Chaos Knights and Battle Shock in Warhammer 40k

I can now field a full 2000 point Chaos Knights list thanks to ‪@denofimagination‬ so I wanted to showcase them all. This also gives me the perfect opportunity to talk about battle shock and whether it's a thing or not.
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[@franciscraft4541]

Winters is correct. Battle shock is rooted in a great idea, but it's implemented without any real teeth. One huge change that would benefit the rule, any unit that is battleshocked at the start of a players command phase needs to pass a test to stop being battleshocked. There are rules that battleshock enemy units, but they don't matter the moment your opponent gets their turn

[@denofimagination]

Always happy to be working with you! :D

[@standarddeviation7963]

The chains over the doors... Either the pilots don't want to be in there or we don't want the pilots to be out of there.

[@91elpiris]

Battleshock does not recover automatically at the start of the turn, as easy as that. You have to test again until you pass it. Boom, suddenly if you fail you do not score primaries and it's a HUGE deal. A couple of days ago I was playing a game and failed 3 battleshocks due to casualties and lost control of 3 primary objectives, and it was impactful. But BS tests forced during your turn make no difference because they just get shrugged off at the beginning of turn (right before when it matters, scoring primaries).

[@jonny_kung]

I might be wrong (someone correct me if I am). But the forged in terror aura procs if an enemy unit within 12" is BELOW it's starting strength, NOT half strength. Meaning you only need to destroy 1 model in, say, a unit of 5 space marines and they'll need to take a battleshock test in your opponents command phase, so long as they are within 12". For this reason, it's actually pretty decent, however I do agree that because it's an aura, it's less impactful than what it could be if, say, the aura simply didn't exist but all the other rules remained.

[@strigoi_guhlqueen8355]

As a chaos knight Main this is wounderfull news. I just wish the battleshock was more impactful.

[@imp3ri3x93]

Winters, recently added a Chaos knight Rampager into my 119th Warhost Word Bearers. Great fun and carnage 🔥📖

[@ethanwesthoff7444]

Here are my thoughts. The battleshock mechanic plays well into the fact that we will obviously always have a lower model count so potentially making enemy units OC0 on objectives will help us stay in the primary game. Additionally it’s mentioned that it would be difficult to force battleshocks on turn one or two, but if you spread around a few havoc launchers and tick off a wound here and a model there, you are putting multiple units below starting strength. Then once you get within 12” you are forcing a battleshock test at -1 because of the detachment rule and army rule working together. If it happens to be a crucial target of some kind and they happen to fail you may also spend 1CP on Pterrorshades. Imagine an enemy Leman Russ. You shoot your havoc launcher and get just one wound through. Then next you move in and force a battleshock test next round. If it fails chance for up to six mortals but let’s say 50/50 so three. That’s four wounds on this tank that is also now battleshocked. Then you tank shock it with a Karnivore for up to 14 chances at more mortal wounds and get 5-6. So we’re talking 9-10 wounds on a 13 wound tank BEFORE you even get in to combat. Not to mention you can use Pterrorshades multiple times. If they fail battleshock three times you can use it all three of those times. Overall if you play it right, your opponent should be legitimately fearful of failing their battleshock tests and straight up losing a tank/monster or making a battleline unit all useless to deny crucial primary.

[@christiankoppang8296]

I think here are a few ideas for battle shock: can only do one of the following: shooting, moving or charging. Cannot fallback. Worsen the battle shock of non character units by 1, if the warlord dies, all units must take a battle shock test. If you fail two battleshock tests that unit is no longer combat effective and removed as casualties.

[@GutzMcStabby]

I play deathguard BECAUSE of the End of all Things. Was so sad with 10th edition (finished painting my last model about a week before 10th) but i've been happy with the new detachment rules. After Morty getting killed 3 games in a row (in one night) by Magnus while he was hitting/wounding on 2s despite my -1 to hit aura, I decided I would make room for a Desecrator. I've only played 2 games with it, but both times its felt extremely impressive. I was (admittedly) lucky enough to walk up and within range of the enemy Be'Lakor's aura, and 1-tapped him from full wounds. Then I charged a Lord of Change (tank shocked for the pretty much guaranteed 6 wounds) which I killed after 2 rounds of melee fighting. Lived through the game after breaking the Daemon army's back. 2nd game, faced a Space Marine army (using Anvil) which had 3 Gladiator Lancers, Desolation Marines, Eradicator Marines and Centurians. I (again admittedly) got really lucky with my saves, and it lived the whole game only being down to 6 wounds. By turn 3, my opponent spent so much trying to kill it, that I had only lost a single plague marine, a Blight Hauler, and some spare wounds around the table.

[@DiceDweeb16]

I love the lighter highlights around the chaos stars on the chasis. They really made them look like they're almost a 3D sculpt/decal. It really makes the iconography pop.

[@redrumssam5888]

Hey Chaos Knight Player here. Battleshock is very strong, specially on us. I build my lists tailored around getting battleshock as often as possible taking skull canons that forces battleshock tests after rolling at least 1 hit, and sometimes blue horrors, forcing enemies to take battleshock tests at -2. It's really strong against combo based armies, shutting down strategems. Another thing is that when you do a battleshock test it triggers other strategems, like our Pteroshades strategem forces a mortals and healing equal to them. Take a Lancer or Rampager with Lord of Dread Enhancement, forcing battleshock at the start of any fight phase, allowing us to have our 6+ FNP strat become a 5+ FNP.

[@stephenneal9526]

Any more hints on how to use battle shock with chaos knights

[@redrumssam5888]

@@stephenneal9526 it's mostly just list building, and directing as many tests as possible.

[@Y_KTM]

in my opinion there is nothing that screams warhammer more than space marines advancing in a line and in their backfield is a knight striding along! like in the artwork! btw i think that knights should be able to use their rules when they are souped in, but only knights into other armies.

[@ed8869]

Awesome, i could look at your knights all day, thanks Winters!

[@blackdow9581]

They look awesome. Looking forward to seeing them in battle.

[@patrickrowley3821]

Canis Rex with a Custodes list just wrecks!

[@kylephaneufmusic]

I use a Knight Paladin because it seems more fair if my opponent wasn’t expecting a knight. The guns are very strong so by giving it a melee weapon you handicap yourself a bit for the betterment of the game.

[@Lamthesavender]

but also reaper chainsword go brrrrrt

[@kylephaneufmusic]

@@Lamthesavenderit sure do

[@smalwex]

Was literally considering adding a knight to my chaos or grey knights. This came out just in time to conivnce me i need more plastic

[@wheekwarrior1406]

I feel like the battleshock never goes off when you want it. Even when it does it doesn't do anything because if a unit is battleshocked it already isn't a threat. The large chaos knights got punished for the imperial knight's sins so they are all super overcosted except maybe the rampager. The only list that do good are the 14 wardog lists, and because they do good GW will probably se them as perfectly balanced and will keep it this way.

[@thingwithteeth]

The battleshock rules are definitely lacking in terms of power, but I like that GW is exploring different dimensions of mechanics. The aura of terror around chaos knights is super flavorful and all it needs is a glow-up from a dataslate update- either an improvement to battleshock itself or another aura rule like Death Guard got a few weeks ago.

[@otisred7848]

I think one way to fix battle shock would be that to recover from being battle shock to have to pass a battle shock test and a -1 to the roll to make it harder to pass. That should also stack with the chaos knight bonus of -1 to the test. That would make the chaos knights faction rule better.

[@desertofzin]

It's a beautiful job that they've done. is the "face" custom or part of the kit?

[@Amorim40k]

oh helllllllll yes, can't wait to see CK on the channel!

[@patray860]

I’ve used the Knight Abominant with my 1k sons and 2 vortex beasts. Nice synergy keeping them overlapping and using their ability to deal mortal wounds in moving. It’s not super game altering but it was fun to use

[@richarddixon1450]

All GW need to do. Is add in regroup. If you are Battleshocked in your opponents turn. You need to check if you regroup in your own command phase. Would then make moral targeting strategies and lists much more effective. (Reivers could actually get used in marines!)

[@Orlunu]

Battle shock is incredibly dependent on things like matchup (which is bad) and often extremely low impact. Both previous morale systems (running away and losing wounds) were really more impactful and less janky, and it's kinda just a shame that the oldest system is the best one that's been tried and for some reason they won't return towards it.

[@grumpycup4762]

I think the issue was that yes; The previous system was impactful, but it felt awful. It was just an unfun mechanic. - Great you decimated my unit and now that it's done, even more will run away because fk you. Generally, morale (as in breaking in fear and running away) doesn't suit almost any warhammer faction, and so getting rid of that made sense in a lot of ways. However, I do agree that the new system has pretty big issues. It needs another rework that's not so matchup dependent, and has a higher impact when you do get it through. I like it having "staged" effects. Where it get progressively worse. That helps when balancing it. You can ensure certain faction that rely on Battleshock to REALLY hammer it home into the more dire stages, whereas other factions stay more in the initial stages. An issue is that it resets too often too, so whatever benefit you reap from it is quickly remedied. IDK, I think there's a way to make it good, but it requires more work.

[@bericgarrett3282]

So, battleshock: My experience with it is forgetting my Shokk Attack Gunz cause a test most of the time, and when I do remember, it does not matter. Similarly, forgetting Shadow In The Warp and it not mattering that much. It relies too much on your opponent getting lucky, and is always going to be compared to old leadership tests which were a sliding scale of difficulty. Painting however, Winters, don't disparage yourself. You paint how you want to, how it works for you, and you do it damn well. I regularly get so many compliments on my ork hordes and they're generally, a contrast and a wash for the skin because it's a 'cheat' technique for high-contrast for low-effort. I always encourage people to paint how they want and learn the point where good enough is perfect.

[@jimbusher5895]

I have a knight for my Ad Mech army, some baby knights for my Grey Knights and some Brigands for my Death Guard

[@otisred7848]

Chaos knights are my main army and I have 4000 points. When I run my World Eaters I normally add in 3 brigands. The trick to running pure chaos knights right now is not to count on the faction or detachment rules (because they suck) and just focus on your damage output and your ability to have good board control with an all wardogs list

[@traitorouskin7492]

Flipping heck! Those murderous war machines are beautiful! 😊

[@georgereed1568]

Battle shock from Chaos knights should last 2 Game turns. That would make it better. Plus, some shooting attacks from range that forces a battle shock would be useful, or an enhancement that adds that ability to a knight.

[@tomkara1090]

I main Chaos Knights in 10th and I love them. Yes the rule is situational but their models are great and they have great rules. I believe that it should force a Battleshock test in both players command phases to make it more impactful and have change the modifier so dogs give a -1 and knights give a -2 and the modifier can stack up to a -2 to the roll. That would definately make it more impactful. Again, however, I am happy with my army

[@F_N_Inquisitor]

I have a simple fix for battleshock. If a unit is battleshocked, it NEEDS to roll to be un-shocked, right now those above 50% wounds don't have to they just auto leave.

[@danielrigione58]

I have been thinking about getting one to play with my space wolves, read a thing about Krom Dragongaze saving a knight from house hawkshroud so they swore an oath to the space wolves which I find cool

[@DiceDweeb16]

I add Chaos knights to my CSM Warbands. I enjoy running House Khymere if the Knights are the faction focus for my lists.

[@thecasualwargamer5195]

My Mrs bought me the Armiger box for my 50th last week, so I'll be adding an Halverin and a Warglaive to my Space Marines. As for Battleshock, I covered this in a video myself, but I don't think it is strong enough. It doesn't occur often enough or have too big a negative effect.

[@domagojkrizic9572]

Thinking of adding the new big knight cerastus with a spear to my Thousand Sons. It's definitely a better idea to just run Magnus, but I think the knight looks just so much cooler

[@tylerjensen8383]

Chaos Knights is my main army - definitely not as flexible and synergistic as they were at the end of 9th, which were some of the best rules GW has ever come up with (yes, I’m biased) but they are still quite strong. I think battleshock as a mechanic is still undertuned, but our detachment ability actually pushes it into dangerous territory. It’s less impactful into Ld6 armies and Tyranids, but if you get a lot of your units close to the enemy lines, and start damaging things, they will start to fail battleshock. I had a game into imperial guard recently where I barely killed anything in BR1, but I pushed my knights up the field as close as I could, and because so many enemy units were damaged, my opponent failed battleshock on at least 5 units. From there it snowballed and I was able to kill over half of his army in one devastating turn. It’s not the strongest set of faction rules, but because we have great datasheets, we make up for it.

[@CeeJay94]

What a beauty! 😍

[@wintersSEO]

It really is!

[@T4ctica]

Its subtract 1 per each chaos knight. Lot of little knights moving 12 inches create lots of -1 bubbles

[@goforitpainting]

Really cool.

[@chally2mbt12]

please do one of your imperial titans duking it out with another knight for a battle report

[@wittletheguy]

I actually recently started word bearers just so I could play with my knights. Run a knight instead of a tank. Knights as their own army always made games feel really short and fast one way or the other. So they just kind of sat on the shelf unless we want to play a particularly short game. And their current rules are just bad. Your many army rule only happens sometimes and when it dose happen, it only stop your opponent from doing things sometimes. They need an army rule that dose something most of the time. Honestly, I think we could do away with leadership mechanics. Back in 8h/9th most armies had a way to ignore it, or squad sizes were low enough that it didn't matter. Or you were playing ork boys and you lost a 30 blob squad because 5 boys died. It was too all or nothing. Current battle shock is nice in that most armies all care about it equally. But it still really dosnt do all that much in the grand scheme of things. Its more an annoying rule to remember, than anything else.

[@Pioprok]

Battleshock: better than previously, still not as impactful as GW intended. Which is probably good - not getting to play with your models is almost never a good thing, and if you die/can’t do stuff due to failed battleshock roll, that’s not fun. Personally I’m fine with battleshock not being a huge factor - some more detachments/combos based on battleshock would be cool though

[@TeutonicKnight92]

So I’ve been playing more heresy recently and boy, do you feel the difference in moral systems. I’ve seen games won or lost based on a unit getting pinned, forced to fall back, or being swept in close combat. I think some that would fix battleshock and make it more meaningful is have the unit that fails move towards their deployment and treat it has having fell back from close combat

[@PellyG138]

isn't battle shock happen if the enemy unit is below starting strength. so any damage they have to do a test. Not half

[@PellyG138]

forged in terror aura. and if the unit is strength 1, if it lost a unit it must make the roll.

[@dominicbenson3246]

I think as a mechanic to do morale, battle shock is fine. But army rules based on it seem a little weak compared to things like oath of moment

[@lilv3966]

My play group has two demon players and battleshock tests just heal them

[@danmiller4242]

I’ve played chaos knights for about 3 months now and I can with 100% certainty say that the army rule is completely pointless. Even playing guard they rarely fail battle shock as the opponent only has to roll average to pass and the buffs we get from it only happening turn 3 onwards just makes it even more of a joke. It’s a completely unreliable rule and honestly any other detachment ability would be a benefit 😂

[@chaosclg]

I think battleshock should give more debuffs like that unit is now - 1 strength or - 1 to save, i know there are rules that give you these ir similar but battleshock isn't a worry 9 times on 10

[@tasteofwang81]

Tyranids battle shocked my whole army turn 3 and cost me the game

[@WraithRaider]

I think battleshock would be fine if you stayed battleshocked until you “rally” - which would be another test. In terms of IK/CK you’re overlooking stratagems. IK we’re doing very well at the start of the edition, but CK are now doing better…

[@TeutonicKnight92]

Also where is the lore, who are these fine gentlemen allied to the End of All Things, should we expect another story time?

[@benjaminvanduyne3787]

Battleshock happens in my games but rare. I really feel it is just too easy to pass that makes it be a non factor. I'd raise all leadership. Guardsmen at 7 and Custodes at 6 is silly

[@_PickleNick]

Battleshock should have the same as it is now but any unit which is battleshocked can only snap fire (hit on 6s) and if in melee, only hit on 6s because they're shocked. That way you might consider a desperate break out

[@Buffaluffasaurus]

Something more punishing like that is needed, although I think that might almost be too punishing (although it is much more like how Heresy treats things like Pinning). Even something like a Battleshocked unit being -1 BS and WS, and being unable to benefit from any buffs from characters, warlord traits or legions traits would be huge. Shocked Space Marines being unable to benefit from Oath of Moment would represent a significant nerf, along with the lower Ballistic and Weapon skill.

[@thomasmcharles9319]

I feel you, as a Drukhari player, having our detachment rule as gain a token if an archon is in your list is shite. Whereas other armies have actually strong useful things. Similar to how you describe how useless chaos knights rules are.

[@tim9241]

Battleshock works better since the dataslate nerfed the auto pass. Choas Knights actually have a higher win rate than Imperial Knights now, and tyranids best unit is actually a battleshock focussed unit! Most competitive tyranid lists run 3 neurolictors these days…

[@Tehstampede]

The fact that a unit automatically recovers from battleshock in your command phase pretty much ruins the mechanic in my opinion. I'm honestly not a huge fan of how they changed Leadership and Ld tests in 10ed; the previous system that had been in the game since 3rd edition was perfectly fine and made a lot more sense. Also, it gave Sisters players a good outlet for low Miracle Dice. The change I'd make to our faction mechanic is that you get a baseline always-on version like Imperial Knights do, and then get a boosted effect from things being battleshocked. For instance, a baseline +1 to Wound against something within our terror radius, and then maybe Lethal Hits or Sustained Hits against anything that is battle shocked within our terror radius; this would probably require War Dogs and big knights to have different terror ranges 12" for the big knights and 6"-9" for the War Dogs. That would make it so people really don't want to get close to our knights The Chaos Knight faction has absolutely godawful internal balance right now. You are actively discouraged from taking any of the big knights in a 2000pt game because they just don't justify their points cost; what a single Desecrator does can be done much better by 3 Brigands for only 30 more points. I always get excited to see a Chaos Knights player win or podium at a tournament until I read the list and see yet another 13 War Dog with daemon allies list.

[@deleted4577]

It feels like you have to work way to hard to pull of battleshock. People are using 'nyds as an example of when it can be powerful which, true, it can - however there's a huge caveat that you need to run a highly skewed list of deathleaper, neuro lictors, haruspexes etc. to have a chance of pulling it off... Anyone running a "balance" 'nyd list is still gonna be struggling to trigger battle shock, even with SitW and even with the neruotyrant on the field.

[@banishedpest115]

Fix the numbers a bit (virtually everyone passing on a 6 regardless of circumstance is lame) and make it so you dont auto recover at the start of your turn and battleshock is meaty. Geedubs probably didnt do this because they didnt want to immediately make this new mechanic too strong and alienate people.

[@Synaesthesie12]

Battleshock is, at the moment, just an unnecessary mechanic most of the times. Never had a game where it mattered. I like to use 2 War Dog Huntsman for my World Eaters at 2k points. They are fast, have a good OC, support my troops in CC and they can shoot. So I have at least some weapons that can deal DMG at a distance.

[@stu_gibson]

I do indeed add a Chaos Knight now and then into my Night Lord's - painted in House Lucaris colours, so it fits in well. It's name is Lady Midnight

[@patray860]

I think battle shock would be better if it affected your ability to shoot or fight. So you lose objective secured and you are -1 to hit and shoot. U r shocked and less affective. Maybe allow strategies but they cost one more … just thoughts I’m sure I will be crucified

[@000NULL]

Call me controversial, but I would prefer above average datasheets over army rules. Bring up the CK units that are meh, stop increasing the costs, just make them better on the sheets.

[@nuckythompson8041]

The detachment rule is trash unfortunately. You can’t play around it because it’s unreliable at best. Big knights are just not worth the points since towering was removed. Not being able to overwatch kills play too. GW have relegated viable lists to all dogs, which have been out of stock for nearly a year. Absolutely ridiculous, but that’s another discussion lol

[@koelkast9]

Imperial knights are trash at the moment though. We got gutted after the balance datasheet.

[@leostarrs-cunningham8576]

Battleshock is just not as effective as it should be to live up to its hype. On top of that it doesnt trigger enough. Just my experience so far.

[@alexneal9534]

Battleshock is a bit of a nothing really. I'd fix it by not having it turn off. Once your shocked that's it.

[@have14theroad]

No, battle shock is either not effective, or just flat out forgotten.

[@AllThingsCubey]

If you think battleshock isn't significant you must not have faced Tyranids recently.

[@deleted4577]

It's not insignificant but even stacking battle shocks it can be swingy - unless you're running a heavy skew battle-shock focussed list it's gonna always come down to a coin flip

[@AllThingsCubey]

@@deleted4577 All the most competitive Tyranid lists are running 3x Neurolictors. Nids can make a single unit take 5+ battle shock tests in a row, in the same turn, if they need to. This is hugely powerful because you WILL ABSOLUTELY fail one of them eventually, allowing Nids to tactically remove the best stratagems from your army in key turns. Losing key overwatches, phantasms, armour of contempt, profane zeal, etc loses games, and the best Tyranid lists and players can just abuse their battleshock rules to turn off your army and murder it all whilst it stands there helpless

[@deleted4577]

@AllThingsCubey I'm not disagreeing with you but, as you say, the most competitive lists are running 3 neurolictors to achieve that level of success (plus most likely a deathleaper) For people playing casually with fun lists who dont wanna have to go buy multiple expensive models to shoehorn in, battleshock is still pretty swingy for a faction that centered around it I appreciate you're looking at it from a competitive point and I know it's fun to min max, but a lot of folk out there don't like playing that way

[@AllThingsCubey]

@@deleted4577 I can confirm it's not fun to be on the recieving end. I can respect the position that at a casual level, battle shock is underwhelming, but that's largely because... Casual games are more about killing, and competitive is more about movement and scoring, which stratagems and OC have a great effect over. Chaos Knights are competitively strong right now. Imperial Knights are competitively garbage and one of the weakest and saddest armies in the game. It's curious to hear winters saying Imperial gets all the nice things and Chaos doesn't when there was almost a 20% winrate divide between them last week in favour of Chaos Knights. I'd say be careful what you wish for with battle shock because when it goes hard, such as with competitive Tyranids, it feels like your army has been hit with an EMP and you can't do anything. I can see Chaos Knights becoming extremely toxic to play against if they manipulated battle shock harder than they already do, and then GW would nerf the heck out of them the same way they ruined Imperial Knights last month.

[@deleted4577]

@AllThingsCubey I'd happily trade the oppressive battleshock abilities the meta 'nyd units have and the spore mine / ripper secondary spam for better internal balance While it's hard for gw to balance these things it feels like they just slap these abilities on new releases to plug gaps in the codex and it fucks the internal balance even further On the competitive scene, the people winning with 'nyds are admitting that they're basically crutching on the units you're talking about, and nobody wants that, it doesnt feel good for your opponent to face the same oppressive spam ever matchup and it makes your own faction incredibly boring to play if you're forced between always bringing these models or being on that back foot And in the end the meta is always gonna be the extreme end of the spectrum, and it's gonna take a lot of time to iron out the kinks of what we are very early days in 10th

[@Prometheus_Williams]

Absolutely disgusting.

[@stuartfields9177]

It's the removal of overwatch on titanic that really irks me about knights. I have played knights for a while and know full well how 'okay' they are in overwatch but also just how many units in the game can just pop up from deepstrike, shoot and / or charge the knight into the ground with ease and the knight can no longer respond at all. Oh and battleshock is pointless. It's a nothing mechanic that rarely effects a game. In my opinion. Personally I would try and reflect the nature of the rule, you are in shock by the battle raging around you and the losses you just took. Therefore your movement should be halved and you only hit on 6's in both ranged and Melee. The unit should also stay battleshocked until the end of the following turn.