Is Your Saddle too far Forward OR Back? (HOW to Set Saddle Fore-Aft)

[@shawntwing3602]

I can listen to this guy talk about bikes and fit all day long. Love your series with him. He is so logical with all his fitting advice. Thanks for sharing his wisdom.

[@AEDumit]

Great! Finally someone explaining how do you 'feel' when your fit is right - and when it is 'not right'. I find this approach the most helpful, much better than formulas.

[@AEDumit]

I also mean that in terms of muscle recruitment. Understanding this is most essential.

[@Therealxiu]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@funnzie]

FINALLY!! a fit video admits there isn't a perfect formula....it's about time! I am an old rider, been riding 10,000 miles a year for 50 years. Today I use 8 different bikes to get a different position every day of the week. Without these changes in bikes and positions I would not be comfortable riding 10,000 a year at 63 years old. So bikes are flat bar, road bar, aero bar // seat tubes at 72, 73 and 74 degrees // handlebar heights different on each // seat height varies by only 1 to 2 millimeters // seat tilt (the most important) varies on all bikes too // Top tube length and stem length vary also from bike to bike. Spine angle to the road varies on each bike from almost vertical to parallel to the road. I practice the main four pedal strokes with variable cadence on all bikes and get to know which is best for all flat rides, rough roads, high winds, all day mountains (no flats). Also get to know which bike to use for a particular workout day; long climbing (10+miles) , time trialing, recovery, long distance, commuting, relaxation low effort soft pedaling....

[@fernandovega5722]

I couldn't do what you are doing. I have 4 bikes in my rotation and they are so close to each other. The only one that I get a noticeable different ride from is my pilot pedi-cab bike. I have 175 crankset for more torque when weighed down. Otherwise, position is nearly impossible to tell much difference from one bike to the other.

[@funnzie]

@@fernandovega5722 I can tell if the seat post height has been moved just 2mm.

[@dailyurbexdan5924]

Think I’m going to quit this hobby as setting a bike up sounds like an application at nasa

[@edwardallan197]

Don't let the nerdier cyclists spook ya! Experiment.

[@stanL9]

😂😂😂😂

[@cheesywheels]

Get a unicycle! Much easier to set up!

[@alvinplays5240]

Skill issue

[@Jan_Be]

It can be very frustrating if you're constantly doubting the setting 🐢

[@mark.winstein]

Hey Cam I want to thank you for these fitting videos. I’m 192cm. Changed my stance, cleat position, moved my seat back and shortened my stem. This increased power, eliminated all knee pain, and also ended hand numbness. I feel like I’m just floating on my bike now. Loving the ride. It’s been cool seeing how little adjustments might turn into knee stress on on side or another or change pressure on my hands, and finally getting everything dialed in.

[@mark.winstein]

Yes truly

[@CamNicholls]

Awesome stuff, Mark. Thanks for sharing on the thread

[@felipecarrasco4922]

How many millimeters did you shorten the stem? I ended up injured with carpal tunnel... I'm adjusting my bike to be more comfortable, I want to know if shortening the stem from 90 mm to 70 mm harms comfort and control. Thank you

[@aleksandrisaykin2680]

Hi, thank you for your videos. Thanks to you, I was able to adjust the saddle height correctly. I had a problem with my knees and the lower back, although I was doing the specialized bike fit before that. I reduced the height of the saddle and now I have no problems with my lower back and my knees. After I lowered the saddle, I had problems with its forward/backward position. I had ligaments on the back of my knee. For myself, I found a method to find the right fore aft position, I set the saddle as far back as possible, put the bike by the wall and started pedaling in the reverse position. That's how I felt that my ligaments were stretched and strained. I moved the saddle rails 3-4 mm step by step forward until this feeling disappeared. And now I am happy :)

[@JeremyLawrence-imajez]

Fascinating stuff. I like how Neil isn't dogmatic about how a bike should be fitted and speaks with lots of good caveats, due to our rather varied physiology and proportions. Though I was puzzled by sorting seat out *after* everything else. To my mind saddle height and position should be set for comfortable pedalling. Only then bar height, tilt etc variations should be set after the saddle position is dialled in. If bars/hoods etc cannot be fitted correctly, then bike is wrong size to start with. I always carefully test ride bikes before buying them and usually the ones I end up with, were comfy from start even without any tweaking, bar my pushing seat back from the usual too forward [for me] position.

[@paulturner7137]

Neill is amazing. Sounds like your best friend explaining something to you.

[@crazyjoedavola9002]

Agree. Enjoyment to listen him explaining stuff someone would charge you hundreds...

[@crowone1293]

This foo is awesome as fuck. Intelligence and good vibes.

[@outlawzz6969]

damn! I need new friends.. all mine does is influence me to do bad stuff 🤣

[@pjgalligan]

I had a bike fit done by Neill, he is a true professional and you’re right about he explains things. Best money I ever spent on anything cycling related, and I’ve spent a lot 😂

[@lunch2102]

You're clearly not Australian

[@spirenz]

Great to see Neill here! I was fortunate enough to work with him on my bike fit a few years ago and he is an absolute legend. Best money I ever spent.

[@rodneybracken1103]

Wow wow wow, I played around with this on my ride today and after the third adjustment I found the a sweet spot. It felt so good and I held my cadence in the 90’s while pushing a bigger gear. Thanks so much.

[@CamNicholls]

Awesome to hear, thanks for sharing Rodney

[@Ossiningbjj]

Neil is absolutely brilliant with his analysis. I'm learning quite a bit and will be getting a bike fitting soon. Good stuff!

[@00bikeboy]

I've struggled with the fore-aft issue for over a decade, this is the best explanation I've ever heard.

[@v57163]

Some nice explanations you did. And KOPS ....LOL... What I did for last 40+ years of making custom frames (several thousands) is relation between Femur and Tibia. That's some start. For ordinary road bike seat angle (what is literally line from BB Centre to middle of the rails, usually some 160mm from the tip of the saddle (normal saddle that is) is between 71 and 74 degrees. Bigger than 74 increase front load on steep downhills and can be dangerous. What I said for Femur/Tibia is based on muscle structure on those bones, with Femur being bigger, having more of Fast twitch Muscle, rider should go proportionally forward (from middle start of 72.5Deg). We have to take in account that positioning the rider on the saddle is critical for their knee opening, and thus proper "lubrication") Without proper movement knee joint will degrade. Also we must take in account that proper sitting on the saddle is only by - having a saddle contact your body on the bottom of your sitting bones. Anything else is not correct. Rider must feel that area in contact with saddle. If that is achieved padding on the saddle is not necessary (many of new super light saddles). We must take in account also that women are having Sitting Bones higher in their body than a man, thus they tend to get their butt more back, in order to find saddle under those points. I personally adopted 20 years ago to dedust 2.5-3 degrees from "Man's" angle, achieving comfortable position for women. Keep in mind that seat angle is only relation between BB and Saddle. That angle is also based on the purpose of the bike (my first Forward Seat Angle bike in 1981 had 85Deg angle, later making QRoo frames we limited to 76/78 as running is greatly effected by more than that. And remember UCI!!!!!!!!!!) That is a start of my geometry drawing. Everything else is added after. Basically, if you have Seat Angle properly dialed on the frame, saddle will never be moved back or forth.

[@Ronald-qj5nx]

Great video. If doing your own testing, don't forget that you should also raise the seat post a little as you move the saddle forward and lower it as you move backwards.

[@gthack371]

Wow, KOPS not even considered worth mentioning. Just shows how things have moved on, or how out of touch I am X) Thanks for these, and to Neil for contributing, 5* content

[@Nomgoose]

Not sure if this is backed up by Niell, but another good test for saddle set back is if you can ride no-handed. I find that if my saddle is too far forward, too much weight is placed on the front wheel while riding no-handed and it becomes considerably more difficult to do as the wheel wants to grab the road with each pedal stroke. When the saddle is set far enough back, this issue is completely eliminated in my experience.

[@hikerJohn]

It only moves an inch. When we were kids we could ride anything with no hands because they had different fork angles that made it easy. Probably still can at 68 years old. I do wobble more than I use to but I can still do it. These seats are not designed for sitting up strait but for riding bent forward.

[@jeffrysusanto78]

YESSS i am with u on this one… i feel exactly the same !

[@patchMKII]

I'm going to give that a go on my next ride.

[@JohnFoxBass]

I just switched to an SMP Vulkor this week (thanks Cam!). It felt fairly good for the first 15 or 20 minutes, then started to hurt a little, then by 90 minutes in, my legs were hurting everywhere down to my calves. I told Coach Colby Pierce about the results, and he suggested changing the seat angle from -5° to -4°. I made that slight change, keeping everything else the same, and the difference was unbelievable. I rode for an hour and not once did I have to move around on the seat at all, in fact I didn't even notice the presence of a saddle under my butt, it was so comfortable it just disappeared. I'm going to go on a 3-hour ride today to confirm the preliminary findings, but just wanted to stress how critical it is that not only are the height and fore-aft positioning critical, but so is the angle. A change of one degree can make a massive difference.

[@CamNicholls]

Interesting to hear mate, thanks for sharing on the thread. Cam

[@ShadowzKiller]

How did you calculate the seat angle?

[@keekch]

hi, you may use an app in iphone to measure it

[@Criscross292]

Not just fore/aft, but also saddle tilt had a big effect on comfort and power output for me. There seems to be a thousand ways to get it wrong, and just one way to get it right.

[@trentnicolajsen3731]

the Canadian olympic coaches use to set up our cleats on the pedal with the ball of the lower big toe in line with the peddle axel, then they would get us to move the cranks straight up and down, and then use a string weight plum balm and hold it on the side of the knee cap indentation where the hinge of the legs are on the outside of the leg, the string then lines up with the pedal axel. and you move the seat back and forth to line in up. in that position one can see if the upper pedal leg is too high or flat, adjusting height so your upper leg mussel has a strong and comfortable push down without pressure to the knee, then we last would adjust the handle bar stem length, and that was done by putting your elbow agaist the seat nose, and your 3 longest fingers reached the mid bar.

[@robertmills6772]

Very practical, yet very scientific. I will apply what I've learned this weekend and throughout the week to find the best saddle position. Thank you.

[@steve_m.3403]

Hi Cam, very informative video. I just swapped out my Sella Italia SLR Kit Carbonio saddle for the new Fi'zi:k Antares Versus Evo R1 Adaptive Saddle, this is the new 3D printed carbon saddle. It helps spread the support of my sit bones over a larger area and is much more comfortable. However, my hands were hurting and have been for some time now. I realized after watching your video I was pretty far forward on the bike and so I moved it back about 12mm. I'm now much more balanced and my hands feel much much better! I also did a FTP ramp test today and I have not lost any power. Thanks to you and Neill!!!

[@cyclingeveryday7346]

I am so happy I found these videos on this subject. I couldn't figure out why my toes were always numb..Moved my seat forward and changed the angle and omg the difference is night and day!!!

[@richscorer]

Maybe a playlist, setting out the how to's like how to set saddle and seat height then what size handlebars and stem lengths???? So pull them all together for a bike fit series?

[@teriemer]

Great video explaining the physics happening during saddle fore-and-after placement. The balance test is really great and helped me a lot.

[@robwilgenhof4386]

I had No idea as to how technical and detailed this sport was !! I’m still madly Loving it ! Getting out there and crushing the Km ‘s. !!!

[@nealart]

Took a while for it all to sink in but I got it dialed in now. Thanks a lot.

[@stevestewart-sturges2159]

Tri guys had a sliding fore and aft seat post in the early 90's, pitch your seat way forwards for the flats to simulate running and could side back for the hills. Weighed a tonne..... had a cable and lever to release the lock on the seat post... can't remember the make but the shop I was mechanic in catered to tri and everyone wanted or had one...

[@someformofhuman]

How you doing? Thanks for the video! I would also add that setback has some detriment to power output. I don't have a power meter but I have experimented with my SMP by moving it all the way back on its rails and vice versa. Based on perceived effort, setting the saddle too far back seem to have much less weight on the hands but I found it very difficult to push down the pedals especially on the climbs and the pedalling motion feels like I'm 'leaping in circles' and Neil is right - there is a ton of hamstring burn and no quad fatique; there's a lot of heavy breathing and my heartrate seem to be much higher. I do get occasional low back pain on the left side when it was set too far back (maybe due to the a much closed angle and slightly less flexible left hip?) Overall, I just felt like I have to put in more effort to go faster and you're more inclined to grind the gears as opposed to spinning them. On the other end setting the saddle far forward, I feel I can put out more power especially on the climbs with a fully loaded touring bike. My breathing was much more controlled but felt like I was falling forward. Becuase of that, you tend to spin more to counter the effect of falling forward. It may be more powerful however I can't sustain that position on very long rides and your quads are the first to go. I don't get any potential knee issues as someone commented - that can be a factor of cleat positon being too far forward or the saddle too low for a seat that's a little bit far forward (like in a TT positon). I know for SMPs you don't need to adjust the saddle height when you move the seat fore and aft due to the way the rails are angled. I think we can perceive setback as like getting off a chair - put your feet far forward away from the chair and try standing up; it's amazingly difficult. But now, put your feet just in front of the leg of the chair like you always would, you will get off much easier. But if you put your feet way beneath your chair you will most likely fall forward when you try to stand up.

[@CamNicholls]

Thanks for against on the thread Stefan, interesting to hear

[@Flyingfist]

I think thats in relation already as Neil mentioned the effect of it specially on climbing👌

[@SurpriseMeJT]

I had the same observations. When I moved to a hilly area from completely flat, everything changed. My back hurt, I got numb toes - all stuff I read about but thought it was just old guys with really bad positions. This year I had the worst back pain and long rides were the worst. I'd go out and ride hard and my quads were never really sore. I'd lower my saddle which temporarily resolved the lower left back pain but it would come back. I decided to get straight seatpost for all my bikes and my cadence speed increased back to what I used to be able to do, my quads are now working better as my legs are build for sprinting with shortish femurs. Of course these changes meant my reach became shorter and my butt wanted to slide back to maintain the previous reach I had been accustomed to. I then bought new longer stems, dropped them lower to get even longer and now descending on the road bike with 73 degree head angle is much, much more stable! The geometry of the bike really does determine how one should be situated on it. Sure I use more upper body strength but that just means I will have more control and work out that core.

[@danielhall3895]

Neil actually knows what he's doing, kudos for not pushing KOPS. Why do so many other "professional" bike fitters keep using KOPS as a fitting metric? It was never supposed to be a fitting metric since your knee will wind up over the pedal spindle at some point in your stroke. KOPS is a bike sizing holdover from when road bike frames all had the same basic shape with a flat top tube and came in 1 or 2 cm size increments. It was always just a quick metric to check if you were on the right size frame within a size up, down, or middle of your range, not a setup/bike fitting metric. I'm starting to think that a lot of bike fitters out there are the chiropractors of cycling, every time I see one center a saddle position, and a crankset setup around KOPS.

[@johnherrera6123]

this advice is mostly for someone who is doing 50 miles or so, more a week. if you are a weekend warrior, you should be fine. it is when you start really getting into it, that you need to learn more, cause you are on the bike for much longer, time wise, 1 hr, 2hr., i just did 61 miles in 4 hrs, this is when all this info comes into play. Don't quit, just realize, this is the same with everything. in the begining, i used to read articles about things like the feel of the road etc., i could not detect such things, now 7000 miles later, and a bike upgrade, I DEFINITELY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALLKING ABOUT.

[@7sao]

Cam, just want to say thank you for these fitting video and big thanks to Neil for sharing these information. I had all the symptoms he described; but after watching the saddle height video and read a lot of Steve Hogg's articles, I pretty much eliminate all my issues. This video further confirmed my fore-aft adjustment. I'm now much more comfortable on my bike with higher FTP, Thank you!

[@CamNicholls]

Good stuff mate, thanks for sharing on the thread.

[@doctorj7112]

This a great video. A lot of these guys confuse this subject by making it over complicated. ITs a "feel" for sure. Your body knows more than you think.

[@game-day870]

I want to visit Australia just to meet him

[@tefltoulouse]

The last minute or so is very interesting. I remember finding a forward position that was amazing for climbing power using my quads when I was in the mountains for a few days once. But have never understood why it feels so awful when on the flat for hours. I get it now - thanks!

[@bimfred]

Love the image of The Badger on the piano. Thank you for sharing your skills Neil!

[@ardnfast]

I was getting some disturbing numbness in the nether regions within 10 to 20 minutes of starting my ride. I changed my seat height and position and the numbness went away. I may still not be in the "perfect" position but this adjustment has allowed me to start enjoying my rides once again. Thanks!

[@edymarkonthego4096]

Forward saddle as my starting point since I have a shorter arm reach, and gradually adjust my saddle height up/down till i get comfortable.

[@helicart]

There's more to saddle set back than discussed here. Spinal flexibility and low back pathology Hip joint morphology (FAI) Leg length discrepancy Iliac artery morphology and effect of increased hip jt angle. (risk of iliac artery endofibrosus or compromised venous return) Respiratory efficiency - chest expansion, diaphragmatic excursion. Abdominal congestion/comfort Injuries carried Aerodynamics improvement by lower back angle and elongated upper limbs Rider center of gravity and its influence on steering and braking control (especially relative to avoiding speed wobble) Cadence efficiency and comfort Endurance vs sprint power Optimal saddle height and setback, and stem height/length are reached after consideration of which of the above are being prioritized. In grand tours some riders adjust saddle position based on terrain and role within the team. I was surprised to hear Neill confounding saddle setback with stem position. Saddle height and setback are better determined prior to and independent of stem location. Neill's views expressed here don't account for why most GC riders use a bike frame one size below recommended by the manufacturer.

[@CamNicholls]

Thanks for sharing

[@patrickparisienne1917]

Great video mate, your bike fit series has to be the best in KZbin!

[@flyingnorseman]

Working with my girlfriend on this recently. I know this sounds very novice but teaching people how to sit on the saddle first is critical. Too many new riders do not understand where the contact point is supposed to be and there is serious discomfort or injury caused by it.

[@psycheout4733]

The only thing I'd further question on this is that because setback is dictated by a no hands balance test (Steve Hogg's version at least) setting up anything on the bars perfectly before setting the saddle setback is kind of pointless as the balance test only cares about an in the ballpark of starting back angles. Since you literally release the bars to conduct the balance test bar position in and of itself doesn't matter and additionally the balance test should be able to be done in both the hoods and with a little more difficulty the drops so all that really matters is the back or torso angle and the bar position doesn't matter as you have elbows and any road bar has ample area to support yourself to achieve a starting back angle locked in a trainer. So trying to hone the front end before getting the saddle position pretty close first is not the most ideal progression. It's figure out the saddle position first reflective of the basic rider position then hone the front end to match that saddle position. Then take into account the compromises needed for lack of mobility or other issues to help ensure long term comfort and efficiency.

[@darinsteele7091]

He is right about as far forward before too much hand pain. It really is an experiment, you will also have more power with the seat further ahead and cleats all the way back.

[@davidburgess741]

I adjusted my saddle position forward until it felt right. Consequently I measured my 45 year old road bike which is like an old shoe. My new Cannondale Topstone L size wound up with identical saddle nose to center of the hoods dimension. The classic with 40mm shallow drop bars, the Topstone with wide gravel drop bars. The nose to center of bb dimension is also identical. The saddle height is identical. The Topstone has a more relaxed seat tube angle, and would be about a 57cm bike, The Dave Moulton is a very steep angled bike with a short top tube, and would be about a 53cm by most measurement standards. The only measurement consciously selected was the saddle height. Short leg length, long torso and arms. The sloping top tube allowed the L frame to have straddle height. It's amazing bikes from vastly different eras can fit comfortably, and ride so differently. Also my aluminum track bike feels great in a different way, but with vastly different handling ( razor sharp), and similar to that on the body after 100km!😂

[@setharnold9764]

Thanks for this. I'm just getting started and I don't have a clue what I'm doing yet. It all feels wrong. I love your dog. Very helpful pup. Maybe that's what I need to get this to fit.

[@MasteringGrappling]

Fit is something I have been messing with for the past year or so. When I first started riding I just rode. Then I went into my aero mode which meant that I was getting as low as possible. The problem with that was I was not able to generate power because I was too far forward. Then I realized that I had to be centered in order to maintain good power. I use 3 settings to set my position assuming crank length is correct. 1) Set the seat height with a centered saddle on the rails. Reach for the levers and set where my hands are landing. Fine tune the seat height so that the seat is not cutting into my groin area. 2) Drop the stem to a comfortable height. 3) adjust the setback if you feel like you are a little jammed at the hip. I used this method and it feels like this position seems to be the most comfortable I’ve had yet. What do you think about this method?

[@Drago0900]

Great video. I had it way too far back causing me a lot of frontal knee pain. Moving it forward seems to have solved the issue.

[@camacdonnell1]

You and Neil got me laying awake at night thinking about QF millimeters with these last few videos. Please. Make it stop.

[@CamNicholls]

Hahah

[@trabink2]

Really funny, LOL!!!

[@c.thiele1588]

Thanks for the valuable content. Neill mentioned sth. about a bad position with the bars either too high or too low. I wonder how Neill would define a bar being in the wrong position. It would be great to have him clarify that. Thanks for making the videos possible. Cheers from Germany

[@fatihboyar9697]

great instructions but the most important point was made at @8:10 with the piano effect. I understand that it was a must and clearly made possible the comprehension wow

[@gregknipe8772]

thank you for this long running primer on the many 'hows' of bike fitting. awesome.

[@alexmorgan3435]

Where you sit depends on what music you play on your piano.

[@daisyseptimus561]

😂😂😂

[@imacmill]

Save time with forward/back adjustment by using a binary search for the best position. Assuming 50mm of available travel: Start with saddle all the way back, and if that's bad, move it 25mm forward. Test again. If it's too far forward, move it back half the available difference, else move it forward half the available difference. Rinse and repeat until you've got a 'good' position (as described by the guy in the video).

[@PradeepMenon666]

Man. Neill is some kind of seat whisperer. But that's passion. This is what science is all about. Not one BS claim out of this guy, he backed it all up with logic.

[@gregp3522]

Read my mind, this was my #1 question for Neil. Awesome explanation. Now I need a shorter stem 😳😅Thanks for posting!

[@steve-rb9bm]

fab upload.Went to check my used road bike to find the seat was pushed back to the max,I put it in the middle as a starting point,can already reach the bars easier thanks.

[@mcring543]

Yeah, this bike fitting series with Neill is incredible! Thank you so much. I'm learning lots.

[@rw3080]

this is gold content!!! cant believe is for free here on yt

[@OFlick-en8yw]

Been debating about getting a bike fit since you started this VLog with Neil, but alas, I don't think I can find someone who is knowledgeable and experienced as he is. I will definitely need to do research before next season. As usual, keep the Neil "knowledge Train" Stanbury coming.

[@finncox23]

Cam, I know these videos are in the RCA Training Tips Show Playlist on your KZbin channel. For the benefit everyone who has been following this amazing video series, and the fact that people like me are probably re-watching these videos multiple times, might it warrant its own separate playlist?

[@CamNicholls]

Yes, I have actually been meaning to get to that! The LIST is large when you're a sole trader, but I will prioritise it! Cam

[@100rando7]

Very new cyclist here, I really enjoy this channels content!

[@CamNicholls]

Thanks for sharing mate 👍

[@ucdcrush]

I have noticed that when my saddle is too far back, taking off from a stop in a higher gear is hard. Like I can't get over the top of the pedals. Until I scoot forward that is, and at that point it feels good and powerful, and that tells me I need to move my saddle forward. Also, the specific fit on the saddle can make it easier or harder to slide forward and backwards. Since Neil says you want the seat as far forward as possible without overloading the hands, I wonder why he suggests starting by moving it all the way back? I know it's just a starting place, but why not start with it all the way forward, and if you feel quads burning up and too much weight, move it back 5mm, etc..

[@majormaccas]

I think it will be due to how easy it is to spot the contrast on yourself, listening to your own body. Too much weight on hands won't necessarily be apparent in such a short time I suspect.

[@craigwilson118]

When he was saying too far forward tends to over-engage the quads and too far back hits the top hamstrings, I was thinking 'wait, the opposite happens to me'... and then he said "of course there are some people where they find the complete opposite". Clearly a good fitter who accepts and works with the individual and doesn't push people into the same box. I find when I'm too high and forward I can spin really well but my cardio maxes out and there's no power in the legs. The other way is all leg power and can't spin. When I can ride no hands, and transitioning to standing feels quite natural and there's a balance between legs and lungs it has to be close.

[@ClarkS963]

Like the paint at the end lol. Playing piano on the bars love it n

[@tofuguru941]

I'm 6'4 on a 60cm cyclocross bike that I use for gravel and road biking... they have slightly different geometry from a strict road bike... I find myself never being able to find a true/perfect position. I'd say my limb lengths, torso lengths are all proportionate (in other words, I'm not 6'4 with long arms/legs short torso, or short legs long torso... I'm proportionate). In order to get full leg extension... I extend my seat post fully at its limit. Maybe 1cm passed it actually. Not only that, but I have to slide my saddle all the way back for a bit more leg extension, and reach (Since if I keep the saddle neutral or forward, I feel cramped up front). I even have a 110mm long stem. The position this puts me in.. gives me a feeling of kicking forward while my femur bones are too close to my torso (which doesn't allow me to put out as much power... although it puts me in a more aero position). Issue is... If I shorten the stem... I'm cramped. If I slide seat foward... I'm cramped. If I slide seat post down... legs don't get extension. I think I've come to the conclusion that my frame just isn't enough for me... Gotta go full road bike, maybe a 61cm. Thoughts from anyone? Looking for all the ideas I can get...

[@Philatlondon1]

Interesting. One thing I don't quite get is that if the balance test is so important, why wouldn't you work out the fore/aft and seat height first and then sort out the cockpit?

[@ShadowzKiller]

You falsely pass the balance test with a low, far back saddle. That was my experience at least.

[@SherazChoudhary]

If the cockpit is high you are more upright and balance passes everywhere. So you need to know what your back angle and arm extension is before figuring out what seat setback balances that combo.

[@Handletaken4]

The steer tube should point at your ear (center of balance). Modern bikes have top tubes 4-5cm too short. If your balance point is not in line with the steering point you lean into a turn and the bike continues straight. A track bike with a 75 head tube will be much different than a touring bike with a 71 head tube. Try it.

[@lunam7249]

75 degrees???!!!biometricly I concluded this also but nothing related to the ear....please explain your ears theory

[@jacksonianc]

Thank you two-this series has been really helpful and validating as I have been working with my own positioning on the bike. Keep them coming!

[@toddn.kenyon6900]

The Vertex Fit Cycle is the only fit platform that completely isolates saddle setback (effective seat angle) from the rest of the bike fit web. You can sweep it through a huge range of setback while rider works under load yet without altering distance to pedals, bars, drop, etc. You should check it out.

[@dualdanman816]

I.m 5\11 with long arms I'm riding a vintage Schwinn world sport, your video was very helpful" thanks much man🤟🚴🤙👍

[@donparsons1237]

It would be neat too see this in slow motion,,, yes,,, finding that sweet spot makes a world of difference... Thanks for sharing...

[@pd1jdw630]

So much information to digest again. And still it all makes senses.

[@mickchaganis6607]

Thank you for an informative video, I am that rider....... Lift weights, physical job, top heavy and suffer from hand numbness. After watching this video, I set my daily ride up on the turbo, even setting my seat right back, I still feel pressure on my hands and can not do the balance thing, is there anything else that I can do? I've looked at setback seat posts, apart from being expensive it would totally spoil the look of my 1978 steel bike. Thank you 😁

[@parrisgeorge9708]

Cam thanks for a great channel and videos. I find it very interesting and cool that there's a group of fitters and frame builders that have been fitting cyclists in generally similar ways for a number of years. From your fitter Neil, his mentor Steve Hogg, to various frame builders here in the US and I'm sure other parts of the world Keith Bontrager, Ben Serotta, Dave Kirk, etc. ALL these guys and I know more really have it down when it comes to fitting as well as other cycling aspects.

[@CamNicholls]

👍

[@olo398]

good reference when i build up my bike, gotta fine tune my position. thanks for the easy to digest info.

[@CamNicholls]

Enjoy the build 👍✅

[@bigwave_dave8468]

Great info! I've always struggled with saddle position while trying to not load the bars too much and also not go numb from too much pressure despite riding on my pelvic bones - I evenutally transitioned to an ISM split saddle (common for Triathletes) to avoid excess perineal pressure butt it's not ideal. I've tried several trough-style saddles to no avail but seeing this, I will experiment a bit more. Thanks.

[@Domwpiemonte]

De road is almost always flat in the Netherlands 😂 You basically telling people to listen to their body 🙏 Thank you for your time.

[@Draculapin]

Hey. Correct me if I’m wrong but maybe we should start by setting up your saddle height and the saddle position first using the no hand balance technique and the 3mm increment over 20 min. And then once this is done, set the bars and reach with the minimum hand pressure

[@mohitsultan4649]

This was the video I was finding for a long time. Thank you so much for making a video on this topic

[@ashleyhouse9690]

I’m 6’ 4” tall and manufacturers have always recommended 60cm frame size for me. I have two bikes at this size but have generally felt a bit too stretched out even with a shorter stem. A year ago I decided to buck the advice of the manufacturer and bought a 58cm Cannondale Synapse which feels a lot better for me. Even so, having followed Neil’s earlier advice regarding the balance test I still find my saddle needs to be as far back as the seat post will allow to pass the balance test and not slide forwards on the saddle. This is with a 15mm setback seat post as well and something that is also not touched upon in these videos i.e. seat post setback. I’ve shortened my stem down to 100mm as well and it’s not slammed either but my position on the bike does feel a lot better. I’ve ordered 165mm cranks as well because I do have some hip impingement due to a couple of accidents in the past. That will obviously put the saddle up a bit as well. Bottom line is even with the smaller bike, saddle right back and shorter stem I still feel like I am not totally nailing the balance test without sliding forwards on the saddle a bit when pedalling. I’m not sure where I can go from here. On my 60cm bikes (Scott CR1 so not race bikes) it basically is what it is. I’ve gone as far as I can with those and just have to accept that maybe they are too big for me.

[@tgoods5049]

I am 6’3”, 170lbs. I always have a very hard time doing the balance test. I’m going to go ahead and call BS on the balance test. I don’t think it works for all body types, especially tall guys like us.

[@C4ldur]

I am 190cm and I also ride with the saddle nearly all the way back. I tried to move it forward but it didn't feel good, so I pushed it back again. So maybe there is nothing wrong with it :)

[@jorgehilera7674]

Get a 20 mm. setback seatpost. Maybe a 25 mm.serback is better for you.

[@peterdobos1606]

I love the way this guy explains the biomechanics behind everything. However, when he said that bit about "if the bars are too high or too far forward or backward"...I though "relative to what"? You can't talk about handlebar setup in absolute terms, just as you can't talk about seat positions in absolute terms: they're realtive to each other, as he said with that spider web analogy. The only connection to the bike that is not adjustable (ok, a little bit with cleat positions but it won't change during your rides) is the foot-pedal connection. The rest of it: saddle, stem, bars are all interconnecteded as per the spider web thing. So my question to Neill would be: starting from scratch, where would you start and in what order do you go? I am thinking start with cleat positions, then saddle height, then saddle front-back, then tilt, then move to the front end with bar height and front-back...??? thanks heaps!

[@ppham]

Basically anything goes as long as you can ride haha I ride with my saddle set back all the way back and it works great for me, I'm just worried about too much leverage on the seat rails 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@petespeight3350]

I don’t know whether I should swap stem for something slightly longe or adjust saddle first. Advice please

[@cygnusxl5]

I love listening to Neil he's great! I do have a question though: Has Neil ever come across a situation where 'the balance method' just doesn't work for someone?

[@martink3089]

Thanks a lot. Sounds super plausible and 100% confirms my feelings over the years. Unfortunately I am still experimenting in finding an optimal position for long alpine Mountain Biking. Any professional advice here for let's assume an 8 hour Marathon, from which almost 6hours is 8..18% steep uphill of 45-60min duration each, the rest is level or downhill. Compared to "flat road and race bike theory": How to adjust position for this case? Certainly more to front. How much? How to adjust seat angle? Certainly nose down. How much? Which of the 2 is the better parameter to start trial & error with? Thank you!

[@edsassler]

You say that people position themselves based on their use of large muscle groups, which I agree with, but most riders go-to skill set comes from standing and walking, not pedaling. The easy way to show this is to stop the pedal at 3:00 and tell the rider to push down. Most people (almost all) will fire the quad. In walking or standing that’s how you lift your body weight because the hip is somewhere above the foot. On the bike the quad extends the lower leg from the knee. You’ll see the hip push back in the saddle. Two things are going wrong, they’re pushing the pedal in a direction it can’t go, and the connective tissue is pulling down on the knee as it goes through range of motion... Every fitting school I’ve been to tries to avoid any form of coaching, but I find that until I teach the rider how to isolate the glutes and quads, I can’t set up fore/aft position. To take this one more step, both large muscle groups only have mechanical advantage for a small portion of the pedal circle. Glutes can only transfer power from 1:00 to 4:00, quads can only push forward from 11:00 to 2:00. Few people ever think about timing their muscle contractions, lots of people (GCN) say you can’t change how you pedal. I’ve always found that humans are trainable (I play a dozen musical instruments, timing muscle firing and making it autonomous is nothing new for me).

[@liammcgough9969]

Thanks for the video. My question is, why are the handlebars set all the way down on most modern road bikes? On my retro road bikes, I usually set the saddle and handle bars levels to each other. I found this to be a very comfortable position for long rides with very little muscle fatigue. It appears every modern road bike I see the saddle is way higher than the handle bars and the handle bars are slammed all the way down. Are people riding bikes that are smaller to reduce weight?

[@utrsk.8966]

I am new bike and I need a lot to learn from you, greeting from pacific.🚲🚲🚲 thank you Neil and Sam.

[@MishMash95]

Really fascinating video! Ive always had trouble with this and have resorted to having my seat very far forward as While my quads do feel a greater burn, the big problem that I felt when it is set further back is not so much burn in the hamstrings, but rather a feeling of not being able to push the power out and the lever action of the legs not aligning well with the pedal. Not sure if this is just due to weakness in the hamstrings and chronic over-engagement of the quads, but would be interesting to hear more about how saddle fore-aft affects seated power delivery. When im seated “on top” of the pedals, I feel I can really drill down decently higher seated power, but it goes to crap if they are too far back haha. Wish I could find a bike fittter as talented as Neil! Unfortunately I’ve heard a lot of mixed review of ones here, who either just plug your numbers into software and ensure things are within general ranges, or have the old-school mentality of following all those preset rules which don’t really work.

[@parrisgeorge9708]

You brought up a really good point with "fitters" that just plug numbers into a computer. I know a couple of cyclists that went for a $$$$$ "fit" and beyond it being a waste of time and money they were in pain whenever they rode. Part of the issue was that the shop that did the fitting has a rep among a subset of racers and these other cyclists completely bought into what was being sold.

[@trabink2]

Got base plate extenders, and indeed now getting the for aft tweak... Perfect timing

[@roivosemraiva]

I resently had my bike stolen... and having to start anew and fresh with a new bike was a frustrating problem. Its a slow process . And yes, i wrote down my previous bike measurements, and it did nor translate well onto my New bike ..thank you for your channel..

[@kaiyuan-wang]

What saddle fore-aft position really affects are the center of the body mass (mentioned in the video) and your flexed hip angle. E.g. If the rider has hip flexion mobility issue, the saddle should be put more forward. Also, a joint produces less force at smaller angle - when the rider feels his hamstrings & glutes are engaging with the saddle putting more backward, the truth could be the opposite - they are probably having a hard time keeping up with the demand, and eventually the rider can suffer low back pain over prolonged exercise. As for which muscle groups engage more when pedalling (knee driven or hip driven), this is almost irrelevant to the bike fit - given the fact that most people spend most of their time sitting every day, it's not uncommon that people nowadays have difficulty in getting their glutes fired - but it can be changed, especially by proper strength training. The toes pointing is irrelevant too unless the saddle is way too high, it's part of the technique. KOPS offers a rough range, depending on which part of the knee is taken as the reference point, and it's like how human body naturally generates downward force with lower limb extensions (think about squats). It's just that KOPS doesn't need to be millimeter precise.

[@gavinfinlayson485]

Greetings from UK, I hope you're doing well over there with all this Covid_19 BS right now. Another brilliant video, by far the best on this topic I've come across. Thanks to Neil as well obviously. Safe riding 👍

[@CamNicholls]

Cheers Gavin, agreed re the BS

[@CamNicholls]

@Wooly Chewbakker You're reading it incorrectly. I don't believe the disease is BS, but I believe the media carry on and the way Govts are reacting to it is BS. People die every year of all sorts of illnesses including bad flu seasons that kill hundreds of thousands. However, COVID-19 is used as fear-mongering clickbait by the media and used to political advantage by Govts, rather than really carrying about the community as a whole.

[@GummeeH3]

I've been riding for many years. While I haven't been fitting people professionally, I pay attention to how people look on the bike. That said, the thing that most guys doing fittings now don't understand is that while KOPS may not be the 'optimal' position, it's a repeatable spot to reset to. Otherwise, you're guessing where you started from to be able to reset and try something else. I mean how do you reset to a 'balance point?!'

[@hrukin]

Since you only should change one parameter at the time, it´s a good idea to lower your seat when you move your seat back for the starting point. If not your effective saddle height will change, actually quiet a lot. Perhaps the best way to do this adjustment will be on an indoor trainer so your level will be constant.

[@holderbert9368]

Amazing stuff but one thing i wish he'd have adressed is how i tend to compensate saddle for/aft changing by sitting differently on my saddle which makes it even tougher to address properly.

[@CamNicholls]

Cheers mate, Neill does sort of cover this at the end when discussing climbing but I know we could have gone deeper.

[@dkharris111]

After watching this I am further forward than ever before. I am running a 0 setback post and I am a little more than midway forward on my rails. The last time I was "fit" my seat was about 69mm behind the BB center. Now I am closer to 50.....Feels good over all but after a longer ride I get a light soreness in my patella tendon next day. Seat height feels good. 20mm seems like a big jump so perhaps some time is needed.

[@CamNicholls]

Interesting to hear, thanks for sharing on the thread

[@dkharris111]

@@CamNicholls thanks. During yesterdays 60 mile gravel ride I found the sweet spot. I think my HB height may need to come up 5mm to compensate but my seat feels spot on height and fore/aft.

[@WinsteadSpeedShop]

One thing that did not get mentioned while he was talking about moving the saddle forwards and backwards. You're also changing the height relative to the bottom bracket he needs to comment on how the writer should account for the changes in Sato height when testing different for naff positions of the saddle

[@iMajeala]

I literally have just been messing with my fore/aft on the trainer again this past week trying to get around some numbness and super glad this video popped up! Exactly the method I’ve been using to try finding that sweet spot and still hold a more aero position.

[@PunkrockNoir-ss2pq]

Video starts at 4:30

[@J.M.Andrew]

Love that you inserted piano sound when he mentions "if you can play the piano" lol