Carthago Delenda Est: The 3rd Punic War and the End of a Civilization

[@tribunateSPQR]

Do you believe that the destruction of Carthage was justified?

[@aegirkarl1411]

No more than Athens.

[@gorygremlin13]

Yes

[@SeanHH1986]

certainly not. look at how they merged and assimilated with others and their cultures. even pragmatically, that was tens to hundreds of thousands of tax revenue producers, murdered.

[@Adsper2000]

I don’t care if it was justified or not, I only wish it didn’t happen so we could have more surviving Phoenician writings today.

[@CelticLifer]

no chance

[@1917girl]

Tribunate always looking for the perfect opportunity to sprinkle a bit of Cato hate into a video. we love it! I had no idea how sad the destruction of Carthage was. Not to be that person, but I can see a lot of modern parallels in this story!

[@tribunateSPQR]

I'll never pass up on an opportunity to drag Cato (either of them). The parallels were intentional - it's deeply shameful but these massacres still occur even in our "civilized" modern age.

[@FelixVenator]

You reap what you sow

[@justinstrong9595]

​@@FelixVenatorlow iq take. You definitely justified the civilian massacres in Iraq and Iran.

[@Basauri.48970]

Something tells me he is referring to a different ongoing genocide instead. ​But I concur his is a low iq and wicked take. @@justinstrong9595

[@Warmaker01]

Biggest one in recent American history is our lead up to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. False claims that Iraq had WMDs and supported Al Qaeda, all of which was bull. Even America's staunchest allies were telling that US "intelligence" was wrong. The US was simply adamant in doing the invasion no matter what. 4 years after invasion and failed occupation of Iraq, the US is tired. Lots of people dead on both sides. ISIS grew out of this. But the biggest winner out of this failed American adventure? It definitely wasn't the US. I'd say not even the Iraqi government because the country was left in ruins and unstable with even more foreign influence. No. The real winner out of the US invasion and occupation of Iraq was Iran. Iran had long been a rival with Iraq. They had a very long and bloody war between the two countries in the 1980s. But the Iranian government also despises the USA. So imagine their glee when Iraq, who once got support from the US during the Iran-Iraq War, were now slaughtering each other? How much more comedic can you get? This also greatly weaken the Iraqi military and central government and Iran's influence in the country grew greatly as a result. Oh: And with a tired United States withdrawing from Iraq, that's when China get more aggressive in the Pacific and Russia doing its invasion of Ukraine in 2014. Because the United States was politically and militarily tired. And at the time, was also still occupying Afghanistan.

[@Mmu12059]

Rome’s paranoia at Carthage’s continued wealth is slightly more understandable when you remember that this wealth had always been one of their main military advantages since it let them hire mercenaries easily, so if they’d wanted to they could hire a new army in a day, and as Cato’s figs were meant to demonstrate, they could have it at Rome’s doorstep in three

[@xxora6568]

theres been a trend of people discussing rome and its fall, and what it could mean for our civilisation. But roman civilisation lasted in some form for 2 millennia and influences us even today. Reading about the fall of carthage always give me an eerie feeling, what if your civilisation was crushed with most people in the future not even knowing it existed

[@StanGB]

I'm starting to get the feeling you don't like these Cato guys

[@tribunateSPQR]

Guilty as charged

[@John-qd5of]

I watched a documentary about French archeologists studying the ruins of Carthage. What I discovered was that these people had begun to learn a lot about how everyday Carthaginians lived their lives, how they did business, and how they did horticulture and agriculture. The archeologists understood the Carthaginian language well-it is actually a lot like Hebrew. Their currency was even called the Shekel. The tragedy is that with the destruction of Carthage and the removal of its library, most of the history and literature of the city was obliterated. There is a lot that would surprise and delight us in that library if only it could be found and its contents understood.

[@rod9829]

Phoenicians being a Semitic people is the link

[@starcapture3040]

Phoenicians, Amorites, Hebrew, Ammonites, Moabite, Edomites , Arabs, Akkadians. are all the same people with a related language but different accents. but Modern Hebrew is fake reconstructed language a different story. people of Carthage were Semitic people from the levant.

[@constantius4654]

The loss of the great library at Carthage has deprived us of so much knowledge about the city and the ancient world in general.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Yes - it would be so fascinating to read about the Punic Wars from Carthage's perspective

[@shamsishraq6831]

"Rome has the right to defend itself from Punic terrorists! Besides, we are the chosen people of Jupiter, the Sibylline books say so!" - Cato, probably

[@tribunateSPQR]

I would imagine he said something very similar to this

[@sa_7467]

You're videos are amazing, and very thought provoking. Just watching them makes it clear how much y'all love history to shed light not only on the victors but the vanquished too

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks! One of our primary goals with this channel is to reorient history towards those that are often neglected by the version that has been propagated by the victors.

[@giansideros]

19:29 how is the current Mayor of Carthage a succesor to the Carthaginians? By the same merit, the Mayor of London is a successor to the Roman Empire too. As far as I'm aware Carthage was utterly annihilated and has no continuity in either culture, language or polity. The modern region of Tunisia became a Roman colony and remained Romance speaking and Roman in identity (even under the Visigoths), till the time of the Islamic conquest. This gesture feels hollow when an actual equivalent of the Carthaginians aren't around to reconcile their own genocide.

[@sterlingcampbell2116]

Rome never fell the same way Carthage did. Roman influence is still alive and well while few know anything of the punic state.

[@hugodesrosiers-plaisance3156]

I think the destruction of Carthage was not justified in any definite way other than in Rome's political, economic and territorial ambitions. Mago was a Carthaginian scholar who has written at length on the subject of agriculture. His work was picked up and integrated into Roman culture, as Romans usually did with anything useful they came across. The Romans knew the Carthaginians had a worthy culture. Hannibal, for some reason, after dragging elephants over the Alps, stopped short of sacking Rome itself. The Romans knew the Carthaginians had a worthy military. When the Romans got their hands on a Carthaginian ship, they found markings on every wooden beam, indicating a systematized and standardized ship-building industry, not unlike a modern Ikea kit. It immensely helped the Roman with building their own navy force. The Carthaginians were very much developped, socially, culturally, economically and militarily. My point is, there very well could be an "alternate history timeline" in which Carthage instead of Rome comes out on top. And then there's absolutely no telling how things would've ended up. I just find it fascinating to ponder about.

[@sterlingcampbell2116]

Hannibal had very good reasons for not besieging Rome. First, he had no siege equipment. They would have bounced off Rome's walls over and over. Second, there was a considerable Roman army in the area and besieging Rome would have made the Carthaginian army susceptible a two front battle that certainly would have severed all supply chains. So silly when dweebs on the Internet act like they know better than one of the greatest generals of all time. Carthage lost because leadership failed to support Hannibal and the war. NOT because Hannibal chose not to foolishly sacrifice his army trying to besiege Rome with too small an army with zero siege works.

[@hugodesrosiers-plaisance3156]

@@sterlingcampbell2116 Why do so many people online feel it's okay to throw insults at others? Dweeb? Come on, that was totally uncalled for.

[@sterlingcampbell2116]

@@hugodesrosiers-plaisance3156 You're seriously victimizing over being called a dweeb? Or if it really your comment being called out that's got you defensive? I get that everybody wants to be a victim these days but let's not blow things out of proportion. You can say what you want and I can say what I want.

[@hugodesrosiers-plaisance3156]

@@sterlingcampbell2116 It seems you don't like being called out over uselessly insulting others. Must be a recurring behavior on your part. 🙃

[@jaybee2185]

How often do you think about the Roman Empire? Every time a new Tribunate video drops of course.

[@JohnVance]

Yeah, that tracks.

[@tribunateSPQR]

One of the only instances of a right wing think tank being honest in their branding

[@CBrace527]

Very illuminating - shows the horror at the heart of the ancient world

[@backalleycqc4790]

You mean, it shows the horror in our hearts, regardless of the era. We can be directed to commit unspeakable horror, by others or the voices inside our heads.

[@richardarden4620]

Very appreciative of the unapologetically leftist history presented here. Few KZbin history creators dare to bring a critical lens to this area of history or to draw modern parallels.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you - we feel that the modern perspective is required, not just to make sense of the past but to show why it is relevant for the present

[@deathmagneto-soy]

8:35 - "Our revenge will be the laughter of our children" ✊ ☘

[@tribunateSPQR]

🇵🇸🇮🇪

[@deathmagneto-soy]

@@tribunateSPQR - It's a bond forged from a shared history and it's why the Unionists in the north often fly the Ulster red hand next to the confederate battle flag and the Israeli flag. From the river to the sea our brothers will be free.

[@Ghost23712]

Such an interesting video with the narrative it builds as it progresses! You've got a new subscriber!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks, very glad to have you on board!

[@Sowhat300]

Finally, a thoughtful scholarly recounting of the destruction of Carthage.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Very glad you enjoyed it!

[@Ancient__Wisdom]

I know the meme is "Men think about the Roman Empire" but I always think about Carthage and how different the world would be if they had won

[@carbiv]

We'd all be jewish

[@berzang5838]

@@carbivwhat

[@m.streicher8286]

​@@carbivbetter than christian

[@carbiv]

@@m.streicher8286 juden

[@carbiv]

@@m.streicher8286 Do u really believe that? Why?

[@TobyTubeS]

Cato Delenda Est

[@T.Riker_]

Great video, new subscriber!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks for the sub and the positive feedback!

[@rahul87184]

I believe it was the very nature of Carthaginian politics that led to the slaughter. If the Barcid family had full support of the cartaginian state, the third punic war could have been very different. The thing is, Romans understood war is profitable and the carthegenian elite didn't. Great video btw, I hope you cover the Gracchi brothers in your future videos

[@tribunateSPQR]

Well said! I've wanted to do a series on the Gracchi since starting this channel but kept putting it off until I felt comfortable in my production skills for this type of content. Now that I've got my bearings I'll certainly cover them directly in the near future

[@John-qd5of]

At least the Carthaginian language has been deciphered and archeologists can read it.

[@John-qd5of]

It is a Semitic language.

[@brenokrug7775]

That's the first new upload I get after becoming a subscriber, and it's a good one! As I'm seeing, they always are actually. I've been watching your videos daily, but not too much as to not see all of them and have none left hahah The narrative is so good and in depth, I love it!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks, really glad you like the content! Going in depth means we don't get them out as often as other channels but we always want to add a unique perspective instead of simply recounting past events.

[@brenokrug7775]

@@tribunateSPQR it really sounds like a more analytical look on these events, reminiscent of what one might hear in the more critic and up to date academic circles on the topic. One day I'll make time to have good reads about this time period! And as always, quality > quantity, even though these content platforms will try to convince the creators otherwise. Salve do Brasil 😄

[@chr0matic556]

yayy new video :)

[@tribunateSPQR]

Was on vacation and that knocked us a bit off schedule - we're going to get back to a more consistent upload schedule soon

[@chr0matic556]

@@tribunateSPQR that's awesome!

[@mahatmarfigo]

Love love loooove these videos

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you so much!

[@yidavv]

I love your videos. Always giving me new perspectives on things. Some new things to explore from this video. Thank you for your work. Your channel is srsly underrated

[@vikingodin1986]

Rome was never going to pass up on the wealth of carthage ...always amazes me of the timelength of these wars ..descendants after descendants

[@screetstreet3232]

Best roman history channel on youtube🙌

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you! That means so much to us

[@Bakarost]

just found ur channel love the video subbed keep up the good work sir

[@tribunateSPQR]

Welcome aboard! Thanks for the sub and the kind feedback

[@m.streicher8286]

Carthage did the worst thing possible - bruise the roman ego

[@matthewct8167]

So obsessed were the Romans with destroying Carthage that this city wasn’t rebuilt until the imperial era.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Gaius Gracchus was the first to try but he failed because Romans were still scared to build on the site decades later because they had cursed it.

[@mamacoloco7285]

​@@tribunateSPQRThe more I read about the Gracchi the more I come to feel as if they were men far beyond their historical age in many ways; of course, not all ways, but still, many.

[@alex_zetsu]

I know that the Carthaginians in the 3rd Punic War weren't even of Hannibal's generation, but man was that effective. Rome never had to deal with them again. I think we can learn a lot about how to use a victory from them.

[@Leonard-td5rn]

Carthage also had quite a few farms which never wanted war with Rome. It was the merchant class that wanted war. Carthage also ransacked Roman supply ships that were bringing food etc to Roman army

[@harkonen1000000]

You should note that a Roman talent was 32.3 kg, thus making the Carthage's reparations 323 metric tons of silver, or 712093 lb of silver.

[@user-nd8rp9tl4k]

If we use the current price of silver, that equates to around $310 million. However, if one were to adjust for its worth in an ancient, pre-modern, non-capitalists economy, this would probably be equivalent to billions of dollars in today's money. Which is an enormous amount of wealth in reparations and harkens to modern examples of post-war reparations and the way they were extracted. It certainly explains why it took the Carthaginians so many years to repay. With regards to the question of whether Carthage should have been annihilated like that, my answer would be no, by any standards either modern or ancient. From a moral standpoint, the answer is obviously no, and I do not think that anyone one has the right to destroy an entire culture, regardless of the power differential. The fact that those who have commited those actions in history have also often found themselves on the other side of this power dynamic, just proves this point, in my opinion. This just perpetuates and endless cycle of war and destruction. I would argue that even from a practical standpoint it was wrong. It removed a repository of vast wealth that could have been taxed by the Romans consistently (for the 'protection' they were offering). The Romans could have mediated between the Numidians and Carthaginians and benefited from both, all the while keeping both weak. In addition, it did not work as a deterrent of future revolt or insubordination of local powers. It did not stop Athens or Corinth in Greece standing against the Romans, it did not stop Mithridates plundering the Roman province of Asia, and it did not stop northern tribal peoples like the Gauls and Germans waging war and revolting against the Roman republic. Would the Punics have behaved any different to the Romans if they had won so completely? Maybe not, but also maybe they would have been more merciful, if not from a moral place, then from a practical one, as they were merchants in heart and destroying an entire city is usually bad for business. The Athenians and the Thebans or the Macedonians would have probably been as cruel as the Romans.

[@Leonard-td5rn]

Romans have Carthage Spain so they could extract silver

[@Warmaker01]

The Hellenic world dominating Roman culture was very complete. When Rome itself fell and all that remained of the Empire was based in the east, it's the Greek world that kept the Roman Empire running for 1000 more years. They considered themselves Romans out east. Their enemies considered the Roman Empire still continued in Constantinople.

[@tequilamockingbird758]

Just found your channel, good stuff.

[@tribunateSPQR]

thank you! Glad you found it informative

[@Warmaker01]

I know ancient and medieval warfare had many periods of bloody slaughter of captured cities and towns. The destruction of Carthage was IMO even more distasteful than most of these others as the people of the city willingly submitted to Rome's dominance several times over as part of the terms of losing the Second Punic War. Over 50 years of peace since the end of that war and no sign of Carthage getting all militant up to that time. As you pointed out, when the Legions finally arrived for the final time in Africa, they AGAIN willingly submitted to Rome and complied with their terms. Then Rome threw in that last requirement that they knew that Carthage would never accept, giving them the casus belli they were really looking for. Rome had done some bad stuff in their years of expansion, but this was very low and scummy. It was all a waste of time. They *could* have gotten Carthage to pay more again. Maybe they could have gotten them to be a client state, which was something the Roman Republic was doing a lot of in the years post-Second Punic War. This stuff even led to many of such territories becoming provinces. Carthage had no interest in war and empire building anymore. They just wanted to do their tradition of maritime trade. Rome could have profited off that. Instead they destroyed what could have been a continued source of money. Rome settled a new Carthage in the same area years later, starting over. It was nothing more than a waste of time because there was once an already thriving Carthage.

[@abrahamel-gothamy6472]

That’s so crazy how much hate people can have

[@HD-mp6yy]

Carthago delenda est

[@Leonard-td5rn]

Carthage had a large empire that's where they got their mercenaries. Carthaginian citizens did not want to fight in wars. Archeologists also found that Carthaginians were not social to each other. Their homes had lots of seperate rooms unlike Roman homes

[@vlads3283]

Carthago Delenda Est!

[@mra4521]

Is it legal to accuse Cato of hypocrisy for all his rustic cabbage farmer things when he was a rich slaver with plantations?

[@tribunateSPQR]

I agree, he was probably too stupid to be self aware enough to be considered a hypocrite

[@mra4521]

@@tribunateSPQR that fits. Most of Rome’s most famous men strike me as being like that. I call the Romans of history and Terrans of 40k “the murder morons” for a reason.

[@tribunateSPQR]

@@mra4521 Apt comparison!

[@starcapture3040]

Carthage was a noble Victim but the Punic people survived all over north Africa and Spain so the genocide might had been exaggerated. the ummyued conquest sadly destroyed the city again and its stone was re used to build Tunis. I hope one day archaeologists can find a hidden Carthaginian library in the desert. similar to Assure bani baal library.

[@WorthlessWinner]

The only competition Cato the elder has for "most successful failure" is Cato the younger

[@tribunateSPQR]

The family certainly had a knack for being remembered the way they wanted to, regardless of the actual facts

[@Leonard-td5rn]

Greeks wrote quite a bit about Carthaginian history The only books the Carthaginians wrote were technical manuals

[@thevenbede767]

I mean a Poeni eventually became a roman emperor so the Carthaginians weren't completely destroyed

[@PerseusJackson-ud3gq]

And that's when the hold sacrifices ended

[@tribunateSPQR]

Carthaginian human sacrifice was unquestionably barbaric, but we must remember that Rome never claimed to be fighting this war to "civilize" Carthage or improve the lot of its citizens. It was always a war of extermination, and the eradication of 650,000 people doubtlessly included hundreds of thousands of children - hard to paint Rome as the more virtuous party if saving the lives of children is our standard. Furthermore, though Rome had a stated aversion to human sacrifice in reality it embraced public executions for Christians and members of other religious communities that they believed offended Rome's gods. So people were killed to secure continued divine favor which is functionally identical to human sacrifice but just with a few added steps.

[@MTTC-me5dj]

​@@tribunateSPQR i heard that rome sacrified children to neptune? It would be quite ironic on a way

[@piantgenis6080]

Cato the Younger really did live up to his Great Grandfathers legacy by being the most failed failure of the Republic.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Both are a testament to what happens when you're so high on nostalgia that you can't understand that the mythic past never actually existed.

[@Leonard-td5rn]

Carthaginians were rebuilding their Navy They defied peace treaty with Rome

[@kw19193]

A really, really good video. Well done mate. But (there's always an irritating one of these, yes?), let's split a few heirs, I mean, hairs. Throughout its existence Carthage was a far more harsh overlord than Rome ever was. Even brother Punic cities like Utica chafed under its rule. The exponential growth of the mercenary army at the end of the first war with Rome did not occur in a vacuum, it happened because of the very profound hatred Carthage's subject peoples held for it. Too, remember that at the end no-one came to Carthage's aid thus making Rome's task considerably easier. Carthage's fate was determined at the end of the second war. If not Cato it would have been some other optimate leading the charge. Finally, the city was not cursed, neither was it strewn with salt (which I don't believe you claimed). The Romans knew a good thing when they saw it. Cheers!

[@nebojsag.5871]

How do we know Carthage actually had 700 000 people? That seems quite high without a vast tributary empire to supply free food.

[@nebojsag.5871]

Cato really was just so cartoonishly evil and so cartoonishly evil-looking that you really have a difficult time believing he actually existed.

[@gabo1841997]

I get the feeling Tribunate is definitely a liberal.

[@pittuk6500]

Romans annihilated the wrong enemy.

[@rocketpod1]

Who was the right enemy

[@KhalerJex]

It looks like today in palestine.

[@tr4hek]

The resilience of Palestine ensures its enduring existence, marking a significant distinction.

[@OnurUysal-nc3fu]

No. Not even close.

[@libertatemadvocatus1797]

Well, it looks like Palestine if the attitudes of the Rome and Carthage were reversed, but not their relative power. It's Hamas that believes "Judea delenda est" and keeps trying to attempt it despite being at a clear military disadvantage.

[@tr4hek]

@@libertatemadvocatus1797 It's quite amusing to see the IDF constantly struggling with their military disadvantage. They can't seem to achieve any of their objectives and have yet to secure a single victory. Every offensive they launch is swiftly halted by the resistance, leaving them in a state of embarrassment. Meanwhile, Hezbollah keeps raining rockets on their occupied northern Palestine, causing Zionist settlements to be abandoned left and right. The world is growing more and more disgusted by these so-called Zionist entities, who claim victimhood while committing acts of genocide. Your old tricks won't work anymore, and it's just a matter of time before you European Jews go back to where you came from. Palestine will be liberated, and even Haaretz themselves have admitted that defeat is inevitable.

[@tr4hek]

@@libertatemadvocatus1797 The roots of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians go back to the Nakba of 1948 when European Jews displaced Palestinians from their land, leading to the establishment of Hamas in 1989 during the first intifada to resist this oppression. The narrative that this conflict began recently is misleading, as it has deep historical roots that date back to the displacement of Palestinians from their homes and the creation of refugee camps. Hamas was formed as a response to the violence and injustice inflicted on the Palestinian people, aiming to protect civilians and resist the occupation of their lands by Israel. The idea that Palestinians would not fight back against oppression is false, as Hamas was established to defend their rights and work towards the liberation of their lands from Israeli occupation. The propaganda spread by Hasbara bots like yourself to justify their actions is no longer convincing to the public at large, as the truth about the historical injustices faced by Palestinians is becoming more widely known.

[@sanisadiqnayaya2606]

I don’t know why this sounds like an ancient scenario of America and some Middle East nation. It’s just wonderful how strongest empire of every civilization consider a very minority entity threatening to their existence 😁

[@watchesandcoins.7738]

Cato was antisemitic. The Punics were a prosperous Semetic people who the Romans envied.

[@iverstylen5829]

that's not what that means

[@MohammadIqbal-hi8hq]

@@iverstylen5829 Netnyahu and his zionist gangs are just like Cato

[@fileleutheros2577]

You speak of the crimes of Rome. All what you say is real. No doubt about that part. What you neglect to think about is the reason why carthage suffered such horrible fate. It was not strong enough... As simple as that. This in effect justifies Rome's militarism. The Roman citizens where not killed en masse because they were strong. The Carthaginians died or were enslaved because they were weak. Later on when Rome became weak the same fate befell upon them in reverse. They were living in that kind of world at the time. So criticizing them for being immoral when they are strengthening themselves pillaging other people is in fact very silly. The Gauls were moral paragons by your standards and then they became dead and enslaved moral paragons. Their morality didn't save them at all. The Roman crimes also were not punished by any god. They thrived. Roman citizens generally had a better deal in life than provincials on average. In fact these people also generally understood the fact that if they became weak such a fate would befall them. Carthage was too close to Rome, if Rome was preoccupied elsewhere they could cause problems. Destroying them was sound policy.

[@ShehuStebe]

Excellent video, excellent channel. Good job, guys. Y’all are gonna make it big in no time.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks so much!