Can We Finally get a Simulation Football game?

[@r2153]

“If it’s in the game, it should be in the game”.

[@JK2333459]

True statement

[@Its_Steeeve]

My guy…… coming with that Pete Rock & CL Smooth. Nice brotha.

[@SGNHUBGamingandMuchMore]

When they reminisce over you...my god!

[@Jaybeelove90]

That vision cone from the old maddens were a lot of fun and even Backbreaker did their own version of it. I think Backbreaker aside from APF2K8 came really close to simulation football. Their AI absolutely needed work but they had a strong base to build off of. BB was the first game I’ve played that I actually felt the pressure of the pocket collapsing around you as a QB and not being able to just throw the ball half way across the field without looking. On defense you could see which direction the QB was looking and jump the routes. At this point I don’t think any company can do simulation football justice right now so I’ll stick to just playing football games that are fun even if they’re arcadey like football simulator or play Backbreaker.

[@MegaBearsFan]

Backbreaker's big problem was that, by putting the camera at field level, it expected gamers to understand route concepts and coverages, and to react to them almost as fast as a real QB. Except worse, because the gamer also had to deal with clunky controls. It was a good idea, but I think it expected too much from casual gamers gamers, without adequate accessibility options. Madden's old QB Vision at least gave the advantage of the bird's eye view, and more modern Madden games have the aimed passing with the options to slow down time, change the speed of the targeting reticle, lock the max distance the reticle can move, and so forth. Bringing back QB Vision, with more of those accessibility options that are in modern Madden could be a total game-changer!

[@Jaybeelove90]

@@MegaBearsFan i do agree with you on the controls were clunky but there was an option to change them to an easier setup. We're talking about simulation football though, its not supposed to be easy or for casual gamers. Although the madden vision cone was cool, seeing the whole field from a birds eye view is not simulation. I cant think of anything more simulation than a camera down on the field and you feeling the pressure of the defense in your face while you watch the safeties and you go through your progressions looking for an open receiver. I'm pretty sure if Backbreaker was still in development, they would've listened to the community and added other camera views and been able to fix the small problems it had with controls. As a first iteration of a game though, Backbreaker had it a lot of things right when it came to football even though they were a british company.

[@MegaBearsFan]

@@Jaybeelove90 i agree that having the camera at field level is, indeed, "simulation", but having to control your eyes and body movement with a gamepad isn't simulation. That's where things break down. Like it or not, realism concessions have to be made for the practicalities of playing a video game. Put simply, an NFL QB can physically react to the situation on the field faster than a video gamer with a gamepad in their hand (with a camera at field level, focusing on only a single receiver). Expecting video game players to have to press multiple buttons to pan the camera back and forth, and then to throw the ball, and to do that at a level that even remotely compares to real NFL football is, IMO an unrealistic expectation. And I say that as someone who wishes Backbreaker had a sequel to possibly refine its camera and gameplay, and who does advocate for bringing back a QB Vision Cone. There's also other issues with Backbreaker's camera, specifically. IIRC it had to be pointed at a specific receiver. In real football, a QB doesn't necessarily look to a receiver to tell if that receiver will be open. The first read that most QBs will make on most passing plays is the safety(ies). Are they playing middle field open or closed? This may determine whether the wideout's route will be open. But in Backbreaker, if your aiming at the wideout as your first read, the safety(ies) may not be in frame. And if you point the camera at the safeties (can you even do that in the game) at the start of the play, then the game will not let you throw to the off-screen WR until you pan the camera back to him. So there are significant limitations to having a field-level camera, with a limited field of peripheral vision, while expecting the player to be able see the field and react as quickly as a real-life QB. However, in a VR setting, with free head movement, body movement, eye tracking, and motion controls, that all becomes much more viable. Hence, I recommend you check out NFL Pro Era if you have PSVR or a PC VR headset. It's basically exactly what you're asking for, but without cumbersome gamepad controls getting in the way! :)

[@Jaybeelove90]

@@MegaBearsFan You make some good points and it got me thinking, backbreaker on the field camera with the qb vision cone would be sick, that way when you have a QB with high enough stats you can see the safeties while looking at your receivers whether it be some icons or something or even have the ability to look off the safeties. Yeah I've seen gameplay of NFL pro era and its crazy that its not talked about more or even marketed. it looks like a lot of fun and from the look of it even more simulation than backbreaker or apf2k8.

[@jamaljones566]

I made a similar comment on another video about liking the vision cone. Like you said it creates an actual skill gap. I also use to play QB growing up. You can’t throw the ball without your body being aligned in some way too. Bt it’s sad that we don’t have run styles either, like Levon Bell type the way hits holes patiently and explodes. Derrick Henry, kind of high Bt a strong stiff arm, Christian McCaffrey how he has long patient strides until he finds holes during stretch runs. I really need EA to give up the license because these football games have so much potential to be great by its being held back by EA

[@coachbray-pb1ke]

You made a lot of great points, but the sad part is the Madden fan boys & EA apologies will never hold EA Accountable for their failure or progressing simulation football. The day Madden fan Celebrated EA buy the Exclusive contract was a sad we not only lost 2K but we also lost NFL Fever, NFL GameDay, NFL Quarterback Club and many others.

[@SGNHUBGamingandMuchMore]

100%

[@forgettablelisa]

@@SGNHUBGamingandMuchMore Does Madden have fanboys? Everyone I know hates it, even the people who play it, it's just the only NFL option if you want video game football

[@Corvilux52]

The thing about the Vision Cone on All-Madden was once a player's predetermined route was finished and they started freelancing to get open, their icons would go away unless you looked at them. I loved this feature because in practice, this play would've been ran multiple times. The QB will know the routes, he generally should have an idea of where the receivers will be. Once that route has ended though and the play breaks down, he's not going to know where anyone is unless he can find them and see if they're open. The thing about it, you usually don't have the time to do that. Like you said, four seconds max and things start going to hell. The West Coast offense set the standard for how to run an offense years ago and it's been the same since. Get the ball, drop, set your feet, check the curl, check the flat, make a pass in three seconds. Efficiency and not letting the QB get hit. You make shit as easy as possible for the QB. Read 1, read 2, hot/safety valve if there's pressure. All the QB needs to do is throw an accurate ball. The Vision Cone REALLY wasn't that hard to play with. It took maybe five minutes to get used to it. A lot of people didn't and still don't know you could lock onto a target. Press R2/RT and the button of the receiver and you lock onto them. That is genuinely how easy it was.

[@Corvilux52]

Another thing that bothers me is how audibles and hot routes work in Madden. In REAL football, not many QBs have the freedom to call plays or outright draw up a new play on the fly. There's maybe only a couple that have the privilege to do that. The way it works now is you can completely draw up a new play at the line based on what you see, something you know will exploit or break the glitchy coverage and you somehow deliver a completely accurate pass on a play that's not even in the playbook. Every time. Maybe Mahomes can do that. Maybe Josh Allen can. But your backup on a team where the starter is a 77OVR is not dropping dimes. Another thing is just how fucked up coverages are. It was done perfectly(for the most part) in the old NCAA PS2 games. Run curl flats against Cover 2, the flat defender will drop back just far enough to take away the curl while staying close enough to the flat route so if the ball comes out, they can try to jump the route and make a play. It was done perfectly, that's exactly how you are taught to play Zone in that scenario. When you get hi-lo'd, take away the deep route but don't take yourself out of the play on the short route in the process. Play Recognition should be an attribute that dictates how quickly the AI figures out what's going on, Awareness should dictate the AI's ability to correctly play their assignment in correlation to how they're being attacked in Zone and it should dictate how well they respond to a receiver's movement in Man coverage.

[@SGNHUBGamingandMuchMore]

@@Corvilux52 Excellent post my brother!!!! preach on!

[@MegaBearsFan]

Your viewers would probably like a series of videos that I've made called "How Madden Fails To Simulate Football": kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4CQpop4Zcl9fKM Each episode is a specific topic, ranging from games not being balanced for 15-minute quarter lengths, how the lack of QB vision makes passing offenses too easy and trivializes the pass rush, how the pass rush itself fails to properly disrupt pass timings (though, to EA's credit, this has actually been improved since I made the original video), how the games don't model longsnapping at all, etc. I have several more videos in the planning stage about coaching and gameplanning, but I've been putting those off until CFB25 released, so that I could see if CFB added anything interesting to the table. Spoiler alert: no it didn't :(

[@SGNHUBGamingandMuchMore]

I'm gonna give them a watch!

[@MegaBearsFan]

@@SGNHUBGamingandMuchMore I think you'll especially like the 2nd episode, which is about QB Progressions. The 2nd half turns into a pitch for bringing back the QB Vision cone, along with suggestions for how the mechanic could be improved to fix the valid complaints that were levied against the Vision cone back in 2006. kzbin.info/www/bejne/haaad5ttptd1fK8

[@rb6277gamingSSRforfun]

The problem with makers like EA is that they only care about Ultimate team to make extra money. The aspect of simulation of individual players or gameplay does not interest them much. I can not judge games like Axis or Varsity Football, simply because they are not available in Europe. I still have a little bit of hope with Maximum football if it is ever released.

[@JohnThree-f8e]

Majority of players run slants to roll out and throw it to the sideline that's arcade style football not sim because it's a 3 step drop quick pass

[@ManiacMonkboon]

NFL 2K5 > any Madden.

[@brianbarner7284]

How bout some motions for running backs other than just sit there till hike????

[@marklaserone9364]

Maximum football where is it I got my football universe ready to go I can't wait 😎

[@Glotoe]

True. It’s very sad man. EA is not doing nothing to make a real simulation. EA can’t create a realistic crowd. Still no rag-doll physics, no tattoos, no mascots, no cheerleaders. No option to add first person and remove scoreboard and HUD for the most immersive experience. There’s no way the NFL is ok with EA product

[@deycreate]

why is maximum football takin so long

[@jakepophal985]

Is this why young kids don’t actually know football? They base everything off madden current day. Like how good a player is