the Creator God would come and incarnate, be crucified and rise from the dead 3 days later? Ridiculous! they would say. Colossae had a wierd, Platonic mystery cult operating and the church there was losing people to it. Paul even alluded to Platos allegory of the cave in this letter. John's Gospel, ch. 1 He quotes Philo in the first verses, and up until he writes of John the Baptist he is refuting Platonism. But John's Gospel is late first century, and Platonic ideas have had more time to infiltrate Christian spheres by then. 1 John Most will agree an early form of Gnosticism, leading to libertine thought and behavior. In this belief you don't need a Savior. All matter, including our bodies, is corrupt. Only our Spirit's are pure, and nothing done in the body can corrupt it. Therefore you don't need Jesus You only need God (Greek Monad, the Highest God/Mind/Being- the ONE) to tap you with enlightenment (think Calvinism) to this fact, that you are already pure, that there is no such thing as sin, so drink up, PARTY ON! Fornicate and imbibe!! Anything goes. No Saviour needed. Platonism was second only to the problem Judaization as a major problem in the first century in my opinion. Paul and the Apostles fought to stave off the infiltration of these Greek philosophical ideas in the churches. Unfortunately, in later centuries the church actually embraced some of them. For example, Augustin thought the bible was incomprehensible until he read it in light of Platonism. Hence, now we have the "Classical (Platonistic) View" of God. You probably already believe things about Him that came from Greek Philosophy and aren't even aware of them. It's a fascinating study. I highly recommend anyone to look into it. Take care

[@JohnK557]

@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi Well said! This is very accurate in my opinion and from what I have studied. All the more reason Christian’s need to follow Christ and stay away from man made systems which is idolatry.

[@High-rise_man]

Very interesting stuff. Where do you suggest to start this study. Could you provide some sources? ​@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi

[@davidswiger3324]

The Pharisees also believed in OSAS, like the Calvinists and Reformed Baptists. The Jewish religious leaders were no doubt influenced by the mystery schools and merged those ideas with their reading of the Scriptures long before Gnosticism or Kabbalah became words to describe their beliefs. There is nothing new under the sun. Before the time of the Pharisees, and Herod's temple, the mystery schools existed. We know it as Gnosticism today, but it has been called by many names over the centuries. In the Old Testament, God calls it the Baal religion. In India, it's called Hinduism. Buddhism comes from Hinduism. There are many, many variations of the lie that originated from the garden of Eden, but this wicked religion at it's core teaches ancestor worship, fate, reincarnation, and transcendence: ”Ye shall not surely die...”, ”your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” So, as I see it, there is only two choices mankind can make: God's way or the Devil's way, as Jesus clearly states in Matthew 7... 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Jesus didn't say there were many paths to God (as inter-religious ecumenists teach, like the Vatican), but clearly says there is only one path to God. There aren't many different religions to choose from besides Christianity, as many believe. Anything other than the gospel of Jesus Christ is the same lie the serpent used with which to beguile Eve, repackaged using different names and cultural flavors. Satan's lies need to be thrown out of the church, or God will destroy those defiling his church with Satan's lies ( 1 Corinthians 3:17 ). God is not responsible for our choices; we are. God did not create us with a nature to sin (Original Sin), a Gnostic idea which is blasphemous. Everyone is born neutral, but chooses to sin. Galatians 6: 7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Romans 2: 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[@biblicaltheologyexegesisan9024]

Love your comments and explanations

[@primeobjective5469]

16:22 -- "I'm for logical coherence, but we have to also submit that to where we are just up against our own ability to always understand something." In other words, when you run into their contradictions, SUBMIT to their theology and do not question it, you're just too stupid.

[@peterfox7663]

It's simply question begging, assuming that Calvinism is correct

[@laurentbillaud3316]

Excellent, thank you from France !

[@J-ky8qg]

Great video Brother Leighton.

[@arielson90]

Thank you Dr. Flowers. God Bless You.

[@marteld2108]

Calvinism adopted the theory of Fatalism from the Stoics.

[@scienceandbibleresearch]

Calvinism isn’t the same as Fatalism.

[@awesomefacepalm]

​@@scienceandbibleresearchsure! But they do overlap a lot

[@Tyler-er6ob]

I just find it funny that Christians act like the unbelievers when they try to tie the religion to other philosphies and cults. It's intellectually weak to hear how many different origins Calvinism or Christianity. So tell me, why is it stoics and not gnostics or Augustine and what-not?

[@VanVoltZ]

@@scienceandbibleresearch they both walk down the same road eventually.

[@erixxu3260]

Thank you tell this message.

[@bridgetgolubinski]

1:48 LOL. Great video as always, thank you!

[@steveobrien3673]

Calvinist sophistry is fascinating

[@steveobrien3673]

@@kgar5String it is I wonder why they screw it up so much much!?

[@tobyhaas4554]

Thank you, Dr. Flowers, for speaking truth!

[@AlexanderosD]

Thanks Leighton! Always love to see ya rocking that jacket! 😊 Simply present Calvinism with consistent Calvinism and it runs an -error- code on itself. Calvinism IS determinism, and if a Calvinist doesn't understand and believe that, then they are a Calvinist-lite and not actually ascribed to Calvinism. I have too much respect for my Lord's character, to ascribe MY culpability for my own sin onto Him.

[@scottibreiding]

guy in the long sleeves: “it also assumes that there has to be like a logical coherency to validate whether something is true…” same person minutes later: “you don’t understand calvinism”

[@bridgetgolubinski]

8:43 Thank you for addressing this!

[@colmortimer1066]

The main reason I reject Calvinism is really my own journey. I worked hard to improve my faith. I knew God was real and I was Christian and believed in Christian morality, but it was years of me wrestling with the bible, church, and Prayer to actually put my faith in God, and trust Him. There were many times I could have chosen the easy way out, and early on I did. I rejected the bible as corrupted, I resisted church, all while trying to be morally as Christian as a human can be. Then I started choosing to trust in God's guidance, and listen to what He wanted and not what I wanted. I chose to read the bible and wrestle with it, I chose and still choose to listen to any good minded Christians, even some Calvinists, to better understand scripture. I chose to ignore my doubts and disagreements, to listen for the truth, and find what we agree on. I could not have done it without prayer, and trusting in the Lords guidance, but it was wholly my decision to turn to Christ for help in understanding, and listening to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and not just keep going it all alone and hoping I figured it out right. None of my moral views changed much during the 20 or so years of being Christian, without choosing to put my faith in God's guidance. My born again moment really came from me making that choice to put faith in God, learn the bible and listen to those in Churches, or commentators that I often did not agree with parts of their teaching but needed to hear the good parts that gave me a better understanding of faith, and scripture, and now I can often use scripture to show where and why I disagree, and not just my own thoughts, and what I desire to be true. But at no point do I think this was God's plan all along, I think he hoped I would choose Him, but I had to do the work first to trust in God, when I could have easily kept going alone, and once I made that choice, everything started coming around, and making sense, it was not easy, still is not, but that's the test God gave me to keep humble and faithful that it will get easier by trusting Him.

[@erixxu3260]

I like this video, short and clear, point out Calvinism Determinism theory is wrong. 😊👍🌷

[@readyplayer1900]

Calvinism and Determinism: A Slobbering Love Affair.

[@readyplayer1900]

Who are you, O Man, to talk back to God's eternal decree, including my comment? For shame...

[@randyburrill2340]

The determinist must appeal to mystery when scripturally painting themselves into a corner. I'd rather limit my appeals to mystery to the majesty and wonders of the master painter Himself.

[@tannerfrancisco8759]

If you have to appeal to mystery to explain why your doctrine contradicts the Bible and why your "god" has different attributes than the god of the Bible then you are a false teacher and an idolater. As soon as they said that Jesus was a calvinist--that's blasphemy. Their allegiance and faith is to their doctrines of demons--not the Lord Jesus Christ.

[@JohnK557]

Yep!

[@losnfjslefn8857]

Agreed.

[@losnfjslefn8857]

@@kgar5String Jesus said: John 6:44 KJVS No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 🔼 Some people tend to hyper focus on this one verse (while ignoring the rest of what John 6 says), and read it as if the word "can" isn't there. In short, the *result* of the Father drawing an individual, is that that individual *CAN* come. And if you *keep reading* to John 12:32, Jesus says plainly that when He is lifted up, He will draw *ALL* men. Also, Jesus did say that of those the Father has given Him, He will lose none. That however, seems to be referring to His disciples and their physical lives, specifically. Why? Because in John 18, this happens: John 18:7-9 KJVS Then asked he them again, *Whom seek ye* ? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. [8] Jesus answered, *I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these* (the disciples) *go their way* : [9] THAT THE SAYING MIGHT BE FULFILLED, which he spake, *Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none* . 🔼 The saying "of those the Father has given Me, I have lost none." is fulfilled at this time. Jesus also said this in John 17, that He lost none *but the son of perdition* , (aka Judas), because shortly after His prayer, Judas would end up killing himself. While Jesus was with the disciples on the earth, none of them would die, except for Judas. Therefore, He lost none, but the one (John 17:12).

[@st.christopher1155]

Leighton, So without using the apostle Paul’s actual words, you are basically saying that Calvinism/Determinism is a doctrine of demons. I don’t know how else to interpret what you are saying. I take that same position and also agree with the apostle Paul 100%. ✝️🍞🍷

[@jamesbarksdale978]

I know most Calvinists are sincere people who believe God is loving and compassionate. But taken to it's logical conclusion that's not the God they end up with. And, that's why Calvinism is not good for the Church.

[@scienceandbibleresearch]

Your “logical conclusion” is based on a useless oversimplification of double predestination, and therefore, a false conclusion.

[@JohnK557]

@@scienceandbibleresearch No, “logical conclusions” are based on the Logos and “oversimplification” is just the opposite of confusion therefore logical conclusions are always correct conclusions otherwise they would cease being logical…..

[@arielson90]

Please interview Steve Gregg.

[@itlupe]

I had an interesting question thrown at me by a Calvie: Does Mark 1:5 mean all of Judea and Jerusalem? I believe the Bible is true so I would say yes. I am not, however, scholarly as you et al, so I need help here. Thank you for your time.

[@annakimborahpa]

If: A. "God is love" (1 John 4:16, NASB) - and - B. "...desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4, NASB) - then - C. Calvinism?

[@losnfjslefn8857]

Calvinists will just say that all doesn't really mean all in 1 Timothy 2:4.

[@sampowellmusic]

Yeah they have ways of turning clear statements of scripture around, same as jehovahs witnesses.

[@annakimborahpa]

Even 2 Peter 3:9 (NASB)? The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance.

[@jjphank]

Calvinism is the same as jihad God says to destroy what he so meticulously made, 3300 Billion computer code lines in everybody’s DNA sequence and god’s OK with the destruction of His creation! No, that doesn’t make sense

[@annakimborahpa]

Well, phank you for that, J.J.

[@BM5K007]

This was a major component that led me out of Calvinism, the God of Calvinism is NOT the God of the Bible...the Calvinistic interpretation is man made and is not inline with the true nature and character of the God of the bible.

[@BM5K007]

@@kgar5String I apologize if what I said offends, but being a Calvinist for 4 years and then realizing it could not be supported in Scripture was so freeing, losing all that baggage was a God send, as Paul stated, “I determined to know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and Him crucified”, anything else is unnecessary fluff

[@andrewtsousis3130]

@@kgar5Stringhave you ever thought that you might be wrong? That your concept of Gods Character might be wrong? That your effort to heighten Gods Sovereignty might actually put Him in a box and declare that He is less Sovereign?

[@sampowellmusic]

Thank you for your valuable and prolific contributions to the conversation of Calvinism vs. provisionism over the years. I have an idea for you for a future video. I had just caught a radio show of RC Sproul and I thought it was very biblical and insightful, dealing with the woman at the well and worshipping God in spirit and in truth. So it prompted me to think: how is it that a pastor and teacher of that caliber, and I include in the same breath MacArthur, piper, and so many others, how do these otherwise brilliant and knowledgeable men of scripture fall prey to the false teaching of Calvinism? I would love to hear your take on that…if you or perhaps one of your assistants even reads this comment.

[@tannerfrancisco8759]

It's because they aren't Christians. They cannot spiritually discern what must be spiritually discerned because they don't have the Holy Spirit. They are intellectually carnally minded. Their idols are vain philosophies and their own knowledge of their doctrines of demons --not the scriptures. John Piper's just an idiot. There must be a demon empowering his teaching for so many people to fall under its spell and be bewitched by it. Macarthur claims to have never not been in Christ and said that his life's mission was to hold his doctrines against the Bible and see if the Bible could stand up to them. RC Sproul's personal testimony is one of renouncing his faith in Christ and instead choosing Calvinism instead of genuine Christianity. And in his last appearance before his death, you can watch him harden his heart one last time and see that recognition on his face that he has zero assurance and he is going to hell and he still chooses to resist the Holy Spirit and be turned over to destruction. He is surely in hell according to his own words. They literally lied about what his last words were on his deathbed. He was a narcissist and an egomaniac. There was no light or love of Christ in his life and all he had was good training and multiple people writing for him just like MacArthur. Macarthur hasn't written a book in 40 years. "The Gospel According to Jesus" is rebranded Mormon theology. Grace Community Church and the Masters University are a lordship salvation cult more akin to Scientology than a Christian church or a seminary. They literally make people do counseling sessions in which they have to confess their sin and if they struggle with that sin three times they're told they aren't saved and they're going to hell and they kick you out. They demand you give them more money and serve more to prove that you are saved. To attend that college, they make you sign a waiver absolving them of liability if you commit suicide because so many people killed themselves from their religious abuse. It's a cult. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. Demons are real. Principalities are real. There's other spiritual powers at work that manipulate humanity in order to derail God's plans and impede our work for the kingdom of God. Calvinism is demonic. Augustine was demonized. Calvin was demonized. Neither of them was actually saved, but they both were riddled with demons. The biggest issue hindering the body of Christ today is that people don't know how to listen to the Holy Spirit. They chose to pursue religion as an intellectual endeavor rather than hearing the shepherd's voice and actually utilizing the power of the Holy Spirit which is indwelling in them. False teachers have told them forever to not listen to the Holy Spirit and instead listen to what they're teaching you which contradicts the Bible. Have fellowship with the Holy Spirit. And learn to use his gifts as you walk in the spirit and it is like going through life having superpowers compared to the carnal Christian. Once you learn to trust the Holy spirit for discernment and you start acting in faith on what God is instructing you to do daily, then you're going to have the Holy Spirit discerning the spirit of the people you're interacting with all the time and that's when you're going to start seeing religious pride demons everywhere. These are the counterfeit holy spirits that keep fake Christians in the captivity of false religion or if they are technically a genuine Christian. It keeps them from actually growing spiritually and instead they grow more religiously/carnally disciplined which completely hinders the genuine fruit and work of the Holy Spirit and their work for the kingdom of Heaven. That's not Faith. That's not Grace. That is trusting in your false doctrines and in your own works to prove you are saved and in doing so, you actually renounce Christ and trust in something else which is aposty.

[@pazeluz4476]

I made a comment about what happened to me and how the Holy Spirit brought the first love back into my life with my loving father. I had no intention to offend anyone. I love you, regardless if you are a Calvinist or not. God bless you

[@Etruth907]

One thing I have noticed in conversations with Calvinists is that they often neglect the original audience of Scripture and read themselves into the text.

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

Also, things like words and sentences are fluid, meaning whatever they need them to mean😅

[@atyt11]

Thank you Leighton for all you do. The mysterious sovereign calvinism is nowhere to be found in scripture. It must be read into the passage. It was amazing to here calvinist converse. Missing their own views, oblivious to their own determinism.

[@rue883]

Except in the most benign and general way, I don’t accept any delineations within God’s church. Teachings are either biblical or not.

[@robertgoodrich9302]

I enjoy your channel your points are well thought out and thoughtfully presented. There is one point that I’ve never heard presented before though either by you or others on either side (or any side) of the aisle is the omniscience of God. Maybe you have and I haven’t seen it. However if God is all knowing, and He is, how does that affect this whole Calvanism, not Calvinism argument? What is my point? If God knows everything about everything that ever was or ever will be, and he knows us from before death until the moment we die, and I believe he knows each off us (human beings) personally, then doesn’t he know what decisions we make, will make because of his complete knowledge of all things. Since He knows what decisions we are going to make of our own Free Will before the creation of time isn’t that somehow connected to His having chosen us because before time He knew we were going to choose Him. I really don’t know for but this is how look at it. Thanks for listening (reading 😊).

[@davidswiger3324]

I don't believe God knows everything. He tests/tries/proves us to know if we'll obey him. God learns if we'll obey him. Examples: Genesis 22: 12 - And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Deuteronomy 13: 3 - Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Psalms 17: 3 - Thou hast proved mine heart; thou hast visited me in the night; thou hast tried me, and shalt find nothing; I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress. Proverbs 17: 3 - The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts. Matthew 3: 11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 1 Corinthians 3: 13 - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 1 Peter 1: 7 - That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

[@ironleatherwood]

Calvinism is all hyper.

[@saraircrew8517]

I simple can not understand why these types of calvinist use so many words to try and refute what they absolutely hold to be true? Why cant they just simply say yes, these things are true but we just don't understand in our limited capabilities how.

[@saraircrew8517]

@@kgar5String question begging!

[@GhostBearCommander]

Honestly, the entire issue of Calvinism could be wiped clean, wholesale, if just one thing was clearly realized: Sovereignty DOES NOT equal Determinism.

[@GhostBearCommander]

@@kgar5String “In order for God to have all power, everything has to go through Him or something else has some power that God has no control over.” Why? Is your view of God so lacking in Sovereignty that He is unable to use circumstances that He didn’t cause for His own design? Also, the Bible makes it clear that some things are not determined by God, such as Jeremiah 19:5 or 1 John 2:16-17.

[@johnknight3529]

@@kgar5String - "In order for God to have all power, everything that happens has to go through him or something else has some power that God does not have any control over." I don't think that's what all powerful means. As a Creator God He has the ability, it seems obvious to me, to control any form of material/energy on any scale He wishes to control it. From making galaxies to operating at infinitesimal scales to generate living things. And as such a God, nothing else in existence could possibly challenge Him in any meaningful way. He could literally vaporize someone like Satan in an instant, let alone something like us pipsqueak humans. That's the kind of "all powerful" I think He is. Not in any prohibitive sense which prevents Him from granting vastly more limited/circumstantial power to whatever entity He wishes to grant it.

[@phieble]

​@@johnknight3529 All power to create and then do what you want with your creation to sustain it, excepting dominantly influence the wills of your creatures, is not all-powerful, but super-powerful. All power includes power over the future turning out like you want it to. God could not be all powerful if there are things he truly wants to happen and could make happen but we can resist his desires so much that what God wants to happen ultimately doesn't or can't and what we want prevails. God defines his sovereignty (omnipotence + omniscience) himself in Isaiah 46:9-10 among other pasages, so we don't have to define it ourselves. 9) Remember the things I have done in the past. For I alone am God! I am God, and there is none like me. 10) Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish. Also, God delaying to destroy Satan when he has the power to do it at any time is a matter of his predetermined plan for the future which we read in Revelation, all of which events will happen by God's power over the wills of all participants either directly or indirectly.

[@GhostBearCommander]

@SolaAndTotaScriptura “Works all things” is not the same as “decrees/pre-ordains all things.” It’s easy to “work” something out, without necessarily causing their circumstances. Every single non-Calvinist believes God “Works out all things.” That’s not a proof text for determinism. Plus, if God caused all things, He’d be the cause of all evil and temptation. Here’s are some proof texts that disprove determinism: Jeremiah 19:5 and 1 John 2:16 and James 1:13.

[@GhostBearCommander]

@SolaAndTotaScriptura Why would God need to cause all things in order to control all things? I’ll get back to the verses in a bit.

[@coreykeplinger3391]

I have serious doubts about calling Calvinists brothers in Christ. If God requires you to say Yes or No to the Gospel to be saved, then the Calvinist is silent. I don't know where you find the energy to deal with them.

[@steves7141]

Whether it be Calvinist, Arminian, Molinist, Provisionist, Orthodox etc., all fall short of revealing where the sovereignty of God and the will of man meets. The Calvinist says that Jesus died for the "elect", and the provisionist says its an "open door", but all must deal with the fact that outcomes are foreknown by God. The idea that someone may be elect is inherently no different than the idea that someone will reject the Gospel. It is simply a matter of perspective. From God's pov He already knows the outcome, so even the provisionist must deal with the idea that an individual is predestined to reject God. Perhaps it is best to leave divine mysteries as divine mysteries, and instead focus on living a surrendered life

[@mikelyons2831]

You are using an Augustinian-Calvinism definition of Predestination

[@user-dw1jp7tp6i]

Great comment. Is God omniscient? Then he knows who will go where. That's the freewill problem.

[@kevinjypiter6445]

That’s a faulty view. Thsts like saying us in the 21st century view the actions of people during ww2 as predetermined. It was their own actions which lead to the events which transpired. We can’t possibly know how God views things from outside time, and saying He operates like He has a Time Machine puts Him in a box. So we can’t primly understand things from His perspective. But we DO understand things from ours-which is we have a choice to follow Him or not

[@user-dw1jp7tp6i]

@@kevinjypiter6445 Ok, but then we have what God has told us about his view, like Isaiah 45 where he said Cyrus didn't acknowledge him and that prove his omniscience and omnipotence.

[@losnfjslefn8857]

"...all fall short of revealing where the sovereignty of God and the will of man meets." Things like this are only complicated if you hold to the Calvinistic definition of the words "sovereign" or "predestination".

[@thanevakarian9762]

Gotta love the different reactions Calvinists give when you point out a flaw or ask the wrong question to them. The most interesting ones are when they can’t see that they’re adding things to scripture or inventing ideas that aren’t there just so they can prove one of their points. God has to have multiple wills to explain all the verses about him not wanting anyone to be condemned, or the verses about humans choosing him or not, or the verses about him being disappointed with certain outcomes. The obvious answer is that we do have a free will to chose God or not, but to them that’s completely off the table because their starting point is we don’t. “Ohhhhh you silly non reformed pleb obviously you don’t know the multiple tiers of Gods will, ohhhh you obviously don’t see these examples of God being disappointed or surprised or changing his mind are just anthropomorphic allegory’s, ohhhh you silly pleb all doesn’t mean all, oh you silly pleb it’s just a mystery why God only forcibly regenerates the elect to believe but not stop sinning!” It’s especially interesting when those same people will say “if you plainly read scripture you’ll be a Calvinist!”

[@marcellealosta5748]

Leighton , pls comment on a video from “Theocast”. They are very solid men in Christ and claim to be reformed/Calvinists. Particularly in one of their videos , they talk about how not all reformed are Calvinists and vice versa. Which is confusing….

[@buzzbbird]

To determine is to choose I determined to order a pizza. If I did not choose it, man won't I be surpirsed that a pizza shows up. I could not say I ordained it and simultaneously say I did not, I reject the concept that I determined it.

[@fernandosviewpoint]

If God made man to be predetermined to only one option, then man is made no higher than beasts.

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

That would be true in Calvinism. We're all fated to be Blessed or Damned. And there's not a thing either one can do to change it. That's why if I thought Calvinism were really true it would lead me to just do what I wanted. I'm going to be saved, (if chosen to be) and nothing can stop it. Likewise if fated to be Damned I might as well party like it's 1999. Calvinism is sooo dumb😅

[@r.rodriguez4991]

You can REALLY see how that guy on the left has come to model himself after Jeff Durbin. It's like how a lot of people in the NIFB become carbon copies of Steven Anderson.

[@davidswiger3324]

Cults abound when men follow men, and seek the approval of men.

[@PreciousMeddler]

"I'm for logical coherence, but we also have to submit that to where we are just up against our own ability to always understand something." Yes, like your understanding of the issue at hand.

[@iglesiadedios.8816]

Calvinists stop!!

[@busybody1474]

Love does not exist without free will.. call yourself whatever but you're not getting around that truth. Love must be given freely or it is not love. ❤

[@steventhompson8130]

Paul start out with the key term, "The Children of the Promise," whom are not like the children of the flesh (Romans 9:8); in that, the Children of the Promise are those who believe, which is the true Israel *(Romans 9:30-33).* All the teaching in between *"Romans 9:8"* and *"Romans 9:30-33,"* Paul shows briefly how God worked His plan of redemption (the Promise) through the faithfulness of Isaac, and then Jacob over Esau, whom God also prophesied concerning in His foreknowledge. The Potter and the Clay analogy is taken from *"Jeremiah 18:1-12,"* which reveals that God is righteous in forming the clay (the nation Israel and its people) depending on how the clay responds in His hands, and who is anyone to question that God is not righteous in His judgments? God was long-suffering with Israel, patiently urging them to repent *(Romans 2:4-9),* but most of them refused to believe, although God patiently urged them to repent. Nevertheless, God carried the Promise of Redemption through the faithful fathers of old, whom God made the promises to: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

[@steventhompson8130]

@@kgar5String The is only one Gospel. Gentiles are grafted into Israel by faith (Romans 11:19-22); and so, all Israel will be saved. Jews and Gentiles who believe are all together the Children of the Promise, which is by faith - one Shepherd and one flock.

[@jesuslovesyou2024]

Yes there are alternatives to Calvin. The Catholic Church for example which is really the interpretation by those who were contemporaneous with Jesus apostles.

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

"...determinism is philosophical...." From the jump, the guy on the right is already waffling.😮 Its called, "word salad" folks. Lbcf says God >>"Determines"

[@JohnK557]

“Reformed understanding of the scriptures” is an oxymoron.

[@JohnK557]

“Until you understand” Scripture and realize there is no reformed theology in it.

[@user-estrellaroja]

2 de calvino 3:9 El Señor no retarda su promesa, según algunos la tienen por tardanza, sino que es paciente para con nosotros, no queriendo que (𝘯̶𝘪̶𝘯̶𝘨̶𝘶̶𝘯̶𝘰̶)los calvinistas perezcan, sino que (𝘵̶𝘰̶𝘥̶𝘰̶𝘴̶)los calvinistas procedan al arrepentimiento.

[@sketchbook1]

AH, the old canard, "when Calvinism is RIGHTLY understood..." They ALWAYS PUNT TO MYSTERY OR TO THE MISUNDERSTANDING OF THEIR OPPONENTS! So many false presuppositions in that young man's view. He points to mankind's state of sin, but fails to realize the MAJOR DIFFERENCE in the INTERPRETATION of those verses which talk about sin. He points to a Jesus "actually purchasing a people" but fails to realize that those people are "...all who look to the Son and believe..." and that Jesus NEVER FAILS to save those who believe. Calvinism doesn't even realize its own faults-- and these gentlemen don't even give room in their thoughts for any other options for interpreting these and other verses.

[@DamonNomad82]

"When Calvinism is RIGHTLY understood" is on the same level as "When REAL Socialism is actually tried". The devotees of both systems will engage in the most ridiculous mental gymnastics to try to explain away the countless real world examples of Calvinism being rightly understood and socialism being actually tried and both systems having a 100% fail rate because both are built on foundations of quicksand...

[@JohnK557]

@@DamonNomad82 🎯

[@vincentkvincentkyolsonop9152]

I’ve never met a Calvinist that didn’t believe in mission work and evangelization.

[@andrewtsousis3130]

Determinism flies in the face of Scripture. It says that the 3 main things God requires,( even commands) from us we cannot do. Belief, Faith and Obedience. If determinism is true, and we have no free will choice, then these 3 requirements simply don’t exist. Determinism still says they do exist but are granted by God to the elect. This is literally an oxymoron.

[@GrahameGould]

No. Calvinism is theistic determinism. You could contrast it to atheistic determinism (or naturalistic/materialistic determinism) though.

[@theologygeekgal]

So crazy to hear these young people trying to justify the tenets of Calvinism, while making other ideas sound unreasonable.

[@JohnQPublic11]

A Calvinist helping you think with your Bible is the funniest oxymoronic thing I’ve ever heard!

[@contemplate-Matt.G]

Brother I know you saw my first video on Jacob and Esau but did you watch part 2?

[@contemplate-Matt.G]

Dr Flowers has my book but hasn't read it yet. I wish you would watch that video

[@DamonNomad82]

It's like a fox helping you guard your henhouse...

[@emilesturt3377]

Calvinism destroys any logical or coherent purpose for the three "C's" wherever they are presented in Scripture... *Choice (because you couldn't have done otherwise) *Conditionality (because free will doesn't exist) *Cooperation (because Reformed compatibilism only pays lip service to the actual genuine degree of freedom - birthed by love - which God - Who is love - placed within His universe.

[@emilesturt3377]

@@kgar5String You're in a Cult

[@emilesturt3377]

Scripture says we're "controlled" by the flesh and Scripture talks of (regarding the regenerate) the "control" of righteousness.... neither of these two powerful influences preclude a necessary degree of free will and cooperation.

[@DamonNomad82]

Not all Determinists are Calvinists, but all Calvinists are Determinists.

[@JonathanGrandt]

I think many Calvinists don’t know they’re determinists. I know a few.

[@patrickholt4140]

GODs word cannot contradict itself so somethings may not mean what we think it does.

[@johnknight3529]

"First of all, I'm for logical coherence but we also have to submit that to where we're up against our own ability to always understand something." Says who? It seems kinda obvious to me that God is well aware of our intellectual limitations, and has gone to great lengths to help us understand ourselves as well as understand Him, better than we could without that Book He caused to come into existence. I see no sign in it of Him telling us to give up on logical coherence, and "submit" to some human's imaginings, instead of continuing to study that Book, and continue to use the intellect we have been given to the best of our ability. Now, IF your concern is to convince people you know the mind of God, I suppose you could take a short cut, so to speak, and pretend that Him telling us He's far more intelligent than we are, somehow caused you to know for sure He wants us to "submit"(?) logical coherence. That way, you wouldn't need to be logically coherent to keep those you convinced with that pretention, thinking you know the mind of God even though you're not logically coherent when you try to explain things . . And your logical incoherence becomes a measure of your wisdom!! (In the land of the worshippers of whatever pops into their minds ; )

[@austinh681]

Since we DO know what truth is because we have Gods revelation aka the Bible, if you come to a conclusion that God is potentially the author of evil then YOU have missed something. It’s not a “mystery” it’s YOU being wrong with your understanding.

[@jw2442]

I am starting to be more and more convinced that Calvinism is...well...hate to say this...a false doctrine. Not saying that Calvinists do not belong in The Kingdom. If they believe that God's grace in Christ is the exclusive way of not spending eternity separated from Him, they belong in The Kingdom. But, man, their theology is...gee whizz...aberrant and...sorry to say this...abhorrent even.

[@robertdavis3285]

Bro. Leighton, do you want to end Calvinism ? Please give me the opportunity to correct your theology. Then, when you agree with me, you and I will debate White and Durbin over the "P" in TULIP. We will win the debate and Calvinism will be vanquished. I promise. Hope we can talk. Robert.

[@claudecharest7018]

why flowers is so determine ? Big pride?Oh yes

[@jeffreybeaupre4319]

You guys should check out Rogue Calvinist. He brought up a great point that Flower's whole "soteriology" is basically the interlocutor of Romans 9, systematized. I thought it was a brilliant way of putting it.

[@suzannedebusschere1607]

What does that even mean? I know it's vague, because my IQ is actually super high, and I can't be too dumb to understand. So can you maybe say that with normal words? I honestly have no idea what you mean.

[@jeffreybeaupre4319]

@@suzannedebusschere1607 It means leighton takes the objector in Romans 9 and makes that his whole theology

[@busybody1474]

​@@jeffreybeaupre4319Christianity is actually made to be very simple to understand, did you know that? Simple enough for a child to understand, we could choose to complicate God's simple message but that doesn't glorify God ❤

[@jeffreybeaupre4319]

@@busybody1474 Hebrews 5:13.

[@TrueLifeAdventures]

That's because Rogue, like other Calvinists are misinterpreting Romans 9.

[@vitaignis5594]

Rogue calvinist is already on the attack 😂

[@DamonNomad82]

That one is like the Black Knight in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail". No matter how many times he loses badly, he refuses to acknowledge he's beaten and keeps talking tough...

[@JohnK557]

Rogue Calvinist does not act in good faith. He has no answer for what he believes in and if you challenge him he will block you and delete all the comments where you prove him wrong.

[@Tim.Foster123]

Nobody is punished undeservedly. No one. Anyone with sin deserves hell, whether or not they have heard of Jesus Christ. No exception. To be ignorant of the "why" is no reason to deny the result. (You don't know why gravity works. You don't know why God doesn't offer salvation to demons. You don't know why God waited till 0AD to send Jesus. You don't know why God doesn't send Paul-like revelations to everyone so that everyone might be saved. You can't give rational explanations for any of those "why's". Yet you beliebebthem all to be true)

[@truthseeker5698]

The Plebes and Dweebs podcast being exposed by Leighton Flowers.

[@davidswiger3324]

Roman Catholicism: ”What we believe goes back to the apostle Peter and Jesus.” Roman Catholic Calvinism: ”What we believe goes back to the apostle Paul and Jesus.” Reality: both organization's doctrines go back to Gnosticism via Augustine and other "church fathers" that were influenced by pagan philosophy. Beware of man-made cults! They ALWAYS teach Gnosticism, which ideas go back to the lie in the garden of Eden. Genesis 3: 1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. It might not be obvious why I'm connecting Gnosticism to the serpent's lie, so let me state further that I have found all doctrines circulating among believers, which have been exposed as being false, to have their origins in some variation of the Baal religion - yes, Gnosticism is a variation of the religion of Baal. And this wicked religion at it's core teaches ancestor worship, fate, reincarnation, and transcendence: ”Ye shall not surely die...”, ”your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” What many in the church have done is they've adopted and modified pagan ideas, which they've picked up by way of interacting with pagan philosophy/religion in some way whether knowingly or unknowingly. Hinduism, another variation of the religion of the Baals/gods, is said to not be a religion, but a way of living/life. So, their philosophy IS their "religion". Many Christians separate pagan philosophy from their religious practices, but pagan belief systems do not do this; these are connected as their whole way of life. So believers need to be careful not to implant this world's ideas into The Bible when they read it, an error which has proven to be the basis for all false doctrines that have crept in to the church. Ancient Israel mixed this world's ideas with God's word with disastrous results. Many in the church are repeating their error. God does not want us to have fellowship with evil spirits via their doctrines or practices. God gave us this warning through the apostle Paul (a true church father, whom Calvinists claim Reformed Theology comes from) .... 1 Timothy 6: 20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. (The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea, which is the chiefest city of Phrygia Pacatiana.) A word to the wise is sufficient.

[@patrickholt4140]

I believe Calvinist get GOD knowing and GOD causing mixed up

[@patrickholt4140]

@@kgar5String causing and knowing aren’t the same thing If Calvinism is true then GOD is the bad guy Imagine CAUSING every evil Act that man does and judging men. If GOD caused Hitler to be Hitler and murder everyone he murdered isn’t GOD himself the real murderer? Jeremiah 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the valley of hinnom to offer up their sons and daughters to molech THOUGH I (GOD) DID NOT COMMAND THEM NOR DID IT ENTER MY MIND THAT THEY SHOULD DO THIS ABOMINATION TO CAUSE JUDAH TO SIN JAMES 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted I am tempted by GOD for GOD cannot be tempted by evil NOR DOES HE HIMSELF TEMPT ANYONE :14 but each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed

[@pontificusmaximus6716]

Dude on the left literally waves his arms non-stop, ala Matt Chandler and John Piper. Is this a prophetic "Sign of the sophist", or something more mundane (Freudian)? Either way, no amount of special pleading and special Calvinistic definitions can enable you to arm-wave away flat, irreconcilable contradictions. This is pure incoherence.

[@bridgetgolubinski]

12:42 Nah we know they're both bad

[@faithinhisblood]

These guys sound so lost and mislead...

[@beadoll8025]

Calvinism is dangerous theology and can lead to prideful behavior.

[@robertwheeler1158]

The difference here is that Dr. Flowers is essentially a rationalist -- he believes that everything must be logically coherent; whereas the three people in the video he was critiquing were essentially trying to be Biblicists -- just trying to make sense out of what the Bible says about divine sovereignty and human responsibility. What the Bible says is "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but he things revealed belong to us and our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law" (Dt. 29:29; NASB). It is true that Calvin himself perhaps went a little too far in emphasizing predestination, apparently holding to a kind of double predestination. And then the Protestant scholastics went too far in carrying on an arcane debate about the order of the decrees, as if finite mortal human beings can fathom the thought processes of the infinite mind of God. But the "5 points" came from the Synod of Dort, and the Canons of Dort are basically Biblical and balanced. Is the doctrine of the Trinity logicallly coherent? And then in accusing Calvinists of being "determinists" Dr. Flowers keeps falling back on making all Calvinists out to be Supralapsarians, which they are not. And I love the comment someone made before: "If I had a dollar for every time Leighton Flowers uses the word 'Calvinist' . . ."

[@JohnK557]

That’s not true. Confusion is not of God knowledge and wisdom is. Everything that God has revealed to mankind and wants us to know can be logically understood without confusion because He is the Logos. People have to seek Him though and not other men which is idolatry.

[@JohnK557]

Calvinism is simply a deterministic system that uses sophistry and double speak to confuse people into not seeing all the contradictions it creates. Calvinism is found nowhere in scripture but Calvinists read it into scripture everywhere. All forms of determinism are closed theist and believe that God in eternity past willed and predetermined EVERYTHING for His own glory and not one determinist can rationally or coherently articulate how that’s so within Gods revealed reality and word.

[@JohnK557]

Calvinism is simply a deterministic system that uses sophistry and double speak to confuse people into not seeing all the contradictions it creates.

[@JohnK557]

Calvinism is found nowhere in scripture but Calvinists read it into scripture everywhere. All forms of determinism are closed theist and believe that God in eternity past willed and predetermined EVERYTHING for His own glory and not one determinist can rationally or coherently articulate how that's so within Gods revealed reality and word.

[@losnfjslefn8857]

You may not be determinist yourself, but there are plenty of Calvinists that are, so there's no false accusations being made in that regard. "For the man who honestly and soberly reflects on these things, there can be no doubt that the will of God is the chief and principal *cause* of all things." (John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p. 177) "Therefore I conclude with Johnathan Edwards, 'God decrees all things, even all sins.'" (John Piper, Is God Less Glorious Because He Ordained That Evil Be?, Desiring God)

[@user-wy9ks6rh5j]

Calvinism = Another (no) gospel

[@simonvallee718]

How do you guys interpret 1 Samuel 2:25 ? "one person sins against another, God[a] may mediate for the offender; but if anyone sins against the Lord, who will intercede for them?” His sons, however, did not listen to their father’s rebuke, for it was the Lord’s will to put them to death." The sons didn't listen BECAUSE it was the Lord's will to put them to death. In other words. God didn't put them to death because they didn't listen, but they didn't listen BECAUSE God had already decided they would die...

[@busybody1474]

I interpret this way.. That's not in other words, those are just YOUR words, merely your interpretation of those words..and that's Old testament while we were still under the law, have you not heard about JESUS ??

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

The answer is one verse prior... But to get the whole picture, read from vs 1. (Sons of Belial)

[@phieble]

Isaiah 46:9-10 9) Remember the things I have done in the past. For I alone am God! I am God, and there is none like me. 10) Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish. Psalms 139:16 16) You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed. Ecclesiastes 6:10 10) Everything has already been decided. It was known long ago what each person would be. So there’s no use arguing with God about your destiny.

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

Anthropomorphisms

[@phieble]

@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi As in the attribution of nonhuman feelings and intentions to entities that are not human? I don't think so. These are clear statements that are backed up by numerous prophecies and acts we see God doing throughout Scripture. Anthropomorphism would be rightly ascribed to passages where we read that God "repented," "remembered," "marveled," or "tested to see something," which are all humanlike emotions and experiences that cannot precisely apply to God who has all knowledge, wisdom, power, authority, and access to all of his creation from the beginning to the end of history. There's nothing humanlike about "Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish." In fact, human beings can very hardly conceive of such a thing, let alone relate to it since we are warned against boastful planning over even the simplest of things like what we intend to do tomorrow. (James 4:13-16)

[@busybody1474]

So if you are mistaken about your salvation and God actually skipped you over and chose someone else, no point in arguing over it.. You can accept the Holy Gospel all day long but God won't accept you.. can't have it both ways

[@phieble]

@@busybody1474 If God chose to create me before he spoke the world into existence and deny me the grace necessary for repentance and faith in the Gospel that would need to be given to me during my lifetime, then my sin nature that I inherited from Adam according to Romans 5 would influence me to love sin over him all my life and consequently I would only choose to sin and would never desire to repent and embrace Jesus. In this case, I am stuck in a mode but I am still thinking, feeling, and choosing without God directly making me do it, therefore I'm not a robot or puppet and I'm fully guilty for my sin. Simultaneously, it's only because God sent the Holy Spirit to change my heart when I read or heard the Gospel of Jesus one day (faith comes by hearing the word) that I was able and willing to turn away from loving sin over God. Satan and my sin nature previously deceived me that sin is better and blinded me from being able to see Jesus as glorious and worthy of my life and affection, until God disabled Satan and showed me the light of his glory within the Gospel. (2 Timothy 2:25-26, 2 Corinthians 4:3-7, Ephesians 2:1-10, and John 3:1-8) Conclusion: At the judgment, those God rejected from the beginning are still guilty because they loved and chose to commit actual sin and never truly desired God or freedom from sin even while knowing of his existence, their guilty standing, and the death that awaited them, and mostly for rejecting Jesus. And even though God predestined them to be as they were, God cannot be at fault because: 1. As the eternal supreme being with no one over him and no wisdom or conceptual or concrete reality existing outside of him, he himself and whatever he desires and does is the very standard of what good / righteousness is. Therefore God cannot be wrong in ANYTHING fundamentally because he's the one who defines it and epitomizes it by his very eternal supreme existence and subsequently the owner of all things. 2. As Creator, God has full rights to the life and destiny of all creatures like an author / filmmaker does over the characters in their story even while they are consciously participating sithout him puppeting them. 3. Planning that sin happen is not the same as approving of it or directly making it happen, the chief example of this is Judas' betrayal of Jesus which was predestined and prophesied yet evil in God's sight even though he used the death and resurrection of Jesus to save humanity.

[@busybody1474]

​@@phieble when you're done with your insane verbal gymnastics.. You're just agreeing that God has foreknowledge of our lives before we live them and he gives us free will to choose.. and he commands us to choose, Choose today who you will serve.. there's only one thing you can do with that verse, BELIEVE AND OBEY. Now if you are of the opinion that God chooses who he saves and who he condemns, I surely hope skin color isn't involved.. Would hate to think my Holy God is a racist who discriminates, Even our evil society has laws against humans doing that.

[@PatrickSteil]

Imagine if you drop the rest of the Protestant presuppositions and objectively research what the Catholic Church has been doing all along. You might be surprised to find that the Catholic interpretation of scripture is as Paul promised us the bulwork and foundation of truth.

[@johnsteele870]

Are you wearing your Scapular?

[@busybody1474]

Calvinist.. Jesus already told us the gate is narrow, when did God tell you to make the gate even narrower? And how did you get in? You're a sinner just like anyone else and God is no respecter of persons.. choose today who you will serve, if God does the choosing as you insist, why then does God insist that we choose?? This is all very simple stuff unless you choose to complicate it 🤔

[@busybody1474]

Christianity is actually meant by God to be very simple, did you know that? Simple enough even for a child to understand.. This is exactly why God our Creator tells us we must come to him with childlike faith.. We can choose to complicate God's message but we don't glorify God when we do that ❤

[@busybody1474]

When Calvinists insist God saves some and condemns others, I surely hope skin color isn't involved.. hate to think my holy God is a racist who discriminates.. I know when humans do it, it's seriously frowned upon.. especially by Christians, not sure about Calvinists 🤔