Carbon vs Aluminum Frames - Which is Stronger?

[@MrChangCJ]

Aluminium fails slowly, allowing one to detect problems before anything too serious happens. But carbon fails catastrophically (sudden snapping), which is way more dangerous to the rider.

[@gillenzfluff8380]

MrChangCJ I have seen all metals fail welds snap often with no warning!

[@MrChangCJ]

hmm, i see. thanks for the insight. i shall do more research.

[@raidirr7448]

still defend on the rider how they ride it ..

[@bryantrudy568]

I have replaced the front triangle on my 2003 Kona Stinky Dee Lux twice because it has bent or failed catastrophically during hard impacts, but I love the bike and it's geometry so much that I'm unwilling to part with it. I feel the same as another poster in that if I were a sponsored rider, I'd ride a carbon frame without any fret, but as a private rider an aluminum frame is cheaper to maintain and replace.

[@eaxnitro]

MrChangCJ With the paper thin double butted tubes used these days in alloy framed bikes the yield point and ultimate failure point are very close together. As for carbon, I'd be more concerned about dropping a carbon frame sideways into a rock and cracking it on a load it wasn't designed for....

[@aslief9808]

2:14 *frame destroyed* *some people : "woohh nice" *me : "wohhh thats hurts"

[@gedons7011]

The "smash the frame against concrete"-test at the end is majorly misleading. A carbon frame that suffered from these impacts might feel safe in the hand and not show visible damage but internally those impacts lead to delamination which will result in cracks. As those delaminations are not visible it is a high risk for a rider to use a frame that suffered from such an impact yet from the outside you will not be able to tell if the frame is damaged. This is a reason why more and more companies offer carbon-bike inspection by using x-ray, ultrasound etc. to detect internal damage. This however was costly if performed after each (even minor) crash. For that reason aluminium-frames are much safer in that way, that you can easily detect damage from the outside. Furthermore quality-control is a major issue in the production of carbon frames. As carbon frames are assembled by hand even the tiniest imperfections (air bubbles, wrinkles, missalignment) can lead to major structural deficits. (More in-depth explanation here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/e4vFmGieeLesrNU) Lastly the first tests shown in this video are also not quite fair in that regard, that major damage to the carbon frame happens before the sudden cracking. If you listen to it carefully you can here the fibres bursting much sooner (at forces similarly to the aluminium frame). Those cracking sounds indicated damage to the bike that would already render it unsafe. In conclusion this video can lead to a quite wrong impression about carbon fiber strength. Ultimately carbon is more vulnerable to sharp impacts and are much more costly to inspect. Fatigue cant be assesed that easily either.

[@Gravityfed11]

Gedöns I'd love to see the NDT report after that test... I bet it looks like a bag of air! 😂

[@gedons7011]

You bet it does!

[@colt.4534]

Agreed. I was thinking the same thing

[@AG.Floats]

Yup no way the frame is remotely safe after a hit like that. Will instantaneously fail in a split second one day and down you go for a dirt nap.

[@frederikroark]

Good comment

[@pedrogoncalves2074]

On the first test the carbon frame was delaminating way before it snapped. Once it starts to delaminate its over... Carbon and aluminium have diferent properties. Simply saying carbon is stronger is VERY misleading.

[@prudentiaski]

Pedro Gonçalves exactly- they need to take the force at where the frames begin to fail rather than where they completely fail

[@rea50]

@@bike-cave-man2527 Just buy a dirt bike bro, there's a lot of option even electric ones

[@Krikstar123]

@@bike-cave-man2527 Canyon bikes snap all the time either carbon or aluminium...

[@Bemx2k]

@@bike-cave-man2527 Generally in 9/10 tests Carbon is stronger than Alu

[@djfung]

Alum frame were buckling at 800 ish . Would've been junk at that point . At least with carbon you would still get some More use out of it.

[@MTBIKEXC]

Casing a jump a lot of times goes the other way, like if you land on the flat, that causes the forces to try to spread the wheels apart rather than together. Hope those frames are strong in both directions.

[@flow2tech]

Brad Herder Well, I had a 2011 blur ltc and let me tell u... I cased more jumps than I got right.. That frame just kept taking it.. Now my cousin has it and still rides the shit out of it... Don't think u have much to worry about.

[@obi-wankenobi9871]

The first test is just useless because at that force you would have long been thrown of your bike. Nobody can get 1.4k pounds on his frame like that.

[@GavynPendleton]

test isn't necessarily lifelike, but it is far from useless. It shows where stress will be concentrated and where and why it will fail under what loads.

[@mannythegoat4463]

@@GavynPendleton correct

[@duroxkilo]

you are correct the wheels do spread.. i've seen 30yo carbon frames that "bent" the forks forward a few degrees, still rigid af. remember when all the magazines were saying 'oh, it's gonna "carbon-rot" in 10-15 yrs'? lols i sometimes ride my '91 Giant Cadex 980C nonchalantly in the sunset because not even the clear coat has faded on it.

[@stevenleslie8557]

I would love to see a modern steel frame go through these tests

[@mrpdg89]

Chromo is basically bulletproof, not to mention even if it bends you may be able to ride long enough to get out of danger.

[@lacasadelvideojuego3880]

@@mrpdg89 only problem is weight but now that other parts of the frame can be made of carbon.

[@mrpdg89]

@@lacasadelvideojuego3880 I suppose it's just a matter of priorities, realistically once they put in the same kind of R&D into carbon I'm sure it could be as good or better than modern alloy frames.

[@skippyguy3]

@@mrpdg89 this is simply not true, bending it back does not work...

[@skippyguy3]

@@mrpdg89 bending a steel frame back is risky. Check out 'steel work hardening' if you don't believe me 👍

[@jdub6797]

Not wearing safety glasses is not very smart when testing to failure.

[@pinkbike]

Promise our health and safety has been brought up to scratch since then!

[@TechnoGlobalist]

with your health care system i allways wonder why you do such stupid things

[@callumscott2650]

Their tests aren't the smartest either, lots of misleading information and results.

[@PopperEtudeFromHell]

I couldn't bear to watch the guy slam the carbon fiber frame against concrete for that matter. Frame breaks and you get a carbon fiber shard into your eye. Also hopefully the guy was wearing steel toe boots during the weight drop tests? Very careless and dangerous on so many different fronts. I hope Santa Cruz takes safety much more seriously than what they're showing here. The horseplay shown in this video at most reputable US manufacturing companies would be unacceptable.

[@DidacticEditions]

@@pinkbike, there's always a prick stating the exact same sad thing in the comment section. My favouite are the ones who advise and say please...Comments here made by people hurt as they have purchased aluminium bikes. Like carbon fiber is way more expensive without a reason...

[@DanRC69]

I'm SO glad i watched this. I know carbon fibre frames are significantly stiffer, but i presumed they'd fail catastrophically under a similar impact compared to aluminium. I've seen so many competition level frames and wheels fail in a unnerving way, that it'd put most people off wanting to use carbon. This clearly shows a good strong carbon frame with the correct weight and build for its purpose is HIGHLY durable.

[@mann_idonotreadreplies]

cool story bro but i would still avoid carbon frames haha

[@an30805]

Massive audio fail !!!

[@rhunt2363]

Yeah lol, i could tell they edited this on FCP7, because if you dont know what youre doing, a mono track will get output to only the right or left channel.

[@keksgib4774]

i hate it!!!!

[@kellyrobinson550]

an30805 👍

[@TeamxDxiii]

right ear :(

[@VAX1970]

my left ear enjoyed it

[@Ripstop_pilot]

youll still be riding home on a bent ally frame. broken carbon is a walk home with a bike in 2 pieces.

[@flow2tech]

socommk233 Ya maybe in 2006..There's a reason why even Nasa uses the stuff! Monocoque carbon molding processes are much superior to the many joints found in alloy frames! Especially in 2017..The carbon fear mongering old thought process!

[@WildOutdoorLiving]

Once aluminum has bent it is eventually going to fail completely and unexpectedly. According to this test you'd be limping home on a bent alloy frame or riding a carbon frame that was completely fine because it didn't break in the first place.

[@gabepence1018]

socommk233 the carbon fiber price tag is the scariest part

[@peterotto8779]

socommk233 I've snapped an aluminum frame, have yet to snap a carbon. just sayin.

[@patrickamazed1356]

Well done bro😂

[@theoutsmarter7662]

At the end of the day, regardless of Alu or Carb, both frames are f-ing strong, and you prob will never break e'm. Ever.

[@gillenzfluff8380]

Theoutsmarter And if you brake any type frame it will probably all be without warning!

[@sbqp3]

Username checks out

[@GavynPendleton]

Thank god someone with some sense.

[@eldelabicidecolores]

Theoutsmarter i know a lot of ppl that have broken carbon fiber frames with normal usage

[@JGstunts22]

@@eldelabicidecolores same with aluminum... you too your bike over into a curb or stone with aluminum and it's going to dent and crease which will lead to failure

[@Mickofalltrades]

The first crackle at like 750lbs that CF frame lost strength.

[@bigbo1764]

If it cracked, it would’ve failed, that’s how carbon works, especially under a continuous load test. A noise isn’t a crack.

[@abstract0407]

If I weigh 200 pounds and hit a really high jump the carbon frame wouldn't stand a chance 😎

[@danzig159]

@@abstract0407 You're nuts. You and your 200 pounds could ride that bike any way you want and it will never, ever break.

[@bigbo1764]

@@abstract0407 I’ve brought my carbon xc bike to a downhill park, I wouldn’t recommend it, but it can handle the stresses of hard casing a few jumps.

[@abstract0407]

@@bigbo1764 I feel like carbon bike could benefit having more triangles

[@cup_and_cone]

in the first test, the carbon sounded like it was delaminating/cracking way earlier than the aluminum failed. you tested to total failure rather than stopping and assessing, but I bet the carbon gained defects way before the aluminum failed.

[@WolfAshesUSA]

Hi, thanks for your question. The first machine was a legitimate engineering test, where components/materials are exposed to a sustained load. The displacement of the bottom bracket and applied force are both measured until the component fails. The data is then put in a "Stress vs. Strain" graph. The slope of this graph tells us engineers the exact point at which the carbon starts to "give," which is when the slope of the line is no longer linear and starts to become exponential. This is known as a yield point. We add a coefficient of safety (standard practice) to be able to claim a safe load for operating. The sound is probably when this yield point was reached and if the test were stopped there would be an uncertainty/area of data loss for the test. We can re-play the test video and correlate the cracking sound with the data presented in the graph. If you're interested, look up "engineering tensile testing," "stress vs. strain graph" and/or "elastic vs. plastic deformation."

[@BC4Lyphe]

you mean the worlds slowest crash? not sure how that relates to coming up short on a jump...

[@truantray]

These tests are all chosen to make carbon look good, but we all know in the real world a disastrous jump might bend an alloy frame, but carbon frames shatter with sharp fragments. I drank the carbon koolaid, learned my lesson, and since saved thousands while riding great alloy bikes.

[@truantray]

@@WolfAshesUSA Nice bullshit answer, but it ignores the comment - the test has no practical application to bike strength under conditions of high deceleration impacts. This is where carbon fiber fails. Also, the test only applies forces on one plane, where carbon has it's highest strength, while metal has strength in all directions. While it is an engineering test, in this application, it's just a marketing stunt. You could also test if the frames float in water, just as useful.

[@TheDazzler420]

Aluminum has very low yield point per grain structure inside that's why they add magnesium and other tough metal to enhance yield, it's same as composite just different material. They both behave same in micro level.

[@RideBikes_Walkplaces]

The carbon one sounded like it had strands cracking before the aluminium one actually failed. Surly lots of smaller impacts at that load could cause significant unseen weakness?

[@mithrandirtheistari]

This is an old video, no idea why they reposted it. Tests on this video were on the old Nomad2 platform while Nomad4 is around the corner. This would be interesting to redo to see how/if stiffness has improved on the new N4 platform.

[@pinkbike]

That's a great idea, hopefully we'll get to do it again.

[@knarzt]

Open it up to comments on how/what to test if you get the chance to do this again. I like the idea of measuring the crushing force applied to the side of the top or down tube, and testing a full frame (front and rear triangle with a solid block of steel for a "shock") with a downward force applied at the bottom bracket area with fixed attachments at both the headset and rear hub. I've also got to say that with Santa Cruz' warranty the Carbon vs Aluminum arguments kind of go out the window.

[@JonathanFisherS]

For the weight drop test, AL frame failed with roughly ~170 joule impact, the C frame failed with ~440 joule impact, which is over 2x. Pretty cool

[@electricdeckhead3083]

carbon hides internal delamination well, which for me is just as dangerous as a bent or cracked alloy frame, aluminium has the win for me, if I was a sponsored rider carbon all day please.

[@flow2tech]

Flats Forlife Dont think you have anything to worry about going carbon in this day.. Its virtually a non issue at this point.. I've been on it since 09 without a hiccup.. Big crashes hucks to flat.. Complete and utter pure unadulterated north shore and rocky mountain riding and not a Single issue! Don't be scared of the big C! It's come a long long way.

[@electricdeckhead3083]

I work with composites quite a bit myself in the work I do, not bikes, but I am also a qualified pushy mechanic, although it's been a while now, but still not convinced it's the best option for a bike, looking at going cro molly myself, full circle I guess, but nothing has ever ridden as good as cro molly bikes for me, weight I am not scared of so only makes sense for a weekend warrior.

[@flow2tech]

Flats Forlife Well I had the the first 2009 blur ltc that I rode hard and put away wet for 4 seasons! It then went to my dad who tops scales at 270lb and now my cousin for the past season until now.. Still waiting on delam or any inherent issues talked about.. Im all about real world use and its carbon all day for me!

[@electricdeckhead3083]

I'm all about real world use also and carbon will not cut it for the riding I do, I just have to remember not all ride the conditions and style I do, ( theres a reason you do not see carbon trials, street 20 inch or dirt jump bikes,) I guess for cross country people etc who's parents also suit their bikes it will do just fine, but for those of us who literally abuse their bikes every ride it will not cut it, casing a large jump alone is detrimental to carbon frames 9 times out of 10 whether it shows straight up or hides it within the weave for down the track you will not know, as for delaminations who are we to say it has not started inside the frame already, that's why I say it hides it well, usually a delam will occur on the inside of the tubing in the rough areas where the bladder has left hard edges and corners etc during the moulding process not on the smoothly laid outer surface you see with your eye. you will be oblivious to most delams until it goes bang, that's when you realise ooh I wonder how long that was like that?

[@flow2tech]

Flats Forlife are u kidding me..Have u seen the shit cam Zink, Kirt Voreis, Andreu Lacondeguy hit on full carbon? It is plenty good enough for anyone in this comments section guaranteed! Providing the newer stuff of course. Danny Mckaskill absolutely destroys on his Santa Cruz 5010 or Bronson full carbon..Myself, I smash a Trek fuel ex 9.9 in Whistler bike park without any issue!..Its come a loooooong wayyy.

[@zachaxel4403]

They should have tested direct frame strikes for dents,cracks,stone strikes etc and lets see how the frame really holds as its the most common scenarios that happen when you crash in the trail..

[@SpineShank7]

Did you miss the part where they swung the carbon frame into a concrete corner?

[@curtmastor]

Was a Santa Cruz fanboy until I saw this. These guys mke sick looking bikes though. I hope they played coy, and the SC engineers aren't this clueless. Carbon microcraks and delaminates instead of bending or warping. Yes it exploded at a much higher pressure point than the aluminum but if you stopped the test for carbon at the failure point for aluminum and testing it with ultrasound you would see just how misleading this video is. MTB pros use carbon not simply for the weight savings but for torsional stiffness, and its ability to do just this.....stay intact at a further point in its structural failure. When your racing a 3 min downhill and you hit a big jump wrong, youll be able to finish on carbon where as alloy will probably warp or bend. Doesn't mean the frame is any less broken though, just more rideable enough to finish. Works for the pros who will just swap a questionable frame out anyway, not so much for the dentist being a warrior on the weekends.

[@rumberitoboricua]

No safety glasses?

[@RixterNow]

rumberitoboricua exactly what I was wondering

[@pedallinraw]

rumberitoboricua 😐

[@durrantmiller8810]

Don't you know it feels good when razor sharp carbon fibers get in your eyes?

[@amassawi2622]

rumberitoboricua your such a geek bitch

[@tonyschwaller]

amas sawi a geek bitch with two working eyes is my guess. I'd wear the glasses

[@hukumbra]

i cant watch these videos how you braking good bikes, kids in africa could eat it. And i could ride it.

[@jtperez657]

instagram nerijasas lol

[@Gravityfed11]

instagram nerijasas eating carbon fibre? They'd have one hell of an itchy mouth and everything else!

[@Penta_Penguin_237]

instagram nerijasas AHAHA YOU ARE THE BEST!

[@brucetec6597]

Nerijus Africa is the richest continent so I don't get your point?

[@charlespastore4466]

Thanks for regurgitating the same terrible joke... Hope you think you're funny jackass!

[@MTBr-of-SoCal]

C'mon that's really misleading. First off, on the carbon, you could clearly hear the first few "snaps" around the mid 450lbs marks. That right there is enough to stop riding the frame.

[@RvasqA]

Just say you cant afford carbon on go on with ur life

[@MTBr-of-SoCal]

@@RvasqA LOL. Ok here it is, "I refuse to pay for carbon at premium prices when alum is just as good". Or, "I refuse to ride carbon because it's for elitists and weight wheenies who aren't pro riders".

[@RvasqA]

@@MTBr-of-SoCal i know a bunch of pro riders thatst use carbon but go on i guess 😂

[@strykeplaysmcjohnpickhypix1205]

Red Vasquez carbon is like a bunch of strands woven together. On the pinkbike test, when the carbon made a crack sound but didn’t break, what I’m thinking is that one of those fiberous strands started to unwound itsself from the rest of the fibers. That bike would still be rideable, but if carbon works because strands are woven together, I wouldn’t feel safe riding a bike where some of the strands unwound themselves. And also, unwounded strands makes the bike more likely to unwound even more strands. I rlly want carbon but it scares me. I hear ppl who use it for years and they’re fine, and ppl who use it for 5 days and crack it :/

[@Macca78]

@@strykeplaysmcjohnpickhypix1205 stay away from carbon frames my uncle works in carbon for sports cars he is a engineer to many stress points on carbon mountain bikes I will try find the video on KZbin of a lad on his santa cruz 1st day Rock flips up hits his downtube hole in his carbon bike after 1 hour. Most of these companies will be getting there carbon from China as my uncle said you get high end carbon done properly a mountain bike frame would cost u between 8 and 10 thousand pound on it's own easily he has shown me parts which is nowhere near the size of a bike frame which cost 3 thousand pound. And you can have a big hit on your carbon frame it will show no damage but could be damaged on the inside and look perfectly fine on the outside

[@robbieroscoe3078]

I love the way you start with a very formal scientific controlled area and end smashing it against a corner

[@HVYMETL]

These tests are for horizontal compression on the frame. What are the actual forces on the frame when you come down hard? Vertical?

[@JGstunts22]

Yeah but my worry is on that 1st test the creaking and breaking you heard on the carbon started at 750 pounds ... which means there was internal breaking or cracks happening that early right ?

[@amarokmc88]

I have Rocky Mountain thunderbolt 730 KS alloy frame. Nothing is wrong with the frame, it’s been through a lot of trails. I even rode my bike to red and black trails a hundred times. The bike is heavy but I’m okay and bike is alright. The only time I fear for my safety is when I do a hard descent it’s hard to control the bike.

[@shanescott9110]

A fail in the aluminum frame seems to equal bent, whereas the fail in the carbon frame equals snap/shattered. I would rather take my chances with a failing aluminum frame out on the trail.

[@charlespastore4466]

Shane Scott or you get cut on sharp aluminum...

[@harrystephenson5446]

Charles Pastore or you get shards of carbon going into you, then breaking apart inside of you making it much harder to remove... Your choice

[@VIPK9]

dumbass smh

[@GavynPendleton]

it will take a ridiculous fall for you to break either one.

[@joshuahuang07]

even with delamination on the carbon frame, the aluminum still completely failed before the carbon

[@gordontarpley]

I LOLed so hard at the "JRA" description (massive jump casing where the fork is driven...) . I worked at a shop for years and the amout of jra stories we heard about completely mangled bikes was amazing.

[@getsomemtb7427]

But the carbon started popping around 500lbs and we know how one fracture can lead to catastrophe. I stick with aluminum.

[@FullFledged2010]

Do these frames get tested the other way around as well? As a lot of frame snaps happen with un cleared jumps when the wheels are pulled outwards.

[@ThePolishedShooter]

Aluminium bends - carbon cracks. Choose wisely

[@zGJungle]

Both crack for me haha, about 7 ali frames and now a carbon one.

[@ThisMoth]

@@zGJungle I need to know what and why xD

[@zGJungle]

@@ThisMoth just normal DH riding, I'm pretty smooth, don't case often and I'm light! but have broken several nukeprooofs, a commencal, an orange, a Scott, and a demo.

[@ThisMoth]

@@zGJungle which one was the carbon one? I'm about to maybe possibly buy a carbon foil 10 from Scott that's 3 years old :)

[@zGJungle]

@@ThisMoth the demo was the carbon one, was the first of the 2016 carbon new shaped ones, Scott's have a really good reputation on thier carbon bikes for reliability, you should be fine, just go over very carefully checking before buying.

[@eelott]

My left ear enjoyed the first clip

[@johnnyvonline1862]

The carbon frame started making popping noises at 450 pounds indicating it had begun to delaminate....you want the best strength to weight ratio....go for titanium.

[@J_CART3R]

i have a cannondale and cannondale is a aluminum expert so i trust them😅

[@Cortes19882012]

Indeed! CAAD12 Ftw!

[@charlespastore4466]

Good ol crack 'n' fail

[@ziberouno]

I have a Kona oh wait....

[@DualDesertEagle]

@ ziberouno So do I! 12 years old and still strong enough to take the 4 ft drops onto flat ground that I like to do!

[@Vlapstone]

What if it is on the side of the carbon frame and with a pointing ending? The fear is to fall down and the bike hits a pointy rock on its side, it will simply make a hole on the frame.

[@kyleharnett4473]

Luciano Vlap Souza well at the very end they slam it against a corner of concrete, which is close enough. seems to be fucking strong

[@MTBIKEXC]

EXACTLY! While climbing a hill, I stalled out, tipped over (on a Giant XTC carbon bike) and landed softly but with most of my weight compressing the on the frame against a rock (not even on a pointy rock) and the frame totally cracked. Giant has a frame replacement deal where I can get a new one for $650 but man, I thought I just scratched the paint. I would love to see if a Santa Cruz could take a side squishing - not even an impact per se, just 200 lbs applied to it against a rock.

[@andresdavila4500]

Pois eh... tu viu a bike do Minaar quebrou em dois com um impacto lateral no meio do quadro...

[@MrPijus123]

@@MTBIKEXC I dont think any viable bike material could survive being driven into a rock corner with 200lbs of force falling on it.

[@BadGuySVK]

Impact of 110 lbs (50kg) from 900 mm (0.9m) has 450 joules of energy, which is equivalent to a 85kg rider on a 15kg bike crashing head on at about 10.8 kmph (6.7mph). That's an extreme case because normally, driver does not crash face first onto handle bars but he is thrown off the bike. If we consider a crashing weight of only 20 kg (15kg bike and a driver pushing a little bit on handle bars) than the frame breaking speed is about 24 kmph (15 mph) for a head on collision. Again, this is an oversimplification, because a bike frame during a real world crash is not crushed like this but it is more "springy" and the impact energy dissipates into frame rotation and vibrations of multiple parts over a longer period of time. I hope my math is right. :)

[@philz9835]

carbon frames are fantastic for roadies. I'd never personally own a carbon MB. they are super strong, obviously. but carbon doesn't like flung rock impacts. it doesn't dent. it breaks. at least aluminum well dent and you know you'll get home, generally speaking.

[@WildOutdoorLiving]

I worried about the same thing until I saw what a minor impact will do to an alloy down tube. Carbon does snap but it takes much more to damage it than alluminum does and once alloy bends it won't be very long before it snaps as well.

[@philz9835]

That is all true. But what I'm trying to say, instead of a crash impact and rather flinging rocks, carbon chips whereas the alloy will either scratch or get a very minor ding. I've helped repair a number of carbon bikes for me locally. I really appreciate the carbon frames. Just not for anything more than an XC bike. Too brittle.

[@coen8323]

If you have actually tested your theory and have proven it wrong with facts I would believe you

[@toofarpunk]

Yeah but does aluminum djent?

[@jessebittermann5530]

I will still use Aluminum frames, as I can't afford carbon in the first place, and I would be able to tell if my frame is bent or something.

[@MrJloa]

Yes, but u forget smth. 1 carbon frame = 2 or more alu frames considering the price. So I would rather buy 2 alu frames.

[@johnnybikesalot]

You watch this video... and yet I've seen many carbon fiber bikes simply endo at very low speed, go up on their front wheel, fall over to the side, land on a rock, and smash right through. It's nice and strong if the forces are applied to the mounting points... the BB, the head tube, the wheel mounts. But apply force anywhere else and you'll be in trouble. And rocks go flying pretty regularly in the places I bike in. Carbon makes me nervous.

[@samuelparamor3726]

You cam hear the carbon frame 'clicking' really early on in the test, that means the fibres are ripping, carbon is weaker

[@itstrilby2037]

they even try to hide it by fukking with the audio

[@LukeMegBiking]

100% Carbon is weaker!!!

[@iansmith381]

Yes you can hear the fibres ripping, but just because you cant hear anything with the aluminum doesnt mean nothing is happening. The grain structure in the aluminum is slowly deforming as stress is increasing. Carbon composites are proven to be stronger than aluminum, but composites are also less ductile, which is why there was a much more severe break when its ultimate stress was reached

[@samuelparamor3726]

@@iansmith381 but over time, when the fibres are ripped, that causes carbon to crack easily and aluminum is much better for that long term useage

[@iansmith381]

@@samuelparamor3726 The ripping of the fibres would definitely decrease the structural reliability, but the carbon fibres didnt severely start cracking until after 1500 lbs of force (although I'm sure there was slight grain deformation before this). But aluminum experiences similar issues over time. The aluminum has a lower yield stress, so when that stress is met the material practically deforms. This means it cant return to its initial position, and that it wont be able to take as much stress as it initially could. So if you were to only apply 800 lbs of force, the aluminum frame might still work, but would not be as reliable. Carbon fibre has a much higher yield stress, so it can handle larger forces and still be just as reliable. You should check out stress/strain graphs for carbon fibre and aluminum. Side note: I question the validity of the first test because bike failures are usually due to impact forces, but it's still super interesting to see

[@gnuhacking7145]

what is the cost of that table to test the frames? where is possible to buy it? It can works only with 380 Volts or it works with 240 Volts too? Awaiting for your reply as soon as possible greetings

[@serjoprot]

stereo sound isn't standard yet at SantaCruz

[@Steve-nu9op]

any close up pics of the frames downtube after hitting that concrete thing? cool test btw

[@captaincerrius8095]

@pinkbike isnt this just the same video you guys posted in 2012? www.pinkbike.com/news/santa-cruz-bicycles-test-lab.html

[@colbyperry3325]

Captain Cerrius yes i am not sure why they reposted this same video

[@Cj-nd3nv]

Guys, they did it cos SC paid them to and SC are losing out sales to far better options that are out this and last year.

[@the.communist]

Colby Perry cause they want u to buy overpriced carbon bikes

[@pinkbike]

Hey CJ, Yup this is an old video - just uploading some of our archive content to this channel. You'll see this is placed in the playlist "From The Archive". Santa Cruz didn't pay us to do this, the guys were just down in california and were allowed access to this testing process and managed to get some footage. Pretty sweet to see this, hopefully we'll head back again and see any updates they have!

[@Cj-nd3nv]

Hi Pinkbike, yeah I remember the first time showing and pretty impressive it was. There's no doubt SC were happy for you to video their carbon testing, but throwing it up here again in this manner will inevitably raise eyebrows, even from the least cynical. This sentiment is even more enhanced by the price of Santa Cruz bikes and the competition catching up in terms of performance (or perceived performance through marketing techniques) and in some cases bang for buck (think YT Industries and others). Yeah, the best thing to do would be to video SC's updates and a fresh carbon test video. More and more manufacturers would benefit from great magazines like yours going behind the scenes and showcasing latest innovations, but more so carbon fibre testing. After all, carbon fibre still has question marks (on durability) in the minds of most budget restricted consumers. More (up to date) vids, from more manufactures, like the one above will def. warm more peeps to CF.

[@markconnelly1806]

Does this also say the aluminum alloy frame is under built versus just carbon versus aluminum? I have had alu frames fail on a road bike without a single crash and I have alu mtb bikes that are still going after ten years even with some minor crashes.

[@saltysteel3996]

Now test carbon frames vs titanium frames.

[@keirfarnum6811]

Surprisingly, I have seen a titanium bike come apart at the welds. It’s rare, but it does happen.

[@paradox963]

You can't always see damage on Alloy, just look at alloy spoke nipples, I live on the east coast and salt air reeks havoc with alloy even well-maintained alloy. I have gone to true wheels and you turn an alloy spoke nipple that looks fine and it crumbles to dust, so unless you are routinely​ scoping the inside of your alloy frame you just never know.

[@bassboostedsociety7158]

those are my dream frames :( santa cruz frames :( Unfortunately i cant afford those type of frames :(

[@bsdimon2173]

BassBoosted Society I feel ya I can hardly afford a gt frame

[@reddaB]

There are so many opportunities for thinks to bounce or explode in to people's faces or bodies in this video. Stay away from things under breaking loads behind a shield or like wear glasses. I think I saw a comment saying they now wear safety gear.

[@slovakbikeparks]

I saw a fair test provided by Greg Minaar on his carbon V10 :D

[@GavynPendleton]

Yea but any bike would have been just as messed up. the carbon cracked but an alloy bike would have been folded in half around the pole.

[@BanceSun]

how about internal damages? if the alu looks good, it works good. But I would be very worried if my carbon bike has been hit that hard and looks fine from outside

[@dougbowers8759]

I do think more of carbon now, however either seems plenty good, aluminum seems reliable, carbon seems mysterious.

[@derfaschist9687]

Exactly..... a metal is durable and also trustworthy than artificial materials.

[@garrettyoung9]

How would a case force the bottom bracket tho move toward the fork. It would bend the other way. I have never seen a bike break for towards the frame!

[@fishtownkungfu]

Carbon frame sounded like pop corn when breaking

[@dimasmarcellnurwahid194]

So basicly i thought that my headphone were broken but it was the video problem,so you win,you freak me out congratulations

[@jessbread4670]

Would still recommend aluminum which is way more safer and can easily detect visible damage Than carbon you have risk using a damaged undetectable frame And carbon snaps when it breaks Aluminum just bends and way more cheaper

[@FMeyer-zg5mg]

i would never buy a carbon bike, but be aware aluminium, even steel, can snap.

[@owenissimo]

Carbon nowadays are why stronger

[@ssjj9584]

So a quick impact will break carbon with less pressure?? Also every jump case I’ve seen the front wheel is pushed out right?

[@Almajtek]

When carbon fails it's a catastrophic fail. When aluminium fail it's just non catastrophic, it just bends, you can ride it home...

[@andyjayso4551]

u are right, when carbon fail, it will crack instantly, can be pretty dangerous.

[@RobertoGonzalez-bz8si]

what field of study is this testing, or what do you major in? Im interested in this

[@ijustdontknowguy842]

When you first hear the cracks is when the bike fails

[@pipelineaudio]

The drop test is scary either way to me. I was amazed at the strength in the compression test of carbon. I come from a lifetime of riding BMX in skatparks and such, the drop test to me seems like neither frame held up to a typical day's BMX riding, but I don't know if I'm looking at the variables correctly, while the compression test went way way way beyond what even a dirt jumper would see. Am I looking at this wrong?

[@nikolaihedler8883]

Yep; the amount of force involved in the rigid impact test is way higher than it seems, because nothing else is allowed to take up the impact. In a normal crash, the entire force of your body is not applied to the bike in that manner, because your body flexes and absorbs most of the impact by shifting your body position or letting go of the bike.

[@nbzness]

I feel like this test is totally invalid. First off.. when you case a jump its fast impact. What you demonstrated there was a slow progression resulting in bending the aluminum frame. Carbon fiber frame snaps on fast impacts. Like glass but metal? I'm no scientist but I don't think this is good example. And also I watch alot videos on youtube. And all I see is carbon snapping not bending. And also I don't think carbon fiber is made for mtbing. High price high risk. Chromly is a better material imo. Steel bend but don't snap making it safer in a situation where you case a jump. The chromly frame would absorb most of the impact by bending where as carbon fiber snaps fast on impact. Resulting the rider hitting the ground with full force n no absorption.

[@purpytwinzo4290]

well said

[@CAVEMANADVENTURE]

Is the creaking of the carbon not a sign of the frame cracking or atleast micro fractured?

[@NoOne56488]

I would be more worried about my body if i was experiencing this kind of pressure in a crash.

[@michaelmichaelagnew8503]

Well its your body creating that pressure with the help of gravity. It's not the crash that breaks the bike, for carbon its the constant stress your body with the help of gravity puts on it that weakens it over time. Eventually it splits apart. You never know when it will happen cause with fiber its always sudden.

[@nookguy4318]

I payed 240 dollars for my aluminuim bike. Will the frame last. I dont any trail riding or harsh tricks and jumping none of that. I just ride around town. But can it still fail?

[@Budrick3Gaming]

After watching single track sampler have his carbon frame snap on him with the potential of seriously injuring him, I swore up and down that I would never go carbon. With my luck, the frame would go straight through my chest.

[@xvllethan]

my left ear really enjoyed this video :)

[@mucachis]

Never felt so much stress in my life for the carbon frame....

[@dudeonbike800]

There's a guy on YT who ran his S&S coupled Co-Motion into a car and folded the top & down tubes. He complained vociferously that he was JRA and it shouldn't have broken. Something to the effect that, "Bikes shouldn't break like that!" Well, they wouldn't have to... if you wouldn't mind riding a 100 pound bike! Had the classic JRA experience: College kid comes in, "Hey man, I want to warranty my bike." We're like, "OK, let's take a look." Steel frame with down tube folded on the underside, at the head tube. Classic "ran into something" failure. But we've been around the block a few times, so we say, "This isn't 'our call,' so we're going to have our ACME BIKE rep come in and take a look." He came in and confirmed that this was a frontal impact. What further proved the point was when the rep held a straight edge along the top tube - also bent. Bowed up, proving a frontal impact was so high to buckle the down tube, but also so high it deformed the top tube. No warranty, but ACME BIKE offered a discounted replacement frame through their crash replacement program. Needless to say, the customer wasn't pleased. Complained up and down that he was "JRA and the bike's a piece of shit!" and all that. A week later, his frat buddy comes in and says, "John tried to warranty his frame? He was riding home from a frat party drunk when he ran into the back of a parked car!" JRA MY ASS!!!! Bike manufacturers COULD make bikes to withstand frontal impacts, no problem. But then they'd also want to anticipate all other sorts of impacts, accidents and stupid rider acts. They COULD make bikes indestructible if they wanted. But then they'd weigh a hundred pounds and no one would want to ride them. Their sales would dry up and they'd quickly go out of business competing with 22 lb. bikes - that do break when you drunkenly ride into the back of a car!

[@MsTbeasT]

Why haven't you done a new one since this one? This one is far from a fair test, although on the surface it seems impressive. A lot of questions left unanswered here, and the test throws up questions in itself, such as why do they compare off the shelf aluminium frames against used Carbon? All the frames are pre-selected for the test. Why not allow any frame from the shelf be used, randomly selected by someone independent...? If their carbon is so good, why haven't they done another test in 5 years?

[@SwearyCyclist]

I'm happy with my SC bronson especially with the lifetime warranty

[@pinchpeak5203]

The only thing you can't test in that lab is price, and that's all I care about. Alloy wins

[@exothermal.sprocket]

First audible signs of carbon crackling: frame is compromised. Notice I did NOT say unrideable. I said compromised. It's not as strong as it was before the first audible signs of crackle.

[@gregpear606]

This makes me feel better about my carbon frame

[@timking2822]

Amazing. I'm glad I own a Santa Cruz.

[@codename1015]

Although the strength of aluminum was low, the aluminum was plastically deformed and the carbon was just broken. If you hit hard while riding the bike or fall from a high place, a load greater than the test load will be applied to the frame anyway. An elongated frame is much safer than a frame that breaks when force is applied. And it is clear that cracks or delamination may have occurred in the carbon frame as well if the load enough to break aluminum anyway. Aluminum is cheaper and safer for general use. Also, since carbon is hand-made, the quality between products is similar but slightly different. If the number of tests had been increased, aluminum would have a constant breaking strength, whereas carbon would certainly have a broken frame under a much weaker load!

[@maksimloginov9365]

Cool video ! Thanks ! What is the weight difference between alu and carbon front triangle ?

[@Metal-Possum]

It's great that we're arguing over durability and comfort and all these other factors, but what about the environmental issues associated with carbon fibre production? Aluminium is better for the planet. One of these days your aluminium frame will be a beverage container, your carbon frame will be a lump of toxins and lung irritants.

[@joski9030]

Who cares we will all be dead soon anyway too many hippies out there suddenly woke it’s boring, I smoke dope I ride I recycle I wear hemp but I don’t expect that to make a difference the world can not be saved. Enjoy what you got and chill.

[@oswaggy]

What type of carbon material was used on the carbon frame?

[@adamedunn]

Carbon fiber

[@maxxzh96]

It seems like every comment here is just trying to convince themselves that alu is better than carbon so they don't feel like they have a cheaper frame and are not as good or legit

[@Krikstar123]

How about no? But good job on justifying the extra money you spend getting carbon over alloy... LOL! My alloy frames can be made in to new bikes. Your carbon frames will end in a dump forever.

[@samyakprajapati1014]

Is it just for santa cruz carbon frames or are all carbon frames strong?

[@PresiMinchev]

This test makes me go for Cro-Mo frame!

[@eldelabicidecolores]

Пресиян Минчев i have a CroMo frame now and its strong af

[@jepanlife5627]

what kind of situation youll be putting 2000lbs stress ona carbon frame bike? jumping from a 20stories building?

[@GustavoHerediaActor]

I’d still prefer aluminum,I’d feel safer.

[@CanonFirefly]

Will Santa Cruz share their warranty data for CF vs Al ?

[@yolotech7889]

i'll bet you steel frames are tougher than that

[@kriszt7370]

you must be fuckin joking please

[@DouglasGardnerTV]

there are some extremely expensive steel bikes. Also titanium bikes too

[@electricdeckhead3083]

yep, 4130 chro mo, full rigid 20 inch jump and street bikes etc been using it for years, triple butted heat treated Japanese chro mo, rigid forks etc, quite simply put carbon would shit itself in these conditions and intended uses.

[@TheyForcedMyHandLE]

Make a CF frame as heavy as a chromoly frame and go head to head...

[@paulg.666]

Easy to get a steel bike as light as Carbon. There were 6kg steel bikes in the 1950's

[@Operation3Sixty]

The bike i want is $700 differnce from alloy to carbon and 2.3 pounds difference. Is it worth it?

[@piciu256]

What's the point of reposting this old video? Just do a new similar thing lol And I'm pretty sure peopple would be more interrested in seeing this sort of comparison, but made on superlight XC frames ;) I'm pretty sure the results would be very different.

[@johnmartin9907]

Piotr Sulej that's exactly what i was wondering.

[@NaveenKumar-oj7xh]

Why did you make the audio for my right ear only?

[@ijustdontknowguy842]

Ok so they stop the testing when the aluminum frame bends?? They should stop the testing when the carbon frame makes the first creaking sound then.

[@nvkulk]

Most Americans weight 1000 lbs so both frames should be adequate!

[@Bayplaces]

To be fair, they should've pushed the aluminum frame until it snapped. The number of cracking sounds the carbon made before failing is enough to be sure that frame was toast long before it snapped. Gotta love the one dude that shields his eyes and turns away while the rest of the crew looks on. Safety glasses go a long way.

[@michaelmichaelagnew8503]

They are a pro carbon company and not a pro aluminum company. Think they discontinued all their aluminum models could be wrong.

[@schlooonginator1227]

Lol, there are lots of people defending aluminum in the comments but the clear reality is that carbon is much stronger. Sure you can ride a dented aluminum frame home whereas carbon just breaks...BUT it breaks at massively higher forces where it may not have to be broken...and its probably significantly lighter.

[@orangejuicepony6881]

Based on the amount of posts on FB on how to repair cracked carbon frames, I would say aluminium is stronger in the real world.

[@gvnrchmnd]

That’s because you can’t repair aluminium frames 😂

[@lordnggamermtpoppy3829]

Carbon Toray T800 is it good?

[@josephjaramillosr.1234]

I’ve seen many carbon frames crack with just simple tip overs onto a rock. I have a carbon Heckler and a carbon pivot. I’m super careful with both because of this reason.

[@reynemanzano]

Yup, force applied at a single point differs from forced distributed across a surface. I’d like to see that difference explored in tests as well

[@reynemanzano]

It may be that aluminum is weaker on distributed impacts but stronger as far as sharp or single-point impacts. Think about how a car wind shield works for perspective

[@michaelmichaelagnew8503]

@@reynemanzano High grade aluminum used in bikes is as strong as carbon just a pound or two heavier and they ride different. Most prefer the ride of aluminum after using both.

[@reynemanzano]

@@michaelmichaelagnew8503 I prefer carbon after using both. According to an aerospace engineering friend, carbon will degrade over time though. He doesn’t cycle but mentioned wanting aluminum for long-term if he did

[@pbk9]

Only thing you showed is the fact that the carbon could be damaged and you can't see it. Or you think it's save to ride the frame after the test before it actually cracked visibly?

[@sab611]

but the forks were Steel ;)

[@WildOutdoorLiving]

Solid steel, they probably weighed 20-30lbs on their own.

[@dflores1999]

Wild Outdoor Living j

[@vangilanteryan713]

Wow. This is cool. I still want to be a carbon bike tester... KZbin, stickered up van, DH parks... Looking for a sponsor to work with for next season. Im going to try (not try, i guarantee you i can break it lol) and break it though via riding. Any companies interested?