The 2D Sonic Problem

[@chaomix]

Let me know if you've ever felt slightly cheated by the limited screenspace from a 2D Sonic game! If I had a nickel for every time I ran into an enemy hiding slightly off screen, I think I'd be rich. Also, huge thank you to Magic Spoon for making videos like this possible! Use my code CHAOMIX5 to get $5 off your delicious, healthy Magic Spoon cereal by clicking this link: magicspoon.thld.co/chaomix5_0722

[@Hank_A_S]

1 hour ago 💀💀💀💀💀

[@AlternativeShae]

nice

[@lssjgaming1599]

I definitely have been felt chested a little bit when I was a little kid playing on older systems but playing the wide-screen mobile ports for 1 2 and CD did help me a bit with the visibility. Nowadays I don't really have a problem with the cheap shots since I can anticipate them even in the original hardware that is until you play the game gear games. The screen really estate on those are so small and the levels aren't really built around the limited visibility of the system. Building the game around the resolution and aspsct ratio of the screen for the system is also a really important factor as if your level design is too large and expects you to anticipate too much on a small viewing resolution it causes massive problems. If we are using your idea of a more zoomed out camera I think that would also work well with maybe a hand drawn art style sonic game since then you'd also be able to appreciate more of the artwork

[@ashooaway]

Absolutely when I was younger specially Marble Zone with the green pillars

[@prestonanderson1719]

Yeah in Sonic Rush with some instant death crushing things. But not so much in Sonic Rush Adventure besides that one ice level with the snow bored. But in Sonic Colours DS not at all. I can't really remember any time the game threw a cheap enemy in my way.

[@RonnieRoberts_]

Sonic CD had its own solution to this. When you're at full speed, the camera would pull back from Sonic to give you more of the view ahead.

[@randocommando7945]

Advance 2 and 3 also did this. It’s also an option in Sonic 3 AIR. I'm surprised none of these examples were mentioned.

[@chaomix]

And stuff like that is SUPER SUPER helpful, should be a requirement for every game loool

[@MarkerMurker]

Sonic BTS and ATS did this too I think

[@Naito9874]

And also the rush trilogy iirc

[@hirotrum6810]

Only the original version of sonic cd sadly

[@Gigixndra]

“Blue rat go fast” Most inspirational quote ever.

[@SonicPowerofficialyt]

Yes blue rat

[@waddleplush]

Very cool

[@Dark_Mario_Bros.]

I'm not a rat, I'm a hedgehog. - Sonic

[@mypkamax]

「あおい　ねずみは　はやい」 ("Blue rodent is fast")

[@Mint_soda.]

Along with it being inspirational its also very cool

[@SilverSpireZ]

This is the exact reason why outside of 3K, Mania, and CD, I don’t go back to the 2D titles too often. Sonic 2, especially, is a major offender of this, Dimps games excluded. It’s part of why I’d love to see the Advance games get the widescreen treatment. I just don’t enjoy being forced to memorizing everything in a game in order to have a good time.

[@inendlesspain4724]

That is also why Sonic 2 is one of my least favorites in the classic saga; I can see why people love it so much (level design that's all about going ahead without many forced pace-breakers), but what I cannot see is the path ahead of me well enough while the level design encourages blasting through the levels. Ironically what I like the most about Sonic 3&K's level design is exactly what a lot of Sonic 2 fans seem to hate; by being deliberately "slower-paced" (maybe that's not the word I'm looking for here but oh well) it mitigates the issue quite a bit while not being as bad as in Sonic 1 with the forced pace-breakers. I think it's the best compromise they could've come up with under the technical limitations of the time (which we're still dealing with today anyway).

[@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778]

My thing is that the whole point of these games is replaying them until you memorize the levels and are skillful enough to replay them with speed. But sonic 2 relies way too much on level memorization, which is why I always go for super in my run so that the later levels can be done and over with quickly. (also sonic 2s soundtrack is not as epic as sonic 3's so the levels don't interest me as much)

[@promiseomiponle810]

Interesting….I thought memorization is part of the appeal of sonic games according to a large majority of this fanbase

[@guyonyoutube3850]

@@promiseomiponle810 the thing is, if i like the level, i'll want to replay it and get faster at it via memorization. what i don't want to do is memorize the entire layout of metropolis zone in order to beat the stage.

[@sonic5993]

@@guyonyoutube3850 metropolis is one shitty level of an entire game

[@AnonAmysShadowRose]

Remember the extended camera from the original Mega CD version of Sonic CD? Yeah, that immediately fixed the vast majority of the visibility problem. Why the Retro Engine doesn't have this unless you turn on the CD spindash is beyond me.

[@rynobehnke8289]

Properly because they through the Wide Screen would give enough view distance on its own.

[@hirotrum6810]

@@rynobehnke8289 but why not have BOTH?????

[@Starlight_Emerald]

Might be because the CD Spindash is tied to the Camera because they're reusing Code from The 2011 Port, so if you want it as an option you'd have to Mod it In. If I remember correctly, there's already a mod for this in Sonic 1, 2, and their Team Forever counterparts, so all it takes is for someone to port it to Sonic Origins and the problem would be fixed.

[@acmealec]

A possible solution is not having the screen centered on Sonic and instead have the screen shifted to the right so Sonic is always on the far left and when Sonic goes backwards then shift the screen so he is on the far right.

[@JuneCatcher]

Sonic CD does that a little funnily enough

[@ian09dbz]

sonic cd (mega cd og)

[@Ocarinist_Drew]

Was going to suggest this. It doesn't even have to be a super complex dynamic camera. 90% of the time you're trying to go right, so I never understood why they don't just put Sonic more to the left. And like you said, in the rare instances youre going left, the camera can just pan over so Sonic is on the right.

[@jomon324]

Sonic Pocket Adventure on Neo Geo Pocket Color does this to GREAT effect.

[@leonardocouto3109]

Sonic CD kinda did this, AIR certainly did this and THANK GOD they did

[@castform7]

Gonna be honest, at first I was like "this seems pretty small dude". But then I thought back to times a spring shot me backwards or I fell off the top path because I didn't make a split second decision or the countless time I got blindsided by an enemy. I don't think I have as big a problem with this personally but I'm all for improvent, no matter how small.

[@chaomix]

Right, and it really isn’t THAT much of an issue for me, I kind of was forced to overexplain the issue just to cover all my based which makes it seem way worse of a problem than it really is lol. Still something I take a bit of issue with that I wish would be improved!

[@FortuneKOF]

i agree with this so much. it's what made the advance series so much fun to me and i'm glad there are fans who feel the same.

[@FORSE5handlestuff]

I got hit with a spring and it push me into lava and I died cuz blue rat has no onion rings

[@Nic_2751]

We really need a new modern 2D title that takes advantage of Sonic’s new moves and really uses widescreen as an advantage because that extra second of timing makes a monumental difference at such blasting speeds

[@texrot9781]

Sadly we only got mania that is close to that

[@StaceyStAmant]

Sonic 4 is the closest to that, it has widescreen and it has Sonic’s new moves

[@HazeX2]

Sonic The Hedgehog 4 Episode 3 but it's actually an Advance game

[@Nic_2751]

@CupOfTea you’re (not) right!

[@Nic_2751]

@CupOfTea I’m saying I get the joke wink wink nudge nudge

[@S-RM11]

kinda surprised you didn’t bring up that in sonic CD the camera moves a bit to the right when you reach top speed, allowing you to have more time to react to obstacles

[@HelperUnknownGB]

Sonic Advance 2 & 3 did that as well.

[@toopienator]

Yeah but Advance 2 is ass anyway ​@@HelperUnknownGB Advance 3 is awesome tho it can have this win

[@jorenaldo]

That was always my main issue with the classics, and your solution is pretty good, however level design also plays a gigantic role, Mania divides platforming and speeding sections without throwing an insta kill or enemy at you, generally you enter a more enclosed area or some slope throws you upwards and stops your horizontal momentum. Also Mania is kind of responsible for me understanding and liking the 2D playstyle bc of this.

[@wideface344]

I think this is where the “sonic was ever good” argument has come from. Also this is why I think sonic freedom will be the most promising 2d sonic game ever. The amount of moves you can perform as well as the space you can see at least in the demo is amazing. I can not wait for the full release of that game

[@The_AuraMaster]

@CupOfTea I'm guessing a Fan Game.

[@frozenwaffles0114]

The fan game scene will make some good games, but CD, S3&K, and Mania, (as well as the Dimps games, those are great) are pretty undethroneable

[@playathesaints9599]

@@frozenwaffles0114 disagree on CD, the level design is atrocious imo

[@loweni7460]

Plays The Saints the level design of cd isn't bad I've had enough of seeing people hating on cd because of group think people who barely played past collision chaos and hated it because every level isn't speed focussed, cd's design philosophy is centred around exploration more than speed it forces you to think instead of just pressing right and going fast that's why playing it like a normal regular 2d sonic game always results in the bad ending the Devs wanted you to explore hence why the levels are less linear if you don't like the game don't play it but don't go around spreading nonsense about it because it isn't sonic 3

[@The_NJG]

At this point, I don't really feel that way, but that's because I've played these games over and over again. From the eyes of a newcomer, Sonic would seem a tad unfair.

[@chaomix]

Yeah exactly, I’m mostly talking through the lense of your average player.

[@Vantoxify]

there are cheap badnik placements in the 2d games but for me I just end up rolling after picking up major speed because it's the best option when going as fast as possible. When the stage slows you down by a block, I feel that's intentional because of an upcoming platforming section or a section with a ton of badniks.

[@jonathanflanagan1504]

Yeah slowing you down so you don't screw up a tighter platforming segment is good, but there are better ways to do it than with a harmless obstacle that stops you dead. One good way to do it that I remember from mostly Mania is by having a ramp shoot Sonic straight up with his own momentum, eventually coming to a stop in front of a platforming segment. It slows you down organically while delivering the satisfaction of having gone that high up BECAUSE you were moving so fast before, so it feels like a reward, rather than a pace-killer.

[@CLAYTERRACOTTA]

Honestly I'd probably handle this the same way Sonic CD did, just put Sonic to the left of the screen when he's running to the right, and vice versa. That way, you have the extra space when you need it most.

[@watersomic]

I was WAITING for someone to finally make a whole video about this topic! Always scratching my head at how rarely people talk about just zooming the camera out far enough to make reactions feasible.

[@ChaddyFantome]

Another issue with screen change us how it affects the perception of speed in the game. The more you zoom the screen out, the less fast Sonic feels and vice versa. Same with the screen panning backwards like in Sonic CD. Its a part if the equation i seldom see anyone mention.

[@chaomix]

That’s a very good point!

[@playathesaints9599]

I like to think of blurring the background and creating a mini after image effect as you are reaching top speed

[@MarkerMurker]

A recent fan game (Sonic and the Fallen Star) has largely fixed a lot of what you talked about here. Not by zooming out or anything, but by adjusting the level design so that speedy parts and platforming parts smoothly transition into one another. And almost no enemies that are just walking around in your path when you're supposed to be running

[@luckypaolastudio8476]

So that's what it is... I've been trying to figure out why I love playing 3D Sonic games more than 2D Sonic games, and it's because of the camera. I love being able to see what's ahead. I also think that's why I love when 2D Sonic games gets the wide screen support because then I had an easier time avoiding enemies, and I didn't realize just how much camera placement hugely influence the way I play the game. Even when I memorize the obstacles in 2D Sonic games, sometimes the enemies still jump scares me lol. Sonic Mania is my favorite recent 2D Sonic game not just because of 60FPS (smooth gameplay made it more easier to control IMO compared to older 2D Sonic games with choppy framerates), but also that I had an easier time avoiding enemies as well. It also made it my favorite Switch game.

[@silverush]

Another solution would be to, as you pick up speed, slowly move the camera forward relative to sonic (i.e. if you are running to the right, sonic would be on the far left side of the screen instead of the middle). This would make it so that you can still have the detail from having a zoomed in camera, while also giving extra time to see upcoming obstacles because your view is literally farther ahead than it would normally be. This is a technique used (albeit to less of an extreme) in super mario world and many other 2D platformers, and it frustrates and confuses me why sonic has rarely done this. The only times i think this method was used in sonic were in rush and rush adventure. Ideally, the best solution would be a mix of your dynamically zooming camera idea with a dynamically panning camera.

[@silverush]

In fact, the most frustrating thing about this is that in a lot of 2D sonic games, the camera actually moves bACKWARD relative to sonic, having him slightly farther to the right (if you're running to the right, that is) than center. This is the exact opposite of what should be done and makes the screen crunch problem significantly worse.

[@notunnamed2]

it was also done in the original Sonic CD. (1993/1995/GEMS)

[@silverush]

@@notunnamed2 I haven't played the original version of CD, but even then why is that the only classic game to have done that, seeing as that and sonic 1 are the two with the least emphasis on speed? It just baffles me why sonic team doesn't see other games doing this, some even sonic games made by other developers, and think that they should do it themselves.

[@playathesaints9599]

@@silverush Sonic CD has the least emphasis on speed? You must not remember the purpose of that game

[@YashaMikage]

The point where I asked "What am I doing with my life?" was Metropolis Zone in Sonic 2, honestly.

[@stardragon2776]

Same. I still have nightmares of those stupid starfish and mantis enemies that had me second guessing every step. Not to mention the spikes placed everywhere.

[@mushroomdude123]

Generations kind of dances around this issue by having the camera be way more dynamic and/or zoom out whenever a speed segment is approaching. It'll often be set to a 3/4 view of Sonic's back so you can get an idea of what's in front of you. Also Sonic 3 AIR has an option to automatically slide the camera so that Sonic is on the right side of the screen whenever you charge a spindash.

[@TheKabuto90]

The 2D portions of Generations are the closest I've ever gotten to actually finishing any of the classics so maybe they were onto something with that. I find the classics to be just... good games but impossible for someone like me who is just not very good at 2D platformers.

[@johnpett1955]

What made the 3d games like sonic adventure 2 fun was to keep getting better so you could get the best ranks but in the 2d games it feels like how you get better is with memorization and not so much with skill.

[@goldylover1000]

My big issue with classic sonic, in general is that sega does not want to give him any personality or a voice for that matter. I read the idw classic sonic stories, and I loved them and wish they would do that instead of making him silent. And the sad thing is this is coming from a guy who grew up watching aosth on vhs when i was little and KZbin later on in my life, With those old toon Disney rips. (I’m a 2000s kid I never experienced watching aosth on regular tv.) with classic sonic having a voice and personality.

[@sweetpataterz8738]

Exactly! The biggest thing is that Classic Sonic was never meant to be a silent character! The reason they probably couldn’t put voice lines in the games is because of Genesis hardware limitations. What did the Sega CD bring? More powerful hardware and more audio capabilities, which is why Sonic speaks in that game! But noooo, Sega had to remove the CD voice lines in Origins because god forbid Classic Sonic utters a single word, smh.

[@superhedgehog6447]

I really hate that since Generations, Sega has to make classic sonic mute. He isn't allowed to talk for some reason? Even though there were plenty of Sonic media during the 90s that had Sonic actually talking. The WORST ordeal of this however is Classic Sonic post 2011 has to be portrayed as cute. Classic sonic was never meant to be silent or cutesy. He had edge, attitude, and an ACTUAL personality. Seriously, even Sonic CD In Sonic Origins they removed the voice clips just so they can push this idea that the classic sonic series is silent and cutesy. I hate it, I hate that Sega nowadays has to portray classic sonic as this overly kiddie cutesy series with silent characters even though Classic sonic in the 90s was NOTHING like that at all. I'm really thinking it's just the result of Sega wanting Sonic to be overtly kid friendly in the 2010s and change Classic sonic into franchise for babies.

[@sweetpataterz8738]

@@superhedgehog6447 FINALLY THANK YOU THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY. Classic Sonic in Generations and onward isn’t Classic Sonic, it just feels like “cute little baby Sonic” and it’s really freaking annoying! Classic was never meant to be all cute and cuddly and adorable, yeah he’s cute but he’s also hella cool and that’s what makes him unique, that balance of him being cute but awesome. Just compare the cutscenes of Sonic CD to the ones in Sonic Origins. Sonic CD’s cutscenes are freaking incredible, it conveys Sonic’s speed better than anything I’ve ever seen. Then you look at the cutscenes in Origins. They’re cute, and that’s about all I can say for them because there’s really nothing else noteworthy about them.

[@specialbeamvegeta4059]

@@sweetpataterz8738 in all honesty the only mute character should be Metal Sonic, with the exception of him turning into the Neo form

[@sweetpataterz8738]

I agree, Metal is a lifeless machine so he doesn’t really need a voice

[@Mentleif]

This here is definitely part of why I generally prefer the 3D games and find them more replayable. I like seeing stuff ahead of me, don’t want to make a commitment to memorizing level layouts, and don’t have the best reaction time. I love this series, though, so I do hope it’s something fixed in future 2D titles

[@ryanwinter8813]

I can agree with a lot of this but I don't think it's quite as bad as this video makes it out to be, especially given that you left out the important 4th option: A.B.R., Always Be Rolling. If you're not rolling, you're gonna get hit by a lot of badniks. Also I feel like memorizing the level layouts is part of the appeal of these games, the speed is the reward for good performance, I'm not really a fan of when speed is just a given. That being said, I do think the dynamic camera zooming out and pulling ahead is a pretty elegant solution... but I also believe enemy placement should be taken into consideration. There are a few enemies in Sonic that are able to knock Sonic out of Ball mode that really should only appear in locations where Sonic must go slow... the entirety of the badniks in Metropolis Zone for instance, or those rotten bastards in the later levels of Sonic Advance that are only vulnerable for a brief few seconds. The Advance games in particular have very questionable enemy placement choices.

[@chaomix]

Definitely had to over explain the issue a bit to cover all my based which probably made it seem worse than it actually is LOL. Sorry.. but yeah, you’re definitely right.

[@redactedoktor]

_They see me rollin,_

[@mrtrollnator123]

​@@redactedoktorthey hatin

[@moderategamer3333]

I think that problem also explains why I tend to be better at the 3D Sonic games than 2D. Being able to see ahead is so vital for planning out a combination of inputs especially in the boost games. In the 2D games, I'm always hitting a backwards spring, flying into enemies, or getting crushed immediately. Hopefully, Sega and Sonic Team will implement a dynamic camera and more optimized screen real estate in future 2D Sonic games as suggested in the video.

[@gungeonrider1786]

Screen crunch has always been the biggest problem holding 2D sonic back. The changes you bring up would go a long way in alleviating this issue. The likes of Colors DS, Freedom Planet, and to a lesser extent Mania shows how effective this can be. Obviously you can't get rid of it in it's entirety without slowing things down, but a change like this would go a long way improving these games.

[@Asurilm]

My solution would be to move the camera forward when Sonic is gaining max speed. But not too much forward where you can't see Sonic, I'd say just forward enough where sonic is *almost* touching the left border of the screen.

[@playathesaints9599]

So like CD?

[@Asurilm]

@@playathesaints9599 A bit, but more polished.

[@lauson1ex]

Usually, in the og 2D Sonic games (1, 2, CD, 3 & Knuckles), obstacles are put before platforming sections INTENTIONALLY to STOP you from falling off to your death if you're going too fast, in the very sections you showed in the video. This is the same reason why, in traffic management, speed bumps or humps are put on roads to force you to slow down. On the other hand, enemies are put at the end of slopes on later levels because you're expected to have learned to roll on slopes by that point in the games - like how enemies are put on slopes in Mario games, in which you're expected to slide down - or, usually, they can also come as "invincibility sections": sections made intentionally to justify the invincibility power up hidden nearby, which enables you to speed through them recklessly. These are just common, run-of-the-mill game design techniques used to: protect you from yourself, skill-check and make you feel powerful, respectively. Also, enemies attacking you from off-screen only happens in the Retro Engine games (the worst offender being the S3K port in Origins), as these were made by (incorrect) observations alone, rather than porting their actual behaviors from the actual source disassemblies; in the original games, enemies are only activated when you're close to them: aka no projectiles from off-screen and no Mantis hitbox on its blades until it actually throws them.

[@AFriendRemembers]

Gotta go fast was never a phrase for the series until Sonic X.... which is... about 2005 ish... those original games were deginitely reaction tests more than driving simulators. And yes, wide-screen definitely helps

[@genesis-138]

Yeah. Before that it was “It’s juice time!”

[@kidwolf0015]

Erm... Sonic games were ALWAYS about speed, but the older games also expected you to get extremely good at dodging enemies, memorizing patterns, and solving puzzles at intense speeds at the same time. The classic games aren't meant to be particularly easy. They really were about building up your skills and impressing others with your experience.

[@fakebluedarknt2577]

@@kidwolf0015 like arcade based gameplay

[@AFriendRemembers]

@S292 Sonic is quicker than anything else around him. Yeah, thats exactly what that means, and the games do play quicker than most contemporary platformers for that reason. Just, the balance shifted somewhere around sonic heroes from Sonic being a platformer who can go incredibly fast to a speed demon who controls more like a racing car

[@playathesaints9599]

The specific phrase no but the message of gotta go fast was always marketed since it's conception

[@jonathon422]

I like the idea of the camera shifting depending on the direction Sonic is facing and the speed he's going. A lot of the reason that the 2D Sonic games have so little visibility is because Sonic is smack dab in the middle of the screen. If Sonic is offset, then you don't even have to zoom the camera too far out to increase the visibility and decrease the likelihood of unforeseen damage/death.

[@mindofelijah9208]

I think they should just have the screen move over to the right more when he is moving at a certain speed. So sonic is closer to the far left side of the screen letting you see things ahead of time.

[@ian09dbz]

sonic cd

[@SilverLining1]

You've missed one more solution, albeit a strange one: make the d*ck moves not feel like d*ck moves without changing the core level design. When you run into a d*ck move, it sucks because you lose rings, momentum, time getting back to where you were, your path in the level, or worst case scenario a life (furthermore the progress since the last checkpoint). I think the key is to pick and choose which of these apply. For example, when a surprise spring send you into spikes, you lose time, momentum, rings, and risk dying. Remove the spikes and you only lose time and momentum. This is still a punishment, and you'd try to avoid if everytime. Unless you'd die, it's barely any different, but it simply feels like less of a d*ck move. A secret strategy would be to move the same spikes somewhere that you'd likely hit from the loss of momentum, in which case the time separation and sheer chance that it still could have been avoided makes it feel less related to the spring and more like your fault. Imo, entire levels can be reworked around this philosophy to great effect when risking paths, but here I advocate for micro implementation at the bare minimum. The main goal should be to prevent the player from be overly cautious. The strange part of this solution is that there's even more subtle ways to minimize the frustration, such as leaving almost the entire game in tact and changing only the sound design. Change the harsh losing-rings sound to something less harsh, maybe make it a sound effect that fits in with the bgm. Get rid of the animation of rings flying everywhere and find more comforting ways to present ring loss and recollection. A very subtle gameplay change is to not take away control from the player when they take damage or to increase invincibility frames. The hardest changes would be those to the games' core mechanics, most obviously a change to the lives and rings system as a whole, or other things like maintaining momentum when running into enemies, new categories of taking damage, or inventing new moves with their own obstacle defying traits, such as how rolling does damage while maintaining speed. These are a lot harder to design and can normally only be done at the design stage of a game. I also think such large changes to a preexisting game should always be optional.

[@playathesaints9599]

You know on the actual mechanics, I was thinking how about we take the options, cautionary/agility, speed and boosting. The former allows you to do stuff like how Sonic is in the actual show with bounching around, keeping speed with making quick turns, moving about, switch from ball form to running, slight homing, wall bouncing/jumping etc while the latter allows you to reach high top speeds, a few frame evade mechanic that makes Sonic fade into the background/become transparent, wall up 90 degree walls, boosting and running button, jump farther/higher however you want, etc. This is tied into super peelout. And you can get either the super speed powerup for the latter or an agility powerup for the former to get upgraded versions. Super Sonic however will always have these things on. In terms of other mechanics, Sonic can have his health be 3 Sonic Head icons. If you lose all 3 then you die.

[@OliGaming-d1u]

I never understood why people prefer 2D Sonic. They're just as glitchy as the 3D games (Sonic 1 literrally has a glitch on it's title screen, what a good start for the series...). I have replayed the Genesis games recently and had little to no fun at all. People point out the weird physics and clipping through the ground in the 3D games but, that ALSO happens a LOT in the OG games. The difference in the 3D games, besides being infinitely more immersive and engaging, is that at least you can fricking see what's ahead of you! The Genesis games were marketed as super fast but really, you'll go at a snail pace most of the time because you cannot see what's coming and there are traps, holes and enemies EVERYWHERE. That's also not counting all the times you're underwater going even slower or even when you're just straight up standing still waiting for a platform to move or a bubble to appear. I'll never understand the appeal of 2D Sonic. People call it fast but you can go faster in any of the NES 2D Mario games. People will take for granted anything marketing will throw at them, I swear.

[@josh984gamer5]

Freedom planet 2 has a great solution to the camera by having it zoom far out when reaching fast speeds. I honestly hope 2D Sonic incorporates this as well

[@treythornton19]

2D Sonic games are so classic and they are fantastic to play when I was a kid! 💙✨

[@Poezick88]

The original Sonic games were meant to be replayed over and over. With the replays you get better. I see what you’re saying but I just can’t say that’s been a huge flaw for me. Gotta stay up on those top routes, chao. And some levels you just won’t be able to barrel through.

[@anchofucc7400]

He isn't saying it's a massive game breaking flaw, especially with the OGs that were made in an era with fewer releases overall in the game market (plus renting being a thing so they incentivized that too). But nowadays, there isn't much reason NOT to help alleviate this issue. While obviously you shouldn't be able to super easily clear a zone on the first go, in most of the classic games (1, 2 and CD especially), it felt like you could barely go fast at all for even more than 3 seconds on a first go, and you can't say that that's a good thing. There's a balance, and those were not hitting that balance well. Levels and mechanics should be ideally made to both allow for players to react to some obstacles, while still blind siding/requiring replays for others. The classics rarely did the former, mostly sticking to requiring a replay.

[@Poezick88]

@@anchofucc7400 I don’t follow. Sorry. I was born in a time where games had a higher difficulty. Sonic now is boost to win. Anyone can pick the game up and beat it in a matter of hours.

[@anchofucc7400]

@@Poezick88 How is that relevant to what I said? Also fyi so was I lmao Hell my favorite Sonic game is fuckin Rush

[@thefurry7165]

@@Poezick88 you say that like the classic games aren't hella easy lol, Sonic is easy even by today's standards "I was born in a time where games had a higher difficulty" yeah sure I'd love to see you beat Castlevania 2 without an online guide lmao, Mr. BackInMyDaysGamesWereHard, games back then weren't hard they were just bullshit

[@Poezick88]

@@thefurry7165 it’s funny you say that. I had castlevania 2 for nes growing up. That was a tough game. Lot of game overs.I felt accomplished when I beat it as a kid. Bloodlines was a little easier. I stand by my point. Games were harder “ back in my day.” Stay salty, my friend

[@sugarbooger4434]

I admit that "remember the level layout" is a poor argument people use when defending the level design in the classics. However, I would argue that the reason people keep running into enemies is not because of the camera or lack of memorization but because of failure to see patterns. All the levels in the classic games have recurring patterns in terms of enemy placement. How you get good and breeze through a level without having to replay the game for the upteenth time is to familiarize yourself with these patterns. Trust me, I know. This is coming from someone who's played these games his entire life and knows these games from the back of their minds. Though I personally disagree, this was an informative video and you layed your thoughts down in a well thought out and comprehensive matter. I just wanted to state to where even with the stuff you said in the video, the "zoomed in camera and bullshit enemy placement" in reviews is still more of something that comes from personal preference rather than be a fault of the game.

[@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778]

I feel like if we want to see more 2d games they should be like a recently released fan game, Sonic and the fallen star. It had cutscenes, New ability's and level design that made me want to go back and retry it as a different character to see what I missed. Anytime I died in that game it didn't feel like BS it felt like it was from my own doing. Also another issue is that SEGA needs to let headcanon or the sonic mania devs to do what they want. They seem like they really want to make an original classic sonic game but sega has only made them make re releases or just games with reused levels. SEGA needs to get teams other then sonic team to make side games and stuff. I mean classic games aren't really hard to make compared to 3d games as it would only take 1 to 2 years to make them. SEGA also has to stop putting these teams under strict limits that prevent them from creating good story's or games.

[@santiagoacosta3372]

As like everyone knows, sonic had a rough transition to 2D Sonic games were so much better when they were 1D man...

[@SonicTheCutehog]

The original release of Sonic CD fixed this issue by moving the screen ahead of you when running at full speed. Other Classic Sonic games just didn't do this and needed the widescreen remasters to fix the visibility.

[@Owlgineer]

I think the sonic games should take a page from games like Freedom Planet or Spark the Electric Jester. Both games features enemies that don't do contact damage but instead damage by attacking. And any offscreen dangers such as cannons or lasers feature a warning symbol if the danger isn't on your screen yet. Gives you a lot of time to react to something you can't even see yet.

[@brovideogaming9447]

I played all the genisis classics religiously for more than a decade, countless 100% playthroughs and knowledge of the stage ...And I still gets hit by offscreen stuff

[@chaomix]

It be like that

[@maoraharon21]

the speed is earned. if you get hit often maybe just slow down a little. I don't think it's a bad design at all. that's what separates sonic games from other platformers.

[@Leonard_Wolf_2056]

Average person likely does not want to try too hard to earn something that does not last for long.

[@wyzolol]

i agree partially bc that was sonic 1's design philosophy but the sonic SELLING POINT is speed

[@BareBandSubscription]

You know, I never played a Mario game where I had to earn jumping.

[@thebottomtext]

@@BareBandSubscription i never played a mega man game where i had to earn shooting either.

[@jideocolima9751]

I disagree with this video tbh. If it was for the original 4:3 games, then i'd agree, but with 16:9 games like Mania and the whole origins collection, screen space is now a moot point. Zooming it out even more means the game now becomes purely reaction-based, and memorization is no longer required. He doesn't mention this, but despite the fact that 3D games "fix these problems" they still make you have to memorize level layouts because things can be in front of other things, covering them up before you can see them (much like the 2D games). This is particularly notable in the boost games! Memorizing the level layout is part of the challenge of being able to complete these levels quickly and easily, so why should that challenge be removed to alleviate the first playthrough, which is always going to be your worst run anyway?

[@lpfan4491]

That the focus went back to memorization compared to Adventure and co is actually a big critisism against boost and the more liked games are the ones that need less to reasonably beat. Memorizing the level is just a way less satisfying "challenge" then actually gitting gud, not to mention that it falls apart completely if one is pretty forgetful to begin with or take decently long breaks between playthroughs(Which is something people can't do much against).

[@jideocolima9751]

​@@lpfan4491 Memorization is also a thing in the Adventure games, remembering the shortcuts to spindash jump in the first game, or the knuckles hunting stages in general. You literally cannot see the ramps on the truck section of City Escape coming! Memorization is a part of any game or activity that requires skill. Be it a platformer, a fighting game, or even a puzzle game, there will always be an optimal way to do things; and I don't necessarily believe that making that easier will make the game better, just more accessible but less replayable. If you do not dedicate the time to memorize the levels then you should not be able to get the best times, simple as.

[@lpfan4491]

@@jideocolima9751 The ramps in City escape are like 600 points with no speed gain.(And the Knux Stages don't exactly count for the sake of argument because it is a completely diffrent game mode bashed for again, the same overreliance on remembering 400 variables. This time worse because one can get stuck for upwards to 40 minutes.) Also, one will still not be able to get the best times without playing the levels multiple times. Some bits of memorization will always be there like you say, but it shouldn't dictate the game.

[@igirjei3717]

@@lpfan4491 ​ ​ Bring me 1 person that can hit record time in Mario 1 without having memorized it. Understanding the physics and mechanics is one thing, but not knowing where and when to apply things will jam your whole run, I feel like a lot of people need to understand, just because it's sonic, that doesn't mean you're going to instantly be granted crazy speed and flow state. And although memorizing the level may not be a satisfying challenge to a lot of people, I would argue that being able to not stop unnecessarily and constantly maintain flow state through an entire 2-4 minute level feels awesome, and *that* is a challenge

[@lpfan4491]

@@igirjei3717 Am I speaking Chinese? I literally said that yes, one still needs to memorize some things to get the best time and that is healthy for a game. But just having to memorize to beat the level in a smooth way at all is not and that factor is not mutually inclusive with replayability. Take Unwiished, you either need full mastery of the game's controls or the stage to get an S-rank and if you have both, you can get a really impressive time. But despite being a boost game, it is friendly enough to new players if one isn't dumb and constantly runs against a wall.

[@Nyaalexi]

To me, that's the thing about 2D Sonic. You have to try to be fast, while also trying to watch out for hazards. And replayability is the name of the game. Plus, it's really easy to obtain rings, and grab them when you lose them. Maybe that's just me, but man, I really like these games, and replaying is what they're known for.

[@FriedMetroid]

Press down. Seriously though, I learned to always be rolling while moving fast in these games and rarely ever have the issue of running into enemies

[@yona3271]

Fun fact sonic is about balancing your speed and your platform but not press right for 24 hours if you know you need to be always careful and in sonic 3 and knuckles the insta shield the best move

[@thejellyjar]

I disagree with you here. I feel it is part of intentional design. The point of the gameplay is to always pay attention, learn the stages, and react in a timely fashion.

[@valemontgomery9401]

Damn, I think you hit the nail on the head. While I like the 2D games, I prefer 3D a lot more, and now I think I know why

[@Cruise_ship122]

I agree with you its annoying to be so fast and run in to something like the controls don't do enough

[@im_just_l]

Honestly? I disagree. Sure, those surprising bits are annoying, but that’s all they really are. With the exception of the Advance games where there’s one every two seconds, they definitely aren’t 2D Sonic’s “biggest issue.” It, like most things in Sonic, is a balancing act. You want some to keep the players on their toes, but not so many that it becomes unplayable like in, say, Sonic Advance 3. And yes, I do think that Sonic CAN go slow in 2D sometimes. Something one of my friends once pointed out is that, in Sonic 3 and Knuckles, the stages actually separate speedy bits and platformy bits, often transitioning between them by way of a spring or a steep slope that sends you flying in the air. It avoids the Sonic Advance problem where speed and platforming are just meshed together for no reason and, as a result, Sonic 3 arguably has the least blindsides of any Sonic game. I dunno, I just feel like this is kinda making a mountain out of a molehill. There are bigger things to pick apart in these games besides the occasional spring trap or weird enemy placement.

[@lpfan4491]

Okay, but what is 2D Sonic's biggest issue then? If there is no issue bigger than it, then it is the biggest by default.

[@im_just_l]

@@lpfan4491 that's the dumbest shit i ever did hear lol there is no big overarching "issue" with the classic games because, while similar at first glace, they're all very unique in their design philosophies, aesthetics and more; and they all vary in quality and appeal because of that. i guess if I had to pick one, it'd be the fact that the special stages kinda make replays a drag on occasion but like the blindsides thing, that's more-so a minor inconvenience than a big overarching issue

[@notyours807]

One solution would be to make the camera focus slightly ahead of Sonic, so he's more on the left side than at the center. This would show more of the right sight of the screen. You really don't need half of the screen to show the left side, since you are actively moving away from there. This combines really well with the zoomed out camera. The camera can shift in moments where you climb up/down to the center, and on the right as sonic moves left.

[@suns3t_t0wn]

I present you... THE EXTENDED CAMERA In the fanmade remake of Sonic 3, Angel Island Revisited, you can toggle the Extended Camera, when Sonic goes fast, the camera will move to the Right, making it so you can see what's going on, combined with the Widescreen resolution, it's a pretty good solution to this problem.

[@chaomix]

BASED

[@suns3t_t0wn]

@@chaomix I always was.

[@baraksha1]

While the small screen space have always been a known issue in 2D Sonic I think its good to point out that the reason people dont always talk about it is because even with this flaw the game still manages to offer more on replays and manages to stay exciting whenever you play them. At least for me personaly. Like, I love 3D Sonic as much as everyone else and I did returned to them more then once but I personaly don't return to those games AS much ( with the exception of Adventure 1/2) because of their overall polish in terms of level design and game mechanics and the verity they bring the more you play the game. Interesting shit keeps happening to me on replays on these games for me to this day and I been playing them for probably like 2, decades now. Also while the reaction time they give is small and does make the player coward from going fast I dont think thats all entirely on the camera because I found that you can learn to react to these obstacles even without memorizing the levels if you can pay attention enough so when the player learns to feel more comfortable with Sonic's speed, jump and ESPECIALLY the roll the more the player learns how to keep the flow going regardless weather he sees it coming or not. The level design itself is sometimes built in a way to give the player reaction time. However it is mot always the rule and Im not gonna lie, there ARE certain level design moments in those games that are truly cheap and cross the line. like some of the ones pointed in your video which is why I was a bit surprised you rejected the idea of changing the level design so strongly. I think patching some of the issues with the level design to give the player more reaction time by maybe moving the obstacles around a bit can be a very nice and acceptable simple way to deal with it. Sonic 3 air does it a bit and I think it works nicely. Heck, when you think about it, it could be as if not more effective then just Zooming out the camera. Tho having a dynamic Zooming camera like you pointed out could be just as good of a solution. The reason im not TOO big on the idea of zooming the camera out is because like you pointed out it BARELY works. Trying to balance the camera in a way to accommodate to the upcoming obstacles without sacrificing the visible details on the environment is kind of hard, but imo more importantly then that is the fact that part of why the classic games FEEL fast is because Sonic's speed makes the screen scroll really fast and makes everything pass by in a second. When you Zoom out and keep Sonic's max speed the same (as you should) the scrolling speed naturally decreases which in turn results in a less thrilling sense of speed. Heck the spindash literally takes advantage of scrolling for a good effect by forcing the camera to stay for a few frames before following Sonic which does give a nice Blast Off kind of feeling. So yeah, I just personaly believe this whole problem opens up a big can of worms the more you think or temper with it and it goes a little deeper then just simply Zooming out for extra foresight. Anyways I rambled way to long on this one comment so thanks whoever is brave enough to read this through.

[@igirjei3717]

I didn't even think about the small camera space making the game seem faster, that's probably why they made 2d sonic faster than fuck in gens huh

[@playathesaints9599]

@@igirjei3717 2D Sonic's spindash was fast as hell lmao

[@playathesaints9599]

On the keeping Sonic speed, it'll be cool if there could be an after image effect and blurring the background

[@Kelis98]

I always loved to replay the 2D games (and still do), I don’t see running into things as an issue or flaw, I always had time to react (as I did see them) and even when I did run into something the ring system made this a non-issue, do it’s not a big deal and doesn’t ruin the enjoyment. Plus replaying the level, anything you might have run into you’re aware of now (however I don’t think that memorization is what the game is about or that it’s required). They are fair enough challenges. I get the point, but it’s not really a big issue (if it’s even an issue at all). It definitely doesn’t keep me from going fast and didn’t find it annoying. Also playing versions with 16:9 screen size helps, but isn’t required

[@jez_chill983]

The original Sonic CD did tried to do something that kinda helped to see infront of you: instead of zooming out the camera and losing detail, the camera pans forwards/backwards acording to Sonic's speed and direction he's going, that way you can see what is infront of the character while running

[@DeltaVideos]

Exactly, and that's what scares me about Sonic Superstars, they have THE CHANCE to fix that and make a "modern" 2D game that is Fanastic and compete 1 on 1 with mario games. In trailers i've seen some kind of dynamism in the camera, but in the 10m gameplay all i've seen is that old shitty fov.

[@ContextuallyDeContextualized]

I don't think it's that big of a problem

[@serpentsfist]

Ive been trying to come up with my own solution to this problem and the best idea I have so far is having ques within the level that telegraphs what obstacle is coming up, like a lil triangle symbol on the ground that means a badnik is up ahead

[@PJWooperIsBack]

I absolutely agree with this because every time I am going fast and having fun untill some obstacle or some enemy has to stop me from having a funky time. I don’t wanna go slow in a *SONIC GAME* I WANNA GO FAST MAN!

[@jademonass2954]

THATS IT!! i tried to beat mania about 3 times now and every single time i cant because i get so damn bored, i thought it just wasnt my style of game also, "replaying levels to foresee cheap shots"? i want one full complete playthrough, not 50 "dunno what im doing" i would KILL for a "d move prevention" mod for mania

[@sainteven8181]

Only 2 fixes are really needed. #1 is enemy and road block placement, these are placed on purpose to threw you off #2 is a dynamic camera even in pixel art games is it possible without it really looking bad, if the sprites where designed for this

[@LuucasIckie]

My Solution for the new 2D games: Widescreen (since nowdays we can have that) Extended Camera (that camera present in the SEGA CD version of Sonic CD, that was removed from the 2011 port for some reason, where your camera shifts for the direction you're running), Camera has a fixed position a bit far away from the character and the scenario (in sprite games), just like in Advance Trillogy and Rush Trillogy, and Dynamic Camera for 2.5D/Pre Rendered Model games, it zooms out when you are fast, and it goes back to the original position when you slow down, I liked that idea

[@lpfan4491]

>Feature I wished for in Sonic for my entire life removed from 2011 remake Whitehead bad Kappa

[@jonathanflanagan1504]

On one hand, the camera shifting slightly ahead of sonic to give more view of what's ahead at faster speeds would be nice for gameplay. One the other, the dopamine from finding a spot where you go so fast that Sonic outruns the camera feels so good.

[@Wepospalient]

Honestly, yeah, this is something I find really find drags the fun factor down quite a bit in some of the older sonics. Unless you already know the level ahead of time, you're gonna get blindsided a lot.

[@Gaia_BentosZX5]

One way to go about this is to resize the player sprites to about the size of an average castlevania sprite. Castlevania, especially Symphony of the Night, already figured out this problem because most of the time, players are going to be "wavedashing" throughout the game, at a similar breakneck pace as a Sonic the Hedgehog title. While in the castle, you have fewer enemy encounters than on a platformer. The solution would also just simply... Reduce the amount of potential hazards where you would gain speed. I think Sonic's PvP modes almost had it!

[@perinia]

I think a good idea would be to have "warning signs" show up on the UI pointing to hazards off screen, like how generations has floating signs warning you of a bottomless pit, or the Onett stage in Smash Bros. warning you of a car coming to ram you. You could definitely tweak that system to activate earlier at different speeds and prioritize certain hazards over others if there are multiple.

[@doughnuthead8757]

I like how the Rivals games did 2D. Seeing what's ahead of you.

[@OneAndOnlyDanky]

I think the biggest problem is just that Sonic is in the center of the screen rather than to one side, I really don’t know why they didn’t do that it’s such an easy fix and combined with 16:9 pretty much fixes the problem in my eyes

[@benji-menji]

After seeing the crash into object part, I feel like I figured it all out. It's not even a problem with 2d specifically; If you go fast, you can't appreciate the view and so you crash to slow you down. Sonic games are self defeating so it makes them hard to develop not unlike chase sequences in horror games as Markiplier would put it.

[@rynobehnke8289]

The root problem is the core idea behind Sonic. You aren't actually suppose to only play through the game ones. Sonic is by his core design all about replaying the stages memorizing all parts that slowed you down, learning all cool short cuts and momentum tricks all to string together the perfect run with the best possible end score. Sonic was designed during a time were save features were still rare in games and its entire core is therefor about being able to quickly replay parts of the game so that a save system isn't necessary as getting back to where you lost is fun do to your improvement since the last time in its own right. How ever in a age were you get like 3 new games per-months is Sonic's core no longer as effective as it was back in 1991 were you got 1 game every 4 months or so.

[@benji-menji]

@@rynobehnke8289 I don't see how that is relevant other than the fact is knowledge can get you past off screen road blocks. However I sometimes take multiple minutes on some levels just to make sure I have 50 rings by the end, so I see what your saying in its own right.

[@fridaynightfunkinpro5739]

I’m pretty sure your supposed to memorise the level design so you can avoid the obstacles

[@Jaylobeans]

Hopefully the rumored 2D boost game coming next year is either Sonic Advance 4 or Sonic Rush 3. I love 2D Sonic!

[@yoyooo2008]

thank god you explained the issue because at the time, I was questioning myself why I don't play 2D games as often as the 3D ones btw love your content

[@HalfHeartHero]

I also find myself going back to the 3D games more and have never really understood why but this video certainly acted as a bit of an epiphany for me! I absolutely do the thing you mentioned where I’ll deliberately slow down and play kinda cautiously because muscle memory and earlier play throughs have taught me that speed = getting hit. I’ve just never clocked that that’s exactly what’s putting me off repeat playthroughs. Very well illustrated point here!

[@yona3271]

Basically speed is a reward if you know what you are doing

[@Mr2Secs]

Dimps already found the answer in Colors DS: Just make better level design. Tho there are fangames that do the shifting camera thing, which is cool.

[@retrocar7761]

Yep, I love these games, but there are so many cheap shots in them, it's the reason why I play the 3D games more, because atleast I can see were I'm going.

[@joeker5208]

It’s so weird that they never fixed this issue. Because the solution is very simple. Just pull the view back (like how CD did) to let better see what’s coming ahead

[@belrumwade4733]

An idea I had was to take the route that NSMBDS took by having the left & right bumpers being able to move the camera at the desired direction, but I do like the solutions given here.

[@sonicphoenix7]

thats such a clever camera feature that i haven’t seen anything else use and it makes me sad

[@WolforNuva]

As soon as you mentioned that it conditions players to go slower I remembered my time playing these games as a kid and realised that's entirely how I played them. In fact that's probably why I used to prefer playing as Knuckles or Tails, and only ever played Sonic if I had to - playing the game slower and with more control over the obstacles ahead just was a more enjoyable experience than trying to go as fast as possible.

[@cpab27]

actually i think this is actually a mecanic from the game for you to learn the level design and thats why rings give you one extra hit and you can recover them easily,the point is that you have to learn the level design to go fast in the level and rings make you invincible to a lot of the traps and enemies so by trial and error you can learn the level design and because of that you beat the level faster the next time you play,actually rings were made for that exact same reason juji naka made the rings so they give you a extra hit because when employes were testing the game they were triyng to go fast without practice and because of that rings give you health

[@Thelilwestern]

The only problem with 2D sonic is that it makes 3D looks like shit in comparison

[@rd_ctrlr5311]

I'm gonna take this chance to advocate for a hand-drawn art style 2D Sonic game, because there a more zoomed-out or even dynamic camera could work really well, allowing you to see far more of the level without sacrificing much in detail. I just think 2D Sonic should evolve just as much as 3D Sonic has, if not even more.

[@JLuisJoni]

I mean, Sonic CD had the extended camera, maybe it'd be best to combine that with the Widescreen of the more recent games/rereleases.

[@zikkeboi]

Thank you! I always thought that this was kind of aggravating, but I didn't dare mention it because 2D Sonic games are the holy grail of the series and as a 2000s kid I had no right to complain about them. I never saw anyone mention this, BUT everyone gave the boost games flack for having the similar issues.

[@ChuckE.CheesesIllinois]

Thanks for the birthday gift Chaonix, i also have this problem too

[@Wiziliz]

That "but you can see it all" mod actually sounds like a super helpful tutorial for newbies/casuals, I might try it out sometime

[@Sharff514]

Sonic CD does this thing where the camera moves more in front of sonic while he runs which is cool. I was actually reminded of freedom planet 2 when you were talking about the idea of a dynamic camera that moves. That game backs up the camera and shows more of the level when its necessary. Its suggested but its optional, and you can zoom out the camera manually in the settings if you want. Freedom planet also does this thing with its enemies where you don’t get hit by them unless they actually attack you. Now I know this isn’t necessarily a solution because 2D Sonic has never really worked like that before so the change would be a little weird. But its just a general fix that indie speed based platformers do now

[@Endersgoob]

chaomix: the 2D sonic problem Enders: It exists?

[@lhorenzomoran2002]

The thing about 2D sonic is that speed SHOULD be taken as a reward. In levels like chemical plant, it’s gets really speedy but sonic is still a platformer, which is why things like the famous chemical plant water comes from. Also in aquatic ruin, if you take the higher path, it’s harder, but you can skip the water parts and is hella speedy.

[@BareBandSubscription]

Yeah, but that’s not fun. Sonic was sold on speed. It was the defining marketing hook for Sega’s “blast processing” gimmick. The problem was that Sonic Team had no idea how to design an entire 2D platformer around really fast movement, so they just experimented, cut corners, and ultimately compromised the whole point. Speed was not supposed to be a reward earned through memorization or what have you; it was supposed to be the whole point of the game, and truthfully Sonic is never better or more fun than when he’s going fast. I shouldn’t have to earn that. It’s like saying jumping is a reward in Mario games.

[@joaonitro5149]

Sonic Adventure 2 has the same issue of enemies just appearing in front of you, and the reaction time required is EVEN FASTER than the 2d Sonic games. In literally all of the examples in your video, it's possible to avoid the hazards, even if you're a newbie. Meanwhile in Sonic Adventure 2, you literally can't avoid shit without knowing it is there. Even in the beloved City Escape, there's that part where a robot just fucking appears in front of you.

[@jackparslow5283]

Well a option for 2 and 3 is just get the chaos emerald asap and use super.

[@HedgehogY2K]

10:04 CORRECTION-240x160 pixels, it's a perfect 3:2 aspect ratio... Pretty problematic considering DVDs only use that aspect ratio for re-stretching (anamorphic) purposes. GBA converted movies would have to be 240x135 (if odd numbers are even allowed), and that's just 1.85 movies. most movies are even wider, smaller on an already small screen, good thing the only thing I mastered is the 2004 Spongebob movie, that took 200+MB video/117MB 8 bit stereo (SRS Circle Surround) on a single 1GB CF card.

[@elmemearana]

I confess that, much of the time, I didn't have this very issue from obstacle reaction in 2D Sonic games when I gave my first try on them in the mobile collection. They were annoying if I just wanted to play the game normally, although, with the time I should have with the same, this problem doesn't bother me anymore. But, say whatever you want from 3D ones, I agreed that they improvised in vision angle and picture size, making the player have a great gambling experience in your own. That's something I could probably accept the team make for nowaday 2D games according to their hardware limitations in 16 bits.

[@eex5016]

MOMAZOS PETER kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2SUfmBubtp9irs

[@loweni7460]

This has always been an issue for me concerning 2D sonic and in my opinion I think 2D sonic needs a drastic change from the ground up 2D sonic has been using the same formula since 1991 many 2D platformers have come and gone and innovated yet 2D sonic remains the same with the same glaring issues I remember a video discussing this very topic of redesigning 2D sonic while back the channel escapes me but he made some very good points including increasing the fov, changing the physics, and gameplay mechanics and even getting rid of or drastically changing the ring system because it's redundant if you have infinite continues

[@JustJohn43]

What you call an issue is a deliberate game design choice that encourages players to grow their hippocampus ;)

[@nyhtfall1969]

i think this explains why I recently struggled on my revisit to the 2D games as much as I love them you really hit the nail on the head with ur points great stuff all around

[@Joshua-wo2ey]

I understand the argument but imo this comes from a misunderstanding of the classics appeal. The point of these games is that consistent speed is the reward for memorizing the level and mastering the physics, it’s not supposed to be a given like many 3D games. Getting hit by an unexpected obstacle is (for the most part) a non-issue thanks to the ring system being super forgiving. It becomes a problem when there’s too many unreactable obstacles or instant deaths like bottomless pits. This issue only exists with poor level design, it’s not inherent to the camera.

[@lukebytes5366]

That is of course until you try and get all the chaos emeralds.

[@anchofucc7400]

He's not denying or misunderstanding the appeal at all though. Consistent speed can still be a reward without the game only ever giving you it in crumbs on a first playthrough, which is what the earlier 2D titles did. It's hard to say that it's appealing to new players, especially nowadays. The games can reward skill and memory without making it feel like you're playing a much slower game just because it's your first time.

[@Joshua-wo2ey]

@@anchofucc7400 The better designed 2D games (2, 3, and Mania) are still fast even on the first playthrough, but you’re definitely right in the case of the other games. I’d argue 1 and CD really aren’t that great for this exact reason, while the Advance/Rush games suffer from the small screen size

[@Brabbs]

If you drew that thumbnail thats hella impressive

[@Hutch2Much]

iirc, Sonic CD would slightly pan the camera to whatever way you were facing, which was a lifesaver

[@Breeze926]

This is exactly why I can't play any version of these games that isn't on widescreen anymore.