Centerline Theory is WRONG!? Armchair Violence Review

Wing Chun Kung Fu taught by Retired Police Officer and Tactics Expert, Dominick Izzo.
Dominick Izzo has been training Wing Chun since 1998 and has been teaching in the Chicago area since 2008. He was the first American Wing Chun instructor to be published and published in back to back issues in Wing Chun Illustrated.
He is known for his realistic, aggressive and combative approach to Wing Chun Kung Fu.
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[@IzzoWingChun]

Gang, if you are enjoying these, hit that "THANKS" button and show us some support!

[@shalom-shalom]

Izzo, your problem with bruce lee and jkd, is that you don't understand the intention of the jkd, you think it's just to evolve wing chun, and maybe it was the beginning of things, but it had become something completely different. But it ta

[@shalom-shalom]

But it takes a genius to understand a genius, and you are not.

[@IzzoWingChun]

I have been in this for 30 years and fully understand what it is and isnt. Most ppl who do JKD have no clue.

[@shalom-shalom]

This is exactly the point. It takes a genius a few minutes to understand something others will understand after ten years, and others will never understand. Bruce lee didn't need to study and practice the missing parts of wing chun for ten years so he could decide what works for him, he saw others doing them, and it took him a few minutes to understand what is useful for what he wanted to achieve in jkd. Not years, just minutes. This is what geniuses do. And they make it more simple and effective and direct, so you can finish the fight in less than 5 seconds. Wing chun is too complicated and more suitable for women and people who don't have punching power. It takes too much time to finish a fight like that. Bruce lee corrected these flaws and others, and in time the part of wing chun in jkd got smaller and smaller. Use what works for you...

[@IzzoWingChun]

@@shalom-shalom disagree.

[@metrolinamartialarts]

I explained to Armchair before he made this video my concept of centerline and he was like "that's not what everyone else says" 🤣 to which I replied "Good! Everyone else is probably wrong" 😅

[@astonprice-lockhart7261]

Ah, thank you Ed. Context is key. Because Wing Chun like every art changes and adapts in application.

[@astonprice-lockhart7261]

@Black Rhino Martial Arts Exactly!

[@gw1357]

AV is a pretty smart kid and I give him credit for critical thinking, but he also tends to exaggerate and willfully misunderstand things sometime just to be contrarian.

[@mnrick1960]

The one in a million time that I actually feel motivated to comment! Love to experience our orbits intersecting some day. Be well.

[@MultiTictock]

waiting for your reply!

[@gw1357]

The person demonstrating with him is his girlfriend. AV is a smart kid and I appreciate his critical thinking, but he has a tendency to caricature things he criticizes and make strawman arguments. He's not criticizing wing chun, he's criticizing what he thinks it is.

[@vagabondgrappler8434]

His smug demeanor makes him super difficult to watch. (To be clear, I wasn't meaning Izzo).

[@BuddyLee23]

Indeed, he comes off as kinda douchey.

[@Thesenseiformerlyknownas]

Agreed.

[@JeffForsyth]

No shit. It makes him hard to watch. I’ve been very irritated by him.

[@tyrusmfrechs7025]

He’s condescending yet so soft, so soft. There’s no videos of him training for a reason

[@Tstahl962]

There's something called adding comedic value for entertainment. Armchair is very right on a lot of stuff and a great no bullshit source on most of it and he backs it up both with theory and showing practical examples, if his rather ridiculous demeanor (which, again, is meant for entertainment), doesn't work with you that's fair, but he's good to watch for many people (I mean, a lot of his vids have more views than Izzo just sayin), so you can't say he does a bad job

[@brookatkins8111]

He sounds like one of those clowns who spends 1 day on an art form & then believes he has grasped it & can find fault in it

[@riverriverchannel]

which is why wing chun is a common base and often use in high level mma?

[@brookatkins8111]

@@riverriverchanneldon’t know don’t care don’t watch mma crap

[@riverriverchannel]

@@brookatkins8111 then why are you making comments regarding the effectiveness of forms of figting

[@brookatkins8111]

@@riverriverchannel because I can

[@Sandmagical1605]

​@@brookatkins8111 4 years old ahh response

[@qazmko22]

From what I can tell of people that have studied the history and "pressure tested" Wing Chun, and learned to make it work (Former thugs, Cops, Military Veterans) the "Centerline hypothesis" and Wing Chun was based on narrow areas in Hong Kong where side-to-side movements are very hard, so it makes sense that movements would be based on the spine as a column that goes to the ground.

[@wingusdingus9447]

We got a sales man here. Armchair would not agree with you back.

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Thanks for another great video. To be honest, I've seen much of this kid's content and the vast majority of it is saying everyone else's stuff is crap. He seems like a nice person, and has a very humorous way of presenting, which I find entertaining, but he's commenting on stuff that he has no idea about. He simply hasn't been around long enough to have enough experience (which as a 64 year old martial artist with 57 years of experience, I find somewhat annoying). From what I've seen so far, his primary interest is in modern combat sports. I wish him well and hope he continues to develop. Again, thanks for a great video :)

[@ezykill]

The other person is just his girlfriend he asks to help demonstrate things I think

[@1Invinc]

My understanding of center-line is the line drawn from my spine to my opponents spine. Regardless of my stance and my opponent's stance, and where they turn or shift, I just keep the line in mind. So even if I take a classic karate stance, my forward hand is effectively my tansau occupying the centerline so even when I do karate, I am still doing Wing Chun. At least, that's my understanding and how I apply the center line.

[@CustomMadeEntertainment]

We was taught the the center line is the "center of equilibrium" so the opponents center I am always facing due to the line is like a rod straight down the top of the head thought the body and into the ground.

[@retroghidora6767]

Alan Orr has been putting his guys into mma and other combat sport for years lol, people just keep saying he can't attribute his students success to wing chun.

[@Xur______]

His videos are what got me interested in wing chun, really helped me see it in a new light! Love him!

[@galavizK]

I love your videos

[@IzzoWingChun]

Much appreciated!

[@michaelfishbourne4858]

Hey Dom - I like your philosophy of Wing Chun but this guy couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag... Why waste your time with it?

[@user-dw1jp7tp6i]

​​@@IzzoWingChun On the Wing Chun stance, I personally consider it a misnomer to call it a "stance" rather than a technique. First the goat clamping legs are a training tool that is to force you to learn to create "jing" from moving the torso up, down, side to side, and rotation of hips to "snap out" power like a whip (in Bak Mei it's called float, sink, swallow, spit). You're going to be moving in a fight especially against multiple opponents. You don't hold your hands up like that unless you're using it dynamically as a tool, as you said, to block vision, keep distance etc. and the lead hand doesn't have set positions it has a function. Watch Muhammad Ali he used the hand in the face that way all the time. Like boxing the forms aren't how you fight, they are training concepts. Watch Muhammad as he jogs stopping and doing fast chain punches, not because he is going to fight that way but to train hand speed. When using the timing bag, the stance is similar to goat clamping, the heavy bag is conditioning the body to hit something solid like the mook jong does in Wing Chun. I could go on, I'll just say Wing Chun helped me a lot in real fights because of the way it trained my body mechanics but in the fight it didn't look anything like Donnie Yen.

[@Kscott9972]

Great video! Just for reference, Philip Bayer didn't learn Wing Chun until after he lost his hand. Prior to that, he was a TKD practitioner. Not sure who the guy in the picture is.

[@luisbonnet3957]

Izzo Wing Chun, I agree that learning and training the totality of the art really matters. People usually don't want to put in that time and want a shortcut. I also learned the center line theory as a concept to attack the center of balance of the opponent in Xingyi Quan. Love the analysis.

[@ezekielgarza1150]

Sounds like a 12 yrs old kid teaching younger kids things they haven't experienced

[@stevebrindle1724]

Your point about the turn involved with a wing Chun punch is so important/ Personally, for me, an ideal punch would involve a small step forward into your opponent's space with your leading left foot, dragging the right foot along with and a 30-degree or so turn into your opponent twisting your right hip into the action and personally I do an upward twist of the right-hand vertical fist as a coup de gras! Usually, my lead left hand will probably be in a blocking tan sau All these body movements should flow at the same time whilst breathing out. To achieve anything like this takes many repetitions in your training to become second nature. I did WC for 15 years and in the first 18 months we only learned Sui lim Tao, along with basic blocks, punches, and introductory chi sau not moving on to the next 2 forms and dummy work until after this initial 18 months. I was a little put out by this at the time but can understand its value now. I have also boxed and achieved a third dan in TKD and found the common denominator between the three arts to be relaxation and breathing with split-second tension at the very end of strikes. I never miss your videos as I respect your honesty and obvious love of spreading effective Wing Chun and once learned it is definitely effective! As I am now 70 I limit my training to going through the forms once a day and practicing an hour or so of tai Chi or yoga, alternating daily to maintain a healthy body for as long as I can!

[@thanevakarian9762]

Is there a link to the McGuire vs MMA scenarios?

[@gloryrewardsvirtue]

couldnt find a lick of anyone he said

[@mikeposavic9646]

I'm glad you do this. I try to explain shit to people. But I got shitty grammar and fail to communicate my point,lol.

[@nvisblfist1]

Izzo they don't get that Center-line is a concept, but your Intent should be on the opponent's spine, ie the Center-line. If my hands are by my side, or even behind my back, my Intent is still on the Center-line

[@ziggydog5091]

The elbow needs to be in line with the hip, the hands should be placed on either side of your nose, this triangulates your posture, tucking the tailbone opens the lower back and connects the spine to the feet and the hands. Many Chinese arts do this, and Izzo is correct, it is a concept that teaches the unification of bodily strength.

[@bolsack8902]

I think getting your head off line is only done dramatically in boxing everyone else moves a few inches but in boxing getting your head off line usually is followed by a big lead hook/ upper cut or a check hook to get the hell out of there

[@hoop6988]

Moving from one side of the line to another also ads power to your punch because you natural my shift your weight around. Most boxers only move their head that drastically for power punches and as you said try to exist striking range right after.

[@PaganSoul09]

I don't care what style you use, it depends on the person using it.

[@justinheckel5191]

I’m not even a wing chun practitioner. Just a dabbler here and there, and love the theories from it. But even I understand what centerline theory is talking about and that using centerline helps protect you from getting out of position. His nitpicking that your shoulder is off-center and all that kind of stuff just comes across as stupid and wanting to sound smart. Like, “I just came out of puberty, but I have this revelation and criticism that nobody has figured out for generations.”

[@yourcelebrant]

The applied wc stomp is exactly what most people would do if about to be hit by a car coming at them. It's a natural reaction. Most coordinated people would not simply raise their foot to move in the direction they needed to go to avoid being hit, they would likely snap out/down the other foot to give it a kicks start in the opposite direction.

[@davefletch3063]

This guys body movement is terrible, at least the way he demonstrates his strikes

[@hoop6988]

I’m pretty sure he’s mostly a grappler, but if you want a good laugh look at his long guard video.

[@ScytaleZero]

His examples of techniques are exaggerated and slow, I'm assuming for clarity. There are a couple videos of him sparring standup on his channel if you are concerned that's how he really fights.

[@davefletch3063]

@@ScytaleZero I have seen those as well. He still moves poorly. It isnt the speed that is the issue, it's the body mechanics.

[@gilgameshkingofheroes5903]

He doesn't actually consider himself a good striker for a reason

[@MikePrime13]

Hi Izzo. Great video and comments -- my thoughts and comments: (a) Your point about Wing Chun being a graduate school martial arts is spot on. I really think there needs to be a comprehensive Wing Chun theories textbook that people need to read before they can even take a step in a class. The closest I have seen is Sifu Wayne Belonoha's Wing Chun Compendium Vols. 1 and 2. Even though I am learning from a Leung Ting lineage sifu, the basics taught by Wayne Belonoha's books helped me learn quicker in the classes because I understand the basic theory and principles by reading and understanding the mechanics (rather than trying to absorb the concepts real time in class where in most cases, they are being taught piecemeal by sifus because not everyone is on the same level/experience). (b) Pivoting from (a) above, your recent videos where you review and criticize other lineages made me realize that there is a failure of complete, 100% transmission of the complete style from Ip Man to his students. My theory is that Ip Man, just like any great martial artist would do in his position, continued to learn and adapt his art until the day he died. I once made a chart (for shits and giggles) to compare the styles of his students (from his most senior all the way to the youngest, i.e. Bruce Lee and William Cheung). I found that the lineages that come from the 50s class (Leung Sheung, Wong Shun Leung, Moy Yat, etc.) have the most aggressive, raw "I will fuck you up" energy, while toward the late 60s (as Yip Man getting older and more frail), the lineages from this generation become far more technical and rigid to a certain degree (i.e. Leung Ting, Ip Chun, and Ip Ching). This is only my inference, but it makes sense that as you get older, you start to lose raw physical attributes and you have to rely on precise technique and experience to win a real fight. Your video commentary about Leung Ting's lineage (and my personal experience with Leung Ting lineage) is not only consistent, but it makes perfect sense for a style that heavily relies on a 70-30 weight distribution but have a very precise control of elbow energy --- if you are fighting as an older, smaller sized asian man, you do not have the mobility of a 30 year old professional fighter. Rather, your best odds of surviving would be luring the more nimble fighter to a kill zone (and the 70-30 can absorb the pressure better when your tactic is to lure and dominate the opponent with your superior elbow energy control) and destroy them with your close range techniques once the opponent is in the kill zone. Let me know your thoughts on this -- I think it makes perfect sense. Conversely, I found that schools that learned from Ip Man during his prime (Wong Shun Leung, Leung Sheung, Moy Yat,) tend to have the purest and most aggressive wing chun styles out there. Examples of 2nd generations from this generation include Gary Lam, Wang Zhi Peng, Jai Harman and Adam Chan. They are much more in line with the Foshan wing chun styles (2nd generations include Francis Fong) compared to the more technical HK lineages (Samuel Kwok, Keith Kernspecht, Leo Au Yeung, etc). (c) To me, the whole Wing Chun lineage civil war is the silliest and the most toxic thing that really hurt Wing Chun as a whole. Even assuming Ip Man is the ultimate wing chun master (which he was not -- other wing chun lineages from his time are equally valid and viable and have other things to teach), none of the lineages, in my view, have the complete picture of the entire system from start to finish. If the lineages care about advancing and teaching the art of wing chun in a way that can be respected in the martial arts community, everyone needs to shut the f up and start cross learning between the styles. Wing Chun needs to be an open source martial arts system where people can freely contribute and/or take from the system, and grow from there. By making wing chun open source, we can all put the bad wing chun to rest, and let the good wing chun be disseminated and filtered through the entire wing chun community. (d) From my experience, centerline is a teaching and training concept. Your thoughts and teachings about center line is far cleaner and more practical because I think you speak from your wrestling experience -- it's simple and makes perfect sense. (e) I agree with you that Armchair Violence is good because he voices his opinions based on his understanding of wing chun, which is a shame for us wing chun guys because we suck at teaching wing chun if others see wing chun that way.

[@CaveMan72]

Well spoken

[@SilenMonser]

Right on! Even within the Ip Man lineage, I discovered that I only had one part of Wing Chun understood because my 1st lineage via a student of Robert Chu (from Hawkins Cheung, Bruce Lee's friend and training partner), focused on a lot of upper body work. I went to Gary Lam's school (Wong Shun Leung, Ip Man's prime time) and learned more lower body, more aggressive power generation. I put it together and I found my Wing Chun became more balanced out. Not 100% complete, but not as skewed with as much as a weakness from before.

[@walterevans2118]

Central line distinct from center line ...yes,,,I can see how confusing them could cause problems. Both theoretical & practical...Another thing to consider with comparing weapons & open hand & the center line would be FENCING. But in open hand you would have to get in CLOSER. 'Armchair Violence' ? ...Well, I only saw that work with Kareem at the beginning of his fight with Bruce in Game of Death....lol

[@GrandmasterGregYau]

I just found your channel. Very interesting because it keeps me entertained. You have mentioned several names of instructors I have met in California. I love Wing Chun !!! LOL

[@everlastingwingchundunedin4776]

to me the centerline is not a super thin line it's a bit wider kind of like a beam of light..kind of like a tracking device or connecting to the target..sometimes it feels like the winch on a four wheel drive truck..once it is connected that's where your body force is directed...notice in shooting video games the crosshair is in the centre of the screen as you or they move? even if my arms are off to the side as I fire or throw an object the guidance to the target is still a centre line.. chi sau or dummy often the arms are not directly on the centerline but the connection to the target is...

[@oldschoolkarate-5o]

🤔👍🏽

[@trondyne3513]

Do you know what plagiarism is? Quoting philosophical ideas from books or teaching a technique from other arts isn't plagiarism unless you claim you invented it. Bruce majored in philosophy and had an extensive library, quoting the Tao doesn't make you a plagiarist... copying that book and saying you wrote it IS... TIP: Books that were written about JKD after Bruce died weren't written by Bruce... I would challenge you to provide an example of Bruce's plagiarism doing that when he was alive -- should be easy if he did it all the time....or retract that statement..

[@IzzoWingChun]

Nah. I’ll just keep on posting content that puts you fanboys in a tizzy. 😅

[@trondyne3513]

@@IzzoWingChun Calling someone a plagiarist and not backing it up? Seems to me you can't back it up... Says more about you than anyone else.

[@IzzoWingChun]

@@trondyne3513 calling him a thief would just be plain mean.

[@florisvanlingen]

@@trondyne3513 Someone has to do it in order to cancel a bit of al the worship he is getting. I'm no bruce lee hater and don't think he is what izzo says. But I stand by his point that most bruce lee fan's do not realize how much of his theory and techniques were borrowed. Most statements that made bruce famous came from other sources than himself.

[@glennr2358]

Never had a recorded fight and all his fighting prowess is hearsay at best. He was an actor ……. Move on.

[@bartangel4867]

you are right about not leaning forward when delivering a punch and it is a habit that I'm trying to break and I can deliver lots more power if I don't lean into the punch. as far as weapon being extension of the body that is true still there are things unique to the armed vs unarmed combat and there are things unique to each weapon also. for example if you compare long sword to a rapier there are similarities but there are also differences. if you are right handed with a long sword you stand with your left foot forward and your right foot back and you either stand in that stands or switch the stands depending on a situation. with the rapier on the other hand if you are right handed you stand with your right foot forward and your left foot back and you almost never switch stands. which is opposite stands to what right handed person would have in a fist fight. so while your weapon should be extension of you the way to wield it is not always the same as in a fist fight.

[@tyrelljeffries2527]

Izzo is on 🔥

[@zeedthemohican8296]

How to beat WC Chapter 1) turn back and show your back to your opponent. You've completely hidden your centerline, WC guy can't do anything against you. ... If we don't understand that the word centerline refers to an axis, everything in the system turns into a bizarre form.

[@AjaychinuShah]

Thanks for your Service.

[@davefletch3063]

I love how you keep pointing out the fact that people don’t complete training in their system before diving into the new fad martial arts. They never keen enough to know if it works or nor

[@davefletch3063]

In Japanese martial arts is called Shu, Ha, ri…learn the form, break the form, leave the form

[@gilgameshkingofheroes5903]

If you train an art for 3 years and did so regularly but didn't get anything out of it then you should probably leave it.

[@leifodinnson]

I never thought about this before and Ive trained in Wing Chun for sixteen years now. The centerline theory only works of you're going up against another Wing Chunner

[@smartresearchwingchun494]

I have a book which you should read, "The Wing Chun Revelations". Google it. It's a book of revelations.

[@nemesis9022]

The "nobody would punch like that argument" seems silly to me the more I come to understand wing chun in a fighting context. If we look at a tan, it can easily become an uppercut... the same way a bong can morph into a hook. The little idea is fi ding the center and controlling it. Once that is done and you get to chum kiu where you are learning to move it and move from it, you are free.

[@pizzulo8111]

I've always said attack the spine. No matter if someone is standing sideways to you, backwards, facing you, or anything in between.

[@leoholy9818]

Every single day there's gonna be a bunch of people criticising something they don't understand or understand wrong due to their ignorance and judge it, all I gonna say is, yes, talk to a rocket designer and tell him or her you should use gasoline for its engine, see how damn right, how damn clever these people are

[@carlosschaafygarcia884]

As somebody doing martial arts for 40 years and having finished the Wing Chun System, I totally agree. There is just one little misconception: Bruce Lee learned Wing Chun for much more than 3 years (no, I am not a fan, I don´t really care either way). But it doesn´t matter, although most of Bruce Lees "wisdom" are other peoples quotes, that doesn´t make it wrong. And the martial arts of his times were really much to traditional (even Wing Chun). Now, that I finished the system, I see, how much misinformation there is in the Wing Chun community, how much was forgotten because of different reasons. For example, secrecy to the grave by the old masters, chinese culture revolution, unreasonable asian copy culture without understandings etc. Took me a long while to really understand Wing Chun and for that I had to go to another Kung Fu system. I would like to give you a little gold nugget on my way out, rembember: The enemy in Sil Nim Dao is on the left or right of you!

[@GrandmasterGregYau]

I love to share with you what I have learned playing Wing Chun for 50 years. It's all about art and science. I learn more about the higher levels of martial arts from the outside.

[@CaveMan72]

Qi La La uses wing chun and hsing yi effectively in the cage. Its all about application and execution not the moves you know

[@anti1training]

And he doesn't use centerline. It's beautiful

[@ricksterdrummer2170]

12:20 If you freeze his punching image and think about what he says about centerline, if THAT punch landed that way off centerline, it would just slide off the cheek or in the best case turn the head. A punch to the centerline would do a hell of a lot more damage. I just found that little detail funny.

[@MauroSanna]

Errr... The guy said "...and in JKD, is center line". That's comepletely wrong. Center line is not at all a principle in JKD. Maybe this guy should do his homeworks before recording a video. I agree with him in many other things he's said though.

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

It's the same as the stuff he said for wing chun, only applies for certain schools. Some JKD schools DO teach a lot about centerline theory and treat it as a core part of JKD

[@MauroSanna]

@@jestfullgremblim8002 I have been trained in both Jun Fan JKD (Bruce Lee/Ted Wong JKD) and JKD System (Dan Inosanto JKD). None of them makes the centre line theory their core. They teach you what it is, only because of the roots of JKD (especially Jun Fan). Apart from that, JKD is not based on the centre line theory.

[@EXHellfire]

I think the point of why he was showing a normal boxing straight punch when demonstrating how they don't come from the centre, is that a wing chun practitioner might not necessarily be defending themselves from another wing chun practitioner. If it works it should work regardless of the opponent's form and discipline

[@hydroturd]

I think armchair doesn't know a lick about boxing or wing chun period. His boxing punches aren't from boxing or any striking art I've seen. He gets easily jabbed in the face by icy mike (who is shorter than him) in their sparring video and still didn't learn why. Where you put your hands and how you angle your body always matters when you're engaging, there's no "360 degree defense" when someone is at arms length. Watch tony jeffries or tim witherspoon channels and you'll see probably more similarities to what Izzo teaches than you ever would from armchair. I can't even take seriously that armchair does BJJ and MMA when he strikes like that.

[@davidtarantino152]

So without thousands of hours a physics nerd figured out half of what you grew out of by 29 years old? I applaud u agreeing with the kid. I love his channel. U like him pressure test. It’s legit that u do.

[@zywrxcodera1681]

He didn't adopt on how to play, didn't accepted how to use it by doing and if not belong to him.

[@bartangel4867]

As a southpaw for me I should rarely stand on the center line but rather to the side of my opponent with my lead leg outside of his. if I'm in the center line we can both hit each other what I shouldn't be is to be inside of him. What I do usually want however is my weapons be on his center line. the vertical fist which I think is used in wing chun is difficult to see and protect against and is a good thing to have as an addition because it can split the guard and opponent has to be very well protected in order to defend it which often makes him exposed to the hook from the side. this type of punch is a good thing but while its harder to spot and block its not as powerful as typical horizontal punch because horizontal punch is better aligned with your elbow.

[@isaiahflemingramsey2351]

Good Evening sir can you do a Biu Jee form video like you did for the Sim Lim Tao, and the Chum Kiu form? Thank you in advance sir.

[@Pudgels]

He has no idea what he is doing with the sword….

[@jordanrock3494]

This guy's takes always bother me. "Look guy's, I've been doing mma for a few years, so now I know everything even though every video is lacking professional experience and is full of holes." His method is as hypocritical as it can get.😂

[@ziggydog5091]

This guy is a fool, Izzo is correct in everything but taking this guy seriously.

[@gloryrewardsvirtue]

i mean your argument basically added up to "we dont allow those barbaric boxing moves in wingchun so our system is still valid" also almost everything you said he literally instantly covered in his next statement

[@junichiroyamashita]

7:50 it fits,reminds me of Tongbeiquan,and how many kung fu styles develop strenght "through the back"

[@yesbutactuallyno8305]

I was never a Wing Chun fan BUT! Izzo changed my mind

[@katokianimation]

Videos like this what the discourse needs to progress. So refeshing after all the wing chun apology vs dead horse beating

[@WebDeexx]

There is a midline, and there are elbow lines, the elbows in the bai jong position are on the elbow lines, and the wrists are closer to the midline. The correct position of the bai jong determines your effective defense. spread your elbows and receive a blow to the body, bring your elbows closer to the center line and you will interfere with your own defense and miss a blow from the outside.

[@dariusghodsi2570]

Great point about focusing on the spine as the center axis

[@dirtyharry5957]

Izzo im like yourself a big chunky guy. I've been practicing wing chun for years and I don't think I'm too bad at it. I've never been able to get my elbows into the centre. But like to said early on in your video I have made it my own.

[@renegadekenshin1]

Awesome video. Wish I could learn proper wing chun now

[@davidwayne9982]

Anyone that says CENTER LINE principle (not theory) is WRONG-- is a damn fool!!! I've studied physics and body mechanics.. and centerline is part of physics and is CRUCIAL-- PERIOD.

[@maxfaubus3116HiddenChurch]

No body can have their hands in a perfect guard, there is always an opening no matter what. My opinion is to discover a guard that best fits you as a strike or block or trap take off position.

[@twooharmony2000]

12:23 as an observer of something related...you,, et al, pivot wrong--as to original intent. When one pivots--turnside heel-otherside ball (hold with the lead toes) the pivot moves one's front centerline off-center and a Wing Chun straight punch (closest to opponent being punched at) lands outside the opponent's front centerline with the Wing Chun practitioner staying in front with no stepping...as I comprehend it,, pretty much, one might say.-Ernie Moore Jr

[@brianrahuba6919]

Lol centerline. Well it does exist, I never thought of the spine as being the centerline but it does thank you . But if you turn on any angle the centerline is still in front of you . Face to face right chest and face is the centerline but if I step to either side now the ribs ,liver side of their head or knock is my centerline. It's just so simple it's complicated. And I'm not even close in any art as yourself . Just a street fighter . Slowing down at the age of 55 . I've trained here and there . Went to 3 schools two were trophy schools . And everything is MMA Training these days . Which jacks of all trades and masters of nothing . I gave up on schools now I just keep traing my my hands keep breaking patio blocks by slapping and punching . Do some heavy bag and lifting never failed me . Unless my opponent was better or has a bigger beast mode then I .

[@dannyjingu]

Thank you, you have articulated what I WAS about to about the center line in the comments, but you did a far superior job than I could.

[@twooharmony2000]

13 :41 you seem to be indicating the spinal centerline and that line is 360°,,, which is worthless for directing,,, saying centerline in Wing Chun originally referenced the front centerline sagittal longitudinal plane-edge...Not,, a pole as a line midway between the shoulders and in the back, which would rotate a person-windshieldwipering them--keeping them then central to the opponent front, yet-while making where they're facing anywhere but, instead of, facing the opponent. -Ernie Moore Jr

[@mattpatterson9128]

Bruce filled the Void of his limited Knowledge of W C with other arts. Ip Man did not train him all the time, because Bruce was not full Chinese. I don't care if people get mad at me over this statement. He was an entertainer, He had to keep his face free from injuries. You want to know about a real fighter that took licks? Yukari Oshima, she was a Karate champion in Japan, then she made movies in Hong Kong. She got nailed in her face, and they had to film her from the other side of her face. She fought, period.

[@bartangel4867]

As far as protecting your center line yes you do need to do that but the way most fighters do it is they shell up and keep their chin down. that protects your center line and to some degree your sides as well. assuming the stance I seen in wing chun is correct it it will protect you some what but it will not protect your side at all. what it might be slightly more effective (or better term would probably be less ineffective) against a knife. if you shell up against a knife your defense will not work and you are completely on defensive and your opponent has the initiative. if you use wing chun stance there is a chance that you can move his hand away in time and defend your self. not that it is a good technique to protect yourself against a knife because there is no good technique of defense against a knife if you are unarmed but it is slightly better than shelling up. (although what you really should do is tuck your elbow in with your fist right under your nose and go for a throat the groin or the solar plexus as quickly as you can and pray you don't miss because you won't get a second chance or better yet run away) now from what I saw many eastern martial arts are actually designed to fight with weapons and less so with their fists. that is why their systems aren't as effective in a fist fight yet very effective in armed combat.

[@evildavehargrave3240]

I would love to show that guy just how the center line theory works...with my fists...these misinformed internet nerds piss me off...and by the way,his soft face and hands look like theyve never even been used before...lol

[@WLBarton4466]

Traveling through Mexico in the mid 1970s I partied with some martial arts guys in Monterey. One called me El Hombre. He said that after sparring. Supposedly a man who can fight but not be all scarred up must win most of his scraps is a Hombre. We parted as Compadres.

[@BigMoik]

That guy would absolutely shit stomp you lmao

[@evildavehargrave3240]

@@BigMoik lol

[@andresmartinezramos7513]

I would put my money on him. Not you.

[@evildavehargrave3240]

@@andresmartinezramos7513 lol...and why is that?

[@TT-lg7ip]

Opinions without insight can be dangerous! Izzo, Sir, is feeding the trolls really so effective in drawing clicks that you have to play that game? The 'Armchair Violence' guy has (or pretend to have) opinions regarding Wing Chun and Sword Fighting, like earlier regarding Self Defense and punching... while showing (!) all of us viewers he clearly has zero real world knowledge. Imagine him instead arguing regarding grammar, but showing the viewers he can not write properly... why give any clown like that the time out of your day?

[@davidwayne9982]

I've always said- " it's NOT the art--- it's the ARTIST".... period. Proper training, committment... and HARD focused application is rare in most practitioners... and if it's NOT there-- the art won't work.-- hell- a BASEBALL bat works fine for defense--- if properly applied to the situation..

[@brionpriest6735]

There are couple UFC guys that use Wing Chun in the UFC.

[@user-pz7hd9oh7x]

Great Video!

[@windvlaag4404]

The interesting part (i think) is his part of the longsword and weapon centerline theory and to understand that the main weapon of wing chun is the butterfly swords.

[@alexschexnayder8624]

He didn't really present the centerline concept in Longsword very well either. This is one of those things where it's the paradox of defense. There are times where it is true that "controlling" or taking the center is the way to go like Fiore's counter thrust technique from iron door that can really be done from just about any guard, and there are times to work around the opponent's offered line like how the German tradition makes use of the crooked cut as either a strike to the forearms or a beating to the opponent's blade as they step and slightly rotate off the aggressor's line. Also the Germans do fiore's defense as well, I think they were calling it Zornhau Ort back when I was more active in HEMA.

[@IvaHaze]

Scout does such a nice explanation of martial arts.

[@twooharmony2000]

20:56 but the tierd ist your level, and developmental toward strengthening like holding weights distally, and endurance. If you're not where you'd like to be. Do it more it seems -Ernie Moore Jr.

[@WLBarton4466]

Your guard means they can't see a tell with your eyes. Left jab and snap kick is my starting defense.

[@citydrums7525]

Is MMA the fulfillment of JKD?

[@melvinmalonga4068]

Izzo you don't understand geometry : "The plane connecting the two lines [axis of the two people] is the centerline" you nodded and agreed to this but then kept saying the centerline would be moving if one of the opponent turned that's not how it works. Even in Armchair's example he purposely showed one fighter bladed and the other squared. This should have been an immediate give away that you got it wrong. Rather than just reacting of the cuff please double check your arguments and try reviewing the video on your own first. Armchair's video is only 6 minutes long, not because no thought went into it but because he had the humility to not believe he would get everything right just off the top of his head and he had the decency to make his thoughts concise as to be worth our time.

[@KhonsurasBalancedWaytoWellness]

That guy's presentation is cocky and terrible. His demonstration of a principle reveals his lack of experience and knowledge of Wing Chun. It textbook BS. Young man needs to stay in his lane and stop with the misinformation for clicks.🙄

[@bolsack8902]

Yo question so you said you keep 50/50 weight and also mentioned a good grappler will eat up a heavy footed lean but I’m a bit confused how you counter throws of you stay 50/50 all the time because defending throws and singles and blast doubles requires a lot of hopping shifting weight and whatnot just curious Edit this question for me thinking how to you address wrist control under hooks or body lock entries with your super long guard I understand you’ll punch/ kick them but wouldn’t you be giving easy arm drags Russians and body locks even if traditional shots aren’t the bets because of your weight distribution (I’m I just asking a striking art to address grappling or is this something you guys think about?)

[@geoffreyfletcher6976]

I am already subscribed to his channel and he did make some valid points. But it's easy to criticize arts or systems if what is being displayed for example is being poorly done or demonstrated.

[@OnassisParungao]

Well said... I Don't do WC...but I've been teaching that accessing the center is to focus on the spine for many years. Sometimes we use the example of a " revolving door".... That it rotates on a central (spine like) post.

[@jasonstewartskungfustyles7106]

Interesting, the centre line isn't the spine imo, Izzo you demonstrated the centre and central lines well showing tan and punch, it's not confusing at all, twc chum kil mostly central line. Some things said are correct how I see it, some things low level understanding. Gave me some ideas for a video. JKD just formless WC imo developed by what others taught Lee- WSL, William Cheung, etc. The principal of the centre line changes, the principles go deeper and deeper. If come from a different system you'll have bad habits for WC, it is good as a 1st art imo. But always interesting to me to hear others thoughts, the spine doesn't go up through the head, the spine is just the spine, it has its own training, nothing to do with centre line. Thanks for motivation to give my thoughts on this topic, maybe if delve into other Chinese arts you'll see better rather than boxing, bjj, etc.

[@IzzoWingChun]

Thanks, Jason, I disagree.

[@strub11]

That's Sifu Ian Protheroe at 17:00. Student of William Cheung.

[@pipedreamteam4184]

The dumb arguing with the blind

[@benmoi3390]

centerline is more of the direct line, the concept derive from the main idea of wingchun to go forward and directly and not waste time or energy in fancy move or circular movement... the direct line is faster then a circle line..... then keeping your centre line and defending it, is to defend your center of balance your core, because a hit on the core is way more devastating... the idea of facing square front opponent is just for keeping choices open and not telegraphing your movement, keeping both hands available and since your to fight in wrestling range, each hands defend its own side... so the idea of center line is to avoid crossing it as it can lead to some armlock.... all those are just concept as you said to guide understanding all those aspect, they aren't "rule" to be followed blindly... there is no rule when you fight for your life.

[@benmoi3390]

what I find interesting in wingchun is that it's the same fighting concept than fencing... european fencing that I did in my youth way before wingchun, talk about a corridor instead... and since it's fighting with a pointing piece of metal... the idea in different in posture as you fight almost sideway... but that's because of the range... to offer the less area to be thrusted in by the opponent, and also... to have your heart the more far away from that pointy tip. but essentially it's the same concept... fencing is all about deflecting attack and rushing (thrusting) forward in lunge of fleche. And the center line is more about the guard in center and the 4 doors with 8 parades

[@christopherkeech2795]

22:17 minutes in its the application one balancing arm opposite leg .n you walk through him .land on the on the top of thigh n use his to hit u energy of forward on you arm receiving n then side ways angle energy on his leg expanding down

[@benmoi3390]

I don'T think he does any wingchun, does he?! he look more like having heard some people talking about the wc guard on the centerline and just found that absurd... compared to longsword... he seams to be more a hema practicionner.... and yeah the noob WC idea that is taught is keep both your hand in the centerline one behind the other and if you say that to any boxer they are going to tell you exactly what he is saying... "that'S stupit because both your hand are protecting nothing and you are giving up both side from which the strongest punch are coming"... I had that argument with a boxer friend... and had to prove him that, ya in a sense, he is right "but both my hand are closer to your face and you aren'T defensing it either... so I gonna reach you faster..." and by applying forward pressure and leg trapping by always stepin inside his guard and footwork and staying within wrestling range I just disable almost all his options... he can roll dodge into hook or uppercut but I'm still gonna be faster, gonna sense it with contact and keep striking directly on him... because moving is slower than pivoting... if he has to move around me I just have to pivot... and when I'm now talking like hypothetically, that's because that was the argument before I had to prove it in real sparring... the rare time I sparred at all, and it was without gloves or any gear, we just went low power and full speed, so mostly only the power generated from the speed was there.. that's the point that I find missing in your teaching it's the footwork, I understood that you've already said that you don't do much kicking and it's obvious... but for myself every step is a forward step inside the leg, on the foot or just beside it, to get tibias on tibias contact... everystep is a kick to the ankle or a knee, strike to the hip. so that, against a boxer, is completly distabilising and destructive, that's the idea that both arms and legs are attacking both simultaneously... in wingchun if your defense is attack, well your step are kick aswell and you are doing all four in same time which overwhelm most poeple with to many angle of attacks. the punches aren't that powerful, the kick neither... but going in same time, time after time, over and over... most other martial arts aren'T train to deal with those since they almost always train on alternating, focussing power on a single strike at a time... I guarranty you if you start training your stepping so that every step is a kick/knee strike in the leg of you opponent and position inside his footwork... you'll find often them just tripping overthemselves while you keep going forwad pressure in punches.

[@sergiobatista2272]

Excelente comment bro!!! Everything you said is correct! I am also like you when applying wing Chun...i allways kick or knee, even when playing with the hands, just like you said...we stryke with legs and arms coordnatly almost simultaneously. I don't understand why most wing Chun practitioners refuse to do this, and I don't understand why Izzo refuses to kick...he's missing so many opportunities to defeat the opponents.

[@benmoi3390]

@@sergiobatista2272 thx for your courage reading me, I just noticed all the mispelling,, conrrected few and added some ponctuations... lol I wirte like roman used to write 2000 years ago.

[@sergiobatista2272]

@@benmoi3390 actually I didn't notice any misspelling other than a missing letter in a word or two...maybe there's a better way to speak English, but I'm not English myself (I'm portuguese) so I'm not qualified to be a judge of correct language, grammar, spelling, etc. And I'm not that good at my own native language either. You have written very well (in my opinion), especially compared to what I usually see in other comments.

[@christopherkeech2795]

7.32 in : you've said the central .was the one on your cup .the angle changed its still the same just coz the 1 on your cup moved depending how you the person adapts doesn't matter technically they picked a side n you can dominate the side they've taken .it's half they weaponry against you .its like if there on their side center line would take out there structure . The bit about Bruce tho I'd rather have a Norma guy jump kicking me, then someone who has Done wing chun for years n can do a jumping across the room flying kick n train it because the didn't train it I his chun class

[@zywrxcodera1681]

People thinking, it doesn't work but always ban in MMA.

[@gilgameshkingofheroes5903]

What's banned in MMA?

[@zywrxcodera1681]

@@gilgameshkingofheroes5903 Wing Chun

[@gilgameshkingofheroes5903]

@@zywrxcodera1681 How so? Wing Chung is not banned anywhere.

[@zywrxcodera1681]

@@gilgameshkingofheroes5903 in MMA, Bro

[@gilgameshkingofheroes5903]

@@zywrxcodera1681 You're not answering anything. How is Wing Chun banned in MMA? In what way?

[@anthonylawrence3193]

In WC TW the two Center line and Central lines are two seperate things The Centerline is what you face the point of contact with and the centraline is the line of attack lets your arms in performing a larp sao or pak sao . You have be familar with the two stances that WC uses in his systen the side lateral stance and the side stance it is a little complicated to try and ezplain here in the comments though .

[@dannyjingu]

No disrespect to Armchair, but he pretty much contradicted himself using the fists vs. weapons analogy, and I can see you wanted to point that out. His video feels more like he had his "Aha! Moment" and wanted to share with everyone. When he gets more years and experience under his belt, his understanding will evolve and there will be even better "Aha! Moments" to share.

[@anti1training]

How did he contradict himself

[@sergiobatista2272]

Armchair is a complete clown!!! I've watched some of his videos, and... It's so ridiculous!

[@anti1training]

@@sergiobatista2272 How? What did you disagree with?

[@sergiobatista2272]

@@anti1training I've watched 2 or 3 videos of him, and he is wrong. This wing Chun video is all wrong, and the other video was about what are the best martial arts for self defense and real fighting...and he got all wrong again and biased.

[@anti1training]

@@sergiobatista2272 No he definitely got the self defense video completely right. I don't know how anyone would disagree with it. It's kinda common sense. A wrestling background helps a ton, transitioning into any martial art. I did wrestling for years, went into BJJ, went the same pace as everyone else, avoided submissions and was able to hold people down. Even gave the blue belt assistant instructor a bit of a hard time, by being able to maneuver around. The footwork and grappling of Wrestling teaches you how to move around a person, without getting caught. And since most people do not know how to grapple, it definitely would work against untrained people. So he's completely correct. Wrestling would only make you better at any other combat sport, while giving you perspective and new angles you wouldn't think of normally. I do Kickboxing and BJJ now, and I can get in and out different way, thanks to my wresting experience which has taught me how to close the distance well and escape. It's not biased, it's common sense and experience. It's actually facts

[@lylesuperfoot]

the centerline is a myth, body weight strikes coming at you , will break your centerline, look at mike tyson and the peekaboo , you must move your head off centerline,,when you punch always move your head off centerline.,you said you break structure again look at pro boxers, look at tyson , hes structure was so good after he broke centerline that he hit you with more punches after the centerline punches you never seen coming, you must learn to punch from the ground, pushing off the ball of the rear foot, bodyweight massx acceleration, use torquettwisting force. never stand rooted.

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

The thing is, structure only really matters when both you and your opponent have a big conection akin to Chi Sao. Like, try to wrestle on Judo or clinch on Muay Thai wirhour proper posture and you'll see what i mean. But while boxing, your opponent cannot push you, pull you, break your balance, etc. So you definitely can use different shapes that have "no structure" in those scenarios. Am i being clear enough? Now then, how can you apply this whole structure thing, then? The answer is simple, you use Wing Chun concepts while using Wing Chun for what it's made for! You've surely heard about Wing Chun being a close quarters-based style, right? If you look at boxing, boxers do not use head movement while they are very, very close. Instead of that, they clinch, frame, pivot, pull and push. Literally the things that you are supposed to do in wing chun lol. You could say that pivoting is like a kind of head movement, but it really is *body* movement instead lol. Anyways, you are supposed to use these Wing Chun concepts in THOSE situations, not in everything else! Just think about it, if a boxer tries to clinch you like they usually do while you have your hands extended like in Wing Chun, they will not be able to clinch you (your damn hands are in the way) and you will gain control of them (you can redirect them quite easily depending on what they're doing) plus they will run straight into your punch lol

[@levimaynard2237]

People that pronounce it "wing chung" with a G at the end.... Annoying.

[@IzzoWingChun]

Y.E.S.

[@benmoi3390]

his point is that the idea of centerline is litterally the sword guard stance which act as a physical centre line the "shield" you... because if your opponent hit, unless with a thrust, with swing then his hands gonna have to pass thru the centerline for the blade to reach your body thus the center line is effectively a defense... that's way longsword evolved into more thurst orientated sword to end up into rapier... a completely thrust dedicated weapon, where centerline is still a concept of defense to deflect incoming thrust. unarmed combat throwing a puinch most of the time, any normal people punch from one side in diagonal more or less arced thrust swing...thus going around yourcenter line of guard right on your chin... he is right in the sense the people believe that the guard of wingchun act much like the longsword stance... it don'T and that's why boxers and everyone just push around that centerline, idiot WCers.

[@christopherkeech2795]

I just don't why talking bout swords n not the pole it's brakes holes in all the actions with the swords ,I mean does you use swords chun ?

[@charliemcdowell5231]

I think armchair violence has some good ideas and will go pretty far. The main issue I see is the combination of young age and a smug persona which rubs people the wrong way. Young people CAN be really smart and old people CAN be really dumb. People generally don’t like someone speaking down to them, but it can be especially grating when the apparent condescension is coming from someone young.

[@user-cv2dp9xn8i]

3 years w. WSL , the king of talking hands? Does that count? 😂 3 years w. Hong Kongs finest fighter? Remember WSL was also a boxer. Hard training warrior and he fought alot. Everything goes in a streetfight/dueling. Learning the whole "system"? 🤣 Mr. Lee learned to FIGHT from one of the best Fighter in his days - you guyes have to wake up. And still, original WC warriors where assasins, military combatives aimed to kill a human being - hide and attack/kill fast. What military goes into war without weapons? No guns at that time, sword, knifes that they had to hide. Partisan Warriors. Read the history. It was war. Wake up guyes. Don't get stuck is your minds and systems. Learn to fight from warriors w. Firsthand knowledge. Get real.

[@chvhndrtntlr3482]

I don't know why he is like that, but for me he like a person that took trial class for every martial arts he can get and think he already know the function of each movement and philosophy then try so hard to mock ebery traditional martial arts as possible to gain clout He probably has his opinion (about some movement and philisophy of some traditional martial arts) from someone else he watch on internet. He may right about the opinion at first, but then when he demonstrate it,.he clearly doesn't know what he is talking about And the worst part of his content, he forced his opinion too far and closed minded when someone try to correct or critiques his critiques (read his own pinned comment) that mostly about the fundamental, mechanism, history and context of something he critiques For me his content only appeal to martial arts enthusiast and combat sports fans,that have no or.minimal experience with martial arts, not the true practitioner of martial arts or fighter or atheletes. The type of people that do ego sparring and talk about his plan and strategy to defeat his opponent before get actual punch in the face

[@huansitoaguilar9405]

You both wrong , Center Line theory comes from the fact that most { nose , mouth , throat , sternum , solar plexus , stomach , bladder , genitals } targets in a fight run down the middle of the human frame [ or near ] , where ever the person moves the target is the same , Bruce Lee also teaches to manipulate the direction of the fight so if my apponent moves the target remains the same ; the knee & ankle are other targets that can be hit to imbalance the opponent and bring him under control to finish the fight