Why Star Trek NEEDS Borg

The Borg are one of, if not the biggest danger to the United Federation of Planets and Starfleet, but I have seen a lot of talk sating they are overplayed. While I agree, I think their very existence is necessary for Star Trek based on their lore and story potential.
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[@StevenHouse1980]

Starfleet trys to "Walk quietly and carry a Big Stick" But until thay had a run in with The Borg, they did not realy understand just how much of a "Big Stick" was actualy needed to just survive the Borg underestimateing them.

[@daverapp]

Presenting the Borg as a shattered, fallen, former galactic super power that other races are picking over for technology was one of the few things Picard did right, in season 1 anyway. Keeping them that way allows them to be mysterious and potentially awe-inspiring, which is the main traits they lost after constantly losing to the crews of the Enterprise and Voyager. I like the idea that there are a million derelict Borg ships and facilities sitting out in space, the drones all dead and/or disconnected, waiting for some schmuck to stumble upon them... And the idea that if all this broken infrastructure started working again, the galaxy would again face an existential threat that they thought they were safe from. I also like the idea of Janeway being known galaxy-wide as "That crazy psycho who broke the Borg" because really that show was what ruined them.

[@biggaymike1983]

I agree. Well, mostly, but I disagree on the idea the Borg were 'ruined' by VOY. I would choose the word 'diminished' instead. They really took the teeth out of the Borg, especially in the finale, and I don't think that was necessary. However, we also learned a lot about them, which I don't think was _unnecessary_, but certainly compounded the 'starfleet wins again' scenarios we were presented with. I think the writers and cast were very capable of riding that line, but the execs and producers wanted to turn VOY into a spectacle, so we ended up with fleets of juggernauts, and then had no choice but to have weapons to take them out in a single volley.

[@347Jimmy]

I liked the Shellac Confederacy as a "too alien to understand" antagonist species in TNG, and I was disappointed they didn't get reused beyond their one and only appearance

[@Novarcharesk]

Hey, they can pick them up any time :P

[@turkeytrac1]

They weren't to hard to understand. Unlike the ferengi, who were believers in the free market gold, the sheliac were the corporate entities that wished to control the gold.

[@DoremiFasolatido1979]

I hate that. It's lazy. "I don't have to actually make anything up in detail, because I can just say they're too weird to comprehend." Then...every single time...they make those "too alien" creatures/societies just another carbon copy of some extremist human society or individuals' behaviors. It's boring as fuck.

[@AC20sAkimbo]

I like the legalistic trash bags covered in glitter too.

[@MisterPuck]

Didn’t the Federation literally have a treaty with them in their one episode? That proves they can be understood and reasoned with. We even got a really badass Picard moment when he finds something in the treaty he can finally use to beat them at their own game.

[@nathanjacquart4395]

I agree. I think the Borg represent the best narrative foil to the values of The Federation. Both seek the same things (peace, connection, unity, growth, advancement, safety) but their mentality and methodology are so starkly different. The Federation aims to accomplish those things through agreements crafted through understanding and coexistence to hopefully meet an eventual assimilation of culture while The Borg force compliance with their values through assimilation. Only The Dominion really comes close to being another great foil to The Federation, but they can be reasoned with.

[@Skirne]

So well said.

[@afd1040]

I would add dominion to that as well.

[@nathanjacquart4395]

@@afd1040 I agree.

[@TK199999]

It also should noted that some fans think the Borg also represent a parody of Gene's vision of TNG. Where there is no internal conflict, no emotion and all are in harmony...of the Hive Mind.

[@kaitlyn__L]

I do prefer the Dominion as a dark reflection, since they act so much like Imperial Rome. I know the Romulans take the most explicit Roman aesthetics, but the Dominion seem to act the most Roman. Well, of course it depends which flavour of Rome you choose… since it was around so long. But, for instance; showing up and saying “we’ll give you relative autonomy so long as you send us taxes and give us expertise when we demand it; otherwise we’ll send in our military” was how Rome expanded for a long time.

[@Talon19]

At a base level, the Borg are also driven by an ideology: assimilation and advancement. This ideology could be applied to almost any civilization and is IN FACT the core premise of Federation. “To seek out new life and new civilizations”

[@CertifiablyIngame]

The motivation is key!

[@ronmaximilian6953]

The Borg are a dark reflection of the federation. It takes the isolationist fear of assimilation of their culture to the next degree where people are assimilated against their wills. Instead of cultural exchange and progress occurring because of individual and group desire for improvement, all free will is taken away. That being said, Borg do have additional elements. They aren't just made up of forcefully assimilated drones, but also the vast majority would have been drones born into the collective, never knowing individual thought.

[@SKy_the_Thunder]

Post-Janeway and the Shattering of the original Collective, Star Trek is in the perfect position to use the Borg for _all_ those roles at the same time. We've seen plenty of different ways Borg disconnected from the rest of the hivemind behave. Some return to their original personalities, larger groups will often form "sub-collectives" until they can re-integrate into the Collective proper, others end up in a vegetative state with little self-awareness and a lack of tasks, etc... This can be used to set up various different post-Borg factions. There may be several competing Collectives that all are just different enough to see the others as corrupted versions that need to be forcefully re-integrated. These can range from variants where the Queen puppets all her drones, over ones that only use a "queen" as a communication nexus (like Locutus), all the way to variants that reject the concept of a queen outright and act like those we were originally introduced to. Then there may be friendly "collectives" like the Cooperative, and various versions of de-assimilated refugees and resistance groups. But you can go full on "monster" as well, with for example a small "Borg marauder" faction, which are mindlessly obsessed with assimilating others, to the point that they have "enhanced" their bodies so much, they barely look humanoid anymore, in order to be more efficient hunters... Plenty of paths to explore, as long as they don't try to do everything at once with them...

[@Karn0010]

Felt this after TNG, the Borg needed to be put on the back burner. Voyager made them less of a threat and just kind of there. Like in horror movies where not seeing the monster, or just very small bits of it is scarier than seeing it all the time, that is how the Borg were best used. The Borg were great in their initial introduction and in Best of Both Worlds. Trek is at its best when the character's principles are pushed to their limit or beyond. It is why so much of later DS9 worked too. Trek was good at having antagonists and not villains, that is what made it so good. Antagonists are not bad they are just against the protagonist.

[@jwalesoutlaw3294]

This exactly. Having an entire quadrant of thr Galaxy dominated / infested by the Borg was alot less scary than if they kept it to rare encounters where a wandering cube annihilates fleets and unlucky colonies

[@TheAsvarduilProject]

Emet-Selch is always welcome on discussions of antagonists. Good play Rick.

[@CertifiablyIngame]

Well, he did ask us to remember

[@marcellinma6169]

The Borg in many ways presents the antithesis to Starfleet and the United Federation of Planets, even moreso than the Terran Empire of the Mirror Universe. At it's core, Starfleet represents the value of curiosity and cooperation. They believe that different peoples can contribute their unique talents and perspectives towards their mutual benefit and that knowledge and exploration of the universe is valuable in and of itself. The Borg have a similar goal of mutual benefit but fail to recognize that the unique talents which contribute to that common good arise from one's individual experiences. Instead, they see individuality as a hinderance due to the conflicts that arise from it. Similarly, the Borg's rejection of individuality has robbed them of the ability to innovate or advance on their own. Thus, they constantly need an influx of new species and cultures to assimilate lest they fall behind the other galactic superpowers. For the Borg, exploration is more like hunting for new prey to devour so they can stave off death a little longer.

[@marcellinma6169]

As an addendum, the Dominion could also be considered an ideological anthesis to Starfleet and the Federation. Like Starfleet, the Dominion is an organization composed of multiple species who work towards a common goal by contributing their different strengths and talents. The difference is that while the Federation relies on voluntary cooperation, the Dominion relies on coercion and deception. Some races in the Dominion, such as the Vorta and Jem'Hadar, are kept in line through a combination of genetic tampering, chemical dependency, and plain-old indoctrination while other races are strong-armed into the Dominion by its vast military and the fear of Changeling replacements.

[@stingyblue8189]

It’s like Janeway told 7, the Borg don’t explore space or study history. They assimilate it. They ingest it. I like your hunting analogy. They are like the Hirogen in some sense. But, instead of hunting individuals, they hunt entire civilizations. The Dominion, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians, and the Breen are all interstellar empires. But, so, is the Federation. They assimilated the members worlds that make it up and remade them in Humanity’s image and likeness. Tukuvma and the other Klingons were right to fear the Federation be wary of the words, “We come in peace.” So many conquerors from history have said the same thing before conquering the native peoples. The Western powers are notorious for doing it. The Federation is the United States of the Alpha and Beta quadrants. It claims to be a democracy, but it’s an expansionist power just like the rest. It’s just dishonest about it.

[@shaunryan-izzard8110]

To me, when done right, the Borg are the ultimate expression of the Kobashi Maru principle. They are so alien to most species in Star Trek, so singular in their purpose, that victories should be fleeting and extremely costly. They are the Star Trek equivalent of the Daleks. There is no negotiation, no diplomacy. They will always come back, never be truely defeated. They are the exception to the rule that, again, was so eloquently spoken of in Doctor Who "You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn! How many hearts will be broken! How many lives shattered! How much blood will spill until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning. Sit down and talk!". You simply can't with the Borg.

[@Momo-tc7sc]

I love the Borg and, while they’ve been over-utilized lately, I don’t think we’ve seen the last of them. I just pray we never get an origin story because nothing penned in the writers room can ever hope to be as good as the mystery left unexplained.

[@UGNAvalon]

I think the most frightening origin story would be the most mundane: they started cybernetically augmenting themselves, then joined a collective hive mind to pool their mental resources, then they lost their “humanity” as they forgot what individuality & consent meant. Just like the Cybermen in Doctor Who, it just shows that their kind is inevitable, and would continue to appear again & again.

[@chrisbingley]

I'd argue that the Klingons were never true antagonists in TOS. They were the foil to the Federation. With the Romulans being the antagonists.

[@mesner5x]

I think using Star Trek's Online faction of "The Cooperative" was a good plot point. Former drones that formed a new collective but one where each drone has autonomy, or a choice to try to return to their old lives. Yet they still use the Borg's technology, hive mind, and adaptation against them. The other side of that coin in Season 1 of Picard was a very horrifying and sympathetic tone with former drones. And showing various reactions to being disconnected from the hive mind. The collective literally destroying their minds, leaving mental scars to some akin to severe Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Or those who come out relatively unscathed such as Seven of Nine and Hugh. To that end, if Star Trek wants another unyielding foe to give the Borg a little break, I say just make a canon version of the Iconian War

[@BeyondDaX]

or the T'zenkethi. In STO, they were rather fearsome for a time

[@raideurng2508]

Seven had some pretty severe lasting trauma that took years of work with the Doctor, Janeway, and Tuvok to address.

[@pojuwolf]

Rick, I have been watching Star Trek since 1965 when I could at my Grandparent's home in St. Louis, Missouri. My home iof Columbia MO only had two broadcast stations, 8 and 12 and neither carried it. I immediately loved the stories and the ships. I stumbled upon Certifiably Ingame a month ago and have since been watching the continuing series. Brilliant. And perfectly intune with the values of Star Fleet as they have changed. I had tired of the Star Trek Universe after Enterprise, and not being a gamer, I missed out on the Star Trek Online. You have revitalized my interest and love of the stories. Thank you. Incidentally I agree with you assessment of the Borg. I still remember ST: First Contact and the horror of the collective. It did get me thinking. The drones are not just terrifying assimilators, they are victims ...poignantly shown as Picard tore open a recently assimilated Star Fleet officer on the pool table. It was extremely eye opening.

[@Darmok_]

I think Voyager overused the Borg a bit but part of of why 90s Trek was so compelling was knowing that the Borg were out there and would always be this constant implied unstoppable threat.

[@RandomYT05_01]

Until new trek decided to kill them off. Honestly though, even if they did kill off a chunk of the Borg, they're too big to be completely wiped out, and could very easily be brought back in later installments.

[@Darmok_]

@@RandomYT05_01 I mean the Queen has died in canon three times (or twice if that was indeed the same Queen from Endgame and not a botched attempt to regenerate her) so I don’t think death really sticks to the Borg for very long.

[@jaketheripper7385]

Overused? Idk about that... Maybe in certain ways at least. Out of 172 total 'Voyager' episodes spanning seven seasons, only 14 individual episodes centered around the Borg, and around half of these were two-part storylines (an important fact to remember I think). Thats about 8% of Voyager's episodes, so ultimately that means around 8% of the depicted conflict throughout Voyager's runtime is focused on the Borg. Not that much in the grand scheme of things if you think about it... Now keep in mind that that Voyager takes place entirely in the Delta Quadrant, which is supposed to be the Borg's home territory and where they exert the bulk of their power in the galaxy, if not the universe. There are a few references made to vessels and/or contingents of Borg being dispatched to galaxies outside of the Milky Way, and it has been established that the Borg transwarp network has connections leading to multiple galaxies. This means that the Collective is easily a galactic spanning power, if not quite possibly a multi-galaxy to universal power/threat, and considering the fact that they have a habit of sneaking into other dimensions and even other timelines when it suits them, they could very well be considered a multidimensional/interdimensional threat. Point being that the Borg are swinging a quite the astronomically sized metaphorical dick around, and their most prominent home turf where they're likely to have the most ubiquitous pressence is probably the Delta Quadrant of the Milky Way Galaxy (as far as we're aware). With that in mind, it's really nothing short of a miracle that Voyager wasn't in near constant conflict with the Borg, or at the very least making concerted efforts to avoid them at every possible turn. I know that this is at least *mentioned* in passing a number of times throughout Voyager's run, but I wish that the writers would have done a bit more to SHOW this to us rather than just give it some lip service from time to time when it had been a minute since the Borg popped by to do a little assimilating... Hell, the Kazon appear in nearly just as many episodes as a primary antagonist and they were nothing but a bunch of primitive, backwards, inept, disorganized, self-aggrandizing, short-sighted morons; truly nothing but an annoyance or a minor inconvenience at best by comparison. Frankly idk why so much time was even spent on the Kazon, and the whole twist subplot with Seska being a Cardassian agent who then joined/manipulated the Kazon and everything was just so incredibly unnecessary and downright tedious. I think it's quite safe to say that it is pretty universally agreed among the fandom that the whole "Kazon arc" is about as crap as Voyager can get and nobody really believes the Kazon to be a worthy or interesting adversary in the slightest. The only thing that made them even remotely threatening was the fact that there were so many of them and that each of the various sects could be rather unpredictable. Even when the Kazon did finally manage to organize and unite for a short time, they were still relatively laughable due to their drastically inferior technology and their tendency towards petty bickering and duplicitous behavior; with every Maj just waiting for the next opportunity to grab power when it was most convenient. At any rate, I think the Seska subplot could have been more interesting if it had been handled a bit differently. Maybe if they would have made her a minor recurring antagonist on her own for a few episodes before having it all culminate in a big two-part finale kinda like they did (only minus the Kazon ), it could have worked out a bit better. All the same though I think that most people - including myself - would have been perfectly content if that entire concept had been abandoned/excluded completely and they just unceremoniously killed her off. Like she dies towards the end of one episode, then cold open on Chakotay delivering her eulogy the next episode before transitioning into a scene of the Ma'quis crew members having their own seperate little private memorial after the funeral where they're all drinking and reminiscing. At some point during their memorial they're interrupted by someone or some event that proceeds layout the introductory circumstances to setup the primary conflict of the episode. Follow through with the setup and queue that opening sequence... Problem solved. See? I can do this shit! 😆😅 But yeah, I really don't think anyone would have kicked up much of a fuss over the loss of (insert rank here) Seska. See I can't even remember what Starfleet rank she held aboard Voyager or as a member of the Ma'quis under Chakotay's command, and I bet you can't either! lol. I can't even recall her last/full name, or if the writers even bothered to give her one or if it's ever actually spoken aloud at any point in an episode of 'Voyager'... I've watched the entire series all the way through at least half a dozen times too, not including my original viewing as a child during it's initial airing and release from 1995 to 2001, or when I watched it in syndication. Seska's character is just that inconsequential and forgettable, and made all the more boring and obnoxious by the fact that she was only made into a threat by means of the power she exerted through the Kazon. Ugh, I just hate that... Honestly part of me feels like that's one of the main reasons why I dislike her. Anyway I digress and I'm getting off track here. The point is that in some ways - maybe in a lot of ways - the Borg perhaps should have been depicted as a much more dire, insurmountable, and ever-present threat to Voyager in particular considering the circumstances, and some may even argue that there weren't *enough* Borg episodes... I don't really agree with that, but I do feel that perhaps the writers could have made greater efforts to depict the Borg as a more consistent, inescapable, constantly looming threat. Again, I don't necessarily mean like they should have built more episodes around direct primary confrontations with the Borg (since what we were given seems to have already demystified and otherwise neutered the Borg and any threat they may have posed to an extent for many fans as it is, unfortunately), but maybe actually *shown* the crew of Voyager taking certain precautions and making various preparations such as specialized improvements to defenses and other ship systems designed and intended exclusively to combat/resist the Borg, as well as undergoing alert status drills and taking part in augmented and/or newly developed training simulations programmed to help better prepare the ship and her crew to repel, outsmart, and outmaneuver the Borg. Tuvoc could have been depicted arranging security/combat drills and programming training simulations with Harry. By Season 4 these efforts could have been shown to be the work of both Tuvoc and Seven of Nine, and eventually perhaps even Echeb could have offered some assistance and insight as well. Some of these efforts and preparations could have then led the crew into encountering some other conflict or some other kind plot-driving anomaly or force, whether it be through the efforts to acquire new technology or gain some kind of advantage over the Borg, even it only meant it would be effective for their next encounter only... You know what I mean. This kind of thing happened all the time throughout 'Voyager' and served as the catalyst for a number of episodes, although it was usually the result of trying to find some way back to the Alpha Quadrant or shave a few more years off their journey. I'm saying they could have done the same thing, but instead of that catalyst being a potential path back to the Alpha Quadrant, maybe make it some kind of new defense against or advantage over the Borg. Make the goal of keeping the Borg at bay - or at the very least avoiding direct confrontation - just as equally important to the mission as getting Voyager back home. Make the crew practically always on edge and the Borg is a constant source of anxiety. Even if they are not traveling through Borg dominated territory, the possibility of Borg contact and the fear of assimilation should remain a clear and present danger regardless, so Voyager's crew is always on the hunt for new and innovative methods of gaining some long-forgotten security and peace of mind in regards to the ever-looming threat of the Collective... Hopefully I'm making some sense here. Maybe I'm totally missing the mark here, but this has always been the way I've thought about it. I figure this would have been the best way to go about it without making the Borg seem ineffectual. If executed properly it could have made them out to be the pervasive and unyielding "big bad" they were perhaps meant to be and the one that fans were kinda hoping to see. Also it would have been important to let the Collective get their proverbial licks in too... Allow them to create some actual loss for Voyager and the crew that sticks around for longer than the runtime of a single episode and doesn't reset back to status-quo at the beginning of the next one (a big problem with a lot of Trek in general, but especially with 'Voyager' in particular). When the consequences don't create any lasting implications, it greatly reduces the stakes and makes your antagonists far less menacing and the narrative that much less interesting or compelling. If anything this was probably one of the biggest issues with 'Voyager' by far, especially with an enemy/antagonistic force as seemingly imposing and large-scale as the Borg Collective were otherwise described to be.

[@flag5enemyinsight397]

I found that a really interesting thing about the 'Lower decks' show was that they changed the Pakleds into a real threat, it was still more of a comedy show but it shows what a few tweaks to a known antagonist might bring. Also I loved how every Federation ship was Enterprise and every female protagonist was Janeway.

[@KaiCrafted]

I love the way the Borg are a mirror to the Federation, I think this channel may have first highlighted that for me and it has become a core part of my appreciation for them. I would like to see more of the Borg but only if the story can focus on the ways that the UFP and Borg are alike. Get past the tech arms races and let the ex-Bs rest for a while, talk about how often the Federation is accused of consuming worlds for technological gain, how Starfleet diminishes some individuals (despite claiming to celebrate them), there are more and I'm sure a good writer could build a story in there.

[@santillo1]

The homogenized nature of the federation and borg is one of the most interesting aspects to me. I would love to see a ‘are we the baddies’ story line about a culture unknowingly losing its identity because of its inclusion to the federation

[@pills-]

There's the whole concept of colonialism that kind of gets glossed over in much of Trek. Some random episodes touch on it, but i think DS9 was the only series to put some thought into it. And there's still a lot of ground on the concept that Trek hasn't addressed.

[@keithtorgersen9664]

One of the nuances discussed in Voyager is the episode where Seven of Nine had to deal with the whole issue of forcibly reassimilating the 3 drones because she was afraid of becoming an individual at that time.

[@j.j.6327]

I like the idea of a villain like the Borg. I think it’s great to have an antagonist in the galaxy that can make two enemies, possibly, stop fighting each other and temporarily align to fight off a third foe before going back to trying to kill each other. If not the Borg then would still be great for our storytelling to have a villain of that nature involved in someway.

[@5XXFelipe]

I'm not much of playing episodes in star trek online but i thought it was pretty mind blowing when i played one of the recent ones and saw even a tholian allying with the player.

[@j.j.6327]

@@5XXFelipe I really wanna get into Star trek online. But I have an aversion to MMOs. I tried once a long time ago and just didn’t vibe with it. But still. That’s fuckin cool as shit. And I bet it was cool to see happen.

[@5XXFelipe]

@@j.j.6327 with ALL its problems, it still is the only full fledged game that scratches the star trek itch unfortunately. I'm not sure i'd recommend It for a new player (although if you really want to, now is definitely the best time to join as there is a yearly event campaign going on that gives some really good stuff for free). With that being said, i love my temporal operator caitian, whose met her own future self to prepare for the iconian war, became an admiral 11 months after graduating, got borgicized and just recently, enjoyed dancing on risa during summer.

[@j.j.6327]

@@5XXFelipe it’s definitely not the only game. Try Star Trek:Resurgence. It’s set in the 24th century and is made by former telltale employees. You play as a bridge officer and an engineer. First video game I’ve ever gotten platinum for. But to be fair it’s not hard to do. But I love the thing.

[@5XXFelipe]

@@j.j.6327 Sorry i should've been more specific: I meant the only big multiplayer one i know (i prefer multiplayer games, barely play single player ones, but i know some are great). The only other is that VR one but i lack VR for now. However i'll play resurgence some time, thanks.

[@singletona082]

Honestly I love the niche the borg represent. If you aren't able to seperate the soldiers from the army, from the system of hostility and erasure of self? The only option you have is to fight, or run. HOWEVER if you are able to overcome, trick, confound, or otherwise work around the larger opressive system you can unplug persons from the whole and helpthem regain a sense of self seperate from that overwhelming 'THE INDAVIDUAL IS IRRELEVANT THERE IS ONLY THE WHOLE., FORM CONSENSUS AND BE SUBSUMED.' The Borg asks several thought provoking questions of us. Set them to one side yes, please do.... And let them change with the times to be something more than just the rehash of what was. I agree with you in your notion. there NEEDSto be that enemy where negociation isn't an option. Maybe you can save a few here and there, but short of an impossible scale Event? You cannot save everyone. That concept is... SADLY relevant.

[@Robert-sm5cb]

I have no idea if it's a useful take, but I always found the Borg scarier as a kid in TNG when it seemed like they grabbed you and then chopped off or otherwise removed parts of your body as opposed to the internal change wrought by nano-machines. There might be an angle leaning in to the early implied body-horror aspect of that, but I have no idea really. Just thinking out loud.

[@timothyapplegate2881]

Crazy how showing a character or groups of characters in the worst of times is so much more interesting after establishing and showing them in the best of times.

[@joshuahillerup4290]

I think it might be interesting in a new antagonist to explore what "intelligence" even means. The Borg hivemind was a bit like that (although then they lazily walked it back with the Borg Queen), but I think they could take it further. What about something that's intelligent and technologically capable, but doesn't even have something akin to language for the universal translator to work on?

[@barrybend7189]

I would take a cue from the Halo franchise but change a little with the Borg. The queen isn't the overarching leader. She's a support construct built to allow spontaneous tactical or strategic actions to safeguard the collective. They are either created from scratch from a biomechanical template or uplifted from a drone. Either case they are the collective personified. Outliers exist like the Frontier day Borg attack queen but the collective is always priority. They are a tactical weakness like adjunct drones like locutus but are needed in times were a advisory mind is necessary. For Flood analogs vinculums are Proto graveminds, Queens are graveminds and higher order ( if needed) queens are Keyminds. The borg will always appear in one form or another ( control) something would fill the niche.

[@AceParty]

I totally agreed. Sometime, you just need the "bad guy" that is bad for being evil or similar, and that's it. Not everything can be switched, otherwise they may be less value on the teaching of what's good and bad for the characters, audiences etc. I truly hope the collective is not dead after Picard season 3. This is why Star Wars also rely so much still on the empire and Sw legends relied on the imperial remnants and the Yuuzhan Vong.

[@whophd]

“cannot be bargained with” is the best element of the Daleks too

[@Modemus69]

Hopped in quickly to say: Your use of STO to illustrate ships got me into STO in late '21, and Ive been loving it ever since! So, thankyou!

[@Jaya-zn7vr]

What's STO?

[@TheAncientAstronomer]

​@@Jaya-zn7vrStar Trek online.

[@Methazar]

​@@Jaya-zn7vr it's a free to play MMO, on pc and Xbox, might be on PlayStation to. Good game to play, with tons of things to do

[@HammerJammer81]

damnnn ... I began playing in Afghanistan in 2010 upon its release. Bought my original copy in Dubai lol.

[@danilejai7801]

Ok this comment has convinced me to finally check it out.

[@daviddyster4145]

After Picard, I think the Borg should be placed on the back burner.

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

We got far more than enough of them in voyager, even, let alone first contact and it’s....weird choices

[@moneyonmars3754]

It would have been interesting if they had ever showed them conquering worlds in a meaningful way then just telling us how super dangerous they were, trust me bro. Voyager just made them seem generic and inept. More of an occasional nuisance you could deal with than an all consuming threat.

[@johnsteiner3417]

@@moneyonmars3754 Show not tell. Important advice to any writer.

[@daviddyster4145]

@@moneyonmars3754 Yes they did. Give me the Iconian War any day.

[@sdwone]

Indeed! Even though I did enjoy Picard Season Three, I'll admit, even though I think the Borg is a bad ass and deadly fan favourite enemy... I was a little disappointed that it was them... Again! Taking up their umpteenth role as the bad guys! I was actually hoping for something different! Like maybe the Pah Wraiths or something else entirely! But yeah... Damn Good Concept! That's just been overplayed far too many times! We need something... New now! Or a fresh look at previous adversaries. That schism in the Dominion looks like an interesting start!

[@Nick_Kearney]

I completely agree with you. A well used unstoppable force in a work of fiction can make for some of the best enemies because of how it effects the heroes. We saw in Picard that the Federation was still very scared by those events. If we do get Star Trek Legacy I hope we see the Federation overcoming the Dominion and Borg era thinking and rediscover the spirit of exploration, while still being able to tussle with some bad guys.

[@boduke9428]

I'm never forget watching my first Borg episode. It was the 2 part season finale/ premier when Picard was assimilated. As a child i ran outside after the first part and pretended the borg were on the way. Best of both worlds made me a lifetime trek fan and Discovery made me wish I'd never watched any of it. I miss star trek.

[@Novarcharesk]

Plenty of New Trek is amazing, hon.

[@polishedpebble4111]

Borg need a reboot. With arguments having equal weight that they're evil or the greater good, but what can't be denied is their overwhelming power. What I'd like to see: When a person is first assimilated, they're first connected to the hive mind collective. They mentally enter a dream state where they live out their entire life in nanoseconds. That lifetime is uploaded to the collective so they can experience it. NOW, each Borg, all the billions trillions of them, those lifetimes are then relived by the the newly assimilated person, one by one. That person is no longer "John" but a hybrid of "John" and "Eric". Each life time feels just as real as their original, and because of that they're a new "person". This repeats billions and trillions of times for each life experience assimilated. The result is every single Borg is the same personality/psychologically - all their experiences are now the same. The Borg are mentally the same, now basically clones, but they need to be physically the same. All the biology and body types are homogenized. Some legs extended, some legs shortened, some organs added, some organs removed, etc. Each Borg effectively now, due to the hive mind, has an infinite amount of knowledge, a trillion eyes, hands, etc. To be a Borg it feels like you're a god. An entire civilization that is basically you. You could do anything.. so when a Borg is disconnected, they go insane. It would be the most profound, most extreme lobotomy possible (other than out right death). And because the Borg look weird, act weird, and go insane when disconnected, the greater Star Trek world think of the Borg as wrong or evil.

[@Novarcharesk]

I haven't thought of this particular angle myself, but something similar. The intoxicating, seductive nature of the Borg hasn't ever been touched on. The closest it's gotten is the panicky 'need' to return to what was familiar, not because it was a sublime existence.

[@stingyblue8189]

The Voyager series personified and humanized the Borg through Seven of Nine. My favorite Borg-related episodes were the Battle of Dragon’s Teeth parts 1 & 2 where we learn how long the Borg have been around and their early history as an up and coming power in the Delta Quadrant via the testimony of Gedrin, a Vaadwuar scientist. I also love “Survival Instinct” where 7 of 9 was reunited with 2 of 9, 3 of 9 and 4 of 9 and we learned that she forced them to reassimilate into the Collective. Of course, Scorpion 1 & 2 were great where learn about their war with Species 8472 aka the Undine. “Mortal Coil” was another favorite of mine. 7 revived Neelix from the dead with her nanoprobes and we learned about Borg immortality. “One Small Step” was great too because we learned about how the Borg dealt with an energy draining spacial anomaly. I don’t believe that the Borg were totally destroyed after Janeway infected them with a virus 🦠 Only the Delta Quadrant transwarp hub was destroyed with its queen. The other 5 that led into the other three quadrants were still intact with their queens. So, the Borg will be back. Rest assured.

[@AdmRose]

The Borg were Star Trek’s xenomorph - they can’t be reasoned with, contained and 9/10 if you see them coming it’s already too late.

[@Dalek97]

The nature of the drones as essentially prisoners of the Borg is why I still believe "I, Borg" had a greater moral dilemma than "In the Pale Moonlight". End future suffering for sure but condemn countless innocents to death when they could be saved and cured.

[@AC20sAkimbo]

Who cares about a random drone when the entire alpha quadrant is a stake?

[@Dalek97]

Starfleet officers.

[@ModestNeophyte]

I believe the Borg are a personification of one of humanity's most eminent worries in the real world. star trek has always been allegory for modern day societal puzzles.

[@AnthonySmith-wc8ky]

Not even just one but several. The fear of losing individuality. The fear of rampant AI. The fear of the monster in the dark just waiting to hunt you. Etc.

[@benjamindrayton1380]

​@AnthonySmith-wc8ky , there's also the psychology of mob mentality. Becoming part of the mob and agreeing/taking part in group actions that you wouldn't even consider on your own because "resistance is futile." An extreme example would be to become part of an extreme ideology, like the Nazis. When it started as a small political party it probably seemed no different to the others, apart from their policies. But after you got involved it started to change, but the change was so subtle you never realised how far you'd gone until it was over. I suppose after writing all that a more succinct way to say it would be radicalisation.

[@347Jimmy]

I think they're a perfect antithesis to the Federation, trying for the same goal (a perfect society which brings all races and techs together to make a whole that is more than the sum of its parts) but by opposite means, and with no moral consideration.

[@benjamindrayton1380]

@@347Jimmy yeah, the federation seek unity and celebrate the differences between member races. The Borg seek unity through aggressive conformity.

[@347Jimmy]

@@benjamindrayton1380 exploration and diplomacy vs absolute conquest 👍

[@RyogaHabiki]

Plot Twist - The Borg Assimilate Agimus and make him their new King If they can get Jeffrey Combs to reprise his voice of course. Afterwards they assimilate the Whale Probe and V'Ger and merge them into a new super-weapon, with Agimus of Borg captaining it of course. His ship is crewed by assimilated changelings. The nanites are fused with each cell in their bodies. Not allowing for more complex forms, but they can "fuse". Walk into a room filled with mist, it feels like mist, looks like mist, and you are assimilated before you finish that thought.

[@clayrush1]

I think this my favorite vid from you.

[@JohnDoe-wh6dd]

The Borg also represents a perversion of Starfleet’s mission statement. The Federation’s mission is to better themselves by seeking out new life and new civilizations and learning from those new cultures and ideas. The Borg have a very similar mission statement, they wish to better themselves but instead doing it slowly they just assimilate the entire species and skip all the diplomatic stuff in the middle. The Borg are a perfect example of the how these grand ideas like “bettering yourself” can easily become something horrific very, very quickly.

[@raideurng2508]

I know I'll get pushback but the best borg episode is still ENT's Regeneration. Two drones are all it takes to take over entire vessels and you see in real time how quickly they go from a concern to a real threat. And even when seemingly defeated, the lingering anxiety of what is to come is the only prize. Also the episode just had amazing music that made them a lot more menacing.

[@jonleonard1555]

I wonder, would there be a circumstance where, due to someone's physical or psychological situation, joining the Borg would be an improvement? There was that one episode of Voyager, when Chakotay was was made part of a small collective, but that was really only because they lacked the technology to heal him, like the Doctor in his sickbay likely could have. Would there be people that feel so disconnected and remote from society and regret it, that they'd be assimilated just to feel useful and productive? Could there be a helpful and beneficial use for the Borg that had not been considered, like in Doctor Who when Missy tried to give a Cyberman army to the Doctor to "right all the wrongs" in the universe?

[@pills-]

Honestly, i can think of better circumstances for choosing euthanasia than i can for joining the Borg. And they're not all that different. They both end the free will of a person- but only one of those choices kills the person. "Don't worry Jimmy, we sent Fido to live on a farm -with- as all the other dogs."

[@jweav151]

Seven's initial reactions to being disconnected were so good. It was such a great contrast to Picard and gave more insight to what being part of the collective does to the individuals. Being assimilated as an adult and only for a short time vs being assimilated since as a child and spending years in the collective. Picard hated himself for what he had done as Locutus, while Seven almost had a mental breakdown because they wouldn't let her go back to the collective.

[@beangrff]

No, I'm sorry, I've had WAY more than enough of them. The only way they can be slightly interesting is if we have a story about the Borg--or some faction of the Borg--and the Federation reaching an understanding. The Borg as a villain have become silly. The problem with Orc-like unreasonable villains is you get the same episode over and over: the enemy is "scary," they ALMOST win, and the Good Guys just barely manage to prevail. Then it gets silly, as in late VOY and Picard, and it becomes pointless.

[@arcadiusvincentius3296]

The entire idea that everything can be reasoned with though is absolutely childish and its refreshing to see something that is complex as a threat but, at the end of the day, something that needs to be fought against.

[@Kirbydudette333]

I completely agree with this and I think the borg need to be put on the backburner for a long time before I'll be excited seeing them again.

[@beangrff]

@@arcadiusvincentius3296 Fine. But then we still have the problem of seeing the same story over and over again. We should not have anymore Borg stories, because they're just silly at this point.

[@pills-]

I agree that they need to be put on the backburner for awhile. But the only reason the Borg have become silly is because the writers aren't putting in the thought of the ethical dilemmas they pose (or that they don't have enough time to do it in 1 hour segments). The Borg are the epitome of "people who hurt, hurt others" and people write books exploring just that one concept, not even mentioning the others that crop up.

[@arcadiusvincentius3296]

@@beangrff Sounds more like the writers are shit rather than the borg is bad.

[@casbot71]

IMHO the bid mistake with the Borg was giving them a *Queen* for First Contact, and there was a simple alternative. Have them Assimilate _a new Locutus of Borg._ A new focal point for the Borg to be able to interact as an individual for the dramatic confrontation, that they wanted for First Contact and casual audiences, but not destroying the essence of the Borg by turning them into moustache twirling villains who explain their master plan to the captured heroes. The Borg Queen has made the Borg into another just another evil mastermind with an army of minions. They were far better as _'A force of Nature'_ that just comes at you without malice, you're just an objective in their path. The faceless terror. They were basically cyber-Zombies. Now imagine how less scary Zombies would be if there was a Zombie King you could trick and defeat? And with the Borg assimilating a Emissary as their standard MO they become even more scary and formidable. The Borg assimilate a notable individual of a species to lead in the assimilation of that species, as they would know the strengths and weaknesses of that species best. And could come up with bespoke strategies suited for assimilating their own species. And if they fail, then a different individual is chosen as the focal point of the Borgs invasion, and the Borg attempt a different strategy under the direction of their new Emissary/Advisor. It makes them terrifyingly unpredictable and original. You better hope the Borg don't assimilate your best strategic thinker as that mind will now be turned against you. And for First Contact the best option for a new Locutus is Pulaskus of Borg. Having Dr Pulaski visting the Enterprise-E at the start of the film, it makes sense and doesn't seem out of the ordinary. She's there checking the integration of new medical systems or whatever. And she's got a shared history and backstory with the crew/cast. A few lines to show the casual audience She's not a redshirt of the week (now the rotating Helmsman) and the fans think she's back for the films as a extra cast member or whatever. *Then she gets Assimilated.* And the Borg chose her to be their new coordinator for Assimilating Humanity. The moment when there's the big reveal that Dr Pulaski is not only a Borg, but is 'the Borg in charge' would be high impact drama, and could even be horror if played that way. And this neatly explains the Borg's new obsession with Data. Dr Pulaski was always fascinated with the question of Data's sentience, that could carry on to Pulaskus of Borg. Just a scene before the Borg Assimilated her of Pulaski and Data having a deep conversation about his nature, prehaps with Pulaski apologising about her behaviour when she was on the Enterprise-D. Discussing his emotion chip and prehaps even her expressing sympathy for Data's daughter Lal... 'I also lost a daughter Data, can I ask you, does the emotion chip make you remember that time differently now?" Picard was at heart a military man, that's why his strategy was a bull run at a (then) lightly defended Earth to take the Federation at its centre in one fell swoop. He knew the weakness of the Federation at the time was that Starfleet was complacent about an all out attack and didn't have concentrated defences near Earth. Pulaskus would have a different perspective on how to Assimilate Humanity. She could even be the origin of the time travel shenanigans idea if the script could have her Assimilated before the time travel, but that may be difficult. But she's now the new Borg character for the heroes to argue with, without destroying the _'purity'_ of the Borg as a faceless horror. And for ultimate drama in First Contact, they are unable to liberate her from the Borg, and have to kill Pulaskus in order to succeed in saving Earth and the future. A poignant ending for the heroes as they morn their fallen former friend who became, against her will, their implacable foe. And then that opens a lot of potential for future Borg stories, with new Emissarys making the Borg try different approaches. And it means the threat never stops, the Borg can always try a new approach based around the perspective of who they have chosen to be their planner. For Voyager what if a crewmember of Voyager had been Assimilated as the new Emissary to deal with them? And the Kes/Harry cast member death match ends with Harrius of Borg (or is that Kimus of Borg). Harry is the new Emissary. And that can ironically explain why Voyager keeps winning, Paris is able to predict Kimus's stratagems. Anytime a new Borg plot is needed, a new Borg Emissary explains why they are behaving differently. And a old minor character can be cast as them......

[@carnifexor3010]

I wish that there was a conclusion or next steps shown within Star Trek Picard regarding the Borg & ending of season 2

[@yishumate]

Sympathetic villains are great, but you do occasionally need some Space Bastards

[@saint-g7449]

Voyager defanged them. Picard took them to the back of the shed.

[@mikefuston4494]

first contact ruined the borg

[@MeNoOther]

The Cybermen go through the same as the Borg. Love to see a Cybermen and Borg cross-over

[@1derss]

Conjecture - "an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation." Please do more of these.

[@desdenova1]

I'm a simple being - I see Emet-Selch and I will subscribe. One of my all time favorite tragic villains.

[@martechi4236]

It's easy to preach about ideals of harmony and understanding if every foe encountered is tailor-made to accommodate these ideas - like Klingons, who may be warlike and all, but also come with a built-in honor-system that's easy to grasp and utilize by our heroes to resolve any issue. Star Trek needs the Federation to confront other species and cultures that are less compatible and more dangerous for its ideals to have any weight. I believe this is also important for handling factions like the Borg. For the Borg to be effective, they need to remain partially this cosmic, incomprehensible threat. If they are broken down to a single queen and her motivation, much of what makes them so valuable to the storytelling is lost.

[@bgabbitas]

Love your videos. X

[@keithwiggins3131]

Star trek franchise to me made the Borg a shell of it's former self. If anyone saw the mirror universe borg game those borg were nearly unstoppable. Our borg should have been like that.

[@Nightwolf0301]

Whilst yes the Borg are a great enemy that Trek needed. I also agree (especially with the Picard show plots), the Borg need to take a back seat for awhile. And now thanks to technology developments, perhaps relook at the Hive-Mind alien concept?

[@casbot71]

If there's another Trek series, a good "bad guy species" to introduce would be a variation of that insect species concept. A alien species that _just consumes._ They want to feed, have to feed, and intelligent life is their favourite food. They have the ethics and morals of the Tyranids, and there's no chance of reasoning with them like there's no chance of reasoning with a fire ant hive if you're another insect. They may also have the individuality of a Tyranid hive mind (ie none), or they may actually be individual entities, but all dedicated to the hive and completely selfless in that goal. _"We must feed"_ And replicated bodies are not a effective substitute ... or they may actually feed on replicator bodies as a subsistence food, but still have the want of real living meat. _"You exist, we must eat you, that is the way of things."_ As a flip on the trope, perhaps they have no Queens like the traditional insect-like species, they are just all dedicated to their overwhelming prey drive, to the exclusion of everything else. Or they need living prey/host to reproduce in [but this is now stepping on the Gorn retcon/Xenomorphs ..?]. They are also technological, so no Tyranid bioships trope either. But a different ship paradigm can be used. Prehaps with a large number of small ships that interlock and separate as needed? Taking the Suliban Cell ship concept far further. They cannot be reasoned with, and will consume anyone they can. And while the Federation dithers about what to do, several pre warp societies get consumed and their planets cleansed. Do they eat everything leaving a dead husk or only eat the intelligent life, leaving a planet stripped bare of all civilisation. In that case there can be a lead up of clues in that there's a region of space just outside known territory, with M class planets with healthy biospheres but all without intelligent life. And then the horror of a pre contact World which had been previously observed, now in the same condition. And its not the Borg....

[@Paul-yf6lq]

I just thought of another idea the Hirogen species, history and ships. Thanks again!!

[@Numba003]

While I still enjoy the borg, I think they were at their very best in their first two appearances in TNG. They were still so alien, so frightening, and yet so surprisingly morally complex for the Federation to combat while still holding on to their own values. Thank you for this video covering them! God be with you out there, everybody. ✝️ :)

[@arcosin3861]

the borg are one of the things that got me interested in star trek as a kid. I don't really watch the newer series' (nothing after voyager, though I'm sure ill get around to enterprise one day), but I hope they stick around for many years to come. Resistance is futile, after all.

[@CCJJ160Channels]

Great analysis! I was hoping they’d do more with Species 8472 for that reason. Their motivation being similar to the Dominion but instead of control it be exterminated as protection and punishment for the Borg invading fluidic space.

[@samfowler2073]

My pitch for bringing the borg back would be this. A miniseries dealing which begins where the Galactic Barrier starts to weaken, allowing Starfleet to visit other galaxies using Proto-Quantum-slipstream-megadrive-warp. But they find an entire galaxy of super advance sleeping Borg. The Borg at some point arrived in this galaxy took it over completely, advanced massively beyond the abilities of their Milky Way counterparts. They have no idea if these Borg will be hostile when they wake up, no idea how they would stop them. It's a ticking time bomb of a problem as the various powers of the Milky Way devise different approaches, to tackle this universe ending problem. Each solution with it's own moral and practical problems. And everything risking awakening this tidalwave of Borg onto the universe.

[@MichaelScheele]

Species like the Borg are a natural outgrowth of space exploration and the Vulcan concept of IDIC. The Federation encountering novel (to them) species with alien motivations, values, etc. is inevitable. Some, if not most, can be reasoned with; however, there are bound to be a few for whom reaching common ground make take a great deal of time. Assuming the Federation survives that long... If they can, we can see how the Federation adapts; plenty of storytelling opportunities there.

[@SpazzyMcGee1337]

Every Culture needs a Hegemonic Swarm.

[@rubaiyat300]

Yeah I thought it was time to retire them as a constant threat, because they play with their food and at some point soon, the Federation would get munched, especially in this post Voyager era where Starfleet can make trips around the galaxy, which seems to be the one big tech NO NO the Borg will come in overwhelming force to eat you for. But I am disappointed it seems the current writers want to strike them from the board entirely. Just don't see how that serves anyone really. Especially in universe if you are gonna be locking the bold exploratory arm of Starfleet in the Milky Way for at least 800 years more, and at some point even take slipstream and other transwarp tech away from them. And out of universe that the particular allure of the Borg has only gotten more feasible with each passing day, to eliminate them as a dramatic element seems an odd choice.

[@captainyossarian388]

The Borg should've been the 'zombies 'of Star Trek as they were originally presented in their first episode. You can't reason with them, you can't get them back, they are relentless. They are terrifying foes that way, I'm reminded of the way the second drone stared at them when it was infiltrating engineering in Q Squared, like a malevolent giant eyeing an ant.

[@owenwildish331]

The same could be said with the iconic Daleks from Doctor Who, if not more so in Doctor Who's case, I think. People these days often say the Daleks are overused, either forgetting or too young to realise that in Doctor Who, the Daleks essentially made what Doctor Who was, right near the beginning and ARE supposed to be the show's main big bad. To me, it's akin to saying and taking out the Cylons from Battle Star Galactica or the Sith in Star Wars, the Decepticons in Transformers, or even Skeletor or Shredder from Masters of the Universe and Teenage Ninja Turtles, or Magneto from X-Men... Etc. In a sense, the Daleks are Doctor Who, as they were the first evil alien enemy monsters that made Doctor Who so Iconic in the first place, and like the Tardis, would be a constant, even if they were given a break from time to time.

[@UGNAvalon]

I think another good analogue(?) for the Borg are the Replicators from Star Trek. At first they’re just a dumb swarm of robots that consume everything in their path & adapt to your phaser settings (except bullets, the kinetic energy of “fast rock go boom” always works! ;D ). But then they started adapting via gaining sapience, producing individuals that think creatively & can reason. Now they’re much more dangerous in terms of coming up with new ways to outsmart your warfare, but on the flip side, if they can be reasoned with, then they can be negotiated with (or tricked). The problem with that, of course, is that now you have self-repairing robots that have the concept of revenge, and now have trust issues, making them much harder to negotiate with in the future. ….man, I need to marathon Stargate again. 😅

[@Paul-yf6lq]

I do love your channel, I have request could you a video on Species 8472 and thir Bio ships and maybe mention their war with the Borg. You could probably do 2 videos one on ship breakdown and war with the Borg. Keep up the good work and Thank you!!

[@JoacinoDaGona]

The borg are the great antithesis to the Federation and Starfleet: The federation with its humanistic values champions the individual and encourages self-expression and becoming the best version of yourself. And even if you have no special talent, there is always that frontier colony in need of a steady pair of hands where you can find fulfillment. ST II gave us the line of the "needs of the many", but it ended on the opposite note: That with each individual dying, we are all lesser for it. The Borg strip everything away that makes an individual special until only the drone remains and you become a tiny voice in the endless choir that is the hivemind. There can be peace and tranquility in the abdication of daily struggles and responsibility to something greater and a galaxy ruled by the Borg, where no more accidents happen and everyone is at peace. Point is, the borg are not assimilating people for the evulz but view it as a genuine act of compassion.

[@AustynSN]

I think The Borg are an example of a big problem with returning villains in serialized sci-fi/fantasy fiction, particularly comic books. The villain always has to lose for the overall story of the series to continue. When you bring back a villain again and again, they have to lose again and again, so they come to seem like less of a threat each time. I vaguely remember some point a LONG time ago where the editor or some other big-wig at Marvel comics realized this and decreed that Magneto was no longer allowed in guest-star roles for non x-men comics unless he won any battle.

[@jaimebabb9968]

I think that the beauty of Star Trek is that they can always keep meeting new aliens (and threats) as they go farther out in space; I think that, rather than defaulting to the Borg, it's high time that Star Trek added some new threats. That said, I think that part of the appeal of the Borg isn't just that they're a threat, it's that, of all of the alien species, they probably have the single most inhuman mentality. I actually really hope that they end up developing the Jurati-Borg for this reason, since part of the interest is in learning how to live with such an alien mentality.

[@dupersuper1938]

We see in the far future in Lower Decks that we're apparently allies, possibly starting with Juratti's Borg faction in Picard. We also see them as allies in Star Trek Online in the 28th century. That's a good enough endpoint for me. The Federation proving Q and Guinan wrong by making friends with even the Borg. I vote let them rest for a good long while.

[@peterq1978]

completely agree Rick, just like Doctor Who needs the Cybers.

[@Stormonu]

Star Trek doesn't necessarily need the borg, but it does need an implacable enemy. One that, while having a superficial resemblance to us, simply cannot be reasoned or bargained with. There is something just alien enough to our mindset that we will never be able to co-exist with, and whose end goal is to be our doom - or worse, made into them. I think the Jem'Hadar (were they ever to be free of the Changlings) fall into this as much as the borg, and even more enemies could fill this mold if the writers realize this is what we need. Species 8472 was too alien to fit in its initial appearance, though they could have drawn them out as this sort of threat in the episode where they recreated the Academy, had they decided to continue that thread rather than resolve it. For a short while, the Hirogen filled this in Voyager, until they too were eventually overcome (wouldn't it be wild to find out that the Jem'Hadar were gene manipulated Hirogen?)

[@lateefpou2986]

I've been a trek fan since I was 4 8m 52 now. Every word u said are the reasons why I love trek

[@MikeRagnos]

Here’s a thought for future Start Trek plot that just came to my mind. The old insectoid parasitic life form returns and slowly takes over the Federation and the whole Alpha Quadrant. The only species they can’t infect is the Borg due to their nanoprobes which immediately recognise them as hostial and destroy them. So the remnants of Federation and others seek the Borg, the Agnes version from Picard, to build an Alliance and slowly regain control over the Federation. It could be something like DS9 war with Dominium and would definitely need some good writing.

[@MarkChisnall-pw5ms]

I think one of the tricks that was missed with the borg was the use of Data's emotion chip as a weapon.

[@niamhfox9559]

The Borg are interesting in that they are not a people but individuals who were stolen to just be vehicles for the ever consuming tech, whereas the differing species even opposed to the Federation, from Klingons to the Founders are people no matter how alien and are aspects of humanity and all our variety. I think the Borg represent a better mirror of the Federation than the Mirror universe (I am so sick of the mirror universe). Though I do agree, using them as the villain for every conflict is wearing thin.

[@shmuck66]

Before TNG, the inevitable foe portrayed was ourselves. Our own failings, inability to understand, or transcend our current state of mind. That was the real trek. Depth of humanity. Which btw was the whole point Q was trying to make to Picard with the Borg. You can't reason with it, you can't battle it, you can't fool it, you can't run from it. You need to evolve beyond it.

[@luisramos821]

I wonder if you will do a video of the origins of the new ships that came out in the new pack about older star trek games. Would be cool to know them more and your opinion on the ships themselves

[@knightspearhead5718]

Trek needs to constantly bring up more foes to continually evolve the federation with old species making a appearance every now and then like the Klingons for example as brought up here. The issue though is that the universe is always connected like our own worlds history and old enemies end up in the fore front. The problem with the borg is that they had a bit impact on federations history and always are brought up as a result

[@Graham6410]

I would love to see a film or episode about what the Borg might have been like before they became the Borg as we see them in TNG and so on.

[@Matthew-is7zs]

I always liked the Borg for their terror factor and the fact that you fight or you die

[@deaconyates2671]

From a writing standpoint, I think the Borg were probably an easy imagining, essentially, you take the Federation’s beliefs one side of the page and on the other just fill in the opposite. The Frenegi was an attempt to oppose the greed of the 80s but didn’t work because ST is not set during the 1980s. Even Farpoint Station was about facing greed, material possession, and enslavement (80s awesomeness). The Borg as bad guys has run its course because the Federation was changed by facing them, so if you did the same whiteboard comparison, it doesn’t work anymore. Additionally we’re damn near 40 years on for TNG, our current times correlating bad guys have changed, IMO now would be the time for the Frenegi to manifest as the grand enemy, but they’ve been since downgraded to buffoons. You’d almost have to write them like the Cardassians, where their oppression is playing out in another quadrant and militarized Frenegi are becoming an issue. You could throw in a macguffin of acquired tech from say the mirror uni, the borg, or a new unknown. Hell even the spore drive but they keep and torture the space bear. (Disco….oy vey),

[@Trialwolf]

The Borg do need to be put aside for now as they just don't have the impact that they used to (Voyager really destroyed them as a serious threat and Picard just de-fanged them outright). Hopefully they can come up with some new species that can fill the roles for minor or major returns but honestly they should just hold off on the Borg for at least 5-10 years, that way there return can have more impact and they can be re-worked into the more serious threat they were originally meant to be. They need to return to the more unstoppable force they were in Best of Both Worlds with some of the horror elements of First Contact.

[@S1337theoddoneout-ip9xc]

You know, i used to like the borg a lot more before they really expanded the lore. Sometimes is refreshing to have a bi-dimensional evil you can plow through with your Shaxs cannon without any moral conflict. Like the bugs on Klendathu, the borg were a serious threat and demanded your best and brightest to fight them, but with no human traits besides their body plan. And then best of both worlds came and made me realize maybe the borg are worth having a 2nd look into trying to save them.

[@theonlyjacknicole]

Funny thing, this appeared onto my feed as I finished rewatching Picard S3, which saw the end of the Borg.

[@namelessspook7987]

I believe there are still stories to tell with the Borg. However, gone are the days of them being an unstoppable force that consumes and destroys everything in its path. I would like to see more done with the new collective at the end of Picard season 2. I think the XBs in Picard season 1 was an interesting side to see, and that killing Hugh was a serious mistake to the story. As much as I like an enemy that the federation cannot reason with, the Borg for better or worse has been moved beyond that in the franchise.

[@kairon156]

I would like to see multiple factions of borg while most are drones a few could try making break away colonies and such. Starfleet and others have to choose to help the smaller hive minds in hopes of weakening the main Borg hive or do they not allow the smaller hives to assimilate worlds.. Also Species 8472 could make a return at some point. That or another species from a similar dimension.

[@originaluddite]

Initially the Borg felt more amoral than immoral to me. The experience of meeting them was like farmers facing a devastating locust swarm, and I use that as an analogy, but it seems even more apt now that I know the Borg concept began as something insectoid. Indeed, that is why they could later justify having a 'queen'. And it's worth noting that, in something like an ant nest, the queen is not the leader in any human sense, but simply fulfills a vital role within the whole. Having said that, once we had the Queen Borg, or maybe even Lore intruding into their affairs, we had personal conversations, inevitably leading to moral debates, and once that happened you could view the Borg as immoral. It would have been interesting to see the critters from Conspiracy further explored, as that episode promised much but delivered little. Maybe they could be returned to as an implacable enemy at some point...

[@Meshakhad]

I think something like the original idea of an insectoid hive mind could be brought into play. Granted, Star Trek would need to do some work to distinguish them from the Tyranids, Zerg, or any other all-consuming bug race. Using the neural parasites from Conspiracy would be a good start. Perhaps the "mother parasite" is actually a later stage of development, and once someone is infected, there's a narrow window before the parasite consumes the host's brain, at which point the host is nothing but a meat puppet.

[@Monni95]

With the new Borg queen, I'd like to see more splinter groups separate from the single hive mind and one of the splinter groups joining Federation... One another thing that hasn't been done is half-Borg, half-Android hybrid, as androids have no human parts to assimilate... Basically Borgs would discover how to make android drones instead of assimilating for new knowledge. Then the android drones could evolve like AI. We already did see the old Borg Queen being basically just a head with artificial spine and torso.

[@James-rm7sr]

That is why Star Trek has so many avenues if writers would be open. They can make foes that are like bugs say Species 4972 I think their name is. Although, I personally hate bug species as I don't see how they legit would managed to make a spaceship and managed to achieve warp drive.

[@goransekulic3671]

She went insane ... yeah, like the entire season! I mean, what was that? (S2) :D Imo, Starfleet needs some malevolent entity to challenge it. And, most importantly, its ideals. Kinda like Tau in 40k.

[@housecoatgaming]

The events of The Last Generation are only the end of a cycle of death and rebirth. The Borg are still out there. There are cubes waiting, waiting for someone to poke that which they shouldn't. And when the poke happens...the Borg will return. The Collective is inevitable. And resistance? It is _always_ futile.

[@kevreid82]

I like that the borg became easier to deal with. It is realistic that starfleet developed new weapons and tactics to deal with the borg

[@Hagunemnon]

The light shines brighter the darker the shadows around it become. The Borg, as a collective, were effectively the Federation's shadow, both in a literary and Jungian sense of the term. Where the Borg integrate other species, their ideas, and their technology by force, the Federation does so more through diplomacy and negotiation. Trek needs a villain like the Borg, even if it isn't explicitly the Borg, to contrast against and show exactly WHY, even when diplomacy can be the more difficult, time-consuming path, it ultimately leads to the more desirable long-term result. Its the opposite side of the coin occupied by the various nefarious, scummy parts of the Starfleet admiralty and society in general. Somethin' has to fill that niche, and I hope they end up fillin' it with something interesting. Though, admittedly, I'll always have a soft spot for the Borg and their monolithic mentality of power thru absorption and conquest.

[@GundplaHobby]

I can wait for a 3 Borg fight with the original collective trying not to be erased

[@TheJaniebear]

I think that Star Trek would benefit by exploring some of the content of STO, like the Devonians more or the Time Wars that was briefly shown in ST:E.

[@mrbuck5059]

Iconian War should be next. That or a Orville crossover. Dimensions.

[@colresswesker8912]

I think it's a strange statement to say that the Borg have been overused lately when the majority of Star Trek media that did use them is well over 20 years old now. Picard is only big example of a recent show that has used them extensively, which while I didn't care for a lot of it leading up to Season 3, their existence in Seasons 1 and 2 suffered due to the narrative and writing. From my understanding, Prodigy has done one Borg episode, which is fine for their subject matter, and Lower Decks has poked fun at the Borg a lot in passing. Nothing wrong with either of those. Plus they were no shows in Disco. Star Trek Online is the only other place where the Borg are being used prolifically right now, which well STO's space in canonicity is never concrete so that's okay. Personally, I think any current issues with the Borg have to do with writing quality of recent Star Trek series that would use them. It's very easy to do good Borg stories, we just need someone who has the writing ability and creativity to do them.

[@nonamegiven202]

yep, like i do love the Borg but they really need a rest for awhile, at least long enough to make a clean break form all their metaphors so we don't have the weird mess that was Picard S3. that said if we get a Legacy show, i NEED seven and borgrati to interact.

[@sh4d0wfl4re]

Voyager truly did the Borg justice, where TNG and it's movies dropped the ball: treating them as a distorted mirror of the ideals the Federation holds dear. Honestly, it wasn't the ages of isolation that warped the Borg Queens in Picard, it was their obsession with Locutus. The Delta Quadrant Queen was superior in her presentation, moral complexity and threat to what we got in TNG. Just watch the episodes like Unity, Dark Frontier and Unimatrix 0 to see how insidious a threat this Queen was