Canadian 1964 Pattern Web Equipment Part I

The first part in a series looking at the Canadian 1964 Pattern Web Equipment.
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[@ryanvargus9456]

My older brother used the 64 pattern equipment when he was in the CF, and he told me it was common practice to tape the canteen and mess tin carrier together to prevent them from sliding around on the belt and keep them in place at the back. Wrap gun tape (green electrical tape issued) around both a few times. When I entered the CF the 82 pattern webbing was on issue, and it was a much much better for carrying an infantryman's load. The 64 pattern meant carrying a lot of things besides the FN mags in your pockets. The problem with carrying mags in the combat coat you show is when the denim material got wet it made it more difficult to get the mags out. Anyway, nice you feature Canadian webbing.

[@RiflemanMoore]

I've heard that from others too, definitely something I plan to cover in the other videos mentioned, considering mods for the field.

[@hughledger7835]

Gun tape is green duct tape not electrical tape.

[@TheLoachman]

@@hughledger7835 The original stuff was fabric as well, unlike modern duct tape, and much heavier-duty.

[@hughledger7835]

@@TheLoachman oh yes. I remember it well.

[@TheLoachman]

@@hughledger7835 And more valuable than gold.

[@lib556]

I stand ready to advise you on how this gear was really worn/carried. I'll send you an e mail to remind you who I am. The wearing of this kit varied quite widely depending on a. the time frame and b. the specific unit's SOPs. In my first phase of infantry training (basic doesn't count), the first thing we did with the webbing was tape the hell out of it with 'gun tape' (OD duck tape). This was done so that pouches would not suddenly fall off during fire and movement. As stated earlier and in emails, you'll never see an infantryman with a respirator pouch affixed directly to the belt. This isn't a garrison vs field thing - we just wouldn't do it. Typically a respirator on a belt was a sign of being a REMF.

[@RiflemanMoore]

I remember, thanks for the advice it's much appreciated. As said this mannequin is based on studio photographs taken when the equipment was first issued, it's not in any way meant to represent how it was worn in the field. As I say I'll be very glad of advice in setting something up which is somewhat representative of how it was modified.

[@joeydepalmer4457]

the best thing to do with this gear is to give it to kids to play with or bury it in the back yard

[@mrdynamic8678]

And no pouch for the SMG, we used to tuck them into our shirt or use a Korea war pattern Bren pouch When we drew our SMG from stores with four magazines I remember thinking “where am I going to store those”

[@mrdynamic8678]

I don’t remember using that style of grenade launcher, the one I used was a slip on launcher that clicked with the bayonet lug, with a very long grenade with fins

[@althepal6818]

It was also quite common to wear a shell dressing (gauze bandage) taped to the left suspender. I don't remember wearing much the grenade pouch but it was also common to nco's and officer to have the Silva Compass at the belt on a special pouch.

[@JayM409]

The Magazine pockets were lined with a nylon material to ease insertion and removal. Getting them out was easy. Getting a magazine back in with one hand was more difficult. I carried a wright in the rain note pad. Most others carried their cigarettes. Because of the thicker material, carrying mags in the lower pockets wasn't a problem, but carrying them in the flimsier shirt would result in the magazines banging into your thigh or your balls when running. The rations at the time consisted of a full day's meals in two open cardboard boxes with shrink wrap over the top. To have any meal, you had to open both boxes. The internal nylon mag pockets in the lower jacket pocket were great for carrying all the small items out or the rations. The jacket also came with a button in liner. I saw two types, one with insulated arms, the other without. Both were heavy and inferior to the US jacket liner which was both warmer and more comfortable. I've never understood how Canada could end up with such awful cold-weather clothing. I was a Highways surveyor in Central BC before I joined up. I had far better winter kit than anything the Army issued. My boots had real wool felt with fully waterproof boots. My parka was wind and waterproof and very warm. I was shocked by the garbage that passed for winter gear in the army. Literally none of it seems to be waterproof.

[@markfisher8206]

A couple of points .The belt buckle gave a large snap which in the middle of the night sounded like a pistol round going off! We stopped carrying entrenching tools after all there were lots of shovels and picks carried on the APC. Water bottle on the right hip mess tin carrier on the left.Officers carried pistol holsters on the right side after below mentioned compass case.This webbing was crap.cant wait for you to discuss the best part of the load carrying system the 1964 Cargo Pack.I turned mine in after 33 years service and it was a shrunken mouldy blue from lying in a kit bag ! Had to explain to the Suptech what it was!Cheers.

[@RiflemanMoore]

I really hope to pick up examples of the initial issue and modified packs at some point, if and when I do they'll certainly feature. As said in the video this equipment is set up as per the trials photo, used as the thumbnail, which has the bottle on the left, mess tin pouch on the right. In Part III, replicating use in the field, they're switched!

[@markfisher8206]

@@RiflemanMoore what happens is the photographers shows up unannounced and they end up grabbing the adm clerk out of the trials section to dress up and have the photos taken!

[@dinoperedetout7464]

The e-tool was carried or fastened to the strap holding the Y together. It was never worn on the belt.

[@RiflemanMoore]

I do say in the course of the video this is assembled as per the studio photo used for the thumbnail and not in accordange with how the equipment was used in the field.

[@dinoperedetout7464]

@@RiflemanMoore fair point, was just trying to point out where it was actually carried. When a rucksack was carried, depending on the pattern issued, it would be strapped to the side of the ruck...I believe in the UK they are known as Bergens. Anyway, just trying to provide insight as to actual use, no offence meant. Also, really enjoyed the vid, Canadian equipment, especially vintage stuff, isn't covered by a lot of folks. The velcro was problematic, especially when wet, but was usually compensated for by using gun tape.

[@blueband8114]

Didn't the Swiss Alpenflage smock follow the same, carry mags principal?

[@ZvZd]

Yep and the early West German uniforms from the mid to late 50s did as well untill they ditched it in the early 60s. The interesting thing about the Swiss is not only did the uniform pockets hold magazines but they didn't even use webbing so the pockets help the canteen, mess kit, and all other gear too.

[@JayM409]

Yes, but the jacket had an internal suspension system to carry the weight.

[@AirplaneDoctor_]

Not sure if you have it, but there was also a hard shelled material covered compass pouch that was attached by velcro as well.

[@RiflemanMoore]

I don't have one at present, when I do I plan to cover that along with the holster.

[@brucegraham4332]

There are all kinds of odd bits to 64. There is a pouch for the Radiac meter designed to fit the belt, also a dispenser for mine tape, bino case, etc. There is also variations to manufacturing. The early stuff was canvas while the later stuff was more vinyl/ plastic coated. Supposedly to make it more easily decontaminated.

[@TheLoachman]

@@brucegraham4332 I remember the binocular case. I thought that the coated (I could never tell, nor did anybody seem to know, what the coating was) stuff was the original version. I never saw any of the uncoated stuff until 64 Pattern's last few years, and presumed that it was made thus to cut cost and/or because the coating substance was no longer available.

[@althepal6818]

I wore these in late 70s early 80s. We would not use the aluminium mess tin has it was nocive when oxidized. So the pouch was used to carry the rain gear. We were issued plastic plate that we would carry in the rucksack.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Ahh yes, I'm hoping to pick up one each of the melmine cup and plate at some point in the future!

[@JayM409]

@@RiflemanMoore - They were called Melmac, and were pale yellow.

[@RiflemanMoore]

@@JayM409 Indeed, melamine is the plastic they were made from, I believe Melmac is the brand name.

[@brucegraham4332]

A single 51 pattern basic pouch was still issued as part of SMG EIS by the CQMS. There was no other way to carry the mags. I don't remember seeing many modifications to 64 pattern, most RSM wouldn't allow that, at least in my experiences. I rarely saw the plastic buckles break, even at -40C. It did happen, but not as common as you would think. The biggest issue was the Velcro, especially when wet.

[@RiflemanMoore]

It speaks volumes that a new set of equipment completely omits to cater for one of the infantry small arms of the day really!

[@EagleTwoSix]

Love it! I've never seen Canadian gear before. I wasnt aware "Canadian" buttons are that old. I like the concept of carrying ammo on the smock - pretty much what British Commandos would do in WWII - Thompson or STEN mags stuffed in the pockets or.. what SEALs did in Vietnam with modified TCUs. Velcros seem pretty futuristic - cool - not too practical though.. I can imagine. That "Y" yoke would suck too. LOL Also way of carrying equipment is pretty much what Americans did in Vietnam late war. All heavy gear on the ruck (easy to drop) one light belt just a canteen and grenades so its easy to move around in combat and ammo carried in bandoleers. You could easily drop the pack and belt and still have a few mags - easy to fight in densely vegetated terrain. Cheers!

[@RiflemanMoore]

These Canadian plastic buttons go back to the early 1950s when very similar large buttons were used on newly introduced parkas. WW2 Canadian metal battledress buttons have a large hole in the centre with a pin across, as opposed to 4 holes, these plastic buttons are really a development of that design.

[@TheLoachman]

Mags in the pockets of the combat jacket (as worn by the mannequin) were not too bad (except extraction/insertion, especially with gloves) due to the stiff fabric. It was much worse with the flimsier shirt, as they flailed around a lot more. Not pleasant at all. Stupid, stupid, stupid idea, and I hope that whoever was responsible for that still has to carry his that way in whatever version of hell he's currently occupying.

[@redarmy1698]

I use my uncles as a summer casual jacket pockets are really good to hold a lot. And the inside pocket is perfect for a phone. As are the 2 upper chest pockets

[@RiflemanMoore]

Indeed, the coat itself is a nice design, in my opinion. Something for a future video, this is focused on the web equipment.

[@TheLoachman]

@@RiflemanMoore It wasn't bad for its time, but was not windproof without the button-in liner, and that was a major shortcoming. It was also a bit stiff. The US field jacket was superior in both regards.

[@cotepierre68]

I used that webbing for 2 years before it was replaced by the 82 Pattern. The big mods were tapes to hold the the parts together. Sometimes, you could see someone to have a 51 Pattern webbing on it but it was far from the eyes of RSM 😀

[@joeydepalmer4457]

the 84 pattern?

[@cotepierre68]

@@joeydepalmer4457 oups, 82 pattern! It's corrected. Thanks

[@a51541476]

My description of the 64 pattern web equipment is that it is absolute crap. Modifications to the 64 pattern were made by almost everyone issued with this stuff. Use of gun tape to fix the grenade pouch, canteen and mess tin carrier to the belt, reinforcing the velcro belt loops, were common. Gun tape to fix the canteen and the mess tin carrier to each other was also done by almost everyone. In addition, gun tape was used to fix a first field dressing to the left hand shoulder strap was done. I was issued the 64 pattern equipment in 1985 when I joined up. I had to put up with it until early 1987, when I was issued the replacement kit, the infinitely better 1982 pattern web equipment. I used the 1982 pattern kit until 2003, when I was issued the even more superior Tactical Load Bearing Vest. I used the vest until I retired. Although we were issued with mess tins, we never used them. Instead, we were issued with a yellow plastic melmac plate and cup. We used this until the Canadian Forces Medical Service determined that the scratches on the plate allowed bacteria to accumulate causing a health hazard to the soldiers. This happened sometime in the early 2000's. Regards, D.A. Stolovitch, CD Captain 2 Military Police Regiment / Canadian Forces Military Police (Retired)

[@TheLoachman]

I used the mess tins in the field a lot. Frequently, there was no ability to wash them after use. Stuffing one's rain jacket back in was rather icky. The Melmac items also came in pale blue, green, and brown.

[@lib556]

Same experience here. Only we were issued the 82 pat webbing in 85 (3 PPCLI) just in time for Ex RV 85. Around 1990, a CANFORGEN came out saying that the mess tins, in fact, were not poisonous. By that time nobody cared. I used mine to hold all my ablution stuff (in an extra pouch in my ruck). The mess tin made for a better wash basin than my canteen cup. Stopped carrying it as part of webbing in the late 80s.

[@althepal6818]

Maybe it wasn't the best web gear but in 1979, in the milicia (reserve) we still had the previous 1950's pattern or what was left of it that is to say most of it. Only the belt, cantenn, messtin and a Poncho rolled ant strapped to the belt. We dreamed of having that 1964 equipment which we think just look so professional.

[@lib556]

@@althepal6818 I mentioned this fact elsewhere. Most of my buddies in the infantry militia were happy with the 51 patter as it was superior in many ways. Wider shoulder straps, pouches didn't slide around on the belt during fire and movement nor did they fall off. I personally can't comment as I was issued 64 pat when I joined the Reg F.

[@TheLoachman]

@@althepal6818 It was much more comfortable (due to the lack of US-style hooky things that attached the pouches via the belt grommets) and much quicker to adjust than 1951 Pattern. I liked my hybrid version better than both, and better than the 1982 Pattern (simpler and without the excessively bulky shoulder padding).

[@TheLoachman]

Thanks, Simon. Could you please put the thumbnail photograph into the video itself as well, so that we can see the details? I do not recall ever wearing the water bottle on the left and mess tin carrier on the right as per the thumbnail photograph. My photographs from the 1970s are all in a box in storage, unfortunately, so I cannot confirm. I never saw the entrenching tool or carrier issued, but have a carrier purchased brand-new from a surplus shop. We always used real shovels for digging. The grenade pouch was designed to carry two US-pattern M26A1 or later M61 elliptical, smooth, pressed-steel-bodied grenades with internal coiled square-section wire segmented every four millimetres to give the fragmentation effect. The small, golf-ball-sized grenade was the Dutch (if I remember correctly) V40. Those were withdrawn from service for safety reasons before I ever had the chance to see one. The grenade pouch could also carry two Pains-Wessex coloured smoke grenades (twist-off-and-pull cap) or two ration pack tins (the NBCW mask carrier also tended to be used for ration carriage - "GAS - GAS - GAS" calls often provided some comedy as various things were flung into the weeds as masks were ripped out). The Velcro tabs on the bottom were also handy for carrying thunderflashes - big firecrackers used to simulate grenades on exercises. If some of your carriers are canvas-like, those are late-production examples. Most would have had the standard smooth olive-green coating. There was also a horrible 1964 Pattern "Cargo Pack" most useful for destroying spines. They had been replaced by a Canadian version of the US Vietnam-era Light Weight Rucksack, know as the Rucksack Universal C2 (but now erroneously referred to as the "64 Pattern Rucksack"). I've got a Cargo Pack, alas also in a box in storage. We always carried the mags upside-down. That way, the baseplate would provide a better grip during the extraction struggle and would not snag, and debris would not fall into the mags. Empty mags were often tossed down the neck of one's shirt during fire-and-movement, as trying to stuff a mag into a pocket and do up the button on the run was a challenge. We have yet to issue a decent, workable set of loadbearing equipment during my lifetime. The 1951, 1964, and 1982 Patterns were all dismal failures, as is the current Tac Vest. Edit: Section/platoon attacks were frequently followed by sweeps for lost mags and pouches.

[@lib556]

Similar to my experiences with a few exceptions: a. rarely did we ever dare to put rats in with our respirator - NCOs randomly checked for that; b. some units did issue the e tool and wore it (I sent Simon a pic of a famous 3 PPCLI poster showing Sgt Luscomb kitted out with an e tool). That said, they'd stopped by the time I was in. Mission drives the kit choice; c. we never put mags in our pockets. We all had some sort of extra pouch for mags. Running about with mags in pockets is... stupid; we ALWAYS wore the respirator on straps separate from the belt so we could shed webbing for digging yet still have the respirator on the body in order to make the 9 second deadline to mask up. In my 35 years in the infantry I've worn all 3 patterns of LBE (64, 82 and the newer vest). None are perfect. 82 was a huge improvement over 64 but comds then thought we could carry everything. The SOP in 3 PPCLI in 85 - 88 was to carry 48 hrs of emergency rats in the butt pack! The only way it worked was to strip 6 meals down to the foil envelopes and rack them in like files in a drawer. The vest was lacking before it was issued (we said as much to the rep from Ottawa). 4 mag pouches is insufficient. He argued that EIS was only 5 and that one would be on the rifle...sigh... I can't speak for everybody's 'loadout' but, both tours in Afghanistan, I was issued 10 mags and 300 rds of ammo... to be carried in the vest at all times...

[@RiflemanMoore]

Quite right, all photos I have of this kit used in the field show the bottle on the right, not the left. As I say there will be a video in the future talking about how this was actually used/modified.

[@lib556]

@@RiflemanMoore It varied depending on individual battalion SOP (hence the e tool).

[@TheLoachman]

@@lib556 I started out in 4 RCR in 1973, and did a bunch of exercises with 3 RCR before going regular a few years later. I don't think that anybody in the platoon to which I was attached for those exercises had any extra pouches, but I do not remember there being any policy banning them. That was where I saw "extras" stuffed into the NBCW carrier, and some other silliness. The PPCLI always seemed to be a little bit more logical and less parade-oriented. When I joined 4 RCR, we still had a couple of WWII and Korean vets (the latter two being much more grumpy than the former) and one Vietnam vet, though, and they influenced my thinking considerably. Quite a few of us in 4 RCR bought 64 Pattern webbing at surplus shops, mainly John's in Pembroke. When a later CO banned it (we were still issued 51 Pattern), I modified a set of pouches and a belt with 64 Pattern Velcro. It improved adjustability and comfort, the cross straps still attached to the buckles on the pouches and thus carried their weight, and it was indistinguishable from regular 51 Pattern. I don't remember ever using the sling for the NBCW carrier until posted to Germany in 1985. Reservists were not normally issued them, so my early experiences were said exercises, Chilliwack, and Gagetown before an occupational change (which still involved much wearing of webbing).

[@lib556]

@@TheLoachman Fair comment on RCR vs Patricias. We often called the Royals "rock painters" because of their Parade Square approach. On arriving in 3 PPCLI the RSM was the last serving Korea War vet (Sonny Grant) fabulous man. A year or so earlier, my Pl Comd on Ph 2 Inf was a Royal Capt who was also a Vietnam vet. Another great guy. He's the one who instructed us on how to tape the webbing for best effect. We used either 51 pat basic pouches or surplus US M14 pouches from the surplus store in Fredericton. Two comments on reserves which not every one appreciates: a. most inf units were using 51 pattern webbing right up until the introduction of 82 pattern (skipping 64 altogether); and b. reservists were not permanently issued respirators until the 2000s.

[@66kbm]

I liked that. So much information about a set of gear i knew very little about. "velcro" fastenings are great when new, when this kit may have been used often/well worn, i can see the problems occuring instantly. Wieght onto worn Velcro = separation of items. Not ideal. Would be interesting to know the lifespan of these items from Canadian Vets that used this set up..........Or was that buzzz a really big Fly you did not see?

[@lib556]

I wore it. It was crap. Even fairly new, the pouches fell off during vigorous activity.

[@JayM409]

A full canteen would not stay on the belt. You had to tape in in place. If tape was not available, it was gone if you ran a short distance.

[@reddevilparatrooper]

I hope one day we can annex Canada to the US... Reason is they are such great folks and we would love to have them as US citizens. Nothing malicious but just wishful thinking. Canadians are just fun folks many I have run into especially the veterans of the CAF are fun to talk with. On a serious note, there were thousands of Canadians who enlisted into the US Armed Forces to fight in Vietnam. I call them as Brothers indeed! As in WWII many Americans enlisted in Canada's Armed Forces to fight the NAZIs too. It reciprocates both as we are neighbors.

[@brucegraham4332]

Do you really want to annex Canada? It would be really hard to get you guys to swear allegiance to the Queen and learn to sing "O Canada".

[@TheLoachman]

@@brucegraham4332 It would be simpler for them if governments stopped changing the words every couple of years. We'd get better firearms laws out of it (state dependent) at least.

[@mrdynamic8678]

What a dumb statement, Canada is Canada and US is US, full stop

[@baileyyoung4712]

I’d love to see some examples of the additions of 51 pattern webbing or if anyone here in the comments did it I’d love to hear about it.

[@TheLoachman]

Just the ammunition pouch, although it was less than ideal.

[@RiflemanMoore]

There will be a follow up video coming up. As said the addition of an ammunition pouch, or two was most common. I've also seen a photo with a chap wearing the 1951 pouches low on a 1951 belt with the 1964 suspenders but that's just one chap, no way of telling how common that particular setup was.

[@tacticalgunsmith]

I can see why there was modification. This looks extremely impractical. I have one of the C2 chest rigs, it has fairly small shoulder straps on it.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Yes, all the straps on this are very thin (unless you mean short?) It's inadequate as infantry equipment as designed, modification essential!

[@tacticalgunsmith]

@@RiflemanMoore they are both thin and fairly short also

[@cotepierre68]

With a C2 chest rig, it was a nightmare lol! For the load we had at the time, it was well thought but it aged really badly.

[@davidbrennan660]

Most interesting, some odd ideas.... which kind of errrrrr, kind of worked.....ish.... did the designer(s) ever have to use the system?

[@TheLoachman]

From what I've seen, designers ended their operational experience centuries prior to getting into design, and are quite impervious to accepting feedback from people who are very much operational. Stuff often seems to do well during user trials, but then gets slammed once issued. The design and trial process is horrendously long, and I think that troops involved in trials are so desperate to get something even marginally better than the ancient issued crap that they overlook the obvious shortcomings. The 1982 Pattern webbing made me realize that. I have a set of the trial stuff issued around 1977, which should have been rejected on sight (I'll provide Simon with photographs eventually). It took years to eliminate the absolutely worst flaws. Had the 1982 Pattern trial stuff been sent back for additional changes, it would have been another five years or so until the next version appeared, and the 1964 Pattern really, really, really needed to be replaced. Given a choice between two items, the result is easily predictable. That is why several different options should always be presented, including examples of what other countries issue. I began collecting webbing and uniforms almost immediately after joining, so had a much better idea of what worked and what didn't than most back then. A small but thriving industry sprang up in Canada during our involvement in Afghanistan as troops began complaining about the then-new Tac Vest. A lot of vastly superior options evolved very quickly, and many troops bought them. The Tac Vest designers refused to accept growing criticism of their baby. Nine years after we left, the Tac Vest is still standard issue.

[@ZvZd]

@@TheLoachman I actually have a few photos of the trial 82 pat webbing, would be really interested in seeing yours!

[@TheLoachman]

@@ZvZd It'll be a while yet before I can get to that, but hope to soonish. A trial of new combat clothing (British tropical DPM fabric and flat chest pockets) was done in Gagetown (and possibly elsewhere) in the summer of 1979. The developmental webbing was rejected before that, so there was no "official" means of carrying magazines. I have no idea what the solution was. My set came from a friend in the still-mourned Canadian Airborne Regiment.

[@ZvZd]

@@TheLoachman Please let me know when you do! Actually is there a way I can contact you? I collect 70s-80s Canadian militaria and i would like to ask you some questions if possible.

[@TheLoachman]

@@ZvZd Subscribe to www.Army.ca (it's free) and PM me (Loachman) from there. Or register and tell me here what your user name is and I'll find you. There are also lots of other people on that Site who can help you. Take some time to explore relevant older threads as well.

[@stevengoodloe3893]

And here I thought the French approach was weird.