Catch Wrestling is DOOMED!

I genuinely believe that Catch Wrestling is slowly but surely disappearing, if you want to hear why then thi sis the video for you.
Also I'm on antibiotics for a chest infection so please excuse the heavy breathing...

[@papabear328]

I think as the no gi scene is evolving and gaining in popularity (due to the faster pace it's more exciting for spectators as well), especially when looking at ADCC which is arguably the top no gi grappling competition currently, we are seeing a merge of no gi bjj and wrestling (catch and other styles) and the no gi game is effectively becoming its own animal under the term "grappling".

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yep, can't disagree with that.

[@thos1618]

Yep. The next era will be 'Submission Grappling', but gyms will still keep the 'BJJ' moniker for marketing value.

[@coldworld5]

And yet no catch wrestlers enter or get anywhere in NoGi comps ,yet all catch wrestlers constantly profess it’s greatness.

[@lewisb85]

@@coldworld5 Mark Robinson won the ADCC.

[@thos1618]

@@lewisb85 And he came up through Catch Wrestling?

[@slademassie6305]

I feel like catch wrestling is victim to the "Local ginger is not spicy" proverb. I can completely relate to this video. Growing up, my immigrant dad taught me Savate. But to me, since it was taught by my dad and not something in a Gi, it was some how less effective. Years after his death and trying to find a Savate school in the USA but not able to (sure you have the odd JKD school or kickboxing school that says Savate on the sign but they don't even spar with boots on), I realized he gave me a legacy that is also dying out. Looking at high level fighters from Savate and seeing how they are lightyears ahead of most kickboxers today, I can only now, see what was given to me. Sadly like you I'm old now and not in a position to save the art (not that I would have listened in my youth to save it). I did also reach out to other Savatures but most of them spend their time gatekeeping rather than expanding, which seems to be a common problem in Catch Wrestling as well.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, exactly!

[@mariorodriguezjunior]

I loved Savate in my adolescence, but switched to Muay Thai in my 20's because I followed the crowd, I wish I hadn't dropped it, it was invaluable, when I looked into returning, the lone school in my hometown had closed, regret it to this day. It's a beautiful and effective art.

[@abrahemsamander3967]

Slade Massie. That’s so cool. I personally think everyone should preserve their heritages fighting art. Even if there’s no perfect art. I hope to learn some Arabian and Highlander styles. If you have kids or ever want too, maybe you can teach them some savate.

[@great4061]

any examples of high level savate just asking for the sake of film study

[@slademassie6305]

@@Specialistkay If that statement was even remotely true then TaeKwonDo would have the deadliest fighters on the planet since it is the most popular martial art by far and the Gracie's would have lost every match, since they brought BJJ from an unknown art to dominating the MMA world in the mid 90s. But none of that is true because being popular doesn't make you effective and being unpopular doesn't make ineffective. Number of practitioners has zero effect on the quality of an art. Remember this next time you go to a limited reservation only Stake House vs going to franchise steak house. You tell which one had the better steak.

[@davevandevenne8891]

I think you are right. Volume is also a factor. There are 3 BJJ places within a 30 minute drive of my home, but I have no idea where the nearest catch wrestlers hang out. Over time the number of BJJ instructors will keep growing.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, there is a critical mass, and BJJ has it, while Catch doesn't

[@sanderson9338]

Absolutely agree I got to train with Eric Paulson at our BJJ school but otherwise I couldn't locate a catch school anywhere near me.

[@TheRasengan300]

@@sanderson9338 Eric doesn't even teach catch so much as CSW, catch-bjj-shooto hybrid. Many so called catch schools teach some very mixed hybrid system of grappling or what is essentially sub grappling with some catch subs. Traditional catch wrestling was more akin to wrestling with a very particular flavour of subs as opposed to submission grappling. This was especially true in the past but really Billy Robinson, the snake pit and similar people are the closest to historical catch.

[@sanderson9338]

@@TheRasengan300 Eric was the closest I have got in real life there are no Catch Schools near me.

[@TheRasengan300]

@@sanderson9338 Fair enough. Its not a criticism, Eric is excellent. But like a lot of hybrids things are gained and lost in the mixture and it's hard to combine catch and bjj and teach the bjj elements as well as a bjj school and the catch elements as well as a catch school, if you can find one that's legit to a high standard (which is not common). Hell even if one thinks the hybrid is more well rounded and adaptable than its parent arts and would win against one of them in a no rules bout if you have a "pure" practitioner of one against a "pure" CSW fighter, there is still a role for those less mixed specialised arts and value in learning from the source if you have a CSW base or value in choosing to combine bjj/catch through practicing each individually and maybe even creating your own more seamless blend of the two that differs from Eric's. I think the thing about csw is that it's not only a hybrid but has had some issues with keeping certain elements of the catch stuff more in focus compared to where they could still feasibly be in terms of focus. I've also heard that there are some issues with the licensing and spreading of csw, with some gyms able to adopt the brand and become an affiliate without the ideal level of experience and certification in the art, for a price of course. Don't know if that's true of course and I really like Eric so will give him the benefit of the doubt. If you are learning from Eric himself and getting some one on one time with him yourself at the hq rather than the average csw school that could help alleviate some of these problems with the focus on the traditional catch elements not purely because of Eric, as the founder of csw, having more direct catch experience than those who have only learned the content through csw (this doesn't guarantee he'd necessarily bother to be any different) but because he seems to be an exceptionally open and creative teacher willing to throw other stuff in. Still this doesn't alleviate the issues most if not all catch hybrids have, especially on the modern landscape, be they SAW (largely Japanese catch plus Sambo plus judo) , CSW (largely Catch/Shooto plus Bjj and MMA sub grappling with clinch strikes), Hayastan (catch plus judo and Sambo) or Luta Livre (Judo plus catch in its original form but now also very strongly bjj influenced). Hell a lot of what is billed as pure catch that is still legit is really just sub grappling with catch subs. Sure you probably aren't going to find a school which teaches catch in its older historical form simply because even modern "traditional Catch" is only traditional relative to what else is out there and has lost a lot of the wrestling acumen it once had and has absorbed more subs from other arts and thus pure only in the relative sense but if you train more traditional catch over sub wresting with some catch subs thrown or a more full on hybrid like csw you will get a larger focus on the "catch" material than elsewhere. Whether this makes for a better grappling system or not however is subjective. Still I've ranted for way too long and it's good you got to learn form Eric.

[@thedogrunner]

The games have become so increasingly interchangeable we just refer to all the wrestling and grappling arts as submission wrestling, at least with beginners, in my schools system. I'm not sure knowledge of origin would be more important for them than efficient categorization. Great content.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I suspect you're right, and thank you!

[@thedogrunner]

@Volt Tackle ⚡️ Sure, but at what level does that become important? In a "traditional" class I believe immediately. But for the non traditionalists? Probably after a few years and a few skill sets worth investigating is my opinion.

[@MP-db9sw]

In my corner of the world we call it grappling or submission grappling.

[@minhducnguyen9276]

@@thedogrunnerStill, People should learn to understand the contexts of how the traditional arts were developed so they can have a better understanding of what direction should they move, what they should keep and what they don't need to.

[@thedogrunner]

@@minhducnguyen9276 Could you offer an example?

[@MichaelJenkins910]

I think the central issue is that all things evolve, and earlier or transitional forms are often lost in that evolution. I sincerely hope that we can do both in this case--continue to advance the art and science of grappling while preserving systems like catch wrestling as they are now.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I suspect there will always be people willing to experiment with Catch rulesets, but in reality most of them will by hybrid grapplers. Does that mean Catch is gone? I genuinely don't know. But I suppose it's fair to say that the art of grappling will be better for having assimilated Catch...

[@syciuplyte8494]

hmm really good point there

[@bongdonkey]

@@EnglishMartialArts Excellent video. Do you teach Catch Wrestling? Cheers from Southern California

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@bongdonkey yeah, I have a small group of wrestlers who train out of Malin Martial Arts in the UK.

[@lordsneed9418]

I'm half english half scottish, I used to watch kung fu movies as a kid and a teenager, I've been watching clips of PRIDE and UFC and some boxing for maybe 5-7 years. But in all that time until a year or two ago I had NO idea that England used to be home of the best and most dominant wrestlers in the world and the most strong and dominant style and school of wrestling: Catch as Catch Can and the Snakepit . It seems like things have gone wrong at every turn for many decades. Wrestling SHOULD have been the number one martial art in the public consciousness. It's obvious that pure wrestlers can beat up pure boxers, and hundreds of wrestler vs boxer fights in the early and mid 20th century show this. Yet somehow the public was always much more interested in boxing. Why? if you're interested in who is the greatest fighter in the world then surely you want to see who is actually the greatest fighter, which was always wrestlers. Yet still wrestlers took distant second place to boxing in terms of public interest. When I was a kid growing up, I didn't even think wrestling was a martial art. I thought it was guys doing pre-choreographed moves ("fake") , and at the olympics I saw them just hug a bit and lie flat on the ground and it didn;t look like fighting. So to begin with I think wrestling in general has had an image or PR problem , especially in the UK (in the USA more people know what real wrestling is because at least it's a common sport in highschools. in the UK highschools doing wrestling is basically unheard of) So already wrestling had an undeserved PR disadvantage compared to boxing and striking , when really it should have been thought of as the best because it's clearly more effective . But then wrestling suffered another big PR loss when the gracies won the UFC and made bjj seem like something never-seen-before and better than anything else , because the gracies were smart not to invite any great luta livre or submission wrestling or catch wrestling pros to the UFC And once BJJ gets a big boost in practicioners schools it just feeds into itself and grows more and more. catch has unfortunately been sorely neglected, and the small number of big victories that catch wrestlers have had like sakuraba over the gracies or barnett over dean lister weren't successfully seized on in the moment to promote a catch organisation. I think if more British, especially English people knew that our country has this incredible heritage of being the greatest country for grappling in the world , that in the early 20th century and late 1800s Brits were travelling to japan and eating japanese judoka and jiu jitsu practioners for breakfast, then there would be more interest and catch could grow and gain market share and start getting more and more victories at grappling comps like ADCC once it has more practicioners. But it needs the British Government to promote our heritage and culture. The UK should pay josh barnett and the other most knowledgable (not necessarily most successful or competitive, but the ones with the most expansive , deep knowledge who would be the best teachers) to open a school and train a generation of teachers full of catch knowledge to open schools. Also, you're right that wrestling is more physically demanding than jiu jitsu, at least as it is taught to beginners. When you learn ji jitsu you start on the ground, less impact, less strenuous, less explosivity needed (especially with gi). a not-that-athletic 30 or 40 year old could start learning jiu jitsu more easily than wrestling. part of that is just because stand-up grappling is a lot more physically demanding and more likely to cause injury than when you're on the gournd. it would be the same for starting judo as a 30 or 40 year old. However all martial arts requires smart training and thinking about longevity, especially grappling. bjj practioners bust themselves up from decades of practice and competing just like wrestlers do, so I don't think it's a necessary problem to catch wrestling. The style of training and practicing catch wrestling could learn from the more friendly and modern ways of running a martial arts gym, while keeping catch wrestling in tact. It's the traditional techniques of catch wrestling that make it up . I don't think you need to sparr at 90% or 100% every session in order to teach or learn catch wrestling. As for the fact that bjj is more like an eastern martial art and so seems cooler because the imagery reminds you of kung fu... I don't know about that. Nowadays a lot of the magic of eastern martial arts from earlier decades has worn off because everyone realises kung fu doesn't work and that it's only boxing, kick boxing, wrestling and bjj that are successful in mixed martial arts. Boxing is still much bigger than catch wrestling despite being totally western anyway I don't know whether catch wrestling has more practicioners or fewer than a couple of decades ago. The growth of grappling in general through bjj growing could lead to more interest in traditional european wrestling. But it's important that the voluminous knowledge of the greats like billy robinson is preserved and not lost .

[@EnglishMartialArts]

So many interesting points. A lot to think about!

[@anastasiossioulas83]

I like folk wrestling styles a lot. Bringing them in the school system with a qualified instructor it would be good.

[@DADRB0B55]

Modern boxing was meant to replace dueling culture, that’s why is old sandbar fights they didn’t allow kicks or grappling, biting etc. BJJ nor Muay Thai/Karate didn’t exist here yet so it wasn’t really technical when you saw wrestling (also kicking but I know you grapplers think your are above that). So what was as close as fair duel as two people with flintlocks ? 2 dudes bare knuckle only throwing hands with some clinching or what’s now labeled as “dirty boxing” seeing one guy hold or slam other guy on the ground isn’t much of a duel and barely a fight it’s just assault. As this modern boxing developed, it had more rules added as time went on until the Queensbury standard came.

[@relativisticvel]

@@DADRB0B55 naw dude, look up the American fighting style known as “rough and tumble”

[@morpheus3128]

Don't kid yourself mate. The Gracies destroyed them all including guys who did Catch. Not only did the Gracies decimate them, but their blue belts were killing them with ease. If there was another style that was even close to Gracie Jiu Jitsu then it would be a household word around the world.

[@natinhodagoat]

I grew up watching Pro wrestling and of course wrestling with my siblings was an everyday thing. As I grew older I purchased a book from Ken Shamrock- Beyond the Lion's Den and in the back of the book was Ken's Lion's Den system. I studied alot and when I began my jiu-jitsu journey I shocked a few people and angered others lol. All in all grappling is grappling. We can't close our minds to knowledge. In the words of JCVD "don't limit yourself to one style". Cheers

[@capicornboss]

I've been training jiu jitsu for 14 years and over the years I've seen more and more catch wrestling techniques creeping their way into bjj and I love it!! Hell now that No Gi is getting more popular I'm see those techniques even more making their way in! I think it's great and I really like our perspective on this!! Awesome video!! Oss 🤙🏿

[@perryBJJ]

I enjoy your videos! As alluded to, drawing meaningful lines between no-gi BJJ, Catch, Luta Livre, 10th planet jiu jitsu and submission wrestling is getting almost impossible. The best stuff spreads everywhere.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you!

[@mysty0]

Please dont give up on Catch.. I will cry.. as somebody who grew up in Australia where Catch was never really a thing but had the privilege of having some old men teach me a few moves that helped me growing up as a teen in a violent place, I have always wanted to travel to learn Catch Wrestling but finances have never allowed. I am old now and done, but have a son I would love to learn Catch.. for now he does BJJ but I have emphasized to him the importance of explosiveness that BJJ simply lacks

[@caviteboy304]

Subbed. Great video, I like your presentation style and I love the English Martial Arts theme of the channel.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thanks for the sub, welcome to the Fight team!

[@pvlapa]

As an MMA guy who has crosstrained on countless of gyms, I can say personally that catch has the biggest influence on my ground game. The biggest issue though, is it is also the most injury prone grappling there is so I stopped. I only watch vids now. But it is very effective as long as you're caught up with the current meta of leglocks (courtesy of Danaher). Not a lot of grapplers exploit riding and toe holds.

[@0n344]

Toe holds from the top of guard / half while the opponents hands are busy covering up from your ground n pound ;)

[@SoftewareDeveloper]

What are some good instructional stories learn catch from?

[@Thor-Orion]

So funny, the entire time Ortega was focusing on Volk’s neck I was screaming “pick a leg lock!”

[@veandreyahuda5333]

Does catch teach you takedowns that freestyle wrestlers use?

[@Thor-Orion]

@@veandreyahuda5333 To my knowledge Catch uses a lot of single leg takedowns to transition into submission holds very quickly.

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

Only reason I first heard "catch-as-catch-can" was a documentary on the history of professional wrestling, bit you are the one who clarified id to me. Thank you, and thank Billy Robinson.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Keeping the grovvit alive!

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

@@EnglishMartialArts FIGHT TEAM!

[@sethb6383]

RIP Billy ❤

[@CJ-uf6xl]

I agree with you, I started catch or wrestling as a young man, taught by my uncle Bob (who wasn't really my uncle...) and my Dad, we also trained boxing, then I discovered Judo and kickboxing and my whole understanding of martial arts changed, basically it's a very different world that is much more geared towards keeping you coming back. It honestly saddened me to see catch turned into BJJ's ugly older cousin that nobody really wants to hang out with. I do hope that catch will have another hay day. (I remember making a similar statement on one of your older video's, and getting told of for it lol, glad you're on the same page 👍)

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Was it me that told you off? Sorry if so, you were obviously right!

[@levitheleviathan2792]

For me what really sucks is like something like folkstyle wrestling is an amazing experience in high-school and college but once it’s over there’s not the same hold that there is for jujutsu. And the thought processes are just so different. Jujutsu is always “technique” will overcome all. But wrestling felt a lot more like “I’m gonna take away your dream or your gonna take away mine” which sucks because jujutsus is arguably a more complete martial art from a combat stand point but lacks a lot of the initial brutality that learning to properly fight needs

[@simoneriksson8329]

I belive that the martial arts world (and especially combat sports) are slowly but steadily moving towards talking about grappling and striking skills in general rather than specific styles. So I think you might be right about Catch Wrestling being " doomed" but perhaps the same is true for BJJ, Judo etc... Perhaps a decade from now they will all be so mixed it is just considered grappling. #fightteam

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That's a really interesting perspective. I think BJJ is widespread enough that it will survive, but whether it looks the same in the future I have no idea.

[@pahwraith]

In no-gi maybe. Bjj will live on in the gi. But anyway i train the midwest. Everyone in my school was a folkstyle wrestler first, including our black belts. So even in the gi, theres a strong emphasis on folkstyle top control and pressure. We train everyone to be able to initiate a single leg and a double leg at the minimum. I think this is pretty common around schools in the heart of wrestling country in the usa. Its developing into a hybrid system.

[@LifeAndDef]

@@EnglishMartialArts and I think Judo will too, one of the biggest sports in the world.

[@Moses_VII]

@@LifeAndDef Judo is good for learning to break falls

[@MP-db9sw]

This is how I see it. In the meantime, if “your” style isnt winning in any of the major competitions then you have no business labelling the styles that are beating you as inferior.

[@fenrir2616]

When you said you were gonna wrap this video up, I checked to see how long was left! Really, really enjoyed this video, could have listened for over an hour about this topic.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Lol, yeah turns out I lied... 😁

[@aaronadkins9902]

I started off grappling with a catch wrestler when I was 14/15, but unfortunately after about a year and a half he stopped teaching due to injuries and lack of interest at the mma gym I was at. Moved away from that town and continued to train bjj/mma shortly after. Since I was quite frankly too young and too unathletic to learn the catch techniques properly, I’ve tried to keep the mindset and the style of high pressure that catch wrestling has and it’s really helped me a lot with both bjj and mma.

[@veandreyahuda5333]

Did catch teach you takedowns?

[@aaronadkins9902]

Yeah it taught me loads, a lot of the basics cuz that’s what works but also a few that I still can’t hit 5 years later 😅

[@Stu939]

There are three or four elements at play for me when it comes to those catch people I have trained with. First, you touched on the lack of a grading system to give it mystique, but that also makes it harder for outsiders without significant grappling experience to identify good from bad practitioners. Secondly, many of the catch people I have learned from (Chris Crosnan, Iain Thornton, Owen Livesey) have also been bjj guys or judo guys, blurring the lines. Third, the hardness of it is also accompanied by a macho culture that almost fetishises that hardness to the exclusion of hobbyists. Finally, in the only 'pure' catch school I have been in, there was a focus on the historical preservation of the art almost regardless of effectiveness, with the result that I was taught at least one less than efficient leg lock simply because that's the way it is done there.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

All very good points.

[@thos1618]

NoGi BJJ is filling the niche of macho culture in grappling. Go subscribe the the B-Team channel for an example. The "david vs goliath", "I'm not using strength just technique", "this was designed for the smaller man", "other martial arts don't use leverage" lies are finally starting to dissipate and we're getting back to a much more pure, much less bullshit grappling style.

[@whizard84]

I love the fact that there is no grading system but instead they should use competitions as grading to do the weeding out

[@Supernaught00]

Thank you for taking the time to make this video, I hadn't heard of catch wrestling until now.

[@pro8ord]

Such great insights! First time watching your content and I was immediately intrigued. I would say that while doomed, catch wrestling is still being preserved through the assimilation of its techniques and even its ethos. You can see it in modern BJJ where athletes are getting as big and as strong as humanly (or inhumanly, if we're being honest) possible as a way to get an edge over a technically equivalent or superior opponent. The whole "stronger is better" mindset seems to be a clear influence of catch and other forms of wrestling.

[@brojitsu]

I agree with you 100 percent. Especially in America, where Folk Style, Free Style, and Greco are so popular. Wrestling has been working it's way into BJJ for years. But even Maeda cross trained in Britain and the US with Catch, before he brought Judo to Brazil. Coming from wrestling, I noticed relatively early on that sometimes my jiu-jitsu game resembled catch wrestling, even though having never trained it. I think grappling is already such a hybrid that it will all evolve into submission style or point style. Great points.

[@sukotsutoCSSR]

I love catch more than any other grappling, but it's as you've said: it doesn't lend well to training around normal people, so you don't get to have more opportunities to train the way you want. In the 19th century, a lot of deadly Jujutsu schools prior to Judo each have great technique or two in their arsenal, but Judo won in the end because it's the only one that allows people to train their techniques regularly and systematically without injury or pain. So a lot of those Jujutsu schools integrated themselves into Judo. I feel this is what's happening to Catch.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, exactly!

[@phil245]

More catch specific competitions could help. Also, lie in your marketing. I was always told by bjj dudes that strength doesn't matter, it's all about leverage. It became apparent pretty quickly that they're full of it when they say that - it works for someone who is just miles ahead of his opponent in terms of skill, but that's also the case for every other martial art

[@AbsoluteStorm]

I think a key part of it is that BJJ is more palatable to a wider audience than Catch. Some people don't want to be puking due to an extreme warm-up, nor endlessly suffering pain that isn't part of a proper submission. Most women and older men won't want to train with men who will smash and slam them etc.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Absolutely. I agree wholeheartedly that the very things that make high quality Catch so effective are the same things that drive people away from learning it. I'm still blaming BJJ though 😂

[@wanabisufi8843]

Many bjj guys at high levels can still fight as old men, but many former catch old men can barely even walk. I've met a few.

[@brazenmmabrazilianjiu-jits8488]

We were in the catch world for many years. We trained under Coach Billy Robinson right up until he passed. Cool to see you used the clip of Sam throwing Ricky on those blue mats. That was in Utah back in 2014 I believe....we were there for that training. We have now spent the last 14 years with who I think is the last of the real catch wrestlers...Sensei Erik Paulson. My real only problem with catch is that it can't get out of it's own way.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That throw is a real thing of beauty. It always surprises me that so few people know of Sam.

[@0n344]

Can you elaborate on the "can't get out of its own way"?

[@brazenmmabrazilianjiu-jits8488]

@@EnglishMartialArts Sam and Ricky are great! On top of being a great Catch Wrestler, Sam is also a BJJ black belt under Chris Haueter. It might be better now...but a few years ago when I left all the Catch Facebook groups it was nonstop arguing about who is pure, who is the best, bjj sucks.....if i was on the bottom I would just get up....just too much nonsense. Coach Billy just wanted to teach Catch and prove it was the best.

[@IrishScouseViking]

Thank you for this video, mate respect from Liverpool, NE

[@jasonpoilovs4903]

I practice BJJ but I’m fascinated by catch. I try to incorporate as much of it into my Jiu Jitsu as I can. Great video, thanks

[@CJLloyd]

As someone who had never heard of catch wrestling before you mentioned it on this channel, I'd be interested in see you breakdown what exactly it is. If possible, fight breakdowns, like you do with other fight video reactions, but with actually good catch wrestlers. After all, the art doesn't have to dominate the market, it just has to survive. And you are personally in a good position to help it do that. EDIT: well shoot, I just looked, and you've done just that. I'll go watch it now. But yes, more if that! 😊😂

[@EnglishMartialArts]

There's a second round to that fight that I need to do.

[@Zwerchhau]

Metamoris IV, Josh Barnett vs. Dean Lister, is probably the most notable Catch Vs. BJJ modern match up with a Catch victory.

[@357SWAGNUM_MAGA_X]

I heard It's a rougher version of Jiu-Jitsu

[@Zwerchhau]

@@357SWAGNUM_MAGA_X It's not Jujitsu, it originated in Britain.

[@dvldgz6306]

Catch wrestling was the first grappling art I did. I did it as a teenager and noticed it's not very popular. I've moved since then and have to do BJJ to get my grappling in but I really want to get better at catch wrestling and become a coach for it and try to keep it going at least for another generation

[@veandreyahuda5333]

Does catch teach takedowns that folk style and freestyle wrestlers use?

[@dvldgz6306]

@@veandreyahuda5333 yes. Folk/free style use to be called amateur catch wrestling. Folk/free style is catch without submissions. You can win in catch by pin or submission

[@veandreyahuda5333]

@@dvldgz6306 okay because I’m 21 I played basketball in high school instead of wrestling and plan on going mma in 5 6 years but trying to make my base wrestling but there aren’t any adult wrestling gyms in my city only Bjj but there is a catch wrestling so I was just wondering

[@dvldgz6306]

@@veandreyahuda5333 hell yeah man. Give it a shot and you can always transition to BJJ later. There's also fanatic wrestling owned by the company BJJ fanatics. They make online instructional for BJJ (BJJ fanatics), wrestling (wrestling fanatic), a Judo ( judo fanatic), and boxing and kickboxing (dynamic striking). They have daily deals and it may be worth looking into if you can find a training partner in your gym.

[@Maodifi]

Good points! What got me to finally train in BJJ was the fact that my coach offers No-Gi classes and he has a strong wrestling background. So despite the fact that we train BJJ, we also train wrestling fundamentals from someone with credentials. Idk about Gi BJJ, but No-Gi doesn’t seem to just be taking wrestling moves…it seems to also be assimilating wrestlers as well.

[@grapplingwithphysiopodcast3339]

Great video. I did Chris Crossans CACC seminar about 8 years ago and thought it was amazing and my coach teaches some elements of catch, but in all honesty like what MMA did to fighting, no gi grappling seems to be doing the same with Judo, sambo, CACC, BJJ. etc. My 2 pence anyway🤷🏻‍♂️. Great video 👍

[@jeraldmcclain2656]

This time I actually watched the whole video. Late 2021, I started Brazilian Jiujitsu as a Karate black belt with some Taekwondo and Mixed Martial Arts experience and left that school because of what you said about lower belts not being allowed to use "ankle" or "leg locks" which is precisely what I used to tap a Blue Belt (as I was a white belt). Ever since I saw Kazushi Sakuraba defeat Royce Gracie and his brothers over 20 years ago, I always said "Catch Wrestling is better than BJJ" which PISSES those guys off but I digress. You hit some good points when you spoke of how "Cool" that Brazilian Jujitsu appears to the "unaniciated." You are absolutely right about that part. However, I don't like belt styles because I've been through it once from white to black belt (karate) and absolutely regret it because it wasn't what I expected. Put it like this, when I was a Sho-Dan back in 2003, a BJJ white belt could've kicked my ass and I wouldn't been able to do a damn thing to stop it, which negates the point of being a black belt in the first place but I digress. Even though I'm in my early to mid 40s (athletic build), if I went back to active training, I'd choose Kickboxing and Catch Wrestling over belt styles. I don't think CW is doomed. BJJ just has a slightly better marketing tactic.

[@graciederangementsyndrome3669]

Catch wrestling isn't better than BJJ. If anything it's the other way around. It's irrational to conclude CW is better on the account of just one individual while ignoring the rest. If CW was better, then whatever happened to the rest of the Japanese prowrestlers around that time? They lost to BJJ more than they won. Rickson was already beating Japanese prowrestlers before Sakuraba rose to mma. Sakuraba used mostly his freestyle wrestling to sprawl and his muay thai kicks to outstrike the Gracies. He used very little CACC in his fights against the Gracies. You're not gonna find CW schools because they were either non-existent as martial art schools or they were teaching prowrestling. BJJ has better marketing because it's actually good for fighting. It's not some fake kung fu pysop like youre trying to imply. If CACC was objectively better, then it would be promoting itself in sub grappling tournaments dominating BJJ and being a better alternative to BJJ's ground fighting in mma today.

[@JamesMMcCann]

Meada added a lot of Catch to his Judo, which he then taught to someone who then taught Carlos Gracie (despite the narrative Maeda didn't teach Carlos), so the Gracie's had Catch in there from the start, the problem was that Helio's influence made them get rid of a lot of 'strength' techniques, which were primarily Catch techniques. Good channel.

[@paulosilveira4326]

Every word what you typed are lies...how can anyone Can you get 100% of something wrong? 😮

[@Gimpthulhu]

I stumbled upon this video and enjoyed it. I'll be sure to check out your other stuff. 🙂 Sidenote: It's implied that you're referring to Jiu-Jitsu as a grappling art, and you referred to the stand up game of catch wrestling and the throws of judo. That being said, I find it ironically amusing that at the 1:53 mark you show a picture from the Valente Brothers school. They focus on a more traditional Jiu-Jitsu (before the bjj sportification) that includes stand-up with strikes and throws (as well as ground grappling).😁

[@jasonfong7517]

One of my friends who grew up doing catch told me that in America in the 90s, catch was everywhere and it was really hard to find bjj. Now that’s totally flipped; crazy to think.

[@Warp_Speed_Hippo]

My personal view of Catch is that its highest value is in showing someone what BJJ is not. Just speaking from my own perspective, not making any objective claims about the styles. I love both. I’m a BJJ guy first and foremost. But I do love both and consider myself part of both worlds. Comparing and contrasting to find all the ways they’re different, all the ways they’re the same, how you can mix them together to gain a little advantage and give someone something they don’t see coming… I love it. I want Catch to live forever because it makes BJJ better. I feel like if we all just keep reading, talking, training/with and competing against each other neither art is going anywhere.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I agree the two work together nicely. I like the fact that I have the choice of differing approaches depending on what I want to do or how I want to play the game that time. I love that BJJ has improved my Catch and vice versa.

[@heatto162]

I wrestled from 1st grade all through highschool, I was pretty good, placed at states a few times. Our practices were absolutely grueling. Our wrestling room was never below 90°f. and our conditioning coach wasn't satisfied unless somebody threw up when we were running wind sprints. The amount of dedication needed to compete at a high level is extreme. One of my buddies invited me to roll around at the bjj gym he went to. It was way different. The whole place seemed out to get me because they knew I wrestled. They were definitely going all out,But nobody wanted to start from standing. So I started throwing legs in, and maybe a little of that intentional pain infliction. Normal for the wrestling room, but evidently not here. I didn't have a good time. Nobody really wanted to show me anything. And they didn't want to learn from me. It was more like let's see if we can tap out the wrestler. I never went back.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Sadly I suspect similar things have happened to many people who could have done very well in grappling.

[@ConveyApp]

My BJJ is an MMA gym first. My 3 professors are primarily no gi practitioners. The owner of our gym has been training BJJ from 1998 and as he says seriously from 2005, when he opened his gym. They are all awesome BJJ black belts. Now the owner has trained in all kinds of grappling styles. Today we utilized a catch wrestling technique to help getting out of half guard to back or hip ride. These no gi old school techniques are very helpful in the tool kit.

[@nagyzoli]

@EnglishMartialArts Can you please enlighten me what is the difference between greco roman, free style and catch wrestling. In Romania where I live only greco-roman and freestyle are present. Is freestyle the same as catch wrestling?

[@jimofthenorth8090]

Aside from the all too common issue of the simple lack of catch gyms for people to train at, I think you hut the nail on the head with your points about 'how' each is taught. As a complete beginner you can go to any half decent BJJ gym and have fun. People will go easy on you, they WANT you to enjoy it and join the family. Whereas catches reliance on hurting your opponent is much harder for a complete beginner to get their heads around.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes. absolutely. People try it because they like the idea, but most don't stick with it because it bloody hurts!

[@fighting.words.ma.library]

Hi. Always enjoy your videos. I think there might be a "middle path". Catch is largely taught, from my observation, as something meant to be used competitively, or with a competitive mindset. "Win at all cost" will lead to a reliance on physical attributes (which are great to have and develop, but not a focus for casual practitioners) as well as the "pain" stuff. BJJ schools will set apart time for competition team training, or the competitive guys will roll together, but that type of intensity isn't expected of everyone. And there's certainly a benefit to perfecting the mechanics of a technique. Teach Catch like BJJ is taught, and not like an outlaw wrestling room. Sure, there will still be a higher reliance on conditioning, because stand-up work and a no-gi environment lend themselves to that, but except for the competition-minded guys, there won't be this feeling like you're in a fight for survival every night, which motivates some folks but will turn off a lot of the rest. Then, in countries that have a strong wrestling culture, one can attract former amateur wrestlers to the "pin + submission" style of competitions and still have a strong competitive wrestling presence. Or make a really awesome movie about Catch. "The Karate Kid" led to more karate schools, "Only The Strong" introduced a wide audience to Capoeira, and I'm sure Wing Chun school enrolment shot up with the Ip Man movies.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I know of one school in the UK that teaches Catch for fun. It is surprisingly popular.

[@rippersubmissionwrestling2704]

@@EnglishMartialArts Where's that??

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@rippersubmissionwrestling2704 It's a HEMA club in York. York School of Defence. Lovely people, no ego, no posturing, just enjoyable training.

[@YorkSchoolofDefence]

​@@EnglishMartialArts Thanks for the shout-out. The catch classes are doing better than ever, we're currently full with a waiting list and really need a bigger venue to rent of an evening and more mats. "No macho bullshit" has always been the mantra and it works, a lot of people (myself included) are put off by the egos and swagger and posturing. A lot of folks in catch don't seem to realise that it's okay to do the thing just for the joy of doing the thing, and that while you have people who will live and breathe it you also have people who just want to do a session or two a week, roll around with their friends, learn a few things and go home and get on with their lives without having to become a jacked dudebro knocking back protein shakes left, right and centre. Making some sweeping generalisations here but the bad side of the catch community sometimes reminds me of the various extreme metal fandoms; they tell everyone how amazing and cool it is then set the bar for entry so ludicrously high and actively try to dissuade people so they can keep it trve and kvlt and make sure it's a little niche only they know about.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@YorkSchoolofDefence spot on my friend!

[@kellyhoffmann1]

Your point is very well made. For better or worse, I believe the same for much of the human experience. For what it’s worth, the techniques of Catch will teach people how to defend themselves regardless of the label-that’s something. Wishing you the best, brother.

[@rafaelbabar3494]

Please could you do a video on the best Calisthenics routine for catch wrestling. Thanks.

[@johnflais3776]

I should point out that assimilation works both ways - for example, it is unclear how much of catch wrestling's takedown game comes from the amateur styles. I haven't seen a single "catch" takedown that wasn't taught in amateur wrestling at the time the footage was taken, so it is quite tricky to claim who copied whom. This bond was certainly reinforced by a number of catch wrestlers - Georg Hackenschmitt, Karl Gotch, Wade Schalles - having strong amateur wrestling backgrounds. My personal opionion on the matter is that catch should advertise more to the amateur wrestling crowd, who may feel more at home in that system than in BJJ based on the ruleset. My impression is also that currently, the competitive level of catch isn't where it could be, and I haven't seen anyone who I'd consider a takedown artist in catch recently (nor in BJJ for that matter). Bringing in more guys from Freestyle, Folkstyle and Greco might help with that.

[@rgrapplerinoc2617]

Extremely difficult subject, but you did a fantastic job discussing it. Coming from over 30 years of training, having experienced both catch wrestling and BJJ, both are excellent styles and both are "Real World " usable. I agree that it's sad that catch is probably going out into the shadows but hopefully will not completely fade. It could make a turn if coaches and practitioners made an effort to change the culture and stigma of it.

[@declangrey1185]

Great video partner and I do “BJJ” and i absolutely love the practice but I have a few issues with it which has resulted in me always saying I do submission grappling even tho I train In gi too. Catch may not be as big as BJJ but at least it’s authentic In it’s roots, it was created for tough guys, in tough places during tough times and it doesn’t pretend to be something it’s not or deny what it is at heart. With BJJ the main thing that made it grow so massive is the main thing I have issue with and it’s the fact people believe all the lies about its origins and treat it like it’s a sacred martial art. The Gracie’s learned Japanese jujitsu/Judo didn’t invent or evolve anything just renamed the techniques and changed the focus essentially removed all the effective judo takedowns, removed leg locks and marketed the shit out of it cos they were rich and everyone bought into it like you can’t go anywhere without seeing at least one BJJ school my towns small and had 4 at a stage… The culture is literally just Judo mashed with California surfer culture. Plus the propaganda of the elder Gracie’s especially Helio being peaceful, feeble, weak people that just loved technique and wanted to spread BJJ meanwhile they were getting arrested for attacking people 3v1 with Iron bars for winning matches against them; cheating, threatening and assaulting people. Plus it pisses me off to no end how the top competitors will preach all this nonsense about respect, honour, and how BJJ is the best martial art not needing strength etc etc meanwhile being juiced off their mind on steroids… The only person that actually evolved BJJ past what was already in JJJ/Judo and done something unique was Eddie Bravo removing the gi and with his rubber guard systems etc and he got shunned for years for it. Craig Jones hit the nail on the head fake inventing Mexican ground karate cos that’s essentially what the Gracie’s did me personally I do Irish submission Sumo.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Spot on. I love Mexican Ground Karate!

[@thos1618]

Agree 100%. I was into Catch at a young age and wanted to grapple like Sakuraba, but joined BJJ gyms because they were available and the people were legit. A lot more competitive and a less charlatanism than in the Catch community as well. The best solution is to join the breakout success of NoGi 'Submission Grappling' and carry the useful aspects of Catch over. Trying to preserve a martial art for historical reasons leads to stale training, larping and a lack of competitiveness.

[@jasonjean2901]

My BJJ instructor, who recently got his black belt under Master Lima, is an odd-ball practitioner who could only have made his black belt journey in the manner he did recently. He is almost entirely self-taught through videos. He has a lot of bouncer experience, played university-level football in the U.S., been in countless streetfights, and has always done his best to incorporate BJJ with Judo and Wrestling techniques. He comes off as the kind of catch-wrestler you describe in your videos, minus the lineage. It's interesting how, given the information available over the internet, a BJJ black belt can resemble a catch-wrestler so closely.

[@blackpalacemusic]

My instructor has a similar story, he has a catch wrestling background and basically bulldogged has way to Sambo and BJJ belts when there were seminars and workshops in my country.😂

[@mider9996]

So how do you think one should train to avoid serious injury. I saw someone say to train technique and have safe sparring partners, and not take unnecessary bumps.

[@guidomista8448]

I believe grappling has evolved where all grappling forms (bjj, catch wrestling, judo, Sambo, etc...) have started to mesh together borrowing techniques from each other. Grappling should just be grappling, you should learn all techniques and see which one works for your style, kinda like with muay thai and the different styles (muay Khao, muay mat, muay femur, muay ptae, and muay sok) where it's all muay thai, but a difference in there shot selection and how they train.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I agree there is a huge amount of cross pollination. I don't like it though!

[@guidomista8448]

@@EnglishMartialArts Once the stigma between martial arts fade, it will all just be grappling, the only things separating them is just certain rule sets and training methods. All the techniques will be interchangeable. Back to my muay thai analogy, muay Khao is a style that benefits taller people, since muay Khao is knee and clinch fighting, whereas muay femur is the technician, usually smaller, faster guys, both have amazing fighters from their respective styles, but in the end its all muay thai, which can also be grouped up into am even bigger group, striking. Same thing with catch and bjj, catch wrestling in my opinion just represents that go forward, pressure pass style, whereas bjj is like the muay femur, where I benefits smaller guys to use sneaky tricks from bottom positions to gain advantage. In the end, you should train all styles and see where your strengths and weaknesses are, and then go from there.

[@Gambitfan]

I feel for your concern; it's hardly a 1-to-1 comparison, but this reminds me of the difference between Japanese sports karate and its derivative "McDojo's" vs the old-school Okinawan karate schools and instructors that are slowly dying out. It's not just "hurr-durr original better," it's the difference between understanding the application of kata and the understanding of how important physical strength and endurance is to what you are doing. Lifting weights, grip-training, roadwork, stuff that leaves you, as you put it, "puking on the side." You look at the old Okinawan instructors and their hands and fingers are calloused and crooked from constantly striking hard surfaces, vs McDojo "senseis" who could get side-gigs as hand models. You read old karate books and it discusses sweeps, take downs, and holds, while you go to other places and, if your lucky, it will be a Karate/Jiujutsu mix school. And if those McDojo students suddenly want a more "practical" art? They go to Muay Thai, or Dutch kickboxing, or MMA. And why the hell wouldn't they, when their karate instructor taught them utter nonsense like "The Hikite (bringing your extended arm rapidly to your hip while you punch with the other hand in the same motion") INCREASES THE POWER OF YOUR PUNCH!" Where as if you actually read the old texts, the "Pull Hand" (as it translates too) is about pulling one of the opponent's limbs down to create an opportunity for an immediate strike. Now I bring all that to you to say...while bleak, it's not all lost with catch wrestling. Karate has several traditionalist and preservers - some of which are here on KZbin! - doing what they can to popularize and preserve the older ways. Karate Combat is attempting to make it a sport in its own right with its own unique rules, similar to what jiujutsu has done, and has brought on board GSP and Bas Rutten to give it that edge of legitimacy. Engagement, patience, and hard work have helped at least slow the bleeding, and I think that possibility exists in Catch, especially in England where you can tie it to cultural heritage, the same way boxing has done so. It won't be easy, and it may not work, but I don't think catch is doomed...unless no one does anything and they just quietly accept assimilation into Brazilian jiujutsu. TL;DR: It's not GOOD, but it's not DOOMED...yet. Also, more name dropping of Yoshiaki Fujiwara please; I remember watching his worked UWF matches and he is so good. :D

[@EnglishMartialArts]

You're obviously more of an optimist than I am! And yes Fujiwara rocks. Nothing makes me happier than pulling off a Fujiwara armbar in rolling. I have a personal rule that I have to shout FUJIWARA at the top of my voice when I manage it.

[@MrAlepedroza]

Old French Savate was similar in the sense it was also a complete stand-up finghting art with locks and takedowns besides clinch elements. Sadly, it was watered down as it became a sport due to internal divisions, since the purists would not allow pro fights until much later and many of the grapplimg elements were shed off.

[@user-ee6ng4bb9l]

I love catch as a online pursuer, but my problem and I suspect a lot of people in american is that there is nearly no catch or even standard wrestling classes offered in most of the country. Where as jiu jitsu is quite literally everywhere.

[@danpetrea]

I do bjj, but lately have been practicing only no-gi, to the point where I can say I train submission grappling and not jiu-jitsu. And as the no-gi segment is getting more and more popular (many schools train exclusively no-gi) and the submission only competitions are getting more and more attention, to the point where the IBJJF scoring system might become obsolete eventually (the scoring system has huge influence on the match development - guard pulling, and positioning) I think the wrestling meta will get even more attention and the two sports will merge into a single system preserving only the most effective techniques. Craig Jones has a great instructional about using wrestling pinning for leg control instead of the traditional systems that get rewarded with points in IBJJF competitions

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Ah yes, Mexican Ground Karate does a lot right!

[@pootytang2872]

his titles are lol. is it this one ? "Get Off My Legs Gringo by Craig Jones"

[@lewisb85]

Like you I live in the UK also train BJJ, but I have also discovered Luta Livre(where I live has a Brazilian martial arts centre that teaches BJJ, Capoeria and Luta Livre), personally I see catch surviving but I think it will have to integrate with the Luta Livre, you've also got 10th planet Jiu jitsu which has some roots in catch (eddie bravo is from the same machado lineage as erik paulson who is josh barnett's trainer, he trained catch with paulson).

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Josh learned from Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson before becoming part of Paulson's gym. In fact if you look at some of the early footage of Billy teaching you'll see Eric Paulson as a student alongside Josh.

[@lewisb85]

@@EnglishMartialArts Its funny when I explained to my old man what Luta Livre was he was well into it turns out he trained with former welsh rugby player turned pro wrestler (so was trained in catch) Don Vines back in the late 60s early 70s, so now showing me bits and pieces.

[@simonclayton5358]

good point luta livre looks a bit like nasty BJJ or pleasant CACC

[@lewisb85]

@@simonclayton5358 There was a few Brazilians back in the day that trained all three major national martial arts (BJJ,LL and capoeira), the most well known was marco ruas.

[@simonclayton5358]

@@lewisb85 Oh yes I have some old videos of Marco Ruas. Cripes he was gnarly good.

[@JamesSongCovers]

I've only been doing bjj for just under a year, but since I;ve started doing no-gi, I've found that I much prefer a lot of the catch wrestling moves like the cradle instead of side control or as you said, shooting doubles or singles instead of judo-style uchi matas etc. I think its defnitely improved my game in both gi and no-gi, in that I'm still trying to be technical with them but they also allow me to use and abuse my size and weight a bit. Definitely like the umbrella term of grappling and would say that I practice grappling instead of bjj. THe only thing I don't like about wrestling and catch wrestling is the pin, maybe since I started with bjj where being on your back with shoulders down is almost half the game. Personally I feel submission is the only way to actually determine a winner but again I'm just some dckhead online.

[@wanabisufi8843]

For me submission or ground and pound like combat Jui jitsu.

[@johnhodgeman3980]

The idea of the pin is the same as in judo. Control your opponent. Pin them into submission in essence. And like judo, the point of catch is to be explosive, get in and get out as quickly as possible. I'm not talking sport here. I'm talking real life consequences. If you cannot run, if you cannot escape, if you must fight, take your opponent down, maintain top control, and GnP or submit to incapacitate the person and escape or pin until the police arrives. Staying on bottom is not a good idea. In catch, because of the pin, wrestlers work to get back on top or stand up. That's why catch is the best base for MMA. You either submit, reverse, or stand up. Same principle in both when on bottom. The best players work to superior position and not hang around in bottom hunting for subs. If you can stand up, even better.

[@wanabisufi8843]

I don't doubt the power of catch, but sometimes, just sometimes you can't outwrestle your opponent, sometimes you end up in the bottom. You can either stop fighting, or keep fighitng. I agree a pin is very powerful, very easy to set up an escape, or if your a pure IBBJF jui jitsu guy, you can pin someone in their guard to pass to get points. Pinning is good. But pinning should never end the fight, because sometimes when you posture to do ground and pound or transition to a submission, you lose the pin and they escape. TO me a pin should not end a fight, but rather a collection of strikes or a submission, because then you proved you can use the pin to win, and not just momentarily hold. I like Judo and Sambo pinning to award points or win, because it's for a long time to hold it.

[@delgodzilla1977]

This is really interesting and some really good points. It makes sense to me that what we're ultimately evolving towards is grappling- an art which combines the previously separate grappling arts. Hopefully the BJJ marketing machine and mythos doesn't get in the way of that evolution including and recognising other arts.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Fingers crossed!

[@pootytang2872]

jake shannon says all grappling will meld

[@Ogami_Goro]

I think you're right about Catch. I only recently started learning about the history of Catch, and discovered I erroneously equated it with Greco-Roman and Freestyle. And as I learned more about some of the techniques, I realized that my BJJ coach regularly incorporates Catch moves into our classes. Catch moves that work are clearly becoming incorporated into BJJ, and BJJ has become the "catch-all" term for modern grappling. So in one way, you could say that Catch will live on inside of BJJ. But yes, losing the history and source of the original English style is a real shame, and I hope videos like yours may preserve it.

[@davidemelia6296]

Oh, you don't need to bait anyone into clicking on your videos 🤣

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Everyone loves a little gentle clickbait right?

[@mikuspalmis]

Clickbait and pretend reaction poses in thumbnails need to cease. Unless they are done jokingly (like Ramsey Dewey).

[@ironmandavecoward]

Enjoyable breakdown. You're right, it does get overlooked as there is a huge explosion of BJJ starters, this is also helped by the business formula of BJJ gyms. I'm a Judoka and it's a similar story, majority of new starters lean towards BJJ due to popularity in social media. Though Catch did also have a great advocate and practitioner in Kuzushi Sakuraba aka Gracie hunter, I think he did a lot for Catch in the long run.

[@vincentcrowley5196]

I have thought about learning wrestling but there's only mma , bjj gyms near me. I think there was a place in the next town but unsure if its still going.

[@blazejsroka4319]

I recently joined an MMA gym which has a main focus on No-Gi Bjj for MMA amateurs and Pros, but it also offers Muay Thai, Wrestling & Boxing. I really like that because wrestling will come in handy during competitions where you start standing, and need to know takedowns to score some early points. So it feels like Wrestling is a must know for anyone who wants to learn to grapple. However, I always wanted to know a bit of Judo, and then I discovered Sambo. It would be awesome to learn that instead since its a mixture of both. The only problem is the nearest Sambo club is over an hour away from where I live so wouldn't fit my work schedule...

[@TheEvolver311]

I think a big factor is that since the international growth of MMA and no-gi grappling, the tactics and in some parts the mindset of Catch Wrestling has been fostered into BJJ. Things like a lack of demand to stay on the mat in MMA and more narrow time frames in rounds to actually win with your submission abilities has demanded that BJJ experts simply have to say "F it just gonna go for this and try and finish"

[@Mr.5hady]

Yeah, but were can I train Catch? I live in Sweden but would like to visit a club anywere! 🙂

[@kcwliew]

So well argued, so articulate, so utterly British it made me smile - from beginning all the way to the end shout out. Would love to see you sometime on the mats and pick up some of that catch knowledge. You're right on every front - the lines are blurring. People sitting there arguing about whether catch is better than judo is better than BJJ, sambo etc... most likely don't train because they'll soon realise that grappling is fast becoming just one art form. BJJ guys (like me) know that our stand up needs improving. We know that our strength and conditioning sucks compared to wrestlers and believe it or not, we're working to plug those gaps because most of us just want to be well rounded grapplers. If you cross train, you soon realise the old adage that a martial art is only as good as its practitioner.

[@TearThatRedFlagDown]

Here's something you'd probably find interesting. I'm an Escrima practitioner and the style that I practice has taken some aspects and moves from catch wrestling and incorporated it into its system, even going so far as modifying certain moves so they can be used with a stick.

[@henwen6080]

Hi again maybe more appropriate to ask here - @EMA Do you know where I can find any good clubs to train Catch-Wrestling in the UK? I will look it up just wanted your opinion. I am guessing most would be in the north? I want to travel to the England and try to master Catch, I may even get a place there if I can afford it, I know it will take time. I am Irish but my dads family were originally a border reiver clan in Northumberland in old times, I never got into my English identity till I was older, I want to help keep my culture alive by mastering Catch, if its possible

[@henwen6080]

Damn looking up now its all but died out :( Snakepit Wigan do a yearly training camp and seem to offer stuff I try to get involved for sure, and I dont like the fancyisms in judo and BJJ eff all that crap. And most of them dont understand the physical science of building strength and stamina they all have nerd bodys, nothing against nerd I am one too just saying. I like cranking out endless push ups squats, pull ups, hill sprints, then when you spar its easier. BJJ grapplers others are too fond of not training stamina and strength to the highest level however the ones that do are usually the highest achievers

[@JM-jc1vz]

Interesting perspective, subscribed. BJJ practitioner that hopes to study some catch wrestling before these knees give out.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Welcome to the Fight Team!

[@IvanCapitani]

Everything you described about Catch is precisely what makes it more appealing than BJJ to me. Even the techniques' names are way more fascinating so to speak. I would take a "double wrist lock" over a "kimura" any time, not to mention names like the grape vine or the banana split.

[@Swamp_Donkey_]

as someone thats recently begun learning about catch wrestling, its pretty sad to take in, but from my perspective it seems like youre right. wrestling is so much more interesting to me but there simply arent any gyms left. Billy Scott had a catch wrestling gym a couple hours away from me but he closed it a year or two ago. at this point im just going to give in and hope i can find a bjj gym that teaches no gi. its really sad to see it fading into history.

[@lekcindr]

How would it even be possible for someone to get into catch if they wanted to? And, is it something that someone who (is athletic but) has never trained a combat sport able to start or should you have some base in anther combat sport first?

[@corrugatedcavalier5266]

Honestly, I'm not versed in either system. I have some grappling/wrestling background and current training that I can get into, but I appreciate that although the title is a bit "clickbaity", your points seem to be well grounded as always. Looking forward to what you and others have to say about this. FIGHT TEAM!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you!

[@andrewtregoning]

you baited me, appropriately, and immediately got a new subscriber. i fucking love cacc, going to a seminar with ian jones in my native sheffield next month, it's a much revered art up here amoungst the old ma nerds

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Welcome to the fight team! Ian is a beast, you'll love it!

[@LeeJCander]

I’d love to have a catch wrestling class, or any kind of wrestling near me to be honest! I train Muay Thai and BJJ and as you said that middle ground (where wrestling is strongest!) would be great to learn and I’d love to learn a British art.

[@anthonywestbrook2155]

I do wonder if one tournament using different rule-sets for each round, a sort of martial arts decathlon, could train superior, more well rounded fighters. Competition makes people willing to grab whatever works, but this puts most styles in the position of either gatekeeping for the sake of tradition, or just becoming bog standard MMA. If I had to learn a specific rules-set of catch wrestling to make it through round one, I might not become the world's best catch wrestler, but I'd get a significant chunk of its value added to my skills. Each style becomes a game unto itself. Oh, and if I were running such a tournament, kata would be used for initial placements.

[@nightangelx1513]

This is interesting I actually love catch more. As a kid I did jiu jitsu with my dad, and once I got to high school I fell in love with wrestling. I liked the techniques better, and it’s more aggressive style. I had fun with BJJ but something always felt missing. The mentality was different. I needed more of a camp rather than a school. Fast forward a few years, I started training at CSW with Eric Paulson. And my mind was blown. It was like the best parts of Wrestling, but combined with submissions. And no techniques are blacklisted, which was a big problem I had with BJJ. Who cares if the techniques are’t “graceful” does it work ? Then keep doing it. Catch feels like the more “real” form of grappling to me.

[@silverjohn6037]

0:25 It's interesting the book is called Physical Chess as I once had it explained to me that in order to enjoy watching a wrestling or chess match you had to be fairly expert on the subject in order to notice when something important had happened. In wrestling because it probably happened so fast and in chess because you need to see where the move would lead to in another 10-15 moves.

[@SoftewareDeveloper]

Why did catch die in the UK? Such a shame. I live in London and can’t find a catch wrestling gym. Are there any instructionals online that would teach me catch to a high standard?

[@henriquecarvalho880]

Hey, I don't know if you knew, but for a time there was s type of catch wrestling in Brazil, called luta livre, it was probably brought from Britain, but the thing is: for some time, it was almost as popular in the city of Rio de janeiro as jiu jitsu, and the two arts actually fought. I don't know how much about their fight is real and how much was build as part of the BJJ folklore, but "luta livre" really existed and we still have a feel practitioners and schools

[@ScottPaterson]

Glad I made an impression from our chat! My additional 2 pence worth is I don't think catch has ever been a method it's been a principle and that's the difference.

[@onemanarmy_elo]

I train under John Potenza, one of Billy Robinson's protégés. Have you trained with or heard of him?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I've heard of him, and only good things.

[@lajuanjohnsonbtc9634]

I'm 50 & not a grappler. Your descriptions only served to make me want to learn CACC even more.

[@perfectsplit5515]

What I heard about Pedro Sauer is that if one of his students is able to tap people just by muscle-ing through techniques and relying on brute strength, Pedro will not promote him just because of that. Even if that student can tap higher ranking belts. Pedro wants people to rely on technique in order to warrant a promotion.

[@kickinwinghotboi883]

I honestly never thought of the whole situation like that, I've always seen it as the BJJ guys adding more wrestling techniques to their grappling game but you make a good point; they are assimilating (great way to word/explain it) wrestling techniques, whether it's Catch techniques or other styles, but because they are doing that and the BJJ schools will surely, if they already aren't, begin adding those techniques to their curriculum, this leads to many new generations of BJJ students being led to believe that it is all BJJ techniques without ever being told or taught about where alot of the techniques they're learning came from, allowing Catch wrestling to be pushed to the side more and more until eventually, BJJ will basically be no different than Catch wrestling after adopting most everything that it can from Catch. To some people I fear this would have them ask, "I already learn that stuff at my BJJ gym, what's the point of Catch wrestling?" Or worse, them assuming Catch wrestling is some new up and coming grappling style that is trying to steal techniques from BJJ. BJJ is literally swallowing Catch wrestling

[@towardstar]

I don't know how someone can see all those aesthetic concerns about catch wrestling and not think theyre part of what make it cool in the first place. That stuff is so unique and cool its got a different feel to it, and you gotta wonder what kind of ideal it is hiding underneath. Surely something worth teaching to people

[@dlowone]

I learned catch at a boys and girls club and love the art to this day! I think your absolutely correct. I went into a 10 planet school not to long ago and found they have basically made a way to learn catch wrestling in a safe friendly manner! Make no mistake it’s catch wrestling what there doing but they made it easier to learn for the masses. I hope that makes sense.

[@MrAlepedroza]

How do you folks train? Its fascinating how Eddie Bravo was mocking Catch for years in the internet, yet in the end he ended up teaching almost the same things.

[@TC-bv4on]

Are there any active catch wrestlers that are well known today? I think iminari is about it. Not sure how active Josh Barnett is.

[@karlr4060]

I've done quite the opposite, started out in BJJ. Even in my early years I always had an eye out for catch, freestyle and folkstylewrestling. Now a days our academy practice a hybrid of all the above sprinkled with some judo. Our grappling is geared towards MMA so training exclusively in one style just doesn't cut it. In Sweden there is no official catchwrestling clubs. The closest style would be Sambo but even that is in steady decline. I've had the luck to meet a lot of pure wrestlers that fell in love with submissions. Keeping their original style of grappling and simply added submissions from BJJ. I think one of the reasons is the level of fitness and grit that is required in wrestling simply deters a lot of hobbyists.

[@steveolson7824]

I currently train in Judo, but always wanted to learn catch. There’s a csw gym in Portland but quite a drive so will have to try it sometime later. Wish it was closer, not a fan of bjj so will stick with Judo for now.

[@non-stopnewaza9266]

7:20 Agree with the conclusion though I think a distinction needs to be made though between no-gi and gi jiu-jitsu. I feel that no-gi has evolved into something much more like the concept of catch wrestling especially when it comes to ADCC rules events. Gordon Ryan won a match by smothering an opponent earlier this year. Gi jiu-jitsu on the other hand has devolved somewhat as academies have moved from serving people interested in MMA and become more focused on the BJJ rules set. I had a BJJ student that moved to another country and the school he joined told him: "Just put people in closed guard and keep them there for 5 minutes, so you'll win a decision. If they open your guard, try to score an advantage and then close your guard for the rest of the match."

[@fareedingram4626]

@EMA .. Where can you learn CCw in NJ .. I would love to learn this long lost art .. Wrestling is just a better conditioning!! ..

[@specialforces237]

You've actually scared the f#@k out of me! I would hate for the art to become extinct...

[@BecozPro]

BJJ guy here (from the UK funnily enough), poking my head up. Enjoyed the video and had some thoughts :) I think generally there's an agreement that the 3 big holes in BJJ used to be 1) Leglocks, 2) Takedowns and 3) Pinning, specifically with pressure and also holding people down who want to get up. 1) has been patched up although as you pointed out, lower belts are still playing catch up here 2) and 3) are essentially what you pointed out are the pros of catch over bjj, which I think most bjj guys would agree with you on, especially if you compare the average hobbyist. That being said, the nogi scene for BJJ is tending towards the ADCC ruleset which forces people to wrestle well and hold their opponents down better. I think as you said, we're very much open to stealing/borrowing and adapting from other sports for our own purposes. The most recent ADCC had a lot of footsweeps from Judo, even in nogi. I guess because wrestling is so hard, bjj has the option to not pursue the harder style of work (takedowns and pins) as in catch or other forms of wrestling and Judo or something seen as too dangerous by some (like leglocks), which suits and attracts a lot of hobbyists. Thankfully though, there's still the option to deep dive into those areas, which I think the higher level of bjj competition will reflect in the coming years!

[@loneronin6813]

Although the first martial art I ever trained in was Judo and I still dearly love it despite not being able to practice it anymore, I'm more experienced at getting ahold of my opponent in grappling range by no-gi methods and I do find it far more effective, especially the way I tend to grapple given that I contend with constant back pain that is managed with intense, almost daily exercise. I'm not able to roll or really lift up and slam an opponent anymore, but I compensate by focusing on using sweeping techniques combined with manipulating my opponent's upper body in the opposite direction of where I'm sweeping their legs as well as using chokes, holds, joint locks, and (in a self defense scenario when necessary) limb breaks. In that same vein, I can no longer kick and knee, so I utilize hand and elbow strikes that I mix in with my grappling. I may be a more limited fighter than I used to be, but I've improved in the methods I still utilize. While my ground game is limited now to chokes, arm bars, and methods of escape, I believe that as I've aged and dealt with injuries/disabilities (I'm currently only 30 though for the record) I've had to evolve/readjust my methods of fighting. Part of that involves the death of techniques I used to use, but the learning and adaptation of new ones. I hate to see any martial art die and I do find no-gi fighting more practical for my own methods, I do hope that BJJ begins to take on more of Catch Wrestling's methods since it really does seem that the art is dying out by comparison. Hopefully if this shift of techniques occurs it will allow Catch to continue and maybe even have some life still breathed into it by way of cross-pollination so to speak if nothing else. Still, it would be a shame to see pure Catch pass on as it were. When an art begins to lose its purpose due to stagnation and improper training (as I feel Wing Chun has for example) that's one thing, and a shame in its own right, but I would argue that to me at least it's even more saddening to see an effective system die out from lack of popularity. I guess my overall point is that even as a grappler who isn't strictly a wrestler, I've found its techniques and methods more useful than what I once used previously in regards to elements such as no-gi grappling in one form or another. If you ask me, even if Catch loses popularity, it should never be considered to lack relevancy.

[@elijah8970]

I like your mention of the role competitive BJJ plays in its growth and borrowing of other arts. You recognize the omnivorous nature of BJJ, and that while many other arts are shrinking in terms of number of practitioners, their best and most effective techniques are not going away, but being enfolded into jiu jitsu. This has already happened with the current dominance of MMA over other singular grappling or striking martial arts. What is interesting is that nowadays there are [insert martial art] technique for [insert other martial art]. There is wrestling for jiu jitsu, there is jiu jitsu for MMA.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

[@danieltiller1421]

Although I think in terms of fighting staying on TOP position is always wise - its actually BJJ's embracing of guard and bottom positions that really enabled it to be successful. This is actually where Catch/Wrestling have come undone - rather than 'just don't do that' a realistic system needs methodology to deal with situations that can/will arise in a real fight.

[@rafaelbabar3494]

Just started catch at the snake pit in Wigan. I’ve been looking for somewhere to learn wrestling for ages. BJJ is everywhere. Wrestling is part of the sunnah but when most mosques looked to engage their youth they only found BJJ. So despite being a superior system it simply doesn’t have the numbers. I’ve tried telling the guys I train with and they admit that catch is closer to what the Prophet did in the old days but getting then to come to Wigan from Manchester just ain’t happening. Such a shame. Long term I see what you’re saying but I’m an optimist who will stick at catch knowing that quality trumps quantity. Also quite frankly the standard of tuition is far better in catch. Big numbers hinder teacher attention no matter how experienced the teacher. Fashions do fade but what catch needs right now is a big name to fill up their gyms. Let’s talk sometime. There’s far too much to discuss in a comment!

[@maximilianohernandez8462]

BJJ began as a robbery of Kodokan judo, declaring himself an enemy of it but being defeated by Kimura, but Gracies simply copied that technique changing the name, even the famous fight against a bodybuilder in the 90s begins with a blow and ends with juji gatame, that is box and judo ne waza presented as BJJ. So it's nature's art for BJJ to copy, but it's not uncommon in martial arts. However, there is an innovation in BJJ, rolling, and I think it has its great merit, speed in the ground..

[@Vayiram-]

Didn´t have you on this account! Dunno man, collegiate wrestling is alive and well, they don't like gi's and even BJJ guys go nogi whenever they can. Ill give catch another century arround easily (if the civilization lasts). Great, great content!!

[@ThomasBoyce5000]

I don't mean to be off-topic (I do catch and Greco-Roman), but your tone and inflection with your speaking voice, you could put me on the edge of my seat reading a math textbook.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you. I'm looking into recording some of my older boxing books for audible.

[@LPE-oz4yz]

I've noticed some no gi guys in Britain doing catch tournaments (namely Owen Livesey). But because the catch world is so underexposed and catch guys don't show up at the grappling tournaments with some kind of notoriety it feels as if it is so seperate from the general submission grappling landscape. In contrast BJJ is much more universal and better promoted so it dominates the landscape. Modern submission grappling in the U.K is pretty much dominated by BJJ now. I guess the only hope is for catch guys to start cross-competing, doing well in MMA or for BJJ guys to start filling the brackets at the handful of catch tournaments.

[@captainquagmire859]

Where are you from? My BJJ instructor also was trained under Andy Roberts

[@captainquagmire859]

If you are local and want to revive catch wrestling my club is looking for wrestling instructors