Can Plant Identification Apps Be Used for Foraging?

There are numerous smartphone apps that assist with identification of plants. A lot of people have proposed these for use in identification of plants to forage for the table. Just how good are these apps, and is it safe to use them in that way?
The three apps I am testing here are:
play.google.com/store/apps/de...
play.google.com/store/apps/de...
play.google.com/store/apps/de...
0:00 Intro
1:11 Rationale and approach
3:00 Testing
10:23 Summary
12:54 Conclusions

[@AtomicShrimp]

*Books* - The books and field guides I use are listed in the description of this other video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3mziGuQaJdmfJI *IT IS VITALLY IMPORTANT to use a book that is specific to your geographic region.* *A little elaboration on 'certainty'* - because I'm not sure I really made the point very well in the video. When you, the amateur naturalist, are the one comparing features in a reference source against a specimen, you are inevitably beginning from a position of *uncertainty* and *working toward certainty.* The identification process is not just *how you identify the plant,* it's also integrally *how you approach certainty that you got the identification right.* Alternatively, the process falls short of certainty, because you fail along the way, and you *know you aren't certain* - you saw exactly this happen to me with the atypical hogweed specimen in this video. I tried to identify it, was confounded, and ended up uncertain. I think these apps are great. Use them. Get out there and look at amazing nature stuff! I just don't believe they are suited to making a life and death decision on your behalf.

[@udishomer5852]

Not all plants have similar looking ones in the same habitat that are deadly. I would argue that most don't. So in most cases when a good identification app is certain a plant is edible, the chances of it being deadly are zero. Of course it helps to know the few deadly plants around you and avoid anything that is similar looking.

[@AtomicShrimp]

@@udishomer5852 someone relying solely on the app is not going to be able to evaluate whether the answer it gives is right. There's an example of a deadly plant being misidentified as edible right here in this video. 'Mostly right' isn't good enough when the stake is life and death.

[@AtomicShrimp]

Also, you seem to be suggesting that poisonous plants are rare. If you stick out your hand and grab a completely random handful of unknown leaves and eat them, you are more likely to die or get sick than if you were to stick out your hand and grab and eat eat a random unknown mushroom.

[@crystalgryphon]

One of these apps (plantnet) is run by iNaturalist, which is an app I would strongly recommend instead of any of the ones in the video. Plantnet is kind of like a demo version of inaturalist narrowed down to plants specifically, with a lot of features removed. Not only does inaturalist cover all life, but there is also a human element. How it works is you take a photo and upload it, and the same AI in this video will try to ID it for you. BUT, after you upload it, other people can confirm the ID is correct, or they can dispute the ID and suggest what they think is correct. A large percentage of people on the site/app that provide IDs are very experienced and/or professionals, but of course human error is still a thing though, so this isn’t foolproof either, but it’s better than trying to rely on an AI alone.

[@kazooduck]

@@crystalgryphon now I want a part 2!

[@SilverDragonJay]

I like that when Seek couldn't identify the plant with high confidence, it kept it vague, stopping at the last hierarchy it could confidently identify. I feel when you are talking about plants that's probably the safest option so the user doesn't make any assumptions. Its like saying to someone "I don't know what this is, but to avoid you doing something stupid, I'm not even going to tell you what I think it is so _you_ don't even think about eating it.". I don't know, I feel like that's a good way to get around giving undue confidence to the person using the app, if only in a small way. In general, Seek seemed to have preformed the best, probably helped by its precise location service. I might pick it up, not to forage, but just to see what the plants around me are called. Especially since I don't have the botanical guide I bought for a plant ID class with me anymore.

[@ChildrenOfOwls]

I totally agree

[@tyler1901hrhrhr]

Agree. I will note that Seek has displayed a high-confidence (or lowest hierarchy) identification that has been incorrect.

[@liveyourdreammedia]

I think all 3 apps benefit with a message like "cannot determine specimen, refrain from touching or consuming" just to be sure

[@muenstercheese]

I also like how it leaves it at families -- you can finish the process manually, and it'll be more accurate.

[@Dreeev]

​@@liveyourdreammedia Such a message would (wrongly) imply that consuming the plant would be okay when the app is highly confident, but as shown in the video they can be confidently incorrect.

[@alorota9728]

I'm a US based truck driver. Watching your channel has made me curious about different plants and herbs I see at various rest areas. Since I don't have any books on the subject, I use apps like these to try to identify some of them. I make my own observations in a notebook and take detailed pictures. When I'm home, I stop at the library to see if the identification I was given was correct or if I disagree. I find it a fun challenge for myself in general.

[@jwenting]

and as a trucker, you will find a lot of plants outside of their natural habitats. Seeds and stuff get spread by vehicles over long distances. It's the same for people looking for plants next to railroad tracks, always something interesting to find.

[@hicknopunk]

Cool

[@lupita_Arsi]

Wow, awesome, being a trucker sounds nice outside of where i live, in here, they steal cows and run away in they trucks 😅

[@jwenting]

@@lupita_Arsi I considered becoming a trucker, and then I found out that truckers are underpaid, overworked, and where I live at least 90% of them have been replaced with cheap labour from other countries with less restrictions on work hours so they can drive longer hours without rest while getting paid less at the same time.

[@lupita_Arsi]

@@jwenting ooow... That sounds really bad, I'm sorry for that, i hope you get the job you deserve!! Well payed, well fed!

[@kerim.peardon5551]

It would be nice if they had an extra layer of "everything in this plant family is non-toxic" or "this plant is easily confused with a toxic look-alike which is found in your area" (or "which is not found in your area") so you know that something is safe to pick and/or eat, even if the app has the exact name wrong, or that it's best not to chance it. I made an edible plant ID guide for myself based on plants that I had seen (or thought I had seen) in my general area, and if there was a toxic look-alike, like poison hemlock, I put it side by side with the edible plant so I could tell the difference between the two.

[@thenameless3271]

I was thinking the same thing, a big label in the corner or a pop-up saying that the plant is hazardous. Great idea on the guide btw, having the plants beside one another for comparison!

[@coryman125]

That would be a great feature actually

[@CaptainKenway]

That's a great idea actually, though I'd guess they'd want to stick with only pointing out toxic plants for legal reasons. I don't know that a company would ever take the chance with such a broad stroke as saying "everything in this plant family is non-toxic", just in case someone got sick for some reason (perhaps an allergic reaction or something) after eating one on the say so of the app. I imagine in the US at least that'd be the kind of thing people could/would sue over. Pointing out potential dangers seems like a no-lose scenario though.

[@SombreroPharoah]

The 'not found in your area' though can get very loose and dodgy. The UK for example, alot of stuff Mills about down rivers or birds etc. Sweet Cicely and Alexanders are two biggies to eat that defo have divides. Albeit I grew Alexanders and no doubt some escaped up north, and similar Cicely more middle where either wouldn't be usually. (+1 to N/S dividers in the country lol, but both choice plants).

[@amypeggs9606]

I have a mushroom app which is like this. I only use it out of curiosity, I would never eat something based on the app's identification, but it is good at showing when it's similar-looking to something poisonous.

[@BulbasaurLeaves]

My policy is: if it looks like parsley and it's not growing in my herb garden, I don't touch it! The edible members of apiaceae are pretty easy to grow from seed anyway. Certainly not worth risking your life on foraging them

[@magi267]

I have a little story. My aunt 80 years ago worked as a cook's assistant in a rich family's house. The lady of the house asked her to go and pick parsley from the garden. She didn't know what that was but didn't want to admit that so she picked parsnips. The lady thought that my aunt had misheard and went to get the parsley herself. That's how my aunt learned what parsley was...and didn't lose her job.

[@SombreroPharoah]

Many the edibles in the family too, aren't really worth it either. Chervil for ex is just bitter and a bit crud bar once a blue moon and, when most dangerous, young. So often not worth the risk anyway IMHO

[@adriennefloreen]

I agree, I avoid almost all members of that plant family unless I grow them from seed. And there are companies that sell seed for wild edible varieties. Like you can buy wild carrot seed that's certified not to accidentally be hemlock and grow it and know what you are eating, some things are not worth screwing around with.

[@sarahmellinger3335]

@@adriennefloreen Can I get some of the companys names?

[@Astradyne]

​@@magi267 This is a really cute story, and your aunt was extremely clever!

[@bananasdoingthetwist]

I found an app that is great in helping identify plants, unfortunately it's in Czech so not very useful outside of here....but instead of picture id, it asks questions starting with flower colour and month, then shape of leaves and their position and so on....narrowing down the possibilities to a list. Very helpful for a beginner like myself and I still feel like I'm learning! A similar app in English, with more questions and plants would be amazing.

[@TonCZArch]

Jak se ta aplikace jmenuje?

[@bananasdoingthetwist]

@@TonCZArch FlowerID

[@lachlank.8270]

Dichotomous Keys are English science term for these before app exist

[@CTGReviews]

So it's basically Akinator for plants?

[@untermench3502]

I had some friends that went camping and they all decided to live off the land. What they thought was wild Garlic turned out to be Death Camas and they all wound-up in the hospital having their stomachs pumped. I used to be a fan of wild mushrooms until I became very ill one day. I was lucky, it could have been worse. If you are miles from civilization and you become ill, for whatever reason, it may ruin more than your vacation. Use caution.

[@playgroundchooser]

"wild garlic" to "*death camas*"... Well that escalated quickly! 😳

[@RAWSET]

I tried some mushroom ID apps out of curiosity for the flushes i get on my front yard but lost interest real quick. The results didn't even look similar. No surprise their disclosure has to admit there's no guarantee that it wont misidentify deadly mushrooms as edible mushrooms. You only have to eat the wrong thing once.

[@lwoods507]

Wildly off-topic, but I do love how cheerfully brambles intermarry to produce interesting new berries. There's a Victorian graveyard down my way and the very oldest portion of it is overgrown with an impenetrable collection of not-quite-raspberries, not-quite-blackberries, not-quite-dewberries, growing all around a variety of wild apple trees. In autumn the magpies feast, and get rascally drunk on the over-ripe fruits and berries

[@Filbie]

What a lovely comment. Thanks ☺️

[@williamcozart8158]

Those birds are eating the souls of the dead, contained in the nutrients that those plant roots sucked out of the decaying corpses buried in that graveyard, to grow those luscious tart but juicy-sweet berries... OMG have you eaten any?

[@katrijndekeersmaecker1904]

Magpies getting drunk on overipe berries in a victorian graveyard is such a poetic image! That's going to be living in my head rent free from now on.

[@williamcozart8158]

@@katrijndekeersmaecker1904 They're drunk on the ethanol spirits from the fermenting berries and the "spirits" of the dead in the graveyard, which the brambly berry bush roots sucked from the rotting corpses..

[@TheFlashBlur]

This could be quite possibly the most charming comment I’ve ever come across on a KZbin video.

[@arly803]

If the plant identifying app really wanted to be very good at it's job, it would use the image and initial search only as a kicking off point. Ideally after that it could start asking questions and walking you through how to do the rest of the identification with all the other details that plant ID books would have you compare. I have no personal experience with foraging, but this is just what my personal takeaway from this review is.

[@DudeWatIsThis]

This makes a lot of sense!

[@tylerdejong6930]

My friend uses iNat for identifying animals. Apparently after the algorithm spits out what species it might be, it can then be moved to a forum where the community can find the final ID

[@rouaneb6664]

@@tylerdejong6930 Fun fact, Seek is based around iNaturalist - iirc it uploads observations to it, so that they can be used in the same citizen science projects that iNaturalist uses.

[@tylerdejong6930]

@@rouaneb6664 Too cool.

[@TheSilverInfinity]

that is what i was thinking as well. I have some small amount knowledge of how computer vision ai works. basically comparing the image to patterns seen in other images. but the ai doesnt know what its looking at. it knows, the patterns in this image most match the patterns is all these other images. but a human would look at the plant and know, the leaves have this shape so its probably be x, y, or z. and then use other known identifying differences to narrow down the list using actual logic and elimination. if the apps could have the photo id as a jumping off point. basically to flip the user to the relevant digital version of the plant id guide. to read about the proper identification, or possibly making it interactive in a series of questions. and explaining each step. then linking out to known similar plants and gatchas. rather than just saying "so it looks like its probably Y. Maybe X" I think that could be so so much more useful. but of course. that would mean creating and maintaining a digital interactive database of plant identifying pages. And not just shoving millions of photos through an ai training program.

[@BeigeFrequency]

There are a ton of factors I can think of that would be crucial to differentiating between plant species that even seasoned experts wouldn't be able to evaluate through an image/video. What does it smell like? Is the sap milky or clear? What is the stem shape? Round, lenticular, triangular, square, etc? Where is it growing? And so on. Those are super important factors to making a proper identification.

[@Jenner_IIC]

I think these apps could absolutely factor that in, for example if the plant identified is not known to have toxic to touch look-alikes it could give you a list of steps to perform and check to get more accurate identification yourself

[@coryman125]

Firstly- I'm a big fan of the trend of answering the title in the thumbnail. It brings me in not to hear the answer, but to hear an explanation of why it's the answer :) Secondly- I personally like the apps most for identifying plants in a garden or park, say if you wanted to grow a certain flower at your own place but weren't sure what it was. For things that don't really matter, and just give you a starting point in your search, as you said

[@emmared1426]

I haven't used these apps in a while but from what I remember about them my two main issues where 1. The general rule seemed to be that if I couldn't confidentiality identify a plant neither could they 2. A lot of them seemed to assume I was in America, which obviously affects the results. The ones in the video ask for your location so I guess that's been fixed But yeah, there should definitely be a warning, something like "one of the possible matches is highly poisonous"

[@llGuydll]

try inaturalist, identification is used with AI that suggest various species but usually the first suggestion is the correct one, and also other users who know what theya re talking about will come along and either id it if u are usure and only identify to family or genus, they can id it for u, and it needs a majority agreement usually for and ID to become research grade

[@Ollie-fk8ot]

great video!! i took a plant identification-based course at school recently, and our TA’s philosophy on these apps were that they were a good place to start when you’re really stuck on a plant or don’t want to walk through a huge dichotomous key, but that we should always look into the finer details of the plant and use our books for the final identification steps. i also just like using plantnet when ive found something that looked interesting and wanted to quickly ID it in the moment without fretting too much over botanical details - yesterday i found a great looking specimen of oakleaf goosefoot, which i’d never seen before. thank you for promoting safe foraging practices - having spent a lot of time looking at amateur forager forums online, i can say that the amount of people harvesting incorrect plants is alarming. i wish more people would approach it with the level of care you have.

[@Ollie-fk8ot]

@@bigguy7353 the actual content of the course was meant to familiarize us with 1. plant traits and botanical terms and 2. phylogeny and taxonomy. to scaffold us learning about those things and to put them into practice, we also did plant identification and close observation of plant specimens when they related to traits we were learning about.

[@AdelardRen]

I love that your field guide has colored illustrations. In my experience, and opinion, pictures of plants are usually really poor, being too grainy, poorly lit, too far away, and so on. They also don't show all the details. Good illustrations have none of those problems, and are quite charming. The field guide I have for my area uses tiny pictures. I wonder if I can find a better one.

[@AtomicShrimp]

Yeah, I prefer a good illustration. Everything that is there in the picture is there on purpose, because it aids in identification

[@adriennefloreen]

I meant to ask, what are the names of those books? On the page with flowers that look similar to dandelions, if you have those plants in your area try to identify them with the apps. Those dandelion relatives are the plants my app struggles to identify the most, for example it couldn't identify hawksbeard

[@jasborb]

Re the Hogweed, Heracleum sphondylium, Common Hogweed can certainly grow that high, and the leaves, from the brief look, seem within the range of variation to be found. The umbels of Giant Hogweed are usually absurdly large things. Naturally the two species do hybridise, but only very rarely. Hampshire is home to a lot of good botanists who could give you a definite answer.

[@ArtSMRdianne]

I searched the comments for this

[@xephonics]

I think that your statement about the umbels is spot on. The ones shown were much lesser packed with flowers.

[@missharry5727]

In my experience Giant hogweed is a lot more butch than even a tall common hogweed. I came across one at Farley Mount near Winchester a few weeks ago. It was obviously less than fully grown being only about 6 feet tall but had enormous leaves, covered a lot of ground, and the main stem was at least 3 inches thick topped with a bud the size of a grapefruit.

[@AtomicShrimp]

I might have to get up there just to take a look at it and get some library footage

[@missharry5727]

@@AtomicShrimp if you walk along the lower of the two paths at the top, past the area where the greater butterflies grow and along the edge of the wildflower meadow it was on the left . There's always the risk that someone will have had it removed. It was 19 June I saw it. I do have a good photo but unfortunately my main email isn't working at the moment or I could send it to you

[@aliencafe]

Seek is what got me interested in foraging, but it was because I saw the limitations the app had and decided I didn't want to rely on technology when I'm out and about. It was really interesting to see how it matches up with other popular foraging apps!

[@MD-ch3sw]

My favourite bit is that the B roll is Bee roll. You’re awesome Atomic Shrimp!

[@Kimthulu]

My favorite thing about you and your channel is how successful you are without pigeonholing yourself into one type of content. It's what I aspire to for my channel.

[@mrcheesemunch]

I wish we got taught all this stuff in school, it would be awesome to go outside and learn some stuff that could be genuinely useful and even life saving at times. Knowledge every person should have, like what plants can be made in to a poultice or what mushrooms are edible if you're lost in the wilderness.

[@Acheron666]

All they teach in school now is how to use peoples pronouns, gender confusion and the field trips nowadays are to drag shows. What a time to be alive. 🤮

[@demoniack81]

@Hypothermic Dysrhythmia I'd go even further and say don't bother eating at all if you're lost in the wilderness. I mean if you come across a giant patch of blackberries or whatever else you can easily and confidently identify sure, have a feast. But otherwise it's a much safer bet to just press on and continue walking yourself out of trouble. Might be different if you're in bumfuck wyoming, but here in Europe there's literally no reason to risk it. You can easily last days without eating with no real consequences, so move towards lower ground, follow the first stream you find, and eventually you'll reach a creek and then a river and rivers always take you to a city or a road bridge eventually. Europe is dense enough that I bet from 90% of the territory you can reach a town within a day by just following water. Hell, here in Northern Italy in a lot of places in the ""wilderness"" such as up a mountaintop at 3000m you can still hear the engines from the roads below. You don't really appreciate just how obnoxiously loud combustion engines really are until you realize you're 15km up the side of a mountain and you can still hear the fucking things.

[@AtomicShrimp]

Agree. Drink water if you need to; ideally boiled water, but eating random unfamiliar stuff is more likely to kill you than starvation. Eat fruit and nuts if you know very certainly and exactly what they are. I think there's a potential dichotomy between 'walk yourself to civilisation' vs 'stay with the vehicle and await rescue' that possibly depends on a number of different factors and I am not qualified to address it.

[@DualKeys]

My mother found some wild chanterelle mushrooms a while back and was worried that she might be wrong in her identification. I researched chanterelles, what their characteristics are, where they’re found, what they’re sometimes confused with, etc., and became certain that they were in fact what my mom had found. I can’t imagine trusting that entire process to a photo on an app. I cooked some up and they were delicious. 😋

[@adrianaslund8605]

Chanterelles are luckily a very recognizable mushroom.

[@jasperfaren371]

Hi Mike, this is probably a strange place to express my appreciation, but thank you for the work that you do! I always had a love for ecology (and thrifty cooking), and your foraging/botany videos were a part of my inspiration to change direction several years into my career. Funnily enough, I worked in IT management too, but your knowledge and love of nature helped me reconsider my goals. I'm now studying socio-environmental change and have never been happier. Wish you the best!

[@mennoltvanalten7260]

As a person studying in the field of data science, I think your final points of it just not being good enough is correct. I myself mostly trust these kinds of AI applications in settings where I can identify whether a result was good or bad, then tweak the system. For example when looking up a website, I can type different stuff into google until I get the responses I am looking for, and if I get the wrong stuff I usually notice quickly. Because medical information (and information about foraging) is so important to get right in one go, these systems need very, very high performance to be worth it. We did a project about identifying diabetes once and every group concluded their system was not good enough for practical use because there were maybe 70% to 90% as good as existing systems which is not worth it because it costs lives.

[@AtomicShrimp]

Yeah, 'mostly right' in, say, a sorting process where the results can be further checked and refined with no detriment - that's absolutely fine and probably very useful. 'Mostly right' in a situation where a single wrong answer can be immediately catastrophic, is just not good enough.

[@mennoltvanalten7260]

@@AtomicShrimp Exactly

[@somethinginnocuousindahouse]

I really appreciate that your thumbnails answer the question posed in the title of your video. Although it is the opposite of clickbait, it is guaranteed to get me to click.

[@ginaC53]

I feel this video addresses the major issues with researching superficially using the internet in general terms.

[@AtomicShrimp]

I think it's the double edged sword aspect of the internet - on the one hand, it's an amazing resource; on the other hand, it can tend to foster the notion that all difficult things can be made easy.

[@angrypotyeto9656]

I always wondered that, but I always assumed it was risky haha

[@Supercalifrigic]

I'd love to see a similar experiment with ShroomID and related mushroom identification apps.

[@edmundblackaddercoc8522]

Me too...asking for a friend🤣

[@Filbie]

As an amateur mycologist, I would strongly advise against the use of apps like that for mushroom ID. The physical appearance of mushrooms can be extremely variable and it’s not wise to rely solely on that. Barring microscopic analysis, smell, texture, substrate and even reactions with chemicals like potassium hydroxide are vital to proper identification.

[@Gr3nadgr3gory]

With mushrooms its generally safer to stick to easily identified species like white puffball. Start looking into other species and they almost all have toxic lookalikes.

[@Debbiebabe69]

The only mushrooms EVER worth picking are the hallucinogenic 'magic' ones - as you cant just buy them in the shop, and there are plenty of experts at identifying them, usually passed on through friends and generations. For all other mushrooms, just buy them from the shop, they are cheap as anything and not worth risking DEATH for. And NEVER take or buy mushrooms off random people you dont know. I have heard of many incidents at festival where so called 'professional mycologists' sell 'magic' mushrooms to punters, and upon analysis they turn out to be death cap or something similar...........

[@Gr3nadgr3gory]

@@Debbiebabe69 agreed. If you're gonna risk either never do so on an empty stomach and test with a very small piece first, it's nor risk free, but you've got a much lower chance of hitting the LD50 of toxic mushrooms when you test a small sample, not even enough to microdose. Plus there's always a taste difference.

[@futball51]

I am a “scam baiting only” viewer but I’m this caught my eye and now I think I’m going to watch the whole back catalogue

[@graealex]

The specialty-apps would do themselves a favor if possible or definitive matches are poisonous (to eat and/or touch) would be immediately accompanied by warning symbols right at the first screen. That might avoid people touching them like you have shown in one of the photos in the app.

[@soupalex]

the person touching the plant in that photo will have done so before receiving an identification from the app, so a pop-up after the fact wouldn't have helped them much.

[@graealex]

@@soupalex Can I please borrow your crystal ball that seems capable of reliably predicting what people are going to do exactly when using an app?

[@soupalex]

@@graealex you could just give the warning when switching to camera mode ("please avoid touching any unidentified plants, as they may be poisonous"), and perhaps remove it if no poisonous identifications are made above a certain threshold of confidence. also, no need to get snitty. it doesn't take a crystal ball to see that, for the person whose hand was on the plant at the moment the picture was taken (necessarily _before_ an identification could have been delivered by the app), a warning popping up to tell them _not to touch_ would just be shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

[@graealex]

@@soupalex I personally would be a lot more cautious if my phone displayed a warning symbol the moment it detected a poisonous plant in the viewfinder. You are just assuming that the person in question immediately grabbed the plant, when in reality it could have been very different. If anything, maybe the person grabbed the plant because the app did NOT show any warnings? And yes, I get snitty when people just assume stuff. The person that made the photo was already using a plant-identification app, which in my book means they thought about the ability to identify a plant, and probably also about the possibility of it being poisonous.

[@soupalex]

@@graealex i assumed nothing; you specifically identified a photograph used by one of the apps in the video that _does not provide "live" identification_ (seek does, the others do not-certainly not plantnet, which was the source of the photo in question). i fail to see how you think that the person in that photo could have been warned against touching a potentially poisonous plant by a message delivered _after_ making an identification. i agree that this person's apparent interest in plant identification could have primed them to be more cautious of handling unidentified plants (although, equally, the fact that they are using a plant identification app might suggest someone who is a total _novice_ in identification), and a warning appearing "the moment [the app] detected a poisonous plant in the viewfinder" would be a wonderful thing to have… but the point remains that a warning such as you describe in your original comment (absent of any suggestion that all apps should use seek's "live" identification method), _after_ identification, would have been useless in the example you then went on to single out (i.e., someone touching a plant to obtain a clearer photograph for an app that can only provide identification _after_ a photograph has been taken). we've already established that the warning _could_ work if it was delivered immediately as soon as a hazardous plant entered the viewfinder(!), but this is not the scenario described in your original comment.

[@StephanieLeighG]

I’ve only used a plant identification app once, and it walked me through the identification step by step, asking questions to narrow down the possibilities until it arrived at an answer. It also asked for a picture of the plant and posted it somewhere for people to comment on what they thought it was. I don’t think it used AI at all. That was ages ago, and I don’t remember what the app was called. I’m sure apps like that one are a lot more useful for someone who actually wants to learn, rather than just relying on AI. I hope there are still apps like that available. I didn’t use it to forage, and if I wanted edible plants and some sunshine, I’d rather learn to be a better gardener instead.

[@chri-k]

That sounds way more useful. How is a picture recognition AI supposed to distinguish garlic from onion, for example?

[@Failzz8]

@@chri-k No doubt it'll get there, but definitely needs a few more years.

[@cryo7847]

An app that does both (well) would be incredible. Someday.

[@stoppropaganda2573]

Just this past weekend, my brother and I went to visit our mother in her adult care home and I pointed out that the property was surrounded by Honey Suckle flowers and my brother wanted to use the Google app to confirm. Well the plants were identified with high confidence as Datura, a highly toxic plant and source of scopolamine. I think the last thing a senior care home needs is a constant source of scopolamine, which is a strong hallucinogenic among other nasty properties! Thankfully geographically this plant could not occur in the wild or as an ornamental. Apps are not quite there yet!

[@bluefox5331]

Datura stramonium can also be a common weed in agriculture. There's some growing here after they renovated the blocks of flats and brought in soil after than, probably from fields. A lot of field weeds sprung up including well, datura- the flowers, leaves and fruits match up so I'm pretty confident it is that. Honeysuckle looks quite different from what I see, the leaves don't have any cuts in them? Or is that a different honeysuckle you're talking about?

[@tylisirn]

@@bluefox5331 Few years back we had commercial frozen vegetable mix contaminated with datura seed pods over here that had slipped through quality control. Several people were hospitalized. The origin was tracked to a batch of beans from Spain.

[@IamsTokiWartooth]

I just cant imagine an ape or person for that matter confusing the two plants, they are nothing alike

[@jacobesterson]

​@@tylisirn My brother (and his entire friend group) drank Datura tea once because some hippy convinced them that it was just "free hallucinogens maaan." Apparently it would go like this: You're walking around, everything seems normal, and then suddenly you realise that the friend you've been talking to for the last hour is actually a lamp. This lasted the entire day, occasionally shifting between lucidity and hallucinations so convincing that they were indistinguishable from reality. One of his friends shat on the roof, but none of them were ever hospitalised.

[@soupalex]

@@jacobesterson man, the roof is one of the last places you want to have a big steaming turd (after "your bed", and "your downstairs neighbour's roof, just outside your window")

[@LovelyRuthie]

I have an iPhone & use the app "Picture It" - I originally trialled it & ended up purchasing it as it's been invaluable to me as an amateur gardener trying to work out which plants coming up the garden are the ones I intended to be there or are invasive weeds, before they get to the invasive stage. It's also made forest walks more interesting. But no, I wouldn't rely on it for foraging - this app also makes errors & just isn't worth taking a risk with.

[@exmanitor]

That B roll though! I've been looking forward to this video, and it was great! On another note, I have a video idea for you: Molecular Gastronomy! I believe this would work well for your channel, being "sciency" cooking. Specifically, I would love to see you working with xanthan gum. One can make many exciting products with this (see chefsteps' jus gras, for instance). I imagine that you could come up with an interesting application for xanthan gum (and other molecular gastronomy techniques/ingredients)! I believe I have watched most of your videos without seeing this, but I'm sorry if you've done it already and I've missed it. Love your channel!

[@spaceranger145]

Foraging aside, I'm amazed by the accuracy of this software. A.I. and computer vision has grown so much over the past decade. I'm excited to see how this kind of software will evolve as time passes, datasets grow and processors further adapt to meet the requirements of artificial intelligence.

[@ayathedoggo]

This was really interesting! I'm personally not foraging or even an outside person but you have an interesting take on the topic. Thanks, Mr. Shrimp.

[@defeatedskeptic311]

I am a graduate student in machine learning and the critiques you raise of these applications are spot on. There are sub-areas of machine learning that researchers are working in to correct these issues you mention: robustness, safety and explainability. Robustness is concerned with ensuring performance is consistent, safety addresses concerns such as mis-identification and explainability is about finding ways for our abstract mathematical models to 'explain' how they reach their conclusions/decisions. I certainly would not stake my life on the decisions any visual ML tasks perform due to the complexity involved. In fact, I was impressed at how well these apps did. Thanks for the informative videos.

[@RealGestumblindi]

It seems to me that Seek may be the "best" of the three apps, despite its mistakes, as it's the most conservative/cautious... or one could say "honest" one. If it's not sure of the species, it's not trying to narrow it down forcibly.

[@strophariacaerulea]

Very good advice! I also forage the old-fashioned way and only eat what I know 100%, but as a tech guy I'm quite impressed by how good the neural nets have become. So I also tested a couple of apps (ios) and mostly use the results as starting points for getting to know new plants. I like Seek for its live detection functionality and for also working for animals. FloraIncognita does a very good job, but only for plants and it needs an internet connection. False classifications still happen on all apps, though, and one hemlock classified as a wild carrot can be enough to kill you. Another possibly dangerous feat: If Seek is "unsure" and stays at family level for a while, I've noticed that if you "force it" and point the camera at the plant for long enough, it sometimes randomly comes up with a wrong species level detection that often is not even native to where I live.

[@andreabrucculeri1025]

This channel is so much fun and I love watching it grow. Looking forward to congratulating you on 1 million subs

[@stonium69]

I love this thumbnail. It both answers the question and starts to answer the why. Very anti-clickbait.

[@Wingpad]

Thank you so much for making this video. I've been using Seek (per the recommendation of a local naturalist) for years, and it's been an interesting experience. It was good to hear someone else's experience with it, especially someone with such a detailed perspective such as yours!

[@HarryLoveTV]

Thank you for this. your vids have been a friendly reminder that I’ve wanted to take up foraging + hiking for a while and I had been wondering where to start. This is a very obvious place

[@CTCTraining1]

Very interesting comparison and salient warning. Perhaps a similar exercise later in the season on identifying fungi might be worthwhile. Thx and keep up the great work 😀👍

[@lisanewcar4436]

Thank you so much for being upfront with us about your possible biases and preconceptions in your videos. It's easier to trust someone's opinion when they're transparently honest on the thoughts behind their reasoning.

[@Meichannel22]

Pretty comprehensive and interesting video! I'm just going to leave this bit of information here, in case someone finds it useful: When using pl@ntnet, after taking a photo and choosing what it's framing (flowers, leaves, etc...), as soon as the list of possible matches pops up, you can press the back button to open up a menu. This menu allows you to choose/take other pictures of the same plant, which helps the app in identifying what it's looking at. For example, you can take a picture of the flowers, one of the leaves, and one of the bark (if it's a tree), and this will give you a more accurate answer than simply using a single picture. Not sure whether this is possible with Google Lens or Seek as well.

[@bearhugzfam649]

Ooh, I like this! I'm also a forager, have been since I was little, and I do enjoy using Seek specifically because often I'll spot a new plant and have no idea what it is, and I find Seek is a fun tool to narrow it down so I can save a picture and look it up when I get home. One of the things I do like about Seek specifically though is the fact that if it's not sure what it is, it doesn't tend to guess. I definitely wouldn't bet my life on its results, it's just one preliminary tool in the arsenal and definitely not a voice of authority, but I really respect the way it narrows things down and demands a full view of the plant before it's confident enough to tell you what it is.

[@vidhoard]

Wishful thinking would probably be better defined as "confirmation bias" which is a term in psychology that matches what I think you're trying to describe. Very interesting video, I love when you combine your tech interests with your foraging skills!

[@AtomicShrimp]

Wishful thinking and confirmation bias are related in that they are both cognitive biases, but confirmation bias often describes something that happens without conscious processes driving it. Wishful thinking is often driven by the emotional process of desiring a particular answer.

[@TheTomBobson]

That intro was absolutely brilliant, bravo!

[@ArtSMRdianne]

I love your channel because of the uniqueness and variety in information that my brain can suck up when it won't stop. Absorbing new info helps me to focus on one thing and finally stop my brain. I'm always trying to watch all ads to support you, I hope it reaches you and not just yt. Thank you for your channel and for having such a curious mind too!

[@leegosling]

Keys are the key… a lens is helpful too.

[@JimboDoomface]

I'd never thought that anyone would rely on the apps alone. I've started really getting into foraging in the last few years, incidentally largely due to your videos- first of which i saw was scambaiting! I've got a few good books, I find plants that are in season in the books and go out with the goal of finding a few- I've recently discovered you can google lens to get a suggestion of an I.D. which i can then go back and use the books to see if it was right, and that way I've learned a bit more than if I'd only gone out looking for three or four plants at a time, because usually I can't find all the plants I'm looking for in one trip. I'll definitely be getting one of the more dedicated apps after watching this- Seek or Naturalist seem to be the best ones. I love the taxonomy thing the seek app does, I really like learning about the latin names and classifications of organisms, it's applicable beyond simply knowing the proper names for things, it gives you clues about how others in the same family behave- also quite often the latin names are interesting, informative or have a fun bit of etymological history.

[@tonkysue207]

Love this channel,diverse,never boring .

[@mirkoninhopsalot]

Thank you. I love your style and reasoned approach to your content. Please keep up the good work.

[@andyparkinson1996]

I used to have a similar app for identifying natures more ‘potent’ plants, and it worked pretty well, however it was completely lost on mushrooms even tho it was advertised as being able to identify several hundred types

[@audeforcione-lambert4293]

Yeah, mushrooms can be pretty hard to differentiate by appearance alone. In many cases, to be certain of your identification, you have to consider habitat, possible symbiotic trees, spore color, odor, reaction to bruising, etc.

[@brandon9172]

@@audeforcione-lambert4293 Its even worse considering that a lot of mushrooms have yet to be classified. There's so many nameless species. And many ID books and websites use outdated information, a lot of mushrooms in America for example were incorrectly identified as similar looking european species. (Saffron milk caps for example)

[@someoneinthecrowd4313]

Ayo, potent? 🤨

[@centralintelligenceagency8811]

1:11 bee-roll hehe

[@Flopster101]

I didn't think I'd like this kind of topic but your voice and narration in general are just so captivating

[@leahparker9033]

I love that you made the answer to the title of the video abundantly plain in the thumbnail. I watched the video to see how AI identifies plants. My friend gave a talk to some schoolkids about mushrooms and when one of the kids asked, "So can we go out and eat these mushrooms now?" my friend said, "Nooooooo!!!!!"

[@Skiltra]

image recognition always has an incorrect aspect to it even in general, so no matter the app you should realize then it also requires human intuition. i use image recognition a lot although not really for plants and the way each recognition software/service find matches is different as AI need to interpret the image into something it understands

[@maestrodiogenesbillionaire870]

I love me some wild Hemlock

[@piotrgebocki6444]

I just got this video randomly recommended, it's awesome! very detailed and it was enjoyable even tho I am not into plant world. I would say it's top notch, deserved sub from me and I will for sure watch some videos from time to time

[@bristolrovers27]

Excellent video, you are rightfully cautious and it needs to be said often.

[@ColonelSandersLite]

I expect that this sort of app would be great to have if you're contemplating foraging in a survival situation. All you would have to do is close the app and use the phone part of your phone.

[@AtomicShrimp]

Exactly so. Trying to use these apps in a survival situation is like smashing your phone and using the battery to start a campfire. Call for rescue.

[@MsAnpassad]

Personally, I prefer plant key books. They don't have pictures, you look at specific traits (how many petals etc) of the plant and the book narrows it down until you have the right one.

[@DeltaDemon1]

I often click on your videos even if the subject does not interest me because you give the answer in the thumbnail which is great. Keep that up!

[@Zappyguy111]

Very well rounded review and conclusion. Good to know I have another handy tool in my back pocket for weekend bush walks.

[@MsTokyoflower]

Would love to see this kind of video for mushroom apps if there are any! I know there's a scholar who's trying to make one in my country, I think in the hope of it will make more people forage local mushrooms instead of buying international ones.

[@ScrappyCoCo0]

"A scholar who's trying to make one in my country" lol

[@SombreroPharoah]

So many mushrooms can be grown on t-rolls, old newspapers made soggy, crud from the garden etc. Being out 'dustbin men of nature'. It amazes me more people don't grow more of the species local to each of us. Intriguing nerdy bit too, Oyster mushrooms will eat crude oil, and then be edible later too. So dang cool. (albeit don't grow ya shrooms on toxic stuff just incase, we've not studied enough types o. Enough substrates. But it could solve so many problems! Oil spills with human hair mats and shroomies, in looking at you)

[@vinnytube1001]

I was just looking at this recently, and I came across a paper that said the *best* performing plant ID app only had about an 80% accuracy. And that was the best one... it's all downhill from there. I'm not sure I'd trust an app that's right even 98% of the time for foraging. I think I'd want 99.9 or better.

[@eloujtimereaver4504]

100% confidence is in all cases delusion. I think a valuable thing in such an app is for it be able to clarify how dangerous its inability to identify something is. For instance, when Seek gives the family but not the species, it would be nice for it to be like, I am 80% sure it is this family, which has some members that are dangerous to touch, such as in the case of some hogweeds.

[@ragnkja]

The rule for foraging is “when in doubt, leave it out.”

[@eloujtimereaver4504]

@@ragnkja Determining where the line of 'in doubt' lies, is the hard part.

[@ragnkja]

@@eloujtimereaver4504 “Would I bet my life and/or the lives of my loved ones on it?” While I’m by no means an expert foragers, I’ve got a few plants and mushrooms that I know I can’t mix up with anything poisonous that grows where I live, but I’ve also got some (one fine mushroom in particular) that I’m not confident enough about to pick unless I can get someone who knows that species better (such as my Mum) to check it for me.

[@vinnytube1001]

@@eloujtimereaver4504 True even for human-based identification. As Atomic Shrimp said, many times he's walked away when having slight lack of confidence. As an aside, one of the most eye-opening and gut-wrenching (hah) articles I read was from a mushroom forager with decades of experience who became complacent with his ability and accidentally fried up a destroying angel for his breakfast one day. He survived with one kidney destroyed and another almost destroyed. The papers I'm talking about measured *accuracy* and not confidence specifically. It's possible for a machine learning algorithm, or a person, to be *confidently incorrect*. These were scientific papers that sampled the apps and had botanists on staff to provide proper, accurate identification. If app-based identification could get to 99.99% accuracy, if you identified one plant per day, you'd have 1 mistake in 30 years. Of course that 1 mistake could still cause an early death. I've been messing with Seek as well, and I like the fact that it generally won't go past certain levels of identification when it has low confidence. This is much better than providing a low-confidence result, and you can see how the commercial, ad-supported apps are hungry to give any answer, as this will increase the chance that they will be used. Seek, being institutionally-backed, doesn't seem pinned down by the financial revenue problem. In a foraging context, this apps are probably a decade away from being remotely usable in a standalone fashion. I think when paired with a guide book and also a foraging guide with discussion of look-alikes, and proper skepticism of your own identification ability, it could be okay. It is at least another data point in the decision process.

[@stonest123]

words cannot describe how much i enjoy these videos

[@justbuns6404]

I tried the seek app and it got some things wrong in my garden. But I also learned new plant names. When I pointed it at my rabbit, the app thought it was a "new world camelid" and it totally made my day.

[@proloycodes]

that's so cute omg

[@strangelyunusualify]

Great video! I personally find these apps quite bothersome, especially among facebook groups based around gardening and foraging, it can be frustrating when someone asks for a plant ID and someone comes along with such a confident wrong identification because their Plantnet app said so and they often refuse to be educated further. Have seen people giving IDs for things like vetch and hemlock as common garden peas and parsley. Like you say, the apps are good for giving a point in the right direction towards a positive ID but don't encourage people to look at the finer details which help with differentiation, nor do they really encourage people to expand their deeper knowledge so they can confidently identify things with their own comprehension. A helpful tool at times, but people are starting to rely on them all too heavily

[@simonk7722]

Flora Incognita is a pretty good ID app. It bases it's identification on separate pictures of plant organs at the same time, forcing you to give attention to them. So to successfully (above 90% certainty) ID a species you usually need at least 3 pictures of it's different parts

[@solar0wind]

Yeah, that's the one I use. It's very good.

[@mr_clean575]

I love your reasonableness in evaluating something new, trying to avoid pre-conceived notions as much as possible

[@Claidheambmor]

This is such a great idea for one of your videos. Please don't stop. :)

[@dumbage]

i’ve always wondered this

[@mjsvitek]

These apps are good if you see something in your neighborhood and are like "Ooh! I want THAT in my garden!" so you whip out your phone, see what it thinks it is, and go out and buy it. Worst case scenario, you plant something that looks similar enough that you won't notice anyways.

[@wackyflappybob]

I loved the "bee" roll footag you put on for the little disclaimer. Great videos as always 👍

[@lewis838]

I'm actually impressed that some of the apps did as well as they did, great video Shrimp

[@christineb8148]

I feel like these apps are similar to the difference in learning a new area via using only GPS to get from point a to point b vs looking at a map, looking at the geographical features, bridges, tunnels, possible routes etc. Yes, GPS fills a need but you are severely limiting your knowledge by solely depending upon it. That said, PictureThis has been a good tool in getting my research headed in the right direction.

[@jadedesigns6171]

And the GPS might lead you into a deadly ambush

[@christineb8148]

@@jadedesigns6171 EXACTLY! Or rising flood waters! Or a musk ox stampede!

[@demoniack81]

I have to admit that ever since getting a car with integrated satnav I've been using it a lot, and I hate that I don't review the route it's making me take. A couple times it made me take an absolutely demented route through narrow roads to supposedly save me a couple minutes, without taking into account that said roads are actually slower. This would never happen when looking up a map by yourself.

[@invictus_delta]

so.. what i gather from this video is that hemlock water-dropwort is... safe? no wait, deadly, definitely deadly

[@AGenericFool]

Loved the vid Also the academic term for wishful thinking is "confirmatian bias" and a logical fallacy that can be often observed

[@karen4you]

So enlightening. Really appreciate your comparing apps to help us be informed.

[@fallingdream]

personally I think if you're uncertain enough of an ID that you're turning to an app, you shouldn't eat it. They're great for getting an idea of what's in your landscape and I do use them for general curiosity, but before you eat something you need to definitively rule out poison lookalikes yourself

[@mrcmoes]

I tried a few of these apps, went through my garden and it got just about everything wrong. Closest was it knew what a bean plant is but not the type of bean (said kidney, was a black bean plant, to be fair they all look kinda the same).

[@mangajag]

this all brings me back to a dream of illustrating flower books ~ Loved learning about flowers growing up

[@beckaliz]

Great video, thank you! I think it is good to have a first step in where to look, especially keeping in mind that more research is required to make sure something is safe to touch/eat.

[@BeheadedKamikaze]

Great video Mr Shrimp! Do any of the apps have a "feedback" feature where you can tell it that it's misidentified a species, and perhaps submit the correct one, or add a new photo for an existing entry?

[@darkforestwarriors]

you might like iNaturalist, it's somewhat similar to what you're suggesting

[@solar0wind]

In Flora Incognita you can change the identification to the correct one by clicking on the pencil symbol. However, I'm not sure whether that has any effect on the algorithm. But since the app is developed by German universities for research purposes, I'm pretty sure you could send them an e-mail. I think Flora Incognita is one of the best apps and it's funded by German tax payers, so it will always stay free of charge.

[@starstenaal527]

You are probably already flooded with recommendations of various identification apps, nonetheless I think giving "Flora Incognita" from University of Ilmenau a chance could be worth it. From my experience, it's the most reliable one out there. It takes in multiple images of the plant, each focusing on on a different aspect (e. g.: leaves, fruits, blossoms, stem) , which allows it to reach a much higher certainty over apps that only make use of one single frame. I think it's primarily focused on plants from Germany, but it should work decent enough in the UK aswell.

[@ganchroi]

Am I the only person who's just really enjoying all of the beautiful illustrations in your identification books?

[@phyl2379]

This was pretty interesting would love to see more videos like this.

[@nickmerchant4588]

I’ve tried the Seek app on hemlocks and consistently got “carrot family” which is true but misleading if you don’t realize how deadly some of these carrot family members are.

[@annalang5687]

I tested a few apps on my garden plants and some matches were a huge miss. I like them for random field flowers but I would not trust them for foraging.

[@ChimpChumpable]

Absorbing related information and finding things in context really makes guide books useful. I could never really articulate that to friends of mine who would say things like "Just use this app!". Also your point about having a diagnostic mindset (ie. trying to find differences in similar looking species) which works in the book and not the app is very spot on.

[@ghostladydarkling3250]

Mr. Shrimp, thank you so much for this video. I love being out in the woods, forest, looking at plants and foraging, everything I know has been handed down from Mother to daughter for generations, even with that I have made a few mistakes, the most serious was being misinformed about if Jack in the Pulpit ( Indian Turnip) tubers where ok to eat, they are, but only after cooking, thankfully I only put a small piece in my mouth. I love your videos.

[@elsik2332]

I had one of these apps to play with when I started getting into houseplants, and let me tell you, they are just so confidently wrong sometimes.... Question - do you have recommendations of good all-around UK plant species identification books, preferably by family, like you're showing in your videos? Perhaps budget friendly too, if possible?

[@AtomicShrimp]

The books I have are listed in the description of this earlier video in the series: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3mziGuQaJdmfJI Some of them are out of print now, but still available secondhand - but any pocket field guide to plants in your locality is probably going to be OK

[@bookedsam]

From watching many of your foraging videos: I would assume not as plant identification can become a life or death situation with the only difference being something like a couple purple spots on the stem *edit* I just want to add, incorrect identification isn't always bad. If it mistook a poisonous plant for another similar poisonous plant that would be fine, as long as its obvious you shouldn't eat it or potentially not make contact with it.

[@buggy-boy]

the app might mistake a poisonous plant with a non-poisonous plant though for instance violets, if the purple flowers aren't there (if it's not the right time of year) then they look a lot like some poisonous plants

[@ZombieTeube]

That was very interesting and well edited/ pacedn thanks for your video !

[@anthonycampos7417]

I hope you do indeed continue using the apps and provide them feedback and correction when needed thus bolstering the AI and helping the next swath of users. Great video

[@outputcoupler7819]

I think part of the reason people are too trusting of these sorts of apps is that many people mostly think about things on a surface level. I always think about this as the "toaster vs. freezer" problem. If you ask a person what happens when you try to use a toaster inside the freezer, you'll find that some people will give incorrect answers, or even declare the question unanswerable. To some people, a toaster is a thing that toasts things by getting them hot, and a freezer is a thing that freezes things by getting them cold. So either they cancel out, or the question is unanswerable, right? To a person with this kind of surface level understanding, an app that identifies plants is just a thing which tells you what plant you're looking at. They feed it a plant picture, it gives them the plant name just like their freezer freezes everything that you put inside it. And without digging any deeper into it, you have no reason to doubt that either device would fail under normal circumstances. But if you think about how these things work, then it's obvious that toasters work fine inside freezers, and an AI based picture identification tool is going to have major accuracy issues.

[@proloycodes]

i mean, if the freezer freezes as fast as toasters heat...they would be correct, so technically the answer is "that depends", not "yeah it WILL work fine"

[@sion1138]

You say you're not a young child anymore, but we all know you're a small boy.

[@SheyD78]

I feel like the best source of information with regard to plant identification will always be someone who already knows what's what. Passing on that sort of personal knowledge is such an important thing.

[@spudhead169]

Very reasonable and objective evaluation in my opinion.