Cathars, Crusaders, and the Inquisition

[@alexvince461]

For me these lectures are the best thing on KZbin by a mile, I haven't listened to this one yet but I wanted to get the first comment in, I listen to every lecture multiple times, thank you so much

[@vthompson947]

I completely agree. I'm a medieval historian and I still learn so much from John and Leandro.

[@ndeepowder]

I listen and like most of the content but the fact that they are mormans and belive in the fairytale "god" is disappointing. All religions are man made... the abrahamic religions in particular are disgusting yokes upon weak minded people.

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

@@ndeepowder Are they Mormons? I asked that once and was told they were not. {:-:-:}

[@ndeepowder]

@@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095 yes they are a type of mormon, lds, Joseph Smith following crazy stuff

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

@@ndeepowder He aid somehting in one talk which made me ask if he was Mormon, but I forget what it was. But everyone who replied said that the host is not Mormon. {:-:-:}

[@MrMCN1963]

have been listening to various historical videos and documentaries on youtube for over a decade. This presenter and his content are absolutely the best for anyone interested in well researched and layered historical dives into western history. fabulous!!!

[@adamtyson3962]

I'm always impressed with the historical detail and sources these lectures bring to the table; thank you so much for sharing!

[@jaywatanabe4706]

Loved this format of doing your well researched lecture followed by your discussion questions John. All very thought provoking and deeply philosophical. My type of Sabbath!

[@alainaaugust1932]

1:17:25 Foreknowledge is not causation. If in a storm you stand on a high cliff above a rocky ocean beach and so see a ship, sails shredded, heading for the rocks and doom, are you causing the wreck? Foreknowledge is not causation. Sorry the Cathars didn’t see this. Sounds like it was all about power anyway with theological ideas the weapons. Kudos for your work-enormous amount of research, thanks.

[@ncarmstron]

Wondrium is very good, but John Hamer lectures are even better! Addictive…in a good way.

[@pr0cessa]

lecturer has such a gift, flat out fantastic, esp RE this topic,went to petreperteuse, montsegur, rennes-le-chateau, powerful energy there!

[@mauricehalfhide3982]

Excellent as usual. I especially liked the graphics for US/THEM at the end. Very effective illustration and explanation. Oh and the other thing I especially liked is his jacket.

[@TotalWar305]

Thanks John! Been listening to all of your lectures from Victoria. Much appreciated.

[@myvibe3893]

New to your Channel. Very Impressed. 👀

[@lukec.872]

It seems the asceticism of the Cathars was the draw, not necessarily their theology. Enjoyed the ways they attempted to avoid the inquisitor and by no means unintelligent people.

[@MagnaMater2]

It's very interesting that these Bogumiles along with the Indian reincarnation-is-bad and their vegetarian and purity ideals appear on the Balkans and in southern France the same time the people of the Sinti and Roma did. Those originally were the - most likely highly religious - upper class administrators thrown out of the Indus-Valley with the arrival of the Mongols when they refused to convert to Islam and chose exile. They went first to the Elbrus and the Kaukasus, then obviously along with the Paulikans to the Balkan, then they took over the Aromunic wool-trade and arrived in northern Italy and southern France.

[@annaboudreauwoodside4723]

The two Simon de Montforts were father and son. I love these lectures. TY

[@TheNAWorks]

this one rocks. happy to get it

[@KellieDoll28]

Thank you for this lecture. Informative and illuminating.

[@40551385]

Keep up the good work thanks

[@blogbalkanstories4805]

As for Bosnia and the Bogomils: Current historical consensus is that there was no major Bogomil presence in Bosnia, even though the theory is very popular in Bosnia itself and a handful of historical sources make that suggestion. The main material evidence cited for the claim are stećci, which are gravestones unique to Bosnia and some surrounding regions. They however contain motives that contradict rather than confirm Bogomil influence (crosses, depictions of the deceased, of actual animals etc.). It is one of the graves you showed. The Bogomil theory on Bosnia was consensus among historians until a few decades ago, though. Henry Charles Lea mentions it prominently in his history of the Inquisition and the Catholic Church in medieval times. It is a standard work on the Inquisition to the day, and in spite of a number of details being disproven, such as the Bogomil thesis on Bosnia, it is rightfully so. I presume you based a lot of this otherwise great lecture on him, and for good reason.

[@blogbalkanstories4805]

P.S: Main source for my claims: Noel Malcolm's BOSNIA: A SHORT HISTORY, the current standard book on Bosnian history in English. (There isn't many around to begin with, though.)

[@alanpennie8013]

@@blogbalkanstories4805 If you're interested in The Bosnian Church you ought to read John Fine's book which I believe to be definitive. It's not especially easy reading though.

[@blogbalkanstories4805]

@@alanpennie8013 Thanks. Will look into it. If you get into details, no historical study is an easy read, even if the language is very reader friendly.

[@Ekam-Sat]

Perhaps the English word Bogus is related to Bogumils/Bogomils.

[@waytoblue625]

Thank you. I so appreciate you and your channel👍💯💖🤗

[@jeng.1439]

This man is the best teacher. I wish I would have had him back in high school and college...I could have actually learned so much more

[@Pilgrimsrummet]

Who is he? Is he a mormon?

[@Foz-g9p]

Hi, Im wondering what reading material you used regarding the Cathars? I'm currently writing a paper on them along with other so called heretical forms of Christianity and would like to read further. Great lecture anyway, thanks. If you put videos up on topics im writing about, they always help me orientate my mind around the topic in general which is super helpful.

[@alanpennie8013]

The best place to start is always Wikipedia, provided you have some sense about what is a good source. I haven't read anything more recent than Runciman's, The Medieval Manichee so I don't know much (though I have visited Albi). I went to Wikipedia and it's really obvious that the place to start is Malcolm Barber, The Cathars (2,000).

[@robertruggiero9999]

The Christianities that “lost out”, such as docetism and anti trinitarian Christianities formed the basis of Islam

[@paisiioanovich4421]

How can an executioner adequately describe the life and creed of his victim? Therefore, all information about the Cathars and their teaching that has reached us through the Catholic world is not reliable.

[@1917Albertso]

I recommend a series of books, they are fantasy, but its very much related to the Albegisian crusade, the author is Glen Cook the series is called Instrumentalities of the night, its very interesting, and it takes place in a fictional Europe, its a great read.

[@peckerwood6078]

Your Giggles are a little distracting at times and mostly disarming and endearing for the greater part so please continue with excellent information conveyed in succinct and concise manner. Was interested to know of your cartography background as can see how informative to be able to see Kulture evolve as geography changes both as a function of regime change! Stellar points well put with a big scoop of whimsy!! Thanks! Love it!! Lea!

[@normanstratford9329]

Good perspective. I wonder how rich the nobles were as they could have a problem with the poor in society. Knights need arms and perhaps spending money on swords etc could be difficult to sort out in spiritual terms.

[@alanpennie8013]

The relationship of chivalry to the church is a really strange and curious ones. These were really antithetical creeds, but in medieval times they managed to find a modus vivendi, with results that weren't entirely happy.

[@TheStobb50]

Even in Scotland where I am, if the king travelled to Elgin in the north-east of Scotland he had to use translators, The same as England there wasn’t a national language until the arrival of the king James Bible which in turn produced standard English, this was one of the unintended results of the king James Bible

[@peckerwood6078]

Not unintended but quite deliberate via the Norman systemification of words which first took place in the court of France with Molliere etc.but far out shone by Shakespeare and the Knights of the Helmet, University wits etc.!! Many unique verbiage’s & passages which Cannon of Shakespeare and KJV alone share!! However there is another work that fills out the trinity of the Anglo Norman Reformation! Best for you to seek it on your own resolve! True Knight if you be!

[@niklavssenkans8341]

plase make lecture about Inquisition and heresty and witch hunt and protestant and medieval magic

[@AdrianESabau]

Great lecture, minor flaw noticed in pronunciation of "Languedoc" and "Languedoil", should be "langdoc" not "landjedoc". Otherwise, very interesting, as usual. 👍

[@alanpennie8013]

In medieval Italy Dualists were rather confusingly called Patarenes (after an anticlerical movement in Milan). Even more confusingly the tag was extended to The Bosnian Church, which definitely wasn't Dualist.

[@devasadhvi]

Thank you!!

[@irianscott1062]

corporeal bodies = a tautology? May I suggest, 'corporeal forms'?

[@kaikrist]

Cathars seem to have a lot in common with Buddhism. Did Buddhism influence the early Paulicians?

[@alanpennie8013]

Possibly. As was said we don't know very much about Paulician theology, which is frustrating.

[@Dominic-mm6yf]

More Manichean in nature.

[@ludonymous526]

Cathars and Buddhists are similar, yet very different.

[@iamhudsdent2759]

Good presentation, sir. One thing I would might quibble about though. You seem to be saying that it was nation states that created racism. But racism within human beings did not need nation states to be expressed or practiced. Racism is, rather, natural to darker side of human nature. National boundaries notwithstanding.

[@jamesbusald7097]

There is an apocryphal story about Brigham Young sitting at a truck stop drinking coco and asking the waitress, "Can you fill it with coffee for me."

[@alainaaugust1932]

1:31:33 Deulism vs. monotheism: the entire history of the debate shows our historic inclination to projection. It’s not us, it’s never us, it’s the snake, it’s the woman, it’s God, it’s Satan, it’s demons. Note how evil and its sources are never us, no matter the theology. We keep ourselves pure, the devil made me do it or, somehow, it’s God’s fault, but not us. It took one on the greatest minds of the 20th century (yes, that long), Carl Jung, to say “It is us. From Eden it’s been us. We humans create evil on this earth. We bury, deny, reject, project the Shadow within and call it fate.” And call the other guy evil. That’s a rough translation but Jung’s clear, unambiguous meaning. Shadow work is something other than, more than “just exercise your free will and change.” In Jung a human, finally, explained the source of evil. Shadow work is a difficult, often painful challenge. No wonder many still prefer to blame demons. Or God.

[@RUcookoo]

I heard legends that Justinian had a dark spirit abut him, seen by several people at times. Most likely as they were setting up their new empire.

[@alanbellamy5103]

I would appreciate a lecture laying out the reasons John believes Christianity should be progressive.

[@LarsLiveLaughLove]

Lots of courtly intrigues and international politics going on in the battle-scarred region, with numerous interactions between these various kingdoms.. literally like game of thrones!

[@USA50_]

For some reason it keeps stopping after 23 mins and just spins?

[@USA50_]

❤️ the Cathars!

[@scaraboo3624]

Me too. Trencavel, the countess of Foix and others brave true Christians

[@klasclaywood2667]

Wait, so who were the 8th century Cathars?

[@Stolas1777]

This is a common trend within academia to have theories oh this didn’t exist, that didn’t really exist. I love Justin sledges channel and religion for breakfast but the fact that troops were deployed, we have a common line through time for the “cathar” theology and we have writings of a group show that there was most definitely a cathar group. Now whether they called themselves that or anything else is of little consequence, there was a definite dualistic sect of Christianity that ran afoul the Roman church that was stamped out. It’s the same as saying oh gnostics didn’t exist because they didn’t call themselves that. But they did exist we are just giving them a label. Neanderthals certainly existed yet probably didn’t call themselves anything. Academia is funny the way some goofball professor comes out and says something off the cuff like cathars didn’t exist and then Justin sledge repeats it now it’s an actual theory even though it has no basis in reality

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

29:00

[@charlesbrigman7333]

As C.S. Lewis says their is no evil equivalent to God. Pure evil would consume itself. So Dualism does not work.

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

Well one could argue Zoroaster did a pretty good job with dualism ;)

[@yohei72]

Works better than the omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity who allows rape, the Holocaust, bone cancer, etc. EDIT: That said, neither works if you give it much thought. I prefer "None of the above."

[@lukec.872]

Builds character

[@willempasterkamp862]

dualism is not (necessarily) between good and evil, that's more the view of opponents. its rather between the physical and spiritual realm or darkness and light. ingnorance versus gnosis (enlightenment).

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

@@willempasterkamp862 Yes, but that's more a distinction used in eastern philosophy/religion . The whole 'God versus the devil ' is tagged as Dualism in Christian theology / history.

[@PhilthCollinz]

But the evil is not random its man choosing and doing evil

[@allendish]

The Paulicians come from Armenia, the first Christian state. Otherwise, good presentation

[@richardpaschal2218]

As long as Richard the Lionheart lived, the Cathars were protected.

[@stutzbearcat5624]

I think I only disagree with this gentleman on - the historicity of the Jesus myth. It seems he somehow thinks there actually was this Jesus guy.

[@ducdejoyeuse]

You obviously have not visited here in France, " To win the game ; Tick Tack begin with Irish," Sir Francis Bacon, the term Cathar is a catholic corruption of Cathair Irish for City pronounced Co-Her and Cathaoir Irish for Throne pronounced Co-He-Er. To find the source it is essential to know that Pythagoras wrote the Bi-Ble as the Cathair / Cathaoir knew and understood they knew their source was the Irish language as the Languedoc means the Language of Yes, it all can be found in Eze-Ceil ten meaning, six six disguise. Only by understanding the Irish language can any light be shed on the Cathair / Cathaoir and what they believed they certainly had no christian views

[@mikegarwood8680]

@1:09:00. Stop with the modern interpretation of "negativity" what out ancestors were doing then. Conquest happened. It was neither good or bad. It was the past. It is "bad" historical analysis to "color" the past with a "modern" lens.

[@jeffkunce8501]

A pastor criticizing the misuse of wealth and power? I don't think that's a modern innovation.

[@andrewisjesus]

christianity is obviously intended to reveal our spiritual Higher purpose and Transcendental Conciousness Oneness with each other and God. No Male or Female in heaven as we will be Transcendent Beings. See; Its all over it

[@andrewisjesus]

Absurdist to trust those sources though.

[@hsuttles7645]

The god of the Old Testament is no God at all. God, the All, the Source gave conscious beings the gift of Free Will. It would not be free will if God imposed his Will on us. What God did impose was “Natural Law”, the honoring of Free Will of others. If we operate within Natural Law (something know as the Golden Rule) we classify that as good. Operations out side of Natural Law, violating others gift of Free Will is classified as bad or evil. It’s about responsibility of our own actions.

[@ludonymous526]

Yes. But those pesky Gnostics ignore that. They hate life, and also hate God, which is why they're a heresy for a reason.

[@chrisdow6627]

Fish just appear... Yeah that's why it's called a spawn point.