Luna's Tantabus Caused Every Conflict in MLP:FiM

Luna didn't become Nightmare Moon on her own... something external changed her. But not only her.
Thanks to ‪@anonsheepdog154‬ and ‪@stunthead‬ for their help with this project, and their patience despite my straggling!
Vector graphic artwork:
‪@stunthead‬
‪@anonsheepdog154‬
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Credits music by Pagan Pegasus, Blitzy, and Namii:
poniesatdawn.b...

[@silveryuno]

Kinda convoluted, but the idea of the evil spirt being a hidden source of evil that ponies aren't aware of is a very interesting! Scary even...

[@adolfodef]

. SOMEPONY ™ built *"The Well of Shade"* ® in the underground of an Apple Clan town [ _"Hollow Shades"_ ]. . The Earth-Pony Tribe also created the *Mirror Pond* in the middle of the _Everfree_ Forest (this time, the Pie Clan), with some earthpony (presumably the previous librarian of Ponyville) hiding a book with a reference to it. There is an ( *actually* secret) _"Secret Cabal"_ that is working through the ages, building & operating powerful magical devices in the (metaphorical) shadows; working as "Deep State" that does not rely on the current "government" lead by Celestia/Twilight. -> It goes even through other worlds (the "Quicksand Portal" in Equestria Girls: "Spring Brakedown" ); possibly also explaining the existence of "Portal Maintenance" Books in the Library of C.H.S. & the presence of magical objects from Equestria (like the Time Twirler from "EQG: Sunset´s Backstage Pass") in the middle of nowhere [the water stream of a forest, hours away from permanent populated places].

[@JoshuaA1307]

I was thinking this spirit is Grogar…. The real one

[@jetragnarok2075]

like in the anafabula theory. Goat grogar is a shadow of his true form@@JoshuaA1307

[@aaronmarkenson7717]

I totally agree 👍 with you about that thing existence in real life except I don't believe it is a spirit write me back ill get to what I think it is

[@stc1538]

YEAH! ​@@JoshuaA1307

[@alyarin9000]

In a way, the Pony of Shadows is the purest form of this entity. In all other creatures, it blended in more with its host - but with the pony of shadows, it was purely in control, and that perhaps made it harder for it to flee. It seems that the stronger the pony, the less power the 'shadow' gifts them - perhaps because their own magic gives them some resistance to its direct control. Their own desires override it, like Luna with eternal night. Stygian's very weakness is what made him the ideal host. If the Pony of Shadows is the purest form of this symbiote, then its words regarding it are probably the most accurate. Stygian called it 'the shadow', but the Pony of Shadow's own words are that it was made "in the Well of Shade". A 'well' extracts a substance from something. Therefore, for the past 6 years, I have called this symbiote... Shade. It was amazing to see someone else independently come to the same conclusions!

[@lunakingsley.7247]

Even the pony of shadows had some of stygians personality traits and desires, it did have more determination then him though.

[@adolfodef]

_"Shade, The Shadow Symbiote"_

[@alyarin9000]

@@adolfodef The show made me name it that, that's my excuse! D: Just calling it 'the shadow' and 'the darkness' felt so... Impersonal. Abstract. Vague. Shade as a proper noun makes it feel so much more like a character. But yeah, Shade. An omnipresent entity constructed solely of dark magic, who cares for nothing but causing more misery and more negative emotions... You can't get away from it being edgy as hell.

[@nightflame389]

The comics (I think, don't quote me on this) initially called it "the Nightmare" I personally named this spirit "Erebus" after the G1 villain

[@lunakingsley.7247]

The comics kinda contradict the later seasons unfortunately.

[@malachiwonder6800]

The idea of the magic abandoning the host right before defeat is a very creative and creepy one. Thanks Cantersoft!

[@purehyper124]

Luna nightmare is only making her reenact the role of nightmare moon but is still Luna, that is why she is confident, she knows this dream will play out certain way ,also is why she is upset, and suspired the tantabus left before and after being cured in the dream.

[@JadenYukifan28]

Also, the Tantabus grew stronger each time she had the "dream", which resulted in it trying to escape the collective dream she created to attempt to stop it. It wasn't until what Twilight asked Luna, that the latter finally was able to stop it on her own.

[@SnowLily06]

Exactly it's literally stated by Luna that her dreams can never end happily

[@JadenYukifan28]

@@SnowLily06 Because she felt guilty for what she did as Nightmare Moon, though she couldn't help it since her anger and jealousy took over and caused her to transform into the latter.

[@MrAlice613]

This feels like a lot of reaching. Luna doesn’t necessarily need an external source to become more powerful. The whole crux of the series is that the power is within you, ie during the final confrontation with the legion of doom when Twilight states the the elements are just symbols. The reason why Luna becomes “stronger” as Nightmare Moon is because she becomes reckless and self destructive. Compare to when the Kirin become Niriks. They seem “more powerful” because they’re allowing their emotions to run rampant. Same goes for Nightmare Moon. Celestia can’t beat her not because she’s less powerful than her, but because she’s not willing to go to the extreme lengths that Nightmare Moon is. And the reason Nightmare Moon wasn’t defeated by the elements in her dream is because it was a dream specifically constructed to play out that way as an exercise is self loathing.

[@Cantersoft]

Your point with the Kirin is valid-- they have a specific ability that is activated by anger. This might apply to Luna, but it also might not. In "Luna Eclipsed", the way she describes herself after having lost her dark power as a result being defeated by Twilight & co. implies that she saw her darkness as something separate from herself. Having the potential to become something else doesn't necessitate that it was always within oneself, or a matter of emotions alone, although I do believe the emotional state is an integral part of it for Luna. If Nightmare Moon's ability to resist the Elements of Harmony in her dream was controlled by her self-loathing, then it wouldn't make sense that following the Tantabus's escape, she would show visible concern, and then be defeated immediately after. Keep in mind that it is the EVIL version of Luna who is concerned about losing the Tantabus-- so her concern is certainly not over the Tantabus causing problems outside her control. That's probably the only aspect to the Tantabus's escape that she was glad for.

[@MrAlice613]

@@Cantersoft I feel like you're approaching this from the wrong perspective. MLP:FiM is, at its core, a story about the way that your own choices can lead you astray or bring you redemption (ie the redemption arcs of Starlight Glimmer, Trixie, the Changelings, Discord, etc), so we should engage with the story on those terms. Within the context of the original story, the Tantabus is a direct creation of Luna made to torment herself out of a misplaced belief that she deserves to suffer. That is all it needs to be. It doesn't have to secretly be some big bad. It can just be an allegory for self-loathing. As for seeing her darkness as something separate from herself, that doesn't mean that it actually was separate from herself. It just means that she has a hard time reconciling her own feelings of guilt. Plenty of people in the real world struggle with that (which is the whole point of FiM, to relate to the real world). And again, the reason that Nightmare Moon was immune to the elements during the dream is because it was a dream specifically crafted to be that way. There's no deeper meaning beyond that. Luna wanted to punish herself, so she made a dream where she can't be stopped from hurting her friends. Technically, it isn't even Nightmare Moon in the dream. It's Luna playing the role of Nightmare Moon as an exercise in self-flagellation. So of course she'd be upset when the means of her own self punishment escaped into the dreams of someone else.

[@lyrexioscreatorguardian]

Exactly this yeah. I also think the video is a bit far fetched. I think that Luna as the pony of the moon and there for the night = to darkness of her own. People seem to forget that nightmare moon was also in season 2 episode of nightmare night she also turned into nightmare moon. it was brief. but it was there. wether that was done through other magic or the same is unclear or can be argued on. But luna doesn't seem to need her anger/ emotions to be nightmare moon. It's probably a form of her, who knows? maybe it was her nightmare form that she used in other ponies nightmares. as a punishement of sort? she is a dream scape traveler. so who knows. maybe the origin of nightmare moon before luna used it against celestia, could have been in a rather positive take. But to me at least it seems that she always had a darker form because of her natural magic / abilities. Nightmare moon is jsut the boggie man of the MLP world. A tale/ legend/ truth. Nightmare moon might just be an alter ego of hers. that she started to use in a negative light. a more stronger, reckless, anger filled version of her personality. and there for indeed more "powerful". Like you said. if you don't care about what happens to others and let it all out you can do quite some damage. Celestia didn't take those risks and there for seeked aid of the elements. She locked luna away (not defeating her) twilights intentions weren't to save luna. but to defeat nightmare moon. that why it probably worked the second time. and yeah as for the dream thing. the tantabus was meant to let her win and give her a nightmare in which she won. it's not her power source. it's only effecting the dream scape she was in. it never made her stronger. It's just a tool for role play honestly. to punish herself in case she ever won what horrible deeds she could have committed. how rotten her life would have been had she won. (as seen also in the time travel eppisode) People tend to forget alicorns are pretty close to being imortal gods and there for hold a lot of Power of themselves. Luna and celestia also didn't originated from equestria. So who knows what they truly are capable of. I bet any alicorn could tab into the extreme of their power if really wanted too. the concept of dark and white magic really interests me. since honestly there is no dark or light. just how the magic is used. it's either used with good intentions or bad ones. but that's my view. who am I to talk. I'm 23 yearold and talking about a hasbro kids show now xD ahhaha

[@fluttershyisnotadoormat4678]

I kind of thought that the pony of shadows managed to split some part of itself and avoid getting caught in limbo to slowly regain power and free himself :3

[@VeneficusCubes]

I have multiple head canons about this topic. Never dived into "real canon" of the show

[@lumi5783]

Could you perhaps share some of them? I have a many headcanons regarding the show as well, I'd love to hear your thoughts

[@lunatwilight7439]

perhaps the moon itself fueled by her anger turned her in to nightmare moon and in the dream the tantabus replaced the moon as the trigger for the transformation. In a later episode the princesses swap roles and it was shown celesta could have a nightmare for as her new domain became night

[@randomidiot8977]

Rumour has it that Luna's Tantabus was an alcoholic. Since attending an alcoholic's anonymous meeting and going teetotal, there is no longer any conflicts anymore in the MLP universe :)

[@normanclatcher]

I think I read that one in Fimfic. Like, actually.

[@lucadeluca-nq7lv]

In g5 prove that Is wrong

[@grayr-vc8yb]

one meeting? wish it was that easy. teach me ur ways, tantabus!

[@lunakingsley.7247]

Nightmare moons transformation reminds me of to dragon ponies in my little pony 'n friends (ponies transformed by the rainbow of darkness.). And there is a similar negativity magic that seems to also be a thing (and humans seem to be able to use it similarly to ponies, like using it for dark magic. Kinda like sombra and grogar.). So I wouldn't be surprised if this thing is multidimensional

[@Cantersoft]

Interesting!

[@lunakingsley.7247]

@Cantersoft yeah. The rainbow of darkness and the witches magic have similarities to nightmares and dark magic in G4. (G1 grogar also mentions a place called the realm of darkness.)

[@wisteriaclaw]

this just made me realize that the elements of harmony are kinda just the rainbow of light. or the means of making one i suppose

[@lunakingsley.7247]

@@wisteriaclaw oh yeah. My little pony 'n friends and my little pony friendship is magic parallel each other a lot (a fun example is Danny Williams as he seems to Close in age and shares a lot of personality traits with the cutie mark crusaders. The four are also cute and chaotic natural disasters.).

[@carnage0685]

based G1 enjoyer

[@TheRealJimmyLOL]

What i like to notice is that when the villians are in their most powerful form like stygian or nightmare moon, like look somewhat simular to the tantabus. I get that nightmare moon is kidna the tantabus but most of the villians become alicorns or have bolder horns.

[@aysealtn1669]

True ♾️✨

[@SparkTheKirin]

Interestingly, I recall theorizing a little bit about this using the fan character Nyx. Presume there are two Tantabus entities, a true Tantabus from the purest wells of magic, which is able to grant power and corruption to those who want it, and Luna's Tantabus, which is just an extension of her own power mimicking the powers of the original Tantabus, since she lost her connection to it but still has guilt. That's about the extent of where my theory goes in regards to canon, but it's neat to see another person pick this parallel up

[@ThatOneTigerdeer]

I luv that there`s still deep-theory content being made for this wonderful lovable franchise~ 💚

[@MadelineMelodies]

Well if we're gonna tie this into G5, here is a theory: What if Opaline created it? It was shown that she was jealous of Celestia and Luna, so what if she created it after seeing how great they are?

[@Cantersoft]

I think she may have actually found a way to harness the dark spirits and run Equestria to the ground. I'm not up-to-date on G5 canon though, so I'd need to look for any clues in G5.

[@thechroniclesofcriss942]

@@Cantersoft I don't think the writers for G5 are that good, but there's always the possibility that Opaline got possessed by one evil spirit that was skilled enough at stealth that it could remain inside the host even as that pony is defeated.

[@olaf-chan-728]

This would explain most of villains simply becomes "good" after losing, they lose that darkness they had

[@sasha1mama]

Here's the thing...she says "the evil I caused as Nightmare Moon". Leaving aside the grammatical difficulties of "causing" evil, she...didn't actually do anything. As far as we know, it was literally "Nimmy powers activate! Now fight me, sis." She didn't unleash a genocide or cause a war or singlehandedly plunge Equestria into a new Dark Age, just got in a fistfight with Cel and got whupped just as quick. So her justification for beating herself up about it is...either really cringey over-reaction, or there's a *fug-ton* of bad shit no one ever told us about. And no, I don't believe Twi "destroyed darkness once and for all" (partly because I generally disregard the canonicity of the last 3 seasons for a host of reasons, but I disgress). Evil is not a thing that exists on its own outside of the human experience. It comes from greed, cruelty, and arrogance - things only sapient beings are capable of displaying. As long as people exist in a world, there will always be evil to some degree. And thus, evil is never truly dead or gone. All we can do is watch for it, like a gardener vigilant for weeds, and take action when it manifests once more. As the adage goes, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[@VinylNero]

Exactlyy 😭 like at this point idk if it's a writing mistake or what bc they show it like as if NM ruled equestria for years and did Bad things to the people, when the only shi she did is transform and she didnt even last that long, hell cuz she didnt even last at her comeback and i feel that its kinda dissapointing, it would be interesting if she atleast ruled equestria for a certain period but welp

[@anonamouse5917]

I'm impressed by this level of analysis. I'm a rather old pony (59), so I'll have to rewatch this a few times before it all sinks in.

[@brambleshadow4]

Fantastic video! Glad you finally got it finished!

[@Cantersoft]

Thanks! Main reason this went so slow is I never had a PC until a few months ago, so editing was really tough.

[@artemsmirnov4264]

This makes a lot of sense and It explains why Luna was grateful rather than bitter after defeat in premiere. My own theory was that the elements messed with her brain erasing memories, emotions and rewiring the whole system.

[@miraculous-tales]

The concept is similar to akumatization in Miraculous. Once the Akuma, a butterfly that holds evil/dark powers from the butterfly miraculous (magic tool/jewel) when used for evil. It is attracted to negative emotions from jealousy to anger to fear to sorrow, etc. Once they get in their evil form, their identity becomes the name provided to them and their purpose: both the reason they got akumatized that the butterfly holder makes them believe is the reason they were given "aid" (revenge, proving something) and getting the ladybug and cat miraculous (sort of like a transaction type of deal). While their consciousness are there somewhere, it is sort of trapped and hidden by the dominance of the negative feelings. Unless the villain is genuinely convinced of their wrongdoing (maybe reminded of their values in default mode for example), they wouldn't break out of that form unless the source of that power is found (not always the same thing). Even if found, the main source (power is still there, just not on the butterflies who are purified. If not purified, the butterfly will multiply to reach more people, getting stronger). The ones who are no longer akumatized only remember they were akumatized but their last memory is what they were feeling in the situation that triggered this akuma to reach them (injustice, misunderstanding, etc). However, no recollection of the harm and damage they caused during their villain form. Lots of similarities. The power gets its strength and sustainability through continuous negativity feeding the dark power, which also blinds the one being hit unless they have enough willpower to lean into reason and refuse those powers.

[@lunadventures]

😮😮😮

[@luckybunny8322]

Considering how in the MLP world, emotions are a powerful force, being the kind of true source of the Elements of Harmony, as all of them are related to emotions in a sense, and dark emotions seem to also contain power, so it's logical that maybe Nightmare Moon's bitterness created the crux for a dark magic that consumes her whenever she turns into Nightmare Moon (with fangs, not without). Maybe this is what caused the others to change too. I see that that was kind of the point made in this thing, but I don't think it's an evil spirit, I think it's the opposite of the Elements of Harmony, maybe the Elements of Disharmony or something like that. It might be a "As long as there is good, there is evil" kind of concept.

[@JosieGangOG]

G5 still isnt cannon to me in 2024

[@Cantersoft]

That's the spirit! 😂

[@sweetdreams1028]

Considering how inconsistent G5 is to G4, there’s no argument that it actually can be canon. Which is for the best anyways.

[@micr0R4t]

same

[@randomdude-qn3vm]

Anyone notice that daybreaker has a spot similar to luna's extra patch. However, it's orange Wouldn't that mean If has spot= Corrupt form?

[@PeppermintSwirl]

Gonna be honest Luna is a very relatable pony

[@Driyga]

heyyy new to your channel and this was an amazing video! below are all the iffy bits that i never fully managed to connect together but your video does that perfectly! hope to see more from you (with some minor modifications) hope you all have a great day! :) Funnily enough, i've had a theory about this exact for years - the main problem came with Stygian and the pony of shadows. We know that Luna and celestia were mentored by Starswirl, but the time implementation of exactly when is quite confusing. I believe it might be some time in between their self banishment to limbo and Stygian bringing the Pillars together. Not sure what exactly went on between those times but i believe that the pony of shadows is the ancient version of whatever corrupted Luna (will touch on his later) and managed to leech into Luna. The dark forces in which corrupted both Luna and Stygian were of jealousy/envy. you are correct when you say "magic cannot just pop into existence" and i believe that in the MLP universe, emotions are a source of power themselves (explaining how twilight went from a bookworm to the ruler of equestria). this whole theory branches off into multip seperate ones so hang with me for a second. The jealosy in Luna fueled the tantibus and like a parasite, it leeched off this power to grow more and more powerful. going by this logic, Nightmare moon may have had the power of TWO alicorns, Luna herself and the parasite, possibly explaining the sudden power fluctuation. After Nightmare Moon's return, i think Luna hung on to a part of the parasite, the Tantibus, to punish herself for her misdeeds. instead of feeding off of evy, the tantibus evolved to feed off of her grief and regret. I also believe that the tantibus has been causing nightmares, and granted Luna the ability to walk dreams, meaning more power and explaining the sudden change in her physical form from episode two and the next time we see her. I believe that Luna's dream walking abilities are tied to her new form, since it allows her to have connections with ponies in their dreams (and Luna's main reason for despising her sister was because of the inactivity during her night), so i don't think it's very likely that she had this power prior to her reformation. going back to the tantibus, we can see that the tantibus takes a final form eerily similar to the pony of shadows. The tantibus could NOT have originally transformed she created it herself, as you said. and as twilight says, powerful magic leaves traces behind so i think luna scraped together those "traces" into the tantibus. think of the tantibus/corruption like a battery. it stores negative energy instead of giving it off, whihc might result in a sudden power boost from said stored energy. wer of two alicorns. this was all over te place but it's as short as i can make it without posting the full theory (far too long). and the element's of harmony are clearly no match for the power of corrupted forces + the power of two alicorns (this whose yapfest also ties in with another theory that luna rules the multiverse and the dreams are every wifferent universe and MLP:FIM takes place in celestia's dream but thats a heavily unfinished theory which mostly stems on the fact that the tantibus looks like a fragment of space with is ANOTHER theory... wow...) if ya read all that, dang you have dedication

[@artc-the-brony1050]

This kinda reminds of an old theory collab from a former Brony Analyst regarding this so-called "evil shadowy spirit parasite", which they nicknamed "The Nightmare Force", discussing how it feeds off negativity and possesses its hosts to create their villain personas. They even theorized the Pony of Shadows could even be the spirit-husk of its original host/victim after they passed away, and it simply 'took over' Stygian instead of being created by him. Though I have this personal headcanon that this "Nightmare Force" is also particularly interested in targeting those close with the Spirit of Harmony's champions, as a way to 'cripple' the champions from the inside: Stygian being the Pillars' unifier & strategist, and Luna being an Element Bearer herself at the time, both having a feeling of underappreciation & resentment. It makes me wonder if it was waiting for either Spike or Starlight to hit their low point, to allow the evil parasite to possess them so they could attack the current era's Element Bearers (the Mane 6). But sadly for it and fortunate for everyone, that fanfic-worthy storyline never got to happen.

[@zoro4661WasTaken]

But...that start doesn't work out. The whole reason why Nightmare Moon wasn't afraid of the Elements, and why she retained her form after the Tantabus left, is because it _wasn't real_ - it was explicitly a dream. A nightmare with a scenario that Luna had put herself through again and again and again, every night, as self-made punishment for becoming evil. The reason why she looks so confused when the Tantabus goes away is because it went off-script, and instead of forcing Luna to face judgement or the horror of "her" evil ways, the Tantabus went out of her dream and she got "reformed" in the canon of that particular dream. It was like a director that forced her to relive her nightmare, except in this one instance it went away, allowing her to be 'reformed' and wake up. There _is_ a parasite, though - we explicitly see it take over Rarity (turning into Nightmare Rarity) in the comics, and an alternate universe Celestia (turning into Nightmare Star) in the card game. It's also possible that Daybreaker is a version of this, and that the Pony of Shadows is related in some way. This entity is the Queen of the Nightmare Forces - via dialogue when she takes over Rarity, we _know_ that it's the same symbiote that took over Luna, as it mentions that the Mane Six defeated her before.

[@zoro4661WasTaken]

You could certainly argue that some of the villains or their origins came from an ancestor of these forces, though. King Sombra was made by crystals harboring dark magic that opposed the Crystal Heart, the Windigos are evil spirits, as is the pony of Shadows, and so on and so forth. This many villains and monsters benefiting from negative emotions is certainly note-worthy. Another theory could be one similar to what Vision said in the Civil War movie - the mere fact that the Elements exist as a group again and are able to reform or at least beat back evil and negativity may invite challenge. The old heroes who used the Elements disappeared alongside the Pony of Shadows. After that, there presumably weren't many uses - Celestia and Luna use it against Discord, and later Celestia against Nightmare Moon. But with a new generation of heroes, a new Mane Six, there is also a new wave of mostly old threats to face. Windigos, changelings, Discord, Tirek, Sombra, even the Smooze - they've all existed for ages by the time FiM takes place.

[@Cantersoft]

Yes, but remember that the Tantabus is capable of escaping Luna's dreams into the real world. If the Tantabus managed to escape, then that would literally exemplify the procedure the darkness follows to grow from the negative energy of one host, and use the strength to attack new potential hosts. Luna's grief is ultimately the cause of her corruption, and the source of her corruption is what I assume also corrupted Nightmare Rarity. Although you are correct that the Tantabus is just a dream, and not real, it is a remaining specimen of Nightmare Moon in Luna. Nightmare Moon's dark magic was very real, and behaves basically the same as the Tantabus does.

[@zoro4661WasTaken]

@@CantersoftTrue, fair points!

[@uncannyeeveestar]

I feel like chrysalis being influenced by this theoretical “bigger bad” is a bit of a stretch. Her power over the changelings is primarily political, and her early motivations are also political in nature. She’s never demonstrated to have any kind of unexplainable power that can be attributed to a tantabus-like entity (her throne can be explained as being just another magical artifact like the many featured throughout the show). She’s just a really selfish person who desires power above all else

[@thatguyonyoutube2063]

My JJK fan ass cannot watch this video without the brainworms activating.

[@inkblooded1058]

Edit: this theory is mistaken, though my reply corrects the errors. This theory is a bit weakened by the comics, which are considered B-canon. In those, it's revealed that Nightmare Moon was created by creatures known as the Nightmare Forces, who reside on the moon. They are entities that can latch onto a pony's negativity and amplify it, making them feel utter despair. From there, they offer them power and a solution to their problem, which when accepted turns the pony into a Nightmare version of themselves; Nightmare Moon is the most common, but there was also Nightmare Rarity when she was confronted with the fear of being replaced by her friends. The reason for her power in the nightmare against the Mane 6 is obvious; she created the Tantabus to make her a monster far greater than what she truly was, because she judged herself to *be* worse than she was. The Tantabus has unlimited energy in the Dreamscape, since it works entirely off the minds of the dreamers, who - within their own dreamscapes - are unbound by logic or reason. Likewise, when Luna believes herself to be an unstoppable force, ready to destroy everything she knew and loved, this is what she became. However, when the Tantabus fled, it stopped fueling her nightmare. This narrative was repeated in Stygian, though the Pony of Shadows is implied to be a wholly different, far more potent entity than the Nightmare Forces.

[@Cantersoft]

I don't think the Nightmare Forces and the Pony of Shadows are as different as you think they are. Each villain in MLP has a unique strategy; Tirek eats pony magic to build his strength, whereas Chrysalis impersonates other ponies in order to keep them distracted. But both the Nightmare Forces and the Pony of Shadows unite with ponies that have negative potential, and transform them into evil versions of themselves. I doubt this similarity is a coincidence. I think these entities of darkness emerged from the same source.

[@inkblooded1058]

@@Cantersoft So, I stand corrected; re-reading the comic reminded me, Nightmare Moon actually created the Nightmare Forces by cursing the moon creatures, which made dreams. She created them with shadows of her own darkness, so when she fell, they sought to corrupt another pony. In all those parts of their power, I was correct; they turned Rarity into a new Nightmare in a bid to invade Equestria. This is why ponies experienced nightmares at all, in the absence of Luna. But I will say, that raises some interesting questions about the nature of dreams, as the Nightmare Forces were wholly evil and incapable of creating positive dreams, so how did ponies *ever* dream with Luna on the moon? Was Celestia upholding Luna's job even then? And if so, why were ponies so shocked to learn Luna could dream-walk? That is a whole theory in and of itself. Your theory is very interesting and not without it's merits, but it does have holes. The biggest one I can present is that I feel the nature of this method of attack on ponies is less a reflection of one large creature and more in the nature of ponies themselves. Throughout the series, ponies demonstrate a very keen connection to their emotions, greater than that of those around them. In fact, their connection is so powerful that they can manifest these emotions and aspects into literal weapons: the Elements of Harmony. However, this would arguably be a double-edged sword, if we presume emotions are a driving force in ponykind. If positive emotions can alter a pony's body - see the Element Changes from the Tree of Harmony and Twilight gaining her astral mane/tail through a bond with her friends - then negative emotions would certainly be able to do the inverse. And in the nature of Alicorns, we see that immense power turned inwards, warping someone with energy almost equitable to that of a God, forcing a powerful negative change. It's only natural that creatures and entities that would feed off of and hunt ponies would develop in a direction to abuse this weakness, in an effort to undermine the pony's greatest strengths. It is also worth mentioning that, while I was mistaken about the Nightmare Forces, the comics do also have canonical chapters that explain the origins of the other villains: the "Fiendship is Magic" arc of the comics. For instance, Sombra is not a pony at all, but an Umbrum; "shadow and smoke given physical form" and that the Crystal Heart's activation would destroy him. This is soft confirmed by his "shadow form" and his destruction by the heart upon it's activation. Chrysalis was a kinda disappointing reveal; she was born from a cursed lake into which an acorn fell and grew into a carnivorous plant. Starswirl, sensing evil in the plant, did probably the most "Pony" thing I've ever seen and nailed a "Keep Away" sign onto the plant, which caused it to split open and bore Chrysi into the world. Personally, I like the comic's previous implications that Chrysalis was born from a pony being magically robbed of all emotions, which turned her into a void, allowing her to change other ponies as a means of procreation, as well as the usual egg-laying method. Stygian wasn't given one of these stories because we see his flashback; his power came from the Well of Shadows, which arguably is a gateway to Limbo, wherein it and the Pillars were trapped for over a thousand years. It's in the Well that Stygian finds the entity, but if the Tantabus can slip into the minds of ponies, why would it wait for Stygian to wander to some random well? Why not just approach him in his dreams one night? It's because the entity Stygian spoke to was bound in Limbo, trapped away from Equestria entirely. This isn't me shitting on your theory, by the by. I actually love the idea of a grand mastermind behind all these attacks. But the theory does have holes. Any good theory has it's bumps, but those are ironed away through criticism and fact-checking among peers and a supportive and positive community. The comics are a pretty big point of contention in the canon, and I'll admit, if you don't consider them canon, then your argument gains a *lot* more traction. I'd actually argue that the Pony of Shadows itself - as in the entity that possesses Stygian rather than Stygian himself - would make a far better implied mastermind, as we heard the "legend of the Pony of Shadows" in Castlemania, then saw that silhouette of "it" at the end of the episode, implying that it was or is present in the Castle in which the sister's grew up in and Nightmare Moon was eventually created in. I do *love* that you called out that bit in Shadow Play: your line about Twilight recognizing that the Pony of Shadows was immune to reformation, but Stygian was not beyond change was a **wonderful** way to put it. Also, I apologize. I'm a walking repository of useless MLP facts and a massive theory head. If I had the confidence, skill, or equipment to write theories, I'd probably have a whole damn theory channel myself, but I'm lacking in a *lot* of those areas.It's only natural that creatures and entities that would feed off of and hunt ponies would develop in a direction to abuse this weakness, in an effort to undermine the pony's greatest strengths.

[@inkblooded1058]

Also, sorry for this wall. I write *way* too much sometimes.

[@Cantersoft]

@@inkblooded1058 I don't really see how any of the opinions you have expressed here necessarily conflict with anything I said in the video. One of the reasons I still didn't directly identify what I believe is the singular entity that genesised all negativity in Equestria, and instead only described its qualities, is that in my opinion, its substance IS the negative emotions within ponies. I think the collective negativity of many ponies victim to depression, rage, grief, etc. eventually created a force that made everypony else more susceptible to it. I think where you and I might disagree is on how sentient the darkness is. I believe it might have evolved from a formless energy that clouds the hearts of individual ponies, into a somewhat living being that terrorizes all of ponykind-- similarly and conversely to how the Tree of Harmony gained the ability to speak shortly before its death.

[@inkblooded1058]

@@Cantersoft Our points are very similar, but I believe this is less one entity and rather multiple, perhaps not cut from the same cloth but simply borrowing from another on an evolutionary scale. Like how various species all develop the same defense or offense mechanism without having any direct relation: some creatures develop a poisonous coat while others develop forward-facing eyes to better hone in on prey. I believe ponies, being as numerous as they are, have developed many natural predators over the years, all adopting a similar method of attack that counters the pony's own strengths and weaknesses. I don' t know that one entity in particular is the driving force, but more natural selection. I mean, in terms of actual writing, it was probably just decided that "negative emotions will be the enemy to the ponies, who have positive emotions as their strength" and I don't know that it was ever considered more seriously than that. However, narratively speaking, either of our solutions could be correct in this context. Another big counter I would have for this is the Wendigo, which are a force drawn to negativity and strife, and grow stronger in it's presence. I feel like a malevolent being, made of pure negative emotions and growing in power by consuming those emotions may draw the attention of the Wendigo. But that's more-so a theory; we've only ever seen the Wendigo manifest when the entirety of ponykind was thrown into disharmony, and that doesn't quite mesh with one singular, powerful being. Still, one could argue the Wendigo are an unusual outlier, as they have a similar connection to negativity, but seem to lack anything beyond an animal instinct and do not retreat when their power is threatened. In fact, they are very quickly defeated by the Frenemies in Season 9.

[@PurPurAstie]

this theory is really genius, it does seem like canon

[@TheAwes0meo]

Really? I find it laughable that it relies on a dream. How often do you your dreams accurately reflect reality?

[@JviperNVTC]

@@TheAwes0meo But remember that luna stated the tantabus is capable of escaping into the real world

[@12toro]

Very often ​@@TheAwes0meo

[@PhilipJFryII]

Sheer brilliance 👏

[@Troyjason-19K]

Maybe it’s some kind of secret garden or some kind of secret magic we we, we don’t know

[@normanclatcher]

An actual curse from a higher power. And no, I don't mean the writer's room.

[@sokradnxuretsejls4243]

The tantabus is a very unique being but that darkness is a lot more horrifying to say the least

[@gigarmon]

this is some kingdom hearts level of darkness 😅

[@normanclatcher]

Darkness within darkness... This is... _advanced_ darkness...

[@matthewcartwright9362]

You got a point

[@kotonemondwatchter7908]

I really like this theory ! Though, it gives me a subsequent theory about Stygian and the Pony of Shadows that can "catch" some of the inconsistencies of the Pillars story. What if Stygian was partially conscious of the shadows and even his own contamination by the Tantabus? A thing that always bothered me with the pillars story is their artifacts. Stygian tried to steal them to "copy their power" but, by themselves, most of them are useless. Little reminder of them : -Starswirl's Book : probably contains a lot of spells but Stygian is probably too weak to use them -Rockhoof's Shovel : litterally a regular shovel, what makes it special is than Rockhoof used it. It doesn't give strength or anything by itself. We even see it break like a regular shovel (fight against Tirek) -Mistmane's Flower : a flower in a pot with an extreme longevity (may not have been known at the time) -Flash's Shield : Probably unbreakable -Somnambula's blindfold : a regular cloth -Meadowbrook's mask : a medicine mask to avoid contamination. May or may not be enchanted? What give them their importance is the ponies linked to them. Stygian is a supposed strategist, if I can see that with my dumb brain who would lose at chess against a eight years old, he can figure it out. With your theory though, it makes sense if we consider than Stygian got conscious of the Tantabus, maybe after being contamined? But I think the most probable theory would be simply than he did like you did in the video, he made a conjecture due to the different ennemies they saw. With a consciousness of the Tantabus and witnessing the rainbow-lazer effect (with the corrupted always getting banished afterward since it is Starswirl's solution to problems), he may have thought of making a copy of the artifacts to try and either link himself to those to serve as "replacement" when someone is indisposed (be it by injury, illness or other) or understand how they work to reproduce the effect. If we consider than he may have been conscious of being corrupted, it may explain even why he talked to no one about it, it is highly probable than Starswirl would have linked corrupted to being deeply evil. And once he got caught, Stygian finally got the same consequences he thought he would have if he talked to them beforehand. After being banished, from there to going to the well of shadows, it is a pretty logical leap to make. It is a place with lots of ancient sculptures, some representing the Pony of Shadows. So thinking there may be information he may use to help himself seems logical. Buuuut it is like throwing yourself in a pool to figure out why you have wet hair. He would recieved a large amount of shadows drawing out his anger, resentment and other feelings. Making the shadows stronger and I think at this point, he may have begun to run to his friends for help before it became revenge. Why? Because the smart move would have been to become the shadow BEFORE attacking, while he in fact arrived then immediatly transformed. (Imagine how dumb it would have been if they just showed a beam at him before he finished x'DD) It could also explain why Stygian was "in" the shadow instead of "changed" by it. Even if he failed to resist it, being conscious than the thoughts weren't him may have been enough to protect his integrity (either that or there was so much shadow pumped in him than it couldn't fit inside). It doesn't break all the problems of the pillars story (I'm feeling crazy about why the artifacts were where they were. It makes no sense ! They can't have moved from Ponhedge by themselves but who could have known where to put ALL the artifacts EXCEPT Starswirl's? Even if we consider a spell on them to send them back it makes no sense 'cause why would Starswirl's get lost? I have so many theories on that and so many where I'm like "but it doesn't work", I'm close to headcanoning either "Luna lost Starswirl's journal" or "Discord did it" just to stop thinking about it)

[@TailsClock]

Early season word of god said that Nightmare Moon was not some "super form" or a form of corruption that anypony can get. That it was directly caused by the Pony of Shadows. A concept that eventually did get made into a canon villain, but the connection to Luna was surprisingly never stated. Still I have kept this in mind as being "canon" since it was always the original plan. Like Cadance being a pegasus who then became an Alicorn is never stated in the show canon, but we all know it's canon. The Tantabus being like a shadow of the pony of shadows feels right. However I disagree with the idea that her power fled her before Celestia sent her to the moon. I'd say it stuck with her and protected her and that was WHY she was sent to the moon instead of being reformed into Luna. It was only when she came back and was at risk of being banished again that the dark power left Nightmare Moon to fend for herself. Otherwise, the shadow is in the castle just... doing nothing? for 1000 years? And Celestia never needed to banish her??? Also I think the timeline works perfectly for when Stygian was banished, allowing only a small sliver of the shadow to escape, to then infect Luna and rely on her alicorn strength to become a powerful enough threat. So definitely overall I think you're onto something. Though the tantabus itself is a shadow of a shadow to me. I don't think it's anything to worry about. But had it escaped then I do think it would have become a new pony of shadows. I think that's a sensible assumption to have. Also I wonder if Harmony, the creepy Twilight ghost being would be in the same category as the Pony of Shadows. Energy with a will. But a positive version. I kinda wish the two had met.

[@Stardust_42]

I love seeing new theories and discussions being thrown around but I’d have to strongly disagree. I wanna make an entire video series on equestrian magic but I’ll try to explain how I see it here. What we’re discussing here is what I put under the category of “dark magic”. In nightmare moons case, this dark magic was generated by her negative emotions. Emotions in MLP have strong links to magic, and emotional magic is among the strongest in the show, things like friendship and love are magics strongly connected to emotion too. However dark magic/negative emotions “corrupt” the victim. This happens in real life too, betrayal, loss, guilt, shame, despair, ect. All these emotions can change a person for the worse. (Not always, but they can) They might seclude themselves, lash out in anger or feel as though they’ve been wronged by the world and want to “pay the world back” so to speak. This negative reaction to life’s challenges is personified(? Is that the right word?) as magic in the MLP universe. Since these emotions are often so strong they grant the user incredible power at the cost of their well-being. Nightmare moon felt unappreciated and alone, those feelings got worse and worse until they manifested in a way that consumed her whole life. Stygian was trying to help when he was cast out, he felt so betrayed he saw the champions as the real villains and lashed out. The tantapus is a manifestation Luna punishes herself with because of the guilt she feels for becoming nightmare moon. She thinks it’s for her own good, but really it’s only hurting her. Healing from trauma like that takes time, sometimes even when we are in a safe, stable, and supportive environment we may still feel as though we are unworthy of the love others show to us, and punish ourselves when no one is looking. Guilt is a negative emotion, and thus the tantapus is dark magic. Even though it doesn’t turn her into nightmare moon you can see in the episode that it does have control over Luna and feeds off her guilt to grow stronger and hurt others. There’s more to say about all this dark magic stuff but this comment is too long already.

[@TheLegitAlpha]

For some reason, the idea of evil spirits made entirely of negative emotion sounds an awful lot like dark matter from the Kirby franchise.

[@cdcdrr]

I think the Tantabus is just what Luna states it is: an expression of self-hatred and a desire to be punished. That she got off 'too easy' for what she did as Nightmare Moon. And she turned into that because she believed she wasn't as good as her sister, inferior. Again an instance of self-loathing. Her dream of being victorious as Nightmare Moon because the Elements can't harm her seems like a way of exploring and confronting the darker parts of herself. The one that does wish she'd overcome them, and does want to rule as a tyrant over all Equestria, and does want to imprison her sister in the moon like she had been for a thousand years because it soothes her unhealthy ego. And it got away from her in a vulnerable state, as she still cannot accept that she's deserving of a second chance, and needs to let go of her guilt. Of course by the end of the episode the Mane Six do convince her of that, and she's able to come to terms with the darkness within her. So to me it seems it really is a case of internal corruption that caused Nightmare Moon, instead of an external force.

[@Livinlikeaclown]

I love this theory alot! And wetiher people think G5 cannon to G4 or not, I feel like this totally could be a really interesting story line to explain the destruction of a unified equestria (though I'm sure the show runners/writters would never explore something that makes THAT much sense)

[@Cantersoft]

The G5 writers mainly just wanted to tie in their story to the same universe, but they didn't do much to connect the state of Equestria in their universe to a consequence of anything that happened in G4. I kinda think the G4 writers did actually prepare for it a bit though! Not that they knew specifically what G5 would look like.

[@Bxxx87]

Having a crisis over here because I noticed something. The “tantabus” is created in the very very beginning of it all. When the show became popular. The “tantabus” isn’t the enemy. It’s the writers of the show trying to continue to have conflict to make it interesting so the show doesn’t die out. With friendship and harmony, there is no interesting story. The panic in the end as the writers, or tantabus, is thrown out a portal and banished isn’t because it is dying, but because the universe it created will die with it.

[@conan4real]

myb she doesn't have the power in real life to protect herself from the mane 6 attack. it's possible she only activated the shield in the second fight becuase it WAS a dream, seems strange to take a dream as more canon then an actual event in the show... --but im not done with the vid yet idk.-- I've rewatched this video about 3 times in the making of this comment. they do also beat that one annoying shadow pony Stygian with the power of friendship imo, just because they didn't use their actual literal friendship powers doesn't change that Twilight offering him friendship or whatever is ultimately what caused his change of heart i also think that Luna's surge of power is from her emotions as a few other comments suggested, there's a lot in the show about emotions giving you power and it seems likely that a being of negative emotions would grow stronger when exposed to negative emotions. You say the magic has to come from an external source, and it is. It's coming from the emotions she used that created the tantabus, she *no longer has those emotions,* which is why she no longer struggles much with Nightmare Moon till the tantabus comes back into the picture. You said the tantabus represents her power, and her (Nightmare Moon) powers have always come from her emotions causing her jealousy and strife. numerous times throughout FIM we see objects or entities that provide power through sparking emotions, i think Luna imbued all the negative emotions she had about being trapped in the moon, into the tantabus. When she made the tantabus, it reignited the evil forces across the land because her 'evil'/negative emotions were released into the world. i also don't think your theory about "if every pony knew it was a supernatural rando thing, then they would all kiss and make out and be peaceful" because that's just really not how stuff is played out in the show? in order to have harmony, there must be some level of discord, there are issues in their world Before Luna and After Luna... i can definitely understand the "ancient evils being reawakened with Luna's return from the moon" thing but idk about the rest of this honestly, definitely an interesting perspective but idk if i subscribe to it. I also think the answer to why she stays in Nightmare Moon form after her powers are gone, is because they never really left.. according to whatever the hell i said in this comment, her powers come from her emotions(as does all magic in equestria, as i believe anyways).When she realizes she is in the wrong, or when her tantabus leaves, she is losing some of that power and emotion. But the core of her emotions (hurt, betrayal, etc) are still there untill she has been harmonized by the magic of friendship..

[@conan4real]

I'm rewatching mlp rn and I'll be thinking real hard about this but idk honestly; we don't really disagree but i don't think I agree with how you reasoned out a lot of your points

[@conan4real]

I'm thinking about this too hard. to me the most interesting idea, is that when Luna was released from the moon, and all the ponies realized she **wasn't** the pure evil they were told to be afraid of, that it was actually Celestia whose negative emotions over keeping Luna trapped in the moon caused evil to reawaken. That Celestia was secretly dealing with negative emotions around the first season, over how she imprisoned Luna, and those feelings potentially combined with the power of the tantabus is what reawakened everything. it's kinda crazy but so is yours lol. I think it could make sense tho, especially if you factor in that Luna would have a lot more emotions after being brought back into Equestria. She didn't know what to do with them so she would've created the tantabus to cope. Celestia didn't do that, or anything like that, so instead her negative emotions were released into the world at the same time as the tantabus. Neither of them ever want to acknowledge their emotions or what made them feel that way, so it just spreads, seemingly unnoticed by them untill it gets to severe- to a point where it can no longer be ignored..

[@TheOmegaDMM]

Holy shit! This has me convinced, after all the emotional states through out the series in a way speak of such an entity. This is super deep friend.

[@Nothin2seehere-e4z]

Now I’m remind of ephesians 6:12.

[@mercedesswan7205]

Very good theory! Definitely worth thinking on more!

[@derpyman3716]

I'd Imagine that this Darkness was something that was created in Grogar's Time, and might even be fragments of his power. And I do think that the dazzlings were one of the tantabus' first hosts when it was still on the weaker side, and that around that time it was desperate for a new host so it influenced the weakest link of the pillars to be ostracized using its negative influence.

[@AlejandroGonzalez-ej4lp]

One of the few channels that can make theory videos without being Cringe

[@TheWolfQueentm]

Grogar was supposedly the maker of monsters so

[@Trixie_Lavender]

So perhaps Grogar was the first victim of this darkness, or maybe even its creator

[@BlooMonkiMan]

​@@Trixie_Lavender Ima go with the latter

[@JosephNorris-lb6wt]

Darkness can never be killed just as much as the light can’t be killed it is a never ending battle

[@smutnejajo5149]

"Luna's change in physical form is clear evidence that she gained a different type of magic" forgetting that she can do it as a party trick in Luna Eclipsed

[@Cantersoft]

I guess she can, but then I'm going to ask: can party-trick Nightmare Moon defeat legitimate Nightmare Moon in a duel? Can Stygian defeat the Pony of Shadows? Can good King Sombra defeat the umbrum? But you make a fair point. I just wonder if the reason she can do that is innate, or if it's a transfiguration spell she learned.

[@Purgious]

I'd be fine if G5 wasn't canon either lol

[@brianshoubert7803]

A very interesting theory. Begin to wonder if Tantibus is also present in our human world?

[@Alanica47]

Maybe the mysterious patch of black on luna’s flank is part of this shadow creature. In one episode where Luna had to give up her magic along with Celestia and Candace to prevent their magic from being taken by Tyrec, I noticed the moon cutie mark went away, but the dark splotch on Luna’s flank stayed.

[@scarlettgarcia6408]

I would be willing to count g5 canon if there wasn’t so many inconsistencies. 🤦‍♀️

[@FirestormDDash]

As for the G5-4 thing. The hologram from movie/show and comics has things tying the shows together in a timeline. So canon/non-canon could still be used. Though my g5 intrested is glossing over posts at best.

[@saltenzy449]

Hmm, regarding the possible origin of the Ur-Tantabus, perhaps it is one of Grogar's creations? He did create a fear soaked epoch before basically all other events of the show. Creating an etherial force of malice and hatred that could corrupt anyone and would always live on to corrupt others does seem like an amazing creation for Grogar's goals.

[@Cantersoft]

It's possible, but difficult to find evidence for.

[@MafuyuOribe]

This actually makes a lot of sense, I wish they did more with i

[@Chronamut]

the brighter the lighthouse the darker the shadow it casts

[@Zerathina]

Uh… not even… Luna created the Tantabus AFTER Twilight used the elements to rid her of Nightmare Moon. At that time, the Tantabus had just enough power to torment only Luna, keeping it confined to herself. That changed, however, when Luna realized and began to understand that she had friends and reasons to protect people, allowing the Tantabus to feed on more than just her fear of Nightmare Moon, but also her fears of hurting those she cared for, allowing it to grow more powerful. As that particular episode goes on, the more who get involved, the more power it gains- this means that the Tantabus was only capable of leaving dreams well after the defeat of Sombra, Chrysalis, Nightmare Moon, etc. Now if we look at her magic leaving her, as we saw in season 4, it NEEDS somewhere to go, like how Celestia, Luna, and Cadence put their magic into Twilight, Nightmare Moon’s dark magic would require a vessel to inhabit, hence why the Tantabus only lived in a dream, technically a part of Luna until it grew strong enough to not need her. The Pony of Shadows would be a good candidate for Nightmare Moon’s dark magic, except he was already banished to Limbo long before she existed, which rules that out entirely. Your thoughts and theories are intriguing but you seemed to ignore the timeline and string of which events happened- yes Twilight defeated the Pony of Shadows AFTER Nightmare Moon, but he also existed before Nightmare Moon did and was banished before too- so that would’ve been impossible. Sombra was also banished before Nightmare Moon, we don’t know how long Chrysalis existed but she was around no doubt while Nightmare Moon was in the moon- Tirek was in Tartarus for a hell of a long time so that rules him out too, so your theories are basically dead before they even took a breath.

[@WhiteCresentKnight]

The amount of people who are DESPERATE for Luna to be an uwu baby who did nothing wrong are very silly, sometimes ponies who are capable of doing evil choose to use it for evil. That’s all Agency. Luna chose to use the power she had for the wrong thing, her power is all her baby and in the end she was stopped.

[@Trixie_Lavender]

I love this. Headcanon accepted!

[@OrapadeeJoochim]

I love the cute Luna plush

[@James-p8t4s]

An evil spirt that gets stronger through bad feelings isn’t fake its the demon, I mean thats literally what the demon is, an evil spirt seeking that bad stuff

[@mangledhalo]

Incorrect Luna states and I quote "I created the tantabus to give myself the same nightmare to punish myself for what I did as nightmare moon" Meaning Sombra, tirek, stigion, discord, and nightmare mare moon herself could not have been caused by the tantabus since they all happened before she made the creature

[@sweetdreams1028]

You clearly didn’t watch the video then

[@wesleyleatherman5027]

When I first watched this video, it terrified me for how much I saw in similarities to of Satan and his demons seek towards humanity

[@Birdsflight44]

I'm thinking much on the same lines, but I'd go even bigger picture here. Full spectrum Pony magic itself- (AKA Alicorn Magic) is inherently corruptive! Remember that weird line Zecora drops about the potion in Princess Twilight Sparkle? About how it needed Alicorn magic, and then Twilight uses goes all Sombra on the thing? I don't think that was an error. I think it was an idea they could only hint at because [HASBRO], but thry spent the whole series operating under the premise that absolute (Alicorn) power corrupts, and only the power of Harmony can counter this inherent evil. (And with the wonders of ponies and friendship and rainbows, you get highly marketable angel powers!) Your theory starts with the Tantabus, but IMO its just an innate flaw of any one pony or pony-adjacent soul gets too much power with diverse tribe types. The earliest example chronologically is probably the Windigoes- the pony magic came together in their death, during famine and war. That covetous hatred towards each tribe and... even maybe possibly implied cannibalism (because of what IRL Windigoes are) suggests that some real black magic went down. Even a little soul-eating would be enough to unite the tribal magic into black alicorn essence. The Pony of Shadows comes Before Nightmare Moon chronologically, but it comes from when Stygian combined the power from all three pony tribes. This is why I mentioned "full spectrum" magic here, as the rainbow of the elements are shown to be able to generate Alicorns. Luna inherently has the power of the three tribes, so she can create her own Dark Alicorn power. (And as an aside, when Luna and Celestia trade cutie marks and Celestia meets Daybreaker, she isn't at all shocked or surprised- she's immediately defensive, insisting that she will never become her. Go back and watch that scene- IMO it definitely feels like Tia has seriously thought about her own fall, make of it what you will) Where it gets interesting is with Sombra, as he's a total anomoly- cutie markless, weilding dark alicorn magic, but with an apparent tie to shadow-tainted ponies like Shadow Stygian and Nightmare Moon. He also seems to have a resemblance to the Alicorn Amulet. We will never know his deal, as the content of his comic has always been B canon, (where its canon until something inthe core media supercedes it) and that wound up happening. But the relationship to Alicorn magic and darkness itself still stands, as his aesthetic itself is tied to that critical line in Princess Twilight Sparkle. Equestria Girls hosts two interesting points, as we see two examples of girls without Harmony tapping into Full Spectrum Pony Magic via the Elements and immediately turning into demons, no tantabus involved. When Starlight gets the magic of Friendship? She gets a heavily implied human analog to an alicorn form, even though she doesn't get proper pony wings. SciTwi also doesn't get her pony counterpart's alicorn wings. As for the other magic eaters, well, we can't really know because we don't have any non evil ones. (Except Scitwi, who did go she-demon, but she's pony-adjacent) It is implied by Cozy's Alicorn form and the background exposition that Grogar's bell had pony magic in it, though.

[@akiraheike]

Spoiler for the MLP comics You are actually more right than you think about an evil entity. In the comic issues, which are considered canon, there is an arc called NIghtmare Rarity and in that, at the beggining, the mane six were having nightmares and after a bad one for rarity she gets taken over by what Luna describes as NIghtmare Forces, that were created by Nighmare Moon cuz she thought that she could show other ponies how special she was by making them fear her. The forces got enough energy from the more moon cicles were completed to start acting. they seem to also act like Tantabus as in they grow more powerful with bad emotions, like guilty or fear. The Tantabus might be exactly that or even just a fragment of the forces.

[@Cantersoft]

Yeah, I do think they are from the same source. They might all actually be linked to the umbrum, which in another comic are depicted as King Sombra's species. "Umbrum" means "shadow" in Latin.

[@Nickrealm7937]

this is just thoughts i have don't take it seriously. it's probably just luna or nightmare moon dark magic as a alicorn instead of it coming from something else. celestia and daybreaker was a similar thing as daybreaker states she's just everything celestia wanted to be, she was literally just Celestia. twilight and midnight sparkle have a similar situation, before eg gave us midnight sparkle she was hinted tords multiple times in the pony world. 1, was when twilight is talking to her water reflection as if she's 2 different characters. 2, was when sombra first appeared were twilight got a fear nightmare thing about celestia pushing her away with a poster behind twilight showing, sombra takeing the crystal heart with twilight falling to the dark crystals below were a blue sparkle shines. even eg it's self makes it weird as the element of magic twilights element released the same blue dark magic when it turned sunset evil. sombras dark magic brings others greatest fears in form and ultimately correpts them in mind control, twilight saw celestia and luna turn into daybreaker and nightmare moon even though twilight never met daybreaker, showing just like in starlights dream daybreaker and nightmare moons magic is just the deepest part of celestia and lunas they were already corrupted even though daybreaker only showed up one time their just in their minds, celestia refused to be like daybreaker she rejected daybreaker which was how daybreaker was defeated so midnight sparkle was always in twilight in fact implied by eg just as twilight is connected to the element of magic midnight sparkle is connected to it, and midnight sparkle was always in twilight she just needed enough magic to form even if the magic in question isn't dark or negative magic at all( the element of magic). luna created it to torture herself after everything she's done and do to luna and nightmare moon being one of the same, it's connected to her any way to the tantabuse, it's possible that do to it being connected to luna and nightmare moons magic it's influenced by them, it turned luna into nightmare moon couse nightmare moon wanted it to as we see a full nightmare in starlights dream fight daybreaker even though she technically shouldn't exist the way nightmare said "i am back" is a reference to her being the real nightmare moon just as daybreaker was a real celestia, meaning it's possible when starlight swapped their cutie Marks that in turn messed with celestia and lunas true magic as a whole bringing daybreaker and nightmare moon in form. so it leaveing nightmare moon is possibly couse luna wanted it to as that in turn messed with nightmare moons magic just like season 1 when Luna didn't want to be nightmare moon which ultimately had nightmare moon defeated, in the nightmare vs daybreaker battle nightmare was useing magic similar to tentabuse while daybreaker was useing fire probably in reference to celestia and luna controling the sun and the moon, controling shining light but also darkness. nightmare moon and daybreaker are celestia and lunas magic at it's fullest, the tentabuse is just a remnant of that. the nightmare in season 1 was nightmare in control of luna when luna no longer wanted to be her, so she luna created the tantabuse to torture herself, the nightmare moon that used the resisted the element of magic was nightmare moon but luna wanted the tenatbuse away, while the nightmare moon and daybreaker in starlights dream was the true version of themselves with no restrictions as showed by celestia daybreaker and nightmare moon are only at true power when given no restrictions and full control. that's what I think about the situation anyway

[@dragonflyer9964]

I love this theory

[@user_Alex-isst]

The tantabus is possible that it stayed in Luna's consciousness and hid away from the elements of harmony and can only be awaken if Luna happens to be overwhelmed by hatred, despair, jealousy . And it is also possible that the dark magic is from negativity well it is already true , considering it takes host by the people who are willing to be evil or is overwhelmed by sadness I guess it would happen. It might also switch to host to host so that it can still have some power when back

[@darkchocolatemuffins9727]

Whats absolutely fucked is that Luna made an entity that can defeat the elements of harmony just in the dream world, and I don't really remember exactly what Luna said in the episode but she essentially made it seem like once the tantabus leaves the dream world and enters the real world its basically too strong to be stopped. Damn wtf Luna almost ended the world😂 you know what, this settles the debate of who's the stronger one between the 2 sisters. It's clearly Luna because idk how she did or what spelled she used or if sheade the spell herself but she made an entity that was stronger than the elements of harmony off screen. Throughout all the seasons Celestia has just been depending on the elements to fight her battles

[@anjuamitvlogvlog2809]

I think it is a tiny blue thing that did it

[@daniallegacy]

Boss: Soldier, what are you watching? Me: 6:30 /)*(\

[@masamedo-qy2fw]

😮 you know nightmare moon she is powerful and i already watch all of the videos

[@hitsriannaxoxo7742]

Could this evil spirit be one of Grogars monsters discord mentioned while he was pretending to be him ?

[@walterlyzohub8112]

Will part 2 cover yin and yang? I just saw this today instead of 2 months ago

[@universalsubs6935]

Luna says she made tantubis after the nightmare moon event so it didn't cause that conflict

[@JoshuaA1307]

Is it possible that this dark force is the disembodied form of the true Grogar?

[@alyarin9000]

Grogar's magic is partially yellow, so probably not, considering the PoS is just black. That being said, when he was disguised as Grogar, Discord said "My reign was a glorious, FEAR-SOAKED epoch of DARKNESS in Equestria" Fear-soaked would be something the entity would like. Starswirl uses "the darkness" to describe the entity. Maybe they're related in some way.

[@JoshuaA1307]

Well it’s still possible that the darkness could be his will or a shard of him

[@Cantersoft]

Grogar might've had something to do with it. I doubt it is literally him-- as @alyarin9000 mentioned, his magic isn't totally dark. But he may very well be the creator of what Starswirl described as "the darkness".

[@johnathanfunk6745]

​@@alyarin9000 Yes Grogar magic is yellow. It could also represent fear. Think of Sinestro the Yellow lantern. It is powered by fear.

[@romanadell2430]

Equestria Girls series also had some transformed villians, such as Sunset Shimmer, Twilight Sparkle and Gloriosa Daisy, but the magic there was created by the elements. So the elements not only aren't strong enough to destroy this Darkness, but may also be the source of it. If we consider Equestria Girls to be canon that is.

[@callhermisfortune]

Dam Luna is really evil for this-

[@lolfreakwaca4328]

you are making a lot of assumptions in this and forgetting that dream logic applies in the dreamworld something that is shown in that very Episode. so you can't take anything that happened in that dream with Luna and the Tantalus at face value! sure its a cool Idea but there isn't rrally any evidence for any other "evil spirits" aside from the pony of shadows. sure the fact that it happens twice is weird but that doesn't prove that there are more out there. the reason for sombras escape could JUST be that the time limit of the banishment was up, not that some dark spirit released him. as I said its a cool Idea , but there's really not a lot of evidence behind it.

[@Cantersoft]

Of course I just stuck with the solid, definite information from FiM, because the video would be twice as long otherwise. King Sombra is actually a shadow pony, according to the comics! He is called an "umbrum", which is Latin for "shadow". The umbrum created Sombra, disguising him as a pony in order to trick the Crystal Empire. There are also the Nightmare Forces, a creation of Nightmare Moon which escaped into the real world and possessed Rarity, as well as Nightmare Moon's mane magic in the pilot episode, which possessed a Manticore. As I explained in the video, the reason I'm comfortable with taking Luna's nightmare literally, is that the grief that her dream is based upon is caused by the darkness that possessed her. You can actually see Luna's body being physically taken over by a swirling black essence in the S4 premiere. If Nightmare Moon was created by an external force, I believe the Tantabus reflects it.

[@lolfreakwaca4328]

@@Cantersoft but the Comics aren‘t Canon and sometimes even contradict each other, or later seasons of the show. Same goes for stuff like the Journal of the Two Sisters. so we HAVE to stick with just the Show as a Base of Knowledge. And I guess Equestria Girls also Counts

[@Cantersoft]

@@lolfreakwaca4328 If the arbiter of canonicity isn't the licensor who gave IDW the stamp of approval, then who is? Even MLP:FiM is written by many authors, who used the comics and even fan works for inspiration. On the other hand, Lauren Faust decanonized EqG in her own book. Last year she canonized a child's drawing of Spike's girlfriend. Point with this is, IDW stays in spirit with the show in my personal observation, so I don't see why its merit should be revoked. Please tell me where the comics contradict the show any worse than the show contradicts itself, because I'm all ears and I'd like to understand where people see its faults!

[@conan4real]

​@@Cantersoft I think you are both right... it's a parallel canon just like EQG is, something being shown directly in FiM would take "canon precedence" over the other 2. Yes, the IDW comics are canon but the show should still set the base canon that we follow

[@VillainOchako]

But with king sombra he had this entity before luna. So she might have gotten it from him😅

[@alexbakvid]

I agree with you! I think that entity came from sombra’s kind reality. After Sombra defeat dark part from him lurking across Equestria for finding a new pray where it can grows.

[@alexbakvid]

I think that dark power behave similar to simbiots from Marvel, it is looking for a new host in which it can grow, using your emotions, desires.

[@XGalaxyPlqyZ]

in my au this is definitely the case :> Sombra caught it by practicing dark magic, Luna got it from her connection to him and the existence of her insecurities

[@sugasnaps]

This blew my mind. Amazing theory, dude!

[@waynesze8264]

just some insight into had while watching: 1) while it is unclear if luna did grow stronger when transformed into nightmare moon, i think the reason celestia decided to fly away instead of directly battle her sister is probably that she didn’t want to hurt luna and wanted her to give up this dark power in her own, and only when she really couldn’t, she resorted to the elements, as you can see her sort of think about her decision before fully activating the elements. 2) i like the idea of the the whole like this spirit of darkness needs a host in order to create chaos and gain power but maybe the reason why it exists is due to the idea of balance, as the whole show is about harmony and all that, so it would make sense that if there was a main 6 or any kind of hero, there would need an opposite and possibly equal level of power of a villain in order to balance out the positive energy cause if there was no negative energy at all, the world would be boring and nothing would happen, so they need each other to stay alive, so i don’t think either one can be fully destroyed but one could be more powerful at a certain time but they will overall be the same. 3) also what about discord? do u think that he has something to do with this too?

[@karolinamarkowiak1703]

What if, it is all Opaline's fault? Or, what if she was infected by this dark force too? I mean, she is as old as Celestia and Luna, more or less. So this could be possible, right? (besides how badly she is written as a villain)

[@Cantersoft]

I wrote the script for this video before she was known in G5. I haven't watched enough of G5 to know for sure, but she could have been infected by it!

[@ikaiju-eu9wn]

so you're telling me that remnant from fnaf is also in mlp

[@landedsafely]

Where is that plushie from

[@Potocalter]

Dark sentient magic that infects ponies and draws power from them, spreading negativity, making the ponies evil and chaos? satan confirmed in MLP 🤭

[@LUNA_076]

❤

[@mitchilcooper7606]

Don’t you mean wherever there’s light they will always be shadow

[@tikimillie]

Could this be a worthy replacement for sawtooth buck? (Minus grooming of course.)

[@Saria-io5fx]

Ephesians 6:12, For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[@Cantersoft]

Basically.

[@normanclatcher]

Spiritual warfare. I know the way.

[@eddog6666]

OPALINE!

[@kristelvidhi5038]

No wonder she's Anti social. 😂

[@mysticlight5756]

She didn't destroy it but it got more careful new mlp is out

[@blackcatarts9985]

infection mlp au where the tantubus is the parasyte anyone?

[@ChronicallyOnlineGlitter]

you're giving me a new idea for an infection au

[@marycanary6989]

The tantabus is probably what set up G5 once the main six finally succumb3e to there mortality