Can Two Bad Grades Hold You Back from Med School? | Application Renovation (S2 E3)

Today I'm talking with a nontraditional premed who was unsuccessful in her last application cycle. She thinks her low science GPA was the reason she didn't get any interviews. Really, her GPA would've been decent without two bad grades in calculus and pre-calc. Listen in to hear all my advice as I review her app!
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Our student this week applied to med school last year with a down-trending GPA. She is a nontrad who lacked guidance on her premed path. She failed calculus, then only passed pre-calc with a D. In the rest of her prereqs, she got A's and B's. She didn't get any interviews in her first application cycle.
Here are some of the issues we discuss:
• Why did her AMCAS application take so long to get processed (over a month)?
• How can you improve your written description for Institutional Actions (like hers for academic probation)?
• Her Science GPA doesn't look great: Her postbac BCPM GPA is 2.93, her cumulative BCPM GPA is 3.06, and her graduate BCPM GPA is 3.00. Her cumulative undergraduate GPA is not nearly as low, however, at a 3.55.
• What counts as "passing" in your medical school prereqs? On your med school application, "passing" is different from the normal definition we think of.
• For DO schools, calculus would not be counted in your science GPA. So with a couple of low math grades like this, it becomes especially prudent to give DO schools another look.
• Does she need to retake her 509 MCAT (with a 124 Bio subsection score)? She was surprised by my answer!
• Does scribing count as shadowing? How should you write about it in your application?
• How can you write your activity descriptions so that the admissions committees know you actually got CLINICAL experience? And what are the risks of marking activities as "clinical experience" if they aren't truly clinical in nature?
• Why should you use the term "physicians" rather than "practitioners" or "providers" in your application?
• What should you list as the "end date" for extracurricular activities that you're still involved with at the time of your application?
• In your personal statement, how should you balance between storytelling and reflecting about what those experiences meant to you?
• Where do students commonly run into problems when writing about their shadowing experiences in their personal statement?
• We also looked at her school list, which included a fair amount of competitive schools and public out-of-state schools. I give her some advice on how to adjust that list when reapplying.
• How should you document your research publications in your medical school application?
• Is a Special Master's Program (SMP) worth it just to fix a science GPA that's being dragged down by two classes?
For more episodes of Application Renovation, check out the playlist at applicationreno....

[@yza4896]

just let everyone know that I had F D C-, sub 3.0 gap for my freshman year, didn't even make my sophomore year full time because i couldn't handle the coursework and "failed" the first time I took MCAT but right now I'm seating on many DO acceptances and MD waitlist also as of now, so don't give up if you have a bad grade or failed something we always have time plenty of time

[@CreativeC13]

As someone who already failed a dual enrollment course but hasn't gone to college yet, this is very helpful!

[@aishax]

congrats that's amazing!!!

[@JoeMama-oo1pi]

I thought I was the dumbest person on earth cause I forgot to sign up for a google classroom for Arista in Middle School which I worked hard to get there but then I got kicked out since I didn’t join 😬

[@AC-mp7cx]

@@JoeMama-oo1pi what

[@yellowplatypus2342]

I read and prepared for my MMI interview using your book and just found out I was accepted into the BSMD program at UNR! Thank you!

[@MedicalSchoolHQ]

congrats!!!! Thanks for letting me know.

[@cmhardin37]

@@MedicalSchoolHQ Is there any chance of getting into medical school and getting licensed with 2 DUIs from 10 years ago?

[@mariaengland5164]

@@cmhardin37 I want to know this answer also! :)

[@nu4968]

What's the name of the book?

[@davidsoto4394]

Is it bad to take fewer classes at a time/ each semester when doing prereques for medical school and for the MCAT?

[@Nowayyy22]

For some reason I’m watching this as a graduating fourth year medical student and DAMN it brings back memories 😹

[@Agtsmirnoff]

The sad part is, the vast vast majority of schools don’t require calculus.

[@MedicalSchoolHQ]

The sad part is, calculus exists...🤣

[@EEKProductions]

@@MedicalSchoolHQ Damn you, Newton!

[@mariahslittlelamb8049]

@@MedicalSchoolHQ No! Everyone should be required to take calculus if they're going to go to medical school. Why wouldn't we if we have to take physics? Calculus is the basis of a lot of physics.

[@mariahslittlelamb8049]

@@yukijames1321 Everyone in the educated world should be required to take calculus. It should be a basic standard of education that is met by all academic institutions.

[@kparm23]

This is my exact story! But thank god I'm still finishing undergrad classes so I still have time to show an upward trend even if my GPA isn't the best. Thanks Dr. Gray for this helpful video! 😊

[@pennyjackson5627]

Very informative! I plan watch the entire series with my new found time away from in-person classes. Just want to note that Baylor College of Medicine is a Private Institution, not public.

[@deelee1663]

Most schools, for Texas at least, does not view scribing as sufficient in lieu of shadowing or clinical hours. They explain its not shadowing because you’re not following the doctor around throughout the whole patient stay (re-eval, disposition) just the initial greet. It’s not clinical because you don’t take an active role in patient interaction. It’s difficult to get the clinical hours for me because the experiences (CNA, EMT, Med assisting) all require at least an year of training and $$$$

[@SeeMyWays]

Dee Lee EMT courses are usually a semester or less. Search around because there are some courses that are less than a month. Where I am in Arizona there is a 12 day course. But I do agree that it costs a lot of money

[@JohnDoe-hj1ib]

This student is very snobby, and frankly just does not fit the characteristics I would want in my own physician. Simply by her response to Dr. Gray's suggestion of DO shows that this student may be wanting to become a doctor for other reasons...

[@henrynguyen475]

Tried to give her a chance, but fully agreed with you by the end. One of my least favorite episodes, since it seemed like she wasn’t taking Dr. Gray’s suggestions seriously.

[@tybera1114]

I'm a non-trad with mostly online creds due to my full time job, and I'm hesitant to go DO, because they straight up cannot practice medicine in certain parts of the world, or have to climb hurdles in others. this is especially the case for locations in Asia. I lived and worked abroad in Japan as a software engineer, and would love to open an English speaking clinic there one day, but I wouldn't be able to do that as a DO. It has nothing to do with DOs being "lesser", I don't want to do anything crazy competitive, even if I did, there is a wonderful DO Dermatologist nearby I could talk with. But the limitations on DOs and the perceptions outside the US aren't amazing, so I understand her hesitation especially with nanjing, I don't think there is anything smug about it.

[@jays5926]

💯

[@Ridethewind1427]

Agreed!

[@kehkehwong]

She seems to fit more of a researcher than a physician

[@vareemalik4221]

I wish all of them get into medical school 😭 and Please take their interview after that as well

[@rebekatalebi8046]

I like her smile & her positive attitude.

[@Bianca-sj5oz]

lord...i love these episodes but the constant interrupting is infuriating lol

[@asiaaiyanna]

that's exactly what i was thinking lol

[@DollyDomDom]

130 for CARS? A genius

[@wengleongchoy911]

Just trying to help here. I'm a rising M3. Here are my thoughts. Her Science GPA is not strong, and they are mainly level 200 classes or below (based on 23:55). If I were on the admissions committee, I would be concerned about that. I'm thinking maybe taking some more upper level Science classes (level 300/400) and doing well at those would help boost her GPA and demonstrate her ability to manage academic rigor. Also, her MCAT score is fine. But the schools she applied to require >509 I believe. 509 (79th percentile) would be lower than the average of matriculants at most medical schools. So if she is confident she could get >512, maybe wouldn't be the worst idea? One way or another, the stats part of her application needs to improve? I think you brought this up but didn't emphasize this. I'm sure you were trying to be delicate and kind. But her 48 hours as camp counselor was not sufficient in my opinion. Most applicants have hundreds of hours of volunteering. I know it's not just about checking the list, but it's so important to demonstrate passion and willingness to serve people. I would put some time into improving that as well.

[@devinwynn1299]

And while 509 is decent, a 124 in B/B is not good, especially for some of the schools she applied to.

[@thefenerbahcesk4156]

She seems like a good person. It sucks how cutthroat this whole application thing is.

[@creativeajayskitchen3199]

Her prerequisites are community college courses. I think that is the main problem. It doesn't help that the post bacc science GPA is so low. That is where she should have really proven herself. Maybe redo the postbacc at a 4 yr college, along with some upper level science courses like another person suggested.

[@davidsoto4394]

Excellent video. This gives me hope.

[@eduardosantos-xp3iw]

Do medical school care if I get an F in a French class ? Or as long as it not a science class I’m good

[@MedicalSchoolHQ]

Most medical schools aren't picking apart individual classes. The F hurts from a GPA calculation stand point. That's all. Obviously from a prereq perspective, yes, it matters because you'll need to retake it.

[@falcon829]

LOL at the providers comment. That being said, it's true.

[@alexsamano5003]

Is it bad to take any class Pass Fail? Even if it’s not a science class? For example I took a Spanish class Pass fail (P grade) my freshman year, will med schools care?

[@allinewell4754]

Hey Dr. Gray I got an F in ochem lab and F in calc II my sophomore year( it’s a long story). Retook both and earned A’s but I’m still concerned how much those mistakes will tank my application

[@wengleongchoy911]

Probably fine. Everyone falls! I think I might have a B- in my Ochem 1. Guess what, I've used ZERO Ochem and Calc so far in med sch.

[@mmoney1712]

Got a D in ochem 1 and retook it and got a B. F in ochem 2 and need to take it again. It really makes me feel dumb lol I hate it! All my other grades are decent, but it definitely worries me

[@Schrecken]

2 ears 1 mouth.

[@JD-qo7hm]

im getting my prereqs, with a shitty old chem grade, MD, DO idgaf. I will be a physician.

[@plutobaby9996]

How’d it go ? Are you in med school?

[@bellefeu4933]

Failed 3 courses freshman year (sigh), took 3 years off, then went back and pulled a 4.0 soph/junior/senior years, every semester, in an incredibly demanding degree. I've got rockstar ECs, and plan on getting a 515+ mcat. Is there any hope for me?

[@mambamed8345]

Absolutely

[@marbs8615]

why is she always laughing throughout this?

[@anjeden10]

Nerves?

[@12cghs]

Dr. Grey, AMSA conference 2020 will be online this year. Just an FYI

[@MedicalSchoolHQ]

thanks!

[@joshmcgoo]

Commenting for the KZbin Algorithm

[@jackdaly1802]

I have done 20 or so hours of shadowing a pediatrician, would this be a pitfall for me because it comes across as not enough time? I have like 250 hours of clinical experience in addition to the shadowing, as well as many hours in a leadership role within the internship I got my clinical experience at. Let me know if you guys think this paints a bad picture for an app and if there is anything you believe I can do to prepare myself for the reality of medical school. Thank you!

[@SeeMyWays]

Jack Daly I think it might help to shadow a different kind of doctor aswell