Does God's Law Apply to Us? | Doug Wilson and James White | Sweater Vest Dialogues

[@wymanrtaylor]

Please keep doing these forever. Love them.

[@sweetsue6177]

Exactly:) Such a blessing for mind and soul in this crazy world.

[@QuotidianPerfection]

@@sweetsue6177 Hi Sweet Sue, In the Sweater Vest Dialogue, I noted on numerous occasions how both Dr. White and Dr. Wilson noted how some passages would require careful interpretation. Once that is complete, both discussed how God's Law would be made part and parcel of the judicial system of government. Nevertheless, in one "Dividing Line" years ago, Dr. White initially opposed for a theocracy, asking, for example, whern that system was in tact, there was a "High Priest, but where is the High Priest?" Reported crimes in the Bible, according to Dr. White's exegesis of the Old Testament, required a High Priest to assess the legitemacy of the reports; however, as Dr. White also admitted, "Jesus is now our High Priest and our Intercessor." Logically, this means any "High Priest" crimes are brought in a post-Ressurection context implies the allowability of an "Alter Cristu," or another Christ, the same Roman Catholic dotrine Dr. White rails against. I believe both speakers are good-hearted and loving individuals, but miss the point of penology, which, Dr. White once admits in the past, demonstrates a need for a Savior. In order to lend credence to my former sentence, I direct you to the following video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/p2e0h3V8d7h0sKM God Bless You! QP

[@jackuber7358]

This was a very valuable discussion. Too often today many Christians are being taught that the Old Testament has been put away, quoting Jesus, "I have fulfilled the Law." And yet what else did Jesus teach? Well, he taught His disciples to uphold the Law. So which is it? But, this is a false choice as Jesus was not saying that the Law was done and there was no longer any use for the Law. No, He was saying that He had completed the requirements of the Law, the penalty of the Law. He would be that perfect sacrifice specified by and required by the Law to receive the punishment for transgressing the Law for the remission of sins. The Law is the embodiment of God's holiness, justice, and love. The Law must be cherished as the God breathed Word that it is as part of, precursor to, and buttress for the New Testament. The Old and New Testaments are integral to and of each other, indivisible, pure, and whole and reflective of the mind and will of God. Dr. White and Pastor Wilson clearly and with astonishing simplicity declared this true truth from the rooftops. May God richly bless these two men of His Word and bless us with many more years of their service to Christians everywhere! Maranatha!

[@QuotidianPerfection]

Hi Jack Uber, Personally, I think the gay community would be much more comfortable with Reformed Christians who speak to them about how the Holy Spirit convicts and saves than a person who, while sharing the Gospel with gays, speaks of a governmental system with a penology innundated with exile and death penalty penologies that will drive them away! Back in the day, even Dr. White admitted that Christian Reconstrutionists quibbled over what did and what did not constitute appropriate punishment. Also, when the Bible says that we "turn aside" neither one way nor another when dealing with God's Law, it means precisely that. As Dr. White once asked in his pre-Christian Reconstructionist days, "Where are the High Priests?" For a refutation of the position expressed in this video, see www.reformedreader.org/rbs/tarba.htm God Bless You!' QP

[@jackuber7358]

@@QuotidianPerfection Though I cannot be certain of your true intentions with your response, I believe I may reasonably make the following inference. It appears that as many others before you, you have accepted and legitimized a community centered around a specific sin. Though it has been asked by many others before me, still I must ask would you be as accepting of a community centered on another sin -- say the thief community, the rapist community, or the murderer's community? That asside, you also advise a softening of the message, perhaps not even mentioning the problem. But, this also begs the question of would you not fervently warn a fellow image bearer that he was about to eat poison, fall in a pit, be attacked by an animal, or succumb to some other imminent threat? Is not dying in unrepentant sin and suffering an eternity of unremitting punishment not just as urgent, not just as imminent, and not just as paramount to a fellow image bearer's existence? How terribly unloving and cruel and sadistic and hateful would I be if I did not most fervently, lovingly, and forthrightly proclaimed their sin to them with the offer and promise of forgiveness and salvation provided through Christ's perfect life, perfect sacrifice, and perfect resurrection unto true and everlasting perfection in Him? You ask far too, too much. May our most holy, heavenly Father bless you with His mercy, His grace, and His wisdom through Christ Jesus.

[@QuotidianPerfection]

@@jackuber7358 Dear Jack Uber, Thanks for the prompt response. I will reply as carefully as I can. You wrote: "It appears that as many others before you, you have accepted and legitimized a community centered around a specific sin." I think the term "legitimize" ought to be defined very carefully. If legitimizing sin means that breaking God's commandments, even the smallest one, necessitates divine retribution, then it is inaccurate to make such a statement, since James 2:10 points out that even the smallest transgressors, unless saved by the Lamb of God, will be sentenced to an eterniy in their Hell for their misdeeds. If legitimizing sin means reconstructing governments to align them with the Mosaic Civil Code, that's a different issue altogether. As Dr.White points out on his "Dividing Line," God, in the end, will judge, "so no one will escape justice. I think Dr. White is inconsistent, though, by railing against those who seek to overthrow the United States Constitution--something he is seeking to do himself! Anyhow, I believe all Scripture is God-breathed but the penalology for theocratic Israel does not have to be followed by governements today. I will expand my argument as I address your other concerns. You wrote: "Though it has been asked by many others before me, still I must ask would you be as accepting of a community centered on another sin -- say the thief community, the rapist community, or the murderer's community?" Let me say that every sinner requires grace--that is the message of the Gospel--or else he or she will suffer fiery punishment in the hereafter forever. You should remember, too, that, in the New Testament, Jesus talks of "greater sins" and "lesser sins." In the United States, the majority of states believe that those who commit premeditated murder are eligible for death by lethal injection. Those who steal from others, and are caughy, have their freedom and some of their rights suspended temporarily up until they serve enough time to repay for their wrongdoing. Rapists are given lengthy sentences because of the lifelong trauma their acts cause other people--and, in the event that a rapist kills a victim in the act, some individuals believe that individual should receive the death penalty. While transgressions, such as adultery, are also offensive to God and His sense of justice, authenticating them would involve a potential to invade everyone's privacy--and everyone would be in a frenzy. Nevertheless, such persons would still 1) not escape Chruch discipline if a Christian nor 2) judgment, as Dr. White says about all Biblical infractions, in the hereafter. God's mechanism for punishing wrongoing seems, therefore, to be Chruch discipline and Judgment, rather than exhaustive secular penologies. "But, this also begs the question of would you not fervently warn a fellow image bearer that he was about to eat poison, fall in a pit, be attacked by an animal, or succumb to some other imminent threat?" Of course I would! However, I think these are moral concerns, which have wider reaching implications than setting up a government based on theocratic Israel. In order for a theonomic system to work as it did in theocratic Israel, again, the law needs to be followed to the letter. Also, people need to be brought before a High Priest--the Levites were in charge in this task. However, since Jesus is our High Priest, how, as Dr. White once asked, can this system be executed? God is very clear how exact this system needed to be when intact: people were executed for "strange fires!" "Is not dying in unrepentant sin and suffering an eternity of unremitting punishment not just as urgent, not just as imminent, and not just as paramount to a fellow image bearer's existence?" Yes. All retrobates need grace. Nevertheless, there are many Bible-believing Cristians who think the same thing who are not Chrustian Reconstructionists. I think the amount of argumentation that goes on between the Cohristian Reconstructionist movement--and even those who oppose it--demonstrates that it is not a Gospel issue. I think that the New Testament stresses the importance of recognizing one's transgressions and subsequent need for salvation far more than it emphasizes the importance of establishing a theocracy. "How terribly unloving and cruel and sadistic and hateful would I be if I did not most fervently, lovingly, and forthrightly proclaimed their sin to them with the offer and promise of forgiveness and salvation provided through Christ's perfect life, perfect sacrifice, and perfect resurrection unto true and everlasting perfection in Him?" Wow! I must commend you on your eloquence both in writing and in rhetoric. And, to be sincere, I agree with that statement completely. What I'm saying is this--we have no epistemic warrant to move from contingency to non-contingency where theocratic matters are concerned and also that such a move may scare adulterers away from Christians for fear that they might be executed under a theocratic reign. The best thing to do is to allow God to execute justice. There are plenty of Christian scholars who disagree with reinstating the Civil Code and I can provide you links to such material if you choose. My personal experience is talk of theocratic states tends, at time, to divide the elect, and we should be more concerned about the Gospel than a specific type of penury system which is, as some interpret it (and I agree with them)--used to show the seriousness and degrees of disobeying God, and our need to return to Him and His Word. God Bless You! QP

[@duncescotus2342]

@@QuotidianPerfection Big words, but I fear small ideas. Speak English, clearly, man of God. You're not a cypher code; you're an apologist.

[@duncescotus2342]

Yeah, is that so? Doesn't sound like my book of Romans in the slightest. Maybe you're missing something Jesus says in between the lines. But before we get to that, what did David and his men do? You Calvinists have some studying to do. Remember your hermeneutics.

[@jubalterrell6260]

This was so helpful to me, especially as I have been thinking through Theonomy and the proper application of God’s Law! This couldn’t have come at a better time!

[@Skooma_Detox]

I love these guys so, so much. We need faithful preachers more than we ever have.

[@Cotyblack]

That Chesterton quote about an open mind was straight 🔥. Enjoyed this, thanks!

[@TheDelgadoReyes]

I'm not sweater-vest holy just yet, but I hope that soon I can rock one of these bad boys and be part of these elite group of men that I truly truly love and have been blessed by. Support these ministries folks! These are men for our times! God is good.

[@johnwurfel2862]

Wear a fishing vest until you level up. It still gives you a +5 bonus when fishing for men, has a tactical look to hide all your boogaloo commander things, and smells better than the 1% Biker vest.

[@canibezeroun1988]

I'm a non-denom and this is an issue that always bothered me. God's love couldn't be bad because it's God's law. I've gone deeper and deeper on it and find so much more love in it than I ever could have imagined.

[@gregbooker3535]

And how much love of God did you find in that bible verse that says God "delights" in causing parents to eat their own children? You know, Deuteronomy 28:63?

[@joshuafield8224]

​@@gregbooker3535ummm I think you might need to re-read that verse😮

[@gregbooker3535]

@@joshuafield8224ummm, I think you might want to read v. 57, a parental cannibalism atrocity which God takes responsibility for causing in v. 63.

[@josiahpulemau6214]

⁠@@gregbooker3535 Perhaps begin at v.1 to catch the flow of why vv.57-63 were mentioned. The chapter starts off with the blessings of God through obedience and into the curses of God through disobedience. Context matters. Out of sheer curiosity, would you be pro abortion or pro life?

[@gregbooker3535]

@@josiahpulemau6214 How does anything in v. 1- v 62 do anything to reduce the divine sadism apparent in v. 63? The curses of God are sadistic in their brutality, and nothing in the context renders the "god-is-sadistic" interpretation of v. 63 unreasonable. Try again.

[@JJ-up5be]

What brilliant mind Wilson is!

[@MansterBear]

It's been 5 months. We need more Doug + James + Sweater Vests!

[@gregbooker3535]

Why? Doesn't the Holy Spirit ever teach you anything? Or is the third person of the Trinity nothing more than a euphemism for "study"?

[@BasedRedBeard]

These dialogues are very helpful and edifying. Keep 'em comin'!

[@BeauReese]

Thank God for James White and Douglas Wilson, and for their honesty. This was amazing.

[@Itsjustbeau]

I had all but given up on the sweater vest. This was a wonderful surprise thanks.

[@jimpemberton]

The ceremonial law is immeasurable beautiful. It is the part of the law that acknowledges and accounts for the fact that we WILL FAIL to keep the law, including the ceremonial part. It is the beauty of our Savior that not only did he keep the law, but fulfilled the ceremonial part in a perfect and efficacious way.

[@johnwurfel2862]

The first three feasts are fulfilled: passover (lamb killed), first fruits (Resurrection Day) , and weeks (Pentecost). The last 3 are still shadow type awaiting fulfilment (trumpets (rapture?), atonement (judgement of Beast?) and succot booths (when all come up to Jerusalem before the King Messiah). Beautiful.

[@meagandevore8670]

Love these conversations. The wisdom (and the sweaters) never disappoint 🤓

[@christopherwatkins7547]

If more ministers were like Doug and James I can only imagine how much more vital the Christians and their Christian culture would be. Much of the unrest going on in our culture would be answered or addressed if we applied God’s Law, but too many Christians feel like God’s Law is abrogated and Republican principals of governing and economics is the only thing to keep this country great. Thus, vote Republican and be a good, moral person and pray God either turns this country around or He’ll be here soon to Rapture us all away from the mess we’ve been making for generations not teaching and discipling from all of Scripture.

[@kellygipson8354]

Just an FYI... Neither of these pastors believe in a rapture.

[@gregb6469]

@@kellygipson8354 -- No, what they don't believe is that the Rapture takes place seven years prior to Jesus' final return on Judgement Day, but on that Day itself.

[@gregb6469]

Since we don't have a theonomic party for which to vote, what should Christians do on election day? Stay home, and let the anti-God Leftists win by default? Isn't a partially right party better than an entirely wrong party?

[@christopherwatkins7547]

@@gregb6469 - Stand for the convictions of your faith and the ethics that it is calling you to. If neither party fits the bill then don't vote for them. If the partial party wants your vote next election they'll take your ethical and moral values into consideration. However, if you keep giving them your vote to simply beat the "anti-God Leftists" every single election then they already have your vote and they aren't going to change. Vote locally, perhaps run locally or get behind someone you know is morally and ethically fit for duty in your local area and put them in place. Change your home scene and stop pandering to the Federal elections and offices as though they are the only thing that matters. Vote third party on the major elections until the "right" party takes your missing vote seriously and begin to once again pander and pursue your vote by actually taking on your values. All the while you're boosting the third party vote and maybe just maybe those numbers begin to go up and more and more people see a third party as a viable option. Don't worry about the immediate election as though it is the "most important election" but be patient and play the long game. Simply ask yourself what are the values of the right? Are they conserving those values or are they simply one or two steps behind the left? What fiscal principals do they actually have? To simply spend less than the left would have liked? That's not fiscally sound.

[@christopherwatkins7547]

@@kellygipson8354 - Not even sure how that is relevant.

[@peteryang2067]

A collision of two great Christ transformed minds. Excellent!

[@sethgoodale67]

Gosh😂😂 Wilson is hilarious!

[@paigewells3678]

Their friendship gives me a cheesy smile. Love watching these two

[@toniwardell1933]

I’m so glad I came across these talks.

[@troysgt]

“The Old Testament applies unless the New Testament specifically says it doesn’t”. So true, because God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

[@michaelkistner6286]

I've found it useful to think of the law as a pointillist self portrait done by the Creator. The law shows us who God is as much as it tells us what He commands. They wind up being the same thing. This is profoundly true if you think through what it means to be an image of God. The law reveals God's character to those whose purpose is to bear His image in the world.

[@johnknox4293]

great conversation, there is no other standard of truth but what is revealed in Scripture, therefore we need to study and learn the application of God's Law to all areas of life

[@benjib42]

There is other standard of truth, Jesus Himself, not mosaic law. I think Charles Leiter has a better understanding on the issue. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4XPoHVonrJ2rac

[@darrensmall4313]

I've been struggling with this for some time now and the break down of God's Law into those 3 categories was helpful. I think there's a general misconception in the Christian community where anytime there's a mention of following the Law the assumption is made that it's for atonement and salvation but that's not the case.

[@benjib42]

Bible doesn't divide the law like this. Listen to Charles Leiter on the Law of Christ.

[@darrensmall4313]

@@benjib42 I just finished part 1 and thanks for suggesting it. God surely works in wonderful ways. I believe the Holy Spirit did a work here through you, me and this message. Thanks for your help and time!

[@benjib42]

@@darrensmall4313 God bless you, brother!

[@darrensmall4313]

@@benjib42 and you as well

[@marlam8625]

‘keep the feast’ ❤️John 6.

[@chazgoodin4007]

Thank you for these conversations, I learn so much from both of you! God Bless you and your work!

[@Odo-so8pj]

Yes is the answer. We are asked to do it out of love for God.

[@rosemaryrojahn584]

Bonhoeffer spoke of cheap grace . "Cheap grace is the enemy of the church. We are fighting today for costly grace. "

[@duncescotus2342]

If poor Bonhoeffer said that, then, one or more of a few choices is true. 1. He said it in German, where it sounds smarter. 2. He was young, and didn't live long enough to regret saying it. 3. He meant it to be a provocative statement, to place the vision back on sacrifice of God's son, which had been diluted in the understanding of his people. 4. He didn't realize that free is even cheaper than cheap.

[@ezassegai4793]

@@duncescotus2342 free is not cheap. If your dad gives you a lamborghini for free it doesnt mean the lamborghini is free or cheap. We are bought at a high price.

[@lynntemlett6035]

So helpful. Thank you. I listen to this one repeatedly.

[@fatalheart7382]

Well, and that Person is what gives us the proper interpretation of the law, goes beyond our senses of it. Peace that passes understanding because you have a real person leading us on a path we don't know, so in our own understanding, we couldn't have that type of peace.

[@scrow321]

So thankful for both of you. I love these.

[@greaterthan836]

I love these, never cease! 🙏♥️

[@Melynn13]

You two are my favorite theologians

[@deniseadkins2901]

That case in Texas breaks my heart. Who will be held accountable? Mom, Doctors, Government? Or all of the above?

[@toddcote4904]

This was insightful and tastfully done. I have a fundamental disagreement with the premise, but I will need to reevaluate some of what I hold to.

[@zacdredge3859]

The parapet example is perfect because any modern nation has construction codes of some sort and invariably require railing in areas that are publicly accessible(which on some buildings does include a rooftop area even if it's not the norm for most houses).

[@BillWalkerWarren]

Just noticed that James is sitting on the front edge of his desk lol 😆 Blessings

[@gavin_hill]

@Bill_W_W I think it is a green screen type thing. Just a picture of his office 😅

[@alishachurch9021]

Sweater vest dialogues 😂👏 Excellent stuff💖

[@igamesaintsaintification1839]

Very good point, that's exactly how our law system should be! If it was that way, the right way, the amount of crime would be virtually non-existent...

[@3leon306]

Wilson here talking about law not going away and that god is love is close to Catholic :)

[@stephencraig247]

If I accuse my bride of not being a virgin, and evidence of her virginity is not found, then do you think I am justified in having my bride stoned to death? How do you exegete Deut 22:13-21? If I find people working on Saturday, and then kill them, would you consider me to have acted righteously or unrighteously? Would I not be acting in obedience to God’s law? Furthermore, if I refused to kill them, then would I not be acting contrary to God’s law? I honestly am not sure how exegesis is supposed to help here - isn’t the meaning pretty clear? Do you support the death penalty for adultery? If my children curse me, and I fail to obey God’s law by having them executed, then what punishment do you think is appropriate for my disobedience?

[@retrograd332]

Great discussion gentlemen

[@deniseadkins2901]

Once again, thanks for doing this.

[@SerenityNow22]

This was really helpful 🙏🏻 Love & appreciate you guys & your ministries, keep it up!

[@samiam159007]

This was a really good talk right up until the very end.

[@graspunwrapped1124]

Theonomy seems like common sense after some moderate investigation, and seems like a crucial necessity in this 'windy' theological environment we're in now.

[@Im_No_Expert_72]

The theonomy as Doug describes it would be heaven on Earth. It would be perfect. Which is why it can never happen and will never happen apart from the millennial reign of Christ

[@SherrickDuncan]

It sure as all day is going to happen on the mobile floating island micronation that I am building on the ocean at the equator in the doldrums international waters.

[@benjib42]

I think Charles Leiter has a better understanding on the issue. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4XPoHVonrJ2rac

[@flamingswordapologetics]

These are good conversations, I lean New Covenant Theology, but it can be misinterpreted and abused.

[@Jemoh66]

Refreshing to finally hear fellow Evangelical theologians treat the law positively. A step in the right direction. Gentlemen, I have several comments. They require more side by I'll be as succinct as possible. First I'd like to say that from Matt 5:17, it's clear that Christ did not do away with the law in any reason. If Jesus said "I did not come to do away with the law" it follows that "I came to fulfill the law" cannot be made to signify that he did away with the law or any part of it. Furthermore, from the record of Acts, the Apostles never abandoned their ceremonial duties. They kept the feasts, they fulfilled vows as prescribed, etc... This they did for 40 years with no sense of conflict with the Gospel. Secondly, even though they themselves kept law and the traditions, they did not require the gentile believers to be yoked to the law as they were. Yet Paul's instruction for gentile believers is taken directly from the law. In fact one can find nine of the ten commandments being laid upon gentile believers. Interestingly, the only Sabbath based teaching occurs in an epistle written exclusively to Jews (Hebrews). Thirdly, I think the apostles saw their teaching as "fulfilling the law" as they used a measure of application appropriate to each class of believer. For Paul, requiring circumcision for Gentile believers would be "abrogating the law".

[@Descriptor_]

I like this era where they just threw Doug in a closet on a zoom call.

[@marybrewer2203]

Listening as I’m cooking supper. I had to chuckle a bit, because we have actually sung “I Won’t Back Down” by Tom Petty at our church. (We are ‘different’.)

[@SJQuirke]

this is so uplifting - and challenging

[@stevefitzgerald846]

Seems to me like these men will be keeping the 7th day sabbath soon...... it has been a marvelous blessing to me for 30 years now.....

[@gregb6469]

Our Sabbath rest today is in Christ, not in any particular day of the week.

[@wesparsons5331]

This was really good guys, more of this would be appreciated as there is a drought of this kind of content for the majority of Christians. Pastor White, could you please link your series on the law? Cheers👍

[@benjib42]

I think Charles Leiter has a better understanding on the issue. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4XPoHVonrJ2rac

[@ehudsdagger5619]

I wonder if Dr. White or Mr. Wilson could give us some book recommendations on this topic? Anything out there an inquiring mind could read (other than sacred Scripture) to help flesh some of this stuff out a bit more?

[@Cinnamonbuns13]

Mission of God by Joe Boot. Basically anything by Rushdoony or James B. Jordan

[@IAmisMaster]

Greg Bahnsen’s Theonomy in Christian Ethics

[@gordo191]

The great controversy is an excellent book

[@tesseract535]

Tools of Dominion by Gary North

[@6969smurfy]

53:20 with out the Milk ie Torah you can't get to the Honey. An Open Book without Knowlage of Torah leads to BAD things...

[@Jonathanped]

Douglas rocking those broken headphones taped together.

[@duncescotus2342]

"Do you not know that the law has authority over a man (only) so long as he lives (is alive)?"

[@kreendurron]

We need more sweater vesties

[@dragandragic6601]

Really great... Thank you

[@marcuswilliams7448]

I would consider it a modern day miracle if James White makes it through a dialogue without mentioning some debate he's done at some point in his life.

[@owolabipaul4623]

Lol

[@rk-mq1ct]

And yet you keep clicking on his videos to watch. You sound jealous

[@afterdarkness-light]

Of course! That's his calling and that's what he does! It's his ministry.

[@Jeremy-vf7su]

Anyone know where I can find the sermon series James White mentioned at 5:40?

[@roadcaster9801]

Doug, in light of your position at 39:44 can I ask why the Sabbath is then not observed by mainstream Christianity? My position which I believe to be scriptural, is that God's Sabbath never changed.

[@6969smurfy]

Edict 321ad

[@roadcaster9801]

@@6969smurfy Scriptiure, not edicts

[@6969smurfy]

@@roadcaster9801 huh you ask why main stream Christianity does not acknowledge the Sabbiths, correct? It's very simple to see that the Edicts that Constantine inforced! Changing the Sabbath to Sunday, changing the Feast to the Pagen adopted holidays, plus destroying all their Scriptures... it's all there in black and white, 321AD 100% this is why main stream Christianity is following a Man maid Religion and Not YAH/Gods Will.

[@roadcaster9801]

@@6969smurfy Agreed and aware of the Edicts. I asked the question of Doug in the hope that it may cause him to challenge his present position and recognise the deception of man made doctrine.

[@chrispeters1918]

What is he talking about when he refers to the “T-Word” around 12:00

[@Grace17893]

Jesus will save us all

[@eltonron1558]

As a matter of obedience to faith, the ten commandments, are the law of the Christian. The last word, is the best word. Revelation 12:17,14:12 The law of the remnant.

[@saltydog7272]

Excellent response. Sad I’m the only thumbs up.

[@SheepofTheShepherd-nu3lz]

This also apply to the ones who believe in Water Baptism. That was an old Law and by Believe that Jesus or the Holy Spirit is the way of being Baptized(Matthew 3)

[@richardtallach7104]

A lot of the problems are with the penal law. The death penalty was related to the sacrificial system. If someone was deemed to have committed an offence with a high hand he had no sacrifice and therefore could be open to the death penalty (cf. Numbers 15:30 and surrounding verses). Also, someone could be cleared of suspicion of blood guiltiness not with the death of an animal, but with the death of the High Priest (Numbers 35:28 ) Double or more than double reparation and restoration for many offences and the death penalty for murder is much more straightforward.

[@6969smurfy]

Penal laws? What laws are these?

[@richardtallach7104]

@@6969smurfy Laws of punishment.

[@6969smurfy]

@@richardtallach7104 oh, I'm not seeing your piont I guess... for there is No Temple now, so they are instructions that makes it a Heart Matter.

[@richardtallach7104]

@@6969smurfy True. There is a change in the law. The judicial laws including penal laws only apply in a general equity way to the state (Westminster Confession 19:4) and it is disputed how they apply, if at all. The ceremonial law is abolished by the coming of Christ.

[@ForwardTalk]

How would James and Douglas apply Lev 19:27?

[@iglesiabiblicacristianaagu4591]

No mohawks.

[@newnessoflife9926]

the believer is justified apart from obedience to the law (Rom 4:6), no longer under condemnation and will live with God forever, but is given the law as God's pure wisdom to be happy in this life and be a blessing to others (i.e. live long on the earth as a result of obeying one's parents), even to have right governance in the public sphere.

[@dnzswithwombats]

Only 38 sermons in the series? Watering everything down is really getting out of hand.

[@jackuber7358]

😄👍🙏⛪

[@bradgodby7708]

Seeker sensitive clearly 😂

[@deniseadkins2901]

They're good. I've watched them all.

[@dnzswithwombats]

@@deniseadkins2901 you did? where can I find them? that sounds wonderful!

[@deniseadkins2901]

They are great. They are on James White's youtube channel. Alpha & Omega Ministries Under The Introduction to the Holiness Code. There is a play list.

[@Dandelion0962]

Heard said, by the bald headed one ”I’m lying but” at aprx.33:50

[@WhoisWorthy]

Love this but could you please get some warm lighting on White? He looked so pale. Help him.

[@Itsjustbeau]

WhoisWorthy He lives in Phoenix he never comes out in the daylight.

[@WhoisWorthy]

Beau Hill lol!

[@davejcampbe11]

Wilson has the camera, mic, and lighting dialled in. White could do with some White Balance.

[@danielnewman9772]

Whites at home; Wilson is in his studio. That is most of the problem I think

[@CanonPress]

KZbin comments are the best.

[@EdgeOfEntropy17]

Hey, I have a brother who studies film and has a cool camera, but what are your suggestions on how to fix the white balance? He uses a white card in front of the camera.

[@masterdaveedwards]

Thanks...I'm surrounded by people...Christian people that spout out the" under grace not under law" all the time and some of the more vocal ones have been women. The expression was " the law has been nullified" At which point I talked about heretics. Thanks again always appreciate the thoughtful work you two do...nice sweaters

[@MrVyrtuoso]

That we are under grace and not under law is as true as we get anything from Scripture. It's an error to take from this that being under grace means there is no law for believers to follow. It's just as erroneous however to read the whole counsel of OT and NT scripture and think that it's the Law of Moses that binds the believer when Paul's writings and Hebrews militantly contradict that assertion. Believers are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, which is not a legal system but the new life that begins at regeneration and continues in progressive sanctification by the Spirit. And what is directly prescriptive towards this sanctification is the new set of commands given to us in the whole of the NT writings, while the old Law- which has been done away with because the covenant in which the Law was its covenant terms and stipulations had become obsolete with the institution of the new covenant that fulfills Jeremiah's prophesy- remains instructive to us over the holiness of God and the nature of our evil that just our very exposure to the commandments in the Law can and does arouse us to violate the Law wherever we are inclined so that the remedy that saves us involves being free from that system of Law.

[@masterdaveedwards]

@@MrVyrtuoso Good points...it is something many Christians don't think very deeply about, so I find it tends to lead into some level of false teaching or out right heresy...is all I really ment. "The Spirit gives life"

[@billybob-wx2re]

i'm begging you guys, finish this conversation. i am so desperate i'm about to explode. 9 more hours of application would be a start.

[@robertdelisle7309]

Are Doug Wilson’s sweater vests made with blended fabrics? I don’t know of a NT verse that abrogates the OT law which forbade the blending of fabrics, so that law must be still in effect. Right?

[@BossBattle21]

The deutero canonicity may have something to do with the passage in Hebrews that states, that we have a better covenant and better promises. (Heb 8:6)

[@BossBattle21]

@Brad Bowers Oh, really? I'm willing to bet that Pastor Wilson would agree with RC Sproul and other like-minded theologians that all laws have moral implications. Therefore all of the dietary laws in the OT would need to be obeyed morally because choosing to ignore them would break the first two commandments. Yet, in Acts chapter 10 we have the Lord tell Peter to eat animals that would be "unclean" or "common" under the Mosaic law. The concept of keeping the law is the same, but what counts as immoral did in fact change.

[@BossBattle21]

@Brad Bowers Alright, just so we are clear. I am not encouraging immoral behavior. I agree that there is a clearly defined morality that is stated in both testaments. The contention that usually arises is where the line is drawn from the Old Testament to the New. (I also haven't seen this video in two months. I might have forgotten the whole context of my comment.) It seems to me that many Christians who subscribe to covenant theology/post-milennial eschatology pick and choose when to say that the OT law is a guide book and when it no longer matters. To the Israelite who was given the covenant at Mt Sinai it was all or nothing.

[@MrVyrtuoso]

The issue isn't whether on this side of Christ's cross the people who are united to Christ in faith (necessarily excluding 'covenant children' on the basis of their being born to parents who have faith rather than their own receipt of grace whereby they express their own possession of faith) do not have and are not under law. It's what law or system of law it is that they're under. And it is Paul and the writer of Hebrews that tell us it ain't the Law of Moses, which however we might wanna divide it over 3 aspects of moral, civil, and ceremonial comes as a package deal over which God demanded obedience to every single one so that all 613 stipulations are moral- and never mind that that Law was ever given only to Israel for covenant life from which the rest of the world was cut off, and yet the rest of the world was still under condemnation for being under another law that they've broken in Adam. Rather, it's the law prophesied by Jeremiah that God will write in the hearts and minds of His people, and this has been revealed to be the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, which is no legal system but a work of the Spirit that transfers one from death to life and progressively conforms the person to the image of Christ, to which conformity we were given a new set of commands that are revealed in the whole body of New Testament Scripture, far more difficult to obey than the Law of Moses so that they are impossible to obey if it weren't that God is the one who secures and guarantees obedience in the regeneration and sanctifying work He does upon a person. That said, I would welcome theonomy of the Covenant Theology variety as the new law for the US, because this Constitution is an abysmal failure in securing our rights, liberties, and sustaining righteousness...so long as we are not killed for holding to a baptist view of expressing the sign of the covenant, and we can freely work on Sundays and Saturdays as we want or need.

[@benjib42]

Nice answer. I think Charles Leiter has a better understanding on the issue. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4XPoHVonrJ2rac

[@Espressodragon36]

I would love to be able to hear the sermons on the holiness code.

[@therealweenis]

You can find it on SermonAudio dot com by searching for "Holiness Code for Today" and it's by James White.

[@retrograd332]

There is also a playlist on KZbin. Search James White holiness code. Same messages as the sermon audio minus one that was likely banned because it was on homosexuality.

[@montylane2488]

kzbin.info/aero/PLzOwqed_gET38HNI6V5U5k9NlKaHBfnZs

[@deniseadkins2901]

You can on the Alpha & Omega Ministries youtube channel. There is a playlist for them.

[@BillWalkerWarren]

He has his sweater on! This one has got to be good . ( not taking about James )

[@johnsteindel5273]

Regarding what if you believe only what the NT reiterates from the OT is in effect, then what about things like beastiality that aren't in NT won't people say the are ok? I'd say to that handle it the same way they would have in OT, which didn't cover every single expression or act of a sinful heart. Application of principles and wisdom is needed now as it was then

[@bernie868]

This is great. Isn't it the CURSE of the law that has been done away with in Christ. (grace liberates us). And... For the law is "perfect" and it was FLESH that was imperfect and we couldn't keep the law.

[@TheMaineSurveyor]

Exactly. Galatians 5 gets to the heart of this.

[@6969smurfy]

Totah is not Laws do to, No Temple here on earth. We are to Torah, keep it in our Hearts as wittnessed over and over again. ECC 12 13 When all has been heard, the conclusion of the matter is this: FEAR GOD and KEEP His COMMANDMENTS, because this is the WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. 1 tim 1:5 Now the PURPOSE of the COMMANDMENTS is LOVE from a pure HEART, from a good conscience, and from SINCERE faith, Duet 30 10 if you OBEY the LORD your God and keep his COMMANDS and DECREES that are written in this Book of the Torah/Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your HEART and with all your SOUL. Proverbs 3 3 Let know LOVING commitment ant TRUTH forsake you-bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your HEART. 2 cor 3 3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ DELIVERED by us, written not with ink but with the SPIRIT of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human HEARTS. Ezekiel 11 19-20 And I will give them one HEART, and a NEW SPIRIT I will put within them. I will remove the HEART of stone from their flesh and give them a HEART of flesh, that they may walk in "my statutes" and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my "PEOPLES", and I will be their God. Jer 31 33 But this is the COVENANT that I will make with the HOUSE of ISRAEL after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my TORAH within them, and I will write it on their HEARTS. And I will be their God, and they shall be my PEOPLES Hebrews 10 16 This is the COVENANT I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my TORAH/ law in their HEARTS, and I will write them on their MINDS.” Daniel 7 28 Hitherto is the END OF THE MATTER. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I KEPT the MATTER in my HEART Eph 6:6 - not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as BONDSERVANTS of Christ, doing the WILL of God from the HEART, Isaiah 56 6-7 And FOREIGNERS who bind themselves to the LORD to minister to him, to LOVE the name of the LORD, and to be his SERVANTS, all who KEEP the SABBITH without desecrating it and who hold fast to my COVENANT - these I will bring to my HOLY mountain and give them joy in my HOUSE of prayer. Their burnt offerings and SACRIFICES will be ACCEPTED on my altar; for my HOUSE will be called a house of prayer for all NATIONS.” ~Now you.can understand~ Rev 12-17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the COMMANDMENTS of God, and have the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ” Rev 14 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the COMMANDMENTS of God and the faith of Jesus Rev 22 14 Blessed are those washing their robes, that their right will be to the TREE OF LIFE, and they shall enter into the CITY BY THE GATES.

[@6969smurfy]

53:20 "a curious Christian with an Open Book" if you don't understand the Milk you can't get to the Honey. You must first learn the basics, Acts 15, keep reading it to the end. LEARN the writtings From YAH/GOD given to Mosses ie Torah on the Sabbiths...

[@NicholasproclaimerofMessiah]

11:38 What is the "T word"? Torah Keeping? I keep Torah; I can read Mathew chapter 5. I want to obey Messiah and walk as He walked.

[@HistoryNerd66]

Nicholas Whitmire, Proclaimer Of Messiah I believe it’s “Theonomist”

[@NicholasproclaimerofMessiah]

@@HistoryNerd66 Of course. Later the same day I watched AD talking mentioning Theonomy; if I watched the videos in reverse order I would have known. Thanks!

[@fernandoalarcon8534]

I love how you both preach the gospel. I just can't get the whole Calvinist perspective though.

[@JJvideoman]

What are you struggling with? :)

[@marlam8625]

Glad Wilson agrees that scripture, as Paul writes, is Old Testament👍🏻

[@caidtc4555]

Yes! Old and New. Paul claimed both.

[@marlam8625]

@@caidtc4555 2Tim 3:16 speaks of teachings of Paul during Timothy’s boyhood- when many of his epistles had not yet been written much less the list of which New Testament books were determined to be inspired. To say this verse somehow assumes the future assumes too much.

[@caidtc4555]

@@marlam8625 You are wrong about this. 2 Peter 3:15-16 Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. If they twist Paul as they do the rest of Scriptures it follows then that Pauline Epistles equals Scripture. To presume that the Apostles during new revelation, who make up the foundation of our faith along side the prophets, didn't know that their writing was inspired, or that Timothy was taught that only OT passages are good for every good work is laughable.

[@marlam8625]

2Pet 3:16’s author (possibly other than Peter) tells us that he, Peter, knows of multiple Pauline letters to the Church- (possibly Corinth, Rome, Ephesus- total number known to Peter not mentioned here) and is exhorting the faithful to whom Peter is writing, (likely the Church in Asia Minor) not to be deceived by what Paul specifically wrote to them- because Peter knows that some of what Paul writes is hard to understand. Peter is writing to this specific group at this specific time about what Paul wrote specifically to them and warning them. (Any assertion that he or any NT author is writing for an audience beyond those to whom he is addressing is eisogesis - and a reading ‘into the text’ something that is not there. In the second half of the verse, he exhorts the ‘scoffers’ and ignorant not to distort Paul’s writing to their own destruction- “as they do other scriptures”. Present tense ‘do distort’ in verse 16 means that they are currently distorting scripture- there is no evidence that this audience has any other writings this side of revelation, beyond that which Paul wrote them- And since we know that they ‘do distort’ scripture, it can only logically follow that Peter is speaking of OT scripture. We know this because 2Pet predates the determination of the NT canon- the decided list of books that make up the NT scriptures. Any ‘futuristic’ gymnastics to say these writings were pre-determined is a reading into the text what is not there and a tradition with a small t.

[@caidtc4555]

@@marlam8625 Ah, now I see. Apostles and their writings are not inspired, but rather helpful whims and commentary on the Old Testament. Paul taught Timothy that only revelation from the Old Testament is inspired to equip the man of God for every good work. This begs the question of course because from your interpretation this means that 2 Timothy 3:16 is at best a tradition of man. And from what you just argued to assume that it has any authority or is written to you and me would be eisegesis. That is quite the assumption and self-refuting. Of course 2 Peter came from Peter. Coming from your perspective, I could see why you would ignore 2 Peter 1:1-2 as inspired and go at it from a liberal theological approach. From the way you are arguing, I would assume you might lean Hebrew Roots, and I assure you, liberal theologians do not agree with anything you stand for. You are like the Muslim who quotes Dr. Bart Ehrman to score points on a debate against Christianity. If they are twisting Paul's words as they do the rest of Scripture it follows that Pauline Epistles are Scripture. I need you to actually engage with this instead of presenting what you think logically follows. It does not. I will allow the readers of this rabbit hole to decide.

[@marlam8625]

To take it back a step further, couldn’t Luthers issues in the areas of abuses have been ‘bugs’ and not ‘features’? Maybe a case of autonomy here where theonomy would have been inline with Gods law of unity.

[@Dandelion0962]

Love none but The AllMightY Loving Life Creator 1st, 2 be of like minds 4 loving your neighbors in truth, 2 be seen as LawFull servers in selves

[@chrisc414]

I honestly don't understand what the difference is between a theonomist and a westminster theonomist. I'm a theonomist and I believe in the general equity of the law too, and so did Bahnsen. Are there theonomists who went beyond that, besides those who held to the dietary laws of the ceremonial law? (I realize the ceremonial law is a different issue). But what theonomists are actually saying we need a fence around our roof?

[@retrograd332]

There are those who think that all old testament laws need to be observed still as exactly as written. No general equity. I forget what they are called now. It was a movement not to long ago but died quickly.

[@hushai5154]

The difference is often a matter of semantics.

[@honey2badger]

Does anyone know James white opinion on tithes for today? Does he say it's a commandment for us to follow today or give under the new testament rules?

[@duncescotus2342]

Why don't we all do a little exercise? Instead of justifying ourselves, let's all pick a law that we're not obeying and think on it for a while. Me, I lack humility, have a unbridled tongue and and I'm full of anger (which works not the righteousness of God). So that's 3, but you get the idea.

[@samanthagraveswalters8443]

I love Leviticus

[@samiam159007]

My favorite part of this talk was when James White called the execution of a spouse defacto divorce. Welcome to Marriage Permenance! The exception clause in Matthew 5 and 19 is in reference to the defacto divorce James is referencing... though I'm sure he wouldn't agree with me.

[@briancasey4917]

Henry Drummond in an exegesis of 1 Corinthians 13 and the ten commandments wrote something like this. If a man should so love God it would not occur to him to disobey God's commands as he loves God's law completely. I think of that as holiness.

[@alleadonai]

I went into the messianic movement because the modern church's explaination of the Law seemed to come with a hand wave and it didn't seem right considering how God and Jesus spoke of it. That uninformed assertion pushes people towards works-based theologies that threaten the sufficiency of the sacrifice of the savior. The law still applies because it is His. Grace applies over that through the blood of Christ and as His followers we should study the Law; because if you don't understand what it illustrated you're likely to dismiss it entirely as somehow null and void.

[@josuepizarro5721]

I love the sweater vest tradition. Unfortunately it's pretty hot to wear those in Florida so I'll just stick to my bowties! 😎😎

[@johnwurfel2862]

Wear a fishing vest instead. It still gives you a +5 bonus when fishing for men, has a tactical look to hide all your boogaloo commander things, and smells better than the 1% Biker vest.

[@cre8vedesign]

Can you recommend a couple books that explain the difference in the law (moral, ceremonial, etc)? That can help me as I go through the OT.

[@shellyslioneyes]

The moral law is 10 commandments which Jesus and the rich man recited to Jesus yet loved his riches too much therefore he was committing the sin of idolatry and loving his riches more than the first commandment and wasn't aware of it. Ceremonial laws are in Leviticus - hand washing, etc which Pharisees accused Jesus' disciples of not doing. Not for cleanliness but Pharisees did over and over plus they made up some more. Moral law includes Matthes 5-7 where Jesus took us "higher" - such as "even lusting a woman in your heart is adultery." This doesn't mean "noticing a nice looking woman" it is a longer looking gaze and thoughts such as David did with Bathsheba which led to having sex with her, her getting pregnant, calling her husband home from war, and ultimately having him killed. This lust of heart leads to more and more sin. The ceremonial law was for the Jews. Moral laws are for us all. Study Matthew 5-7. Study New Testament. The 10 commandments are covered in there. I hope this helps. Btw, Jesus is throughout the Old Testament. I bought a Bible on Amazon that shows me all passages related to Jesus and was fulfilled in New Testament. Also, although he's not reformed, Mike Winger does a great study called "Finding Jesus in the Old Testament." Look his name and that title up on KZbin on Google. It is like a Scarlet Thread starting in Genesis 3:15. It is so exciting to find Jesus, and see him in the Old Testament. He is there. Everywhere. It is so exciting and makes the Old Testament so exciting. I'd love Dr. White to do a study with the Hebrew roots. Okay, I'm done. I hope that helps. God bless you!

[@benjib42]

I think Charles Leiter has a better understanding on the issue. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4XPoHVonrJ2rac

[@rororoFGC]

So we keep the sabbath?

[@johnsteindel5273]

What do you think about this: I would appeal to the law of love, as given us by Christ and his apostles, not to a general equity from the Law. the parapet and lawnmower examples would elicit the same response from a Christian from applying the NT teachings alone. since the law is teaching us how to love, the teachings of the NT will comport. And how to divide up the law into those 3 parts falls under the same category for me - who is the authority to tell me which is which, and what is the continuous part? I'll read the teachings of Christ and His apostles to tell me. I suppose this is generally a new covenant understanding.

[@harryabrahams2770]

Paul was specifically referring to the Torah when writing to Timothy. The first five books are the foundation that the rest are built on. The Truth shall set you free is referring to a transcendent truth not a general statement of truth. Ps. 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness Your Torah is the Truth. That is the Word of Truth Paul is referring to. Got Torah Got Truth

[@missaleromanum5614]

How does this pertain to acts 15 and the 'Jerusalem Council'? The question is asked, do the Gentiles need to follow the law of moses? The assumption being that the Jewish converts are already following the law. You would not ask whether the gentiles need to follow the law, unless the Jewish converts were already following it. Also, in acts 21, Paul is instructed by James to show all the people that he is still following the law by partaking in a Nazirite ceremony. How can it be that the ceremonies and sacrifices of the law have been abrogated, yet Christians in those early days are apparently still following them?

[@6969smurfy]

Good questions, Only YAH can open eyes to see... All they have to do is get by thier Self and Ask for Father Creators help on The Matter