Catholic vs. Orthodox Papacy Debate (Jay Dyer vs. Erick Ybarra)

Catholic vs. Orthodox Papacy Debate (Jay Dyer vs. Erick Ybarra) Hosted by Michael Lofton #debate #catholicism #papacy #jaydyer
Michael starts out by discussing Canon 6 of Nicaea I and Roman Primacy with Erick. After an hour Jay Dyer joins the video for an impromptu debate with Erick on the papacy. The show then examines many issues including epistemology, the papal charisms, development of doctrine, etc.
00:00 Introduction
1:08 Canon 6 and the Papacy
9:06 Five Primacies of Rome
12:55 Immediate or Mediate Jurisdiction?
16:40 Jay Dyer Chat Questions
21:15 Formula of St. Hormisdas
23:40 Forgeries of Pope Symmachus
28:20 Motives of Credibility
31:52 Why Ecumenical Councils?
38:31 Final Thoughts on Canon 6
41:16 Nicea and Chalcedon
45:00 More Jay Dyer Questions
50:00 Jay Wants to Debate
51:12 Vatican II and Indifferentism
58:24 Multiple Primacies in Church
1:01:50 DEBATE BEGINS
1:07:24 Back to Canon 6
1:13:24 Orthodox Ecclesiology
1:17:30 Problems with Jay's Argument
1:26:40 Papal Infallibility
1:29:46 Icons and Doctrinal Development
1:33:04 Orthodox Internal Schism
1:37:36 Is Erick Hard-Headed?
1:45:18 Can Ecumenical Councils be Wrong?
1:52:00 Letter of Pope St. Agatho
1:59:50 Confession of St. Sophronius
2:03:15 History and Neutrality
2:06:02 Pope Hadrian II and Papal Supremacy
2:10:30 What Counts as Evidence?
2:19:06 Perfect Consistency
2:25:15 Vatican I Can't Tolerate Error
2:40:05 Theoretical Agreement (?)
2:47:14 Epistemology and the Holy Spirit
2:53:24 Personal Insults
2:54:20 Nous and Divine Energies
2:57:07 Enlightenment Through Institutions
2:59:28 Classical Foundationalism
3:02:51 Good Wishes and Conclusion
___________________________________________________________________
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[@EncyclicalPrograms]

I want to give my experience going on Jays space last weekend. I am a Protestant, and I was arguing for our inclusion in the church of Christ. Immediately he accuses me of being someone else, and that really threw me off because I was already nervous. Then came an onslaught of questions which he never allowed me to answer in detail. Then when I asked him to provide info on a subject I didn’t know about, he muted me. I love the church, both Catholic and Orthodox, but I was very disappointed in his behavior because I did look up to him.

[@ReasonandTheology]

That just scratches the surface of his disturbing behavior. I have stories for days.

[@EncyclicalPrograms]

@@ReasonandTheology I can see why you guys don't want to debate him anymore. It's not just about him being mean, it's about him being unstable, and not letting you get a word in without interrupting, it's rather frustrating.

[@Electricianservicesoc]

He talks over people he doesn’t know how to debate or have a conversation. He needs a moderator to shut his mouth when he’s out of line

[@Electricianservicesoc]

@@OrthoNektarios This does not excuse or prove anything, at least you admit he lacks real fruit

[@Electricianservicesoc]

@@OrthoNektarios There is no need to answer any of his questions on the historical data of Catholicism and Orthodox, because it’s irrelevant, I would of split from your gathering before the Catholic Church. A sleazy salesman creates problems and sells you the solution. That’s what Jay Dyer is a sleazy salesman, he should sell used beat up cars, his followers would buy it

[@dominicmorgan1685]

I was an Anglo catholic when I first watched this debate. Got interested in EO and Jay Dyer was a man I loved to listen too. This was the first time I could honestly say Jay lost a debate ( and arguably the only time I’ve seen so far). A few months later I decided to become a catholic. This was not because of this video , as my pride blinded me to the truth. I can only thank our lady for guiding me to the correct church when I asked her and for god giving me the grace to ask in the first place. In the 2021 Easter vigil I was received into the ordinariate of our lady of walsingham. Thanks for the video chaps. Still love jay dyers work , but I think Ybarra is by far the better historian. I know am a subscriber and a regular listener to R and T . Michael gives one of the most nuanced approaches to dealing with the current crises as opposed to Taylor Marshall and the like. God bless

[@DavidTheAssyrian]

lmao which video did you watch?

[@mattstiglic]

So you think participating in a church that perpetuates ecumenism, unitarianism, gay and lesbian preachers, transgender jesus, etc is the true church?

[@mattstiglic]

This guy is a better historian than Jay? Jays massive body of work alone makes him one of the most read historians available online, and thats excluding his exhaustive knowledge on theology, philosophy, metaphysics, i could go on. Ybarra couldnt shine his shoes.

[@michaelvigil3436]

@@countryboyred But part of the bad behavior was not letting the man finish his response, sure he had a tendency to repeat the same thing over and over again before actually getting to his point but Jay would never actually let him get to his point. I wonder why they never did another debate because I think it could be very enlightening

[@pavelcrestin1]

Someone's behaviour does not mean that his belief system is wrong or not. If a hindu was nice as Erick, I wouldn't become hindu. Just out of curiosity, given the contradictions that post Vatican II has compared to pre Vatican II, are you still a catholic?

[@PeteV80]

Man, after 20 years of online debate, Jay unfortunately reminds me of myself. This has been pretty eye opening to my own habits. Excellent job, Ybarra. Exposed to me personally how much growth I need.

[@Esch-a-ton3]

Wonderful humility brother

[@uptop3711]

Can we talk about the irony of Dyer talking about Ybarra being in a church that is bad for peoples’ souls while he’s acting in a completely uncharitable and disrespectful manner?

[@tactfulrogue]

Let me talk to peter who called people dogs real quick.

[@basedsigmalifter9482]

@@tactfulrogue Peter also denied Jesus. The apostles were not impeccable, not every action of theirs should be emulated.

[@ConradThePalamite]

@@basedsigmalifter9482so why do you expect dyer to be impeccable?

[@Weebgamer236]

I like jay but bro wasnt letting errick talk .like let him make his point.​@@ConradThePalamite

[@JeremiahAranez]

​@@tactfulrogue Jesus also called people dogs, what your point here??

[@tonyjames9016]

I am raised Catholic and became Orthodox. I have been called back to Catholicism but had some confusion internally that I have been working through. I watched this to gain some perspective. Erick was a knowledgeable gentleman. Jay’s demeanor and temperament does not represent Orthodoxy well, and has turned me off to hearing any point he may have. Erick’s knowledge, and demeanor lends to a holy and peaceful perspective. You will know them by their fruits. Thank you Erick. Not by your knowledge, but by your example, I am coming closer to a decision . May God bless you and your ministry. Also discontinuing my subscription to Jays channel. This isn’t a tit for tat action, this is to teach a lesson that poor behavior will not be tolerated, and that there are honest seekers questioning the future of their souls who are looking toward men like him for answers, and are greeted with his poor behavior. Mr. Dyer, your behavior has repercussions. May Lord have Mercy.

[@markwalkerrocker4Jesus]

raised Catholic, left, went to the protestants for awhile, and contemplated orthodox, but returned to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and now going to the TLM and loving it. this catholic/orthodox struggle is the devil trying to destroy us. Viva Cristo Rey!

[@randomperson-gp8ph]

Dont agree with your reasoning. You basically saying because of Jays behavior you didn't listen to any of his points and like how ybarra conducted himself so you accept what he is saying. This somehow leads you to being roman catholic. If individual who was catholic who met a Muslim who was nice to them and their catholic family was not nice is it good reasoning to become Muslim? You need to listen to Jays actual points and understand them and then make decision and take out emotions.

[@SaintCharbelMiracleworker]

@@randomperson-gp8ph It's all in the delivery, people won't listen if you are behaving like a jerk no matter who solid your argument is. If you'e an atheist who cares but if you are a follower of Christ we have a responsibility to imitate Him in the world. Christ is supposed to transform our entire being, behave charitably in interaction with each other in deed and words, show the fruits of that conversion. Eriks behaviour impacted him more. He didn't say he was returning to Catholicism because of one debate. He clearly says he's CLOSER to a decision, he's on a journey, the debate was just one step on the path. He was a subscriber to Jays channel so he has had ample opportunity to listen to his arguments and watch his behaviour before the debate.

[@randomperson-gp8ph]

@@SaintCharbelMiracleworker He literally says he has not listened to any points jay dyer made because of his demeanor. It is not reasonable. No matter how you try to justify it. A wise man can even learn from a fool. Jay is far from a fool. Would it not be reasonable to say I listened to both debaters. After understanding both their arguments then decide where the truth lies.

[@heftymagic4814]

"left orfodoxy cuz jay dyer mean!" you cant make this stuff up lmfao

[@yeshuadvargas5552]

The Pope can be wrong, Orthodox Saints can be wrong, Orthodox Councils can be wrong, Ecumenical Councils can be wrong, but not Jay Dyer. Impossible.

[@WhyCatholicdotCom]

you are the only commenter who seems to have summarized this whole mess correctly 😂

[@Acularis]

Yes a bunch of quote mines mean your position is right. I guess that means all the Protestant denominations are right too since they can quote-mine almost as food as Ybarra 😂

[@Acularis]

Ecumenical councils condemned the Pope BTW. Vatican 1 and 2 are built on a stack of cards and if you remove 1 the whole house falls down.

[@georgeluke6382]

Wait, I agree Dyer's not charitable. But isn't the issue both EO and RC have the same issue? 1:45:50-1:49:20 ish is really helpful on both EO an RC admitting eccunumenical councils having reception theory that can develop things dialectically over time. Magisterial development and theoretical infallibility, with the unique infallible authority of the pope in the system, and the impossibility of the papal structure failing, is similar to the impossibility of the orthodox structure failing.

[@georgeluke6382]

2:13:58 - the whole epistemology thing is great

[@LPSCaitelyn]

I’m afraid that my pride has kept me away from the thought of the Catholic Church being right.. this is eye opening to me that I might’ve acted this way. I was a nondenominational Christian praying to God for wisdom and guidance because I want to be closer to God. I was considering orthodoxy but after this I need to research more..

[@franknwogu4911]

amen, if I may recommend, pinesap makes great videos

[@jamesmeyer4596]

S Shamoun says Jay is a beast, this proves Eric is a beast buster,

[@evolvingerinb]

I wish I would have listened to this, when it happened. Sorry to say, this sort of behavior is common online and as well in many parishes. Erick conducted himself well. I am truly so blessed to have found such good teachers as you and people like Erick. God bless you both.

[@tomgjokaj3716]

If being arrogant and cocky was a requirement to be a Saint Jay would be one hell of a saint 🤣😂

[@frankperrella1202]

Jay Dyer is just a Pompous Windbag Jerk Rich 🤑 Kid! God bless you brother 🛐🗝️🗝️🛡️⚔️💯 Catholic

[@giannobong6778]

Yeah I don’t think he’s being arrogant or cocky, I think he’s being short, impatient, and discourteous especially in comparison to Eric but he clearly perceives a dishonest and derailing pattern in Eric that he’s become impatient with wether you agree with his perception or not.

[@EmberBright2077]

​​@@giannobong6778 Where is Erick being dishonest or derailing?

[@lettucearsebiscuits8375]

Not at all too dissimilar to Orthodox "saints" post-schism.

[@tucker3601]

Jay often excuses his behavior with "the church fathers used to get heated in debates all the time bro!"

[@tomscrace6571]

Erick exhibits the patience of a saint in this debate.

[@om-qg7ju]

Not really, he just purposely ignores most of what jay says and says the same already refuted arguments over and over

[@dwightschrute900]

Erick was a saint In this debate.

[@signumcrucis4172]

True. This is the difference between the spirit of evangelizing (Erick) and proselytizing (Jay). Erick's patience and goodwill is far more reminiscent of the Gospel than Jay's anger and marketing tactics.

[@pauloicaro]

I'm known for my patience but I'd be cursing his entire genealogy if he was that imature to me. Gish Galloped the whole time

[@EmberBright2077]

​@@om-qg7ju Example?

[@mememe1468]

I’m currently an ex-Protestant weighing the EOC and RCC and this discussion really helped a lot. Jay dyer was my main source of Orthodoxy and I feel Eric did very well against him! Though Jay does put out some interesting stuff about globalism and new world order stuff I think I’ll have to look elsewhere for orthodox theological talks. Maybe just convert to Catholicism already

[@eduardovalentin9416]

If I might add anything, this kind of philosophical historical stuff will go on forever and ever. What's important to know is that you can never really be certain of something unless God gives you a glimpse into his fullness. That being said, the best place you can learn about the Orthodox faith, and the Catholic faith, for that matter, is simply by going and experiencing the two of them. The intellect alone won't take you to where you need to go! But if you're looking for more digestable content, I'd suggest with the youtube channel theoria. It helped me a lot during my conversion.

[@silvanussum5188]

And what about you know?

[@johncollorafi3548]

If you email youtuber truthbetold7, he will send you gratis a lengthy patristic book about the papacy issues based strictly from Church Fathers. Keep praying and discerning and you may be closing in on the truth sooner than you think.

[@basicin4mationvlog293]

Ew world order ? From the conspiracy of the SDA? Goodness 😅😅😅. People now( atleast in Philippines,specially those protestants, and cults) are blaming Catholics for the covid 19 and the injection is now starting for that ONE WORLD RELIGION 🤣🤣🤣.

[@mememe1468]

@@johncollorafi3548 I actually converted maybe 2 months after this video! Truthbetolds conversion in late 2019 led to the end of my entertaining eastern orthodoxy. His brief talk on Vladimir soloveyevs book, Russia and the universal church, led me to read the book which was the final nail in the coffin that put it all to rest. Strangely , truthbetold7 seems to have returned to eastern orthodoxy. Hopefully he returns! I mean, every problem he used to rightly complain about within orthodoxy is still present in the EO church. It's actually worse. Yes, I believe I've taken a look at the book In a short video of his. Does he still share the book even though he's turned from catholicism?

[@andrekershaw6244]

Jay simply needs to repent of his lack of self-control. He is the man with the unbridled tongue, of whom James speaks. May God grant him a new heart

[@jesusisthetruegod777]

Like the sacred heart?😭💀

[@Ev-mk3nl]

Thank you Erick. All my aspirations of considering Orthodoxy has vanished. Completely

[@Sebastian-dk6te]

Come to Orthodoxy.

[@yahanan5766]

BECOME ORTHODOX

[@curt8652]

@@Sebastian-dk6te why

[@giannobong6778]

Jays points were unmet by Erick even if Erick was far better behaved. I was expecting Erick to win this debate and especially after I saw how Jay was acting and how it started off with the issue of debate topic but once I focused in on the actual issues discussed Jay made excellent points that Erick couldn’t refute. Papal doctrine, which is central to Catholicism, evolved over time into the beast it is today. Erick pointed out incidences when the Bishop of Rome was respected and honored but never any time greater than most honored bishops and certainly no evidence for what is currently taught as eternal and Catholic papal dogma.

[@Theoretically-ko6lr]

@@LuisRamirez-vv4dk so your making a decision based on how some people behave?? The goal is to find the truth not who acts better..i know many atheist who are thr most polite people i have ever met.. doest that mean i will abandon Christianity and my God for them???

[@LauraBeeDannon]

I'm here from a comment on Jay Dyer vs Nuck Duentes. Thank you, my dude, who left that comment. I am now a fan of Erick Ybarra.

[@hoshuajofstetter784]

Congrats to Erick for being able to make it through Jay acting like a child, I know I could never. The only thing anyone could gain from this is that Jay can’t get anything done with his antics. I pray he gets better and we can achieve something with him.

[@hoshuajofstetter784]

Now I just heard Jay call him an idiot. What a pathetic excuse of an apologist. Pray that God will show mercy on Jay and reveal His love

[@grantmichael110]

Glad I found this channel. I am an EO considering Catholicism. Jay unfortunately acted very immature here and somewhat ruined the video. I am very interested in watching more content from Erick now, as I had never seen him before. Erick seems extremely well informed and rational.

[@stefanienicholas8071]

Grant Michael I highly highly recommend his work. I’m a Catholic convert from Orthodoxy and I wish I’d had his content at the time I was converting! Steve Ray’s Upon This Rock book is also something I highly highly recommend on this issue

[@grantmichael110]

@@stefanienicholas8071 I will have to check out the book! I am curious to talk to other EO to Catholic converts! What was your experience like?

[@stefanienicholas8071]

Grant Michael If you look up my name on KZbin there’s a good One Peter Five podcast where I talk more about it. :)

[@franciscovasquez9417]

Grant Michael Well if you are willing to read that book read the papacy by abbe guettee, before you make a decision . It converted me from Roman Catholicism to the Orthodox Church. I don’t agree with Jays actions at times and would love it if he was more humble but his talks on the theology of the Orthodox Faith are solid.

[@jackdaw6359]

@@stefanienicholas8071 great book

[@Islandmaninthemiddleoftheocean]

The last two hours were literally this: Erick- What kind of evidence I can use to convince you of the papacy. Jay- none, only coherency. Erick- ok, but if I can’t use the church fathers, saints, ecumenical councils nor local sinods what kind of evidence I can use. Jay- none , only coherency.

[@toyosioyejobi309]

Scriptures man Scriptures which are actual recorded history of christ and Christians

[@toyosioyejobi309]

ON MARY BEEN PRAISED AND VENERATED Luke 11:27-28 "As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed! But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”(This is Jesus downplaying the importance of mary in bringing him to earth) Jeremiah 7:18 "The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger" (in reference to mary been falsely called as queen of heaven shows the worship or reverence of these godess is ancient and pagan) ON PRAYER IN GENERAL Matthew 6:9 ""This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name" (this is Jesus teaching his disciples on prayer nowhere does he mention the importance of praying to his mother for graces or protection) Ephesians 6:18 "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people." (This is one of Paul's numerous teachings on prayer there's just no sign of rosary or mary) ON MARY BEEN SEEN AS MEDIATOR OR AS A NECCESSARY INTERCESSOR 1 timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus" Romans 8:26 " Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words" Hebrews 7:25 "Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." ON PRAYING TO DEAD PEOPLE AMD ADRESSING SAINTHOOD Romans 1:7 "To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (Shows who is a saint. Its not some process the Vatican makes. Its everyone who loves God and Beleives in Jesus christ) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Thessalonians 4:17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"(shows there is no one alive in any heaven. This is paul speaking years after the resurrection of christ. 1 Corinthians 15 talks about this too) ON WHAT IS NEEDED TO BE SAVED Romans 10:9 "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved"(this is wjat is needed baptism is the final confirmation. No where do we see you need to be baptized first to be saved or you need to be baptized by any specific church) Mark 16:16 "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned" (as you can see Beleiving is the emphasis and tue consequences of not Beleiving is the main topic not being baptized. When you Beleive tobbe baptized woukd be the least of problems) Matthew 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”(He gave this commission to his disciples that is all who were following him. Not to any church organization) ON THE MEANING OF THE CHURCH, WHAT THE CHURCH DID WHEN THEY MET AND CHURCH ADMINISTRATION 1 Corinthians12:13 "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-Jews or Greeks, slaves or free-and all were made to drink of one Spirit" (This talks about how one becames part of the body of christ and that is true his spirit. How does one receive the spirit, acts 2:38 "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy spirit") Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them" (This is quite clear) 1 Corinthians 14:26 "What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up." (This is what we should do when we come together we don't see this in the RCC and to be fair many protestant and orthodox churches as well, paul teaches we all have different gifts and different things to contribute to the growth of one another. Today the opposite is the case. Its usually one head man or gis subordinates in different branches of an organization calling the shots) Titus 1:5-6" For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient" 1 timothy 3:1-6" This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity"(requirements for being a bishop/elder of a local congregation. No where do we see that they must not be married or celibate. This is falsehood the Catholic Church forces on its clergy(whom they call priest btw) Ephesians 4:11 Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.(Like many of the protestant churches the Catholic Church barely or doesn't recognize these gifts. Instead it has its strange hierarchical structure of priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals and finally the pope who has a pagan title pontifux maximus and vicar of christ meaning representative of Christ. This is who Jesus said was his representative on earth. John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you" no one man is representative of christ only his spirit. The argument of Peter is forced in. Peter was a spokesman quite alright but he never assumed any authority as head of christs church that title belongs to Christ alone Collosians 1:17-18 "And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent" Theres little evidence peter was in rome and peter for sure wasn't called papa nor did he have a papal palace not did he decree papal bulls. These are all strange to the new testament church) Finally the churches in the new testament were local congregations with elders or bishops they did not have any subordination to rome or some pope somewhere. They only had subordination to Christ. The bishop or elder was appointed for guiding the people in the right direction.

[@toyosioyejobi309]

@@jzak5723 Well unfortunately sir. Christ never founded an institution. I beleive this is the point many people in maby denominations especially catholics get it wrong. They see the church as some organization with a ceo on top. If we are true to scriptures well realize that the church is a body of people(ecclesia... Called out ones) who have faith and trust in christ will christ himself as the head over his body reigning in every one of us though the spirit. Yes we come together in fellowship ot strengthen and encourage one another and yes in our locak congregations for administration purposes like paul teaches in 1 timothy we appoint a bishop/elder who is a great example and should be married(catholic church teaches otherwise) we see that these its just for administrative purposes with the elder not answering to some chief elder or archbishop and all the local congregations in unison answering to one congregation and their bishop in rome as pope. See the difference there Hope you see it. If you have any other questions feel free to ask

[@toyosioyejobi309]

@@jzak5723 Unfortunately you strawman me Every argument you've listed i didn't make and bever implied. We have actual Christians in scriptures ; the acts of the apostles and the letters of paul. Their example is enough. I do not support the many man made denominational church institutions or organizations we have(Catholic, orthodox, protestant, JW, mormon). All are man made attempts to recreate Christianity in their image that's why we see ego battles, we see articles if dogmas each Duffering and enforced on the people with severe consequences to keep people loyal and enslaved to them I realized that when someone challenged me to actually read the scriptures especially the new testament as an actual historical document and record of what my lord Jesus christ did and taught and what his immediate apostles taught Beleived and practiced. So you want to know how Christians met and organized themselves without denominations amd roman catholic institutions. Read the scriptures i gave to you earlier, read titus, 1 timothy, acts of the apostles read them in context without any external influence

[@toyosioyejobi309]

@@jzak5723 No disrepect but you have proved nothing except my point. The scriptures you quoted are clear you don't need my interpretation or your interpretation. Let's not distract ourselves here. 1St timothy 3 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; This is clearl. Also the argument was yhat the roman catholic church teaches otherwise. The Catholic Church says for you to be a "priest" i quote it beacause we don't see priests in the new testament you must be celibate. Priests caught not celibate are stripped of their priesthood. This is a masive contradiction to what we see in scriptures. I'm actually suprised you only picked on this point. I know why?? Like many humans you don't want to be wrong nobody wants to be wrong there's a strong attraction to what we have held and known, there is always fear of losing that identity. So you decided to pick on what you thought was your best argument which by the way isn't even right and doesn't change the point of the main argument. I sincerely understand was once in that boat i held on deeply to what i have been taught as doctrine strongly until i was challenged to actually read the new testament without any bias or any group's dogma or interpretation. Reading the new testament as an historical record of what christ and his apostles taught beleived and practiced you cannot just see roman catholicism or any man made denominational group or institution like orthodoxy protestantism, JW, MORMONISM there

[@jedidiahramiel6296]

I just watched this debate and I applaud Eric for his superb articulation and above all he showed sheer spiritual maturity in comparison to Jay Dyer.

[@ephesiansbrowne5982]

Jay was not prepared for this at all. He relied on little more than bullying and changed the subject entirely.

[@marks.3198]

It was an interesting conversation. Thanks to Michael, Erick, and Jay for making it happen.

[@weirdschool]

Jay clearly has an Ego the size of Jupiter 🙄 As an Orthodox of 13 years whose been through undergrad & graduate Seminary, I recognize the straw arguments and selective readings of church history the Orthodox use. I hope to be received into the Catholic Church very soon.

[@weirdschool]

Raymond Dunn thank you; I was received into the CC on December 29’th; so glad & thankful to be home.

[@qdp03]

Praise God! Have you been received yet with the whole COVID-19 craziness?

[@weirdschool]

Quoc Pham I was received on December 29’th 2019

[@qdp03]

PerennialThoughts Welcome home!

[@kylespectra6685]

Hello perennial thoughts. Is there a way I can contact you?

[@Nance726]

Pride is not a virtue, Jay. You’re anger is not in defense of Christ. It’s in defense of your ego.

[@sessylu80sboy]

You are obviously sharper Mr. Ybarra than Jay that's why someone like him gets easily irritated and evidently disturbed in reasoning with you. Keep up the good work for the Catholic Faith. God Bless you so much.

[@Wilantonjakov]

Jay would predictably claim that Ybarra didn't understand the premise (about Vatican 1) except that those parameters, in Vatican 1, including ex Cathedra statements and matters of faith and morals (ordinary magisterium) do allow for errors to be made. Such significant errors that antipopes like Honorius and Liberius could be condemned as anti-popes by the Catholic Church. He even admitted it at 2:29:58 during the debate.

[@joeylombaard1618]

Jay needs to take a chill pill and let other people talk.

[@NikolaAvramov]

In the debate he let Ybarra spam and stall for an hour after losing it. How long would you last?

[@tryhardf844]

@@NikolaAvramov Spam what? Jay is notorious for that.

[@NikolaAvramov]

@@tryhardf844 Ybarra spammed with pointless general insincere nice gestures, "I hear you, Jay", "We can talk about that some other time", and historical cases that were supposed to build his case through induction in order to avoid the obvious inconsistencies between Popes and their decrees. Dyer isn't notorious for those. He's notorious for rude insults, sticking to a narrow topic of his expertise on theology, "Chad" philosophy and its implicit social Darwinism and trash talk with innuendo and dubious relations with the Orthodox Church.

[@lionheart5078]

@@NikolaAvramov insincere by your standards, not by Gods. you are judging and God said not to do that. At the end of the day Orthodox have a basic problem with authority and have no answer for it. We Catholics have the Chair of Peter and live in relative clarity about what we believe. In the Orthodox church its essentially like anglicanism where i can find orthodox bishops who believe differently on a number of isses such as contraception and divorce or even the filioque, but they remain under this umbrella term of "Orthodoxy" that really doesnt stand for much. Thats why Russia and Greece are now in schism because they lack a basic understanding of authority. Much peace and love to my russian orthodox brothers.

[@eldermillennial8330]

@@lionheart5078 Orthodoxy is a CONFEDERATION of Bishops, or a Confederated Hierarchy. Our strength is PRECISELY because We don’t keep all our eggs in one jurisdictional basket. Ever since the Carolingian influence on the See of Rome led her to become a Top-Down monarchy, whenever Rome drifts from Orthodoxy, all under her are dragged along with her. In Orthodoxy, when someone becomes irrevocably heretical, we amputate to keep the gangrene from spreading. It’s also odd to make an example of Bart because he has been corrupted by the same globalist ideologies that have led Francis down the soft postmodernist path he has taken. Bugnini and his ilk, once they took control of the Papacy, (not as directly and quickly as they had hoped), ALL was lost and the rest is a 100 years of residual traditionalists in denial, futilely trying to hold the utterly impossible contradictions of Vaticans 2 AND 1 together, even as such infamous men as Cardinal Mahoney and that “African Queen” character refuse to excommunicate ANYONE like Pelosi or Biden, and allow people in general who are openly supporting infanticide and/or are in denial of the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Whenever 99% of Orthodox priests becomes aware of a parishioner who denies the Real Presence, or is openly supporting abortion, yet STILL dares to present himself for communion, he will be DENIED. “Repent or SIT DOWN”, and that is THAT. Oh, there’s some allegedly “Orthodox” parishes like the one Tom Hanks attends, (and had as parish priest the dad of that hack journalist, Stepenopolis) but they are among the few in America not resisting Bart’s extremism, embracing it even. They are no more Orthodox anymore than you are. I would never set foot in a Greek parish in that diocese. The truly Orthodox in that area near Hollyweird are all fleeing to Antioch, which, while not as confrontational as Moscow, WILL NOT BEND. They will go two hours out of their way to a true Orthodox parish than continue to go to the Greek parish down the street that has gone “woke”. Fortunately, this is about the only diocese in America that’s been having to do this. Bart is not popular. Trad Romans going out of their way to the Latin mass or Uniate Liturgies may claim to relate, but Novis Ordo IS the “law of the WHOLE land” and there’s nowhere truly for you to permanently escape to from it without becoming SOME kind of Sedevacantist. If you ultimately take THAT route, why trust ANY of the popes since at least 1204? (I prefer that date for the schism.) We Orthodox have treated the SECOND seat of Peter as empty since then. But we have other seats to turn to, Peter’s First, in my case.

[@TheFluteNewb]

Orthodox apologists need to denounce Dyer, not only is he the king of red herrings but his aggressive attitude is quite unbecoming.

[@ReasonandTheology]

Yet multiple bishops are now endorsing him and joining in on his material. Tells you alot about the state of Orthodoxy

[@MrJMB122]

@@ReasonandTheology Really because he attack the very christ like monk Fr Seraphim of Mull. I lost all my taste for him. FYI I am Orthodox Christian myself.

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

@@MrJMB122 Why did he attack Father Serafim? I love him. I can see why certain Christians who twist Christ to conform to their worldly right wing politics might be stirred to anger by some of what he says.

[@MrJMB122]

@@colmwhateveryoulike3240 That is exactly a when it comes to orthodoxy were still young country you see that online.

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

@@MrJMB122 Yeah. It makes me sad to see but that's exactly how the devil works. All worldly group identities have enough to appeal to good conscience but then divide and conquer.

[@atgred]

Jay’s attitude is very protestant, saying that we have changed the position of The Holy Spirit to that of the Pope!?! Even if he now considers himself a Russian Orthodox, his old protestant attitudes are still there towards the Catholic Church. The Early Church Fathers, who he has read, a-test to the primacy of the Bishop Of Rome, but as an ex-protestant, who will never accept The Papacy, he seems the only Church he could be part of with valid Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments could only be one that would continue the protestant tradition of anti-pope. Acts 15, Peter had the last word, the scripture says he “ROSE UP”, this is very important, because that meant he had authority and would speak authoritatively and he did.

[@NikolaAvramov]

"Pope vs. Anti-Pope" is a Western Christian thing. You're all stuck in this endless dialectic, while Orthodoxy has deeper roots than that 11th century heresy made official. In fact, its attitude is Wholistic. This is why Orthodox Christians avoide the capitalists vs. communists crap or liberals vs. nazis crap and gets accused of being all of those even though none of these shoes fit. There's a profound difference that you all just miss 'cause you're stuck in this dialectic indoctrination.

[@mileschristus8861]

@@NikolaAvramov they'll never understand it brother, they're too busy seeing reality through their narrow filter.

[@Kevin5279]

@@NikolaAvramov Lol you're blindly repeating Jay Dyer's hodgepodge without making any convincing point. If you have nothing of value to say then just stfu

[@bradleesargent]

@@jzak5723 Peter called the church council and the ideas of the subject to be decided by God enlightening Peter through divine locution

[@jmv8925]

"early church fathers attest to the primacy of the bishop of Rome" lmao nobody denies primacy, it's about the papal supremacy that is not present ☠️

[@yian43]

Man its embarrassing how bad Jay dyer got destroyed

[@Adamcatholic]

Dyer clearly lost every single argument, and turned it into throwing at Eric just about anything and see if it sticks, I felt like I'm watching muslim going on tiktok rant. Hats off to Eric for keeping it civil

[@jamesellis4035]

“Erick won cuz he woz not mean 😢” 😂😂

[@LorenzoMasterConnector]

@@jamesellis4035he clearly won bro cry us a river

[@Adamcatholic]

@@jamesellis4035 no only that, but first sign of losing is turning to personal attacks because you don't have answers, Dyer clearly had nothing to show except basic Internet arguments and 0 knowledge to address any Eric objections. After being slapped for each of these weak polemics it was clear he got frustrated so to "save face" he tried to intimidate Eric

[@jamesellis4035]

@@Adamcatholic look at my original comment on the comment section of the video

[@gaokede7041]

I enjoyed the debate. I am a Roman Catholic with sympathies with the EO. This is the first time I’ve seen an in-depth discussion of the issue and I agree with Erick. His presentation and support for the argument is quite convincing, despite most of us Catholics disliking Pope Francis and his behavior. I wish Jay the best

[@paulgundrum9059]

Pope Francis' current path to take RC down the sinful wide road proves the Orthodox view that no one Bishop should control the Church. Holy men should come together on equal ground to by consensus lead Christ's Church.

[@rody3199]

@@paulgundrum9059 Your argument holds no water. Until a pope binds the faithful to believe error (which will never happen because of Christ's promise and never has happened), then we can talk.

[@paulgundrum9059]

@@rody3199 So Pope Francis praying with Muslims isn't error? Previous Popes would call him apostate. Ending the Latin Mass? Again, previous Popes would call him a heretic. Is it possible that this has been happening since Vatican 2, but so slowly that devout RC's are like the frog in the pan being brought to boiling?

[@GB-jc8eo]

@@paulgundrum9059 Of course it is error, but he has not and cannot bind us to error. You clearly don't understand Papal Infallibility. Also the Pope has the right to abrogate the Latin Mass regardless of how imprudent it may be.

[@paulgundrum9059]

@@GB-jc8eo wow, You are a better man than I. Your devotedness to Papal infallibility takes more faith than following Christ. While Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever the Papacy is definitely changeable.

[@matyfish]

You can tell who is a father in this debate. Eric has the patience to get through difficult emotional discussions, Jay will have his patience tested if he becomes a father one day. Blessing to all of yall.

[@leonardpanjaitan]

Why the Eastern Orthodoxy in the world do not want a visible Head of the Church globally? Do you ever see a fold of sheep without a shepherd? Christ established only one Church to cover all the world, so it's logical we have one shepherd globally as a visual head of her Church while Jesus ascended to the Heaven. That's why we need a Pope to be our leader for both East and West. Why is so hard to accept Jesus' decision.?

[@user-di5rm9ee1p]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qWGkqKhqa7OKgLc

[@LPSCaitelyn]

I think my only issue is, why did it take 1000 years after Jesus to make these changes and elect a pope and add the Filioque? Why does the church keep evolving over time even now? Wouldn’t the apostles teach us since the beginning everything we needed to know?

[@Jonathynn]

Jay just kept rambling about paradigms and not answering hard evidence for Catholicism.

[@wp7896]

'hard evidence' lol

[@NikolaAvramov]

@@rohan7224 Irrelevant all the same. You can't just break dogma and creed and then say "I found a 6th century writing that says I can so I must've been right" and consider it hard evidence. Well, you can, but that's literally heretical behavior. The definition of it, in fact. Pretentious cherrypicking.

[@mileschristus8861]

@@rohan7224 hard evidence, like not a single one of the 7 ecumenical councils stating that the bishop of Rome is the vicar of Christ and he has infallibility.

[@Jonathynn]

@@wp7896 yes, hard evidence

[@christsavesreadromans1096]

@@mileschristus8861An eastern bishop seemed to think Rome has primacy over all the other churches due to its superior origin, and that all other churches by necessity must listen. Against Heresies Book 3 Chapter 3.

[@yian43]

why didn't Jay dyer just say he would never accept any evidence at all that Rome has the authority it claims

[@NikolaAvramov]

The supposed evidence is very dubious and he openly listed forgeries it's all based on. Just because the man is a fraud and a douchebag doesn't mean he hasn't stated this.

[@TheChunkyCrusader]

@@NikolaAvramov but the whole point of the question Erick posed is so that he knows what evidence he thinks proves his case based on that criteria. You can then discuss and reject/accept the evidence.

[@Silverhailo21]

That would be too straight forward and honest for him.

[@TheChunkyCrusader]

@@Silverhailo21 Exactly. I watched the whole Jay convo and was literally cringing because of his dishonesty

[@Silverhailo21]

@@TheChunkyCrusader Same. The dude is a fraud and knows it. Notice how he freaked out when he was asked about the date of his "conversion". Dude couldn't even wait two seconds to hear Eric out, immediately started counter signaling because his track record is absolute garbage.

[@petercooke96]

I'm so thankful for you guys debating I just think it's brilliant we got these heavy weight debates going on. Please debate about what st Leo the great wrote surely he said his role was from st Peter and divinely instituted.

[@MrWoaaaaah]

This was painful. Dyer spends ages rudely admitting that nothing from the first 1000 years of church history could be used to convince him that he is wrong about the papacy. Genuinely baffling.

[@NikolaAvramov]

Ybarra's case is painfully dubious.

[@commissary4196]

@@NikolaAvramov just a comment spam nothing comment

[@boochparadise]

I think he did a poor job explaining it, but I understood him to say it's basically asking to prove a negative. To prove papal infallibility you need a list of every ex cathedra statement ever made, and to prove that it is correct, and to prove the permeance of the office you'd need a list of every pope and proof that none of them were heretics.

[@MrWoaaaaah]

@@boochparadise I'm not sure that it is proving a negative. The catholic claim about the papacy is a positive claim.

[@boochparadise]

@@MrWoaaaaah You can kind of phrase it either way. To say the pope is always infallible when speaking ex cathedra is the same as saying the pope is NEVER fallible when speaking ex cathedra.

[@williamofbaskerville359]

Although Erik’s points didn’t convince me, his behavior did, like a true christian gentleman. God bless you.

[@christianlacroix5430]

Does the bahaviour of mormons convince you about mormonism ?

[@williamofbaskerville359]

@Jay Dire Better than posing in front of an inverted cross and supporting an occult (Wiccan) musician, don‘t you think?

[@williamofbaskerville359]

@Jay Dire You posing as Jay Dire, well do some research before commenting.

[@lionheart5078]

@@GeorgeK1410 lol stop making up stuff, he comes off as a christian who treats people with respect and doesnt act like a child. Jay behaved like a 5 year old who needs a spanking.

[@raymondmurillo]

@Jason H you know Jay was a Catholic for a decade right?

[@Bogey-man73]

I'm surprised Jay is even a Christian.. They will know us by our arrogance - Dyer 1:1

[@squirrelknight4878]

This was painful to watch.

[@jamesharper151]

2 morons

[@theticoboy]

It was. Not sure why Jay’s supporters are so insulting.

[@JeanRausisYT]

For anyone wondering, this is the short version: Jay: If you're right I need to see the evidence Erick: ok what about you, can you show me the evidence you're right? Jay: no... why? that only applies to you, I know I'm right Erick: whatever here is the evidence (proceeds to cite the whole Church) Jay: I don't accept these Erick: ok what kind of evidence do you accept? Jay: If I saw one I could tell you but I didn't see any

[@FightFilms]

Sounds like Matt Dillahunty

[@vibrantphilosophy]

@@FightFilmsI was just about to say lol

[@richardradice3391]

Jay can't stop talking for 5 seconds or stop bringing up V2 for 5 seconds

[@NikolaAvramov]

'cause Ybarra's audience obsessed over Vatican Two.

[@frankperrella1202]

Jay Dyer is smart but he seems like he wants to just argue God bless CATHOLIC PRIDE world wide 🙏⛪🛐 Jay got whipped By Eric Yarbarrra 💯🗝️🗝️ keep up the good work i have a Family in my parish that's Ex Eastern Orthodox that's Catholic now & i love Dr James Likudius his books that's the books that helped the Dracoulus Family Convert to the Catholic Church. God bless 🗝️🗝️💯 Catholic

[@scottwatterson5345]

If I had to pick a winner based on fruits of the Holy Spirit, Erick is in the right. Jason, I will be praying for you. Your soul seems to be so bitter.

[@jamesharris3972]

Jay doesn't want to dialogue or debate. He wants to argue.

[@tigerahitman6828]

An argument, yes, he wants an actual argument

[@dariocastro-lopez3589]

Jay didn’t realize it but he was arguing that Erick HAD to strawman himself and defend papal infallibility ONLY in the way that JAY deemed acceptable and not in the opposing sides strongest version of the argument. But yet he called Erick “not a good faith actor”. This is exactly how the dawah Muslims argue. This is exactly how the dawah Muslims say that Christians are “running” from the argument. When it in actuality they are the ones that don’t want to hear the other side’s argument.

[@stealth8294]

Just a reminder that Dyer never tried to convert his friend who was into wicca

[@stealth8294]

@@flisom Yes, i guarantee to you that what i said about Jay Dyer is true, how so? he said it himself to his public kzbin.info/www/bejne/joOvgISLo9xgfLs (1:44:51)

[@Val.Kyrie.]

You do know conversion takes more time and subtlety and effort than smashing someone over the head with a bible, right?

[@nwg02]

@@flisom why did you jump to the pope lol

[@EmberBright2077]

About 2 hours in Jay says outright that he will never be convinced to Erick's argument. He really could have saved everyone a lot of time if he had led with that.

[@Theparishioner_]

What’s so frustrating about debating orthodoxy is that you can show them evidence from their own patriarch and their own saints to disprove their claims and all they have in rebuttal is “we don’t believe patriarchs are without error” it’s absurd

[@johnooley6454]

I am not Catholic nor Orthodox. Been studying, have attended and listened to both types of Churches, podcasts in accordance to the scriptures in hopes of finding a church to be a part of. Though I will say there are things I can't quite agree with yet or at all with the Catholic church.. I see more judgment and attack from the Orthodox Church that makes it hard to see Christ at work. Not trying to be judgmental just what I have experienced in many attempts to understand both sides.

[@user-nn3ox5rr9e]

What have you decided, brother?

[@pavelcrestin1]

Someone's behaviour does not mean that his belief system is wrong or not. If a hindu was nice as Erick, I wouldn't become hindu. Just out of curiosity, given the contradictions that post Vatican II has compared to pre Vatican II, are you still a catholic or are you considering to enter Orthodoxy?

[@Emily-pl9tg]

I'd simply ask which church has covered up years and years and hundreds of abuses by clergy towards children. Which church had its monasteries shut down in Mexico because they were found to be places where monks were fornicating with nuns and murdering their offspring? Or the indigenous schools the catholic church ran in Canada where so many children disappeared. I'll wait..I'm sure that's the true church. What is that saying? You shall know them by their fruit. The fruit is rotten, from its lower most branches to the top. I forgot that there were never any Pope's with known harems and who conducted orgies in Vatican City. Silly me.🙄

[@semprequeleroscomentariose8916]

This debate should be organized, with definite times for each one. It was supposed to be a civilized and serious debate and you had a pub discussion.

[@ReasonandTheology]

Felipe Stancioli we offered a formal debate as you can see towards the end of the video. He has declined.

[@ReasonandTheology]

Felipe Stancioli also there wasn’t supposed to be anything because we were doing a video and jay decided to come into the com box and asked to join impromptu. I asked can we do times and both wanted a casual non timed conversation.

[@ReasonandTheology]

Felipe Stancioli lastly we have offered jay the chance to do a formal debate on several occasions even before this video and each time he backs out. He wants unmoderated videos where he can over talk and jump all over the place.

[@semprequeleroscomentariose8916]

​ Reason and Theology when i say that was supposed to be a civilized and serious debate, i'm saying because of the very topic. But i understand the circunstances that it is happening. Anyway is a great initiative and i appreciate it, thanks.

[@ReasonandTheology]

Felipe Stancioli thanks for watching. Keep visiting the channel because we have more guests coming on with some good topics.

[@carlosalegria4776]

I thank God for this debate, at first I was feeling some doubts about my Catholic faith when it came to EO but after seeing this I'm very much secure in the Church.

[@rambles1789]

Eric was in slow mo and Dyer was on fast forward lol

[@elijahyasi5858]

Virtue is calm. The opposite is panicky.

[@megusultracool]

@@elijahyasi5858 apparently virtue gets extra calm when they've been argumentatively cornered.

[@elijahyasi5858]

@@TheRealRealOK what would virtue look like in that situation?

[@AdHominus]

@@elijahyasi5858 Once again proving that Catholics cannot think except by absolute dialectics.

[@Wilantonjakov]

@@AdHominus Do you speak Nonsense? Because unfortunately that's a language I can't understand.

[@albertdevasahayam6781]

When I was listening to Jay Dyer's presentations in his channel and reading his article on the five simple reasons against the Papacy, I felt shaken and disturbed. I felt my faith in the Papacy was crumbling. Then luckily I saw this debate between Erick and Dyer. Erick restored my faith in the Papacy though I admit there must be a lot of grey areas in the history of the Papacy. As I have always believed that the Catholic faith is based on reason and logic apart from the Bible and Tradition, I was proved true by Erick from the style of his debate. On the other hand, most Protestants when they speak on any subject related to the Bible or Christian faith, they assume an air of infallibility. Dyer sounded very much like that, that his knowledge, his understanding, his conclusions, etc. were infallible. No one can debate with a person when that person assumes such conceited air of infallibility.

[@NikolaAvramov]

That's Dyer's job. This is why his KZbin channel is sitting pretty and why he's getting that sweet Alex Jones publicity. He has a semblance of legitimacy 'cause he's citing serious dogma. And then he goes and endorses criminals, sweettalks Nazis, preaches Pagan crap and hangs out with Satanists. Orthodox Christians don't do any of that. A part of his job is covering doubt in the Papacy by acting like a jackass 'cause most modern people are conditioned since childhood to drop any logical notion that comes with arrogant or rude behavior. Orthodox Christian officials behave almost the opposite of him. He's out there so you wouldn't hear serious arguments that make sense without being able to cop out and say "his behavior is horrible". An Orthodox Christian, for one, doesn't hide his church and doesn't go around debating without a publically verifiable blessing. And if he's rude in public to anyone - the blessing's revoked immediately and officially.

[@jasonroberts2249]

"My faith in the papacy"--this phrase sums up the entire problem right there. To be Orthodox you have to be Orthodox--to be Catholic you have to be a papist. Catholics have been largely reduced to apologists for the office of the papacy, to the detriment of their own orthodoxy.

[@albertdevasahayam6781]

@@jasonroberts2249 Faith in Jesus also includes faith in the Papacy. Jesus did not establish a Church without a visible leadership under Peter. Without the Papacy as it evolved in the Church from the very beginning, Christianity would have died a natural death after the Ascension of Jesus. The Christians who did not accept the Papacy have splintered into thousands of groups. I am glad that the Catholic Church is held together by the Papacy.

[@hippios]

Conceited air of infallibility huh… the irony of that comment goes over you

[@albertdevasahayam6781]

@@hippios No, sir. I have nothing to be conceited about. If I appear to be infallible, it is only because the Catholic Church is infallible in her teachings. No other denomination can claim such infallibility to teach authoritatively.

[@yourfavoritesteve]

Erick, you debated well against a narcissist. I found Jay a while back, listened to a bit of his material, got turned off by his prideful rhetoric, and quickly decided to stop listening to him...till this. This confirmed my prior decision. Thank you for your patience and respectfulness. You came out far ahead in this debate.

[@ratio518]

This is awesome

[@CPATuttle]

Papal infallibility. I’d point to the miracle of ‘Our Lady of Lourdes’ where Mary identified herself as “I am the immaculate conception“ which was four years after the dogma was declared by the Pope.

[@pavelcrestin1]

My question would be :" Wouldn't it be great to have a miracle of Mary stating herself what the Pope set as dogma 4 years before?" Why did it take so many hundreds of year to find out the immaculate conception was true, and then miracoulously, Mary showed up to restate it? Why isn't this miracle prior to any decision?

[@CPATuttle]

@@pavelcrestin1sure. The same can be said about a lot of things

[@pavelcrestin1]

@@CPATuttle Immaculate Conception... 1. 3 saints of your Church deny it: Augustine, Bonaventura and D'Aquino 2. If it is a dogma of Vrigin Mary, why did it take so long? 3. The only reason dogmas appear is when there is a stringent conflict on the issue and it has to be settled. It wasn't the case for that then 4. With this dogma, you make Virgin Mary from the Great Example, the Great Exception. Why is that? Well, because she didn't start the race from the Start line. She had an impossibility to sin, therefore, nothing she made is worthy of praise. It's like winning the lottery but having to choose between winning tickets. Immaculate Conception is like cheating. Therefore, she is neither a human like us, nor a God like her Son. The real merit is when you start with the same measure and you achieve something great. 5. If God has been conceived on that specific date and the erase of the original sin happened ar that moment or before, why did He decide to erase the original sin prior to his Conception and Birth, like 15 years prior? It makes no sense.

[@tigerahitman6828]

Lofton doesn't debate for a reason, its a convenient tactic to make videos without any pushback against the claims being made

[@andrewoconnor9819]

Better Papism than Caesaropapism - especially when that Caesar is Vladimir Putin.

[@markrome9702]

Jay doesn't seem to have a good grasp on papal infallibility. I don't think it is because he is ignorant of what the Catholic Church teaches but rather, like so many Protestants, he puts his own spin on it and requires everything to be proven to refute his incorrect view. At least he admits he is reading his own Orthodox viewpoint into history which makes it easy for him to reject any Eastern Fathers which supported Papal supremacy and infallibility.

[@markrome9702]

Erick repeated Jay's points to clarify, especially around juridical synodal enlightenment of truth to the Christian, to say that Catholics believe the same thing. Jay went on to attack a straw man of what Catholics believe and teach. He thinks he understands what the Catholic Church teaches but attacking a straw man is just weak. Him losing his cool was not cool. That usually happens when someone is defeated.

[@NikolaAvramov]

He was a Roman Catholic that was studying it all for 12 years on his way to becoming a monk. He red Denzinger's Catholic dogma twice. Most people haven't. Erick was manipulative and relied on the audience short attention spans and inability to see platitudes as deliberate smokescreen. The "straw man" he mentioned is still true. It's not a strawman if you don't misquote and make something up. Dyer's a douchebag and a fraud, but Ybarra isn't that better.

[@Spsz6000]

@@NikolaAvramov lol you have too many comments blaring of Copium like the average dyerite 🤡🤡🤡🤡

[@TheChunkyCrusader]

@@NikolaAvramov I read Denzinger twice bro....you can't refute me bro..... like I actually give a single crap if you've read it twice.

[@paulgundrum9059]

I would argue that Eastern Orthodox know the subject of "papal infallibility" better than almost all Roman Catholics, as Orthodoxy has spent 1000 years refuting it.

[@josealzaibar5274]

And another thing: Jay's absolute refusal to simply come out and say what his required standard of evidence would be to proof the papacy is further evidence that, at least on public venues, he has no interest of engaging in dialogue or trying to find out the truth, all he wants to do is "win", which is why it's impossible for him to say: "this is something that would defeat my and the Orthodox positions", God forbid Eric or someone else might actually pull the trigger and meet that burden of proof for him in public.

[@NikolaAvramov]

He explicitly said that he considers coherency to be a deciding factor.

[@josealzaibar5274]

@@NikolaAvramov Yes, after basically being "pinned down". I was commentating as I was listening and this comment was made before he said it.

[@NikolaAvramov]

@@josealzaibar5274 Which makes him more honest, 'cause Ybarra would say "I understand that, Eric. We can talk about that in some other debate. But here's what I want to know" and then repeat his argument and pretend not to have heard the other guy's argument. Which he did dozens of times.

[@josealzaibar5274]

@@NikolaAvramov Did you see the post debate?

[@NikolaAvramov]

@@josealzaibar5274 Which one?

[@DigitalLogos]

'Presuppositions of the presupposition of the presuppositions'

[@yian43]

Jay dyer debate strategy= force what he thinks you believe on you so he can beat up that argument he's telling you you believe

[@Augustinianismus]

Eric really has the patience of a saint..

[@dwong9289]

@@TrollDemN00bs Matthew 15:11 “What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

[@dboan6847]

Erick, you have the patience of a Saint.

[@b.c.7741]

More like the arrogance of a Pope

[@b.c.7741]

Not more patience than his audience, I've never heard someone talk so slow and unenthusiastic

[@miamisoccer2128]

Brendan Shea Connelly How he sounds to YOU is subjective and irrelevant.

[@b.c.7741]

@@miamisoccer2128 Subjective and Irrelevant merely to you, which by virtue of your own admission, also confirms subjectivism and irrelevance applies to you as well.

[@ryanpope7891]

Why can't Jay communicate his view on the actual topic in a clear, coherent way, without resorting to jumpiness or insults? I don't get it.

[@iamcatholic_]

1:49:44 is an all-time classic moment in the continued Schism of 1054!

[@enslavedbytruth]

The sect of JayDyerism is troubling....Pray for those under the spell of delusion

[@Palleoge]

😎

[@anothercat1300]

Being able to discern Truth doesn't require us to admire the truth teller as perfect. Jay Dyer has been a tremendous help in understanding philosophy history and theology for many people. The delusion comes from believing a single man can account for all things. Have you seen the Catholic's infallible Pope recently? You can make any argument you want, calling Francis infallible is the same delusion as anyone who thinks Jay Dyer is infallible. Both Francis and Jay have said true things but both have been tremendously incorrect about other things. They are just men after all and will be judged before God as men. The only truly infallible one is God and his Incarnation. He is the Beginning and the End after all. Believing a man titled Pope is perfect as Christ is perfect while history shows us tyranny and degeneracy is commonplace in the Papic authority is so damaging to the witness those claiming to be Christian have on the world. People see Catholics as a den of pedophiles and see their sister Churches found in Protestantism as out of touch and cruel or spineless or both. This will not stand on the day of judgement. God have mercy on us.

[@anothercat1300]

@Jay Dire So if a Mormon Child is being abused by their family and only has prayer, they can't be heard due to the heretical dogma they're under? Don't assume you know God.

[@anothercat1300]

@Harley Mann I'm sure many people (like yourself) are incapable of discerning truth from those who only see part of it... That's everyone by the way. I don't believe Jay can account for all things. Haha he's just a man and you're just some avatar on KZbin. You can bare false witness to my position if you'd like... However the Bible says "we will know them by their fruit" and this is the truth, read history it doesn't lie (which is probably why you won't read it). Roman Catholics are the ones who are deceived. Their spiritual Hubris has ended the lives of millions in their "Holy Wars" and the Pope's historical degeneracy with pedophilia scars his "infallible" witness to the world (infallible means incapable of making mistakes or being wrong). If you try to defend Catholicism you defend it from a position of weakness. You can call me deceived and just dismiss me if you like but I can still yell to the heavens that the Pope accepts the "civil unions" of homosexuals and has used God's name to justify the destruction of millions of Jews, Muslims and Orthodox at Jerusalem.

[@anothercat1300]

@Jay Dire So there's exceptions to your rule. It's funny how exceptions tend to appear when rules don't hold up. Why doesn't that apply to your idol the Pope? The Truth is Jesus Christ who is the Godhead of the Church not the Pope.

[@GB-jc8eo]

If you want to see how bad at debating Jay Dyer is, watch for 5 minutes from 2:00:00 or 2:11:38

[@icanfartloud]

Someone needs to tell Jay to stay in one position of distance from his mic. He keeps bouncing back and forth and the sound goes up and down. Following Jay is simply irritating. I'm listening with headphones and can't hear all levels from him very clearly.

[@freda7961]

Jay is such a douche here (and in most cases, he doesn’t make sense, and he’s all over the place). And even with all the interruptions, I think Ybarra did a great job here, intellectually... and emotionally. He’s very patient, it’s amazing.

[@Tedworth50]

Jay Dyer lost this debate, doesn't know how to have a respectful discussion and lacks charity. He is a very bad ambassador for Orthodoxy. Erick makes me proud to be Catholic.

[@Golden_writes550]

Knowledge puffs up. Some may win an argument but loose the battle... Though I see Jay Dyer has lost in this argument, but there is no Love behind his demeanor and tone and appeals.

[@sami5to6]

Jay is disturbed. His Ego has caused his own demise.

[@AnphongBristol]

I had to listen to this in 1.75x speed. Thanks Jay, Erick, Church Fathers, and moderators for the post as I waited 3 yrs for this to happen.

[@TheCleanTech]

Eric displayed virtue. I was very edified by his conduct. IMO, Jay hasn’t fully detoxed from sedevacantisim yet , i think that mindset is a bigger hurdle for him then OE I don’t mean that as an insult , that is just my personal observation. ,

[@Spsz6000]

This is absolutely true. He thinks exactly like i did when i was sede.

[@stratongarrard8333]

I am more and more convinced that being involved with comment section debate is inherently uncharitable -- thanks Jay.

[@Lay-Man]

I thought something valuable would come up, the only thing that happened was that I lost my concentration

[@jamesshaw6455]

Jay comes across as super dishonest.

[@jamesshaw6455]

@@TLrivers Because he plays dress up as a club owner circa 1985 Miami.

[@Evil_Florida]

Ive never noticed how much Dyer flails his arms around like an idiot whenever he is explaining his BS till now

[@realnigga722]

not an argument

[@Evil_Florida]

sdgdghfsdf gfdgfjghkghjk never never intended it as an argument

[@realnigga722]

@@Evil_Florida Cope

[@juandoming6688]

So Sola scriptura sounds based now.

[@derkleriker100]

FINALLY!

[@ivanapesic3194]

When Jay shows us that the heaven hosts are not firmly structured according to the will of the Holy Trinity having one, the only one visible Head, the King Christ, all the angels and all of the creation in perfect harmony with His lead, only then one can say that the "papacyst" Catholic Church is wrong. God bless to all

[@javierduenasjimenez7930]

@@ivanapesic3194 Welcome to the protestant mindset lol

[@arminebner2846]

Jay is not giving historic evidence for his argument on the restoration of Athanasius. It may be just that his only talking about a later much development in the Orthodox Church. I do not know if he realizes that he is speaking from Silence. He lost the argument and unprepared.

[@tomasomaonaigh7659]

Not taking sides on the debate, yet can any Roman Catholics honestly say that the present Pope is truly Catholic?

[@ReasonandTheology]

Yes. He is. Don’t be deceived by the neo Protestants who claim to be catholic and lie about the pope daily.

[@tomasomaonaigh7659]

How is Rome faithful to the teachings of the Fathers? The present Pope is rewriting what ought not be changed. Well, maybe Vatican 1 and 2 have already done that?

[@EmberBright2077]

​@@tomasomaonaigh7659 How so?

[@joshuatcharles]

Unfortunately, I’ve seen Jay behave this way often. This sort of behavior exhibits the danger of ordering love to knowledge, rather than knowledge to love. Love must undergird every genuine intellectual enterprise. Jay doesn’t seem to get this.

[@Electricianservicesoc]

I’m not a catholic or Eastern Orthodox. That being said. What Jay doesn’t understand is this…plain and simple, because you can interrupt somebody regardless of worldview, that doesn’t win a argument. Jay doesn’t understand how to debate, he thinks if I interrupt and spew “my worldview over yours” “therefore I win the debate”… anybody could shred Jay in a debate by simply letting him talk and pointing out his flaws in logic and theology. It’s too simple. Jay’s victims are those who have to answer his questions going down his rabbit trail. Don’t fall victim to a forked tongue devil who wants to control your thinking, Gods Word is for everyone who believes plain and simple

[@Wilantonjakov]

Hey thanks but you should be Catholic, just sayin haha

[@Electricianservicesoc]

@@Wilantonjakov Lol that was funny

[@fortunisko1657]

Michael Lofton, in retrospect, man you were needed as a much more active moderator especially on Dyer's attitude. At some point Dyer needed to be told to take five minute break and come back in a better frame of mind. You had no obligation, moral or therwise, to put up with his immature performances. Erick was so patient and very generous both with his time and his active listening that it was incumbent on Dyer to reciprocate. When he repeatedly failed to do so, there really was not much point in continuing without at least imposing a break with conditions on his return. Thank you for keeping this encounter on the public record and for making the effort to attain a constructive use of time and effort for all involved, including us in your audience. Thank very much.

[@Piranesi-gc8gn]

I know that being in a debate can be hard and disorienting, but I have to say that I agree on jays point here. There is only one papacy so it is not that much of a stress to say that infallibility and the argument from jurisdiction goes together. That thread wasnt refuted or explored too much either. And I respect also the cool kept on the other side.

[@clo8862]

You ignored the entire point of the debate and kept bias towards jay dyer and his pompous and rude arrogant ways of debating on his eastern orthodox stance . Go rewatch the debate all over again until you get it .

[@Piranesi-gc8gn]

@@clo8862 I did see it back then. I just wasnt taken by the rudeness.

[@charliek2557]

The thumbnail for this is still the best 😂😂😂

[@fr.sundayikpe2096]

Erick you are just on point. Jay I can understand the difficulty in sustaining your position. Jay the foundation of your arguments is faulty and hence cannot be sustained. The only way out for you is to digress and you did it very well. Jay it’s always good to stick to the topic of debate. Anyway you are a good debator

[@TDawg736]

Vatican II was a pastoral council. It didn't deal with dogma. Read the opening address to the Council.

[@bennigan88]

I have to put Erick on 1.5x but it's worth it!

[@Nance726]

Jay wasn’t here for a dialogue in good faith. He came to pick a fight and defend- not his Faith, rather to defend his ego. I really wanted to hear and understand his point, he let himself be the more important than The Faith.

[@TheChunkyCrusader]

Lol Jay was moving from topic to topic. At least stay on a topic for a while and not interrupt every 5 seconds.

[@athanasioscyril6467]

He cannot do that because he is wrong. Plain and simple

[@athanasioscyril6467]

He knows that He is gonna lose the debate if he doesn't interrupt and change topics rapidly

[@TheChunkyCrusader]

@@athanasioscyril6467 I agree with you 100%. It went from 6th ecumenical council to Vatican II To Mortalium Animos (related) to 8th ecumenical council (869).

[@TheChunkyCrusader]

@@Numenorean921 that's what made me cringe so often.

[@jordanp3470]

It took so many centuries to universally ratify Christ’s full divinity, yet Jay expects Vatican 1 lingo to be precisely defined in the 1st century, signed off by all the bishops and talked about by every possible saint in existence. Even then he’ll say the fathers aren’t infalliable and the individual canons aren’t infalliable

[@andoylanggid]

As a Catholic from a far off region away from Europe, I am very grateful that I have met the Second Person of the Trinity and have a Church that guides and supports me. If it weren't for those Catholic missionaries probably I will be out headhunting, and Orthodox would still be nitpicking over all the issues. Say what you will about the Protestants, but they have the same willingness to offer their lives that other may know Christ.

[@pavelcrestin1]

Just out of curiosity, given the contradictions that post Vatican II has compared to pre Vatican II, are you still a catholic or are you considering to enter Orthodoxy?

[@clo8862]

@@pavelcrestin1quit spamming the same comment . I tried orthodoxy and it wasnt for me one church treated me like a stranger and pushed me to the corner of the room and the russian orthodox church simply bragged about who was a cradle orthodox in the church and were fascinated when they got in Eastern European Orthodox members moving to the parish but also shoved me aside for more “orthodox” members even though i was a serious inquirer . The priest was nice however but no one including him gave me a good reason why catholicism is false .

[@TWICEfan3125]

The fact that Jay would call someone an idiot in public debate is a major turnoff for me.

[@ReasonandTheology]

He does worse. He called one guy he debated a f***ing retar* during the debate which is still up on his channel.

[@paulgundrum9059]

When Polycarp met Marcion the heretic in Rome in the second century Marcion asked if Polycarp had heard of him. Polycarp answered "Yes, I know you very well, you firstborn son of the devil." I think when speaking with those who teach falsehood/heresy then all manners can go out the window.

[@DanielWard79]

@@paulgundrum9059 who's the heretic? Is it the Protestant Baptist pretending to be Orthodox? Or the Catholic?

[@paulgundrum9059]

@@anthonymarchetta8796 true, that was Jay responding to months of them refusing to debate him formally. So he showed up and made his points.

[@paulgundrum9059]

While not pretty by our standards, Jay was much nicer than the Church Fathers who said worse about those who teach falsely.

[@justanobserver8617]

I'm not a Christian and was really lost for a lot of this debate, but, I understood what Jay was saying about the paradigm issue, and Erick didn't understand it at all, which was a bit frustrating. Jay seems to argue that the Orthodox position is a coherentist sort of view on epistemology based on overall paradigmatic worldviews , rather than an infinitist or foundationalist. That's very interesting. Although, it would be helpful to see where exactly this is taught in the Orthodox tradition, just so I can understand exactly how this is understood. I would be very surprised if the eastern Patristics were actually talking about these kinds of things; I normally associate this kind of thinking with the pre modern philosophers (Spinoza, Hegel, etc). Very excited for Jay's debate with Dillhunty.

[@Math_oma]

You're right that it's a peculiar feature of modern philosophy. You should also check out Fr. Schooping's book to see how disconnected even St. Irenaeus is from these modern philosophers you note and how weak and limited in the Patristic sampling the author's argument is in this book. St. Irenaeus also gives an (admittedly underdeveloped) argument from causality (paragraph 4 "The Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching"), absolutely contradicting the claim he was a presuppositionalist in the likes of the Calvinist tradition, e.g. Van Til. The ancients, as a whole, do not understand reality in this way.

[@fffff4377]

@@Math_oma Another Church of Dyer debunk, now in the Theology section, lol.

[@jpmisterioman]

@@JayDyer Keep repeating the mantra, bruh. "Muh Pope in the mosque". Maybe you will see the light that Al Ghazali created to get in direct contact with god, borrowed by Palamas.

[@Math_oma]

@@JayDyer I've read or am currently working through all the materials you recommend, which is how I know they don't say what you claim they say, for example the synodical letter of St. Sophronius and the Sixth Ecumenical Council, and Fr. Schooping's book above plus my own studies on De Potentia Dei about 'Rabbi Moses' along with the writings of St. John Damascene. I encourage others to check your sources. I simply don't know what you're talking about by 'personal dirt' and I will gladly apologize but I don't know what exactly you're accusing me of.

[@economistadaunicamp1624]

@@JayDyer Calm down, bruh. Lay down the LSD and realize that this was already debunked. Nobody cares about your UZI word salad. The documentation is clear. St John of Damascus didn't defend that. That's a very particular Lossky point of view in trying to find a justification for Palamas "orthodox doctrines"(In Lossky paradigm) in the earlier fathers. Only the souls you're leading astray believes in you.

[@greypilgrim1649]

Such a shame this guy Jay is a smart sharp guy but totally argues in bad-Faith and invalidates his cause. Saintly patience from Erick

[@RagnarRockFinder]

Wow, Jay is a disrespectful debater who can't stand for an opponent to make a grounded logical argument. He tells you what you believe and then declares you wrong, then a liar when you try to correct him. He did not make a good showing for Eastern Orthodox in this video. Way too emotional and irrational.

[@NikolaAvramov]

Dyer's selling Paganism, endorsing criminals, sweettalking Nazis, flashing the sign of the horns, and selling snake oil in shady circles. Orthodox Christians don't do that. He's fake. All the same - this is a good video to figure out how manipulative Ybarra is.

[@dwong9289]

Let us pray for Jay’s conversion.

[@olgakarpushina492]

He used to be a Catholic. Somehow, you didn't keep him there, guys.

[@Lay-Man]

@@olgakarpushina492 And that's the catholic church's fault?

[@olgakarpushina492]

@@Lay-Man well, not fault per se. But apparently hoping he will go back is strange at best.

[@Lay-Man]

@@olgakarpushina492 Yeah... Interesting name mate, if you don't mind where are you from? Lol

[@olgakarpushina492]

@@Lay-Man Canada

[@sherridelorme4815]

Jay is like a defiant teenager on drug’s! He’s an embarrassment

[@jameswilson8946]

Jay is basically a Protestant that couldn’t justify critiquing Catholics from that point of view so he moved to EO to have a more solid foundation, even though he’s still not right.

[@ReasonandTheology]

Not so sure EO has a more solid foundation anymore.

[@ReasonandTheology]

@@Giorginho I've done several shows on why I think this is so.

[@paulgundrum9059]

I would humbly suggest that anyone can read the Patristic Fathers (Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, etc) and will clearly see NO MENTION of Papal supremacy or that the Bishop of Rome was the "authority". In fact one could discover that Polycarp travelled to Rome as Bishop of Smyrna and disagreed with the Pope (representing the other Eastern Churches) over the date of Easter/Pascha. Rather than declare anathema or excommunicate him, Pope Anicetus and Polycarp just "agreed to disagree". Here is a plain example of a Saint of the Roman Catholic Church openly in defiance of the dogma of Papal Supremacy from the second century. Eric argues that the Church "always" showed the aspect of Papal Supremacy even if it wasn't written specifically, but in this case Bishop Polycarp either didn't get the memo or didn't know/care. Was Pope Anicetus being magnanimous in not damning Polycarp to hell, OR did the thought not cross his mind because he didn't have the Supremacy to do so?

[@stopwesterndegeneracy1194]

Pretty much nailed it - a lot of these new age EO are just Protestants trying to found more grounding in their arguments.

[@javierduenasjimenez7930]

@@ReasonandTheology Can you name any of those shows? I'm interested. Do you have a playlist of them?

[@thebugman6864]

I love seeing all the butt hurt people in the comment section saying how mean Jay was instead of why he is wrong. Like this isn't an Alcholol anonymous session, it's a debate between two men, relax.

[@EmberBright2077]

Jay is wrong because he has no standard of certainty and no consistency. The problem with his attitude goes beyond him being mean, and is even more so about him being unable to have any real dialogue, instead relying on insults, interrupting and ignoring everything Erick said.