The Vocalist vs. The Songwriter.

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[@CamrynSuzanne]

Hey guys! I hope you enjoy today’s video . Try Rocket Money for free: rocketmoney.com/camrynsuzanne #RocketMoney #personalfinance

[@positivitywins5687]

🚀

[@diamonddandy8271]

Can you take this argument to the ridiculousness of “The Voice” not crowning a black female voice.

[@feelgood2994]

Michael Jackson beatboxed his beats when he was songwriting, I don't know why we're forgetting that vocals can be an instrument.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Absolutely!!

[@mariec1585]

Yes!

[@SideEyeee_]

YES

[@nadiaevee]

LOUDER!

[@nishaaaaaaaaaaa]

Ariana does this too, not with beatboxing but just vocalizations to write the melody pass before defining exact lyrics

[@maximilienmusaka3218]

You can be the most talented songwriter in the world, BUT, when you have bad vocals, no one will CARE. But when a great vocalist is not a good songwriter, no one will even care as much.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Thats how I see it🫣

[@Aeunax123]

I gooooootta disagree a little bit just with that last part! Really good vocalists with (sometimes) silly lyrics can be overlooked super easily! For example, Mariah Carey 😂🤍 (She’s amazing , I am not talking shit! She just has some unserious af lyrics sometimes that I didn’t notice for years bc she just sounds so good!)

[@msevolution2317]

Is this purely in the pop sphere? If not - How does Bob Dylan figure in this ? Grating vocals and v. limited range/ dynamics but songcraft is quality.

[@kayn8703]

@@msevolution2317 Definitely a pop perspective. Multiple folk, rock, etc. artists came to mind for me that disprove this.

[@lisah8438]

That is true for pop,r&b, and soul music. For folk singers thevwords matter

[@WikkyPedia]

I can accept a singer who writes 5% of their songs, even little but has control of their voice... But a singer that cannot sing and only write ???!!! Be a Writer then, Let the title of singer for others

[@CamrynSuzanne]

That part!!!!

[@Yeccy3]

I love that they say that, when for example the beatles are one of the greatest acts of all time and they are not known for having great voices, they are great for their lyrics and innovation

[@ajx8404]

but there can always be a fan base who is attracted to an artists signature sound without them having an outstanding voice, even if the general public doesn’t think they can sing. and some people can only write music that makes them specifically sound good that wouldn’t emotionally translate with an artist like bey or ariana

[@ajx8404]

@@HotPinkOwl i don’t consider softer singers unable to sing (h.e.r, kehlani, summer walker etc) , i’m referring to singers who don’t have a lot control over their voice or much range, but still have a tone that their fans enjoy like taylor swift or ciara

[@ajx8404]

@@HotPinkOwl & labels nowadays don’t choose artists based on technical ability anymore , that was more in the motown days lol. now it’s about what sells & grabs attention

[@dvalinm]

"Go read a poem then" 😂😂 so true

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Bc really thoo😭😭😭

[@mariec1585]

😂

[@AngeBiampandou]

I hollered bc bfr 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@archmichaels]

I mean, Camryn is the princess of shade atp next to Queen Mariah ofc.

[@widowgirl1254]

😂😂

[@jcoeurtis]

Mariah Carey is really an anomaly. She can blow with the best of them, can write like a beast, and has her hands in production and arrangements with her insane background vocals layering. Truly a once in a generation talent.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

100%!

[@katylamb2714]

Thats why she's one of the GOAT musician to ever walk in this planet

[@farfelllee]

AGREED.

[@zariaspell1088]

YESS MAAAM

[@drewm.2790]

Mariah Carey, Adele and Lady Gaga all sitting pretty amidst this debate coz they have both the vocals and the songwriting 🙊

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Say it louder for the people in the back🗣️🗣️🗣️

[@harmonandrews2849]

Lol, exactly. Lady Gaga will always be my fave

[@squarcircle2254]

Adele doesn’t solely write 90% of her songs. Of all her albums she only singhandedly wrote 6 songs. Also, her vocals are not on the same level as Mimi or Gaga. She has average to poor technique most of the time. Her greatest asset is her dark warmish tone and emotiveness. That’s all.

[@rial5161]

@@squarcircle2254 how delusional you are, Adele has written many songs with barely 2 or 3 writers, the only song that she hasn't written is Lovesong which is a cover.

[@squarcircle2254]

@@rial5161 i’m not delusional. Everyone and their mother swears Adele solely writes all her music because they think she never co-writes. But that’s not true. Adele doesn’t solely write 90% of her songs.

[@bryanalstoncoxing]

A great vocalist can ELEVATE a poorly written song into something profound and entertaining that is worth listening to Also, opera singers don’t write their own music…are you going to tell me that they’re not talented?

[@CamrynSuzanne]

This!!

[@bryanalstoncoxing]

@@CamrynSuzanne A lot of Whitney’s album tracks weren’t great songs and had below average lyrics…but HER VOCALS made them into amazing music that still can be listened to and enjoyed across generations Even I Will Always Love You was a well written Dolly Parton song that had long been forgotten about until Whitney’s cover turned it into the bestselling single of all time

[@SideEyeee_]

EXACTLY

[@SideEyeee_]

@@bryanalstoncoxing*one of the best selling single

[@stonyknights7260]

This is a fact. Tina Turner was NOT impressed with a majority of the songs on Private Dancer. Toni Braxton didn't want to record Unbreak My Heart.... The voice is the instrument, not the pen.

[@jailyndavis7137]

Also Dolly Parton an amazing songwriter. But let’s not act like Whitney’s voice didn’t make I will always love you the iconic ballad that it is today. Voices do matter!

[@CamrynSuzanne]

That part!!!

[@hurtspublishing3906]

It was #1 hit for her before Whitney version

[@jailyndavis7137]

@@hurtspublishing3906 That’s amazing as it should be Dolly deserves it. but, Whitney made it iconic! To the point a lot of people didn’t know it was Dolly’s song first. That’s the song that’s associated with Whitney Houston. You cannot tell me when people think of that song they don’t think of Whitney Houston🤷🏾‍♀️

[@archivesunset4214]

the thing about dolly too is that she is a amazing vocalist on her own and her original version of I will always loves you is actually good In a different context than Whitney's

[@ahmedbarakat2809]

Dolly is a great vocalist too tho not as strong as whitney but still pretty good

[@hellocamy7]

Ariana Grande is a THEATRE KID she most definitely deserves the hype. And I will probably play a Lana del ray song about the worst relationship ever for my wedding because her lyrics sound so beautiful with the vocals hence creating: MUSIC.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Yes, let’s wake The theater kid point up! She is multifaceted and theater will teach you that. The singing, the acting, the dancing. The proof is there.

[@ultraviolettas]

Which song 👀

[@burnt.norton]

exactly and i also see a lot of people saying lana and ari and bad lyricists because they take a contemporary approach to writing which is such a dumb point 😭 anyone can find random "sophisticated" words on the dictionary, not everyone can showcase personality and serve vocals. ari and lana on top always

[@dorcaswilliams3816]

Both songwriter and singer are equally talented and important!

[@CamrynSuzanne]

I would argue that this is the most reasonable answer 🙌🏽

[@randywalker7840]

The most generic answer

[@westindian1685]

@@randywalker7840 It's not generic, it's the real answer for this topic. Songwriting is just as important as being a powerhouse vocalist in the music industry, you need some sense on the brain as I can see.

[@Meteoritecharm]

@@randywalker7840 It is literally the smartest answer. Why can’t both of these talents co-exist without competing who’s better?

[@OO-pl4wn]

So true, to each their own ♡

[@Blaccasf]

Once again these people can’t lift Taylor up without putting down Ariana grande , calling her a “ cartoon” . How rude, why do people hate so freely

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Yeah like that was uncalled for!

[@rakkurankaiyo]

lol, this comes up alot as my best friend is a major swiftie, and I am a major Arianator..... so we get in arguments alot, just for fun though cause now we pike both artists, like im obssesed with Rep and he's obsessed eith Dangerous Woman

[@Princess_Faith1]

Exactly

[@ArgoBargo]

It’s weird tho, when people lift ari I always hear them putting down Taylor and I’m over here so confused cause I like them both and there’s literally no reason to put them against eachother?? Like they excel in different fields and that’s okay

[@tea_gossip]

girl arianators do the same thing to taylor so stop crying

[@mohithas960]

I think a lot of times we forget that artists like Florence welch exist. She's got the powerful voice, the songwriting, stage presence... basically a girl who can check the boxes off. Ik she isn't a mainstream pop star and FATM is still lurking just beneath pop-stardom, they definitely have potential.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

A huge talent !

[@krizismenya2171]

i wanna mention marina (and the diamonds) too, i love her so much😭

[@alissalalala]

@@krizismenya2171 yess i used to listen to her all the time as a kid!

[@yutisima]

agree! but lets remember "Florence + the Machine" are a band, not only her

[@bryanalstoncoxing]

Vocals matter the most for me. I don’t understand why people discredit singer that don’t write their own lyrics Talented actors don’t write their scripts, sew their own costumes, edit their movies etc. Why are pure vocalists like Whitney always seen as less than because others write the music?

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Clock it!!!

[@Yeatfan10160]

Great way to put it ! I never thought of that

[@amyc2633]

Facts

[@REGGIE31307]

THIS!!!

[@vernicegirl8987]

Exactly! And why isn’t that same energy givin to people who ONLY writes? I don’t understand why singers are the only ones held to this standard to do it all but not the other people behind the scene.

[@mae64khlo]

The way swifties twist the fabric of reality to fit their narrative is truly something. I've seen them say that they would rather hear Swift "softly sing songs that she has written herself, rather than hear other artists 'howl at the moon'. So now, to lift up Taylor, they put down real vocalists by reducing them to crying wolves.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

It’s actually insane 🫣

[@Shai_Shaib]

Tbh I'm a swiftie and I'm tired of her Fandom and her hatedome both sides are way too extreme. Don't get me wrong there's always valid points on both sides but it's just tiring these days.

[@alissalalala]

i don't get why so many people in this fandom try to put others down so much 😭 i love taylor AND ariana and they are both talented in their own right

[@courajess]

Yeah, I feel like the conversation is an attempt to move the goal post so Swift wins.

[@Aiibh]

What swiftie is saying that? I'm sure it was an insane one. But the fact that you choose to hate them all for it? Says a lot about you

[@kng001]

Whitney, Celine, Mariah, Beyoncé could make an album without a single word and I would still listen. And says that they’re the most god given talents.

[@Oneasianpersuasion]

Thank you for including Celine ❤️❤️ I love her and her music ! She is a gem.

[@turtlesareslow2040]

“Their voice is their instrument” you ate that

[@buterarianator]

songwriting is really important but like as the tweet said go read a poem if you hate so so much vocals in a song, vocals make the song

[@CamrynSuzanne]

!!!! Exactly

[@47.shivangi22]

We Stan taylor for the lyrics and content of the song,Taylor has never been addressed as a good vocalist because she's not trained and was not gifted with thin vocal cords so what do you expect?

[@buterarianator]

@@47.shivangi22 who's talking about taylor?

[@tinycindy2977]

​@@47.shivangi22 you don't need thin vocal cords, an alto or a mezosoprano still hits

[@vixxexo6855]

Most people don’t care about lyrics. Like I know like almost no lyrics of songs I listen to, but I can easily recognise melodies and vocals of a song. The vocals and instrumental will always be way more important then lyrics. You hear the songs, not read them.

[@_KayBee_]

A singer’s first talent, first recognizable talent at that is their ability to sing. Being able to write is just a bonus. Whitney Houston doesn’t write but we will never ever hear anyone try to diminish her legacy or artistry because we’re talking about SINGERS.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Thank you!!

[@47.shivangi22]

Are you implying Taylor can't sing?💀

[@CesareCamprini]

@@47.shivangi22 she can sing, but not like others

[@CesareCamprini]

the difference is singing and singing well

[@47.shivangi22]

@@CesareCamprini and...?

[@vivienngo5234]

lol tswift is just as much a creation and cartoon as ANY other pop star. like the whole narrative she’s had as being just this quirky awkward girl next door and then this anti hero were clear marketing campaigns bc let’s be real she’s always been a rich popular girl but she and her team constructed this accessible personas to draw in a mass audience of young women. LOL I literally cannot w this public disdain towards the art of creating artist personas in pop music as if music isn’t there to entertain us as much as touch us…and the refusal to accept that their favs aren’t as “authentic” as they believe them to be but you know they’re sucked into these fake parasocial relationships w the artists they idolize

[@CamrynSuzanne]

I’m glad you brought this point up because that really pissed me off and that article how that lady was trying to say she’s a cartoon. Like you said , in pop it has almost always been essential to have a persona or an image. Like you said they marketed Taylor as the girl next-door & in a lot of ways what Kanye did to Taylor helped skyrocket that narrative. So for people to act like there was no persona or work done to shape Taylor’s image is so disingenuous

[@alebormio4842]

"I would be complex, i would be cool, they'd say I played the field before I found someone to commit to"; literally every pop phenomenum is bound with a presentation given to the public, there are no reasons here to say that about Taylor, an artists who writes songs, explains them, genuinly shows their meanings to her fans; the fact people keep saying things about her without even knowing her will always make me smile

[@ButterscotchCloud]

“What’s the point of good vocals if I can’t relate to the song?” is a WILD ass question, yo 😂 I can’t sing worth a damn, but I can appreciate the craftsmanship that the most elite vocalists exhibit. I'd rather listen to a skilled, emotive singer interpret someone else's lyrics than listen to a bland, pitchy singer-songwriter any day. This discussion reminds me of how people often dismiss and diminish artists whose greatest (or second greatest) strength is their dancing/performance prowess. Like, if it's *that* easy to hit intricate choreo while simultaneously moving the crowd, you get your arse up there and do it then.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Right, like that statement was blasphemous 😂 who in their right mind would say something like that

[@47.shivangi22]

You guys are weirdos

[@CesareCamprini]

@@47.shivangi22 then go away

[@lsnqkcnqkpnkpsnqpjcbpq]

that tweet about not relating to a song was wilddddd. would it kill anyone to listen to a song about experiences that were not their own? its goofy af. and even then, wouldnt it be so boring to listen to songs about experiences youve already had?

[@ArgoBargo]

Can you not appreciate the craftsmanship of… a song, then? I can appreciate both, personally

[@bratzscene3131]

As an Arianator, I am so unbelievably tired of the constant Ari vs Tay debate. Ari was the biggest female artist in the world a few years ago and now is second to Taylor. Ari is the best vocalist in mainstream music right now while Taylor is the best songwriter. While I prefer Ari for several reasons, they both have their strengths and weaknesses and the constant comparisons are pointless! Let's just say that Mariah Carey bodies both of them in their respective lanes😭 Oh also this isn't directed towards you, just thought I'd bring this up, love u xx

[@CamrynSuzanne]

I appreciate this comment! It can become a tired argument. However, ari is often discredited to this point. As if she’s just a vocalist and this is used as a reason why she is “worse” or “inferior” to Taylor. I agree tho Mariah is BOTH equally as good. She’s queen

[@angel2641]

Agree with the Mariah Carey point lol. Ari is a great vocalist but not the best out rn. I would say Beyoncé bodies them in terms of vocals Edit: Beyoncés vocals are better than Ari or Taylor. No hate just facts.

[@Noor-x3x]

Ariana's new album is heavy on great lyrics

[@SideEyeee_]

Taylor is not the best songwriter. She’s just popular.

[@Meteoritecharm]

⁠@@angel2641 I heavily agree with the Mariah ‘no middle name’ Carey. One of the greatest vocalist and songwriters ever(someone can argue with a wall) I also agree with your Ariana point, she has an incredible voice but the best rn in Mainstream music is Beyoncé. Beyoncé definitely bodies Ariana and obviously Taylor in terms of vocals. What I think is over looked in the making behind a song is melodies and constructing, something I think Beyoncé is very talent in. Unfortunately people think the process behind a song is black and white when it’s a very, very grey area.

[@butterflyszn2342]

Recently, people have been tearing into Taylor's lyrics with her latest album because they are definitely cringe-worthy and uninspired. Due to all the negativity, Swifties are trying to portray themselves as victims, asking questions like, "Why is Taylor the only artist that receives so much criticism for her writing?" Perhaps it's because Swifties have made it their mission to prove to everyone that Taylor is the greatest lyricist since Shakespeare. However, when people actually read the lyrics of "The Torture Poets Department," they are left wondering where the depth in songwriting is. Ironically, Taylor's fans bring more hate to her than Taylor does to herself.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Exactly!! If you dont go around trying to poke at everyone else’s song writing and lyricism maybe ppl would be more hush when she’s not writing up to par

[@ArgoBargo]

I mean loml wasn’t exactly cringeworthy… there are a few bad lines I agree but it’s not the entire album

[@Feriellll-13]

Swifties complain because people only pay attention to her bad lyrics and not her good ones. Tortured poets has lots of amazing lyrics, but everyone is obsessed with the gta line and calling her a bad writer because of that, even though it was purposely written in a silly, cringe way, and people just ignore her good lyrics. That's why swifties get mad.

[@OmniaFarea]

@@CamrynSuzanne thats just the twitter swifties, theyr're so embrassing that i dont consider them as fans 😭

[@LarissaMejia-fh9gj]

I feel like the issue is that the "cringe worthy" lyrics are SUPOSSED to be cringe worthy. The GTA line s SUPOSSED to be cringy because she is comparing her feeling to the cheesy feeling you feel as a teenager. If you listen to songs were she is ACTUALLY songwriting like The Smallest Man Who ever Lived or The Prophecy, you see WHY she is a praised songwriter. You can´t judge someone´s songwriting when its a literal glitter pen song.

[@LamASMR2]

I see time and time again people praising Taylor for her songwriting, which is fine however. If we're gonna give her credit then the media needs to acknowledge Mariah's songwriting. She writes 99% of her music and on top of that she's one of the best vocalists of all time.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Yesss why tf does mariah not get the songwriting credit she deserves! I feel like the ones who know , know but she doesn’t seem to get praise for that generally

[@mariahCarey2703]

I'm hybrid stan but the real tea is Mariah actually more talented songwriter than Taylor

[@hurtspublishing3906]

And Mariah has also written for others

[@RNM-bu4rj]

Mariah doesn’t get credit because many people can write songs but vocalists are rare…… which is why vocalists will always trump songwriters. Her voice is exceptional and unique.

[@alissalalala]

so true

[@hfatel]

Many ppl can write catchy and even intricate songs, even u and me But actualy singing is a rare talent. Singing like Mariah, Ariana, Aretha, Beyoncé is even rarer

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Exactly, the vocal anomalies

[@OO-pl4wn]

Let's just appreciate how Camryn is literally replying to ALL the comments, so open minded and ready to continue the conversation in the comments, we are too lucky

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Sooo glad it doesn’t go unnoticed!🥹 i love chatting with you guys

[@mariec1585]

💯

[@LuxuriousLenay]

@@CamrynSuzanneI recognized that too! This is why I love your channel, you're very engaged with your audience and you make awesome content, your videos really keep me thinking 😅

[@Eman-vp6ju]

Interesting that only one side of this debate presents vocals and songwriting as mutually exclusive: the songwriting side. They *need* it to be a dichotomy. They *need* it to be true that vocalists can't be good writers, because they can't argue that their songwriting faves (ahem Taylor) are good vocalists. Meanwhile, the vocalist side acknowledges that vocals and songwriting talent can coexist, because their faves already do that. Team A's argument is reliant on downplaying the other's talent; Team B simply uplifts their own talent.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Yep!! You hit the nail on the head

[@Talia778]

But Taylor isn’t a bad vocalist. She’s not as skilled but her lower register is very pretty and she’s worked hard to be a better singer.

[@alebormio4842]

are you kidding? No one is mutually excluding anything, however, if it had to be so, Ariana would be the one who's the best vocalist but doesn't even write most of her songs; on the other hand, Taylor Swift writes all of her songs and has unique songwriting skills, and at the same time she CAN sing; not that great of a vocalist for sure, but she can sing; please, don't get to tell swifties that writing and singing can coexist; btw, you think having better range and technique is the same as having a better voice? Because that's largely arguable when it comes to saying Ariana's better than Taylor's

[@alebormio4842]

@@Talia778 I also like her voice more, but even though that's subjective they're saying that because they have no arguments

[@Ken-wv8bt]

how about both: SZA

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Oooo that’s a good one👀

[@TabithaK-ue4ci]

Sza is not a vocalist 💀😭

[@SideEyeee_]

@@gogogogigShe isn’t even one to begin with.

[@SideEyeee_]

SZA is NOT a vocalist. Y’all are so used to mediocrity that y’all call EVERYBODY a vocalist when they’re not. Her songs are also all the same and she’s not that great of a songwriter like y’all make her seem to be. Y’all respect her because she writes which is okay but she is not a great writer.

[@EagerCompass-mm7gj]

U mean Lady Gaga?

[@SideEyeee_]

Ariana can write, sing, produce and perform.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

100%👏🏽

[@Turtlelover8888]

Yeah she is still underrated even being considered the biggest pop star in the world people don’t appreciate her enough.

[@onegrandepls]

real

[@Hollywould94]

She’s also a terrible person lol I loved her until recently.

[@hfatel]

Yes! There are multiple instances of her seen adding layers upon layers, harmonies and runs etc to many of her songs. That's priceless.

[@joeygibson6867]

I would say vocals are more important because you can hire writers. But I’m more IMPRESSED by great lyricists than great vocalists. I’d rather listen to music by a great singer whose songs were ghost-written but I think writing actually takes more talent

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Ohhh this is interesting! It seems like you have strong arguments for both but you maybe enjoy vocals more but you think writing takes more skill?

[@joeygibson6867]

@@CamrynSuzanne exactly. Personally I think good writing is more impressive (but both are talents in their own way). But like you said in your video, they’re SINGERS. They’re main job is to SING. And I’d much rather listen to Whitney Houston than Taylor Swift any day of the week

[@Saladfork1929]

Well… you can hire vocalists too. Lord knows we’ve seen Jennifer Lopez do it LMAO.

[@cadiieboii8221]

I hear you but I don't think songwriting takes more talent I think both take equally as much talent. Both are things you can be taught but to be great at you have to just have an innate talent like some people will never be able to have the range or agility of certain amazing singers and some people will never be able to see the world and express it the way certain songwriters do.

[@ramonajavier5938]

I disagree a little I feel like singing is much harder to achieve because your vocal cords are a muscle, and you have to train hard to sound good and to me it takes a lot more energy and dedication to train your voice to sound amazing.

[@Ashley-ve2mt]

The Vocalist is so much more important than the songwriter. What sells a song is the performance of it. You can be the BEST writer ever, but if there is no one capable to sing your song and elevate it, then we just have some lyrics on paper. The vocalist is the medium through which a songwriter needs to share their talent to others. If the lyrics suck, it sucks, it’s not going no where. But it’s the performance, the singing ability that matters. Sometimes because of how well the song is performed you kind of gloss over how some song lyrics are borderline creepy or inappropriate like “Too Close”, “What would you do?”, or “Every Breath You Take”.

[@OO-pl4wn]

Low-key true, good lyrics can't stand on their own without beautiful voices

[@Thejdreamerzful]

Not the "Every breath you take" being creepy 🤣💀 - cuz I just realised it now it's a bit off loool

[@Ashley-ve2mt]

@@nirguna17 I can definitely see that. Then vocalist and producers are the true sellers of a song

[@fireflieswishes]

tbh i like a band where when the songs don't land on the album they bring it to life when they perform it. so vocals and stage presence are really important to me

[@Mr.Goldbar]

I'd say the vocalist and the songwriter are a packaged deal, one can't push the song to its full potential alone. I feel like both need each other the same way and one without the other is a waste. You can be the most virtuosic vocalist in the world but if the songs you sing are not good then it's gonna fail to capture the crowd. You can be the most talented songwriter in the world but if your songs are not delievered in the best way possible nobody will seem to care about them.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Yeah, I think in a non-polarizing answer that both is important and I would prefer prefer art as to contribute to both aspects and are good at both! It’s just realistically it’s hard to come by that is equally good at both so then you kind of deciding between the two if you had to choose

[@gabmad99]

Artists like Victoria Monet are so underrated and yet so talented, dare I say even more talented than a lot of the “big” artists from this decade. I would definitely, completely recommend u guys to listen to her music if u guys are looking for a more complete experience (vocals, lyrics and performance)

[@hyxxcb]

fr she is so underrated I hope she gets recongization which she deserves.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

I love me some Victoria Monet!! She is excellent and I’m so happy she’s getting more credit. Because not only is she an amazing songwriter but great vocals, amazing performer. What’s not to love?

[@gabmad99]

@@CamrynSuzanne Facts!!!

[@bannedplaylist]

victoria is no longer underrated. under appreciated is the better term but she’s now successful, and the term “underrated” holds her back despite her progression into mainstream stardom

[@iannalvarezz9051]

THANK YOUUUU for adding that Arianas not respected enough as a musician bc she's so overlooked when it comes to production, lyrics etc its annoying

[@CamrynSuzanne]

I had too! Because people are just spreading lies at this point to make themselves feel better. Like no, let’s have an honest conversation!!

[@jcp5302]

She may not be as good a lyricist as Taylor for example but she’s still great and her producing is amazing. Her signature layered vocals are one of a kind tbh. Yeah vocal layering is not a new concept but she takes it up a notch by adding so many layers while harmonizing. You have to have a really good ear for music to not get lost in the all the melodies and notes while also knowing what other harmonies you want to add and changing it up on each line or word. She uses her vocals to her advantage even in producing which makes it hard for other artists to replicate with the same quality.

[@anonymousteen9961]

She wrote eternal sunshine. She is a good lyricist

[@mia-oq6qf]

she doesn't write her own songs and thats ok, praise her for her vocals

[@anonymousteen9961]

@mia-oq6qf she co-wrote almost all of her songs, and she wrote eternal sunshine all by herself.

[@kingenvy7291]

The reason yall disrespect vocalist is because a lot of you can’t aspire to be star rated vocalist because y’all either don’t have the voice or the talent. However anyone can easily pick up a pen and write page full of rhetorical literature and call it amazing songwriting

[@RLucasReviews]

I think vocal talent intimidates people. This is why people like mediocrity- it’s less intimidating.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

You hit the nail on the head! I’m starting to think this is what it is

[@idk_a_plant]

nah you are so so correct wtf. I think it's because a lot of swifties live kind of mediocre lives or don't have a whole lot of personality that isn't "mainstream" so talented artists feel like reminders of the people they'll never be

[@ArgoBargo]

@@idk_a_plant okay ow, first of all. Second of all… maybe I just like it when she walks really hard and sings Style!

[@doierry772]

@@ArgoBargowalks really hard 😭😭😭 omg lmaoooo

[@stephanysa6440]

the issue w Taylor is her songwriting abilities make up for the fact she’s not the best singer… but when her songwriter isn’t up to par her latest album is the result for that…

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Yeah, because I feel like that last album was a disappointment as far as the lyricism goes. So that kind of left me with this question.

[@cadiieboii8221]

I think this new album is a mixed bag cause it has some really good song writing like on so long London or the albatross but then has some goofy songwriting like on I can do it with a broken heart and so high school

[@gleamingtwinklingandsoinviting]

@@cadiieboii8221 not so high school😭its supposed to have lyrics like that cuz, yk, the title...

[@cadiieboii8221]

@@gleamingtwinklingandsoinviting I’m aware, but it doesn’t remove the fact that the lyrics are goofy, never said it’s bad said it’s goofy.

[@gleamingtwinklingandsoinviting]

@@cadiieboii8221 i mean, true, but thats to be expected from the title

[@skypidge2093]

RAYE is such a breath of fresh air right now in the industry cuz she can both write and sing. Amazing powerful vocals while also being a talented writer and composer. Phenomenal.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

I’ve been seeing her videos more! Imma have to check more music out

[@Capricornsaresuperior]

When I think of the 90’s and early 2000s, I think of great, meaningful songs. I could connect to the lyrics. Though, it’s because of how they were sung, phrased, and pronounced. THAT genuinely grasped my attention and love. Words that are spoken are merely poems. They are not a song!! Brandy has some of the most beautiful lyrics EVER in her songs. She didn't write a lot of them. Do I care? No. It was Brandy’s tone, rasp, melodies, and runs that brought the song to life. Words are powerful, but how they're delivered is more significant, imo.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Yes annunciation! That is something that is lacking today….even in some of my favorite artists. I agree with this comment wholeheartedly. And sidenote: I loveeee Brandy

[@mitchliam974]

This

[@Capricornsaresuperior]

@@CamrynSuzanne It is severely lacking. It saddens me. And yes, Brandy is one of my favorite artist ever. The albums Full Moon and Afrodisiac do NOT get the love they deserve :(

[@shookarena]

MOTHER KEEPS US EDUCATED AND FED

[@CamrynSuzanne]

😊😊😊

[@jenskosmos]

Also, sometimes artists openly share that a song that they didn't write resonated with them and they felt instantly connected to the song, even if they didn't write it. One of Demi Lovato's signature songs is Skyscraper - Demi did not write the song but the vocals, her delivery of the lyrics make it clear that it is a deeply meaningful song to them, especially when it was released. But will "well she didn't write it" crowd still say that it is not authentic to Demi?

[@CamrynSuzanne]

This is an excellent example of this! The way demi sings it , i would have never known or thought about the fact that she didn’t write it

[@teodoragordic8854]

bro this is the same as if we watch a movie and say a script writer is more important than a good staring actor ☠️☠️

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Right! As if the actor doesn’t make the movie what it turns into!!! They are the face and they convey the lines!

[@fan7708]

Absolutely not. I disagree.

[@teodoragordic8854]

@@fan7708 why

[@fan7708]

@@teodoragordic8854 Movies are story driven while music is more sonically driven. All movies NEED a story. However you don’t need good/poetic songwriting for a song to be good. Sometimes you don’t even need lyrics. Music is about conveying an emotion through sound (songwriting can be a toll to enhance it but it’s not always needed) back in the day music use to have long beat intros and outros and feel connected without even hearing a single lyric.

[@teodoragordic8854]

@@fan7708 i agree u make a good point!!

[@bhunyee]

taylor may be a good writer (i wouldnt know) but her music sounds so boring to me 😭 i always called her genre “end of the movie” music

[@CamrynSuzanne]

A lot of her recent music sounds like one long song to me🙃

[@Inksplatter1991]

End of the movie!? 😭 The end credits 🤣 I love that 😂

[@bhunyee]

@@Inksplatter1991 like its atmospheric and not BAD, but why would i willingly listen to it

[@alebormio4842]

we're thanking you for your in-depth arguments about Taylor's capabilities lol; as you say, you don't know her

[@kailiasage]

The thing is that Taylor has always said she’s a songwriter (and a writer), but to say that she doesn’t have any vocal talent is a lie. No, she’s not as good of a vocalist as Ari. But to say that Taylor hasn’t gotten better with her vocals is absolutely ridiculous when you can hear the growth. Her recent album isn’t for the general public because it is so heavily focused on her writing. There’s a lot of callback to previous albums that can be understood when it’s taken into context. It’s not an album made for the general public, but for her and her fans. This, I think, is an important take away from this discourse because people really do want to connect to lyricism and that’s why her fans love her work so much. Ariana is an absolutely masterful singer and her talent is beyond anything others can get close to. I will say that Eternal Sunshine has some of her best writing and I am so glad to have both in an album from her!

[@fitzgeraldgatsby4885]

She is and will never be a VOCALIST and thats fine. She needs to work on her live vocals as well. Bec Consistency is key 😊

[@trini2DBone134]

​@Ichijou_Matsomoku308"can'tstand"? you missing out ngl

[@trini2DBone134]

@Ichijou_Matsomoku308 if it's something that needs to be picked, then it's not objective

[@trini2DBone134]

@Ichijou_Matsomoku308 who said it was? 🤨

[@Ms.Fragrance868]

Taylor is beloved because her songs are relatable and easy for the average teen and preteen to sing along to. But the average teen or pre-teen aren't doing vocal scales and hitting glass shattering notes.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Relatability is absolutely the keyword to this equation

[@lisah8438]

Why do adults like her then?

[@Ms.Fragrance868]

@@lisah8438 feeding that inner child I guess. Why do millenials mostly listen to music from their teen to early 20s? Music tastes are subjective.

[@alebormio4842]

lol, "easy for the average teen and preteen"; literally one of the most refined and poetic lyrics in the music industry; yes, her lyrics are relatable and shouldn't it be the message an artist should be able to give? And they're relatable because of the themes she talks about, which are so definitely not superficial; her fans may not be able to do music scales (I do) but they surely are able to understand poetry other artists's fan can only imagine then; also a lot of pop music is way mooore superficial and repetitive than hers, she creates her own style in music, so please

[@tinab9561]

​​@@Ms.Fragrance868Are people really listening to Dress to feed their inner child though

[@tinglar5432]

You always have *the* take! It’s so sad and pointless that the conversation has devolved into pitting vocals against songwriting as if they don’t go hand in hand to what makes a song along with production. I think many of these stans also betray their real thoughts because they’ll insist songwriting is above vocals and that vocals don’t matter and good singers aren’t actually talented while also elevating and exaggerating their favorite artists’ mediocre to subpar vocal talent. They wanna have their cake and eat it too while putting down other female artists.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Stan wars honestly make everything worse! Always

[@hyxxcb]

personally i prefer vocals in music because of course the music is best way to show ones vocal ability whereas writing skills can be shown in various other aspects other than music but does not mean people should use shit lyrics with good vocals (unless you can carry it) that's why i think i prefer good song-writing with great vocals than high level lyrics with mediocre vocals.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Oooo this is very balanced! I really like how you explained this

[@Jessica.Shawnte]

I agree

[@underjake435]

My personal gripe with this kind of discussion is that I think people (esp on stan twt) will just say anything to insult an artist they don't like. EVEN if what they say isn't even true. Why are we pitting all these talented artists against each other? Especially when it comes to taylor and ariana or taylor and beyonce. All three of them are incredibly talented.

[@eleasy1976]

I think the two reasons people praise song writing (sometimes MORE than vocalist) is because 1: it makes them feel like smart and intellectual people who care about the deeper, theological meaning of the song and not the face value vocals And 2: I seriously think people like the relatability in someone who can’t sing like themselves😂 But yes, I think both are incredibly important- that’s why I Stan TORI KELLY!!

[@CamrynSuzanne]

I have to agree that’s probably what’s going on here🤔 I heavily agree with point number two! People can sing along easier when they can hit those notes. For people who value relatability, they may enjoy someone who’s not as vocally sound because it’s easier to sing along to. I also LOVEEEE tori kelly!

[@eleasy1976]

@@CamrynSuzanne thanks for replying🥺💜 and yaasss TK!! I’d love to hear your thoughts on her new album…😉😏

[@alebormio4842]

you are hilarious; songs are made in first place to send messages, talk about themes and make you think about your own life experiences; now, are we preferring artists who have excellent singing skills (they're many ones) but don't even write their own songs or artists who are songwriting genius and have medium singing capabilities? That's to be decided by the single person, but you have to know Taylor Swift is a pretty good singer and a unique songwriter, so please, don't you get to tell people that an artist who's the greatest songwriter is like by people just because she can't sing (she can for the record); and you wanna compare her album and songwriting to Tori Kelly's?

[@eleasy1976]

@@alebormio4842 erm…I did not mention Taylor Swift once. I didn’t compare her to Tori Kelly either- I said I personally love artist who take their voices very seriously AND their writing, THAT is why I Stan Tori Kelly…again, I did not mention Taylor swift once

[@alebormio4842]

@@eleasy1976 I said that because she's in the cover of the video, plus mjne was also my opinion about what you said and why I disagree

[@mirrorball96]

i think taylor might not be in the same lane as these vocalists mentioned in the video, but her songwriting combined with her good vocals and especially her delivery, is why she is a successful musician.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Yeah, and that’s why I say in the video that that’s what a lot of people say is Taylors edge. It seems like it’s common knowledge that she’s not the best vocalist but again she somehow still at the top right now despite that. So clearly plays high value on songwriting.

[@mirrorball96]

@@CamrynSuzanne very much so

[@alithelady3479]

You’re smooth with your transitions. I also think some people just wanna argue and want people to love who they love. We have different tastes for a reason.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Thank you!

[@TheOnlyHollywood1]

I'm not a pop guy, I'm into hard rock and heavy metal, but I think both go hand in hand. You have guys like Axl Rose, Paul Stanley and Freddie Mercury who could sing, write songs and play their own instruments both live and in the studio, or you can have a situation like Motley Crue where Nikki Sixx wrote the lyrics, Mick Mars would come up with the riffs and Vince Neil would sing them

[@mariahCarey2703]

The best example for both categories to me is Mariah Carey

[@BozeDoesGodsWork]

The last one we actually had that was up to that caliber was Amy Winehouse. But her vocals are more Jazz than Operatic and grand like Mariah’s.

[@goncaloferrari619]

nobody will ever convince me that being able to a song is a better talent than being a great vocalist lmaooooo (when it comes to artists ofc)

[@masc4mascara39]

Why does it have to be a ‘better’ talent? Why is it not just a ‘different’ talent?

[@goncaloferrari619]

@@masc4mascara39when comparing artists people love to say that an artist is better than another because they can write a song. don’t get me wrong, writing is a great talent, but it shouldn’t be as valued as being a vocalist when discussing an artist’s talent

[@buterarianator]

​@@goncaloferrari619FACTS

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Agreed🍵

[@CamrynSuzanne]

@@masc4mascara39this conversation is when we discuss comparison (which is inevitable). This is a debate i’m seeing amongst music fans when comparing their fav artists. So yes, both are great talents but when we discuss comparison…i think its a valid argument

[@nasirw6407]

I think the best combo is a great vocalist who writes their music cause you can feel the emotion. A songwriter who cant sing is just bad and a vocalist who gets prewritten music is just radioplay.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Yess yess the true balanced answer is both, it’s tough though bc theres a handful of mainstream artists that really have it all

[@pressley1637]

yes!! like mariah !!!!

[@yayadrew]

Celine Dion didn’t write “My Heart Will Go On” or “The Power of Love.” Was it hard to “feel” her/the emotion!

[@antdiogaurdi8250]

I agree with the singer-songwriter statement. Best of both worlds. But i think that a singer who can bring magic to an otherwise boring and flavourless song is the best part of the magic. Adele and Mariah Carey are held in the same regard or respect as Whitney Houston because Whitney was able to take anything, national anthem included lol, and make the world stop and listen by her musical and emotive depth(which is largely shaped by her storytelling and delivery).

[@RamboQuellz]

So can we acknowledge that all this "who wrote the song" started during the Nicki and Cardi B feud? People started using that to discredit an artist success for being poppin if people really cared about "who wrote the song" then Ester Dean would be in Rihanna's place considering she wrote majority of all her #1 songs and dang near her entire LOUD album.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

It definitely was amplified HEAVILY during that time. And now it is commonly used in rap spaces. But I purposely made this video mainly about pop because writing is embedded in the history and culture of rap so I think it’s much deeper than rapping

[@SideEyeee_]

Exactly, Nicki put out a LOT of rumors about Cardi during this time that STILK impacts her career 'til this day. She said that Cardi isn’t black when she is mixed (Nicki is too), that she doesn’t write her songs and a bunch of smother stupid things to boost her ego and put herself on a pedestal when SHE also has writers and she sometimes steals too. That girl is not a reliable source and she needs psychological help.

[@Yeatfan10160]

Real​@@SideEyeee_

[@chronicstoicist]

i would argue in recent history it was meek who started it with drake. ever since then more people r questioning which writes what

[@RamboQuellz]

@@chronicstoicist mmmm I don't really think so the conversation surrounding that beef was mostly about Drake diss towards Meek with the back to back and twitter fingers, and you just got bodied by a singing n....

[@thekyrastewart]

If we compare singers and negate vocals, I'm leaving the conversation. The girls are confused. Always love your content Camryn!

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Thank you sis!😊😊😊

[@ilisian]

hi! im a swiftie and thought id just give my take on this. great video btw. personally i do think that to deserve the popularity of a superstar, you should be good with songwriting AND vocals. ariana grande has definitely shown that she has both of those, although her vocals are much more her strongsuit. the opposite goes for taylor swift; she is an absolute mastermind when it comes to songwriting, and although many people see her as pretentious for always using big words in her recent albums i think it shows how intuitive she is, she knows how to get people interested and to pay attention to the lyrics. where she does fall flat is her vocals on a lot of her official versions of her songs, but she has definitely gotten better with that recently, she has tried to play around with her style a bit more, and when she performs her voice is quite strong compared to other artists, she also doesnt autotune that much. so i think that haters dont give her enough credit where its due, but i do think that artists like ariana grande, mariah carey, beyonce, adele, even lana del rey all have a more unique vocal sound to their music, and its something that isnt as "generic" as the typical pop diva.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Thank you for adding your perspective as someone who clearly enjoys both of their music! this was insightful to see the dichotomy between the two

[@Jules-dt5wb]

It's funny how ubiquitous this discussion has become lol. Even in K-pop, there's the conversation now about whether it's important for idols to be good vocalists. Talent vs marketability is the great debate.

[@qurrataynunabuayub8993]

*Mariah Carey enters the room* … “excuse me…”

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Right cause she got both😭

[@mariec1585]

Amen!

[@alebormio4842]

she's a genius but still a different phenomenum from the other ones; I would't praise her to be the best songwriter for sure but that may be objective

[@peacendpola23]

Omg that verse you showed of Taylor's new album... lool

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Yeah🫠🫢

[@LarissaMejia-fh9gj]

The one from I Hate it Here is so beyond context though. I´ll admit it sounds so bad on it´s own but when you listen to the rest of the verse its like so much better, and it´s so funny how people just take that one lyric and take out all the explination in it.

[@Yeatfan10160]

It's like a debate where you can say absolutely anything and it doesn't make sense but if you have a powerful and good voice you can win And if u have a plain and boring voice but a good speech , no one will pay attention.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

This is a great way to put it. Delivery is EVERYTHING

[@koiloylo]

i think it depends whose listening. because ben shapiro wins arguments with his voice instead of the quality of his words, but boy he is not winning me over…

[@syndhel4107]

honestly if a singer cant sing and their songs arent great, im not listening. idc how good the meaning and the lyrics of a song are… i need the song to be listenable and enjoyable, lyrics are the last thing i focus on. 🧍‍♀️

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Teaaa🍵🍵🍵 bc as a singer, i need you to be able to SING. That’s the main thing that makes me personally enjoy music

[@syndhel4107]

@@CamrynSuzanneliterally ‼️‼️ these people focusing on everything but the singing are very funny 😭 like you’re telling me when you listen to a song you dont care about the musicality of it but if the artist used an allegory? goodbye 💀

[@athenax]

@@syndhel4107 You're right, the entire purpose of a singer is to sing, if you can't sing then stick to ghost writing or poetry because I'm not putting my ears through hell for anybody. If the message was important you'd give it to someone who can deliver it, simple.

[@hyxxcb]

absolutely agree on this one

[@joeshmo6953]

In my personal, Mariah, Kelly Clarkson, and Adele are the epitome of a well-rounded, revered, hands on artist. Nobody can sing their songs like they do because they wrote them for their voice. They can also cover anyone's song and make their version the version.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Yes!!

[@kkelseym]

Pumped Up Kicks is a great example here. A song about school shooting that was at the top of the charts and trending for weeks that we were happily singing along to because the vibe was so cool. It wasn't until years later someone finally was like, "Wait... has anyone actually LISTENED to this song???" Vocals, harmony, and the overall vibe of the song will get you so far before anyone actually listens to the lyrics. Taylor's fans constantly push her songwriting skill because they know, we know, hell Taylor knows if she's put on a stage with any of those other pop stars she'd get washed.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Wait a min…this is a great example. That pumped up kid record is crazy bc i dont even think i knew what they were talking about fr until I sat down and really listened.

[@omelasbaby]

Vocals, harmony, and vibe can get you far, but with Pumped Up Kicks specifically, no one highlights the vocals as what makes the song. It's the melody and musicality that got everyone to sing along and melody is a part of songwriting. I would even say that even though the meaning of the song didn't click for a lot of people at first, lyrics like "All the other kids with the pumped-up kicks // you better run, better run, outrun my gun" were captivating to people because of the word choice, repetition, rhyme scheme, rhythm, etc. So in a debate between vocalists and songwriters, Pumped Up Kicks is an example where songwriting wins.

[@olliesconcerned]

@@omelasbaby Ya I think people just ignore the lyrics on that one because its sounds upbeat, but if its a song like what was I made for, then people pay more attention to the lyrics because its a lot sadder sonically and its a lot slower of a song

[@t4lking2myself]

Ariana and Beyoncé have writing credits on their own music (Beyoncé especially). I would say a combo of both singer and song writer.

[@archmichaels]

This debate is getting sickening. I fully agree with your analysis. Not everything is about who's the most talented. Art is all about two or more words colliding to make something new and better. In this case, songwriting and singing heavily rely and depend on each other. Many songwriters on songs literally gave 1 line, which gave the trajectory of the whole thing, and because the artist is honest, he gives credit. Also, when you dive into the unknown, it's better to have the best entourage to avoid looking like a fool or a know-it-all : you said it all when you mentioned Beyoncé's last projects. 😢 The amount of references I've learned so far couldn't have been there if she wrote it on her own. Plus, she knows how to write. Do you not remember all the songs she wrote during her time in Destiny's Child ? It's completely fine to have it all, but the category is singer (which is an interpret). They take words and use their 'instrument' (heavy on the latter) to find the perfect melodies to convey the emotions of these lyrics (which is not that easy to do in a seamless way). Let's praise both and move on, please.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 agree agree agree. Really the debate shouldn’t be so polarizing. It should be as simple as , if you do both, you’re a well rounded talent . And if you’re stronger in one, you are still a talent maybe in a different way. But again it goes back to that singer title., I just can’t understand how people don’t care about vocals when we talk about singers. It’s crazy.😭

[@SideEyeee_]

Beyoncé does not know how to write anything and it’s been proven. She didn’t give credit until now because of cancel culture. I don’t count the samples she uses because it’s another story. Her and Matthew were saying a bunch of nonsense to the press to make us believe that she’s this triple threat when she’s not. Matthew even said to a producer who wrote one of Beyoncé’s that she took credit for that people didn’t care about him and that we care about the artist being a triple threat. I suggest you watch BlackFemininityTV’s video on that because it’s the most well done.

[@emmanuelaumejiaku6469]

​@@SideEyeee_ you are watching black feminity the same KZbinr that was paid from nicki's camp to say shit about Remy and cardi. It's also a know fact that beyonce and Kelly, solange used to write for DC.

[@isace562]

I love artists with vocals but songwriters with good lyrics just hit different, that’s the reason why they are more popular

[@نيشا-د2م]

Isn’t it crazy to think about controversies like this come up b/c people don’t have anything better to do in their lives, so they just stir up drama online 😂

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Yes and no, yesss bc it’s silly to fight over people who don’t know any of us but it’s not silly because music can be analyzed and has been since the beginning of time. I think it’s fun to discuss certain qualities and aspects of music

[@mariec1585]

I like for the music to be good and I love a great vocalist. If they happen to write, play instruments and perform that’s a bonus. “Some” people who write well don’t sing well or want to perform. They make money by having others sing or interpret their compositions. And…that’s fine too.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

A word!! When we discuss singers, singing is my first concern. The other things are a bonus but still extremely valuable and impressive

[@Casagrandeeee]

Mariah is both a vocalist and a songwriter. She is that girl 💕

[@CamrynSuzanne]

True!!

[@katylamb2714]

She's that girllll!! 🎉

[@EagerCompass-mm7gj]

Lady Gaga sitting aside sipping coffee and ready to take the trophy

[@alebormio4842]

I'm sorry, I love Gaga, but do you really want to compare the amount of great songs she does per year to other songwriting artists? I don't think her songwriting consistency is comparable to artists like Taylor Swift, that puts out 31 songs in a single album and all arguably good; this is to say each artist excels in their own field

[@EagerCompass-mm7gj]

@@alebormio4842 honey, Gaga writes hundreds of songs and is also on songwriters hall of fame. Let’s just say some songs should stay in the vault.

[@alebormio4842]

@@EagerCompass-mm7gj what I was trying to say that is Gaga is different and can't be compared to Taylor in what Taylor does; different kinds of songwriting and genres, different excellent skills; out of the numerous Taylor songs, ofc not every one is legendary, but it's consistency that matters

[@EagerCompass-mm7gj]

@@alebormio4842 Being versatile in writing doesnt mean lack consistency. Ive been to Eras tour. No one will argue Gaga is a better vocalist than Swift is. The depths of songwriting is not just about complex lyrics- it has to make sense musically- its music, not literature.

[@alebormio4842]

@@EagerCompass-mm7gj it does in fact, the're unique in their genres

[@OO-pl4wn]

I loved this, you make such valid points, so refreshing and thought provoking ♡♡♡ don't stop the great work

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Thank you so much!!❤️❤️❤️

[@exceladeogun3591]

Firstly, songwriting isn't limited to writing lyrics only. Melody construction, ad-libs and more are also involved. Personally, vocals trump lyrics, and it's not close.

[@andrewgarza6272]

Songwriting is VERY important for bands and musical groups with more than just a vocalist, David Lee Roth isn't a technicaly skilled singer but his band Van Halen could write killer songs to fit his voice. For individual artists like Ariana Grande, I'd say vocals are more important since that's what stands out about them.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Thanks for this distinction! It is important to know that between different genres that also determines what talent takes a backseat or what’s more important

[@space_the_final_fronteir]

Its such a sign that some people think collaborating makes you less creative. Like clearly you are not involved in making art if you don't realise that working collaboratively is the greatest and most difficult artistic skill of all.

[@Ken-wv8bt]

This kinda sounds like the Michael vs Prince debate except with women. Who's the better musician/singer? All depends on what the fan values more.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Absolutely, this reflects similarly in the video i did called “your music taste is lying to you” where I discuss subjectivity and MJ vs Prince debate.

[@mariec1585]

Exactly

[@heiress.]

It’s Michael Jackson. There’s no debate.

[@SideEyeee_]

Yeah, but not really because MJ’s pen was something else. He wrote for practically EVERYBODY in the industry known or not. He can sing, dance, WRITE, PRODUCE and perform. Nobody stands a chance against him. Prince isn’t even all that.

[@reinabooker759]

@@SideEyeee_ okay well you learn how to dance and become a trained dancer, play all 27 instruments, write songs, and produce whole albums. I definitely feel like Prince deserves more credit then what you’re giving him. MJ is phenomenal and very talented and so is Prince. Why do you keep comparing the two? They both made huge contributions to music 🌙💜

[@BroJo676]

The thing is, writing your own song affirms your ownership of that art while singing a song somebody else wrote definitely affirms your performance as some form of vocal acting. That's a reality many people don't like to admit.

[@AXFN_]

Hot take: larger-than-life vocalists have been trending down for decades. Today’s listeners prioritise songwriting & “vibe” over vocal prowess, leading to artists like Billie & Taylor as the face of Pop, and SZA as the face of R&B despite none of them being big vocal technicians. Audiences are gravitating towards rappers, singer/songwriters, or viral moments, over virtuoso vocalists who do vocal gymnastics. Phenomenal vocalists like Tori Kelly, JoJo or Jennifer Hudson struggled commercially because, despite being able to sing the phonebook, their songwriting didn't resonate with the masses. Even with Ariana Grande, I think it says a lot that the biggest record of her career is a Trap/Pop fusion where she barely sings at 10% of her capacity. Let’s ask ourselves why a big vocal moment isn’t her best selling record, and what that says about changing trends and changing listening habits? 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@CamrynSuzanne]

You’re not wrong at all, maybe it’s the rise in relateability . It’s easier for ppl to sing along to your song if it’s easy to sing, not many high vocals etc. which in turn makes people gravitate to a more. I guess I’m still one of those people who really appreciates vocals because I like listening to people who can’t do what other people can

[@RynRyn606]

Honestly as someone that just wants to hear good sounds someone could make a song about a trash can and if it sounds good idc

[@CamrynSuzanne]

I fall along this line, that for me vocals truly make the song. I place it above everything but i do appreciate good clever lyrics

[@RynRyn606]

@@CamrynSuzanne yeah once I lock in and pay attention to the lyrics its like a nice bonus if they’re good. Get well soon Ariana is a perfect example, i just loved the song in general but finding out the meaning behind it made it even better

[@SiriuslyPotty]

That bro at the beginning: I'm a black woman (Ugandan woman) who is a massive Taylor Swift fan, so miss me with the generalisation. You were literally preceded by a white man reducing Taylor Swift to someone who writes songs for "white women who can't get over high school." Equally as pejorative. It's one thing to say "this isn't for me" and another to belittle an entire group of the global population who believe it IS for them. I would actually argue there are also different nuances in being a great vocalist. I don't think it's necessary to belittle Ariana in order to uplift Taylor Swift or vice versa. I think when people say they prefer Taylor's vocals to Ariana's, it's a matter of choice. Ariana is the more technically skilled singer: broader range, fuller tone etc. I think Taylor is a better translator of emotion. That isn't to say that Ariana lacks emotion or Taylor can't carry a tune or can't access a low and high register. Just that they each prioritise one over the other, and are stronger in one than the other. Taylor's lyrics are phenomenal, her melodies are catchy and dynamic, but the reason she has such an international audience is even if you don't understand the words she's saying, her voice is an instrument of her feeling. Kendrick Lamar is the same. He infuses his every word with emotion, and sounding "good" is secondary to that. Ariana and Mariah prioritise the technical prowess. Their voices are an instrument in the traditional sense of the word, like an opera singer. They're vocal virtuosos. Artists like Beyoncé and Barbara Streisand are both. Beyoncé can hit the runs with the best of the vocal virtuosos, but she will also sacrifice the note that sounds best for the note that sounds truest to the emotion she's trying to communicate. I don't know that you can definitively say one is superior to the other, it's just a matter of preference. I would elaborate that Swifties aren't "justifying" her supremacy, but explaining it. Her supremacy speaks for itself, in that she couldn't be so big if she wasn't widely and deeply appreciated. People will attack Swifties for liking Taylor, calling her mid, which FORCES us to defend our affinity for her. In the same way Arianators don't just go shouting about Ariana's amazing vocals: they feel they have to because people are alleging she's mid or overrated. Lastly, I would say Taylor herself would never try to demean a singer by saying they don't write their own songs. PS., I love your videos Camryn, because of how you endeavour to present your opinion, whilst presenting a nuanced and rounded topic for disucssion. It's a real skill to make video where you can't have a back-and-forth with your audience and yet allow for a conversation.

[@zoc.6922]

Songwriting isn't just about lyrics. It's the melody too. Great vocalists will certainly peak interest, but no will stick around to listen if what they're singing isn't good. I think it's one component of the whole. It can elevate a good song into an iconic one. They are both talents. But, there are so many moving parts to a song that nothing can really be "bad" for it to be a good song.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Thank you for pointing this out, in the video I did mention a tweet that talked about how songwriting isn’t just the words but it’s also the melody, the rhythm, the song structure. You have to utilize all of these things together to create a “good song.

[@Red-yv6ut]

Imma defend Taylor here for a bit, she's 100% not a vocalist but definitely can sing (to some degree) so this whole narrative these people trying to push that she CAN'T sing is a bit weird to me because if she TRULY couldn't, she wouldn't be as successful as she is right now. I wholeheartedly believe that no matter how weak your pen is, if you can Bust out crazy Vocals people will be tuned in, example are Opera singers don't write their own music and most of their singing is a bit unintelligible yet we eat their vocals upp, and mind you Blondie has us in a chokehold since she was 16 lmfao so I feel like the "she can't sing" is a bit of a lie lol. tbh it all boils down to Stan culture and how horrible it is. using these amazing icons to their stupid cultural wars which results in this never ending cycle of these twitter freaks fighting of "your fave can sing, yours can't" and "my fave is topping charts, yours not" which is exhausting. it is also Important to note that some of these Stan accounts, they're so in their music bubble that whenever they're hit with different type of music the first thing is making fun of it. the idea of variety between singers seems so foreign to them, Imagine if we lived in an alternate universe where every singer had the same pen power of Taylor/Lana and the vocal power of Mariah/Whitney, it would be dull and hollow. there's a reason why people love the way Billie Eilish sings or lana or Mariah, or Taylor. they're all different and have their own unique set of styles the differentiate from one another which in turn breathes life into their artworks. but it seems like these Stan account live for the continuous destructing cycle of hate (the joblessness omg) God please release us from this mess

[@chichilafemme6336]

Both are equally important. The way I see is a singer’s talent is obviously their voice and that’s what we are drawn too. And what is praised is their objective skill set. Songwriters is less objective and more subjective but they are more “musical artists” because they are singing yes, but they are creating art, that is their main talent and what we are drawn too. Their art

[@RamboQuellz]

Secondly, i think it's also about star power! yes you can write a song but can you demand and command my attention while performing on a stage? Do you turn heads when you enter a room? Does your voice give the song the emotion, depth and swagg that it needs to sky rocket? Kandi Burrus is a perfect example! Hit maker but the song isn't a hit when she sings them herself!

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Ooo a Kandi mention! She really is a hit maker from the songwriting aspect and she’s been able have a long career songwriting bc that’s her superpower.

[@sagelabyrinth8780]

Both Ariana and Taylor are great! I loved eternal sunshine, it was probably ariana's best album. But i gravitate towards Taylor because she makes me feel things that ive never felt in my life. But I'm tired of these stan wars. All artists are great amd have their own lanes. Also, i think people undervalue singers who don't write their own songs because then they wouldn't convey the emotions of the songs to the fullest because they didn't write it from their experience. But so many great vocalists can sing a song emotionally which they didnt write anyway

[@Luna-rl5wu]

The issue I have the most with this discussion is that people put composing and lyricism in the same box labeled as songwriting, when in practice, these things are totally different skills and SHOULD NOT be placed together. Sure, Taylor is a goddamn poet when it comes to lyrics. Is she a better composer than the other girls? I don't really think so. Swifties put these things together and, while I don't think anyone can disagree that she's a very good lyricist, she is in NO WAY a fantastic composer. She is decent. And this goes way back, because music has never been about the lyrics, and it never will be. There are so many vocal-less songs that are just PHENOMENAL, and I'm not even talking about classical music. At the end of the day, what makes a song truly creative is the harmonies, the production, the structure, the instruments used, the modulations... All the musical elements that do not correlate at all to lyrics. Lyrics are literally the least important part of any song. I, for one, am someone who listens to a lot of videogame music, which is mostly vocal-less. The amount of BANGERS videogame composers put out is insane. Pokémon, The King of Fighters, Undertale, Bayonetta, and the list goes on and on and on. Many of these games have some of the most impressive music pieces I've ever heard in my life, and maybe only two of all of these songs have actual vocal parts. The voice is as much an instrument as a guitar, a piano, a violin. It serves to add on to the harmonical space of the track, the lyrics are just an imagery put through it, which is a characteristic that only the voice has. But if you're not a good singer, how are you supposed to deliver nice melodies? The songs that get stuck in our heads are the ones who have the catichiest melodies, not the most impactful lyrics.

[@magical-soap5359]

Right! What is so odd is the way this "voice vs lyrics" debate is totally ignoring MUSIC. As if instrumental music is irrelevant or not popular. Because as you say, there are CLASSIC songs through history without voices or words! I believe video game soundtracks are what first got me interested about listening to music, and many of those soundtracks are purely instrumental. Gorgeous and fun and emotional music too. I guess since the debate is hyper focused on popular female artists who sing or write song lyrics there is no focus outside that bubble?? If you listen to musicians in different music genres you would find out voices or words don't mean everything. For example I really appreciate Patrick Cowley's "space disco" music and the original Kingdom Hearts soundtrack ❤ Both sound great to me but neither are vocally or lyrically engaging compared to Taylor or Beyonce or even Adele. But I think the music is STILL GOOD 👍

[@Luna-rl5wu]

@@magical-soap5359 Yeah, that's probably because the average pop listener is a diva/celebrity enjoyer, not a music enjoyer. In a focused bubble where competition can run more furiously, it makes sense that there are people who argue between the two aspects that are more accessible to them. But even then, the video makes the point really clear: if what they all have in common is their singing, then they should be valued by it. That's how every job works, you can't praise a janitor for being one of the best if his best skill is playing chess. This whole thing is even worse in the k-pop sphere...

[@Saladfork1929]

I think it depends. Taking the Taylor/Ariana example, I can say I connect with Taylor’s work more because of the lyrics & she can sing well-enough that every song is well carried and enjoyable, BUT I’d also say I listen to Ariana more casually and even more frequently because she works in the realm of singing and production mainly. Arianas a phenominal singer who is a solid songwriter so I can enjoy her work more often on one level, while Taylor is a solid singer who is a phenominal songwriter, so I can enjoy hers less often on a different level. Taking that into account, it makes people like Sabrina Carpenter or Mariah Carey (not to say Sabrina’s as good as Mariah, but to credit the queen obviously) who can do both quite proficiently ideal imo, but as long as there’s a decent amount of talent in BOTH realms, then an artist can be enjoyable for me.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

I like how you framed this🙌🏽 definitely food for thought

[@M33PSTER]

Did people just forget that like…bands exist? Composers exist? SYMPHONIES exist? If one person could do it all themselves, we wouldn’t have any sort of collaborative artistry and the landscape of EVERY art would be worse for it. We’re allowed to just be fans of people and shower them with their own accolades without tearing down others. People have different skills and that’s a GOOD thing. Edit: You can really tell how small minded some of these people are when they try to compare singing vs. songwriting in terms of value because since the dawn of time there have been composers and performers and more often than not they’re really only doing either or. For example, operatic composers can compose an opera but they can’t sing it, meanwhile an opera singer trains and has an inherent talent that gives them the ability to bring life to the composer’s work. Personally, as someone who sang for so long and studied music for so long I do think a good singer can stand alone without good writing because hearing a simple melody with no words from a talented singer would still be entertaining to me. They’re better together, yes, they complement each other. But the vilification of singers is ridiculous. If anyone could be a good singer, I’d like to see these people go grab a mic and do it. Songwriting is a talent but what’s the point of writing a song and having no singers to do it justice?

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Thank you for this!!!!

[@buttercup.muffin]

I like a song depending on the vocals and rhythms, never the lyrics. Like I listen to english and korean music (both not my first language), don’t understand a thing but I still enjoy them ♡

[@CamrynSuzanne]

This is an excellent point and another interesting but important perspective. A lot of of us enjoy music and other languages that we don’t fully understand but what we do here are those vocals. We like how they sound and connect with the production.

[@GoblinsAreAGirlsBestFriend]

I really believe it's Swifties that have made this conversation so toxic, because she's such an average singer and at this point they feel the need to justify her excessive success. I'm definitely a fan of some of her songwriting, but not ALL of it. People act like everything she writes is genius. It's not. She only strikes gold less than half the time but at this stage, the rest of it is just fans wanting to decode her parasocially.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Tea🍵🍵 i had some swifties attacking me on twitter bc someone reposted a clip from this video. I didn’t even say anything out right disrespectful about taylor and actually gave her some props. They acted like i talked about their mama or something. You can’t even have a reasonable conversation bc it often turns so toxic with stans

[@Tory7.]

ARIANA GRANDE IS AN ACE! SHE'S THE COMPLETE PACKAGE! LET'S PUT SOME RESPECT ON HER NAME!!!

[@CamrynSuzanne]

!!!!

[@Pharrar]

The more vocally talented the singer the less the industry can control them.

[@47.shivangi22]

Well Ariana is definitely controlled,seeing how her weak streams are getting less impressive everyday

[@trini2DBone134]

​@@47.shivangi22"weak streams" is the 3rd person with the most monthly streams, has over 14 songs with 1+b streams, two #1s recently, album already over 1.6+B streams...need i go on?

[@user-re8vc5dq4g]

Personally, I'm all about the performance. I like the girls who can hold a note while dancing to an 8count to a groovy well-written song: Beyonce. Tinashe. Gaga. Victoria M.

[@bringjoy73]

Being able to play instruments while performing, being able to produce and write is solely a bonus when I’m listening to an artist. That’s like learning they can dance as well in performances while absolutely killing a song vocally. An example you brought up was Chloe, and I would put both Chloe x Halle in that category whenever they perform together as well as separate, like have y’all ever seen Halle playing the electric guitar while hitting those high notes???😭it’s so elevated and is a bonus for the people watching it, imo. But overall, I’m staying for the vocals, if the vocals don’t suit the song or they are a mediocre when I know I can get quality vocals AND people who participate in self-producing and writing, I will😂I can listen to Chloe x Halle, Victoria Monet, Mariah, and even Ariana to listen to. The standards for pop stars 100% include being a good vocalist, that’s why people have writers and producers

[@CamrynSuzanne]

I agree, I think vocals are at the top for me and everything else is a bonus and a cherry on top when we’re discussing people who sing!

[@cinnamongirl6376]

Both are taking it. Why can’t we just enjoy woman’s music and art without making a hole debate about it? I love Taylor, Lana, Whitney and Ariana, there’s no need to make a hole discourse about “who is better” or comparing their own talents like… god forbid woman just make art without being compared. Edit: And yes I can go read a poem, or I could just listen to it as a song like exactly what am I doing wrong here lol.

[@defaultdacat]

I love both Ari and Taylor. Taylor not only writes song for herself, but ghost writes for others and no one knows it. Also, most artist SING and WRITE about old exes, people that hurt them, etc. Whether it be counry, rap, pop, EVEN TRAP music. So i dont understand why people talk crap about Taylor Ari's voice is an instrument in itself. A lot of people can not sing that way. She is amazing. I love her and dont care about her drama. It has nothing to do with her talent. This is so nuianced. If people could separate their emotions from an intelligent debate, they could see both artist are talented in their own way. Ari and taylor need to collaborate and shut everyone up. That would be amazing. And throw mariah in there too with them. Lol

[@CamrynSuzanne]

To that last point, I wonder why they never collaborated? To be fair there’s a lot of artist that I would like to see collaborated that just haven’t and it probably has to do with politics and label stuff. But it would be interesting to see what the fans would do if they did collaborate.

[@jesm1440]

When I'm casually listening to music I don't care who writes it but when I'm getting hooked on a singer it dose matter if they have creative control or somewhat write their own songs

[@Luke-yh8nj]

Yes creative control is different

[@andr3sitomartinez]

Your confusion was so warranted cause we talking about SINGING

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Especially when we are comparing artists who at least have all of that in common😭

[@gigi1970]

I am a huge Taylor Swift fan, but sometimes some of her songs are so beautifully written and yet her voice doesn't convey the same emotions she expresses with her words. It makes me wonder what those songs would sound like if someone like Ariana Grande sang them.I feel like people listen to artists like Taylor when they want a song that expresses a certain type of situation and yet go listen to great vocalists on a daily basis. Also, what is wrong with people? The fact that artists like Madison Beer (amazing vocalist and lyricist) don't get the recognition they deserve makes me too angry. I apologize in advance if I made any mistakes, English is not my first language.

[@CamrynSuzanne]

Thank you for this comment! It conveyed the taylor analysis so well. Great lyrics but vocals are emotionally connecting to the song. Which is one reason why I personally don’t connect much with Taylor’s recent music. However, I really enjoy her old country stuff. A lot of personality and passion in her voice along with great storytelling. Also i want to do a vid discussing madison beer bc her situation is so fascinating to me. Gorgeous girl, can sing etc. but there seems to be a disconnect

[@awholenewworld5796]

@@CamrynSuzanne I feel the same way about Taylor. Her vocal delivery is starting to sound boring and repetitive. Her Speak Now album is fire though....

[@cadiieboii8221]

@@CamrynSuzanne I think with Madison beer it might come from her being an influencer first but like the kind you love to hate and love to see as a bad person, similar to how Megan fox was treated. They have a preconceived notion of her and that informs how they approach her music. I think the same happens to a lot of TikTokers who became artists, they had a whole era where they kinda banked on people hating on them or seeing them as "untalented" but really popular and successful so when they try to pivot to something more serious and talent based people don't take it well unless they are able to fully brush their TikTok days under the rug or unless they are an undeniable talent. Lowkey like the Kardashians or Paris Hilton. Idk if I'm making sense but yea.

[@Silly_illyia]

For me when it comes to Taylor it’s not just her songwriting! I love Taylor’s voice and her vocals. I’ve loved her since I was a little girl because I loved her voice. Her lyrics and the emotional message didn’t matter as much to me back then. And this was long before 1989 came out as well. I also think her new album has really beautifully displayed her voice and how strong it is. And I love Taylor for her. Her connection with her fans, her image as a person and the morals she stands for (though she is definitely not perfect and there are a lot of areas where she could stand to improve), as well as her clear passion and dedication to her profession. When it comes to her songwriting I do think she is incredible. Some of the lyrics she has written and stories she’s conveyed have blown me away and struck deep emotional cords within me. And the argument that she’s not as good of a lyricist as she’s been made out to be because of a few lines on her new album genuinely frustrates me. I feel like people are trying to nitpick this album because of a TS fatigue since she has been so prominent in the spotlight. When there are so many breathtaking well written (and sang) lyrics in this album. And while there are definitely a few iffy ones (looking at you “We declared Charlie Puth should be a bigger artist”) I think they’re far overshadowed by the overall emotional depth and storytelling the entirety of the album conveyed. Regardless I think this discourse is genuinely stupid. Incredible vocals are insanely impressive and incredible songwriting is also insanely impressive! I feel like we should be able to enjoy both and prop up both without tearing the other down. A song is nothing without both of those categories coming together to create art after all! And I think both Taylor and Ari are insanely talented and deserve all the love and support they receive. And they (as well as all other artists in the space) should be able to be celebrated without tearing the other down. 🫶🏻

[@anandratnakushwaha2325]

Lol this girl likes everyone's comment but when you praise Taylor she won't like it Like we can see the pattern lol