Chainfire! Is it dangerous?

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A chainfire is when multiple chambers of a percussion revolver fire simultaneously; this can be a dangerous event, but usually is not. Regardless, it is not desirable and the "common knowledge" is that the only way to prevent this is with a felt wad and/or grease covering the chamber mouths...historically, however, they didn't do that. So what's the deal?

[@purpleYamask]

The big worry with chainfire historically was the military attempting to adopt Revolver Rifles. Chainfires aren't great with a revolver but it's not going to blow your hand off like it will if your off hand is braced in front of it.

[@Joe-sc8fu]

I have an original colt revol e rifle. I can definitely see why that would be the case. Where you place your hands to fire the weapon, is directly in front of the cylinder. Your whole hand would probably get ripped off in one mishap.

[@purpleYamask]

@@Joe-sc8fu they had enough injuries to can the trials. I don't know exact number but "more than two is a pattern"

[@Joe-sc8fu]

@@calvingreene90 It was the only way to hold the weapon that was issued to them.

[@Joe-sc8fu]

@@calvingreene90 Alright, my bad dude.

[@Wayne72LEVRAI]

Even on a handgun this was dangerous at that time, because the steel wasn't strong as it is now. A chainfire of severals chambers still have a chance to make the cylinder explode on an original revolver.

[@legomastermaniac]

Chain fire is a feature

[@fire_tower]

Chain fire is what happens when you press the [Alt. Fire] button.

[@Swedishmafia101MemeCorporation]

"It just works." - Todd Howard, Bethesda Arms Corporation, 1862

[@FerdinandFake]

I doubt I'd be the first to drill into the cylinder in such a way that it always fires the top three chambers at once. Great stopping power at close range

[@FloorItDuh]

I have been assured by the devs they will patch this bug but they have said similar things about similar bugs in the past which also are still not fixed. I believe this bug will be left in the game permanently unfortunately for the end user.

[@vapormissile]

​@@FerdinandFakea controversial technique made famous by the well-known Old West gunslinger Ferdinand Fake, aka Chainfire Charlie aka The Claymore Kid.

[@andersolsson6709]

Nice to see someone adressing this correctly! To add to the problem, the chambers on original Colt percussion revolvers are not cylindrical, they are slightly conical, larger at the mouth than deeper down. With too small balls, they are more easibly able to ”roll forward” in the chamber under revolvers (since they were too small to befinner with). As they roll forward they are now even more undersized then when they were (loosely) seated further down in the chamber. Thus, there is nothing stopping the flame from igniting the gunpowder. Anders Olsson

[@dennysalisbury7471]

Full semi auto

[@andersolsson6709]

😂@@dennysalisbury7471 Though, on a seriositet note, I have experienced full auto on an original Colt m1851 Navy. Burnt out nipple vents (causing gasses rushing backwards to raise the hammer) and a very weak mainspring (probable culprit: some fastdraw wannabe in the chain of possession before me) was the reason for this very interesting but somewhat discomforting phenomena. Fired three rounds in half a second or so before the hammer came to rest between two nipples! 🫣

[@iskandartaib]

I'll bet the conical cylinder bore was designed to address the chainfire problem by squeezing down the ball as it was being seated, and jamming it in place. Still won't work if the ball's undersized, of course...

[@edgeofthought]

@@iskandartaibhaving a conical chamber also means the conical bullet, rather than a ball, will have increased tightness, spread across more surface area. So the conical bullet might compound the protection against chain fires

[@bearddevil]

I was always taught that if you weren't shaving a ring of lead off of your ball when you rammed it home, you weren't getting a proper seal and you needed to use a bigger projectile. Glad to know I haven't been doing it wrong all these years. I have balls sized to each of my revolvers, and all of my nominally .44 revolvers take a slightly differently sized projectile.

[@maddhatter3564]

Thats how i do it as well and haven't had a chain fire since starting in 2010. Logic says if the ball is cut ALL way around , its a tight seal

[@whatsmolly5741]

The lube should prevent that anyway. From the few first hand stories iv heard of chainfires the problem is on the other side of the cylinder, as in improper sized caps being too loose on the nipple amd setting off other caps.

[@maddhatter3564]

@@whatsmolly5741 In my 15 years of Black powder ive never had a cap come off like that. When i get a loose cap i use another, or change the nipple if its a consistent issue. BTW grease in the chamber just melts in most areas with Temps over 80F

[@whatsmolly5741]

@@maddhatter3564 I haven't had any issues either but if one was to use say size 11 instead of size 10 I can definitely see it happening because you have to pinch the 11s just to get them to stay on. The lube can be a bit annoying but if you make your own that gives you the ability to match the consistency to your areas temperature. I use bees wax and olive oil/lamb tallow/paraffin and mix different batches with varying consistency so I have something for most occasions.

[@maddhatter3564]

@@whatsmolly5741 Yes, always use the right cap, of course

[@awells444]

I now want Slow Mo Guys to film a chain fire.

[@PJ-he5zk]

YES!

[@JamesThomas-gg6il]

Definitely need to get them in touch with Carl.

[@Seelenschmiede]

That would be so ultra dope! Or Ballistic Highspeed

[@453421abcdefg12345]

There are slow motion videos posted on youtube showing a Colt 1860 .

[@RonOhio]

Blame the 1950's when everyone bought a kepi, rifled musket and cap and ball revolver and took them to the range in huge numbers. I suspect that there was a print campaign to promote safer loading practices that would accommodate every level of knowledge from "dedicated historical researcher" to "bought my kit at Kmart Saturday, does the ball or the powder go on top again?".

[@Ghatbkk]

I expect you are correct. I started firing cap & ball revolvers (reproduction Dragoons, 1851 and 1860s) in the 1960s, and I remember being constantly told to cover each chamber mouth with grease (kind of like Crisco) to prevent chainfires - but it was obvious that could not have been how the weapons had been historically loaded (as Karl notes, the grease doesn't stay put, it melts and runs everywhere). I find Karl's commentary about bullet size to make perfect sense and certainly to fit the ideas of the 18th and 19th centuries of how to get bullets to get some bite in the rifling.

[@beargillium2369]

First you drop the cap down in the chamber 😂

[@jontee3437]

@@beargillium2369 thats right. Then load the solid copper 45 acp bullets, then pour the powder on top. Powder on top ignites after the projectile leaves the chamber, giving it that extra boost in performance.

[@KR-hg8be]

​ @jontee3437 the hollow point acts as a rocket nozzle if loaded backwards. It's like a gyrojet, the most effective weapon known to man. This is a joke. Do not do this.

[@KR-hg8be]

@gfin4576 I'm assuming the sarcasm comes through but don't do it.

[@alanhope1190]

Once again thank you for a very clear, well articulated presentation.

[@InrangeTv]

Glad it was helpful!

[@tempestbloke]

@Inrange - Thanks Karl. It's been you and duelist1954 that got me into black powder shooting, and this is one wives tale that will never die. The video was great, informative, to the point, and showed the problem and explanation, perfect as far as I'm concerned.

[@InrangeTv]

Wow, thanks!

[@heavilyarmedhippie75]

​@@InrangeTvdear Karl. Do you know if regular FMJ 45 auto projectiles are safe to shoot in an army pattern revolver, and specifically my 1858 Remington

[@AviationJeremy]

I have Colt Dragoon reproduction that I’ve been meaning to get out to the range. The instructions specifically state to use .457 or .458, and this reinforces the reason why. Thank you for the information!

[@ElChris816]

I always enjoy your historical videos Carl. You have a way of explaining the information that is easily digested by the layman.

[@InrangeTv]

Many thanks!

[@suparosc02]

@@InrangeTv just remember that even if you do explain things in an "idiot proof" way they keep making better idiots. Good work nontheless.

[@anangryranger]

I've been shooting C&B revolvers for over 60 years. In that time, I've had only one multiple discharge, on a 1969 mfg. AMS 2nd Mod. Dragoon. The cause was in the ball size. Normally, .454" balls were loaded in the traditional manner, with no ill effects. However, I was given a mould by a friend, being a conical bullet. The mould was marked as .452" diameter. And yes, one chamber was compromised by flame going past a seated conical bullet. After the incident, the remaining cast bullets were measured at .450". The chamber that this particular event occurred, measured .452". Very obvious that this allowed the incident. The mould that was at fault, was an early Lee single cavity mould. I have been casting and loading my own since a boy in the late 50's. All my moulds are Ideal or Lyman made. To this day, I'm not using Lee moulds, though I've tried a couple of the newer ones. They are not satisfactory, and have been discarded. Ideal, Lyman, and RCBS moulds are the only ones I use. I've accumulated close to 75 iron moulds, and they are without any faults. In closing, in C&B weapons, I always cast bullets to .002" to .004" larger than the largest measured chamber in the weapon's cylinder. No grease, wads, or other substances are used. Simply a properly fitted ball, and powder. And zero issues with multiple discharge in any...

[@Ostenjager]

I have personally experienced a chain fire. It was *NOT* caused by not having grease over the chamber mouths. It happened because a couple caps fell away from the cones on some unfired chambers on a Pietta Navy LeMat reproduction. It tore off the loading lever and sent it downrange. It was one of the scariest range mishaps I have directly experienced, and ended my day of shooting, though with no injuries. I had fired the center grapeshot bore first before I fired the regular charges, and I think this contributed to the accident. Pietta LeMats have a known issue where no. 11 size caps fit rather loose on the cones.

[@Chris_the_Dingo]

The first black powder gun I had, years ago, was a 1851 Colt .36 repro. For some reason #11 caps were too loose. I had to use #10 caps, which were a bitch to find.

[@Ostenjager]

@@grizzlyblackpowder1960 Bold of you to assume I didn't read it. It said no. 11 caps. Incidentally, all of my other repro black powder revolvers also take no. 11 caps too, as per *their* owners manuals.

[@lornemarr]

I bought my Ruger Old Army in 1975. I have fired thousands of pure lead 458dia, 225gr. conicals and hundreds of 457 cast round balls out of it. Never had a chain fire. Now I know why. Thank you.

[@Einwetok]

That's a shame, Lemat's are gorgeous.

[@WhiteSandsMbuna]

Buy track of the wolf stainless nipples

[@Hosenfuhrer]

2:21 Some certain tall tankman may coin the phrase "a significant emotional event"

[@Hosenfuhrer]

@@Ancient_Yuletide_Carol Well that's where I heard it first, and I dare say most of InRangeTV viewers know him too.

[@aussiebloke609]

​@@Ancient_Yuletide_Carol That tankman has brought that phrase more into the general public eye, so he's going to be associated with it these days.

[@Rusty_Spiggle-Smith]

I’ve probably fired a cap n ball revolver around 500-1000 times in my life so far and that probably puts me in the top 1 percent of people who have actually shot these guns in the modern era. I’ve never had a chain fire using .454 round balls and Remington caps. I also have a Kerr bullet mold and never had issues with those projectiles

[@knunyabeasewhacks8744]

When I first bought my 1858 colt .44, I bought .44 round ball. Got to the range, loaded it up, put it in my holster. All the balls and the powder rolled right out! Lol! .454 was the way to go!

[@ST-zm3lm]

One of my grandpa’s neighbors lost most of his fingers to a BP revolver blowing up. That was, however, because he’d loaded smokeless powder. He didn’t really know anything about guns and this was in the mid 60’s

[@InrangeTv]

Yeah that's a bad idea.

[@ST-zm3lm]

@@InrangeTv Understatement of the century. Didn’t stop him from beating the shit out of some dude with his nub for breaking into his truck a decade or so later. I grew up in a fairly interesting neck of the woods.

[@theMemeProduction]

isn't bp and smokeless powder the same? how do i not do this mistake (new to guns)?

[@agentmasterflex5545]

@@theMemeProductionblack powder and smokeless powder are not the same thing, smokeless powder has more power in it, on top of well., not creating a smoke cloud like muskets and weapons like this did If you want I can bring more info.. but to answer.. no. They aren’t the same

[@theMemeProduction]

@@agentmasterflex5545 okay, thank you very much. Google doesn't seem to provide any useful information.

[@toweringhorse2054]

Great video removed a lot of the anxiety I had about black powder pistols

[@9mmARman]

I was introducing a friend to cap and ball revolver shooting after he bought a Pietta . 44 1858 Remington. He had read online about chain fires and was ready to fill the chamber mouths with lube. I began shooting C&B revolvers when I was 15 and was in my mid 40's at the time. I had shot so much that I completely shot loose several repro revolvers. At the time I had a few 1858's, 1860 Army, EMF Texas Dragoon, and a few Pietta 1851 .44's (I know, not historically correct). I had fired C&B revolvers thousands of times and, like you, had never experienced a chain fire. I expressed this to him and he proceeded to load like I did with no grease. I cast my own balls in a .457 mould and he was using swaged .454 balls. To my absolute amazement, the very first time he pulls the trigger on his C&B wheelguns, he has a chain fire. Lighting off the top 3 chambers! I'm not going to say it changed my way of loading at all, but I found it funny! He didn't, but I did!

[@actionjksn]

Did he keep shooting C&B revolvers after that? Did you explain why it happened, or did you know?

[@cwez11]

When I was a kid, I came by a replica Remington San Marco Army special. I asked my neighbor, an avid muzzle-loader, to help me load it up and shoot it, and he cautioned me about the dreaded chainfire. I asked what I should do, and he said, "Well, you can stand behind a tree, and wrap your arms around, and fire the gun on the other side, and if you have a chainfire, it will only blow your fingers off, but you will live. Long story short, I did it, and he laughed his behind off as I tried it. Thank goodness there are no photographs. My most embarrassing gun moment.

[@krisswegemer1163]

Great video. Logical conclusion. All I've ever used is grease over the ball. Its a lot cooler where I live. But, the point about ball diameter makes perfect sense.

[@ge0arc244]

Excellent information and a Great Video! As an owner and shooter of black powdered handguns for a long time I must say I have learned something new to me. Never had a chain fire but worried about it, this clears up a few misconceptions and hearsay.

[@InrangeTv]

There’s a lot of pearl clutching and lore on this topic.

[@MauldtheMan]

Extremely informative and factual and presented with repeatable evidence, thanks, Karl. I was not expecting a purposefully induced chain fire but that's exactly what this type of video and discussion needed. I'll know what's best to do when I get my own 1860 or Starr one of these days now.

[@NoosaHeads]

I have a Colt Walker. I wouldn't want to use 60 grains of powder, so I use 30 grains but there would be an air space between the powder and a fully seated ball. In this case, a wad or ground wheat powder over the gunpowder is a must. An air space will cause the cylinder to blow up, possibly even with a small amount of powder.

[@JamesThomas-gg6il]

Ive only dabbled a little bit in black powder, but I jave always assumed that a .45 ball was actually like 5 thousandths or so over, just so it would scrape off any excess diameter of lead, and thus sealing the chamber. Now my dabbling in black powder i blame specifically on Carl for showing that blunderbuss and when I stumbled on one (seems to be french 1922? Entienne) i had to get it and been cleaning her and fixing her and reading about her. Cant wait to see if she works.

[@Sableagle]

What if you sealed the bullets into their chambers by dripping melted wax crayons into them, and applied a little around each cap? Could that prevent chain fire even in the heat, make the gun a lot more water-resistant _and_ finally explain why Marines like having crayons around?

[@mathewritchie]

Isn`t that for snacks?

[@actionjksn]

It would probably help but it sounds like a big hassle.

[@soylentgreen7074]

Waste of time. A tight enough sealed ball is water proof, and a small bit of wax around the nipple with a cap pushed over is waterproof also. There’s videos on this. Only a small amount needed. No melting anything necessary.

[@DAKOTA56777]

As he points out, a properly fitting projectile is all you need. Chain fires are only an issue if you use undersized ammo. In his rain test video he found that the primer was the point of failure not the cylinder front, as again, a properly fitting round makes a full seal.

[@chrism4008]

Wax melts in heat, especially when the gun gets hot. So does bore butter. It's a pain and messy

[@seanfoltz7645]

I've got the 1852 Navy and use balls due to making paper cartridges and dip them in a mix of bees wax and tallow - have yet to have a chainfire with that SOP. Before I found out about that method, I had always smeared bore butter across the tops of the chambers - never had a chainfire, but that was a mess and a half, especially during summer. The wax/tallow mixture doesn't melt and isn't bothered by the heat and humidity in Florida - even firing during days with a 110+ heat index - and while it doesn't do anything for the cylinder, forcing me to give it a brushing every few loads to clean it out, it does wonders for the barrel. If you don't use paper cartridges, you can still roll out pea sized balls of the wax/tallow mix and the smush them into the cylinder after every chamber is loaded to protect against chainfires and keep the barrel clean.

[@icy3-1]

As per the words of the late R. Lee Ermey regarding a chain fire: *No more left hand. This is my hand; there are many like it but this one is mine.*

[@MadMomma-kj9ks]

Back in 1961 my friend and were shooting his model 1860 Army 4 screw fluted cylinder revolver and it chain fired. Scared us, but only damage was one chamber broke the loading lever screw, and bullet mushroomed into the plunger. He got another original screw, put it in, and gun was good to go.

[@nottherealpaulsmith]

i always heard about chainfires being a problem with revolver RIFLES, mainly because in order to hold one you had to put your off hand in front of the cylinder in the words of one smart gunnery sergeant, “That’s right, no more left hand.”

[@davidfist7801]

I haven't shot black powder revolvers extensively, but I've done it enough to know that you're right about the grease. Even when it's cooler, the heat in the cylinder after firing off a dozen rounds or so is enough to melt the grease and have it dripping everywhere.

[@billybauer3672]

I really enjoy your historical episodes... One thing I noticed you say is the your pistol was made and sold in 1871... Most don't know how long cap and ball was still carried and if you could transport back to the 1870s or even early 1880s it would not be odd to see an unconverted 1860 colt on someone's belt... In addition to colt still selling them till the early 1870s I can imagine huge numbers were surplused out by the army and snatched up cheap by civilians heading west.

[@glennrishton5679]

If you ever run across a reproduction copy of the old Bannermans catalog from the early 1900s you'll see 1851s and 1860s selling for a couple of bucks. military surplus. Bannermans was a big arms dealer of that era selling to individuals and foreign countries.

[@maddhatter3564]

The idea was 'why spend extra money on the new revolvers, wait till this one wears out"

[@jfruser]

Thta was quite educational _and_ concise. Thank you.

[@InrangeTv]

Glad it was helpful!

[@PianoMan347]

I mean that makes sense; what else prevents it from happening in modern revolvers? Propellant is sealed off by the brass case and a properly sized projectile

[@whytebearconcepts]

I used to do reenacting and while I was in Artillery the pre-show orientation stated those with pistols keep one chamber empty as a 'safety'. I am considering purchasing a couple of Traditions revolvers, for collectors purposes but like anything else they will probably be fired at least once. Your videos are extremely informative, I'm delaying my purchase a couple of months now to go through your library and research everything I can. Thanks.

[@IHWKR]

I subscribed to the channel just because of your stand against corporate monetization. Thank you.

[@mr_ThreeEight_1776]

"I can't afford a shotgun" Colt: i got you bro!

[@williamoldaker5348]

You're not just an ally, you're a teacher. Thank you Karl. I need to watch more, learn more.

[@ThomasJames69420]

Glad you covered fouling as a reason for using wads or grease. Grease is nice for winter and some brands even have a mint smell.

[@glennrishton5679]

When I started shooting in the late 1960s we used Crisco both to lessen the chance of a chain fire but also the grease to some degree migrates on firing to the cylinder pin.

[@molochi]

An undersized ball could also leave powder in front of the rammed ball. I've never experienced a chain fire, but always just assumed that the were caused by the flash at the gap between the cylinder and barrel and a sloppy loading that left a fuse, so to speak, in the chamber and around the bullet for the other loads to misfire from. Using an undersized ball without a patch would be a good way to see this happen, imo.

[@k31owner46]

We’ve always used crisco (butter flavoured) to coat the end of the chambers. Somewhat as a gas seal, somewhat as a lubricant, always because buttered black powder smells good.

[@donnyarmstrong9559]

Ruger Old Army ('84 vintage), .457 Hornady round balls & 30 grains of 3F (when you can find it!)... works every time!

[@jeffpv7468]

From my understanding, undersized projectiles are the main cause of chain fires; wax wads and "Bore Butter" perfectly seal the cylinder with a material that is able to prevent any ignition sources from getting into the other cylinders by "catching" and extinguishing any flame so it's nearly foolproof. You're correct in saying that using the correct size projectiles will also seal the chamber, but why people are still hesitant about that is because imperfections in the ball casting may leave sprews or uneven spots on the ball that will compromise that seal and could let in an ignition source. With modern casting and rolling methods, however, this is extremely unlikely. You can verify that the cylinder is sealed by looking at the ring of lead that is cut off of the ball when squeezing it into the cylinder; if there's a section of the ring missing, then you know there's a gap in the seal. That said, Wax or lube, in addition to wads, still have viable use cases in black powder firearms. They keep them clean and contain residue within a waxy or oily film that can be easily cleaned and wiped away, as well as providing lubrication and preventing fouling; which is why I still use them.

[@JRS2791]

Slight oversized round balls when seated into the chamber shave a tiny ring off. That means there is a tight fit between ball and chamber. I use cornmeal as a filler because its cheap and because I generally load 25 gr of 3F powder, so there WOULD be a loose gap between powder and ball otherwise. Cornmeal filler is also a spark barrier. Using cornmeal filler you can also ensure a tight compacted load. A compact load is good to ensure that chambers don't get rocked loose and mess with burn consistency. Its also proponent for accuracy with every chamber ball seated at the same depth, which also means the ball engages grooves at same distance, etc. Anyway, I never had a chain fire.

[@alexhatfield2987]

Really well analysed and articulated. You put forward a very strong argument for the cause of chain fire in an historical and modern context.

[@Masterhitman935]

I learn something new today, I didn’t realize chainfire was a thing nor black powder revolver.

[@Tera_Hai]

Saw one when I was in aig class years ago. We were out at the teachers farm as part of the FFA. The instructor's brother was shooting a reproduction kit he had just built. Went off, huge cloud of smoke and the cylinder and pistol grip were there but barrel was gone. We ran over to check on him. He was shaken up but a side from his pride he was ok.

[@jangchief]

I would imagine that, historically when cowboys casted their own lead and what-not, That the tolerances and safety precautions were not as precise as modern times. And they conceivably used a wide range of projectiles of any size that would work at all. Probably, also, there were not as many liability lawsuits over products and instructions being dangerous to the consumer. Like that movie A Million Ways to Die in the West. It was a dangerous time in history. So maybe old traditional products and instructions are outdated and less effective/efficient then modern technology/techniques. ...Maybe

[@pauldogon2578]

Use an oversize ball, I used .457" balls in my Uberti Remington 1858. Never had one chain fire in I don't know how many rounds

[@actionjksn]

That's what the video says.

[@jochenreichl796]

Great to see someone talking about this topic without beeing dogmatic or getting personal. I experienced about the same. When I got my first percussion revolver, I went to the range, and with the second shot I had a chain fire. Why? I was using the balls I had. From rifle shooting, where you use a patch. So the balls are smaller. They were .445, so WAY undersized. But since the cap was still seated and not went off, it was immediately clear the powder was ignited from the front. Today I use .454 round ball, because these are readily available everywhere and not too expensive. I put grease in front, but not because of chain fire. I never had one with .454 balls. But because when I shoot these guns, I shoot quite a bit, and the grease helps with the fouling. In the old days, grease was not used for one more reason: The guns stayed loaded for quite some time. The grease would accumulate the ever present sand and mineral dust in the desert and would turn into a grinding paste. You don't want that in your barrel.

[@V3RTIGO222]

From what I understand, an absolutely catastrophic chainfire is only possible because of improper powder loads and/or an improperly manufactured cylinder... at that point, its not exactly a chainfire. don't use smokeless powder, keep your fingers, don't have anything you don't want hit in front of the cylinder

[@howardmaryon]

Excellent instructions! Thank you. I have always thought revolving rifles were a bad idea, but back in the day, I expect chainfires were much less common.

[@InrangeTv]

Revolving rifles are a bad idea, chain fires or not 🤣

[@jchan5000]

very interesting, great presentation

[@davidrosenlund7533]

I've heard both camps. Use grease and no grease. The negative camps explanation is that with proper size projectiles, you'll see a shaving of lead. Proving there's a good seal and eliminating the risk of a chain fire. In my limited experience with C&B revolvers, I usually put a smear of crisco sealing the end of each cylinder chamber. I've never used a patch or felt wad. But living in Vermont, I don't have the problem of melting grease like he has in Arizona.

[@jasonwooden]

Thanks for the info! I had a chain fire with a reproduction Colt .44 that I traded for second-hand. Someone had replaced some of the nipples with #10, while others were for #11. Not knowing any better, I pinched the #11s down so they'd fit the #10 nipples. Shot it that way off and on for years, then one day BOOM! Two cylinders fired. No injuries to me or the pistol thank goodness.

[@tacfoley4443]

Great video, Sir. Very clearly explained, even for a tyro.

[@InrangeTv]

Thank you kindly!

[@Mibit911]

I make my own paper cartridges for my Walker and 1851. I use cigarette papers and a dowel tool for proper sizing to make and tube and then another small circle of paper to make the bottom of the envelope. When that's done I pour a powder charge In and then take a round ball usually 454 for the uberti Walker and I roll it on the top of a glue stick. Then I take the envelope and seat it in the top of the dowel tool and seat rhe ball on top and compress it down with the dowel so it's nice and tight but not too tight and the ball is nice and attached. I can shoot these no problem but what I like to do after is take a tin can of lamb tallow I have and heat it up on the stove for a few minutes to liquefy it on a low heat. And I dip the exposed ball into the wax so that it goes just up to or barely up to the paper to coat the ball I'm a thin wax and I store the cartridges in a cartridge box I made for later. It can take quite awhile to get a good ammount saved up and its a process in itself but it makes range days alot quicker and more fun to shoot and if I run out I can just switch over to the flask and patch. Or if I want to do heavy loads in the Walker I can pour it out myself as the cartridges are pre measured.

[@DennisRatashak]

I've been shooting cap and ball revolvers for about 25 years, and I have put thousands of rounds down range with them. I have never had a chain fire, and living in the deserts of Central Oregon, any grease that was available would just melt out in the heat. I have always used .451 round balls until recently. Plus, I have never had a cap jam in my Colt model. I guess that I have just had a good run with my guns. Although I have had caps fall off. I have found that CCI #11 caps fit loose, but if you grind the end of the nipple to shorten then then the caps fit great.

[@guardsmanom134]

I load in the new-old version, aka "the Oregonian" or "the naval pattern ". Powder, followed by paper wad/paper cartridge body, followed by ball, followed by a hefty plug of homemade Bore Butter, which is paraffin mixed with Crisco and melted while blending. The Crisco falls away in hottest climates, but the wax will remain as a residue. Also, several points you made were incredibly inaccurate. Yes, Colt said that. No, it's not a 'new' method to use wax and wad and wax-cover your caps... that's actually the US NAVY Standard of Arms for the 1861 Colt Navy, which was developed for use on Ironclads and sailing ships with a higher likelihood of powder-fouling due to higher atmospheric moisture content due to the spray of the sea. (Ref. Naval Arms and Operations of the United States, 1800-1900) I carry my Josephine this exact way, and have yet to experience a chainfire (cross my fingers), as that's what DGW (the manufacturer and distributor) suggested in their Manual of Arms, or I'd be shooting smooth-wall hollopoints that I can source which are made from the same soft lead as the swaged round ball. I simply know about the Navy MoA, because I come from a traditional military family, and my Grandad and sister were both in the Navy. It's not a well known or oft repeated piece of historical knowledge. I can say that the first person to make the concept standard in the Navy for all cap-and-ball revolvers, was none other than LtCmdr. Johnston Morgan of the Monitor. Little piece of historical facts for you.

[@markfrench2980]

What is a smooth wall hollow point?

[@guardsmanom134]

@@markfrench2980 one without greasetrap grooves on the side of the projectile.

[@googleuser3760]

What an excellent video. 👍👍

[@rharthart9477]

You are correct: there are many reasons for chain-fires. Yes you need 'oversized' projectiles to seal off the chamber, but there's more - many modern replicas have small 'lips' (or burrs) around the mouths of at least some of the cylinders which shave off more on one side of the projectile than the other (making a gap on one side of the cylinder for sparks to enter - lead rings will be thicker on one side) - make a slight chamfer on the mouth of each cylinder to eliminate this issue, however now you may not experience a ring of lead as the ball is 'swaged' into the bore of the cylinder (similar to the original cylinders that had tapered cylinder bores). One also must be aware of where the 'sprue' on round balls is situated when seated as well as the condition of the sprue surface if it contacts the cylinder walls. I don't use wads or grease/wax for chain-fire prevention, just oversized projectiles and correct percussion caps...

[@EIBBOR2654]

The one thing I can attest to is that you will destroy a Brass frame revolver with a few chain fires. My first BP pistol was a Brass frame colt .44 copy and it was my first time shooting Black Powder. at that time not many were shooting BP guns in the 1970's. The only instruction I got was from the gun shop where I bought the gun and they were the ones to tell me to use a hard tallow or grease over the balls. I knew back in the day they shot canonical bullets and round balls but I could never find the canonical bullets. Later I bought an 1858 .44 Remington Brass Frame and I happen to spot a Black Powder Shooters Bible there with complete instructions for loading BP Revolvers. The proper size bullet was stressed in that article and they stated that when you rammed the ball into the chamber, the proper sized ball will leave a lead ring around the chamber and that would keep chain fires from happening. As I remember the information sheet that came with the gun said the proper size ball for that 1858 Remington was .458. I always used the .458 swaged balls in that revolver until I got a .458 canonical bullet mold. I switched from grease or tallow to bees wax for lube and still believing that was for safety. When I shot the Colt I found that after the first shot most of the tallow or grease was melted and it was all gone after the second shot. But the Bees Wax, even though it melted from the flame of the shot, a good portion remained. I shot that Remington for 30 years, thousands of rounds without a chain fire. But with the Brass Frames it comes a time when the barrel loosens up. I was able to fix th the loose barrel for a bit, but then the frame cracked in the thin area by the ramrod. Brass will only take so much hammering from firing, so now it is a wall hanger. But you are right as to the proper size bullets to prevent chain fires. One other thing I might mention. When I was stationed at Hickam AFB HI, I would shoot with the BP club out there. One guy had a reproduction of a Colt Walker that took 60 grains of BP. To cut back on the powder charge to 30 grains because Black Powder was hard to get in Hawaii, he would charge each chamber with 30 grains of BP and use another 30 grain volume of corn meal on top of the BP to fill the gap before ramming the the ball. That also worked to prevent chain fires and also added to the cleaning of the barrel every time he shot. He never had any problems shooting it that way the 3 years I shot with him. My 1858 only took like 27 grains of BP so I could never needed a filler on top of the BP. Later I knew another guy that did the same thing in a rifle. He also stated that it kept the bore cleaner. Have you ever heard anyone doing that? While I was stationed at Hickam AFB, I ordered my first BP Rifle a special order 1863 Shiloh Sharps that would take a 150 grain BP charge. I love that rifle and I have hit Ram targets at 1,000 yards when most other BP muzzle loaders can't.

[@cy5279]

I was at the range during the summer one year, and was using pure beeswax disks over the mouth of my revolvers chamber, and it was so hot, the beeswax was like putty

[@KathrynLiz1]

I have fired thousands of rounds in a percussion revolvers (Remington) with all six chambers loaded but only 5 capped (for CAS events), never a chainfire with loose powder and balls... I cast my own balls from pure lead at .457" which shaves off a ring of lead on loading, so the fit is perfect, as good or better than a metal cartridge. The .457 balls actually have about a 1/8" bearing area when so shaved. Chambers are slightly chamfered at the mouth and all reamed to be perfectly round and .001" over groove diameter which I measured at a consistent .451". I have never, ever, had a chainfire in over 30 years of shooting, even with uncapped nipples on loaded chambers.....I have never used grease in the chamber mouths, and I imagine that back in the day it would have been a terrible idea as during carriage all sorts of dust and grit would collect and do the bore no good at all. Latterly, I have used paper cartridges with conicals, bullets lubed as for metallic cartridges. The conical mould I have makes .451" bullets, which are a bit marginal, but in the paper cartridges and with the grooves filled with lube in a lube/sizer they work very well. Both balls and conicals are very accurate, with pretty consistent velocities. I have a feeling that some commerically made balls are a) not consistent in size and b) not made of really pure soft lead...

[@USSEnterpriseA1701]

I've heard of one other source of chain fires that is a possibility, but should be very rare. I have heard of cases of the cylinder walls developing a crack between two chambers and that leads to both chambers firing at the same time. To be honest, it sounds like the sort of problem that would primarily surface from not properly inspecting an original piece before attempting to shoot it. As for me, I only am able to deal with repros, but I do always give them a good look over before I take them to the range. I've recently switched from loose powder and ball to making my own (currently round ball) paper cartridges. I've always gone by the rule of thumb that a properly sized ball should shave a noticeable ring of lead when being rammed and that is what seals the chamber. I did use grease on the front of the chambers for a while when I was just starting out, but found it to be quite the mess and figured it was a bit redundant when the balls I was using shaved off that lead ring. I also sought out the wisdom of more experienced BP shooters, including many here on youtube, such as Duelist1954 and feel pretty confident in my choice. A bit of grease to deal with the fouling is fine, and I dip the front of the loaded cartridges in my current preferred lube after they are loaded and the glue has a chance to dry, but it's there pretty much only for the fouling. The process has certainly showed that my gluing technique sometimes isn't as good as it should be, but that's something that can be improved as I gain more experience.

[@lalli8152]

Those cactuses are so beautiful in your location. They look so massive as well

[@453421abcdefg12345]

Appling grease/lube to the chamber mouth will not prevent chain fire if the projectile is undersize, if you fire a fully loaded percussion revolver then look at the front of the cylinder you will see that there is no lube left, it has all been blown away by the first shot, but if a correct size projectile is loaded,( as you do), leaving a ring of lead, there is no chance of chain fire from the front, unless the chamber is in some way damaged leaving a flame path, the problem with a lot of todays shooters is that they have a very casual sloppy attitude when shooting C&B, so use oversize caps, or worst still squeeze them to stay on the nipple, and use bought in undersize projectiles, if you look at a slow motion video of a C&B being fired you will see the rear of the cylinder is engulfed with flame at chamber pressure, given a loose, or missing cap that is where chain fires occur, the problem is made worst by the mainspring being weak, allowing the hammer to blow back from the nipple, bang bang! This is an excellent video made by someone that knows the subject! Stay safe! Chris B.

[@healyburnham393]

I lo'aded Grandpa's 1860 Army with .440 size balls. It says right on the trigger guard "44." No damage to me or the gun, but it certainly was exciting!

[@magnusolsen691]

Now I'm curious about how squibs act with undersized bullets

[@berzerkinglemur6534]

[10:19] There is another alternative to wads, it is semolina. I'm not saying this is the best way to seal, but it's always worth a try.

[@missingthe80s58]

I have no evidence to substantiate my theory but I believe melting lube is why they stored ammo bullet down back in the day. You might lose the lube but you won't contaminate the charge.

[@bracoop2]

Thank goodness you explained this so we don’t have to see anymore dumb chain fire comments.

[@InrangeTv]

It won’t help lol

[@JerryEricsson]

Back when I was a soldier stationed down at Fort Bliss Texas with the 3rd Armored Cav, I had a buddy who believed that you were no allowed to own a cartridge revolver on base. This was ridiculous but that was what he thought. So he purchased a cap and ball revolver and kept it in his dresser drawer loaded and ready for the intruder he expected at any time. (He was from New York City!). One day we were over to his quarters on Bigs Army Air field and he showed me his pride and joy. It was my first time seeing such a revolver and I thought it looked cool but was ridiculous to depend on for self defense. We took it to the desert out on Fort Bliss and fired off a few cylinders, the ones he had loaded in the gun long before, that he depended on to repel intruders only fired twice, the rest failed to fire. He cleaned up his mess and reloaded, then the gun fired alright. It made me happy that the revolver I had in my night stand took the puny little .22 Long Rifle and that it fired every time I pulled the trigger. After our experiment, he went to a gun shop in El Paso and traded his revolver for a .22 as well.

[@42pyroboy]

Thank you for the info Carl

[@knunyabeasewhacks8744]

A properly loaded round ball will shave off a perfect "o" ring of lead when seating. Make sure you keep an eye on that when loading.

[@jwhowa0379]

catastrophic failure aside, can we all just appreciate how beautiful that firearm is?

[@improvisedsurvival5967]

They say chain fires happen from the cap end most of the time. Lubing is really just to make cleaning easier as residue still to the lube which is easily wiped away.

[@georgeearls3338]

My one and only chain fire was with a Uberti made .36. I used the recommended no. 11 cap, pinched. I had .375 round ball, almost perfect lead rings. This was the first and last time I used revolver wads, and a grease patch. Upon firing my first round, all six chain fired. I have not used a wad, or grease patch since. I think mine was caused by some how i messed up with the caps, I can't think of anything else. The only damage to the gun was a small spot of bluing missing from the cylinder pin, and i had a ball stuck under the loading lever, my only damage was solved by changing my drawers.

[@InrangeTv]

The wrong size caps are definitely a problem and pinching them is a hack that can result in a chainfire. I recommend slixshot replacement nipples with CCI#11 or, even better, Remington #10s.

[@hansjansen7047]

Interesting note; I have a flask that looks exactly like yours. I got mine from CVA in Saybrook CN by mail with my Kentucky style percussion rifle. I initially loaded my Ruger Old Army with the balls I got with that rifle but I had to patch them because they were too small. I latter bought a mold to cast my own conical bullets and even later one to cast the ball for the rifle. This was back in the '70's when you could ship stuff like that through the mail.

[@imbok]

You won't get a much better seal than a swaged plug of lead in a bored steel cylinder. Makes perfect sense.

[@antonioadinolfi4052]

Very interesting video, very practical. Thanks Karl.

[@flamarlamb]

Got my first black powder revolver in 1986, an Uberti 1861 Navy. I used the felt and grease for the first box or two of balls then I either talked to someone or read about the reason the recommended ball size was oversize and have been shooting sans grease or patches ever since. Never had a chain fire. I’ve had it do a semi-auto thing a couple of times when using non-serrated caps. I guess the blowback was enough to fully cock the hammer.

[@nathantrest2345]

So its user error. Never would've guessed that.

[@SwabJockeyJim]

With the stocked revolver, with a hand under the barrel, a chain fire is substantially more exciting!

[@gonzo_the_great1675]

I had one that 4 chambers went off. One up the barrel, two either side and cleared the frame. One went up the loading ram. Which I loaded back in. No obvious extra recoil, as the extra chambers had the balls pretty much level with the front of the cylinder. So barely and velocity was generated.

[@bgibson6082]

I have been on the wrong side of a chain fire. In front of the gun, not behind it. I carried a piece of a .44 cal round ball in my back for many years. I was 16 yrs old and stupid. (Don't judge). In later years, I became very involved with civil war reenacting. Rather than use wonder wads to prevent chain fires. I learned to use cornmeal. Very effective (at least for blanks) and historically accurate.

[@jimtalor9537]

Very informative

[@kainhall]

ive always been told that a proper ball will leave a "ring" of lead when pressed home...... thus GUARENTEEING that the chamber is sealed . we still put "bore butter" over the balls because this was "Lewis and Clark after school program" here in NE MT...... which was GREAT!!! got to shoot black powder, make water carrying gourds, make my own moccasins, and forge iron into all sorts of tools . it ran out of funding and was shut down before i graduated

[@Echowhiskeyone]

Any unintentional fire(chain fire included) is potentially dangerous. Usually not, but the possibility exists.

[@Ostenjager]

If you have something with an offset loading lever (such as a LeMat), those exposed bits can absolutely become shrapnel, and could redirect the bullets at an offset from the main direction of fire. Those additional projectiles and deflected bullets can make the experience that much more *exciting*, in the sardonic sense. 😐

[@Chris_the_Dingo]

I've seen it happen to guys a few times in CW reenacting, with just powder supposedly sealed with Crisco or whatever. I've never had it happen while live firing though. It's been a while, but I believe I used .376 balls (1851 model colt), which were more than large enough to seal the cylinders.

[@0529mpb]

It's all about using a ball that fits the chamber. You should shave a thin ring when you seat the ball. Conicals go in paper cartridges.

[@rollotomasislawyer3405]

I’ve shot cap and ball revolvers for decades and never had even two chambers discharge at the same time.

[@rollotomasislawyer3405]

Yeah if you use a .41 cal in a .44 cal. You could get a chain fire. If the ball is large enough to leave a little ring of lead when loaded, there can be no chain fires.

[@chincemagnet]

Intriguing, I’ve never fired anything like that, probably never will, but a good thing to know regardless

[@quasar8898]

During a few years of Civil War reenacting, I had a few chain fires happen.Of course I was using low powder charges and wadding only, no lead. I always lubed generously after the wadding and made sure my caps fit well- still got the occasional chain fire.

[@WardenWolf]

There is one more thing to consider: if a cylinder has been damaged in any way or is out-of-round, it is possible that a bullet that is swaged at the opening of the chamber may not fully seal. There are numerous ways to cause this, from overcharged loads that cause swelling to simple manufacturing errors. Chainfire is not a real issue with a properly sized projectile in a perfect chamber, but given the manufacturing tolerances of these old revolvers combined with user error that may have damaged them, it is still a real issue in historical pieces.

[@ThomasPihl]

Never had a chainfire. Correct size ball should leave a ring of lead that is shaved off the ball when seated. No lead ring/broken ring is a huge warning sign.

[@Wufnu]

I can hear the frothing of so many mouths right now, unfortunately. Great explanation.

[@InrangeTv]

Indeed! Lol!

[@ssjronin3972]

Wild, I owned one for under two years pietta and I had a chain fire one cylinder extra luckily.

[@slowhand1198]

Good info.

[@jasonz7788]

Awesome thank you sir

[@bobconnor1210]

Shooting C&B repros for forty years. Have always used .454” rb, tight caps and grease. Have never had a chain fire. The real danger is bystanders at any angle getting fragged.