The Trinity & Patriarchy / James White and Douglas Wilson / Sweater Vest Dialogues

[@systemrevolt7309]

So blessed by these two men speaking together. I have learned so much from both of them.

[@carmensiekierke3579]

Doug Wilson : "Fully God and fully man in Chalcedon." Correction: "Truly God and Truly man." During the 2017 Q&A at Ligonier, Dr. John MacArthur answered "fully God and fully man," and Dr. R. C. Sproul had to correct him. It's important. If you say Jesus is fully God, you leave no room for His humanity. If you say fully man, you leave no room for His deity. Dr. MacArthur: "Well, that's what I meant to say." Dr. Sproul, "Johnny Mac, why am I always having to tell you what you meant?" Dr. MacArthur mentioned this as one of his fondest memories of R.C. at his funeral.

[@HeLivesForever25]

Interesting distinction. I would not use it. Fully God and Fully man reflects the hypostatic union. Fully God and fully man also shows that Jesus is 100% both, not 50% each. To me this is an argument over definitions. Fully and truly are not synonyms, but both are true.

[@carmensiekierke3579]

@@HeLivesForever25 Doug Wilson said "in Chalcedon." The Chalcedonian Creed ( A.D. 451) is "truly God and truly man." You do realize this, right?

[@HeLivesForever25]

I am responding to the claim within the paragraph which says "if you say Jesus is fully God, you leave no room for his humanity." That is what I was responding to.

[@carmensiekierke3579]

@@HeLivesForever25 That's what the Council of Chalcedon said. Dr. Sproul didn't make that up as his personal opinion.

[@HeLivesForever25]

@@carmensiekierke3579 If you will note in my comments, I did not speak of Dr. Sproul or the council. I addressed the argument only. It doesn't matter to me who said it. I disagree with the argument and I was addressing that, and that alone.

[@pastormarkm]

This was truly a spiritual steak dinner here. Thank you to both of you.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

Quite meaty!!

[@Apol-los]

32:00 "When The Father speaks, the word of The Father is The Son."

[@shalompatole5710]

Profound!! Isn't it ? WOW I had never thought of it that way. Mind blown.

[@einarabelc5]

Weird huh? Pretty much.

[@chrisc414]

I wish this could just be a weekly thing.

[@Chirhopher]

While these are both very busy men, We should still push for such an Edifying Idea! How great would it be to see these two Brothers dialogue regularly.

[@BasedRedBeard]

Dr. White needs to be one of the one's interviewed in the next season of Man Rampant.

[@Navarrator10]

Low and behold....👌🏼👌🏼

[@matthewmanucci]

I couldn’t be happier about this video. I am new to Reformed Theology (a little under a year) and I was recently accused by some people in the Reformed Pub of ESS heresy because I had said that a proper understanding of the Trinity can give us a good context of how we interact between male and female, father and son and other sorts of relationships. I have never heard of ESS and I was shocked at how everyone was jumping on me for it. When I tried to explain that I didn’t understand the accusations because I never heard of it, rather than explaining it to me, I was interrogated on a bunch of theology questions that were related to the topic I just said I didn’t know anything BF about, at which point I left the conversation. This helped me understand a little bit what they were talking about.

[@bh5cp]

Matt Mannucci Haha, why would you even go to the Reformed Pub?

[@helicam1234]

Matt Mannucci - Yeah, I think they are eating themselves alive. I've never joined up, due to their awful reputation.

[@larsonhicks]

The reformed pub is ridiculous. They remove any conversations they don’t like - even healthy, productive conversations. It’s really frustrating.

[@AaronShafovaloff1]

Check out this blog article by Denny Burk: www.dennyburk.com/the-sons-willing-submission-to-the-father-in-the-pactum-salutis/ It helps fine-tune the issue to avoid the more controversial "ad intra" claims.

[@Fernandohernandez-ys4qq]

Join The “Reformed Presuppositional Apologetics” group bruh! We don’t accuse, we try to reason with you properly and plus you will learn a lot of Reformed Theology and Van Tillian Presup!

[@Vetforlife]

I really enjoy listening these two brothers talk. Hope they will do it more often.

[@sarahm725]

Two of my favorites! PLEASE make this weekly!

[@Cotyblack]

Yep. Heard a pastor preach “Partialism Patrick” just recently.

[@SarinTheBaron]

I love how a Lutheran meme video has become one of the most helpful and succinct methods of communicating about the Trinity/Trinitarian heresies. God has a sense of humor that is A++.🤣

[@Ttcopp12rt]

Great video and teaching

[@rayortiz6189]

sweater vest dialogues! thats great

[@CaseyCovenant]

Pastor Doug Wilson, please release your works on the Trinity and what you've said about EFS in a book.

[@traceylok675]

Excellent discussion. Feeling so blessed.

[@hotrodchriscam8198]

How blessed are we to have these two men engaged in conversation! Thos is now the second one with these two men of renown. In the wake of big eva going left it we can be encouraged that it has left men like these to come together and really bless the church in a true Spirit of unity, eating the curds of God's fruit from learned men! Thank you for doing these!

[@EricBadong]

Had to grab a headache pill while listening to these two greats talk.

[@VincentStewartJr]

As always great discussion gentlemen. Really thankful for both you gentlemen. Can you post the link for the ESS affirmations and denials paper? I would love to read it. Thanks so much!

[@andrewthorpe5987]

Thank you! Please have another conversation sooner rather than later.

[@MrPruijssen]

Great! Insightful. Thanks!

[@rayburton5300]

Doug is referring to "An unpublished essay on the Trinity". I found it in an old volume called "A treasury of evangelical writings". The essay is available online and is a truly marvelous thing That I have copied many times and given to people

[@jameshughes2911]

These sweater vest dialogues are awesome.

[@nathanweisser]

Oh heck yeah, this is the best. Marketing team is on point here.

[@ceciliaramos2280]

My mother has been gone since 2005. I can still hear her voice

[@logansweet4190]

I'm sorry. I know things like that are hard. Lean on the Lord for strength. Read and pray through the Psalms

[@theclassicalpost]

Please keep these coming!

[@libbydaddy8610]

"yt controversies are you involved with at one time?" "They oscillate." very funny

[@fredanderson5278]

Does anyone have a link to the position paper Pastor Wilson refers to at about 33:50?

[@fredanderson5278]

Found it on pages 14-20 at www.crechurches.org/interactive/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/2019-Knox-Presbytery-Minutes-FINAL-11-04-19.pdf

[@biggy3137]

I'd like to hear a more in depth explanation of the image of God not being individual humans but man and woman together. Wilson has mentioned this a few times in videos but he is the first I've heard say this. Does it suggest that individuals are not made in the image of God. Am I hearing something he isn't saying?

[@carmensiekierke3579]

I'd like to hear Doug Wilson answer that question also. Christian Reconstructionism ( dominionism) takes the Covenant of Works that God made with Adam and thinks the Great Commission is the same.....one of dominionsim. Here's an article by a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. 9marks.org/article/can-a-single-person-fully-image-god/

[@edbenjamin5136]

I am sure you know this the basis is Genesis. In Genesis God makes man in their image, male and female, and gives them both dominion: "26 Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Genesis 5 is the second time it is mentioned: "On the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them “mankind” on the day when they were created." We know the eternal destiny of all believers is to be a kingdom of priests (1 Peter 2; Revelation 1; Revelation 5) and they judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:3). Humans will be like the angels, not given in marriage (Mark 12:25). This indicates they are both equally made in the image of God. Treasure/honor/crowns in heaven are not based on gender, nor are the spiritual gifts gender specific since God distributes individually by the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:11). Reward is based on what one does in this life individually. Logically, if it took both man and woman together to express God's likeness than Paul would not have encouraged celibacy to devote oneself wholly to the Lord's work.

[@fanman8102]

An excellent discussion. The most profound thing that was said? “June bugs doing physics.” We can try to understand the Trinity but to actually believe you understand the Trinity is hubris especially since this doctrine was created 300 years after Christ’s death. Why bother arguing about the pre creation relationship of the Trinity when the Scriptures doesn’t detail that relationship at all? It just is. June bugs doing physics; yep!

[@Chirhopher]

Keepem comin!

[@thangminlensingson4221]

Any books on biblical patriarchy? Suggest!

[@snowflakeeel]

Well it was enlightening to hear such deep explanation covering 2/3 of the Trinity. I'm quite thirsty to hear such discussion covering the relationship and function and personhood of the Holy Spirit. Something far less often taught.

[@malachi7948]

There is only one saviour, not three. Who is that saviour? The Lord our God is one Lord. Who is your one and only Lord as a Christian? It is he in whom ALL the FULNESS of the Godhead dwelleth bodily; The LORD Jesus Christ. KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Before him was never any God formed neither shall there be after him any other God. JESUS CHRIST IS GOD IN ALL FULNESS, not in 1/3rd or in parts.

[@jackgtx440]

@@malachi7948you have a woeful understanding of the Trinity.

[@wortzentriert]

Keep this up! Good stuff!

[@Acek-ok9dp]

46:56-47:01 Also what Western trinitarian theologies distinguishes from the Eastern ones ist that in the Latin Western theologies, the economy of the Trinity reflects it's eternal processions ad intra to some degree, while in the East the "oikonomia" doesn't necessarily reflect the eternal state, therefore the filioque is denied, because the Son‘s sending of the Spirit happens in creation, not eternally

[@anselman3156]

I think the Western understanding is of the Holy Ghost being the love between the Father and the Son, so proceeding eternally from both.

[@Acek-ok9dp]

anselman Well, what I'm saying is what distinguishes them more generally or paradigmatically. In the East the very way they think and conceive about the Trinity is different, because they conceive of the relationship between God in Himself and the economy differently hence also the essence-energies distinction (strong distinction between God himself and his acts). The "nexus amoris" (bond of love) in which the Holy Spirit is the bond between the Father and the Son, is Western and particularly Augustine's conception. It is true that Eastern theologians generally reject such a conception (see J. Zizioulas), but that's a particular disagreement which flows from the paradigmatic and metaphysical difference posited above.

[@anselman3156]

@Rodrick Evans The Holy Ghost is God. God is love. Do you have a difficulty with that?

[@TheCynicogue]

I heard you to were debating soon? Is that true? If so, when and where? Also, what's the thesis?

[@rockycomet4587]

Fight, fight, fight, fight, fight!

[@readthewordwithme7063]

What books would be good to read on the trinity? The hypostatic union?

[@pizzahypeftw9039]

the forgotten trinity by James white is one of the best.

[@shirinn890]

Bible read john gospel with prayer

[@joelcooper2507]

Incredibly useful! Thank you so much.

[@j2kp0t]

I'm wondering if their might be a "hypostatic union" of sorts that accounts for the will of the Father and the will of the Son and the will of God.

[@peteryang2067]

Doug and White make a good team 🧐🧐

[@abebe407]

Wow, God bless you. Can you explain Romans 1:3-4 "according to the spirit of holiness"

[@geneadams9017]

I struggle with the terminology of "Persons" in the Godhead. The very same early church scholars who originally employed the previously unused term "Persons" were clear that they were not employing the word "Persons" as it would usually be defined and employed. God is ONE God: a Spirit who is also "seven spirits." He is also "one (who) sat on the throne.” (Revelation 4:2)

[@benharris7913]

Please do a conversation Wilson's reasoning for choosing the KJV/Byzantine text type.

[@dennisking4589]

Doctrines are never left out or changed in the KJV....for example contrast 1 Timothy 3:16 in the KJV and the NASB, etc....

[@stockdj714]

www.amazon.com/dp/B075KZQD4J/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

[@LeoRegum]

Indeed, they already debated this in print.

[@benharris7913]

@@stockdj714 Thanks! Definitely putting this in my wishlist.

[@beowulf.reborn]

"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God," ~ Romans 1:19-21a [ESV] In light of Romans 1, how can we say that God's invisible attributes, eternal power, and Divine Nature cannot be clearly perceived? If we cannot teach these things "clearly" to children, by using nature, if they are revealed, "in the things that have been made" ? Again, from the NASB, "His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made,"

[@hushbimbo9395]

@bob 42255 read Acts 8:37 from the NIV

[@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev]

"Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life." I Peter 3:7

[@beowulf.reborn]

In Psalm 42:5, and again in verse 11, the Psalmist commands his own soul to Hope in God.

[@timdodenhoff7942]

When all things are subjected to him, then the Son will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28 What of this scripture?

[@johntobey1558]

These guys should start a Seminary in Philadelphia, Pa called Log College, and start amd endowed Chair called the William Tennet Chair of Reformed Theology. Rock on dudes.

[@marcuswilliams7448]

A reference from James White regarding his assertion that Lutherans understand Philippians 2 in connection with the foot washing in the upper room would be appreciated. I've never heard this. I'm fairly certain Luther did not assert anything like this. In his sermon On Two Kinds of Righteousness, Luther takes "form of a servant" as referring to Christ's state of humiliation from his conception to his burial and "form of God" as reference to Christ's state of glorification from his descent into hell to all eternity. I'd like to know who White has in mind when he makes this assertion.

[@kylekutasi950]

Marcus Williams Luther and Lutheranism are not the same thing.

[@marcuswilliams7448]

@@kylekutasi950 What is your point?

[@kylekutasi950]

Marcus Williams you asked the question.

[@marcuswilliams7448]

@@kylekutasi950 Yes. And you didn't answer it. Lutheranism and Luther are obviously not the same. I'm asking for some citation from a Lutheran source (of which Luther would obviously be one) that asserts "form of a servant" has as its referent the scene of the foot washing in John 17.

[@kylekutasi950]

Marcus Williams again, your assumption that Luther is necessarily a source of Lutheranism is incorrect. If it were so, Lutherans would be Calvinistic and wouldn’t be baptismal regenerates.

[@jeanniestaller797]

Regarding men and women; I just look at all the examples in the Bible of women's roles, not just an isolated statement or two that can be taken out of context. Regarding how to commemorate your mother passing, my mother passed over 41 yrs ago. Each year I make note of the date in my mind, think of her and mention it to others.

[@richardtallach7104]

The complete equality of the ontological Trinity points to the equality of Man, Woman and Child. The economic Trinity points to the subordination of Woman to Man and Child to Man and Woman.

[@duncescotus2342]

I love discussions of the Trinity that really don't need the Holy Spirit. Hint, Cessationist.

[@ConciseCabbage]

44:45 - regarding the “how”s, I find it humorous how people are so quick to call out “heretics” when all they are trying to do is figure out the “how”. Classic example is Sergei Bulgakov.

[@logansweet4190]

If figuring how leads to heresy and has for nearly 2 millennia it's best to understand that we can't understand because we aren't God.

[@carmensiekierke3579]

Will Dr. James White ever question Doug Wilson on Federal Vision baptismal regeneration?

[@matthewmanucci]

Carmen Siekierke what about the debate they did 15 years ago?

[@Rhuanjl]

Aside from the debate they’ve done on baptism this was also touched on in their last dialogue.

[@carmensiekierke3579]

@@Rhuanjl I did watch the last dialogue. Do you happen to remember what Doug Wilson said about baptismal regeneration? It isn't Presbyterian or Reformed.

[@carmensiekierke3579]

@@matthewmanucci Yes, I watched that debate several times. Doug Wilson said he considered Roman Catholics to be Christians. Considering Dr. White has said infant baptism is a leftover from Rome, he isn't the best person to address FV baptismal regeneration. Presbyterian and Reformed do not teach baptismal regeneration.

[@Airic]

Proverbs 8:22 defends Arianism... I'm an Arian Postmillennialist, so of course Doug and James are top 5 pastors for me (along with Jeff Durbin) for their Postmill POV... but *SERIOUS QUESTION* ... how can we keep ignoring early Church fathers like Tertullian (who was the originator of the term "Trinity") and Origen who both aligned closer with the Arian view more than the Nicene view, not to mention Eusebius who baptized Constantine as an Arian on his deathbed, and somehow 2K+ years later we still dismiss Arius/Arianism as heresy? When the validity for this theology is heavily supported in scripture AND early church leaders... I feel like Muslims and non-believers who struggle with accepting the gospel will come on board A LOT easier if Arianism was an optional denomination, but instead we're pushing them away with our imperfect human comprehension of God's existence. I really wish I can interview Doug, James and Jeff about this... 😔

[@EJMJensen]

Romans 8.9-11 supports Trinity. Baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, supports Trinity. Origin held many heretical beliefs and shouldn't be looked to as a standard of Christian orthodoxy. Please provide other proof sources for Arianism. The Church at large was so alarmed by antiTrinitarianism of Arians that they had a council. The Church at large.

[@Airic]

​@@EJMJensen like i said, Tertullian and Eusebius are other examples of Arian views... and Origen is often cited by Nicene Christians for his contributions as an early Church father, so respectfully, you're merely cherry picking to discredit him, don't forget that even Luther was officially declared a "heretic" as well by Pope Leo X, Pope Pius XL, etc. ... so that word "heretic" is grossly misused. The theologian who first coined the term “the Trinity” was Tertullian (written in 213 AD to explain and defend the Trinity against the Monarchian heresy), and he said: "For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole" (source: "Against Praxeas", Chapter 9). Constantine supposedly won his battle for Rome with a prophesy from Yeshua which lead to the legalizing of Christianity etc. but yet, he NEVER got baptized until his deathbed and requested the Arian bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia to perform it in 337 AD - on top of that, his monument built in remembrance of that battle (Arch of Constantine) had NO Christian symbolism anywhere! It was instead very pagan! This is proof how he truly felt during 325 AD Council (wasn't a full believer yet) and at the end of his life was leaning towards what he saw as the true form: Arianism. *The Church at large* was actually VERY CLOSE to signing the FIRST DRAFT of the Nicene Creed which Arius and everyone else in attendance was onboard with EXCEPT ATHANASIUS... Athanasius was so determined to defeat Arius that he insisted on rewriting the creed to include the term "Homoousious", he basically sowed a fabric of division in the church with that assertion, and we're still trying to untangle that 2K+ years later... remember, the Reformation was only 500 years ago, the Church is still maturing and unraveling the damage done by Catholics. Lastly, the tables turned later on before Arius was murdered during the reign of Emperor Constantius II (337-361 AD), who was sympathetic to the Arian doctrine. Under his rule, Arianism became the dominant religion in the Eastern Roman Empire, and many Nicene Trinitarians were persecuted or exiled. Eventually, the political feud reversed once more when Arianism began to decline after the death of Constantius II, and it was finally suppressed with ‘The Council of Chalcedon’ in 451 AD. Arianism is not heretical.

[@rayturnermusic]

Aren't two wills in perfect accord in fact one will? Is this not the essence of love? God is love? Is this not why unity is so powerful? Did not Jesus pray that we his people and God all be one? God is one.

[@wilsonhunter7496]

Very interesting conversation. Doug’s approach is more nuanced than James. I think James is rightfully sensitive to the potential Arianism of ESS because of his Muslim and Mormon apologetic experience (like he acknowledges here), but in the intra-reformed conversation there needs to be acknowledgement of the potential modalistic errors of the more dogmatized anti-ESS view.

[@malachi7948]

9:02 Praise God, the Christians who believe the prophets and the holy scriptures will never be tritheists. Jesus Christ is the one and only God who took on flesh, our Lord and Master, the LORD, GOD OF GODS, messiah in the form of a servant.

[@toddstevens9667]

This ESS debate seems ridiculous to me. It seems that both sides of the debate simply use logical inferences to make their points. Neither side can point to a Bible verse or passage that specifically and clearly supports their position. That’s because there isn’t one. These arguments over issues that the Bible does not address have no point whatsoever. We have absolutely no way of knowing precisely what sort of relationship each member of the Godhead had with each other member of the Godhead prior to the creation of our universe. God would have to tell us for us to know. And He doesn’t. All this logical speculation means precisely nothing. We cannot reason our way to the answer to that question. God has revealed many things to us about the Trinity. We must believe what has been revealed to us about the Trinity in the Bible. But this arguing and fussing about trinitarian relationships that have not been revealed to us strikes me as the striving about words to no profit, which Timothy was specifically warned against in 2 Timothy 2. It was interesting to me while reading the comments and replies on this video how often logic and philosophy is appealed to, rather than Bible verses or passages. That’s a real problem.

[@malachi7948]

Jesus Christ is the LORD, the one and only God who dwelt among us in totality in fleshly form; taking upon himself the form of a servant. Had he already been a servant, God forbid this despicable blasphemy, then this would have been unremarkable, yet it is our Lord and Master who took on the form of a servant. His humanity is created, it is distinct from his divinity and is subject to it, yet his humanity and all divinity belongs solely to him. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 3:6 As he was in the earth, and as he is alive in heaven, all the fulness of the Godhead, not 1/3rd of it. And besides Jesus Christ there is no other God. If you do believe that Christ is He then you shall die in your sins. “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.” John 8:23-25 “Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.” Isaiah 41:4 “They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:” John 18:5-8 “Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.” Isaiah 43:10-12 “Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” John 14:9 “O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.” Psalm 136:1-6 “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.” John 1:10 “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 44:6 “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.” Revelation 22:12-13 “And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one” Zechariah 14:9 “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” Revelation 19:11-16 “I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.” Jeremiah 17:10 “And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.” Revelation 2:23

[@adamboyd5190]

Didn't MacArthur hold to a form of ESS awhile back then repented after facing down a heresy trial?

[@CanonPress]

Here's his statement rejecting ESS. Sounds like something he had thought in the early 80s and before. www.gty.org/library/articles/A235/reexamining-the-eternal-sonship-of-christ

[@AaronShafovaloff1]

@@CanonPress I think the issue then was incarnational sonship vs eternal sonship, not ESS.

[@verdevalley1966]

for james white-

[@Eotrejo956]

shared

[@brendabeasley7376]

John !7:5 gives light on sone of what ur talking about

[@wesparsons5331]

My head, my head! - me

[@beowulf.reborn]

"The issue is not, did God the Father send His Son to the Cross at Jerusalem, the issue is, did God the Father send His Son into the world?" ~ DW. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him." ~ Jesus. Yes, God the Father sent His Son into the world.

[@denverfletcher9419]

We see each of the persons of God subordinating themselves to each other, even at the baptism of Christ the Father speaks, saying; "this is my beloved son, ... hear Him!", not drawing attention to Himself but to Christ. The Spirit, says Christ, when He comes, does not speak His own words, but those words given to Him. Christ, of course, refers us to God the Father, urging us to pray to the Father, and so on ...

[@Acek-ok9dp]

Eternal subordination sounds like the fons deitatis (eternal monarchy of the Father) in a sense.

[@petroskelbiso8775]

38:55 lightning round:- mention new testament references of the deity of Christ. GO!

[@rockycomet4587]

There are so many to choose from!

[@dianehelena]

@.53 Dr. White: "I'm not sure that the Lord really designed us to have this amount of information coming at us at the speed that it comes at us all the time..." Good grief. How am I supposed to believe in the sovereignty of God in all things with remarks like that? :-(

[@DanielZander44]

Gotta love some casual EFS heresy in the comments

[@rockycomet4587]

And the ever-present anti-Trinitarian heretics! 🤣

[@AstariahJW]

Who are the true heretics?

[@Chirhopher]

As a note, here: We do believe that GOD Does Have Two Wills; HIS Sovereign Will that Absolutely Will Come To Pass as HE Carries All Things along to their intended destination by the Power of HIS Holy Word; the other Will of GOD Is HIS Prescribed and Commanded Will as Written in Holy Scriptures. But, The Tri-KADOSH TRIUNE יהוה YHWH Does Not have Two different Wills in the sense of The HOLY FATHER and The HOLY SON Disagreeing or Differing in Their [United] Will at Any Point, in ONE HOLY SPIRIT. The AMEN, HIMSELF, Amen. Ahmein.

[@solideogloria3962]

ChîRhôpher Lazarus what books could I read to get better clarity on this?

[@logansweet4190]

@@solideogloria3962 Read some stuff on refuting Monothelitism which I believe is the heresy that says there is literally only one will. Also think of Jesus in the garden saying "not My will but Yours be done".

[@cryptojihadi265]

Ummm, Jesus HIMSELF said "the Father is greater than I" and he did NOT come to do HIS will, but the will of His Father. They are One ONLY in that they are in perfect UNITY, not one as in the same being or entity. This is why Jesus could pray in John 17, "Father make them one, AS YOU AND I ARE ONE" Clearly he wasn't asking God to make them morph into some indescribable amalgamation of a being that we erroneously like to CLAIM God is.

[@verdevalley1966]

why is HOLY SPIRIT always left out of these talks ?

[@johnnybagofdoughnuts4193]

I’m not sure. It’s maddening

[@rockycomet4587]

Because the Holy Spirit was not the subject of discussion.

[@AstariahJW]

Cause it's not a person. Holy spirit is Gods power. He sends it our to accomplish his will . First century Christians were filled with the holy spirit . Jesus was baptized with the holy spirit. He was able to perform maracles with it

[@PurePuritan]

@@AstariahJW how does power speak ?

[@AstariahJW]

@@PurePuritan the same way it reveal information to jesus . He had Gods holy spirit on him Jehovah put words into his mouth At jesus baptism a dove ascended from heaven and holy spirit came upon jesus saying this is my beloved son Holy spirit was on the dove Doves dont actually speak

[@johntobey1558]

Two really great Evangelical scholarships swimming against tge tide of open theism and other popular hobby horses.

[@johntobey1558]

Keep the Trojan Horses at the gate. Well done modern day Nehemiah.

[@Acek-ok9dp]

The ESS folks were embarassing and they were shredded.

[@rockycomet4587]

But they were based AND redpilled.

[@Acek-ok9dp]

@@rockycomet4587 Yes, the pill of heterodoxy was so strong that it was red.

[@rockycomet4587]

@@Acek-ok9dp Do you know what redpilled means?

[@aservantofJEHOVAH7849]

The argument is made by some that because Jesus is called God ,he must be co equal with his God and Father. Well the prophet Moses is called God exodus7:1,also the holy angels ate called gods psalms8:5. Are the they also to be regarded as coequal with their God and Father.

[@jonathanvickers3881]

How do you read the book of Hebrews? What's your interpretation?

[@aservantofJEHOVAH7849]

The problem for trinitarians who try to use the Godman fudge to explain away Jesus' worship of his God and Father. Is that the resurrected (and hence post-incarnate Christ)continues to worship JEHOVAH as his God see revelation3:12.

[@rockycomet4587]

How is that a problem for"Trinitarians", aka Christians?

[@edwardaguilar6322]

So much talk about the Trinity’ on the net yet they miss the third equation of it THE HOLY SPIRIT;AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD MOVED UPON THE FACE OF THE WATERS, as little as I know I seek on the net for a clear answer ,what was it that took down the walls of Jericho,split the Red Sea ,talked through a donkey and many mysterious ? Is it an easy out to say the SPIRIT is in us ? I have learned a lot from both of you and have JESUS AS MY SAVIOR,have written many on this subject and feel bad that they cannot or will not answer or stick their necks out for saying and being called silly names,I am so glad to see both of you together,I stumbled into one that the other now I see the SPIRIT working to teach U.S. and the world

[@pilotandy_com]

29:53 - You can't make heads or tails of the idea of the Trinity, unless you are a Trinitarian in the first place. Hmm...

[@matthewgotham131]

Uh no, that's not what James White said at all. "Any of this" doesn't refer to the idea of the trinity but to the Bible texts he's discussing.

[@rms-vp6hf]

Andrew Craner @Matthew Gotham I pray blessing on your life sir. Taking these men out of the context they are speaking in IS the very definition of “bearing false witness”. Andrew should be ashamed and repent.

[@pilotandy_com]

The specific wording is "Trinitarian theology". You can click on the timestamp and hear it for yourself.

[@benedict331]

Yeah but “this” refers to the relationship between father, son and holy ghost.

[@pilotandy_com]

GOKUBENCH isn’t that what the Trinity is? Or do I have to believe in it before I can understand it?

[@michelhaineault6654]

the son cannot be eternally submit to the Father BECAUSE before is incarnation the son was I AM the everlasting Father who came among us in the form of a man thye nature of man is created for to be always under the Father will being begotten by the Father being the Father manifested in flesh as a man (as the sacrificial lamb) but the flesh cannot be equal with the Father but as the I AM Jesus was perfectly Elohim in flesh and not a second eternal being of a triune God (never teach)

[@JRRodriguez-nu7po]

Nicea is correct, Chalcedon is in error. The human nature of Christ is not eternal. Therefore changes in the relationship between the 2 natures of Christ is fact. Chalcedon went too far. Dr White is completely wrong about nothing in creation that parallels the submission of the Son as Paul cites marriage directly as such.

[@JRRodriguez-nu7po]

@@mosesking2923 Of course the Father has always been Father and Son always Son; "before" time was created by them and the Spirit. There's massive semantic confusion about Eternal Subordination. In no way am I denying the full and complete divinity AND incarnate humanity of Christ. What I deny is that Christ always had 2 natures. I wish I knew a more elegant expression but, "before time was created", the Son had only a divine nature. Therefore a change in the relationship of His 2 natures is clearly the case. Also, I do NOT believe there's sufficient clarity in Scripture to anathematize either Nestor or Eutichius. They may be wrong but some matters we need to be carful in declaring fully understood. Arianism IS a full heresy, and Nicea 1 is completely correct. Chalcedon went too far. When you declare victory after burning a straw man, all you do is spread smoke and make dialogue less clear.

[@JRRodriguez-nu7po]

@@mosesking2923 Nestorius was not a nestorian and the coptics which have many wrong theologies such as rank idolatry are not truly monophytes. Nestorius was slandered by the kind of straw man arguments often made. AFTER Nicea 1, the joining of state and Church produced political and monetary gain for those who could skillfully misuse language against their political rivals. It took a generation for truly faithful bishops who had endured persecution to be increasingly replaced by money and power hungry wolves. Not much later, the prostitute Theodora helped her weak husband retain the throne at Byzantium and immediately brought in full rank idolatry in the form of icons. I have not been seminary trained, nor have any formal studies in any kind of history degree. I happen to be a biochemist and professor of medicine so I know a tiny bit about single carbon human metabolism which PROVES the earth is less than 100K years old (probably less than 10K but I speak only of the science I am trained in. I mention this to be clear that I am extremely ignorant of ante nicene patristics. But I don't burn straw men. What little I read, I read carefully. For the most part I get my theology from watching anime, or listening to old soft rock songs. Sometimes, if I am terribly bored, I will read a little bit of the Bible. I do try to keep my Bible reading to a minimum because it is a very dangerous book; easily slaying the arrogant like me. The Bible though is THE most exciting set of books I know, The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls, and tenement halls. For most of history the majority of the visible Church hierarchy has been a parade of wolves in sheep's clothing as predicted by Christ and Paul. Be careful believing the experts. I am something of an expert in a tiny field of medicine, and the medical texts are replete with lies. For the most part "Christian" theologians are worse.

[@JRRodriguez-nu7po]

@@mosesking2923 Nicea 1 was put together by bishops who had undergone terrible persecution. They were faithful men, like Santa Claus who was thrown in jail for punching Arius in the face and legally could have been executed. Christianity had just been made legal and profitable. It was not until the next generation that the lust for power and profit began to grow. As to the Da Vinci code, PLEASE stop burning straw men! I repeatedly state my full unconditional submission to Nicea 1 and the great achievement by faithful men it was. Even at Chalcedon not much later there was still some level of reverence for Scripture. However by then the political intrigue between the 5 chief patriarchs was rapidly growing fueled by the money and prestige to be garnered from Marcian. Even at that council, they did not go completely off the rails and while I do not agree with Chalcedon; I can certainly respect it. As you go through later "ecumenical" councils you find an increasing level of power plays, politics and money culminating in Jezebel (Theodora) bringing in FULL open idolatry which plague the "Orthodox" and Roman Churches to this day.But I digress into more of what I know little about again. As I repeatedly state, I know less of the ante nicene "fathers" than about the green lantern corps of DC comics which has taught me much theology (I detest the term "church fathers" for there's only One Father but use it for convenience). However I do NOT burn straw men as in fact you are doing. I find it offensive that after what I have been writing you would suggest I have in any way shown any tinge of the loathsome Da Vinci or the earlier "Sangre Royale" (Holy Grail) book that preceded it. I am a very ignorant man because, the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. That said, for you to continue writing that in any way I oppose Nicea 1 is an insult. I have made myself clear on this. I suggest you read a bit wider on how Nestor who did not express himself with the clarity he ought have and was maligned. James White has on occasion mentioned it, but he is a White man by color and name and currently such devils are not to be trusted by the woke. I thank you for appreciating my humor which is built of saying the Truth in a surprising way. For example, the crux (pun intended) of Christianity is that a Jewish carpenter built the world and is madly in Love with you. That is both True and a joke. As Tertullian would say, I believe because it is absurd. yes I know he went Montanist but still, I like Tertulian. He wrote a short book on patience and at the beginning he claimed he was writing on patience because he had none; thus making him an expert. Monty Python would hire Tertullian. Thank you for caring about the words of an old man.

[@JRRodriguez-nu7po]

@@mosesking2923 I will part ways with you leaving you the last words to avoid insulting you back in kind.

[@michelhaineault6654]

John 1.14 is NOT talking about the eternal son this is soooo wrong he is talking about Elohim who created all things by is word (gen.1.3 And Elohim said (word) let there be light !!!! Elohim is NOT the Son but the ONE who begot the Son.Only Elohim is eternal and by becoming Himself the sacrificial lamb the Son is glorified being the Father who will do all the miracles trough the hands of the Son BECAUSE the Son by Himself cannot do nothing but the Father CAN. The Father it's the true and only ONE Eternal Spirit of life and of the living ones.

[@michelhaineault6654]

@@mosesking2923 the word of God THE FATHER belong only to Him. gen.1:3 and Elohim SAID let there be light (this is the Word of Elohim and Elohim BECAME FLESH so Jesus is now the WORD OF ELOHIM, not another God not another person but Elohim-Emanuel among us. The Word was ELOHIM John 1:1 JThe man esus cannot be eternal HE BEEN BEGOTTEN....By Elohim the HOLY SPIRIT

[@michelhaineault6654]

@kyle the verse is simple and the Jews perfectly understand what Jesus mean this is why they try to stone him Jesus was saying Before Abraham exist I AM = Jesus before is incarnation was I AM and I AM is the Father . Jesus been BEGOTTEN as a man but He is God the Father manifest in flesh, manifest in bodily form as the sacrificial Lamb and this is what Paul is saying in 1Tim.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[@mosesking2923]

@@michelhaineault6654 you are simply incorrect. Jesus is the logos, entirely different person from God the Father, who is an entirely different person from the Holy Spirit. Father, Son, Spirit. Three persons, one God. Please leave behind your false Islamic teachings and embrace Orthodox trinitarianism.

[@michelhaineault6654]

@@mosesking2923 lol so God is teaching I AM THREE DIFFERENT PERSONS 🤣 Naturally you are totally wrong God always teach HE IS ONE ( never three) you follow the Platonic trinity born in 325 ad The logos is not a person but God expression as seen in gen.1:3 And Elohim said ( Elohim logos here) where is your trinity of three different beings ??? 1Tim3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH this is not another person oh blind man ! Jesus is GOD THE FATHER and there is no other God, Jesus is NOT coequal with the Father Jesus is in submission with the Father so not coequal . Nowhere God who is the Father ALONE is saying I AM three persons but is name is '' I AM '' and Not as you pretend ''WE ARE'' God name identify who He is and is name is SINGULAR. Here is the perfect biblical proof that YHWH IS JESUS : Isaiah35:3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees. 4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

[@michelhaineault6654]

You are so blind that you compare my monotheism to the Islamic teaching ??? So the Jews were and are all Islamic, being all Monotheists mmmmm what a stupid comparison and don't forget Jesus was a Jew and a pure MONOTHEIST he call God is Father not is triune God (s) as you do ! So Jesus was an Islamic and a liars to call God IS FATHER AND OUR FATHER but not MY TRIUNE GOD !!!!

[@malachi7948]

Jesus Christ is the LORD, the one and only God who dwelt among us in totality in fleshly form; taking upon himself the form of a servant. Had he already been a servant, God forbid this despicable blasphemy, then this would have been unremarkable, yet it is our Lord and Master who took on the form of a servant. His humanity is created, it is distinct from his divinity and is subject to it, yet his humanity and all divinity belongs solely to him. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 3:6 As he was in the earth, and as he is alive in heaven, all the fulness of the Godhead, not 1/3rd of it. And besides Jesus Christ there is no other God. If you do believe that Christ is He then you shall die in your sins. “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.” John 8:23-25 “Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.” Isaiah 41:4 “They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:” John 18:5-8 “Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.” Isaiah 43:10-12 “Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” John 14:9 “O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.” Psalm 136:1-6 “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.” John 1:10 “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 44:6 “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.” Revelation 22:12-13 “And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one” Zechariah 14:9 “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” Revelation 19:11-16 “I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.” Jeremiah 17:10 “And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.” Revelation 2:23

[@JRRodriguez-nu7po]

All of God's attributes are partially communicable. Theologians are wrong. If you want to see frictionless authority, note how the dominant brain hemisphere works with the subordinate. Do your right and left hand fight for dominance? It does happen to people with strokes. A wife should be as the left hand to the right (actually as the right brain to the left). These men are too deep into man's theology and insufficiently understand creation. God's first revelation to man is nature. These excellent men make errors because they ignore nature which illustrates Scripture. Now, nature by itself is insufficient.

[@michelhaineault6654]

two trinitarians who cannot handle that the true God who in the beginning created all things and later begot is own humanity as the sacrificial lamb. Before is incarnation Jesus was the I AM or the Father (before Abraham existed I AM ) and also : John8:24 Then He told them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I AM (He) you will die in your sins.” The ''HE'' is not in the Greek text. The Jews clearly understand that Jesus was saying I AM =Yahweh and they want to stone Him. The son was not in existence before is incarnation BECAUSE He is the I AM in BODILY FORM. It's Yahweh Himself who came as THE SON as THE SAVIOR Jesus WAS NOT SENT it's Yahweh-Elohim Himself who came= Isaiah35:3 = Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees. 4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your Elohim (see gen.1.1) will come with vengeance, even Elohim with a recompence; he will come and save you. 5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. 6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

[@michelhaineault6654]

It's Elohim our Father and God and Jesus Father and God (as a man) who came in flesh not a second person of a triune god and as Isaiah full of the Holy Spirit say = isaiah9.6 or unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. JESUS IS THE EVERLASTING FATHER.

[@michelhaineault6654]

@@mosesking2923 Isaiah seem to have another understanding than your carnal thinking Jesus was clear John14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. the Father is the God of Jesus and all the miracles Jesus did was done NOT BY HIM but by THE FATHER IN HIM trough Jesus hands (Father manifested in flesh) Show me mr Magoo in your bible just one verse saying that God is three different persons ??? In MY bible God it's THE FATHER ALONE and never three persons. 1Cor.8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist ONE GOD THE FATHER NOT ONE GOD YOUR TRIUNE GOD OF THREE DIFFERENT PERSONS.

[@michelhaineault6654]

@@mosesking2923 absolutely but THEY ARE NOT THREE PERSONS BUT ONE! This is exactly what am saying only one God the Father who became flesh and who dwell in us by the Holy Spirit. Rom.9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen. Who is God OVER ALL ? JESUS Christ

[@michelhaineault6654]

@@mosesking2923 so all the prophets and all the apostles are heretics because they where not trinitatians but MONOTHEISTS and Mono= ONE never three. Your trinity of three different beings come from the roman catholic church born in 325 ad ! Eph.4.4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (where is your catholic trinity here????)

[@rockycomet4587]

Lol

[@wymanrtaylor]

What these guys are saying is that even the angels disagree about theology... so choose any of the mainline denominations; as long as you believe Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins, and you confess His name before men, you’re saved. The denominations ALL have it right and all their arguments are superfluous. BUT REMEMBER if your church is WOKE, it knows NOTHING, no matter the denomination.

[@mosesking2923]

Better yet, leave behind all false mandmade Protestant denominations and enter into the single, apostolic church founded in the first century. So glad I left the heresy of Protestantism years ago.

[@aservantofJEHOVAH7849]

Psalms83:18"That men may know that thou,whose name ALONE is JEHOVAH,art the MOST HIGH over all the earth." Note please there is but one named JEHOVAH. Note also that this one is the MOST HIGH. Thus if ones God is associated with two equals (e.g the trinitarian Jesus). He is not the Lord JEHOVAH.

[@rockycomet4587]

I'm not seeing the point.

[@jessetoler8171]

So much confusion among Trinitarians, who are supposed to be experts in the doctrine. All they were able to do is describe what the Trinity is *not*. The best explanation is that the Trinity dogma is a fiction attempting to appear monotheistic when it is Tri-theism: three gods.

[@marysheilds9966]

You are correct www.bitchute.com/video/D5WcxOozzBlT/

[@johnnybagofdoughnuts4193]

That’s where you’re wrong, bucko

[@rockycomet4587]

What a giant lolcow you are, just like the ones on the KiwiFarms!

[@verdevalley1966]

white-wilson--i dont hear you say the spirit is fater or father of jesus ==seems spirit is left out.

[@rockycomet4587]

This discussion was about the relationship between Father and Son

[@marysheilds9966]

Jesus REPRESENTS Yawah. Delegation. Image. What is so hard here? That you are confused is evidence enough.

[@malachi7948]

10:57 “Pre-incarnate” Jesus Christ submitting to the Father? GOD FORBID! Jesus Christ is the Father incarnate! “Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” John 14:8-10 Jesus Christ is the only Wise God, the one and only saviour, he testified to his prophets that he would dwell amongst us, and to his apostles that God is a Spirit, that the Father is the one God, and that he,who dwelt among us in the flesh, is the Father, he says “I am” and “I am he”, and he is the same one who said this unto the generations from the beginning.

[@malachi7948]

12:09 God completely and fully dwelt among us in the flesh! not only 1/3rd or a second person of three, God forbid!

[@michelhaineault6654]

I search in my bible your one Elohim being three elohim and curiously it's not in my bible ?? Maybe Yahweh was wrong when He wrote the first commandement? Deut.6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One. ( not three at all) this was also confirm by my Lord Jesus = Love the Lord your God ONE LORD not three Lords !!!!

[@rockycomet4587]

No Christian believes there are "three lords."

[@michelhaineault6654]

@@rockycomet4587 But Jesus is Lord and the Father is Lord.Psalm133:3 It is as if the dew of Hermon were falling on Mount Zion. For there the Lord bestows his blessing, even life forevermore. (One Lord) John 20:28 Thomas replied, "My Lord and my God!"(two Lords)

[@rockycomet4587]

@@michelhaineault6654 They both are one.

[@michelhaineault6654]

@@rockycomet4587 not three?

[@rockycomet4587]

@@michelhaineault6654 God exists in three persons.

[@johnbowman8017]

Jesus said the most important command the Lord our God is one. Jesus had/has a God the same one you and I have. God is one is said hundreds of times. Why do you want to make him three? Madness. The Bible also says God is not a man that he should lie. In another place the Bible says God cannot be tempted. Jesus was and is a man albeit God’s son whom he made Lord a different term over all. Please read Anthony Buzzard’s The Doctrine of the Trinity Christianity’s Self Inflicted Wound. Also many of our founders were Unitarian including the ones who were in and around Boston. The Harvard DivinitySchool was controlled by Unitarians at the beginning of the 19th century at the time our country received many of its greatest blessings. Coincidence? Not.

[@rockycomet4587]

Sounds like somebody needs to pick up a theology book.

[@EyreEver]

James, you are allowing your judgement to be skewed, it seems to me, because of the people you are now affiliating with. It is shameful to be giving this man a platform to say "there's nothing to see here, I'm just like you." There is actually plenty to see here, and Mr. Wilson is not a martyr, although he likes to portray himself as one. He is wily with his words, and they don't even often make much sense. And I am not a stupid girl.

[@rockycomet4587]

I think someone needs to chill. 🤣

[@Lombokstrait1]

This is awesome. To witness such fanatics is like looking back in time. Now I understand how the 30 years war happened. A collective madness so focused on such minuscule aspects of their religion. They cancel their arguments and religion out by being so insane. This is just deliciously ridiculous. Please keep meeting so we can be further enlightened of how sick religion truly is. No, really.

[@eddiebrown6035]

Charlie Renfro... Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that nothing created everything, or Something created everything? Please dont say you dont know

[@felixguerrero6062]

Cope

[@rockycomet4587]

What a giant lolcow you are, just like the ones on the KiwiFarms!

[@JoelGarcia-on1hk]

The Trinity dogma is man made, never applied by Jesus or the disciples. Vey confusing, because when to pray to one or the other.

[@rockycomet4587]

If it was manmade, why would Christians subscribe to it?

[@AstariahJW]

@@rockycomet4587 cause false religion brainwash the members to believe it . Of course they will accept it . If they don't accept it then they be called a heretic or was killed many years ago

[@PurePuritan]

You pray to the Father in Christ's name by the power of the Spirit. The Spirit is the car, Jesus is the road, and the Father is the destination