Can You Fix Oversteer with Setup & Technique?

Can you fix oversteer with setup and technique? Yes, you can and it's explained in this video. Welcome to Driver61's Driver Analysis where our head coach, Scott Mansell, critiques our subscriber's driving.
The idea of these videos is to use the example driver to enable everyone to learn and become faster, more consistent and feel in total control on track.
Today's video rides onboard with Najuad Rasoul in an Ariel Atom at the Silverstone GP circuit. Najuad is having fun on track, but if he wants to be faster, a change of car setup and technique is required to control the massive oversteer the car has.
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[@JACKSPEED_TV]

A friend told me about your channel a year or two ago, he uses your input to improve in simracing. I never listened to him 😂 But after subscribing and watching your last few vids I can see why you're content is gold 👍

[@mocool05]

Perfect explanation. Please do global understeer next

[@lydiagould3090]

Agree, I suffer with bad understeer.Worse at Silverstone for some reason. Will look out for your next analysis

[@mocool05]

@@lydiagould3090 I also think it's one of the hardest problems to fix 😬

[@brunomanco7529]

@@lydiagould3090 a quick fix would be larger front tires, or put a thinner front swaybar. Or put a thicker rear swaybar. Theres so many variables. Is it a fwd or a rwd?

[@nicholaslopez7918]

"The car has oversteer on the entry to the corner, the apex and the exit." Personally I see no problem here really 😂

[@chris-graham]

it's slow

[@Jejking]

Easy there Colin, be a good boy and go out and play with your rally car in the mud xD

[@najuad]

Hi Scott, spot on! I thoroughly enjoyed the critique on my driving!! by the way this was after asking the factory for some tweeks to reduce the oversteer! As you described I need to work on settling the car, I’m not the smoothest driver and enjoy moving it around. Ultimately It’s great fun to drive but frustratingly unstable through the longer corners. I’ll have the alignment rechecked, ordered some firmer springs and considering going up a rear tyre size. Maybe just one change at a time and see what happens. Many thanks again, you can expect a barrage of critique requests now from all my pals who were very impressed with the video. Many thanks !

[@Driver61]

Mega mate! Top driving - you should get in a race series...

[@AJDerzie]

I just noticed you have a rear wing. If you think its more high speed oversteer, easiest change is ADD more rear wing. One notch should suffice. If it's the slow speed corners then you want to soften the rear or stiffen the front to change the roll center. I think your solution is with the rear aero. Reducing rake will also work for both mechanical and aero if you are suffering in both low and high speed corners. Best of luck!

[@najuad]

derzie01 Thanks for your input, yeah it’s got an absolute gigantic pair of wings. I have no scientific data but eyeballing the rear one the angle on it looks ‘about right’ Any more angle and I think it would be actually an air brake more than a wing! Also I don’t know how effective at producing any down force it actually is, airflow back there is pretty turbulent. I’m at Donington on the 2nd Nov, will play around with settings and angles then. (As well as my technique!)

[@AJDerzie]

Flying Lap Sounds good! Just remember, one change at a time. Let’s us know!

[@Cobra427Veight]

Maybe you have bump steer slightly ,wheels are better to bump out slightly under compression but still be toeing in , watch this video , Cobra Bump Steer 2.wmv well explained, also long acre racing have a good list of bump adjustments . Cheers .

[@TankRust]

That Atom looks like a terrifying drive. Power oversteer at 100 mph warrants a backup set of underpants back in the paddock. Good thing the driver has great car control skills! Nice job with the analysis as always.

[@GTChucker86]

TankRust The Atom is fairly controllable even in maximum attack. I’ve driven one in a local track here and the car is very forgiving way more forgiving than something like a Caterham since that car has very fast turn in making it quite twitchy for less experienced drivers, Mind you i only driven the standard Atom with a K20 Honda engine never have I tried the V8 version since i’ve heard that thing is a completely different beast flat out

[@TankRust]

@@GTChucker86 Yes there is a very well set up Atom that runs local to me as well. It is the 300hp supercharged version with full custom aero bits, and puts down very quick lap times. They are definitely extremely capable cars, it just appears that this particular one has a setup that makes it very loose in all phases of cornering. I bet it's a blast if your skills are up to the task!

[@GTChucker86]

TankRust Highly likely his suspension is all setup wrong. Well setup and balanced Atoms dont oversteer unless you’re aggressive with it but this Atom seems to behave or turn in like a Holden Monaro with oversteer all the way through. Edit: its like making an F1 car handle like a V8 Supercar 😂

[@breakawaymotorsports]

Ive track driven my Atoms for 13 years...(numerous FTDs and first place finishes) and most of the time a case of oversteer is more about tires than anything.Good tires..no problem. Bad tires..problems. Great videos!!

[@LetoDeWirre]

lowering rear ride height will give you more rear end grip for a completely different reason. Think about it: increasing static weight on the axle will proportionally increase centrifugal forces, making car more oversteery instead due to tire load sensitivity. What it actually does is reducing jacking forces (or lowering instantaneous roll center, as old folks called it), lowering weight transfer from the rear inner wheel to the rear outer. Getting softer rear sway bar would do the same minus aerodynamic changes.

[@RBGgermanKX250F]

This is spot on

[@cheletev1281]

Fantastic explanation !!!

[@beroecaaaa]

Awesome! Would love more content like that.

[@alviolampis]

That Ariel Atom is incredible...

[@SchwippedieSchwappe]

Wow i learned so much in those 8 minutes :D Great insight and it's very easy to understand

[@weedlike2present]

Top content. Lots of reasonable stuff I never would have thought of. Thank you so much (part about brake balance going into the corner really lit a light bulb here)

[@emmanuelperez9490]

Good explanation. Thanks a lot. Something I would do if I was that driver is I would decrease the rear tire pressure for both rear wheels. That makes a lot of difference.

[@steverabbits]

Every person I've ever spoken to who has owned or driven an Atom on track has said the same thing to me - they are very loose at the rear and will have you off in a heartbeat if you lack the skills to drive it fast. I would have thought that Ariel would have sorted out this issue by now!

[@GTChucker86]

SteveRabbits Actually the Atom in my opinion when I drove it at a local track here has been far more forgiving than the Caterham i rented. Then again the owner did spend quite a bit of time working on the suspension setup

[@tcroft2165]

Depends so much of the model and the spec.

[@steverabbits]

@@GTChucker86 Yep, kind of my point, after being around for so many years now and being a pretty much track focused car (I am aware they get driven on roads as well before everyone writes in! 😂) you would think Ariel would supply them with that already done especially at the price they are!

[@GTChucker86]

SteveRabbits well the car is literally just a roll cage with wheels and an engine the car itself is literally inviting you to work on its setup😂. So yeah Atom may have different ideas what or how the car handles out of the box but its up to you to set it up to your liking, you dont just drive a new car you bought and then leave the sitting position all the way forward as it was left in the dealer now do you? 🤣

[@steverabbits]

@@GTChucker86 No but neither do I drive it home from the showroom and then expect to have to fiddle with the suspension because the factory set up is dangerous! I have lost count of how many times I have seen Atoms go off on track with factory set suspension settings. I agree it invites you to work on the settings but that is tricky when your chassis is bent from going through a barrier backwards! 😂😂😂😂

[@200mphgt40]

So many things to mechanically change on the car, lowering rear ride height is not the first thing I'd be doing... Without knowing the particular car, my first suggestion would be tyres! How old are rear tyres?! My car came with AD08R tyre fitted, which are one of the best road tyres that are tack competent (not a proper r comp tyre however). They had good tread depth front and rear. However the rears were completely shot for grip and it was a drift machine everywhere, rather amusing in a low torque and open diff lotus! Set of new proper R Como tyres (V70A) and car now struggles to oversteer anytime other than if I'm too abrupt with turn in or mid corner lift. Then you gotta be sharp to keep it all together, the downside of a mid engined car I guess. Once tyres are good, as already suggested elsewhere, rear bar settings, tyre pressures, camber and toe all need checking, plus of course corner weighting. Go through all the basics. Ride height rake can be tweaked, but you may be simply masking a far more basic issue. Better to fool with rake last IMHO. Love the content on your channel. Been on track for many years and always good to listen and learn more!

[@nucspartan321]

I've actually read that rasing one sides ride height increases it's static load. So to decrease oversteer you'd want to raise the rear while keeping the front ride height the same. I've experienced this in Sims like rf2 when looking in the telemetry after changing the ride height.

[@s2oooo]

You nailed it I know this guy well . His other car is a supercharged Honda S2000 that he drifts sideways everywhere on a track day 🤣

[@piedrakitabevi]

TIME STAMP 4:08 Now I understand what happens when taking corners. Thanks man, you explain things very well and you actually "explain" them :) I have another question. When making the turn or taking the corner, why does it help when you accelerate a little bit, I'm taking driving lessons and I noticed I can take the turn faster that way. But why does this work exactly? Moreover, what would happen if you, while making the turn, or the moment you actually make the turn, don't even have your foot pressing the break paddle... and only slightly press down on the throttle and off again (so only use the throttle)? Another question: Is the key then to break "before" you make the turn, but not while you actually make a turn? Cause I once heard someone say that you shouldn't break and turn at the same time simultaneously, when taking a high speed turn, on the highway for example. What happens if you do? Thanks in advance Driver61.

[@alangail1695]

Saw a Atom yesterday that had a square foot of fender cut out (rear fender) to stop the air build up that was lift taking weight off the rear.

[@greghill6117]

Oversteer on “corner entry”, stiffen the rear dampers and less negative rear camber. Don’t soften the front, we don’t want excessive dive.

[@JerainJezza]

A bit more toe in at the rear together with softer ARB at the rear.

[@najuad]

JerainJezza can’t get softer than no anti roll bar 😂

[@AJDerzie]

@@najuad You can put a softer spring in rear or a stiffer ARB in front if it has one.

[@brunomanco7529]

Theres so many variables. Tire sizes, pressures, damper, sways, Springs. Toe and camber

[@ShaneAngRacing]

can you do a critiq on my last race? learn so much from your channel. cheers

[@bdragonfry]

i'm an happy atom driver. This car is perfetc to drive with this oversteer. There is no weight on front wheels, so when you lower the rear, you have a lack of grip on the front and the car will understeer. Soften the rear suspension help a lot. The aero kit doesn't help so much, only on the brakes. I'am slower when i put better tires on rear, cause this car needs to oversteer to turn. But this car can't be compare to another for this.

[@0Freguenedy0]

Nice approach man. I believe that with this sequence of test of setups you can gain some confidence with less oversteer. But I'm not sure cause I've only tested in sim and am future engineer with not enough experience. So... Just hope it helps. Try each and see if times or handling improves. 1- try more rear toe in 2- try less rear camber 3- soften rear susp (as you did) 4- less rear roll stiffness 5- a better limited slip 6- more downforce And if the rear is breaking loose suddenly (not progressive with more steering and/or throttle) after a bump or curb, try having more suspension travel in the rear

[@bdragonfry]

@@0Freguenedy0 Hello! 1- yes with more toe in' there is less oversteer and better motricity, it's a fact. Perfect for newbies. But more understeer en less vivacity. I don't like. 2- There is few camber sotck (1°), and unless put 4° not change a lot. 3- yes 4 - there is no anti-roll bar 5- mine is a Torsen, better htan the stock quaife. 6- well, all laptimes tests are better without aeropack than with. As i said, this car is faster with oversteer than neutral or understter. The concept of the Atom is to be fun to drive, like a Kart. 7 - The only real solution is to track with slick. Quicker, when you achieve to warm front tires.

[@0Freguenedy0]

@@bdragonfry nice car and technic. Loved your videos. You're living a dream of mine

[@bdragonfry]

@@0Freguenedy0 Watch my video called " a la poursuite de cater" ;)

[@JL-cn1qi]

Does the Diff allow tuning ?

[@yaddagaming7561]

Interesting stuff. When would you look at adjusting toe and camber?

[@timburton7307]

camber I'd say looking at the temps across the face, that's what we do anyway

[@Mr6Sinner]

"The most simple setup change to make is to change the rake." Would it not be more simple to check tire pressures first? I know the Atom is a totally different animal, but just a half PSI down in the fronts of my Miata can change the car from being beautifully balanced to having nearly uncontrollable oversteer at the limit. Edit: I’m commenting on Scott saying that rake is the “simplest” solution; I’m not saying that tire pressure is the only or a more important thing to check. People replying seem to want to argue things that may be better, but that’s not what I’m talking about.

[@SyaifulAriffin]

add +rake and lower rear tyre pressure..take both

[@tcroft2165]

Tyre temps as well. The atom is like most lightweights v v sensitive to cold tyres. Pressures can help this.

[@twinturbo3470]

or anti roll bars

[@astrorota]

If you place a race on corner weight scales, raising a corner puts more weight on that given tyre. ie , when I am chasing more rear grip I will raise the rear. Is a Arial Atom different?. Also I have found raising or lowering the rear roll centre gives the most profound change to dialing under-steer or over-steer out.

[@brunomanco7529]

At that moment he could've gone to the box and mess with the tire pressures. Something like 2.2 bar hot at front and 1.9 or 1.8 hot at rear could help a bit. Disconecting rear swaybar could help as well

[@SpookyRipples9]

Whats happing with my car in Silhouette series in RaceRoom sim is I am getting oversteer & spin on corner exit. Tried to increase rare downforce but didn't help much. Enabling TC causes to slower corner exit.

[@s.a.i.v]

So what solution is best, driving technique change or car setting change

[@In5an1tyB]

Whats the moving red dot in the lower right of the car cam? Is it the direction of centrifugal force? Sorry, newbie here.

[@nitaihat12]

when he reccomends that we leave the breaks earlier, isn't that slower then fixing it with setup because it forces me to brake earlier?

[@davegt27]

it could be the rear tires are worn out the easiest and quickest thing to do is lower the rear tire pressure depending on the driver 1 to 4 psi, (i recommend going down 2 psi) the better the driver the less tire pressure change you will need until you get to the point where the left and right tire pressures are different next get you seating position right the drivers arms are out stretched maybe get a hub extender to get the wheel closer now keep in mind you can work on the problem on both ends of the car for example raising the fronts can do the same as lowering the rear (I like working on the end of the car with the problem) JMTCW

[@PedroFTeixeira]

I agree with the tire pressure. Try something easy and that only afects the rear axel. The rake would afect the front, i would also try to remove some tire pressure at the rear.

[@AutistaXR]

I think that lowering the rear height would also help with corner exit oversteer, wouldn't it? And maybe some LSD tune? Hmm Great video

[@Driver61]

Yes, ride height in a non-aero car would help every corner, every phase.

[@thomasgoodwin2648]

In many forms of sim racing, there is no option to adjust the car, so the only thing you can change to go quicker is the "Nut Behind the Wheel"!

[@4G12]

I wonder if this car is experiencing any tyre rollover induced oversteer at the rear at all, if it is, how bad, something this footage alone can't prove definitively. Alignment wise, if the rear roll stiffness isn't excessively low, a slight increase in rear negative camber and toe in (if not already too much) might help. Tweaking damper settings would help a lot taming entry and exit oversteer, but since this is oversteering throughout the entire corner, I believe the springs and rollbars need a hard look. If the rear tyres still experience thread rollover even with toe in and negative camber settings near the limits of what is sensible, then an increase in rear rollbar rate is absolutely necessary, but not without an even greater increase in front roll stiffness via a stiffer front rollbar or even stiffer front springs and dampers to increase front roll rate %. Much better to sacrifice a bit of front grip to give it to where it is severely lacking at the rear.

[@andrea7693]

If possible I would soften the rear rebound hydraulics (to ensure that the rear wheels copy the track more under breaking), probably stiffen up the front compression to have less weight transfer under braking. Also the compression rear setting need to be soften to allow the rear of the car to sit (and have more weight transfer on the rear) in the acceleration phase. Camber and anti-roll bars definitely helps too, but more in the middle of the corner (near the apex) than entering/exiting the corner

[@4G12]

@@andrea7693 I would recommend the same setup changes as you did, though I didn't want my post to turn into a TLDR situation, hence neglecting to mention them specifically. This is why I LOVE dampers that compression and rebound independently adjustable because it really enables you to dial in a car to near perfection. Anyway, the setup changes you suggest should help on corner entry and exit quite significantly, but they won't be enough for a car that oversteers throughout the entire corner. This is very likely a severe case of having the overall steady state balance of the car completely wrong to begin with and those tweaks alone won't fix the car unless actual roll bar and maybe even spring rate changes (aka steady state roll, wrap and pitch rates) are made. This is a relatively high power to weight ratio, lightweight car, setting it up for progressive understeer that terminates with mild to moderate understeer at the limit of grip makes much more sense and is faster overall than showing off your 4 wheel drifting skills.

[@andrea7693]

@@4G12 Really glad to see someone commenting that has a firm grip over the topic he's discussing. Having said that I'm pretty sure that your knowledge of the setup adjustments is greater than mine, so I won't add much more! What I can add is that, ideally you would like a bit of oversteer (nothing that requires opposite lock inputs, but just a tendency to point inside the corner) while trail braking/pointing for the the apex and the same while accelerating out of the corner to be able to give max throttle without the car understeering out of the track. I do agree with you that an understeering car is easier to push to the limit but could be limiting too, lap time wise.

[@0TheDudeHAHAHA0]

Andrea Pecchiari guys - really interesting chat. I have adjustable KW V3 on a 996 911 which has some rake in the set up. I’m having what seems like a bit too much oversteer on exit - would you start by tweaking 1. Less rake, 2. Soften rear anti roll bar, or 3. Less compression and rebound at the back? Many thanks for any help!! Also front seems like it rolls a little too much - does that change any recommendation? Stiffen ARB at front?

[@andrea7693]

@@0TheDudeHAHAHA0 As Scott said the best adjust must come from the driver.. Depending on the car and it's tendency you must tweak your lines and inputs first. Only then you can fine tune the setup to bring it closer to what you prefer.. Having said that I refer you to 4G12 which I'm sure can give you a couple advice, Porsche are a bit of an outlier since the weight is sitting overhanging in the back.. so you already have a lot of weight over the rear to push down those tyres.. less rake could negatively impact turning in (causing understeer) but could improve corner exit stability.. it's a short blanket, you have to try going in a direction with your setup, then came back and slowly find the balancing point where you have a nice compromise

[@anomalyp8584]

Following your explanation of angling the car backwards....if it was F1...would you still do the same? Tilting the car fowards would give more suction to the ground and airflow over the body would press it down as well. Then again, in slow corners this would not play that much, and drag would be increased in places where the extra grip is not even needed.

[@Henry-dj8dy]

Does it work on fwd cars?

[@kamikazeman]

Would stiffening the rear anti roll bars help too?

[@Driver61]

The roll bar helps the car on turn-in... so yes it would, but it wouldn't solve the issue mid to exit of the corner.

[@TheGamingHungary]

Mandje Tichelaar You are correct

[@JL-cn1qi]

Was thinking the same. Stiffen the front. The car is not lacking turn in. In fact it turns in that quick that the rear cant follow. So stiffing the front would dull it down a bit and keep balance with the rear more. It would also prevent the nose to dive that deep under braking.

[@q8fly.]

Its a Ariel Atom 3 maybe. I hear the supercharger. The spec picture at the start wasn’t correct

[@tcroft2165]

Its odd. Its says @0:40 500bhp and 2.3s which are stats for the Atom v8 but the car looks and sounds like the 3 with a supercharger. Perhaps very modified. But 2.3 really needs the sadev gearbox so I'm puzzled.

[@najuad]

@@tcroft2165 it’s a 3, with a supercharger. It’s meant to be 310hp.

[@josephworrell72]

Are you still going to be analysing sim racing incidents? If so I’ve got a clip!

[@Driver61]

Yes! Submit it to the link in the description.

[@sirtra]

Bit disappointing that the only suggestion is rake, and in combination with that braking earlier. Was kind of expecting a bit more like roll bars, dampening, spring stiffness etc.. or if you believe adjusting those wouldnt help in any way an explanation as to why.

[@MrDrBlahh]

Seems like this isnt the 500 hp Atom. The 500hp Atom has a nice front and rear wing. The lower models dont come with that so if this is the lower model a front/rear wing would be really beneficial

[@hcAsicted]

Michael morales there are 25 Atom 500 in the world and all of them are collectors items. You can get wings as an option on any Atom. They are mostly for looks though.

[@timburton7307]

based on the noise it's a 2.0 SC

[@q8fly.]

I have a Ariel Atom 3s which is a USA built with the wings. 365hp turbocharged

[@MrDrBlahh]

I could hear the supercharger for sure. Ah i didnt know the wings were an option for all models

[@JL-cn1qi]

Even with aero options you still want the mechanical side of the car to be setup properly aswell and not just drown your balance isues by piling on aero. That rear downforce would also fade away at lower speeds giving the driver more things to think about and factor instead of being able to thrust a well ballanced car.

[@Adam-FR]

Are there any drivers that do well with a little more oversteer and prefer it?..

[@Driver61]

Yes, usually a little oversteer is faster, but only a little otherwise it won't be optimum.

[@Adam-FR]

@@Driver61 ok! Makes sense. Otherwise it's a drift car 😆

[@Driver61]

If it was setup so oversteery the rears were always at the limit, but only using 80% of front grip, we wouldn't be going around the corner at the max speed possible.

[@JL-cn1qi]

Yeah, all the lads and lasses at Goodyear, firestone and pirelli love oversteering cars !

[@refirendum]

atom doesn't have a rear wing tho. maybe it's all it really needs. some kind of spoiler or other rear downforce type device

[@Driver61]

Yes, that could help but it's masking the base issue and wouldn't do much in the low speed corners, where he still has oversteer 👍

[@MrDrBlahh]

The 500 hp model has a front/rear wing, the lower models dont so that would be a great addition. Doesnt seem like this is the 500hp v8

[@user-no6gy9sd3f]

Change to a softer rear ARB

[@JL-cn1qi]

Or a stiffer at the front..

[@NielsHeusinkveld]

I doubt your 'drop rear ride height' argument holds true. It doesn't change the weight on the rear axle at all. It will change the suspension geometry a bit which might cause the roll center to drop, which would reduce oversteer, it might change camber characteristics a bit which may have some balance effect, and perhaps at high speeds the aero balance might change a little. You'd lower the car center of gravity a tad, but also perhaps get nearer to the bumpstops. So it is pretty hard to tell what the effect would be of lowering the rear ride height when all those things (and more) are taken into account. It does not add weight to the rear though! Edit: well it DOES change the weight distribution just in case someone points that out, but the center of gravity only moves about 5mm backward when you lower the rear 40mm on a 2.5m wheelbase car where the CG is 300mm off the floor of the car.

[@Driver61]

Put a car on corner weight scales and drop the rear ride height... It adds weight to the rear. I've done this with literally hundreds of cars over the last 15 years - it reduces oversteer no doubt.

[@NielsHeusinkveld]

@@Driver61 Hi Scott, firstly I mostly agree with things you say and I also think it would be fairly likely that lowering the rear would have some effect of reducing oversteer. But from a basic physics point of view, the 'lowering rear = more rear weight' argument just isn't significant. I just did the maths for a 1200kg car with 2.5m wheelbase and a 'street car ish' center of gravity height of 350mm above the floor. Lowering the rear 20mm adds 1.3kg to the rear axle while removing 1.3 from the front. The weight distribution goes from 50% to 49.9%. I'm not saying this to ridicule your work, but rather that this could point to some measurement inaccuracies. Do you roll the car a few yards back and forth after lowering it before you put it back on the scales? Or do you lower while on the scales? If you don't, track width changes or wheelbase changes when the brakes are on, could cause odd side forces on the scales that perhaps influence the readings a bit. I'm just thinking out loud because you physically can't get more than a few kg difference and the physics are relatively simple so anything more than a couple kg points 99.9% to some errors in measuring and 0.01% to Isaac Newton being wrong... :-)

[@Rhizostoma_pulmo]

What about understeer?

[@nikoweindel1198]

This is not an Ariel Atom 500 and therefore it does not have 500 hp. You can clearly hear the supercharger and it also has a manual transmission, thus it must be a four cylinder model. Very insightful nonetheless.

[@scarface75swe]

I doubt he has 500bhp. its an atom 3 and i guess it is a honda k20 in it. it sounds like it could be the original jackson compressor for ariel atom 3 and with that said i know it is probably not possible that it is 500hp. this is also seen in the performance against the porsche, I own a turbo ariel atom with 470bhp and I had easily overtake the porsche at the straight.

[@najuad]

Correct. It has 310hp